The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

1979 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
July 24, 1979: William Ivory, CID (Part 2)

 

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q To your knowledge, Mr. Squires did not regularly appear at crime scenes for photographic purposes; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q To your knowledge, Mr. Squires had never photographed a fingerprint before?
A To my knowledge?
Q Yes?
A Yes, sir.
Q To your knowledge, Mr. Squires had never photographed blood spots before?
A To my knowledge, I could not say at that time. May I make a correction to that?
Q Go right ahead.
A As I said, I don't recall -- I find it difficult to draw the line when he worked with me before or after the investigation in the MacDonald household. We did photograph other homicide scenes with him that were kind of bloody, so no matter which side it was on, I know that at least at some other time, he did photograph a homicide scene.
Q But he was not a photographer assigned to the CID?
A That is correct, sir.
Q You had such a man in Sergeant Alexander?
A That is correct.
Q Who presumably had received some training in crime scene photography?
A I don't know of his formal training in crime scene photography.
Q All right, who told Mr. Squires what to photograph in the living room?
A I did, sir.
Q Is that where you started?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now the plan was going to be the same as before?
A Yes.
Q Starting at the doorways and going in a clockwise fashion around the room?
A That is correct.
Q Did you point out to Mr. Squires the things you wanted photographed?
A Yes.
Q And you had been shown here, in court, a number of photographs by the Government, and you have identified them?
A That is correct.
Q Are those all the color photographs that were taken by Mr. Squires of the living room while you were there?
A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
Q There are none that you know of or that you recall seeing that have not appeared in this display here at court?
A Not that I can recall.
Q You were present when he was taking those pictures, weren't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were pointing out to him the various things, that you wanted recorded, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q After Mr. Squires took the pictures of the living room, what did you do next in regard to photographing?
A Went into -- all right, he photographed the living room and dining room at about the same time.
Q Yes?
A Because they are a combined area. We went to the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald and photographed that room. From there to the master bedroom. The east bedroom -- we photographed that bedroom -- in which lay the body of Colette MacDonald, and from there to Kimberly's room, photographing that.
It was about that time that we were interrupted by the arrival of Dr. Neal.
Q And Dr. Neal was the doctor who was called to make the pronouncement of death in this case?
A That is correct.
Q When Dr. Neal arrived, had Mr. Squires finished taking all the photographs you had planned for him to take at that particular juncture?
A No, sir.
Q Which photos had he not yet taken?
A Perhaps finishing the photos in Kimberly's room; photographing the bathroom; the kitchen; exterior of the house; hallway.
Q All right. In the interior of the house, you say one of the bedrooms. Which one was that again?
A He had not finished with, I believe at that time, with the bedroom of Kimberly MacDonald.
Q Had he finished Kristen's bedroom?
A Yes.
Q Had he finished the master bedroom?
A Yes, as I recall.
Q It was just Kimberly's bedroom was incomplete but started?
A Yes, sir.
Q There was still the bathroom to be done and the hall closet; is that right?
A The bathroom, the hallway, and the closet -- well, the hallway -- the kitchen.
Q How about the utility room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Had he taken those or had he not?
A No, he had not.
Q Then, there were some exterior photos you wanted?
A Let me correct that and say that he took some photos of the utility room while photographing the master bedroom.
Q Were you present with him the entire time that he was taking pictures?
A Yes, sir.
Q When Dr. Neal came, what did you do as far as Mr. Squires -- leave him in some room or take him into the living room?
A I believe we went to the living room and then Mr. Connolly, myself, and Dr. Neal proceeded down through the house.
Q All right. I want to show you some photographs.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, indulge me for one moment, please.

(Pause.)

MR. SEGAL: Now, if I may have four photographs marked for defense identification, please.

(Defendant Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14 were marked for identification.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me hand up to you if I may, Mr. Ivory, four photographs, and ask whether you have ever seen them before and if you can tell us who took those photographs?
A You have a duplicate here.
Q Let me see that, please. They certainly do look that way. Why don't we withdraw one of these. The remaining three pictures that I have left with you, have you ever seen them before?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q Taking them by the numbers that are marked on the back -- that is the Defendant Exhibit Number -- the one that has the date 7/24/79 written next to it -- will you please give us the number of the photograph that you are looking at and tell us first of all who took the photograph?
A It was taken in sequence as Defendant Exhibit 12.
Q Yes.
A That appears to be the photograph taken by Mr. Page.
Q Who is Mr. Page?
A He is the photographer from the crime lab.
Q Do you know when that photograph was taken?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will you tell us, please, on what date and approximately at what time?
A It was taken probably early afternoon -- shortly after the arrival of the photographic team or the crime scene team from the crime laboratory in Fort Gordon.
Q On February 17, 1970?
A That is correct, yes, sir.
Q How about the next one?
A I would say the same, sir. This is Number 13 -- no, Number 14, and also, Number 13. All three of them appear to be photographs made by Mr. Page subsequent to the arrival of the laboratory team which would have been late morning or early afternoon of 17 February, 1970.
Q You were present when Mr. Page took those photographs; is that right?
A I was present in the house, yes, sir.
Q Now, I want to show you some additional photographs if you can help us identify them, please.
Mr. Ivory, I would like to show you an additional group of five black and white photographs and ask whether you have ever seen them before and tell us who took those pictures?
A Yes, I have seen these photographs before.
Q Can you tell us first of all who the photographer was who took those black and white photographs?
A It would have been Staff Sergeant Alexander.
Q And would you tell us by using the Defendant Exhibit Numbers on the back what each of those photographs depicts?
A Exhibit 15 is a photograph of the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald after the body had been removed by Dr. Neal. Number 16 is the living room -- a photograph exposed from the front door looking into the living room by the desk, television set, and stereo set. Number 17 is another view from the door looking over towards the hallway and looking over the overturned or upturned coffee table. Number 18 is another view taken from approximately in front of the television set showing the upturned coffee table and the corner of the room up by the couch. Number 19 is a photograph made from the dining room area into the living room area showing the general area between the couch and the coffee table.
Q All right, thank you. Now, the pictures taken by Mr. Page are pictures taken by the photographer who came with his team of persons from the CID laboratory at Fort Gordon, Georgia, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Why did he take this third set of photographs of the crime scene?
A It was decided when it was discussed as to what personnel would be sent up from the Crime Lab that they would send up somebody from each section that would be most likely to have business in processing a crime scene. They sent up a photographer as well as fingerprint men and chemistry experts.
Q Well, would it be fair to say that in 1970, as well as today, that the Crime Lab at Fort Gordon is a fairly busy place?
A Fairly busy place, yes, sir.
Q You had been there because you had been trained at Fort Gordon. You had visited the laboratory; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q They don't have people sitting around not doing anything and twiddling their thumbs; do they?
A That is correct.
Q All right. Having had two sets of photographs made, one of which is, at least, complete, why was it not discussed with Fort Gordon that it was not necessary to take a photographer who might be needed in some other crime in some other case and send him up to Fort Bragg?
A I had no part in those discussions.
Q Who arranged to have the third photographer come up with the team from Fort Gordon?
A Mr. Grebner and I believe the Provost Marshal.
Q Mr. Grebner being --
A (Interposing) Chief of the CID.
Q The CID Chief?
A Correct.
Q He knew, of course, that you already had Mr. Alexander at the scene?
A Correct.
Q You also told him that you called for Mr. Squires; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q But between him and Colonel Kriwanek, somebody made the decision to bring in a third photographer?
A That is correct.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the OBJECTION to any more questions along that line. Go ahead.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q When Mr. Page came to the house to take those pictures, had anything else happened to disturb the crime scene other than Dr. Neal having touched the body of one of the children, and as you told us earlier, moved it slightly, I think is what you said?
A Yes, sir.
Q What else had happened to change the crime scene when he came?
A The bodies had been removed and some physical evidence had been collected.
Q What physical evidence was no longer in place in the living room when Mr. Page came to take the pictures?
A None that I can recall, sir.
Q So, the living room was at least as intact for Mr. Page as it had been for Mr. Alexander; right?
A No, sir, perhaps not.
Q Well, how was it different?
A There were more items of investigative equipment in there. More people had been in there. The bodies, of course, had been removed --
Q (Interposing) Wait a minute. What bodies in the living room?
A The bodies had been removed from the house.
Q All I asked you was how had the living room changed in its appearance as far as the physical evidence was concerned?
A The living room alone?
Q Between the time that Mr. Alexander took a picture and Mr. Page took a picture?
A The clothing had been moved from the stairway to the couch. As I said, some items of investigative equipment had been entered into the house that were not in there previously. We had begun the collection of evidence in other parts of the house, and there were evidence containers and bags in the living room. Other than that specifically, I can't recall at this point.
Q Mr. Ivory, my question was of the things that were in the MacDonald house when you arrived there -- what had changed in the living room other than you say some items of clothing had been moved off of the steps?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT.

THE COURT: Yes, I will SUSTAIN the OBJECTION. I think he answered the question.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, I think he has answered some other question. I would appreciate a final answer on this point.

THE COURT: All right. Let's see what his answer to that was. Nothing had changed except that there were more people there, that the bodies had been removed, that some clothing had been moved from the steps, and some equipment for making investigation had been moved in, and they had started to gather evidence. That seemed, to me, to answer your question. If it did not, please ask it again.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, Your Honor. My unfortunately-worded question should have been put this way.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, of the things that were in the MacDonald house when you arrived, what had been altered in the living room from its original position other than the clothing you have described at the end of the hall stairway which you say was moved onto the sofa?
A I tried to cover that in my other answer, but there were other items introduced into the house which, of course, altered the condition of the room. I can't recall specifically of anything that had been removed from the room at that time. There had been more movement through that room by investigative personnel --
Q (Interposing) That might have disturbed something in there?
A Perhaps.
Q Do you want to stand by that answer?
A Why don't you be a little more specific in your questioning?
Q Is your answer now that the movement of investigative personnel through the house might have moved some of the physical matters that were in the MacDonald living room?
A Yes.
Q All right. What do you have reason to believe was moved by the investigators while this crime scene was being secured so it could be photographed for future time?
A Well, the room had already been photographed. There were items placed on that lounge chair in the living room. It had been moved. I think the hassock had been moved for ease in moving in that general area of the room where there were no items of apparent evidentiary value. Other than that, sir, I cannot recall of any major alterations. Perhaps you can bring something to my mind.
Q What do you call a major alteration?
A Something that would alter materially the crime scene.
Q Anything that belonged to Dr. MacDonald that he said he had on or about or near him at the time of the assault by the assailants, if that had moved would that have been major?
A I would say so.
Q Anything on the sofa where Dr. MacDonald said he was lying when the attack took place, would that have been major?
A I would say so.
Q Anything about the position of the coffee table and the items that had been on or underneath it, would that have been major?
A I would say so.
Q Anything about the flower pot that had been moved, was that in order, would that have been major?
A Again, yes; but again I must restate that the scene had already been photographed.
Q So that once the living room had been photographed by whom did you think it was no longer necessary to worry about the crime scene contents?
A By both Sergeant Alexander and Mr. Squires.
Q And the photographs by Mr. Page weren't there to preserve the crime scene, right?
A That is correct.
Q They were just taken for what purpose?
A To record the crime scene as it was when they arrived.
Q Well, how was that going to help anybody?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Do you know why you'd want photographs of the crime scene after you'd altered it?
A There's no telling what could have been brought out by subsequent photos; there's no telling.
Q Well, it escapes me, Mr. Ivory. I would like for you to explain to me further if your position is that there was no need for further photographs because Mr. Alexander --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION, Your Honor, he has not said that.

MR. SEGAL: May I finish my question?

THE COURT: I'll let him finish the question, then if you have an objection, I'll rule on it then. Start over, please.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q If the photos by Sergeant Alexander and Mr. Squires were meant to tell us how the crime scene looked when the investigators were there, what purpose, if any, if you know, was served by having a third set taken by Mr. Page?
A I didn't see and I don't see what harm it could do.
Q Well, that's not the question that is --
A That's my answer, sir, as best I can answer it.
Q As far as you know, did it serve any affirmative purpose in the investigation, as far as you were concerned, to have a third set of photos?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT. He has answered that question.

THE COURT: No, I don't think he answered that precise question, and that was not the one that you were in the process of objecting to previously. He says -- his answer to a question as to whether there was any useful purpose to be served by additional photographs certainly said, as I recall his testimony, that he didn't see any harm in it. Now the counsel wants to know if he saw any real purpose in it. I'll let him answer, if he has got one.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: Again, I saw no harm in rephotographing the crime scene --

THE COURT: That's not the question.

THE WITNESS: I realize that, sir.

THE COURT: The question is whether or not there was any purpose. Now, I also understood you to say you didn't even make the decision for the news photographer to come up there.

THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.

THE COURT: That was made by somebody else.

THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.

THE COURT: But when he got there, he wants to know in your professional judgment -- certainly from your standpoint -- was there anything else to be served by having the same scene photographed twice?

THE WITNESS: Sir, as I think I said a few answers earlier, there's no telling what could have been brought out of -- by those subsequent photographs, what items that from a slightly different camera perspective may have brought something out that another perspective may have hidden. Again, I saw no harm in the man rephotographing the crime scene, since he had been sent up some hundreds of miles from Georgia to North Carolina to do expressly that -- photograph it.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, is it the purpose of photographing the crime scene to help investigators in reconstructing the crime as they continue their investigation after -- when the crime scene is dismantled?
A Correct, sir.
Q Because eventually items have to be removed from a place, some of it to go to laboratories; right?
A That's correct.
Q Sometimes premises and items are turned over to the people they belong to?
A That is correct.
Q But investigation must go on with some knowledge of the way the scene looked when the investigators got there, is that right?
A That's correct.
Q And I gather from your last answer you thought that Mr. Page's photos might assist because they were taken from different angles and different positions, is that right?
A Correct, sir.
Q And, of course, they would not have been helpful if the things that they were photographing were not in the position that the investigators had originally found them?
A That's correct, sir.
Q So that when the photographs were taken, you had some reason to believe that what Mr. Page was photographing represented the crime scene as you thought it existed?
A I don't think I understand the question, sir.
Q When Page took his pictures you thought he was taking them of the crime scene without substantial alteration?
A No, of course not.
Q I don't understand your answer, sir.
A We know the crime scene had been altered. We know things had been removed, so I cannot say that as a statement of fact, sir.
Q All right, let's take a look at some of the pictures.

MR. SEGAL: I will need a moment, if Your Honor pleases.

(Pause.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, let me show you a photograph, which according to its jacket has been identified as a photograph which has been marked for identification in this case as Government Exhibit 24(b). I ask you to take a look at this photograph, and if you can tell me, please, who took that photograph?
A This photograph was taken by Mr. Squires.
Q Mr. Squires?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did that represent the crime scene as you saw it when you came in, in some part of the MacDonald house?
A Yes, sir.
Q What part of the house was it?
A This is a view from the dining area into a living room in that specific area around the -- between the couch and the coffee table.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, may we ask if it is all agreeable with counsel when showing these photographs to leave them in the jackets, as that is where the sticker is, and I think to take a lot of them out might cause some difficulties.

THE COURT: Right. Well, don't get anything mixed up, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, let me show you the photographs that are marked 23 and 26, Government Exhibits, and ask you to tell us who was the photographer, please, and, if you will, what it represents?
A Sir, I believe these photographs were also taken by Mr. Squires, and show again that area of the living room around the sofa or couch and the coffee table.
Q And do they represent the living room and the items contained in it as you first saw them when you came into the house?
A As best I recall, yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL: If Your Honor pleases, I want to display some of these photographs, if I may, by darkening the courtroom and using this screen and projector I have here.

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, I perceive there may be a difficulty for some members of the jury seeing over this device. If you can, you may have to adjust it. Sorry for the inconvenience.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I want to show you a photograph which is the Government Exhibit 26 first of all. Now may I borrow the pointer that you have used, Mr. Ivory?
A Yes, sir.
Q Thank you. I would like to ask you, and if necessary, if it will help you, you may come down. I am pointing here to some items that are near the sofa on the floor. Do you know what these items are that I am pointing to?
A I think pillows.
Q Would it help you to come down, Mr. Ivory, to examine those?
A Perhaps it would. It is not very clear.

MR. SEGAL: Our problem basically is we cannot dim the lights here without putting out all the emergency lights on two floors.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It's some throw pillows.

THE COURT: Perhaps if he had the original and could refer to the original as he is sitting in the witness chair and as you are pointing, maybe you could do it that way.

THE WITNESS: That would be excellent.

MR. SEGAL: I am not sure we have duplicates of all these photos, Your Honor. I think we will ask you, with Your Honor's permission, to let him stay here. Not all these photographs are available.

THE COURT: This is not a slide, I take it.

MR. SEGAL: No. This is the photograph itself, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now this sofa that appears on the left-hand edge of the screen -- that is the sofa which you had reason to believe where Dr. MacDonald said he was attacked by several attackers on the night that he was wounded and his family was killed. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q A critical part of the crime is seen, is it?
A Yes, sir.
Q These two pillows here on the floor -- do you see them there?
A Yes. I do.
Q Is that the way that they were when you came in the MacDonald house?
A As I recall, sir. I don't specifically remember making a specific observation of those pillows. I have no recollection of them being moved.

MR. SEGAL: All right. I want to show you another picture. I want to show you a photograph that has been marked as Defendant Exhibit 14.

THE WITNESS: May I look at it before you put it in there, please?

MR. SEGAL: Oh, yes. Mr. Ivory has made a useful suggestion, Your Honor. He suggested I let him look at it before we display it.

THE COURT: Suppose you see if you can get your technical difficulties straightened out during the noon recess. We will let the jury retire now and the rest of us will go in a minute or so. Members of the jury, we will come back today at 2:30. Don't talk about the case. We will resume the matinee at 2:30.

(Jury exits at 12:58 p.m.)

THE COURT: we will recess the court in just a moment, so we are not all ready to go just yet. All right, Mr. Coggins, you may recess us now until 2:30.

(The proceeding was recessed at 12:59 p.m., to reconvene at 2:30 p.m., this same day.)


F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 2:30 p.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. In line with our policy of doing everything in duplicate, I see that we have duplicate screens and projectors this afternoon.

MR. SEGAL: We have asked every question twice. We will show every picture twice, Your Honor. Someone suggested that we try a stereo effect, but if I may, with Mr. Ivory, please.

(Whereupon, WILLIAM F. IVORY, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 2:31 p.m. (resumed)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, I want to clarify some identification matters -- photos first and then we will talk about, hopefully, projecting them on the screen. Prior to luncheon break, I showed you two photographs which have been marked as Defendant 11 and Defendant 12. You said to me at that time that they were duplicates; is that right? Do you recall that?
A They appeared to be.
Q A little louder, please.
A I said that they appeared to be.
Q Do you want to look at them, please, and tell whether they are duplicates or not?
A Sir, I see nothing dissimilar in them.
Q I am sorry -- I can't hear you.
A I see nothing dissimilar in them.
Q That leads you to believe they are duplicates of each other? They are duplicate photos?
A It appears to me to be so, yes, sir.
Q All right. We will eventually display these to the jurors. I just want to hold them up. There is a plant on the photo I am holding closest to my body. Can you point that out, please? A plant?
A Yes, right there.
Q Can you point out the plant in the photo closest to you?
A Yes, right there. Oh, I see.
Q What else in the picture is not the same?
A There is a ruler in there.
Q There is a ruler. Now, was the ruler a part of the MacDonald household or was that a ruler introduced by one of the investigators?
A That is a ruler introduced by Mr. Page.
Q By Mr. Page?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you certain that these photos were taken by Mr. Page or by Mr. Squires?
A Sir, in my mind, they were taken by Mr. Page.
Q Don't you have any way of telling which photos were taken by which photographer that you could now find for us and help us identify whose work we are looking at?
A All I can say, sir, is that they appear to be photos taken by Mr. Page.
Q Well, what is it that in your mind helps you to arrive at that conclusion rather than concluding that these are the photos taken by Mr. Squires?
A There is the introduction into that photo on the lower right-hand corner of those evidence tags and evidence collection bags --
Q (Interposing) Well, I see a briefcase or two in the photo?
A That is on the lower left. I am saying on the lower right.
Q Oh, I see. There is a stack of tags over here next to the little case here?
A Yes. And those cases that are again in the lower left and the general look of the photos remind me of those photographs taken by Mr. Page.
Q I see. Well, if we are talking about Mr. Page's photos, then, I need to ask you one or two questions preliminarily. The living room, I believe, was the first room that Mr. Page, the photographer from Fort Gordon, photographed; is that right?
A I don't know, sir.
Q What?
A I don't know that that is true, sir. I don't know, sir.
Q Well, what is your best recollection?
A I did not accompany him when he made the photographic round of the house. I don't know, but I would presume that he did start at the living room.
Q Did some other CID investigator accompany him at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who is that?
A I believe it was Mr. Shaw.
Q What?
A I believe it was Mr. Shaw; S-h-a-w.
Q To your knowledge, did anyone disturb the scene in the living room as far as the materials that belonged to the MacDonald family or had been there before you arrived? Did anyone disturb those before Mr. Page took these pictures?
A Well, as we now know, that flower pot was moved.
Q Yes. At that time, however, this looked like the way you saw the room when you first came into it?
A That is correct.
Q So, other than the fact that we do see some materials that were brought in, so far as the items that were in the MacDonald house when you arrived, this picture more or less looks like the same display?
A Except that the clothing that was on the stairway is now on the end of that couch. That is another indication to me that it is a Mr. Page photo.
Q Subject to that addition, is there anything else that would be different in these photos as between the way they looked when you came in and the way the room looked when Mr. Page took the pictures?
A I can't see any difference, sir.
Q Now, we need to have you identify for us, please, two additional photographs. I want to show you one that has been marked for identification during the luncheon recess as D-21.

MR. BLACKBURN: Mr. Segal, could we see this?

MR. SEGAL: I am sorry. Beg your pardon.

(Defendant Exhibit 21 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I will show you the photograph marked D-21 for identification during our recess and a second one marked D-22 for identification also marked at the recess, and ask you to look at D-21 first. Tell us if you have seen that photograph before and if you know who the photographer was?

(Defendant Exhibit 22 was marked for identification.)

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir; I saw the photograph before.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Just keep your voice up, please.
A Yes, I have seen the photograph before.
Q That photograph was taken by what photographer?
A I believe this was taken by Mr. Squires.
Q And it depicts what area of the house?
A It depicts the area under the window of the living room as seen from that particular location between the couch and the upturned coffee table.
Q All right, now, will you please look at D-22. I ask you whether you have seen that photograph before and if you know who the photographer was?
A Yes, sir; I have seen the photo before, and I do know who the photographer is.
Q Please give us that information now?
A Mr. Squires exposed this photograph.
Q And that was taken at what time in the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald -- that is, what was the sequence of events? What had happened before that or after that photograph that is relevant to understanding it?
A This is prior to the body having been removed by Dr. Neal -- having been moved by Dr. Neal.
Q I see. That is a photo of Kristen MacDonald's body prior to the physician coming in who you said did, in fact, move her somewhat?
A That is correct.
Q All right. If I may have those photographs, please.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, indulge me for one moment, please.

(Pause.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I will have to ask you what is truly the last photograph that I want marked for identification -- it will be D-23.

(Defendant Exhibit 23 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me show you the photograph marked D-23, and ask if you, first of all, have ever seen that photograph before and if you have, do you know who the photographer was who took it?
A I have seen the photograph before, and I am not sure if this was exposed by Mr. Squires or Mr. Page.
Q Do you see any of the photographer's paraphernalia in that picture?
A I see what appears to be part of a tripod in the dining room area, which would indicate to me that it was probably Mr. Page but I am not sure.
Q It might have been Mr. Squires using his 35-millimeter camera also?
A Except that I don't recall him having a tripod with him.
Q All right. You are uncertain then as to who the photographer is?
A Indications are that it was taken by Mr. Page, but I am not certain, sir.

MR. SEGAL: All right. If I may, please. Thank you. If Your Honor pleases, with the court's permission at this time, we will attempt what I hope will be a successful showing of these photos, and if not -- if the clarity is not adequate to assist the jury, then we will simply go back to more conventional means and publish the photos individually and directly to the jury.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I think, Mr. Ivory, we will probably need you to come on down here so that you can perhaps discuss this with us. All right now, Mr. Ivory, in this photograph which is marked D-11 will you describe to us what are the items that are located here on the end of the sofa where Dr. MacDonald says he was attacked and engaged in a struggle?
A Sir, this is a multi-colored afghan. These are the items of some child's apparel which were laying on the stairway just next to the couch, and there are two throw pillows there on the couch.
Q Do you know how the red clothing that you said was on the steps got to be on the sofa at the time this photo was taken?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Tell us how it got there.
A Mr. Grebner moved it from the stairway to the couch after it had been photographed in place.
Q When he moved it, did he use tongs like you described to us yesterday when you were describing how you recovered certain evidence?
A I have no idea, sir. I did not observe him.
Q You didn't see it?
A No, I didn't.
Q In other words, you are telling us something that you don't have of your own personal knowledge?
A I did not personally see it. I was told that Mr. Grebner moved it.
Q All right. You don't actually know of your own personal knowledge how the red clothing here got onto the end of the sofa. You had been told by somebody else. Is that right?
A That is correct.

MR. SEGAL: Will you leave this off, please, and turn on the other projector?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, this is a photograph marked D-12 and in this photograph we have the same scene. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q The only difference is that there is a ruler next to the plant there?
A That is correct.
Q Can you tell us why and how that ruler got to be there? Mostly why. Perhaps you can point it out to the members of the jury first.
A The ruler was here. Again, the ruler has been used in this photograph and other photographs to make a size reference; that is, a known size via a foot ruler or whatever, placed next to an object to give a size reference.
Q All right. Now, we will take that particular D-12 out and I am now going to show you a photograph that has been identified as Government Exhibit 75. I ask you to take a look at the two items of red clothing which in the photo I have on my left they appear on the sofa. They appear on the steps there. Are they, first of all, the same items of clothing?
A Yes, sir. They are.
Q There is also depicted in that photo, GX-75, an afghan. Do you see that?
A Yes, sir. I do.
Q Looking at the afghan as it appears in GX-75, looking at the afghan as it is displayed here, and comparing it as displayed here, would you conclude that not only had the clothing been moved from one position to another but the afghan had been moved somewhat?
A It appears that way. Yes, sir.
Q Who moved the afghan, of your own personal knowledge?
A Of my own personal knowledge? I have no personal knowledge. I did not see it being moved. I assume it was moved when the clothing was placed up there.
Q You are assuming again that this Mr. Grebner or some other investigator moved it. Is that right?
A That is correct.

MR. SEGAL: Now, if you would, let's take away 75 and show this photo.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q This is a black and white photograph that has been identified as Defendant Exhibit 17. This is a photograph by Mr. Alexander. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Alexander was that first photographer who came to the scene who became ill and didn't complete his work. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, in this particular photo what does it show near the end of the sofa -- the end nearest the hallway as far as any items of red clothing such as we see here in the photo that is still displayed here on the left screen?
A It shows that clothing on that couch.
Q Would you be good enough to point out to me with the pointer where the red clothing that's on the photo on the left appears on the black and white photo?
A It is this item on the top here.
Q Now, would you look again and tell me whether that, in your mind is actually the same red clothing or whether that is the coat of the photographer Mr. Alexander?
A No, it is not Mr. Alexander's coat.
Q You are certain?
A Yes.
Q You notice the left-hand display here that there is a red piece of cloth with a multi-colored print on it. Do you see that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where does that appear in the photo on the right screen, D-17?
A I do not see it in that photo.
Q So, therefore, it had at least been changed to that extent?
A Yes, sir. It had.
Q All right. Now, I want to show you a photograph that has been marked as D-23 this afternoon.

MR. SEGAL: Would you take off, please, the one over here?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, in this particular photo it shows a portion of the floor in the kitchen. Does it not?
A Yes, it does.
Q Well, also in the background it shows the steps that adjoin the sofa that we have been talking about. Is that also correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, if I may borrow the yardstick for a minute -- or the pointer. I want you to take a look at the portion of the steps that I am pointing to and tell me what, if any, items of clothing or apparel or anything else that you see there.
A I see nothing which is another indication that this photo was taken by Mr. Page.
Q I suggest you go up again, if you would, and take a look at the place I have pointed, and I will be glad to indicate again. Do you see what I am pointing to now?
A No, sir.
Q You do not. You do not see a blue impression on the screen?
A I see an object there but I cannot make it out.
Q All right. Does that look in any way like the red cloth and the red coat, that patterned cloth, we see in the other photograph?
A No, sir. That looks like something else.
Q Will it help you if we look at that particular photograph perhaps in its original condition without the projector to ascertain what it is?
A Perhaps.
Q All right. May we flip on one light, please, and we'll just have that photograph removed for a minute.

THE COURT: Mr. Ivory, we are having a little difficulty in hearing you over here with the reporter, so will you raise your volume a little for him, please?

THE WITNESS: All right, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, Mr. Ivory, I want you to examine, please, as close as you find necessary the photograph that is marked here. Have you had a chance to examine it?
A Yes, sir. I have.
Q What do you see now, looking at the original photograph, on the step?
A A blue object. I can't make out what it is.
Q Does it look like a slipper or a sock?
A It could be.
Q It certainly does not look like a red garment?
A Sir, if this is a photo by Mr. Page, the garments had long been moved.
Q Now, wait a minute. That does not look like a red garment, or a red patterned garment; does it?
A No, sir; it does not.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you very much. May I have that please? It would be satisfactory to me, Your Honor -- I would ask the court's guidance. Rather than keeping Mr. Ivory standing here, if the court would like, it is perfectly all right to sit here at the table as long as he projects his voice far enough to hear. Would you prefer that?

THE WITNESS: It makes no difference to me, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, let me show you, Mr. Ivory, first of all, the photo marked by the Government as G-24(b). Could you display that please? Now Mr. Ivory, in this photo, I ask you to take note whether in the vicinity of the couch on which this struggle was supposed to have taken place, do you see on or near the floor some pillows?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how many pillows are there on the floor near the sofa?
A Two.
Q And how would you describe the way they are placed in contact with each other?
A It appears to be the darker one atop the lighter one.
Q And is the darker one closer to us than the lighter one, or vice versa?
A It would appear that the bottom one is closer.

MR. SEGAL: Would you turn on the light for a second, please? We will leave this photo on. I just need a moment.

(Pause.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me show you now, if I may, a photo which is marked D-14 for identification, and I will show it on the adjoining screen. Can we get a little better focus on that, please?
Q Now, will you take a look at the same two pillows, the dark brown and light pillow as they appear on D-14 and tell me whether they appear to have been moved?
A Yes, sir; they do.
Q Who moved those pillows?
A I don't know, sir.

MR. SEGAL: All right, may we turn the lights on, please?

THE WITNESS: We are talking about photos made by two different persons here, several hours apart.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Keep your voice up?
A We are talking about one photo that was made several hours after the photo on the left.

MR. SEGAL: Put the lights off again, put both photos back on the screen.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Look at the photo on the left. Who was the photographer who made this photo?
A Mr. Squires.
Q And he is the second photographer on the scene, is that right?
A That is correct,
Q Of course, nowhere in this photo, by the way, do we see the red clothing -- that is the red garment and the red patterned garment on the sofa; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q On the one on the right, who is the photographer there?
A Mr. Page.
Q Now that photo was made some hours later when he arrived from Fort Gordon; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know of any investigative reasons which require those two pillows to have been moved by the time he arrived?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A Search for items, any fragile evidence, or perhaps a weapon, or something that may have been there.
Q
A search for a weapon?
A After all, there was supposed to have been an assault in that area.
Q Well, what time did you search in that area of the living room for a weapon?
A I did not particularly search in that part of the living room for a weapon. I did conduct a search in that area that morning with Mr. Medlin, looking for debris and threads, which I felt should have been in there. I don't recall having -- particularly myself -- moved that pillow.
Q Mr. Ivory, are you saying you searched at the end of the sofa, where the pillows are, for fibers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you search at the middle of the sofa for fibers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you search at the end nearest the hallway door for fibers?
A Yes, sir.
Q That all took place at 8:00 o'clock in the morning; is that right?
A No.
Q What time did that take place?
A After the arrival of the laboratory team.
Q You did not search for fibers around 8:00 o'clock in the morning?
A No, sir.
Q All right, we will come back to that later when we have some lights. But you yourself have no recollection of having moved those two pillows?
A No, sir.
Q You don't know who did move them?
A No, I don't.
Q But there were at least several people in the area from the CID who were working; is that right?
A Yes, sir; that is correct.
Q So that if we talked to them, eventually of them will tell us they moved them; is that right?
A Perhaps, if their recollection is good.

MR. SEGAL: All right, put the lights on, please.

(Pause.)

MR. SEGAL: Do you have D-21 there?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Before we turn the lights on, I want to ask you, Mr. Ivory, if I may, was there some blood that was found in the living room near the sofa?
A No, sir.
Q None at all?
A No, sir.
Q Was a pair of glasses found in the living room near the sofa?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did it have any blood on it?
A I would consider that more by the window than by the sofa. Yes, sir. It did have some blood.
Q All right. Let's ask the question again. In the vicinity of the sofa, was anything found on it that contained some blood?
A Yes, there was.
Q What was the first thing found to contain some blood?
A The only thing that I can recall that contained blood was the outer lens of Dr. MacDonald's eyeglasses with a tiny speck of blood on the lower side of them as they lay down --
Q (Interposing) How about on the step leading up to the hallway -- was there a speck of blood found there, too?
A Yes, there was.
Q So there were two places in the living room where blood was found?
A Well, I consider that the hallway.
Q Let's see if we can clarify it. Now, by the way, when you became aware of those glasses you found with blood on them, did you consider it to be a significant piece of evidence?
A Yes, sir.
Q Because there was a man who claims to have been injured -- stabbed in that very room, right?
A That is correct.
Q Was it important to maintain it until it could be properly taken in as evidence with tongs or tweezers and put in an evidence bag of some sort?
A No.
Q How were you going to pick that up?
A That was left to be processed by the chemistry people.
Q Was it important for them to be able to take it, pick it up, and recover it in a way that them could be sure someone else had not disturbed it?
A I am not sure I know what you mean, sir.
Q I just want to know was it important that they get it without it having been moved around or played with, kicked, or anything else by someone?
A Yes.
Q All right. Let's take a look whether that happened or not. The first photo I want to show you is the black and white photo marked D-19 for identification. On the left screen, the second photo I will show you is Government 24. Now, on the black and white photo, I want to point out to you an item on the floor. Do you recognize this -- do you know what that is?
A Those are the eyeglasses, yes.
Q Now, is one of the earpieces of the eyeglasses at right angles to the glasses themselves which are lying on the floor?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as you look at that picture going from left to right, assuming this is the left side and that is the right side, which earpiece is standing at right angles?
A I cannot tell.
Q All right. Let's put on the other picture. Don't bother, we will show you another photo. Now this is a photo by Mr. Alexander -- is that right -- that we're looking at?
A Yes.
Q And the photo we were looking at over here is taken by Mr. Squires -- is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Will you please take a look at the eyeglasses here and tell me whether or not the earpiece that is extended perpendicular to the floor is on the opposite side? Go take a look at it if you would like.
A It would appear to be.
Q Can you tell us who disturbed the eyeglasses with the spot of blood on them, if you know?
A I don't know, but I am sure it was an investigator looking at it to see if it had any evidentiary value.
Q And which investigator would that be besides yourself?
A Besides myself, it could have been Mr. Shaw, Mr. Connolly, or Mr. Grebner.
Q Mr. Ivory, I thought you testified that between the time the Alexander photos were taken and the time that the second photographer, Mr. Squires, took photos, there were no alterations in that scene in the living room.
A I don't believe that black and white photo taken by Mr. Alexander was one initially taken by him when he first came into the room or when he first came into the house.
Q That is a sheer speculation on your part, isn't it, Mr. Ivory?
A Not really, no, sir.
Q Do you have any record of the order in which he took the photographs?
A No, sir. But I can see that camera case sitting down at the bottom of the stairs.
Q Yes.
A In the lower left-hand corner.
Q Is that on the stairs or not?
A No. It is on the floor of the living room which indicates to me that it was taken later on in the morning. As I indicated yesterday, after he left the scene, after initially being ill, he did come back to the house several times in that morning to take subsequent photos and took photos in the house that I know of as late as 5:00 a.m.
Q Of course, you kept not one record of the sequence in which any photograph was taken. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q These photos were to be used by investigators to help them reconstruct the crime as they worked on the solution to this matter. Is that right?
A Sir, when I saw --
Q (Interposing) You can answer that and then you may explain.
A -- Sir, when I saw that --

MR. BLACKBURN: We OBJECT, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL: Turn the light on, please. I asked for a question which I had believed, Your Honor --

THE COURT: (Interposing) Apparently, he is not answering it in the manner that you want him to, but I'll just let him answer it and then if he has any explanation he can do that. If he doesn't answer it, I'll let you ask it again.

MR. SEGAL: All right, Your Honor. Let's start again.

THE WITNESS: When I saw that the photographs taken by Mr. Alexander were not going to cover the entire house, I, of course, made no specific effort to keep track of, either mentally --

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q (Interposing) Stop there. You didn't know when Mr. Alexander started that he was not going to do the whole house?
A No, I didn't.
Q Why did you not keep a record of the sequence in the photos he was taking, then, because you had no reason to think he was not going to finish it?
A When I took him through the house, I saw that he was not going to finish it. I had not maintained a log of the photos that he started to take at the beginning of the sequence of photographing the house; that is true.
Q What do you mean when you say you took him through, you could see that he was not going to finish it? You knew he was ill?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT. He has answered that question several times.

THE COURT: I don't know if he's answered, but I think your question is argumentative -- just why he considered something of value in his investigative techniques. If you can show that what he did was not what he should have done, then do it.

MR. SEGAL: I will, Your Honor.

THE COURT: But I will SUSTAIN the objection.

MR. SEGAL: Let me indicate, Your Honor, I appreciate Your Honor's suggestion. I intend to call a witness to show exactly that.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q It is your testimony here this afternoon, Mr. Ivory, that it is your belief that one of the other CID investigators moved the glasses that we have seen in these two photos from one position as I am holding it to another position as I am holding it now. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q However, nobody bothered to tell you that they had moved it. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q You have no way of personally knowing how much other alterations or changes there were made to those glasses. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q You don't know whether they destroyed any other drops of blood on them. Do you know that?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: I will OVERRULE the objection.

BY MR. SEGAL: .
Q You don't have any knowledge whether they destroyed any other drops of blood?
A No, sir. I have no knowledge.
Q Now, let me show two other photographs that have been marked for identification. The one on the left screen will be D-21. The one on the right screen will be G-24(b). Now I direct your attention, looking at this photo on the left screen, to what is on the wall next to a curtain here. Do you see that?
A An electric outlet, it looks like.
Q Is the electric outlet fully exposed to your view?
A Yes, it is.
Q By the way, what is here on the floor?
A Those are the eyeglasses that we were just discussing.
Q The eyeglasses. What position is the -- which of the earpieces is sticking up perpendicular to the floor -- the one to our left or the one to our right?
A The one to our right.
Q Now, I ask you to take a look at the photograph on the right screen. If you would like to go over it -- would you tell us whether the wall socket -- the wall plug is fully exposed in the same fashion as the photo on the left screen?
A No, sir. The photo by Mr. Squires, it is not in the photo. By Mr. Page, it is.
Q All right. That meant that some movement took place in the shades or the curtains here to partially obscure the plug; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, there are venetian blinds on this window to the right of the curtain; is that also correct?
A That is correct.
Q Were any fingerprints of any sort found here that proved of interest to the investigators in this case?
A I do not recall, sir. I don't believe so.
Q You don't recall or you don't believe there were any?
A I don't recall.
Q Were the window shades dusted for fingerprints?
A Yes, sir; they were.
Q So, we will have to wait until we get a fingerprint technician to tell us whether all of the prints that were found there, if any, were identified; is that right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q I also want to ask you about -- there was something on the sofa on the far right end. Can you tell us what that is?
A Yes, sir, two throw pillows.
Q On the far right end, how is the zebra or leopard-spotted pillow arranged?
A It is lying atop the darker pillow.
Q I ask you to take a look. Can we move this photo slightly over? Do you detect any difference in the line in the way the zebra pillow is located on the left-hand photo as opposed to the photo on the right there?
A We are looking at it from a different camera perspective. It is hard to say. It is quite possible since that photograph on the left was exposed some hours after the one on the right and after the area there had obviously been searched.
Q It is possible what?
A Obviously searched.
Q It is quite possible, and I want to know what is quite possible -- that the zebra pillow had been moved and changed positions somewhat?
A Yes, sir; it is possible.

MR. SEGAL: Turn the lights on, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I want to show you two color photographs -- one marked G-22 for identification. I am going to ask you to look a little bit more at the zebra pillows. I am going to show you some additional photos. One is marked D-19, and I will show that in contrast to G-24(b). I think it will be more helpful so we can find out what this pillow was doing. Now, I ask you to look at the black and white photograph on the left-hand screen. This is an Alexander photo; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, in this one, there is the leopard-spotted pillow and it appears to be almost to the very end and perhaps hanging over the far end of the sofa; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Looking at the picture on the right-hand screen, of course, the zebra-spotted or leopard-spotted pillow -- I beg your pardon -- is sitting back from the edge of the sofa on top of a second pillow; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Moved by investigators -- if you know?
A To my knowledge, yes. I have no knowledge of anyone else moving it.
Q Why don't you just tell us that if you don't have any knowledge. All right? Do you have any knowledge of how the pillow managed to change these various positions?
A Personal knowledge, no, sir.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you. May we put the light on again now?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, I want to ask you to focus your attention on a different area. Now, I want to show you a color photo marked Government Exhibit 21 and another color photo that will be in the left-hand projector, Government Exhibit 21, and in Government 22 in the right-hand projector, I show you another color photograph. Now, in the left-hand photograph, Mr. Ivory, do you see the high fidelity speaker with the plant atop it?
A Yes, I do.
Q Right here next to the high fidelity speaker, what do you observe?
A A feather.
Q I ask you to take a look at the photograph on the right-hand screen. Do you also see the feather on the speaker there?
A Yes, I do.

MR. SEGAL: Now, would you replace one of those, please, and put in the black and white photo. Oh, I beg your pardon. Before you do that --

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q In the left-hand screen photo, what am I pointing to here? Can you describe what that is?
A It appears to be a portion of an ashtray.
Q Does it have cigarettes and ashes in it?
A Yes, it does.
Q You know, of course, that Dr. MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald didn't smoke. You found that out in your investigation; didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who filled that ashtray with cigarettes and ashes?
A I think it was the military police.
Q The people who were guarding the crime scene?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is an item from the MacDonald house -- that ashtray; is that right?
A I don't know.
Q You don't know if that belonged to the MacDonalds or not?
A That is correct. Since they didn't smoke, perhaps it was introduced when they came in. I don't know.
Q That is interesting. Did you bother to find out whether it belonged to the MacDonalds or perhaps someone put their fingerprints on it and that might be someone you would want to know about?
A No, sir.
Q You did not find out?
A I did not.
Q You just as per usual assumed?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, I will SUSTAIN that OBJECTION as to the form of that question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You made an assumption, Mr. Ivory, that this was an ashtray that came from where -- what was your assumption?
A I made no assumption, sir.
Q You made no effort to find the facts either; did you?
A That is correct.
Q So, it is a mystery today as to whom the ashtray belongs to; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q That ashtray is sitting on a desk in the MacDonald household; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was anything else missing from the living room in and about that desk?
A Yes, sir. I am sure you are referring to the wallet, yes, sir.
Q A wallet was missing. All right. Where was the wallet missing from?
A The wallet was originally on the desk, but during the early hours of the incident and the crime scene processing and people being in the house, one of the medical personnel stole it.
Q You, of course, saw them steal it and you are testifying now of your personal knowledge?
A I did not see who stole it.
Q None of this is your personal knowledge, right, Mr. Ivory?
A That is correct.
Q Now, if you will, we have two pictures here showing the feather on the high fidelity speaker. May we see the black and white, please, Mac?

MR. SEGAL: Do you have the black and white? I thought I had handed you the photo. I am sorry.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I am going to show you a photo marked D-16 for identification. Now, on the right-hand screen, we have placed a black and white photograph and we can see the stereo speaker. Is there any feather on the stereo speaker now?
A No, sir, there is not.
Q What do you observe on the floor, as we face it, to the right of the third speaker?
A A feather.
Q It appears to be the same feather, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which CID investigator moved the feather?
A I have no idea, sir.
Q You have no idea how it got on the floor?
A No, I have no idea.

MR. SEGAL: Could you turn the light on for a minute, please. Leave the pictures on.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The back door of this house was open for a substantial period of time, wasn't it?
A A substantial period of time.
Q The back door? It was open for a period of time?
A Yes, sir.
Q To your knowledge, from the time you arrived until the last time you are aware of, how long was the back door open?
A I arrived at 4:00 and I can say with certainty when we photographed that part of the house with Mr. Squires, the door was shut, which would have been at a maximum of 40 or 45 minutes, an hour perhaps.
Q Was the front door to the MacDonald house open and shut a few times during that period of time?
A Yes, sir; it was.
Q Did it create a draft effect?
A Yes, it did.
Q Could it move something as light as a feather?
A It is quite possible.
Q Could it move something as light as a fiber?
A Quite possible.
Q Now Mr. Ivory, you told us when you examined the master bedroom you observed that at least one drawer in a chest of drawers was partially open; is that correct?
A That is correct.

MR. SEGAL: If Your Honor will excuse my back, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q At the time you observed that door being opened, you had no idea what, if anything, had been kept in that drawer by the MacDonald family?
A That is correct.
Q You certainly had no idea why somebody might have either opened it or left it not closed fully?
A That is correct.
Q At that juncture, was that not a matter that you would like to have had more information about?
A Not right at that time, no.
Q But it was an investigative question that would be of interest, would it not?
A Exactly.
Q Of course, if you found the fingerprints of somebody on it that did not come from the MacDonald house, that might be significant; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q I want to show you some photographs in that regard. I want to, on the left-hand screen, show you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 157 and, on the right-hand screen, I want to show you a photo marked Government 212. Now this is a photograph by Mr. Alexander?
A Yes, sir.
Q And is this the one which depicts the drawer being slightly open, as you saw it when you first noticed it in the MacDonald master bedroom?
A Yes, it does.
Q And it has a piece of white cloth of some sort sticking out?
A That is correct.
Q It is quite visible that the drawer is open at that point, to some extent?
A To some extent.
Q Right. It is clear that this middle drawer is not closed fully, because it is obstructed by a piece of clothing hanging out?
A That is correct.
Q Now, may we see the other photo please? Now I ask you to take a look at this color photograph at the same chest of drawers and tell us whether or not that middle drawer is still open in the fashion as in the black and white photo?
A No, sir; in the photo exposed by Mr. Page, it is not. It had already been looked into.
Q It had already been looked into. What does that mean?
A The investigator, Mr. Shaw, had already looked into that drawer.
Q Where's the fingerprint dust on that drawer to indicate that someone had checked for fingerprints before Mr. Shaw put his paws on it?
A I don't see any.
Q Indicating to you that he had checked it and apparently moved the piece of clothing or garment, whatever it is, and closed it before it had been fingerprinted?
A That is correct. It would not be too difficult to open and shut that without contaminating the outer surface for fingerprints.

MR. SEGAL: Put the light on, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Could you explain to us why anybody would want to do that in an investigation of a triple homicide? To straighten a drawer front before fingerprints were taken?
A Perhaps to look in the drawer to see if there were additional weapons or something else of great interest to us.
Q Like what?
A Like a weapon.
Q And who was going to use that weapon?
A My God, Counselor, we were looking for weapons that killed these people.
Q You were looking for weapons? Now, Mr. Ivory, what was there that required that drawer to be opened, the garment moved and shut, prior to the fingerprinting? What was the urgency that required that without having had the fingerprint man dust and lift whatever latent prints he could?
A To see if there was some fragile evidence or something that had to be looked at immediately.
Q Fragile evidence that might be destroyed inside the drawer?
A Or something that may be of urgent importance to us.
Q Like fingerprints?
A Not like fingerprints. Who knows what might have been in there.
Q But you do know that if somebody touches fingerprints, you will never get that again?
A That is correct.
Q I have two photographs which I think are somewhat unpleasant to look at, but I'm going to ask you to look at the photographs of the body of Kristen MacDonald. Will you place G-70 in the projector, please, and then look at Photograph Defendant 22 in the other?
Now in the photograph marked G-70, this is the photograph of Kristen MacDonald in her bed; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Taken by Mr. Squires?
A That is correct.
Q Is this prior to the time that Dr. Neal examined Kristen MacDonald?
A It was subsequent to.
Q You mean after he examined her?
A Yes, sir.
Q Turn on the other picture, please. That photo on the righthand screen, when was that taken?
A That was exposed prior to the examination by Dr. Neal.
Q You mean Dr. Neal came into the room and saw Kristen MacDonald's body in the position that is marked on this photo here to the left (sic)? A substantial portion of her mid-body is exposed, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q The green blanket or coverlet, over here, is folded back in the fashion you have here?
A That is correct, sir.
Q The baby bottle is lying next to her face here; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q By the way, the bottle is not in her mouth, is it?
A No, it is not.
Q That is contrary to what you said here in the court yesterday?
A It is not. I said it was near her mouth.
Q You said it was near. You did not mean to say it was in her mouth?
A I did not say it was in her mouth.
Q So if I heard you say "in," I am incorrect in what I heard?
A Yes, sir.
Q So Dr. Neal came in and you say he moved her body slightly, was your testimony. Is that your testimony? Is that correct?
A That's right.
Q This G-70 is supposed to show how it looked after he moved her body slightly?
A That is correct.
Q Well now, let's go. What is missing here from vision as a result of Dr. Neal's activities? Where is the child's right arm?
A The right arm has been tucked under the blanket.
Q On the far side of where it was when he came in?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the blanket -- it hasn't returned to the same position as it was when you first saw it. Was it?
A No, sir.
Q It was pulled up over her. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q We do not note in this photo what the condition of her midsection is. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q We do not know whether it is covered. Is that right?
A That is correct.

MR. SEGAL: Turn them off, please, for now, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me show you one last picture, Government Exhibit 24. Now, who took this picture, Mr. Ivory?
A I believe, sir, it was taken by Mr. Squires.
Q So, this is the crime scene is still intact? Is that right?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Except, of course, for this white flower pot?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the white flower, of course -- you never knew that that had been moved until sometime considerably after February 17, 1970?
A That is --
Q Beg your pardon?
A I don't know if I knew that day or later. I don't know, sir. I did not know at the time. I took no note of this particular flower pot having been moved or not.
Q We will come back to that one. Now, do you see a wallet on the floor here anywhere?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever see a wallet on the floor in the living room of the MacDonald house the night (sic) you were there?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever heard anyone testify that there was a wallet on the floor of the living room?
A No, sir. The wallet was on the desk in the living room.
Q I'll ask you again.
A No, sir. I did not.
Q You never heard anyone testify to that?
A No, sir. I did not.
Q So that this picture purports to show the living room as you, the investigator, found it. Right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q And based upon your interviews of various people, it led you to believe that this is the way it was when the first MPs arrived. Is that right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q That would mean that this is supposed to look the way it was after the crime was committed and before anyone from the outside world disturbed it?
A That is correct, sir.
Q But in fact you know that that is not correct?
A Taking into consideration that flower pot, perhaps that is a correct statement on your part.

MR. SEGAL: All right. Would you turn the lights on, please? Thank you very much, Your Honor. We appreciate the opportunity. Mr. Ivory, you may return to the stand.
This might be an appropriate time for us to dismantle this equipment if we are going to have a break.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. SEGAL: I am sorry, Your Honor. I was asking that if you wish to take the break now, we could dismantle it during the break.

THE COURT: I didn't hear that. I thought you said it might be a nice time to dismantle the equipment and I said I agreed.

MR. SEGAL: Would Your Honor desire to take a break at this time?

THE COURT: I am not going to take a break until our regular time. That will be about ten minutes from now.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, Mr. Ivory, I want to talk about the wallet that is missing from the living room. First of all, if I understand your testimony, you yourself never saw a wallet in the MacDonald living room?
A No, sir. I didn't say that. I never saw it on the floor. It was on the desk.
Q You saw a wallet on the desk?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you first observe the wallet?
A On one of my first trips into the house.
Q Well, on which one of the trips? We have gone through them and I have got up to four.
A Perhaps not the first one. Perhaps the second. I did observe a lady's purse and a wallet on the top of the desk near to the door.
Q What color was the wallet that was on top of the desk?
A It was a dark color. I don't recall right now if it was brown or black.
Q And did you ever examine it while you were in the house that morning?
A No, sir. I did not.
Q Did you look inside whether it had money or valuables of any sort?
A No, sir. I did not look at it.
Q That is the only wallet you saw?
A That is the only wallet that I saw. Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever interview Specialist Kenneth Mica?
A No, sir. Not that I recall.
Q Beg your pardon?
A Not that I recall. No, sir.
Q Not that you recall. If I were to tell you that Mr. Mica, now Officer Mica, has testified in this courtroom that he observed a wallet on the floor of the living room and, as a matter of fact, placed a yellow piece of paper which has managed to disappear from our custody here approximately because we have a picture of it -- approximately in the point not far north of the end of the coffee table in the living room. If I were to tell you that, would you tell us whether that is the first time that you have ever been aware that a responsible: witness had seen a wallet in that position?
A I don't recall having heard that before. No, sir.
Q When do you think you heard that before?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN that, I suppose. He said he didn't think he had ever heard it before.

MR. SEGAL: I am sorry.

THE COURT: Didn't you ask when did you hear it before?

MR. SEGAL: That is my hearing, Your Honor. I am sorry.

THE COURT: All right. No harm done. Ask another question. You got that one.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Do you know whether any CID investigator ever investigated the question of whether there was a wallet on the floor of the MacDonald living room?
A I know CID investigators investigated the fact of the wallet being stolen from the top of the desk but not to my knowledge of any investigation concerning a wallet from the floor.
Q There is no fact in this case that you know of, is there, that prevents there from having been two wallets in the living room on that particular morning?
A That is correct.
Q In fact, there is no fact that you know of in this case that prevents that wallet that was seen by Officer Mica on the floor from belonging to one of the people who attacked Dr. MacDonald?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: Well, I will have to SUSTAIN that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Do you know of any reason why officer Mica would lie about the fact that he saw a wallet on the floor near the coffee table?
A Lie? No, sir.
Q From what you know of officer Mica now and Specialist Mica then, did you know him to be a good military policeman?
A I had no personal knowledge of his capacity as a military policeman.
Q I think you did tell us earlier today that you made it your business to know most of the military policemen who patrolled Fort Bragg.
A That is correct.
Q You happened to miss Kenneth Mica?
A No, I didn't happen to miss him. I just did not know his competence as a military policeman.
Q I see.
A I knew them by face. I knew them to greet. They knew me to greet me but I did not know of his competence as a patrolman.
Q Now, the feather that was pointed out to you first in the position on top of a high-fidelity speaker and later on the floor -- did you manage to find the source of that feather or the identical matches of that feather anyplace in the MacDonald house?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did it come from?
A There was a child's Indian headdress sort of toy in the bookshelf in Kimberly's bedroom. It is clearly depicted in one of those photographs.
Q Yes? And, of course, you did the scientific comparison and found them the same?
A No, sir. They just appeared visually to be the same to me.
Q You mean to the naked eye?
A To the naked eye. Yes, sir.
Q And whose naked eye are we talking about?
A We are talking about my naked eye.
Q Now, when did you make that comparison?
A During that first day.
Q And you picked up the feather?
A Yes, sir.
Q You carried it ever so gingerly with a pair of tweezers back to the bedroom. Right?
A No, sir.
Q You had it in your hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's how much you thought of it as evidence in this case. Right?
A I didn't think fingerprints could be transferred onto feathers.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor, to the characterization by Counsel.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You gave no greater value in this matter that all you thought was necessary to handle it was to put it in your hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q You walked back to the child's bedroom and you looked at the headdress there. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q How long did this comparison take place while you stood there looking at one hand to look at the headdress and the other hand?
A I don't know, sir.
Q It didn't take long for you to dismiss it. Right?
A That is correct.
Q That is why you never submitted it to any laboratory for identification and comparison?
A That is correct.
Q You didn't even have a magnifying glass with you, did you, Mr. Ivory?
A I certainly did.
Q You did?
A Of course.
Q Where was it? Out in your car?
A No, sir.
Q Can't hear you.
A It is part of a fingerprint kit, an integral part of every fingerprint kit.
Q When did you bring the fingerprint kit in?
A It was brought in later on in the morning. I don't know when it arrived.
Q So you didn't have it -- beg your pardon -- have a magnifying glass with you when you made this comparison?
A I did not make it with a magnifying glass, no.
Q The question was that you didn't have a magnifying glass even in the house when you made that comparison?
A That is not true.
Q Well, where was it?
A I told you, sir. It was in the fingerprint kit.
Q I don't think you told us where that kit was.
A The kit was in the living room.
Q You mean in the same room where the stereo speaker was?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you didn't bother to go over there and get it out?
A No, sir.
Q And you have not preserved that or saved that piece of evidence?
A No, sir.
Q It never occurred to you that the person who was responsible for the awful death of Kristen MacDonald might have brought that on their clothing on their body into the living room. Right?
A Not -- as it was so similar, sir, in appearance to those feathers that were part of that headgear -- that headgear that was in that bookcase.
Q What I meant to ask you is -- and it is my fault that it wasn't clear -- that they carried it on their person, having brushed against it and touched it. Assuming you are right that it is the same, it never occurred to you that it might have been brought in there on the body or person of the person who killed Kristen MacDonald?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I don't know whether whether it occurred to him or not is particularly probative of anything. I believe I will SUSTAIN that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Regardless, what did you finally do with that feather? How did you dispose of it or report it, store it?
A It may still be in the house.
Q So, you dropped it on the floor?
A I wouldn't say I dropped it on the floor. I am sure it was placed somewhere.
Q What place did you put it for safekeeping in the house?
A I don't recall.
Q Where in your notes, Mr. Ivory, or where in your memoranda or report, Mr. Ivory, did you state that you made this comparison between the feather in the living room and the headdress in the baby's bedroom?
A Because it was so similar and it appeared to me not to be an item of evidentiary value and therefore insignificant, I made no note of it.
Q You mean the fact that you observed what turned out not to be of any conclusive value, you didn't bother to record it?
A That is correct.
Q Did you show that feather to any other investigator so that maybe perhaps someone with more experience than yourself might exercise some judgment as to whether it should be saved or not?
A Other people did see it. Yes, sir.
Q I asked did you show it to any other investigator before discarding it or leaving it in the house or whatever you did with it?
A I didn't discard it, sir. As I say, it may still be in the house.
Q And it may not?
A I don't recall if I particularly brought it to someone's attention, but I know other agents in there saw it.
Q Would you tell us, please, the name of any agent that you reasonably believe you showed the feather and talked about the feather comparison with?
A Mr. Grebner, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Connolly, perhaps some of the people from the laboratory.
Q Are you telling us that from memory?

THE COURT: We will take our afternoon recess and we will come back at 4:00 o'clock. Don't talk about the case.

(The proceeding was recessed at 3:45 p.m., to be reconvened at 4:00 p.m., this same day.)


F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S (4:01 p.m.)

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT: Any further questions of this witness?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.

(Whereupon, WILLIAM F. IVORY was recalled as a witness, and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:)


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N (resumed)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The last matter we were talking about before the recess, Mr. Ivory, is -- I was trying to find out whether you had ever discussed with any other investigator the question of what you should do or not do with the feather found in the living room. Do you recall that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe the last thing you told me was that you had discussed it -- the question of what to do with the feather and whether it had any evidential value -- with Mr. Shaw, Mr. Grebner, Mr. Ivory, Mr. Connolly, or the CID lab techs, is that right?
A That is correct, yes, sir.
Q Now, what I really want you to tell us is do you have an actual memory of having talked to one or all those persons, or are you just saying that because you talked constantly about everything in the case with those persons?
A No, sir, I remember making that comparison with the feather, and I remember discussing it with other investigative personnel, and I remember them concurring with my estimate of the situation.
Q The estimate was not to preserve that piece of evidence, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Not to turn it over to the lab for scientific comparison?
A That's correct.
Q And when you've given us this list of four names, do you mean to tell us you've talked with all four of them about that, or you think it was one or two of those four?
A It was one or more, or all of them, sir.
Q Who from the Fort Gordon team would you have talked to about whether you should preserve and have a scientific examination made of the feather?
A I don't know, sir; perhaps the chemistry people, perhaps. I don't know, sir.
Q So the answer is you don't know?
A Correct.
Q During this morning and this afternoon, Mr. Ivory, you have mentioned a number of occasions that you conducted an interview in connection with this case, is that right?
A Sir, would you go over that again, please?
Q I said I had recollection that this morning and this afternoon, in response to a number of questions, you told me that you made interviews with MPs and other people at various times between February 17, 1970, and say the beginning of the Article 32 proceedings in June of 1970?
A I don't know if I specifically said that, no, sir.
Q I am putting it in the timeframe, but you did tell us you conducted various interviews?
A Perhaps I did.
Q Well, if you didn't, then correct me. My impression was --
A I don't recall specifically having said that, sir.
Q Well, all right, let's put it to you that way. Aside from collecting the various items of evidence that you described for us when the Government was examining you, what did you do after this evidence was all collected, in the first three, four or five days after this crime was reported?
A That three, four, or five days was while the crime lab team was there. We continued in the house even after the crime lab team had departed, made trips to the crime lab to be with them when they looked at and compared a lot of the items that we sent down there, conferred with the other investigators in the office about what they had done and what they had found, sir.
Q Well, didn't you ever get out in the field and go knock on the neighbors' doors and say, "What did hear on the early morning hours of February 17, 1970?"
A Other than talking to the Kalin family, perhaps another family in that same building, I did not conduct those neighborhood checks, as they may be called.
Q I got the impression you suggested that you perhaps talked to MPs between February 17 and the beginning of the military proceedings, sir, in June, 1970. Did you do that?
A Yes, sir, I'm sure I did.
Q And did you conduct any other interviews between February 17 and June 1, 1970?
A Sir, I don't recall.
Q Isn't it a matter of fact --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this line of questioning as to the interviews of people after the date of the crime, except for the MPs, on the basis that it was not covered in Direct Examination of this witness.

THE COURT: Well, in the exercise of my discretion, I will let counsel explore these other avenues, assuming that your premise is correct. I will limit him to Direct Examination techniques, however.

MR. BLACKBURN: Thank you, Your Honor. I wonder before we go any further if we could have a brief conference with you at the bench, sir.

THE COURT: Yes.


B E N C H C O N F E R E N C E

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, I am presupposing something. I don't know whether Mr. Segal is going to do it or not, but what I am concerned about is he is going into the matter of interviews concerning Helena Stoeckley, which is the subject --

THE COURT: (Interposing) He's shaking his head.

MR. SEGAL: I'm not going into that now.

THE COURT: Does that answer your question?

MR. BLACKBURN: Yes, sir, that would answer my question.

MR. SEGAL: I am not going into that subject now, Your Honor.

(Counsel confer.)

(Bench conference terminated.)


BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, would you agree or disagree that between February 17, 1970, and June 1st, 1970, that you conducted no more than six interviews in connection with this case?
A As to any numbers, sir, I can't specifically state.
Q Would it refresh your recollection, perhaps, on the subject if I read to you from the sworn statement that you made to me on July 5th, 1970. I refer to page 20, line 15, and I ask you whether by reading the following question and answer you feel refreshed; or if you don't feel refreshed, whether you have any reason to disagree with what the court reporter has put down here.
"Question: Now approximately how many people have you interviewed regarding this case, just roughly? Answer: Not many."
Now, do you either recall that question and answer, or do you accept the stenographer's version?
A I accept the version, sir; I don't recall it specifically.
Q "Question: Give me a round number? Answer: A half-dozen." Does that refresh your recollection or do you accept the stenographer's version?
A I will accept the stenographer's version of what I said.
Q "Question: A dozen? Answer: Well, we made a cursory sweep through the neighborhood the first morning. Now, there were some people there; I'm not including that in the interviews if that is what you mean." Does that refresh your recollection or do you accept the stenographer's version?
A I accept the stenographer's version of what I said.
Q So in your own interviewing efforts in this case from February 17 to July 5, consists of no more than a half a dozen interviews?
A Sir, I don't recall a specific number. I accept what is on that transcript. I cannot tell you who, in those half dozen persons, I may have interviewed, except perhaps one civilian downtown.
Q You can't tell who was among those six except for perhaps a civilian downtown?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now you had Mr. Robert Shaw as your kind of co-investigator in this case; is that right?
A That is correct; yes, sir.
Q Was Mr. Shaw conducting a great many interviews of possible witnesses between February 17th and July 5th of 1970?
A Sir, I cannot give you any figures on the number of people he may have interviewed.
Q If I were to suggest to you that in his grand jury testimony on August 21st, 1974, at page 21, line 9, he said as follows: "I only participated in the interview of two people in connection with this case," would you have any reason to disagree with his statement that that was all that he did as far as interviews were concerned?
A No, sir; no reason at all.
Q So between you and your co-investigator, the only sum total of interviews you conducted was eight in number, approximately?
A Perhaps.
Q Who was going around the neighborhood where this terrible crime happened to find out whether any of the people who lived there could offer helpful information?
A Military Police Investigators, other agents from the CID office, special agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q And who was in charge of that part of the investigation?
A I, sir, was not. Therefore, I would have no direct knowledge as to who directed it.
Q You would not want to tell us anything you didn't have personal knowledge of, right?
A It may have been Mr. Grebner, a combination of Mr. Grebner coordinating activities so as to get the personnel from the Military Police, the Provost Marshal, and the Deputy Provost Marshal. I was not present during those discussions and the setting up of the operations.
Q Nobody bothered to inform you that they were sending out investigators in the neighborhood to find out whether there was any information to be had from neighbors?
A I knew, sir, that they were doing that. I just don't know the mechanics of the coordination.
Q I don't really care about the mechanics of coordination. I only want to know who was it that said, "Investigator A, you cover the east side of the street; Investigator B, you cover the west side of the street, and you both come back to me and give me the names and addresses of all the houses that you went to." Who did that?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT. He stated he did not know.

THE COURT: Yes, I think you pretty well covered that. He said he interviewed about six, and this other fellow about two, and that the others were done by FBIs and MPs and CIDs he didn't know.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now in this morning's testimony, and in this afternoon, you have told us about four trips you made through the MacDonald house. You recall that, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q I have asked you after each one of those trips to search your memory to see whether you have told the jury today all of the things that you were told by Lieutenant Paulk and any MP about the case, so far as you knew?
A Yes, sir.
Q I recall you told me, at the end of each one of those occasions, that you had repeated what you could remember?
A That is correct.
Q Do you still stand by that testimony?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you ever learn, then, that Dr. MacDonald, in fact, said that he had been assaulted, stabbed, and that his family had been murdered by four people, three men and a woman?
A I am trying to think who went and initially interviewed him at the hospital. Mr. Connolly was perhaps one of the first to go there and interview him. When he went with the bodies, which we did not cover earlier, to the hospital, I know he interviewed him at that time. I am not sure if he was the first or the second to go up and interview him, but we received information back from the hospital that this was the result of the initial interview with Dr. MacDonald.
Q Mr. Connolly did not go to Womack Hospital until sometime after 8:00 o'clock in the morning of February 17th, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Is it your testimony that between 4:00 a.m. when you learned about this crime, until 8:00 a.m., four hours later, you never heard that there were four persons accused by Dr. MacDonald of being responsible for these crimes?
A No, sir; I don't believe I said that.
Q I will then ask you my question again. When, during these various trips that you have described through the house -- four in number -- did Lieutenant Paulk or any MP tell you about the fact that Dr. MacDonald described four people as assaulting and killing his family?
A Lieutenant Paulk advised me of that in his initial briefing with me.
Q Just hold it there. You mean the first time you came into the house?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before you walked through that cursory quick look at each of the rooms?
A That is correct. Either before or during.
Q Either before or during?
A Probably before, when he was giving me the initial briefing there in the living room. He told me that was the information that they had obtained to that point. That a group of persons -- I don't recall his exact words -- but a group of persons had come into the house, and attacked the family.
Again, at that point, he was being wheeled down the stairs into the living room, and he identified him as being the husband or the man of the household.
Q Mr. Ivory, when I asked you this morning, and I know it was long, tedious, and boring, but we went through each of your trips, and each time you had a conversation. Is there any reason why, when we covered your first entry into the house and you described what Lieutenant Paulk told you, you made no mention that Paulk told you about the four assailants?
A I don't recall that he said four assailants. There was discussions of a group.
Q All right, any reason why, when we went through that this morning --
A (Interposing) I believe I did, sir.
Q You believe you told us this morning about four assailants?
A No, sir. I believe I told you this morning or perhaps in direct, that I was told by Lieutenant Paulk that a group of people had come in the house and had attacked Dr. MacDonald and his family.
Q Well, these are somewhat different things you are saying. I want to ask you this.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, I'll ask the jury, don't consider that last comment of counsel.

MR. SEGAL: I don't offer that as evidence, Your Honor. I just want to understand --

THE COURT: (Interposing) They're not going to consider it anyway, so that's all right.

MR. SEGAL: I'm sure they won't be misled by me, Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, if I were to suggest to you that this morning when we covered your first entry into the house and that I asked you about what Mr. Paulk told you, that you did not in any way mention about this group of four, or whatever it is, can you tell us any reason why you omitted that when I asked you about it this morning?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

MR. ANDERSON: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, give us to the best of your recollection now the specifics that Lieutenant Paulk gave you about the persons that Dr. MacDonald described?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor. He has answered this a number of times, it seems.

THE COURT: I will let him answer it one more time.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall that he gave me a physical description of those individuals at that time, other than to say, that they were, as I say, a group of people that had entered the house and had attacked the family.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You didn't ask if it were two, three, four or a dozen?
A He was telling me what he knew.
Q I understand, but you were not mute, were you?
A Of course not.
Q What did you ask when he said a group; did you ask --
A (Interposing) I asked --
Q (Interposing) Let me finish my question?
A I'm sorry.
Q Did you ask him the number of people that the word "group" encompassed?
A I'm sure I did, and in what phraseology, I don't recall, but I am sure I did.
Q What did you learn from him?
A He did not specifically say, to my knowledge -- to my memory -- the number of persons involved.
Q You did learn that there was at least one woman involved, or Dr. MacDonald had described one woman as being involved?
A That is correct.
Q Now when you received that information -- that was right after you came in the house; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q You had also told us in response to a question this morning that you were monitoring your radio on the way over from CID headquarters to the house, correct?
A It was on; yes, sir.
Q I asked you this morning whether you were monitoring any information about this case?
A I didn't hear anything, any broadcast about it that I can recall.
Q Sir, but when Lieutenant Paulk told you, as you now have described to us, that there was a report of a group of intruders in his house, you knew at that point that no message had been broadcast to MP patrols to be on the lookout for a group?
A No, sir; I did not know that at all.
Q Well, as I gather from your testimony, you had been monitoring the radio since the first time you heard some voices that roused you a little bit earlier that morning; is that right?
A That's correct.
Q And you made some calls to try to get organized to go over there; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q But you continued to have the radio on; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q You should never turn the radio off?
A Well, there was one radio in the office; I did not turn it off. Between there and the car, they may have been broadcast -- I don't know. In the car, I turned the radio on, and I do not recall having heard broadcasts in relation to or in regard to the incident at that quarters.
Q Well, when Lieutenant Paulk told you about the group, you had never heard that information broadcast; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Did you then ask him whether he had caused that information to be broadcast to the MP patrols operating at Fort Bragg?
A I do not recall.
Q Did you then say, "Gee whiz, one of us had better make sure the broadcast gets out so the patrols can stop some people who are going around"?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor. He stated that he did not recall.

MR. SEGAL: Whether Lieutenant Paulk told him -- I wanted to know whether he said something to Paulk.

THE COURT: Answer his question.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall if that conversation came up, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Whether there was a conversation or not, did you at any time cause a radio message to be sent to other MP patrols at Fort Bragg to be on the lookout for a group of persons perhaps involved in these terrible crimes?
A Sir, I personally did not.
Q When you say, "I personally," do I detect that perhaps you know someone else did that?
A Yes, sir; I believe there was.
Q You believe it? Do you have any knowledge that somebody caused such a message to be put out?
A I do not know who caused it to be put out, but I know the patrols were informed.
Q How do you know that?
A I believe it could be found, perhaps, if it still exists, on the recordings of the military police van for that night. I know there were some subsequent radio traffic about that. I did not hear it. I was told this.
Q Well, when we get right down to it, you don't have any personal knowledge about those messages and you are not even sure when and who if anyone ever did cause a broadcast message to be put out to those MP patrols?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Now, did Lieutenant Paulk ever tell you that he was present in the room when Dr. MacDonald described the people who were involved in this act?
A I don't recall if he said he was there or if it was information he gathered from the other military policemen.
Q Did Lieutenant Paulk tell you that one of these military policemen said that on the way to respond to the call for help at the MacDonald family house, that he had seen a woman in a large and somewhat floppy hat?
A No, sir, I was not told that.
Q Did not learn that?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q This is the same Lieutenant Paulk that you put in charge of the crime scene when you weren't there; is that right?
A That very one, sir.
Q The very one who you said that you relied upon and that by the time you got there, he had properly protected it for you?
A That is correct.
Q When was the first time you ever learned that then-Specialist Mica had seen a young woman five country blocks away from the MacDonald house who he noticed because of the hat she was wearing?
A I don't recall when I first heard that. Whether it was the first day or subsequent days, I just do not recall.
Q You mean this first day or subsequent day, you never interviewed Mica; is that right?
A No, sir.
Q So, you would have gotten it second or third-hand?
A That is correct.
Q When you got it second or third-hand, you jumped into action by doing what about that?
A I did not hear of it the first day, sir, I am sure.
Q Whenever you heard of it, what did you do? What kind of action did you take?
A I could not have run to the corner to see if she was still there, sir.
Q An interesting idea. How about going to Mica? He might be some place where you could find him.
A My areas of interest were concentrated in that initial part of the investigation towards the crime scene. There were other qualified CID agents taking care of other leads that were being developed such as that whenever that was developed.
Q You, as the lead case agent, did not have any interest in leads that might point to possibly what other persons were involved?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: Yes, I will SUSTAIN that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Well, you said to us that you were involved and interested in collecting physical evidence -- that that was your real interest?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever learn during the period of time that you were collecting physical evidence that Dr. MacDonald described the woman who he saw in his home as carrying a candle which gave off a flickering light?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And that he said he saw that woman in the living room of his house?
A That is correct.
Q By any chance, as you were gathering up the physical evidence, did you find any wax in the living room?
A Yes, sir, there was some wax in the living room.
Q You sound like it didn't seem very important. Didn't you think that was a significant clue to find wax?

MR. ANDERSON: OBJECTION.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe it was significant.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q When and where did you find this wax?
A There was wax on one of the slats of the upturned coffee table as I recall.
Q The coffee table?
A Yes, sir.
Q In the living room?
A Yes, sir.
Q The very place that Dr. MacDonald says he was engaged in a struggle and in which he saw the woman with a candle; is that right?
A Yes, sir; however, I believe the wax that was found there was found to be similar to household candles.
Q Wait a minute. Somebody rumbled. Let's hear that answer again.
A As I recall, that wax that was found there was old wax on the table, and it was found to be similar to some candle wax of candles from within the house.
Q Mr. Ivory, is it your testimony -- sworn testimony in this house today that you are not aware that there was wax that was located in the MacDonald living room that to this very day has not been identified as coming from the MacDonald house; is that your testimony?
A As I recall right now, I cannot think of any that wasn't.
Q I am asking you specifically, sir, is it your sworn testimony that you are not aware that there was wax that was recovered during the course of this collection of evidence which has not been identified as having come from a source inside that house?

MR. BLACKBURN: We would OBJECT. It seems to me that is the very question he just answered.

THE COURT: You may answer that one more time then.

THE WITNESS: I am saying, sir, in laboratory reports that I have reviewed, if I have seen such a remark, I do not recall it at this time.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q When was the last time that you read the laboratory reports?
A Within the last year, sir.
Q Within the last year?
A Last year or two, yes.
Q About four or five -- at the grand jury?
A Then, also, yes, sir.
Q You do not have your recollection for certain on that subject; is that right?
A Of unidentified wax in the living room, I have no specific remembrance of having seen such an entry. It may be there. I do not recall having read it.
Q Did you go through the house at any time to collect any household candles or any other wax that might have been part of the MacDonald household so that the laboratory could compare that with the material that was found during the crime scene investigation?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Tell us about what you did and what did you find?
A I found a large assortment of candles of different colors and of multi colors that were throughout the house and are depicted in some of the photographs. All candles that we did find were collected and transmitted to the laboratory for comparison with wax found there in the house.
Q You were very good the other day when the Government was questioning --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL: -- about dates and places where you found this.

MR. ANDERSON: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the OBJECTION to the form of that question.

MR. SEGAL: I withdraw the compliment, Mr. Ivory.

MR. ANDERSON: OBJECT to that remark, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I SUSTAIN the OBJECTION to your remark and ask counsel please to just ask your questions and not flavor them with opinions as to probative value of his testimony or otherwise.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, on what date did you go into the MacDonald house and where did you find any items made of wax? Now, go room by room and tell us what you got, how you bagged it up, and what you did with it?
A I would have to review, perhaps, the documents in which the candles were picked up to see what date it was, but there were candles found, as I recall, in nearly every room -- in the living room, in the dining room, in the master bedroom, as I recall, I believe in the children's bedrooms.
Q Isn't it a matter of fact, Mr. Ivory, it was not until July or August of 1970, that you went back to the MacDonald house to collect items of wax that were existing in that home -- that is, candles and crayons and other matter?
A Yes. I believe that was upon request of the people at the CID lab that such candles be located and sent to them for comparison.
Q That was in the middle of the Article 32 proceedings that that happened; is that right?
A If you say it was about that time, sir. I can't disagree with you because I don't recall.
Q Well, I don't understand. Perhaps you can tell me how it was possible for you to tell us in such intimate detail on Friday, and in fact, part of Monday, the dates and places you recovered tons of little vials and bottles of debris that you don't even know what it is --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q -- but you just do not seem to know when exactly and where exactly you collected the wax from?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: Yes, I think that question is argumentative and I will SUSTAIN the OBJECTION.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, where is there any record of the dates upon which you went and collected wax from the MacDonald house?
A On any military police receipt for property or evidence receipt as it is generally known as that was used to transmit the documents to the lab.
Q I am going to request, Mr. Ivory, will you please look for that tonight and see if you can find out because we will have a bit more cross-examination tomorrow and will you try to find that information for us?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Will you do that, sir?
A I am sorry. There has been an OBJECTION.
Q I can't hear you.
A I am waiting for a word from the OBJECTION that I heard from the table.

THE COURT: You are hoping they will OBJECT?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT to that characterization as well.

THE COURT: All right. The question is whether or not the witness will make a certain search for something during the overnight recess with the certain prospect that his cross-examination will not be terminated within normal business hours today and will be resumed tomorrow morning. The answer to that question I might say to the witness is simply, "If I care to, all right. If I don't, maybe not." I don't know. You just answer it if you want to. I will OVERRULE the OBJECTION and let you tell them whatever you feel about it.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right. Will you make an effort to find the information as to when you collected this material?
A Yes, sir, I will make an effort.
Q Now, you have told us that you spent a lot of your time collecting evidence to be sent to the laboratory?
A That is correct.
Q Did you read the laboratory reports when they came back in 1970?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Did you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, I want to call your attention to a CID consolidated lab report, Number 58, in connection with this case in which a comparison of wax was made with wax from known candles in the MacDonald house. Do you know anything about that consolidated lab report?
A I have seen that consolidated lab report, yes, sir.
Q You have, sir?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT to this line of questioning. It is going outside the scope.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the OBJECTION not necessarily on that ground but as being an improper way to get in evidence of some report.

MR. BLACKBURN: Thank you.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q If I were to suggest to you, Mr. Ivory, that the CID consolidated lab report Number 58 states that the samples of wax taken from the living room in the MacDonald house --

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: OBJECTION SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, he has already testified that he thought that these samples of the mysterious wax he found had been accounted for. I intend to show --

THE COURT: (Interposing) I SUSTAINED an OBJECTION in which you were going to ask him if he had read a report and if the report didn't say so and so as being an improper way to get that report before this jury not being something that he prepared himself. So, to suggest to him that the report might contain something is to do what I have said that you could not do, so I SUSTAIN that OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL: All right, Your Honor. We will return to that subject later.

THE COURT: That does not mean that there are not other ways in which it can be done.

MR. SEGAL: I appreciate that, Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, you are sitting in front of a diagram that the Government has marked and you have described as purporting to be the way the body of Colette MacDonald was seen by you when you came into the house. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you turn around for a moment and take a good look at it? I want to ask you now, Mr. Ivory, is that the way you remember Mrs. MacDonald's body being on the floor of the master bedroom?
A Sir, I think I said that that was generally the position the body was in when I first saw it.
Q What does "generally in the position" mean to you?
A "Generally" means "not exactly."
Q What is not the same on that drawing as in your memory of the way she was lying on the floor?
A The arm is in a little different position.
Q Excuse me. What arm are you referring to and point to it?
A I was just getting to that, sir.
Q Okay. Maybe the pointer will help you.
A Thank you very much, sir. The left arm is not exactly in the position, as I recall. It was perhaps swung out a little bit more in that direction. This hand was perhaps a little bit tighter to the body. The feet here are spread more than I recall having seen them as I could see the soles of the feet of Colette's body.
Q Will you hold it right there? I did not know that you were going to make that many corrections. We will have to do it differently.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. Don't consider that. That assumes that corrections are made and so forth. Don't comment. Just ask your questions, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I would like to ask, if you would, on a sheet of plastic that I am going to overlay on the Government Exhibit so that we don't damage it in any way, mark what you think would be the correct position. Just outline the corrections that you think belong there.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would like to request at this time, since this witness has already identified the photographs of the body of Colette MacDonald as the way that he saw her first in that bedroom, that he be allowed to look at that.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. If you want him to look at the photographs, I think that determination should be made by him. If he has a recollection, all right. If he doesn't, he is at liberty to ask for something that would refresh his recollection.

THE WITNESS: Sir, I was about to ask for that.

MR. SEGAL: If we could do it in two steps.

THE COURT: Do it.

MR. SEGAL: May we do it first of all, Your Honor, to place the piece of plastic on the -- I am going to need a second piece of plastic, please.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, Mr. Ivory, what photographs would you like to see in order to help you --
A If I could screen those photographs of the master bedroom with the body in place and take one or more of them to use as a reference.
Q Do you want Mr. Squires' photos?
A Yes, sir.
Q Let me offer you the book. (Witness examines photographs.)
A If I may, I would like to use the Government Exhibit 44, Government Exhibit 42. I think that should be sufficient.
Q Are there any other photos you want to look at. Had you looked at 45, 44, and 48?
A 45, I don't think would be of any help; 36, no; 40, also, perhaps.
Q And Number 39, by any chance?
A Perhaps. It is more of a distant shot; it is hard to really make a good comparison here between that -- of course, perhaps this photograph that is Government Exhibit 39 may show the upper portions of the legs to be a little bit closer together; but it does illustrate the exposure of the soles of the feet where the diagram, while quite good, does not exactly depict it as does Government Exhibit 40. Are there any others you would care for me to --
Q No, I only offer those as the ones I as being relevant to Mrs. MacDonald's body.
Now, would you take that red magic marker, on the overlay, please, make corrections as you think more accurately reflect the position that Mrs. MacDonald's body was in when you first saw it?
A It will be remembered that I'm one of the many, many people in the world who can't draw a line without a ruler.
Q I know it's not easy, but I would appreciate whatever help you can give us, Mr. Ivory.
A I really don't know how I can illustrate this with the feet, except by showing the photographs.
Q You mean the soles of her feet?
A Yes.
Q I'm only interested -- is the picture that is shown there, that drawing -- I ask whether that accurately represented the way Mrs. MacDonald's body was on the floor if you were in some position more or less standing over her and looking down; and my understanding was that you thought there were some corrections you wanted to make in it?
A Very minor ones. As I say, it is a very good general depiction of the position of the body as it lay on the floor.
Q Then you don't want to make any corrections?
A As I indicated, perhaps this arm may have been extended perhaps a little bit more like this, and the feet -- instead of being spread with just a side view of the feet, I could readily see the soles of the feet. This arm is perhaps a little bit tighter to the body than that. Other than that, as I recall and by refreshing my recollection with the photos, very minor changes in this, as you can see.
Q Essentially, then, it is the position of the two arms that are little different, and that you say the soles of the feet would have been turned upward, is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Anything else that you would change or in any way correct about the way the body is shown there?
A Well, perhaps on the pajama shirt, perhaps a little more of the upper chest was exposed.
Q Now, you have made a mark there as to what you think was the portion of the upper chest that was exposed?
A That is correct.
Q Anything else?
A No, sir, not that I can readily see right now.
Q Would you be good enough in the lower right-hand corner, perhaps, to put your initials and put today's date there? (Witness complies.)

MR. SEGAL: That may be valuable some day. All right, thank you, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, when you saw Mrs. MacDonald's body for the first time, you saw several items that were lying across the body; didn't you?
A That is correct.
Q One of them was a blue pajama top; correct?
A That is correct.
Q And another was a bathmat -- a white bathmat?
A That is correct.
Q Did you also observe a number of puncture marks or wounds on Mrs. MacDonald's body?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were some of those round puncture marks as if they had been made with an ice pick?
A Yes, sir.
Q And those were in the area of the upper left breast; weren't they?
A Let me refer again to the photograph. Yes, sir.
Q You were able to observe those when the pajama top was lying across her body?
A I observed some punctures to the upper chest and in the neck area; yes, sir.
Q The blue pajama top did not cover those puncture wounds; did it? Don't look at the picture right now -- just close it, please. I would like your memory if you have one on the subject.
A The question, please?
Q Yes, sir. The blue pajama top -- it did not cover most of the puncture wounds; did it?
A No, sir; not at that time.
Q I missed your answer.
A No, sir; not at that time.
Q It didn't cover at that time. Did it cover at some other time?
A Perhaps, sir. I did not see it covering those punctures in the chest.
Q So, then, wouldn't the correct answer be "no," it did not cover most of the puncture wounds?
A Correct.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, he answered it. He said not at that time.

MR. SEGAL: I don't understand how it could have crawled around, Your Honor.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: That is not an issue in the case whether it crawled around or not. There is no evidence concerning that. Don't consider that, members of the jury.

MR. SEGAL: One second, please.

(Pause.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, how many puncture wounds were there in the upper left breast area of Mrs. MacDonald?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Why?

MR. BLACKBURN: This witness has only said he saw puncture wounds. There is no indication --

THE COURT: (Interposing) I will let him tell how many he saw, if he remembers.

THE WITNESS: Sir, I did not count them, I just saw that there were several punctures in the upper chest, and in the neck area.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, you know what the number of puncture wounds were found later on, don't you?
A I don't recall specifically the number, but yes, sir, I did subsequently learn of the specific number.
Q Approximately how many in that particular area of her body, if you know?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will let him answer, if he knows.

THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. I would take a guess at about 16. That is a number that for some reason comes to mind.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The majority of those wounds were not covered by the blue pajama top, were they?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT. He stated that he did not count them.

THE COURT: I will let the witness testify as to what he knows. I am going to assume that there will be some pathologist testimony or somebody who will be able to give us an accurate count of these things.

MR. BLACKBURN: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: When I first learned of the correct number and location of the injuries on the chest, there were three photos exposed during the autopsy and I had no direct knowledge at that time when I saw the body clothed as to where all the wounds were.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let's go back again to the date on which we took your sworn statement on July 5th, 1970, and I want to direct your attention to page 50 of that. I'm going to read you some question and answers that perhaps will serve to refresh your recollection or you will accept as the stenographer's version; is that all right?
A That is agreeable; yes, sir.
Q Question at line 22, let me ask you this: "Question: Do you happen to know where any ice pick punctures were in the body of Colette MacDonald? Answer: Yes, in the chest brassiere." Does that sound familiar to you?
A Sir, there were a number of words in that transcript that are not accurate. That is one particular word that is not accurate. I don't recall what word I used, but I would not have used that word.
Q Then you think that, perhaps, the official reporter was incorrect in reporting that statement?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you say there were a number of words I read to you today that are incorrect?
A No, sir; I did not say that.
Q Well, you just don't remember using those words?
A Sir, I have reviewed that transcript, and there are some words that I do not recall having used. "Brassiere," I would not have used. I may have said "breast area"; I would not have said "brassiere."
Q What transcript have you reviewed?
A A copy of that which you have in your hand.
Q You mean the July 5th, 1970, interview?
A The one we held in the General Court Martial room?
Q Yes?
A With yourself and the other attorneys?
Q Yes?
A The stenographer?
Q You have reviewed that?
A The very one, sir.
Q All right. But you disagree with the stenographer's recording of the word "brassiere"?
A I certainly do. I would have no reason to use such a term. I'm sure, in my mind, that in that statement, I probably said "breast area."
Q Well, if the stenographer perhaps mis-heard your words trailing off the end, would you agree that perhaps what you really said was: "Yes, in the chest's breast area?" Would that make sense?
A That would make sense.
Q You think that would be the correct version of what you said then?
A It would make more sense than to say "brassiere," yes, sir.
Q All I want to know is, are you suggesting that was your answer. If you do, I will accept it also, sir.
A I will accept that as probably having been my answer.
Q Let me re-read it as you have corrected it?
A Please.
Q "Question: Let me ask you this. Do you happen to know where any ice pick punctures were in the body of Colette MacDonald? Answer: Yes, in the chest breast area." Does that sound familiar, and are you willing to accept that answer as amended?
A I am willing to accept that; yes, sir.
Q "Question: Do you know if that, the area of Colette MacDonald which had the puncture wounds, is the area which is covered by the blue shirt in the photograph? Answer: No, they were not directly. It may be on some of the punctures, but the majority are not covered by the pajama shirt." Do you recall that question and having given that answer, or will you accept this answer?
A I will accept that as being my answer.
Q Now, you ascertained that those pajama tops had belonged to Dr. MacDonald, didn't you?
A That is correct.
Q What happened to the pajama bottoms?
A As I recall, having learned when he was wheeled into the emergency room for treatment that evening, they were removed from his body or from his person by medical personnel who immediately discarded them.
Q And you, of course, had sent some CID agent or one of those MPs who were standing around so much of the time over to the hospital to recover it, didn't you?
A No, sir. I did not.
Q You made no effort to get the pajama bottoms, you are telling us?
A That is what I am telling you.
Q You have no idea what the pajama bottoms contained in the way of blood --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION, Your Honor. Your Honor, we will OBJECT. He has stated the pajama bottoms were discarded.

MR. SEGAL: That doesn't mean he doesn't have any idea what they contained.

THE COURT: Let's start with this. Did you ever see those pajama bottoms?

THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I did not.

THE COURT: I think that answers your other question. Ask him something else.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Did you ever make any effort to try and locate those pajama bottoms?
A I did not personally, but there were efforts made to recover them.
Q And, if you know, tell us who made those efforts so we can ask the right person some time.
A A search for them was caused by the people back in the CID office. I don't know who -- probably Mr. Grebner or perhaps one of the other people who were working the Operations Center there. I don't know who caused the search to be made, but it was reported to me that a search had been made.
Q When you saw Dr. MacDonald's body being wheeled out of the house, you were unable to ascertain anything about him other than that his head was showing, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q His eyes were shut?
A That is correct.
Q You have no idea whether there was any fragile evidence on his body under the sheet, did you?
A No, I did not.
Q You did not know whether there was a knife sticking in him or out of him, did you?
A No, I did not.
Q Why did you not send the CID agent or an MP to the hospital to stand by --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION.

Q -- to stand by while they uncovered him and recover any such evidence?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q What was your answer?
A There was no other CID agent available to send. I did not send another MP along with the ambulance to recover anything as I had no indication that there were any items of fragile evidence under that sheet.
Q How did you decide that there were no indications there might be fragile evidence on him?
A I just had no indication that there was.
Q You don't know whether any fibers were on his body, do you?
A No, sir. I don't.
Q Have you never been involved in an investigation where the investigators want the bullet taken right from the body of a victim or a suspect turned over into their hands? Have you ever been in that kind of investigation?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you do what -- you send an investigator or an MP or somebody who can take that item straight from the doctor's hand back to your office for an investigation. You know about that, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you don't have any explanation why you did not do it in this case?
A I had no indication he had been shot.
Q That is the whole reason, is that it?
A I had no indication, sir, that there was any evidence on his body. I saw that the medical personnel were removing him. I observed that his eyes were closed and I assumed they wanted to get him to the hospital as soon as possible. That is why I did not talk to him. I did not even know that he was conscious. I did not send anybody along with him. I just did not.
Q Would it be fair to say that this is another example of you assuming that there was no evidence to be gathered that way?
A Yes, sir.
Q And, in fact, you would very much have liked, later on, to have had the blue pajama bottoms, wouldn't you?
A There is general practice in assault cases, rape cases, murder cases, that items of clothing like that would be retained by the medical personnel in the hospital. However, this was not done.
Q Why did you rely upon other people to do the work of the chief or leading investigator?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT.

THE COURT: I will let him answer that question. I usually let a witness answer any "why" question, because any answer that he gives is correct.

MR. BLACKBURN: We withdraw our OBJECTION.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Give us the correct answer.
A I could not be every place at once. I had to concentrate my efforts on one particular area and I felt in my mind that the most important area was in that house.

THE COURT: Now we are going to concentrate our efforts on going home. Members of the jury, please remember, you don't talk about this case among yourselves or with others. Don't let anybody talk about it anywhere around you. Keep open minds about it. And above all, don't look at, listen to, or read anything about it. We will take an overnight recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I am going to let the jury go and then everybody else can go. Have a good night, a safe trip home and back. Be back at 9:30.

(Jury exits at 5:00 p.m.)

THE COURT: He wants to talk about something about his own scheduling and I have told him that, to that extent, it is permissible to talk to government Counsel about his case.

MR. SEGAL: I have no objection, Your Honor. I have a brief matter. I just want to move into evidence the photographs that we have marked this afternoon for the defendant, if I could.

THE COURT: You are going to start offering evidence now?

MR. SEGAL: The photographs -- yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, it seems to me that the defense could wait until the defense case started.

THE COURT: It would seem to me so too. But he wants to do it right now.

MR. BLACKBURN: We would OBJECT and ask him to wait until it is his turn.

MR. SEGAL: All right. I will wait for my turn, Your Honor.

THE COURT: He sustained your OBJECTION.

MR. BLACKBURN: Thank you.

THE COURT: He wanted to know whether or not to tell them whether held be back for Thanksgiving or Christmas.

MR. BLACKBURN: There is a serious problem, Your Honor. This is perhaps the best time. Prior to this witness' testimony --

THE COURT: (Interposing) All right, now look. If it is a serious problem -- if it is so serious that it is going to interrupt some schedule or something that ought to be adhered to, we can stay here until 12:00 o'clock tonight or tomorrow tonight --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) Excuse me, Mr. Ivory, you can correct me if I am mistaken, is scheduled to return to Germany on a flight tomorrow night. I don't know the time. He would like if possible because he has commitments back there at the office that he is involved in running, he would like to meet that schedule. I would like to accommodate him if possible.

THE COURT: I think Mr. Segal would be through with him by noon. He has already had him about a day and a half. So, you will certainly be through by noon tomorrow. Two days and he might even be getting tired.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor anticipates exactly my own expectation. I think by noon, perhaps sooner -- I don't think really beyond lunch break tomorrow.

THE COURT: There won't be any redirect because there won't be anything left to ask him. Take a recess until 9:30, please.

(The proceeding was adjourned at 5:03 p.m., to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on Wednesday, July 25, 1979.)


Note from Christina Masewicz: The Court Reporter's misspelling of "Graebner" was corrected to read Grebner in the above transcript.


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