ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS: JULY 9, 1970
Robert Shaw (Warrant Officer 1) Escorts Colonel Rock, his Legal
Advisor, Defense Counsel, Reporter and Jeffrey MacDonald
through the Crime Scene
COL ROCK: Gentleman, I now wish to inform both counsel that at 1330 hours today I shall view the scene of the alleged crime at 544 Castle Drive. In attendance will be counsel for both sides and the accused. Mr. Robert Shaw of the Criminal Investigation Division at Fort Bragg will act as escort officer. Throughout the viewing of the scene I may have questions to ask Mr. Shaw. If so, each question and each answer will be transcribed verbatim. However, in the interest of efficient operation, if counsel for either side have questions, they will write said questions and ask them at a later date when Mr. Shaw is called to testify in the hearing. If there are no further matters to be brought before the session we will adjourn until 1330.
MR. SEGAL: Might we have leave to submit in writing any particular points of observation we would like the investigating officer to make this afternoon -- at this afternoon's viewing. I propose perhaps note possibly two or three items, but they will be in writing with a copy to counsel for the government so that if we have occasion to refer to some point which has not been previously pointed out, the investigating officer will not need a hiatus to re-examine.
COL ROCK: A very good point. Counsel for both sides may do so. If counsel for the government would like to do the same, then he may do so. We will all meet at the house.
The investigation is recessed.
(The hearing recessed at 1150 hours, 9 July 1970.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1335 hours, 9 July 1970 at 544 Castle Drive, Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Present were Colonel Rock, his legal advisor, counsel for both sides, the accused, recorder, and Mr. Robert Shaw of the CID and the first question is asked outside the windows at the front of the house.)
COL ROCK: Have the bars been placed on the windows by the CID?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir, they have. The bars were placed there to secure the windows.
COL ROCK: Oh, they have. I see. It appears rather rusty.
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: The bars referred to are those on the front window adjacent to the front door on the lower floor. The same is true on all windows?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
(The IO then moved around the house to the right and is standing at the rear corner to the left of the back door.)
MR. SHAW: Sir, I might point out that this bush and the others have filled out to a large extent. These bushes here (pointing to the right of the rear door) were almost nonexistent. They were that high (indicating two feet) and they were that way in April, but since that time they have grown and filled out.
COL ROCK: I see. Okay, let's go inside.
(Now in the utility Room.)
COL ROCK: This represents substantially the condition of the -- of all rooms in the house as we visit them?
MR. SHAW: Yes, with one exception; that those items we've collected as evidence are not here.
COL ROCK: Right.
MR. SHAW: Those items that have been released to Captain MacDonald are not here.
COL ROCK: Affirmative.
(The IO viewed the bath off the utility room, the master bedroom, the front bedroom, the center bathroom and the hallway.)
COL ROCK: Was that open? (Indicating an opening in the ceiling in the hallway.)
MR. SHAW: That was opened to allow some air into the house.
(The IO then visited the rear bedroom and moved into the living room.)
COL ROCK: Do you have any way of knowing, Mr. Shaw, if the same bulbs are in here that were in here at the time?
MR. SHAW: To the best of my knowledge, they are all the same, yes, sir.
COL ROCK: In other words it would be approximately the same wattage or should be?
MR. SHAW: Yes, I think they are the same bulbs.
COL ROCK: Then they would be identical. For instance, if this complex here (indicating a ceiling light in the dining area) and perhaps one had burned out, you wouldn't now necessarily know that, would you?
MR. SHAW: There were no bulbs burned out at the time. If they had been replaced since then, I would have a way to find out, yes, sir.
COL ROCK: Right, you would know.
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: There would normally be no reason to replace them, would there, unless it was burned out?
MR. SHAW: Unless it was burned out, that's correct.
COL ROCK: People normally contact you if a bulb was to be exchanged?
MR. SHAW: Only myself and one other man would have access to the apartment.
COL ROCK: Where is the phone in the kitchen?
(The IO standing in the doorway to the kitchen.)
MR. SHAW: To your right, sir.
COL ROCK: Has this door been taken off, or was that -- (Indicating a door to a cabinet.)
MR. SHAW: That has been taken off, yes, sir, and sent to laboratory.
COL ROCK: I would like to know if this light out here works. (Indicating a light outside the kitchen door.) There must be a switch someplace.
(A man was sent out to see if the outside light worked and it was determined that the back light was burned out.)
MR. SHAW: Sir, on the exterior lights, Mrs. Kalin, next door, told me that she has changed the lights two or three times because they want them to keep burning.
COL ROCK: I see. Now which lights?
MR. SHAW: I don't know. I do know that the one light out here was burning that morning. This light … (Pointing to the front of the house.)…was burning. Now whether the kitchen light was burning, I don't know.
COL ROCK: I'm not really interested on what was occurring at that time. I am asking what the conditions are currently and whether the switches operate.
COL ROCK: Mr. Segal, I believe you said you had a list of points which you wish to bring to my attention.
MR. SEGAL: Would you indulge us for one moment, Counsel, there are a couple of things I want to put in writing.
I submit these questions to you now in writing and Captain Somers may examine them.
COL ROCK: Let the record reflect that Mr. Segal, as had been indicated prior to arrival here at the house, has submitted to the investigating officer, certain points which he wishes to have observed during my stay here at 544 Castle Drive. The first item he has requested is that I examine the lamp on the dining buffet.
(The IO did as requested.)
COL ROCK: The next item I have been requested to observe are scratch marks on the right arm of the rocking chair next to the coffee table. Does this light work? (Indicating the ceiling light in the living room, and it did not.)
COL ROCK: Does either counsel object if I move this chair to some light? Counsel for the defense or counsel for the government?
MR. SEGAL: The counsel for the defense does not object.
CPT SOMERS: No, sir. The light is now on incidentally, if you will take notice.
COL ROCK: Mr. Shaw, has this chair remained on the premises ever since the alleged crime?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
CPT SOMERS: Sir, I think Mr. Shaw can tell you even more about this chair than that, in particular.
COL ROCK: Well, I am not interested in more than that particular one observation at this time. The next item I have been asked is to observe the new growth on the branches of the bush under which the ice pick was allegedly found. I have already examined that growth and an explanation has been presented by Mr. Shaw also concerning this growth.
Q -- Has any part of this house been rearranged within the last forty-eight hours? I assume you mean, Mr. Segal, furniture arrangements?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: Has any part of the furnishings been rearranged within the last forty-eight hours?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: For what reason?
MR. SHAW: So that during the visit of the investigating officer the scene would approximate that which I observed on the 17th of February.
COL ROCK: Final question -- has any part of the house been rearranged for the purposes of viewing the house by the 32 investigating officer; if yes, when? I think the prior answers that question satisfactorily.
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, it does, thank you.
COL ROCK: Mr. Shaw, do you swear that all the evidence you have given here in this case is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MR. SHAW: I do, sir.
COL ROCK: I have completed my examination of the interior. Mr. Segal and Captain Somers, I have one other question that I wish to ask Mr. Shaw. Mr. Shaw, does some occupant live in the upstairs room which is apparently over the kitchen living room area of Captain MacDonald's quarters?
(The IO is now outside the rear of the MacDonald residence.)
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir. That set of quarters is occupied by CW3 Kalin and the particular portion of his residence you mentioned is on the second floor. It covers the kitchen, dining room and living room of the MacDonald residence, which is occupied by two dependent children.
COL ROCK: I am satisfied with my examination. Is there any further reason that you gentlemen wish to stay any longer?
CPT SOMERS: I have none.
MR. SEGAL: I have nothing else, sir, at this time.
COL ROCK: All right then this portion of the hearing will be recessed until we can move back to the hearing room.
(The hearing recessed at 1415 hours, 9 July 1970.)