The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.

The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

July 5, 1970: Pre-Article 32 Defense questioning of Robert Shaw, CID


Re: United States of America vs. Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald

This statement is being taken in the General Courts Martial Courtroom, Fort Bragg, commencing at 1:30 p.m., Sunday, July 5, 1970.
Present are Dennis H. Eisman and Bernard Segal, civilian counsel for Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald; Captain James Douthat and Lieutenant Michael Malley, assigned Military Defense Counsel.

ATTORNEY EISMAN: Mr. Shaw, give your full name and position for the record?

MR. SHAW: Robert B. Shaw, Criminal Investigator, Fort Bragg Criminal Investigation Division office.

ATTORNEY EISMAN: Captain Douthat, would you please swear the witness.

Robert B. Shaw, being duly sworn by Captain Douthat, gave the following answers to questions propounded as indicated:

Q Mr. Shaw, how long have you been with the Criminal Investigation Division?
A Since 1962.
Q How long have you been at Fort Bragg?
A One year this month.
Q Did you have occasion to become involved in the matter of United States of America vs. Jeffrey MacDonald?
A Yes, I did.
Q When was the first time you had a connection with this matter?
A At about 0425 on 17 February, I was called at my quarters by Investigator Ivory.
Q Where are your quarters?
A On Fort Bragg.
Q What did you do then?
A Well, he stated to me that there had been some killings and he gave me the address on Castle Drive and said he needed assistance, that he had called other Investigators also. So I dressed and went to the office and got my investigator kit and went to Castle Drive.
Q Approximately what time did you arrive?
A About 0445, give or take five minutes.
Q Who was present at the time you arrived?
A Major Parson from the provost marshal office and an MP Sergeant was standing inside of the front door when we got there. Mr. Ivory was there. Mr. Connolly was there, another Criminal Investigator, and there were several persons outside, military police and I think one ambulance.
Q Were its crew still there or had they returned?
A I don't know.
Q Was Captain MacDonald still there?
A No, he was gone.
Q Do you know how many people had been in the premises before you arrived, other than people you described, MPs, medics, anybody in response to that call, like that?
A Did I know at that time?
Q No, do you know now?
A I could name some names of people that I think were there, by files only.
Q Approximately how many people were there, if you can give us an approximate figure?
A Inside?
Q Yes.
A About six.
Q This is according to your knowledge of the case, is that correct? In other words, if anybody, either Mr. Ivory or Mr. Grebner, had said they think probably, including ambulance drivers and MPs, a total of fifteen people there before they came on the scene, you would not say that is incorrect, would you?
A I answer your question on this basis: if I talk to MP Jones and he said MP Smith was there and I talk to MP Smith, then I know two people were there. Before I talk to Smith, I only know Jones was there. I heard that figure fifteen somewhere and if they said that, and they verified it, I assume it is so.
Q You are just speaking of your own personal knowledge when you say six?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could have been more, you are not denying the presence of other people?
A That is correct.
Q What did you do when you arrived at the scene?
A Well, when I first arrived at the scene, I entered by the south entrance, as I said, and the first thing I remember doing is asking Major Parson how many other entrances are there and he said to me "two," and I asked if they were being guarded by military policemen and then I asked him if the scene in general was being guarded and he said yes; I later verified that this was the case. And then I walked through the scene, without touching anything or disturbing anything because I did not know what was involved, and I walked back to the east bedroom where I contacted Criminal Investigator Ivory and he told me the information he had to that time.
Q The east bedroom would also be described as the master bedroom, where the body of Colette MacDonald was?
A Correct.
Q What did you do then with reference to this case?
A Well, because Ivory was the investigator on duty, and it was technically his, so to speak, his responsibility, I asked him what he wanted me to do, how could I assist him, and he said to me, "Please take one of the bedrooms," meaning either the north or south bedroom, "and begin to process for evidence." And so I told him all right and I went to the south bedroom and started making observations.
Q Now, who was in the south bedroom?
A There was one bed and a Caucasian child in the bed, identified as Kimberly MacDonald.
Q That is the older of the two children?
A Older of the two children.
Q Now, pursuant to your investigation, what did you find in that room of interest to you or the Criminal Investigation Division, with reference to this case?
A Well, I found, as I said, a body of the girl in the bed; at that point, of course, I had no idea what was of interest and what not of interest. I made an attempt to record everything that I could see about this place, the position of the body, which I marked on the bed, what was there in the form of debris, if you will, dirt, chalk marks, wax or hair, fibers, anything and everything.
Q You marked the position on the bed. Did you do that before the child was removed or after?
A Well, before; this was a two-step process, because the child was partially wrapped and covered with blankets. I marked the position of the body that was exposed, which would be the upper torso of the body and arms, and then later, sometime later I pulled the blankets back to the foot of the bed and marked the position of the lower body, and when I say marked it, I did this on the bottom sheet of the bed with a felt pencil.
Q Was there a considerable amount of blood on that bed?
A Oh, quite a bit.
Q I am going to show you a picture marked Exhibit Number 14 and ask you what you see there?
A Well, this picture was exposed on 17 February, by Mr. Squires from the Post Photo Lab, and it depicts the body of Kimberly MacDonald in place as it was found by me from the north side of the bed. It shows this particular portion of the bed and room before it was disturbed in any manner by investigators, medics or anyone else coming on the scene.
Q I am going to show you another photograph, marked Number 3, and ask you to describe what that is?
A Well, this is again a photograph of the body of Kimberly MacDonald, exposed from the position of the camera would be the southeast corner of the bed. Again, this picture was taken before anything was moved in that room.
Q When you say the pictures were taken before anything was moved, that is anything moved in your presence or that you have personal knowledge? You would not have personal knowledge or you did not see it until the time you got there as to what had been done with these bodies, did you, if anything?
A I only know what happened after I got there.
Q So you wouldn't know whether or not anybody was in there from the time the first MP arrived until the time you arrived and had done anything with reference to touching these bodies or seeing whether they were alive or dead or any way move these bodies, would you?
A That is correct.
Q Have you interviewed everyone to your knowledge who was in that bedroom --
A No.
Q -- before you got there? So, you wouldn't know whether or not anyone else had moved or any way touched this body from the time that MPs first arrived until the time you got there?
A Are you talking about personal knowledge or what I have been told?
Q I first mean of personal knowledge, and speaking with anybody who was there?
A Well, let me clear up what I mean, then.
Q Go on.
A I have talked to a couple of MPs who say they were in the room, or looked in the room and did something, and by the same token, I know that either Ivory or Grebner or other investigators have talked to other MPs who say that they looked in the room and stepped in the room and flashed a light in the bed; so from what I have been told and personal knowledge, is the way I answer this question. Now I know that after I arrived, from personal knowledge, no one disturbed this scene between that time and the time the pictures were taken.
Q Do you know whether anybody checked, when the MPs arrived, to see whether the child was alive or dead?
A To the best of my knowledge, no one checked the child.
Q No one checked the pulse to see whether the child was still living and needed medical assistance?
A To the best of my knowledge, they did not.
Q What did you do next with reference to this investigation?
A Next after -- ?
Q After you were in the room and marked the scene?
A Well, while I was doing this, Ivory came to me and said a search of the outside of the quarters was being organized, because the rain had lessened somewhat, and I believe it was beginning to be light, and asked for my assistance in the search.
Q You say it was raining. Was it raining when you arrived on the scene?
A Yes, it was.
Q What type of rain was it, heavy rain?
A By that time it was a light drizzle.
Q Had it been raining throughout the evening to your knowledge, or throughout the night?
A I do not know. I was awakened by Ivory's telephone call; when I went outside it was raining a little bit, as I say, a light drizzle, and it appeared it had been raining because it was very wet.
Q When you got there, did you see evidence of either mud or tracks through the house, which might have been caused by somebody coming in from the outside?
A I saw what I thought was caused by outsiders coming in, yes. That would be leaves and that sort of debris, carried in footwear from the outside.
Q Would you know whether or not that was done by MPs or done by some persons as described by Captain MacDonald, who he said were in his house; any way for you to know that?
A Not for sure.
Q All right, you said something about organizing a search for weapons. Were you present when any weapons were found?
A Well, this search wasn't primarily for weapons, just a search for evidence.
Q Were you present when weapons were found?
A Yes, I was.
Q I am going to show you a photograph which has been supplied to us by the prosecuting attorney, marked Number 3, and ask you what that is, according to your knowledge in this case? This is also known as Exhibit A?
A This is a club-like stick that I found on the ground to the north of the quarters, which as I looked at it that evening, appeared to have red stains or red liquid stains and, as I say, it was very close to, it would be the northeast entrance to the quarters, close to the utility room. So I marked its position on the ground and collected it as evidence.
Q This object being shown in Exhibit A, in the photographs, do you have any information from anyone -- when I say "anyone," I mean anybody who has personal knowledge, that they saw the object in the MacDonald [household] before this incident or anywhere near it?
A No.
Q Do you have any information from [unreadable] an object like that around the MacDonald household before this incident?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Captain MacDonald.
Q What did Captain MacDonald tell you regarding any type of wood he might have had around the house?
A To the best of my knowledge, my recollection now, he said that he had several pieces of wood around the house; he had done some building and I think he mentioned shelves, specifically. He said he didn't remember this specific piece of wood but it could have been there, or might not. This is to my recollection.

Q Did you find any other pieces of wood around the house?
A Yes.
Q Where did you find any pieces of wood similar to that?
A Well, I found some pieces of wood that were similar -- there were similarities -- in the entrance [unreadable] crawl basin under the house. In the MacDonald [unreadable] storage room outside of the house and in [unreadable] south bedroom closet.
Q Now, with reference to those [unreadable] none of those objects were found to be coming from the same piece or section of a longer board, were they?
A That is correct.
Q Actually, there was no other piece of wood found in the house which could be described as coming from the same longer section; in other words, this was not cut from one part and something else inside, is that correct?
A That is what the laboratory arrived at.
Q So that none of these objects or pieces of wood which as we described, had any particular relation to this piece other than the fact that they were just pieces of wood, is that correct?
A No, that is not correct.
Q What --
A Well, you asked for similarities?
Q Right.
A One piece of wood in particular was found in the shelving that went in; from my observation, it looked to be the same color, the same confirmation -- not confirmation -- the grain structure seemed to be similar and it seemed, that is, the shape of the wood, the outside circumference of the wood appeared to be the same.
Q On a gross vision by yourself?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the laboratory report from [unreadable] stated that no piece of wood presented from the MacDonald household came from the same board that this came from --
A Just similar.
Q Is there any other two-by-two, whatever you would describe this piece of wood as, that is the same size approximately as any other board -- commercially manufactured board length of this size -- this would be a standard board size, wouldn't it?
A I am not a carpenter. I do not know; but I do know that the laboratory based this examination on growth rings, and their report to me was this piece of wood was not attached to any other piece of wood in the house. If it were, something was missing.
Q Was there any investigation to find out whether the wood came from the same source, same manufacturer, or anything like that?
A No, not by me.
Q Did the Criminal Investigation Division conduct any such investigation, to your knowledge?
A No.
Q Would you have known about it had they conducted that?
A I believe so, yes.

Q Would you describe how this wood felt to the touch and texture; would splinters come off in your hands when you rubbed them along?
A Well, I could tell you splinters probably could be removed, but I didn't touch it.

Q Do you know where splinters or suspected splinters from this piece of wood or other piece of wood were found in the house?
A To my direct knowledge there were some found in the south bedroom.
Q That was the bedroom which you described?
A Yes, Kimberly's.
Q Where were they found?
A On the northernmost pillow of the bed.
Q What did that mean to you when you found splinters of this object on the pillow, in relation to what you subsequently learned from [the] autopsy report regarding this child?
A This indicates to me this club was wielded in the south bedroom.
Q Now, do you know how many wounds this child suffered as a result of either this piece of wood or some other heavy object which had been used on her?
A I know of at least two and I suspect more.
Q Do you have any indication that this club was used on her anywhere else in the household?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where would that be?
A In the east bedroom.
Q That would be the master bedroom?
A Correct.
Q What from your investigation leads you to that conclusion?
A The child has a massive wound on her left cheek, which was inflicted with some heavy object, to the extent that it tore up a spur of bone in her left cheek bone; when I found her lying as depicted in the photographs you have shown me, she was on her left side, which would make the cheek down, and it has been determined that she has type AB blood and there was a rather significant amount of AB blood found on the floor in the master bedroom.
Q When you say a rather significant amount, what do you mean by that?
A Enough to indicate to me, to say to me, that the blood there came from direct bleeding and not from contamination from another object.
Q Is this your conclusion or is that the conclusion of a technician, hematologist, and conveyed to you? In other words, is it from your visual examination of the bloodstains which led you to this, or something else?
A My visual examination of the bloodstain and of course I discussed it with other people whose opinion I appreciate and respect and they have agreed with me, or they say they agree with me -- let's put it that way.

Q What are the dimensions of type AB blood spots found in the master bedroom?
A Across an area approximately five and a half inches in diameter.
Q One or more spots?
A Several spots.
Q What is the largest in diameter?
A Approximately the size of a quarter.
Q And how many were there of that size?
A If I gave you an answer to that now, Mr. Segal, I would be guessing. I do not remember.
Q Were there more than one to your recollection that was just quarter size?
A I don't remember.
Q How many spots would you say were there altogether of both large and small in this area, five and a half inch area you described?
A Half a dozen.

Q Any other type AB blood found in that master bedroom than what you have described to us?
A Yes, sir, there were.
Q Where?
A On a white towel draped across Mrs. MacDonald's abdomen area and on a sheet and on a bedcover, bedspread found on the floor of the master bedroom.
Q You said there was a white towel draped across the body of Mrs. MacDonald?
A Yes, sir -- I called it a towel; it could very well be a bathmat.
Q I am going to show you a photograph marked Number 1. Now, what is this Exhibit Number 1? What does this mean to you; what does it contain?
A This is a photograph depicting the body of Mrs. Colette MacDonald, as she appeared to be when I arrived on the scene.
Q All right, now, you describe some AB blood found on a bathmat covering the body. Could you please indicate what you are referring to when you say this?
A This is the white bathmat or towel I was referring to, covering her abdomen area.
Q Do you know how that object was placed on Colette's abdomen, from your investigation? I mean, has anybody said to you that they placed it on her body? I ask it that way.
A No.
Q Has Jeffrey MacDonald said he placed it on her body?
A To me, no.
Q Has he said he did to anyone?
A I have been told that he told Mr. Caverly of the FBI he placed it on her body during one of the interviews that were conducted; I do not know for sure.
Q Did place it or could have?
A I was told that he said he did. Now, I asked him that question and he said he had no knowledge; he didn't remember it.
Q That was part of your interrogation on April 6? You interrogated Captain MacDonald on April 6?
A I interviewed Captain MacDonald, yes.
Q I am interrogating you now. You can use whatever term you want, just different descriptions; but that interview was sometime after the incident and he told you that he had no knowledge how that object was placed there?
A That is correct.
Q And he denied any knowledge of how it could have been placed there, isn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did anyone else who was in that house on that night say or tell you or tell anyone else connected with the Criminal Investigation Division, how that object was placed there?
A No.
Q Other than what Captain MacDonald's statement was or what you think his statement was to Agent Caverly, what is your opinion as to how this object was placed there, from your investigation? Other than what Captain MacDonald said, do you have any other information?
A Are you saying why?
Q No, how was it placed?
A I have no idea.
Q By whom was it placed? Do you have any information independently of Captain MacDonald's alleged statement to Agent Caverly as to how, any scientific evidence as to who placed it there, which leads you to believe he placed it there?
A No.
Q But due to the fact that you found type AB blood, which is Kimberly's blood, on that towel, that also led you to conclude, or one of the factors that led you to conclude that she was killed in that room, is that correct?
A No, not correct. I do not think she was killed in that room and in fact her blood was found at the door where she was injured.
Q Where do you think she was injured?
A In the master bedroom.
Q That fact that she was some way injured in the doorway, does that [in] any way conflict with Captain MacDonald's version of this killing? Has Captain MacDonald ever told you he knew where his daughter was killed?
A No, he hasn't.
Q Of what significance do you think the fact that type AB blood was found in the master bedroom entrance, has to do with your opinion that Captain MacDonald was responsible for this?
A Would you repeat that, please?

ATTORNEY EISMAN: Read it back.

(Reporter complies.)

Q In other words, what is the significance, in regard to your opinion of the case, that there was, her blood was found in this bedroom and that she subsequently expired in her own bed?
A Yes, there is significance, because as one looks at Kimberly MacDonald, lying in her bed, dead, it would appear that she was killed in her sleep, and I think this is what we were supposed to believe, when in fact I believe she was injured in the master bedroom. So it would appear to me that she was injured in the master bedroom and moved to the south bedroom, injured there fatally and made to appear as though she had never left her bed.
Q Any expert opinion -- when I say experts from Fort Gordon or Fort Bragg, I mean any qualified hematologist or other type of trained experts who you have in your files, which says that this blood found in the master bedroom was not contamination and was in fact occasioned when she was injured there? In other words, you have said that you have spoken to people or you have gotten some expert opinion, what I am asking you, the direct question as to who, if anyone, or who are these individuals who have said that, other than yourself?
A There is no way, to the best of my knowledge, to determine whether a piece of blood -- in a contamination, of course, what we are talking about -- I elicited the opinions of other Criminal Investigators, for instance [the] pathologist and laboratory technicians at Fort Gordon and asked them their opinion.
Q Is that contained at all in your reports from the laboratory or was this just your discussion with them?
A My discussion with them, because it is strictly a matter of opinion, as far as I know; it can't be technically determined.
Q Is that recorded anywhere in the laboratory reports from Fort Gordon or any report from the forensic pathologists whom you have discussed the matter with?
A My conversation with them about this?
Q Your conversation or any report that they might have made about it?
A I do not think so.
Q Because of the fact that type AB blood was found on this bath towel, did you reach any conclusion as to whether the person who placed this bath towel had also touched Kimberly MacDonald?
A Most of the bloodstains on that towel, and there was other types of blood on it also, appeared to be wipe marks, which I conjecture to be the weapons used in this case, indicating that the weapons were wiped off on that towel. I do not know that the towel or have an opinion as to whether the towel actually came in contact with Kimberly MacDonald. I think that the weapon that killed Kimberly did come in contact with the towel.
Q And that is based on your information and knowledge about this case?
A That is correct.
Q And your experience; there is no expert opinion as to how those stains got on that particular bathmat, is there?
A No.

Q Mr. Shaw, you said a few minutes ago that you were of the opinion that Kimberly did not, in fact, receive fatal injuries in her own bedroom, but that in fact they were inflicted someplace else and she was then returned to her own bedroom. Am I correct in saying that you said that?
A Yes.
Q And I thought I heard you also say that that was for the purpose of making the investigators believe that she had been killed in her own bedroom. Am I correct in stating that?
A That is correct.
Q Would you tell me on what you base your opinion that someone did either of those things, if in fact they happened at all, for the purpose of misleading investigators?
A I am not sure what you mean when you say that.
Q You stated in your answer before that you pieced together just what you called the sequence here of an injury inflicted on the child other than in her bedroom?
A Yes.
Q That she was then, in your opinion, returned to her own bedroom?
A (Affirmative nod.)
Q Is that right?
A Yes.
Q And that that was done to make it appear -- I believe those were your words -- that she had in fact been fatally injured in her own bedroom rather than fatally injured in the master bedroom, is that what you have concluded?
A Yes.
Q What I want to know is, what is the basis for your opinion that someone was trying to lead investigators to believing that she was killed in her own bedroom, if you think there is evidence to the contrary?
A Well, I think the killer was trying to set up a false set of circumstances to be reconstructed by the investigators in this case, and just that.

Q What possible motive would Jeffrey MacDonald -- assuming your theory is that he did it -- that is your theory, isn't it? I assume that is why we are here. Assuming that Jeffrey MacDonald did it, what possible motive would he have for removing the child from the master bedroom and placing her back in her own bed and making it appear like she was killed in her own bed? Do you have any possible motive for that?
A Well, I know that he has told us and others, that during the time he was being attacked he heard his oldest daughter, Kimberly, screaming or calling, yelling in her bedroom.
Q He said he heard her yelling in the bedroom and he said he knew where she was yelling from?
A That was the impression I received from what he said. You have copies of his statement. So in my opinion that places her in her own bedroom, according to his statement, and under some kind of stress. As to why he would stage this scene, specifically this way, I do not know. I have no opinion about it.

Q You say that he said he heard her in one place in the house rather than being in the other? The two bedrooms, the door or the east bedroom is not that far from the south bedroom. Did he distinctly say he could distinguish where he heard her yelling?
A His statement to us was that he -- again, I am going on my recollection and you have the statement in writing, but his statement to us was, she was yelling from her bedroom and also in his opinion she wouldn't have left her bed under any circumstances.
Q That was his opinion?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say that he saw her in her bedroom or anything of that nature?
A No, absolutely not.

Q Did anybody ask how he had the opinion she was in one bedroom as opposed to another bedroom, considering where he was at the time he said he heard her voice?
A Not to my recollection, no.
Q Is there any reason why anybody didn't ask him how he thought he could distinguish where her voice was coming from?
A Well, there were several things we wanted to ask Captain MacDonald, but he decided he didn't want to discuss it with us any longer.
Q Was that on the April date when he gave his rather lengthy interview that he decided he would not answer those questions?
A They weren't posed to him at that time.
Q My question is as to why not?
A Why not?
Q Why was he not asked either in April or any time between February 17 and April, as to how he thought he could distinguish what room she was calling from, considering the fact he was in the living room?
A I talked to Captain MacDonald only once and that was the April interview. As to why certain questions were or were not asked him, for that I have no idea. On this particular occasion I was more interested, as one of the three investigators talking to him, more interested in hearing what Captain MacDonald had to say as completely as possible, rather than trying to destroy what he was saying and trying to indicate to him that I didn't believe what he was saying, because I wanted to hear what he said, under as little stress as possible and that is why I didn't want to reiterate on a lot of things.

Q What questions do you want to ask that you were unable to ask him on that day? You do not have to go into exact details, but what area did you want to ask him about that you weren't able to ask him about, up until April 6, when he asked to be represented by counsel?
A I would have liked to discuss specifics as to his movements that evening, what transpired in his house between he and Colette while she was alive; I would have liked to discuss with him certain things concerning what happened during this attack that he allegedly sustained, the sequence of events, the number of persons in the house, exactly why they were in the house, that sort of thing.

Q You are under the impression that from February 17 until the April formal interview that you participated in, that Captain MacDonald had been spoken to on several occasions by both Criminal Investigators and FBI Investigators?
A That is correct.
Q Am I correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were of the opinion, though, that in April when you had your first opportunity to interview Captain MacDonald that he still not yet had been asked questions that you, yourself, wanted to reveal on this specific subject you just mentioned?
A To give you an honest answer, I have to explain to you that during most of this period you mentioned, while I had never seen Captain MacDonald first, my sole responsibility during most of that time was in examination of the crime scene and the things related to that physical evidence, that sort of thing. As far as what had been asked to Captain MacDonald and what had not been asked, what things had been gone over again with him, I really had no direct personal knowledge, and I went into the interview with Captain MacDonald back in April with the idea of first hearing what he had to say about it, seeing what, if anything, obviously conflicted with what we found at the scene, if anything. I again say that, and asking specific questions about specific essential items after that.

Q Any time during the investigation, did Captain MacDonald refuse to answer any questions regarding any matter that he was questioned about --

CAPTAIN DOUTHAT: Prior to the time he came to see me?

Q Prior to the time that he obtained counsel?
A Did he refuse to answer any questions? Not to my knowledge.
Q In that interview you had with him, which took a morning session and an afternoon session, had he refused to answer any questions, and not supplied you with information if he could appear to be able to?
A It appeared to me that Captain MacDonald was answering our questions as we asked them, and also indicating through his mannerisms and his way of answering, that he was confused and his memory was somewhat lacking in these areas.

Q At the end of your recessing on the 6th of April, was Captain MacDonald scheduled to have further interviews?
A Captain MacDonald was -- left our office with the idea that he would submit to a polygraph examination.
Q And will you tell me when the announcement was made over the radio and press that he was a suspect; was it that evening?
A I have no personal knowledge. I don't know. I was told the next day when I got into the office, I was told that an announcement had been made on the radio. I did not hear it and I didn't see it on the TV. I think that is pretty much a matter of record.

Q Did you interview other people regarding this matter?
A Yes. Other than Captain MacDonald?
Q Other than Captain MacDonald, yes.
A Yes, I did.
Q Approximately how many other people?
A Six or seven.
Q Who are they?
A You don't mean suspects?
Q No.
A You just mean witnesses. All right. Military policemen, Mike [sic] Tevere, Paulk, Morris and Mr. and Mrs. Kassab, and to the best of my recollection right now, those are the only people that I personally interviewed other than MacDonald.
Q The first four people you mentioned, other than Mr. and Mrs. Kassab, what relation are they in the case, generally speaking?
A They are military policemen, who were on the scene at the time of its discovery.
Q Before you arrived?
A Yes.
Q What was the purpose of these interviews?
A To attempt to establish what, if anything, had altered about the crime scene prior to my arrival and prior to the arrival of Ivory.
Q Now, will you take each on of them, please, and tell us what, if anything, they knew about the scene or whether they knew anything, or if any unauthorized personnel were present, other than military police and ambulance drivers?
A First of all, they stated to me there were no unauthorized personnel; everyone in the house there was either a policeman, medic, or was there at the behest of one of the two, that person being Mr. Kalin, whom I think was asked to come in or did come in at the behest of Lieutenant Paulk.

CAPTAIN DOUTHAT: Was anybody in there out of uniform?

A Out of uniform?

Q Not in fatigues, khaki, appropriate military, or white dress for the ambulance drivers, say?
A Not that I saw. Of course Mr. Kalin was in night dress; and -- this is secondhand -- I am told that one of the MPs thinks that he saw a medic that might have had Levi pants on, and when I say medic, it indicates he had on [a] white top. Now what that says for that fellow's recollection, I do not know. I do not have any opinion about it. But to go back to the original question, Tevere told me that he changed the position of the telephone in the master bedroom. I don't believe any of these people told me they turned the light on or off. Tevere also said that when he entered the living room of the quarters from the hallway, he specifically remembered a flower pot, a styrofoam pot, that apparently had a plant in it, as being on its side; and of course, when the photographs were taken, it seems to be standing up. I asked him why he remembered that and he said he does not know, he just remembered that; but other than that one incident, I think all of the MPs told me, that I talked to, they didn't change anything, they, themselves, didn't change anything, they didn't see anybody change anything other than of course the ultra-proper steps to protect the scene.
Q May I ask you why you questioned Captain MacDonald so specifically about the flower pot on April 6, if Tevere -- I believe you said -- indicated it was not as pictured in the photograph?
A I didn't.

Q Mr. Shaw, do you know whether any investigators interviewed the medics on the scene in regard to the clothing that they wore that evening when they came to the MacDonald house?
A I do not think that they asked that question specifically. I only have to go on what I read in their written statements, and that question didn't appear.
Q Do you know which of the MPs it was who thought he saw a medic with Levi's on?
A I do not remember specifically. I said this was secondhand; I was told that by somebody else.
Q You didn't ask that question of any of the MPs that you interviewed?
A If they saw someone in Levi's?
Q Right.
A I didn't -- wait a minute, let me retract that. I believe I did ask that of Morris, and Morris said he did not.
Q Morris said what?
A He did not.

Q I am going to show you a photograph, marked our Number 4, which has been supplied to us by Captain Somers; I ask you to identify that object, if you can?
A This is a photograph depicting a paring knife, with wooden handle stamped "Old Hickory," which I found under a bush at the northeast corner of the MacDonald quarters.
Q All right, where in relation to the bush was this? Was it towards the house or away?
A It would be almost directly away from the juncture of the north wall and east wall, in an imaginary line extending out beyond.
Q How far in front of the bush was it?
A Within, it was within twenty to twenty-four inches of the base of the bush.
Q Was it under the foliage?
A Yes.
Q Would it be possible or did you attempt to make any type of experiment to see whether or not somebody standing from the doorway could throw that object under the bush, or did you see visually whether --
A It is highly unlikely, I think, that one could; although it could be done because of the different circumstances of throwing something and it bouncing away and what have you; it could have happened.
Q Was this found under the foliage of the bush?
A Yes.
Q Now, to your knowledge, or to the knowledge of the Criminal Investigation Division, filed in this case, has anybody identified that object as having come from the MacDonald household, that particular paring knife?
A To the best of my knowledge, they have not.
Q I want to show you photograph Number 5, which we have marked Number 5, and ask you to identify that object?
A Paring knife that I found and collected as evidence from the master bedroom, which appears in several photographs.
Q That was found somewhere in front of a dresser or underneath?
A Right.
Q To your knowledge, or to the knowledge you have obtained through your investigation of the other investigators, fellow officers of the Criminal Investigation Division, has anyone positively identified that object as having come from the MacDonald household?
A I believe one of the Kalin girls has. The circumstances are, as I recall, that she was frequenter [sic], babysitter, in the house and she recognized this particular knife because it has a bent blade and she identified it as coming from the MacDonald house.
Q Was that a positive identification or just something --
A This is secondhand knowledge to begin with. I think it was a positive identification but I am not sure.
Q I am going to show you another photograph, Number 2, and ask you if you can identify what that object is?
A Yes, sir, this is a photograph depicting an icepick, which I found on the ground underneath the bush at the northeast corner of the quarters, very close to the knife depicted in photograph Number 4.
Q Closer towards the entrance or further away from the entrance?
A (No answer.)
Q Which was closer to the door side of the bush rather than opposed, the opposite side of the house, or the end of the house, if you can recall?
A Without checking my sketches and photographs, I don't recall. They were lying very close together.
Q With reference to that particular icepick, has anybody positively said they had seen that object in the MacDonald household?
A I think a "like object" is what was stated.
Q Who said that?
A I do not remember. I do know from secondhand knowledge that Captain MacDonald is supposed to have said at one point that they had an icepick.
Q In the house on that night or that they had had an icepick sometime?
A They owned an icepick at that time.
Q To whom did he say that?
A It would have been to one of the Criminal Investigators or one of the FBI that interviewed. Of course, they did this in conjunction with each other; they did this together.
Q Who was that? You say "they"?
A He was interviewed at one time by -- well, varying times by Caverly and Hodges and Mr. Connolly.
Q Was Mr. Connolly there when the other two men interviewed him, or were they separate occasions?
A I think he may have been there, under separate occasions. I am not certain he is the man that elicited this information; I think it was Caverly and Hodges.
Q Now, when you were questioning Captain MacDonald back on April 6th, what did he tell you about the icepick at that time, or any icepick?
A He said that anybody who said he had an icepick was a liar, because he never said that.
Q Do you know what Captain MacDonald's condition was when he was interviewed in the hospital by the agents of the Criminal Investigations Division and FBI, regarding medication he was under?
A No, sir; I don't.

Q Did you find any other knife or kitchen utensils in the MacDonald household, which bore the brand name "Old Hickory"?
A I did not.

Q Did anyone else? According to your knowledge of the investigation?
A According to my firsthand knowledge, there was another paring knife in the house, with a brown handle.
Q What was the brand?
A I do not remember; I know it is still there; I don't think it was an "Old Hickory."
Q Was it marked "Geneva Forge"?
A I do not remember.
Q Do you think you would remember if it had been the same type of knife? You think it would refresh your recollection?
A I think so.

Q Has any attempt been made to, by the Criminal Investigation Division, to determine whether, for instance, the Old Hickory brand of knife is an item which is sold at the PX stores or at Fort Bragg or any other military establishment?
A I do not believe any specific attempt has been made, because I know from personal knowledge that they have been sold on post and off-post and overseas and a lot of places.
Q How about the other knife, Geneva Forge knife, has any investigation been made?
A Again, no specific investigation.
Q Do you know of anything of your personal knowledge, regarding the Geneva Forge knife?
A My personal knowledge, I do; the PX.
Q Just to finish the kitchen utensils, this icepick that you found, is there any identifying manufacturer name on the handle or any part of the icepick?
A I don't believe there was. That is why, of course, I marked it as evidence with my initials and date; I don't recall anything stamped on it.
Q Was there any investigation made or do you have any personal knowledge as to whether a similar icepick is sold at PX stores?
A I have no idea.
Q To your knowledge, are icepicks sold in the PX?
A I believe I have seen them in the PX; well, in various shopping facilities on the post, if not the PX.
Q In any shopping facilities on the post, have you ever observed whether the icepicks there resembled in size and shape and color of handle the one we have here?
A Sir, to my knowledge, all icepicks resemble in size and color. Not to be facetious, but that is just the case. An icepick is just an icepick.

Q Is it your common knowledge that in this area for an individual to carry an icepick as a weapon, have you seen that before?
A To my knowledge it is not common.
Q Have you ever seen anybody from the Fort Bragg area carrying an icepick as a weapon?
A No, sir; I have seen youngsters carrying icepicks. I am talking about high school or pre-high school, but not in this area.

Q You have had occasion, I assume, to review other reports of other witnesses who have been interviewed regarding this matter?
A That is correct.
Q Now, of those witnesses, has anybody said, to your knowledge, that Captain MacDonald ever struck his wife or children?
A Well, secondhand knowledge, again. That is what you have asked for. There was a bus driver, a school bus driver interviewed about this, and I think he came forth of his own volition and stated that very shortly before this incident, Kimberly MacDonald had approached him and said that she wished that he, the bus driver, were her daddy instead of Captain MacDonald. Apparently she indicated to him that he was very mean and that he struck her or spanked her or something, but there was not much weight given to that, because I am sure any of our children might say the same thing, given time.
Q Has anybody else -- I would assume that there have been several hundred people interviewed regarding the other evidence, you might say witnesses, people who supplied you with a substantial motive, or statement by Captain MacDonald that he was going to kill his family, or something along this line?
A No, sir.
Q So, when anyone goes into 554 [sic] Castle Drive, as you investigators went in there, you went in there with a completely open mind as to what occurred?
A (Affirmative nod.)
Q And as a result of what you saw at 554 [sic] Castle Drive, and as a result of what you discussed with Captain MacDonald and other witnesses, you came to the conclusion that he killed his wife and two children, is that correct?
A (Affirmative nod.)
Q Now, assuming that the incident did not occur as Captain MacDonald has described it to you -- and naturally since you have a belief that he did this, you did not accept his version of the facts -- according to your investigation, how did the killings take place?
A How did they take place?
Q Yes. Can you say who was killed first?
A No, that was all a sequence of events.
Q Where was everybody killed -- starting with Colette, where was she killed?
A We never could safely say.
Q Now, as far as Kristy MacDonald, where was she killed, according to your investigation?
A She was killed, I would say, in her bed.
Q Now, as far as Kimberly, the older child -- is that correct -- where was she killed?
A I would say she was killed in her bed.
Q Is there any conflict, as far as the places where these people were killed, with Captain MacDonald's story?
A No, not where they were killed.
Q Is there any physical evidence in any of those three bedrooms, which connects Captain MacDonald with the killings?
A I would say yes.
Q What would that be?
A Well, we have got two bedrooms set up, two children's bedrooms that were staged; and then taking Captain MacDonald's story again, as to what he did and how he administered to his wife, just what he did all over in the house after he regained consciousness. You got a picture of Colette?
Q Yes.
A According to his --
Q I show you a picture marked C and a picture marked Number 1, which may help you. Let's start with this one. What does picture number one mean to you?
A Which is picture number one?

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save some money and get ahead, there was always something coming up precluding this, had to buy things or pay for things. In other words, they couldn't get ahead.
Q That was the only problem as such?
A Yes.
Q Was there any problem, any fears expressed by Colette for her safety, or communication by Colette that she was in fear of her life or fear of the life of the children?
A No.
Q Had Mrs. Kassab or Mr. Kassab ever heard Colette say that she feared her husband physically or he had ever abused her physically?
A No, according to her statement to me, no.

Q Did Mr. or Mrs. Kassab indicate that they had any personal knowledge of Captain MacDonald abusing his wife or children?
A No.

Q Did they have any secondhand knowledge of being, not directly told by their daughter or grandchildren, but anyone else, ever told them that Captain MacDonald had mistreated either their daughter or [the] children?
A No.
Q Actually, wouldn't it be fair to say that they felt that from knowing Captain MacDonald through the years and being very close with their daughter, they had absolutely no indication that Captain MacDonald could have or would have done something like this to his wife and children, isn't that their impression?
A Their collective impression?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Actually, even to today, if you know, that would still be their impression, wouldn't it? If you would know, if you wouldn't know --
A I have no opinion about that.
Q Was anyone close to Colette [other] than Mr. and Mrs. Kassab? Did they have any close, very close friends to whom she may have given intimate details regarding her marriage, that you interviewed?
A No.
Q Would you say your investigation revealed that she probably was as close with her mother and stepfather, if not close [sic] than anyone else?
A Yes, besides her children.
Q Besides her children?
A Yes, and I say that because Mr. Kassab and Mrs. Kassab indicated to me that with Colette, her children were paramount; everything else took second place.
Q Did Mr. and Mrs. Kassab related to you any problem that the MacDonalds were having regarding Colette MacDonald's pregnancy, any particular problem?
A Yes, they talked about her having had two Caesarean deliveries and that when she became pregnant this last time it was a mistake, but they were bound and determined to have it, and Colette was afraid, apprehensious of the Caesarean.
Q Why? Had she had any particular problem before with her prior Caesareans?
A Only that they were Caesarean deliveries; that is problem enough, isn't it?
Q Was Captain MacDonald upset or angry that he was having a third child, or was he happy, according to your investigation?
A I have no idea.
Q Did he express to the Kassabs or anyone else that you have interviewed, his unhappiness that he was having a third child?
A I don't know; I do not remember. This is sort of a gray area. I want to say something and I am not sure whether it is true or not and I am going to pass it, but I don't remember about that.
Q Did you have occasion to interview any of the girls or ladies that Mrs. MacDonald went to school with?
A No, I did not.
Q Did you have occasion to interview Ronny Harrison, a friend of the MacDonalds?
A No.
Q Is there any indication from your investigation that there were any differences between Captain MacDonald and his wife that might have come to a head on that night, over some type of simmering feud or something they had argued about before or something that had caused the problem in their marriage before, that might have led to this incident?
A Well, this is a very broad question. There were problems between them that any number of married couples might have. For example, Jeffrey MacDonald apparently was very gregarious and liked to have people over that the house and especially on Christmas Day, when his wife was trying to cook up a gourmet dinner and keep it warm for four hours while entertaining friends and against her wishes, according to the Kassabs. He was also unfaithful to his wife, apparently.
Q You say --
A I do not know whether she knew that or not.
Q When you say "unfaithful," you mean he was carrying on an affair with one particular woman or might have?
A I mean he was, on at least one occasion, was in a position where he might have had sexual intercourse with a woman.
Q Might have; you are not saying that he did have sexual intercourse?
A I do not know there was penetration. They had problems in this respect, that again, according to the Kassabs, Captain MacDonald was a very compulsive straightener or organizer of personal effects, whereas she was a very slovenly housekeeper.
Q You mean very slovenly and keep up with two kids?
A I mean that Alfred Kassab wouldn't dream of dropping in on his stepdaughter unannounced, even by so much as two hours, because he was afraid of embarrassing her, because he knew she was a slovenly housekeeper and was very embarrassed about it.
Q Did they ever have any violent arguments?
A I do not know.
Q There was no indication in your reading of the investigation that there was any particular problem which led to a violent argument or anything?
A Well, they supposedly had arguments, according to neighbors, and sometimes violent arguments, violent in raised voices.
Q Raised voices? When was the last raised-voice argument any neighbor might have heard the MacDonalds having before this night?
A Before that night? I can't give you a specific date.
Q Was it within a week or month or a few months?
A I don't know.
Q With regard to Captain MacDonald's love of his children, was there any indication that you have, other than the alleged statement by a bus driver, that he was anything but a good father and loved his children very deeply?
A On the contrary, everything that I have personally developed or have heard of says that he loved his children very much and was a good provider and was a good father.
Q In general?
A Yes.
Q What possible motive would he have for killing -- actually I think Mr. Ivory used Colonel Kriwanek's expression or description of "overkill" -- of his two children, brutally beating and stabbing of his two children, what possible motive would he have to do this?
A Of "overkilling," or just killing them?
Q Both; killing in that fashion?
A Well, to kill them in that fashion, I would say, and it is an opinion, that there was a deliberate attempt on the part of Captain MacDonald to put more than one killer in the house. In other words, we have four different weapons, which would indicate there were four persons there.
Q Do you know whether any fingerprints of any unidentifiable people were found in the house?
A Yes, I believe there were.
Q What attempts were made to locate or determine who these people might have been? Were they sent to Washington to the FBI or to the National Criminal Investigation Bureau, or anywhere else, to identify these people?
A The fingerprints which today have not been identified were matched with recorded fingerprints taken during this investigation.
Q You mean or suspects or people who were known --
A People who were known to have been in the house; suspects, investigators.
Q But they were never sent to the FBI to determine whether or not they matched fingerprints of people whose fingerprints were on record?
A To the best of my knowledge, the FBI doesn't perform that service. They might, but sending a fingerprint to the Federal Bureau involves work that I am not sure they are prepared to do.
Q They were involved in this investigation?
A Oh, yes.
Q And actually, they imported to this area many more agents than normally would be here, in order to conduct

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that is up in respect to the viewer.

Q You mean because her face was turned down, that is the reason that you concluded that the left side of her face was turned and that is the reason you concluded that that blow was not given in that room --
A To carry this a step further, her left cheek was down, lying on her left side, obviously there was a blow to the left cheek; the wounds she sustained on her right cheek and head area were in keeping with the fact that she was probably clubbed in that room on the right side and that there were wooden splinters on the bed, which goes along with this.
Q Are you saying Captain MacDonald first clubbed his daughter with this stick, is that what you are concluding, that he first clubbed her in the master bedroom and kept clubbing her and stabbing and continued to club and stab her in her bedroom, is that what your conclusions are?
A That she received a stab wound and the blows to the right side of her head in her own bedroom, yes, and received the blow to her left cheek in the master bedroom, yes.
Q What is the basis of your conclusion that she received the blow to the left cheek in the master bedroom?
A The blood on the floor of that room.
Q What other basis, other than the fact you found AB type blood in that room?
A Well, we have already discussed these things that led me to believe that. As I say, I don't believe at all that she received the injury to her left cheek in her own room or bed -- let me put it this way, yet we know she received injury to her left cheek; we know her blood appears in the master bedroom. We know that there are plenty of items there to be used to stop the flow of blood until she could be moved back to her own bedroom. There are certain things about her body position to tell us she received some injury prior to being placed in the position she was in. All these things totaled together leads me to believe what I stated.
Q What is there about her body position that indicated to you she received some blows in the bed where she was found?
A The angle of the wound to her right cheek, as I say, are in keeping with the position of the attacker; in other words, the position he would have to take to deliver these blows while lying in bed.

Q Which side of the bed would the attacker have to stand to deliver these blows?
A He would have to be in a position of the photographer in this particular picture, lying right in front.
Q You are referring to picture Number 14, is that correct?
A May I see the picture again? Yes, sir, he would have to be either her or a step to the right of the viewer.
Q Now, I show you your picture 16, in other words, where would he have to be standing?
A Between the bed and the north wall.
Q And how much room is there between the post of the bed and the record player?
A Less than a foot, seven inches.
Q Less than a foot?
A Uh-huh.
Q Were there any marks of him having moved or touched the record player, or anybody else?
A No.
Q Were there any fingerprints or footprints or anything on that side of the bed?
A Not footprints; I am not sure about fingerprints. I do not believe so.
Q Was there any evidence at all that anybody had been on that particular side of the bed?
A Well, yes, there was a rug there, a floor rug -- you are saying anybody at all?
Q Yes.
A There was a floor rug there and to the best of my knowledge, the floor rug was not exactly in line with the

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Investigation Division, which shows the floor plan; if I may, I would like to ask you to point out that section of the east bedroom -- I will give you a felt pen, in red, if you had rather have a red pen -- where the AB pools of blood or droplets of blood you described earlier in the interview, drawing any furniture or anything else you might need to set the stage.
A Those spots of blood I indicated on the floor?
Q Yes.
A All right, we will call this the edge of the shag rug that covered the entire floor area. There were spots of AB blood found in this area, as I said, half a dozen or some five or six in the area here, near the center of the doorway, just inside of the room. In addition, there were some AB blood found out here on the bare floor and I am not prepared to tell you, I think some over here -- and I am not prepared to tell you at this point which of these stains were, in fact, AB and which were indicated AB; but I know AB blood, to the best of my knowledge, [was] on the shag rug, which indicated it was. Now there was some AB blood, perhaps not large, on the doorjamb.
Q Approximately how high on the doorjamb, if you recall?
A Four to six inches.
Q Four to six inches?
A Yes.
Q Were there any other AB type bloodstains higher on the walls of the hall doorjamb or the east bedroom, in that general vicinity where it might be reasonable to think blood may have spattered from the blow being struck in that vicinity, if it was struck?
A There were either in fact or were indications of AB blood down in [the] hallway on this south wall of the hall, and some other scattered there, some spots of blood, Captain Douthat, without looking at the laboratory report and all of that.
Q Was there anything that you might be able to say resembled a trail of blood back to the south bedroom?
A Well, as I say, there were spots of blood down the south hall wall, some of which I believe were found to be, by the laboratory, AB blood. Now whether that indicates a trail or not --
Q Could you show where in the south bedroom there was AB blood or any blood?
Q Yes.
A On the bed.
Q Anywhere else? Other than the bed?
A If you will allow me to look at your copy of the laboratory report, I might be able to give you a better answer to that.
Q All right, sir.
A Delta 61, which is the north wall. Delta 123, which was under the bed. Delta 126, which is on the bed. And of course 128, which is on the bed. Red-brown stains on the north wall of the south bedroom, Delta 145.
Q Excuse me, Mr. Shaw, do you recall seeing a pair of shoes in the east bedroom that had bloodstains on them?
A In the closet of the east bedroom, a pair of white shoes that did have bloodstains on them, but they appeared to be a part of a corpsman's uniform or some kind of uniform, in that they were white shoes and they were in the closet as though they had been put away, and it just seemed to me there would be no way to connect that bloodstained pair of shoes with the crime scene, in that Captain MacDonald did wear them in some civilian hospitals.
Q Were you able to find any fingerprints that were unidentified in or around the south bedroom?
A I don't remember. I didn't develop or collect any latent fingerprints at all. We had a laboratory technician to do that.
Q Looking at photograph Number 3 again, on it the blanket appears to be tucked up under her. Does the blanket go all the way underneath her body or just tucked under? Is she laying on it?
A Yes, she was laying on it; the upper part of her body is laying on it, correct. I had to pull that out from underneath her before I could pull the blanket back.
Q I refer you to Number 3, and an unnumbered photograph which I will call "I," Number "I," or just a red "I" on the back of it, and ask you if the blanket in it and in the other photograph appear to be the same?
A Having been on the scene and examined it that morning, yes, it does. Now, I see, I think, what your question is. It would appear that they are not; in fact, they are. The angle of view on photograph Number 3 is somewhat deceptive in that it is taken very close to the bed and these are fluffed up in this area. It looks as though in your photograph, it looks as though the blanket or bedspread is laying on the bed; in fact, it is not; it is sticking up in the air. They are the same; they were taken by the same photographer at the same time.
Q Do you have an opinion as to how the child became wrapped in the blanket in that manner, the blanket going all the way under her body as you say?
A Opinion? Yes, sir, I do. I think that the child was sleeping and I think she heard something and got up to investigate and was later carried back to the bed and placed on the blanket, or a portion of the blanket, and the rest pulled up around her.
Q And she was apparently rendered unconscious at that time?
A Apparently.
Q Then the stab wounds were given her after the blanket was pulled up like that?
A Yes.

Q According to Captain MacDonald's story that the youngest child was in bed, the first thing was in bed was [sic] the wife and his testimony is that she had wet the bed, and "Therefore I took the younger child and put her back in bed," and that is why he was sleeping on the couch. Now the urine stain on the bed in the master bedroom, now is there any way of scientifically identifying that urine stain as Kristen's?
A It can't be done, to the best of my knowledge, from a stain of that nature.
Q Was there any other explanation that anybody else offered for that urine stain on the bed?
A No.
Q That would then corroborate the statement; at least that portion of the bed would have been uncomfortable to sleep on, would that be correct?
A I would say yes.
Q And, therefore, the fact that Captain MacDonald would have been sleeping, as his story was, on the couch, is not inconsistent with his version of the story, is that correct?
A (No answer).
Q Let me ask you, Mr. Shaw, was there any establishing of the age of that urine stain?
A Upon my arrival on the scene, it was wet.
Q It was wet?
A That is right.
Q The whole area that subsequently developed as [a] dried urine stain, was it [a] wet area when you were there?
A Yes. It had started to dry just a little around the extreme edges.
Q The east bedroom where you found the AB bloodstains on the floor, did you find any of the AB bloodstains on the wall in the east bedroom or on the ceiling of the east bedroom?
A I don't believe so; only what I read here and I don't think so. Now, I am going only on my memory of what I have read in the laboratory reports.
Q Was it your impression that the AB bloodstains on the floor in the east bedroom were from wound [sic] inflicted on the child as a result of or by the use of the wooden stick or the knife?
A It is my opinion that the child bled in the east bedroom as a result of being wounded with the stick or club.
Q And did you form the opinion that this was the wound on the left cheek that was delivered in the east bedroom?
A Yes, I do.
Q And was the child in the east bedroom at the time or in the hallway outside of the east bedroom or do you have any theory as to how she received that injury?
A Well, in my opinion she was standing in the doorway.
Q The fact that there was some bloodstain on the shag rug which does not go out into the hallway, does that lead you to the conclusion that she was standing on the rug at the time she received the injury?
A Well, my theory I arrived at or my opinion I arrived at, has to be colored with the knowledge that people fall and/or stagger and move around after being hit and this is a variable which to a certain degree can't be coupled with -- it is just there and we have to do the best we can with what physical evidence you have. I have told you that is my opinion she was standing in the doorway or very near the doorway when she was struck and she bled on the rug and she bled on the floor.
Q When you say standing in the doorway, you mean in [the] hallway in the doorway or inside on the rug but just at the door? You don't have any way of fixing the place?
A I have to say that she was at the doorway when she was struck, and whether just inside or just outside, I have no opinion about that fact.
Q Were you of the opinion that the blow to the left cheek, no matter where she was when administered, was a very severe blow?
A Severe in that it damaged her cosmetically and of course caused injury to her bone structure. I do not think it was a death-dealing blow, no.
Q Or even one that rendered her unconscious?
A Well, my opinion as to that is certainly worthless.
Q Let me ask you, are there blood spots on the upper wall and ceiling in the hallway just outside of the east bedroom, AB type?
A No, there isn't.
Q How about inside?
A The upper wall.
Q Yes, upper wall? I would say anything above eighteen inches above floor level?
A Oh, yes, I think there are, according to the report.
Q How high up on the wall were AB blood spots found?
A I can't tell you. I would be guessing if I told you without going back to the house and looking.
Q Doesn't the report indicate what portion of the wall?
A In some places it indicates upper hall wall or some many inches above the baseboard, but in other places it doesn't.
Q Were there many AB blood spots, say, higher than eighteen inches from the floor?
A I don't think so.
Q Were there any, say, as high as five feet or between five and six feet?
A I don't believe so.
Q Were there any above that height, six feet?
A No.
Q Were any AB blood spots on the ceiling?
A To the best of my recollection, no.
Q Were AB blood spots found on the wall, the south wall of the hallway?
A Yes, sir, there were.
Q Pardon?
A The south wall of the hallway?
Q Yes.
A Yes, there were.
Q Were there any found on the north wall of the hallway?
A Yes, I believe there were.
Q Where were the larger number of blood spots, on the south wall or north wall?
A To give you an actual answer, I would have to research the report, which I am perfectly willing to do if you want me to. Some of these spots, as you well know from having read the report, are indicated AB blood, which the laboratory people tell me is one step short of proof that is in fact AB blood; it could be something else. What is in fact AB blood and what is indicated could be confused in my rundown, in my mind, and I wouldn't like to answer without researching the report.
Q What was your impression as to where the larger number of AB spots were on the south wall or north wall?
A My impression was the south wall.
Q South wall?
A The larger number.
Q Is that the wall which you have reason to believe the child was nearer when she was allegedly injured?
A I think so.
Q And is that consistent with where the blood spots were found on the red shag rug, identified as AB?
A There is no red shag rug. The shag rug covers the east bedroom, not to the east entrance, and this is all consistent; I think so.
Q What I am asking, is that area of five and a half

Note from Christina Masewicz: The last line above is the last line appearing on page 65 of the original transcript. Page 66 is missing. Page 67 continues below.

A Well, again in my opinion, a backhanded, left-handed blow.
Q You say a backhanded blow. I don't follow you?
A As opposed to --
Q Are you indicating that as a person swinging lefthanded backward or as a person delivering the blow without turning around, but intentionally inflicting a left-handed blow, facing or backwards?
A I think it was probably administered in a state of unreasoning passion or panic. I do not think that the person deliberately decided to use a lefthand backward swing.
Q Now, how far is Colette MacDonald's nearest foot, that looks to be her left foot, from the entry to, into the east bedroom?
A May I see the photograph?
Q Yes. Photograph Number 9.
A I am not sure, about four and a half or five feet. I never had cause to make that particular measurement. I don't know.
Q Do I understand that it is your opinion that the blow to Kimberly MacDonald was delivered while she was standing in the door of the east bedroom by a person who was, as you described, straddling Colette?
A Or kneeling at her side.
Q Or kneeling at her side; and did you ever reenact or have cause to reenact and [sic] how that would have taken place?
A I did with the yardstick.
Q With a yardstick, using the yardstick as the swinging item?
A Just to check the distances to see if it could be done.
Q Now, what I am going to ask you to do is help us to reenact, and I am going to use this doorway and ask one of the other gentlemen to assume the position on the floor, to see if it could be done, to see how you think it was done.
A All right. (Lieutenant Malley taking position on floor to represent Colette MacDonald and Captain Douthat kneeling in the doorway to represent Kimberly MacDonald; the witness representing his version of the actions of Captain MacDonald; the witness directing the positions.) Your head this way, I would say a bit farther; your feet go maybe a little but further back. Lie so that you are about the center of the door.
Q May I ask whether the doorway we are using here is approximately the same width as the doorway in question?
A Yes.
Q And is this about thirty-six inches wide, this [unreadable] here?

CAPTAIN DOUTHAT: (Measuring doorway) Thirty inches.

Q All right, now would you indicate to us, using Captain Douthat, as to where the child might be?
A About this height.
Q You indicate about the height of Captain Douthat when kneeling?
A I don't know for sure.
Q Roughly his shoulder height would be the height of the child?
A About like that. (Captain Douthat sits back on his heels.)
Q Would you indicate how you think, Mr. Shaw, that the blow was delivered to the child?
A Well, because the child was struck on the left cheek and the injury to the bone indicates that the blow came from this direction, as I have indicated by the thirty-one-inch piece of wood, and I think Captain MacDonald must have been in this area someplace and I think he was kneeling because there is no apparent upward or downward wielding of the blow on her cheek. However, her head could have been in any position, could have been up or down, which would throw the whole thing off, but I think MacDonald was about where I am now, and was doing something, what, I do not know; he was doing something at this point and he was startled and he picked up his club, which had to be at one point on this rug because it had fibers from the rug on the club, and struck the child. She could have been running; she could have been in position, as far as bloodstains being on the floor, on the rug and further into the hallway. I assume a child of that size and weight, being struck a full blow with the club, that weight, even a glancing blow, she would have been bounced around to some extent, could have fallen, probably back towards this doorjamb.

ATTORNEY EISMAN: May I state so that the stenographic record will show, that you were demonstrating this position where you were on both of your knees about about the hip of Lieutenant Malley lying on the floor. Am I correct in that regard?

A Yes.

ATTORNEY EISMAN: And you are indicating that the blow would be a swinging blow with the left hand extending in an arc and eventually coming straight towards the door?

A That is correct.
Q Now, what was the length of the stick that was found, believed to have been the instrument?
A Approximately thirty-one inches.
Q Now, if you will assume that position, Mr. Shaw, we have marked a broom handle by using a ruler, to thirty-one inches, and Mr. Shaw, if you will, indicate to us with that broom handle.
A Again now, my theory has to allow for the fact that we have no way of knowing if Captain MacDonald was kneeling, sitting or standing. I say that he was in this position because of the angle of the blow to the child's left cheek, which could have been "canted" in any direction, particularly if she were running or what have you; but I am indicating that he was on his knees beside Colette MacDonald and either the club was in his hand, which it may well have been, or lying someplace on here, next to her over there. He was startled and he picked it up and swung this way, extending your arm to the fullest extent in the position I am now, just extending it straight out full.
Q Does it reach Captain Douthat in any way?
A No, it doesn't.
Q Now, Captain Douthat is actually six inches inside of the door frame into the room in which we are standing?
A All right, fine, because we must also take into consideration the fact that we have no idea what our measurements are here, how accurate they are.
Q Let's measure off this one last thing, where Captain Malley's heel is, pretty close to it.

CAPTAIN DOUTHAT: We don't know whether he is the same length. Measure from where you are.

A Four feet and nine inches from his foot, four feet and seven inches to the wall.
Q All right, now will you measure it from where Mr. Shaw was kneeling?
A Right here is about the center, thirty-one inches to here, sixty-two inches, seventy-four, seventy-nine inches to the door frame. (Measurements taken by Captain Douthat.)
Q Mr. Shaw, when you mentioned a moment ago that the club in question had fibers from the rug in the east bedroom on it --
A Yes, sir.
Q Did it have any other fibers or anything of that nature adhering to it, to show whether it had been laid on any object, not the rug in the east bedroom?
A I do not believe so. I think those are the only figures.
Q Did any of the other three weapons that we have in question, show by their physical characteristics that they had been placed on any object in the house?
A Well, we know that one knife was on the shag rug in the east bedroom.
Q Where you found it?
A Where found. As far as having fibers, I don't believe so.
Q The other knife and the icepick, did they show they had been laid down anywhere?
A I do not believe so.
Q Did you find any places in the house where the club had been laid down, for instance, a place that showed a pattern of blood with a straight edge as it may have dripped off the club?
A Not that I remember. I think I would have remembered if this came to my attention.
Q You do not; you found no place that the club may have been set down while Captain MacDonald was busy moving bodies?
A By bloodstains, no. As I say, fibers from the east bedroom green and yellow rug, which indicates it being laid down there.
Q The sheet that came off the bed in the east bedroom, speaking of the upper sheet with the blood on it --
A Yes.
Q How did this fit in your picture of the commission of the crime? How do you explain the bloodstain on that?
A I think that Kimberly was probably, this was used to prevent some contamination of stains and carried to her bedroom in that sheet.
Q And then the sheet was brought back after the body was deposited?
A I think so.
Q Did you see any place in the south bedroom where the sheet may have been set down or placed while the body was being arranged?
A Well, there were AB stains on the purple bedcover, whether that indicates anything or not, I do not know; this could be where the sheet was placed.
Q The sheet we have been discussing also had A bloodstains?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you hypothesize how it came to have A blood type on it?
A I think that probably that sheet was on the bed and was exposed at the time Colette was injured.
Q Did the stain on the upper sheet match any stains on the bottom sheet of the bed, or are there any stains on the bottom sheet of the bed?
A Yes, there are very small stains, which indicates to me that the upper sheet was on the bed.
Q Are the stains on the upper sheet --
A Also stains on the bedcover, all of which may have been lying on top of the bed at the time this stain and the blood was flying around.
Q I mean, what was the first position that you believe Colette was in when she was first injured?
A I believe Colette MacDonald was probably in a vertical position in reference to the direction of the blows.
Q Where, in reference to the bed, was she?
A Well, using the short axis of the bed as a guideline, I think probably either her back or her front was to that short axis, horizontal with it at the time she received the blows to her head.
Q Is there any indication that she received any blow while she was in bed?
A Only in that a great deal of her blood was on the upper sheet and on the bedspread.
Q Would that indicate to you from the position you finally found her in, that prior to that time she had been on the bed and been injured?
A I really don't know. I do not have an opinion as to whether she was on the bed or not.

Q The bedspread was found entwined with the upper sheet inside the entrance to the hallway?
A That is right.

Q About these threads we heard about, what color threads are they, to your knowledge?
A Well, a dark blue -- well, the threads as opposed to fibers, somewhat of a purple color and some blue fibers.
Q When you say purple threads, where did they come from, according to your information?
A The seam threads of the pajama pocket found on [sic] Colette MacDonald's body.
Q How long are these threads or these pieces of threads, varying lengths?
A Oh, yes.
Q What is the longest one?
A I don't know.

ATTORNEY SEGAL: Approximately how long?

A The longest thread?

ATTORNEY SEGAL: The longest thread from your visual observation?

A Well, the longest thread that I saw, probably five or six inches. I don't want to say that; several inches in length, more than three.

Q Where, in general, were the threads as opposed to fibers; where were they found?
A The threads and fibers were found pretty much in the same area.
Q Where was that, if you will describe?
A Well, the great majority were found in the east bedroom, on the floor of the east bedroom.
Q Where on the floor?
A Well, let me see one of these pictures. [The] picture number is "C."
Q Yes.
A Well, several threads and fibers were found within the body outline as depicted here in this photograph. Some were found around the area of the large bloodstain towards the top of the picture, both under the area of the head of the cadaver and by the side, and there were fibers found and hairs -- not hairs, fibers and threads found just about in all of the exposed areas of the rug, as opposed to being under a chair or under the bed.
Q How about underneath the body outline, were they uniformly distributed under the body outline or on the body outline or concentrated in certain places?
A The largest amount that I personally saw were in the area of her juncture of her two legs, in the crotch area that I personally saw. I saw them throughout the outline of the other places, but I had occasion to be specific about this area because I was helping Criminal Investigator Ivory at that time.

Q Would that area, would you describe as where her femoral pulse would be?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that is where the largest profusion you say you remember seeing?
A The largest profusion that I saw was at that area.
Q Was that the largest profusion found or was there some area where you found more profusion?
A Further up underneath her body, under the trunk of her body and abdomen, were many of these fibers and threads.
Q In your opinion, how did these fibers get in that area you are describing now, between the crotch area and further up?
A I think they fell there from the torn pajama jacket.
Q And how was that torn?
A How was that torn?
Q The torn pajama top or torn pajama jacket; how was that torn?
A How was it torn?
Q Yes, in your opinion?
A During the struggle.
Q Struggle between whom?
A Colette MacDonald and Jeffrey MacDonald.
Q You are saying a struggle; that is your opinion that this struggle was with Jeffrey MacDonald, wielding a club, and Colette MacDonald fending him off with her hands, is that the nature of the struggle you are describing or that you think happened?
A Well, I am not sure that when this altercation began that Captain MacDonald had the club in his hands. I am not certain about that at all. I think that at some point, occurring while she was conscious, and probably he was striking her, yes, I know that. Now, whether the pajama jacket was torn before or after that particular point -- I say probably before and now whether it was torn before he had the club in his hand or not, I really don't know.
Q Let me ask you this: from your investigation, was Colette MacDonald stabbed first or beaten first?
A Beaten first.
Q With what?
A The club.
Q Is there any evidence on her body that she was beaten with anything except the club, such as [a] fist?
A Well, there is no way to really tell that. She was injured, she sustained injuries due to blunt trauma; now, a fist is blunt.
Q How were her injuries, generally? I think both of her arms were broken?
A Yes, they were.
Q And how would you feel that they were broken?
A Well, they appeared to be classic defensive wounds, from a club.
Q And she was defending herself, probably, when that occurred, or holding her arms up to defend herself?
A Yes, sir.
Q But according to your knowledge of the case, there was no physical contact between her and Captain MacDonald before that happened?
A Well, I wouldn't say that, exactly.
Q What, then, was there?
A Of course, this is opinion, if you are interested.
Q Yes, sure.
A Do you have autopsy photographs?
Q No, we don't.
A All right. On the right bicep of Colette MacDonald, there is a lineal bruise, which was, while standing, would be horizontal to the plane of the floor, very narrow, very long, and although I have never, myself, specifically run into this kind of bruised person, but [the] pathologist and other investigators tell me very often bruises like this are inflicted by one grasping clothing of the victim and pulling it or twisting it and the clothing, the binding of the clothing, will cause a bruise of this type.
Q Is this the same bicep or arm broken in the struggle?
A Both arms were broken.
Q Is there any indication to say that the bruise occurred at the approximate spot of fracture?
A Oh, no; as I say, the bruise is on the upper arm area of the bicep, inside of the arm, on the inside surface of the arm and I think on her right arm. I am not sure; I think there were two fractures to the right arm. And one of them is probably, well, I don't know -- I just know two fractures, both of them on the forearms.
Q Is there any reason why Captain MacDonald would have waited two minutes after he made his first telephone call before he made his second call?
A Well, when he eventually brought aid, I think the first telephone call, the operator, I think, told him that he had to call the military authorities since he was on post, or something.
Q That is according to his statement?
A Yes.
Q What is the statement of the operator, the first operator? Did she summon help after the first call?
A To the best of my knowledge, they had called the MPs and tried to dispatch them together.
Q At that time, according to your investigation, Captain MacDonald had received the wounds that you believe were self-inflicted?
A He would have already sustained those wounds.

Q On what basis do you say that? Why do you say that he would have already received the wounds when he called?
A Well, I could only try to put myself in his place at this point. I would think that after he called, or prior to having called the military police, he would have arranged the crime scene the way he wanted, to include his own injuries as his last act.
Q Is there any reason why he would have waited two minutes and made a second call and not hung up the telephone?
A Well, of course, a telephone not being hung up is very dramatic -- everyone hangs up a telephone, and when I find a phone off the hook it is indicative of unusual circumstances, and why he waited two minutes and not ten minutes or one minute, I wouldn't know.
Q Now, according to your investigation, it was approximately fifteen minutes from the time the phone call was made until the time the MPs first arrived? Does that [unreadable] with your information?
A No.
Q What is your information?
A As far as I know, it was within five minutes.
Q Five minutes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where does your information come from?
A Well, my information along that line is -- it would be secondhand, but from the investigation, I think from the statement of military policemen and from, of course, the time as recorded by the desk sergeant, etc.
Q Who did the desk sergeant receive the call from?
A He was notified by the operator.
Q So the operator, if the telephone was off the hook from the time the call was made until the time the MPs arrived, as she heard MPs on the phone, she would know the exact time?
A She should, if she heard the entry of the military police and could distinguish it from the entry -- or as opposed to just normal noise that was going on, yes, she would know.
Q She said a minimum of ten minutes, possibly longer to fifteen, would that be correct, or would you say that was incorrect?
A As I just said, if she could distinguish the arrival of the military police as opposed to the first time she heard the military police, then that would be correct. However, as you probably know, when the military police went in the house and tried to contact the operator and got nothing, which would indicate that the operator was not listening at that point.
Q If Captain MacDonald were injured -- there was some question as far as the message he gave the operator, which I think even the operator describes as somewhat garbled, if he were injured and suffering from a punctured lung, and really just trying to save his own skin at this point, wouldn't he have made more effort to telephone the MPs, to make sure they got there faster?
A He made two.
Q He made one telephone call and waited, and the telephone was left off the hook so nobody could call back, isn't that correct?
A Right.
Q Do you feel that is consistent with the fact that he had punctured his own lung and was trying to cover up for something he had already done? Is that consistent?
A Yes; I see no conflict there.

Q Mr. Shaw, where else in that house did you find these fibers, threads, besides in the east bedroom?
A I found them in the south bedroom on the bed.
Q Where were they in the south bedroom?
A Under the covers of [sic] the south bedroom.
Q Were they both threads and fibers or just fibers?
A I just don't recall, Lieutenant; I tell you why, because at that point I wasn't distinguishing between fibers and threads.
Q By fibers, by that you mean fuzz and stuff?
A By fibers, I mean material that makes up the jacket, itself, manufactured by the person who weaves the cloth; by threads, I mean the thread that sews the pieces of cloth together; that comes from the seams. I don't know which was which. Now, I will go ahead and answer your question. I personally found fibers and/or threads in the west entrance to the hallway on the floor, near the south wall, just a pile laying there.
Q Anywhere else in the house?
A I did not find them anywhere else in the house.
Q Do you know whether there were any fibers and threads found elsewhere in the house?
A I think there were some found in the north bedroom.

Q Getting back to where you found them in the hall, where in relation to the master bedroom would that have been?
A Well, the master bedroom opens off the east end of the hall. This would have been at the entrance to the living room.
Q According to your information or opinion in this case, nothing occurred in the living room. How would you explain the fact that there was a profusion of fibers at that end?
A That was the hall where there was a profusion of fibers.
Q I thought you said that there were fibers --
A There were fibers, not a profusion. As I understand, a profusion means spread out over a large area.
Q If nothing occurred there, how did it happen there were fibers at the end of the hallway? What possible reason would they be there?
A Well, they could very well have been carried there by Captain MacDonald when he went to the telephone in the kitchen, which he states he did; they could have been on his body.
Q At that time his pajama top was off, wasn't it?
A Well, we only have his story to go by; we don't know. He says it was, yes.
Q You have said that the pajama top probably ripped off in the struggle, and therefore probably wasn't.
Q I think it was ripped during the struggle; whether ripped off during the struggle, I have no way of knowing.
Q Would it also be possible that it was ripped in the living room, as Captain MacDonald said? Eventually, I think his story was that it was ripped and he got his hand tangled up in it struggling and finally ripped it off his hand when he got in the bedroom in an attempt to tend to his wife, isn't that his story?
A More or less.
Q If it were just wrapped around his arm in the living room, there would be, possibly, a small amount of fibers there, and when he ripped it off completely, breaking the seams, that the profusion of fibers would be found in the bedroom and that would be consistent with his story, would it not?
A No.
Q It wouldn't?
A No, because he states it was ripped in the living room. He started down the hallway and he wound up unconscious on the hall floor. There are no fibers in the living room -- we found none -- let's put it that way, and we searched very diligently for fibers in the living room or the couch and in the kitchen and dining room we found none. We did find one group of fibers, or threads, I am not sure which, at the entrance to the hallway, floor to the living room. We found a great many fibers all over the bedroom floor. I was asked before where most of them were found, but in fact they were found through the traveled area of this bedroom floor.
Q Captain MacDonald never said it got ripped; he said it somehow got entangled over his arm in the living room in the struggle and he staggered into the hallway and became unconscious, is that your recollection also of his story?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then he regained consciousness and went into the bedroom and then took off the top or freed his hands?
A He said to me in the only personal statement I heard him make, that he has no recollection of it going over his head because he has no recollection of the top being pulled over the head, but he did say at one point that the pajama jacket was wrapped somehow around his wrist and that someone was punching him and he was trying to fend off the punches with the top in his hands and when he regained consciousness, he went through these four people and wound up on the floor of the hallway and regained consciousness, he stood up and walked to his wife's body, pulled the pajama jacket off his hand and placed it on her body in an attempt to keep her warm and treat her for shock. So that is what I heard him say.
Q But he never said the jacket was ripped?
A I don't believe he used that term. I would have to read the transcript of his statement again.
Q If fibers were found in the hallway near the living room, isn't it possible this got there from his falling down there and lying there with his hands entwined in the jacket for a period of time -- we don't know how long -- before he got up to go in the bedroom? Couldn't they have gotten there that way?
A If that happened, yes, they could have.

Q I would like to direct your attention to the north bedroom. I believe that is the only bedroom we haven't covered with any thoroughness. Do you include the north bedroom in your list of those "staged" areas or scenes?
A My list of staged scenes?
Q Anyone's list of staged scenes?
A Well, there is a great deal of conjecture about the baby bottle, and I am of the same opinion with reference to the baby bottle as I am about the styrofoam pot in the living room. I have an opinion as to something lightweight like that, my experience is that anything can happen to it. I don't know; it means nothing to me. It could have been placed by the murderer or could have been placed there by almost any sort of action taking place in that bedroom; I don't know.

Q There is no question in your opinion that child was killed in that bedroom? There is no other evidence that you know of or you have seen to indicate otherwise, is that correct?
A That is correct.

Q Do you have a theory as to how that particular murder took place, possible actions of the murderer or murderers?
A Well, to a certain extent, I do.
Q Could I have your theory on that, please?
A I think that she was stabbed in the chest, and at some point during the stabbing, she awoke and she put her hand to her chest because it hurt and she was stabbed again through the right ring finger and chest, and stabbed several times, and then she was turned over and moved towards the side of the bed and stabbed in the back, and then probably pushed back again. I think the blows were delivered with great strength, in that she was moved around in the bed to some extent.
Q By turned over, you mean, as you see her pictured in the photograph?
A I think she was turned, I think she was lying on her back and she was turned over, after the stabbing in the chest took place she was turned on her left side, and pulled towards the edge of the bed.

Q Would it appear that she was awake or asleep?
A I think she was awake.
Q What would be the motive for her death, if she was not in the master bedroom or hall and saw what happened, what you think occurred between Captain MacDonald and his wife, as you think the other child might --
A Sir, I do not really understand what you are getting at.
Q What possible motive could there be for her death if she was not a witness to the other killing or killings, as far as Captain MacDonald is concerned, for the murder of that child?
A Well, you are asking me for my opinion?
Q Yes.
A I am not absolutely certain Captain MacDonald murdered that child.
Q What is your opinion as to who might have murdered that child?
A Well, I think that Captain MacDonald murdered his wife and murdered his oldest daughter. Something had to start it off; and we are all married men, but I do know that the stresses of daily married life can sometimes become almost unbearable, as we all know from our experience; in many cases it does become unbearable for persons and they go under the strain and some of them pack up and leave home and some cause violence in the home, both men and women. And it has been my opinion and I have nothing to back it up, that perhaps Colette MacDonald did something to this child that caused Captain MacDonald to become enraged, and it is only my personal opinion; I think that perhaps after he lost, when he came out of this fit of passion, he began to think rationally again, he may well have come back to this child and may have reinjured her and he might not.

Q Mr. Shaw, you had occasion to refer to how some people respond to marital problems of the pressure of marital life, as a motive or the possible motive for the killing as you have theorized it; but is it fair to say you don't start off with the assumption that all persons are capable of acting in the way this murder was carried out, as a way of responding to marital problems?
A Well, I want you to know and I want your record to show that I do not consider myself any kind of marriage counselor or psychiatrist or psychologist or student of abnormal behavior. I am just drawing from life experiences and what I have seen as a policeman and as a private citizen and I think that the big question in my mind about this case has been motive; in fact, it began the day that I walked into that house and began to assist in the investigation; it was the uppermost question in my mind, was the motive.

Q Just drawing from your life experience, would it be fair to say that you would not expect the ordinary person to respond in some kind of marital discord in the fashion that took place in the MacDonald household?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q From that, would I be correct in concluding that you would place some weight on whether or not Captain MacDonald has some emotional instability or not, in determining whether this crime took place under the theory of marital discord, as you expressed?
A I would place some weight towards that.

Q Have you any evidence or information from your investigation of this case, that Captain MacDonald was not emotionally stable?
A Emotionally stable? Again, you are asking me for an opinion far outside of my field.
Q What I am saying, you have interviewed several people, including the Kassabs?
A I think I understand you.
Q Other investigators have also, and the question is, from your knowledge of this case, discussing the matter with other fellow investigators and from interviewing the Kassabs, has anybody indicated that Captain MacDonald, from their knowledge of Captain MacDonald and knowing him through the years, had any indication that he has emotional disturbance in his personality? If so, who?
A It is a matter of degree; to what you are referring to, no. No one has. In fact, everyone I personally talked to, and those I know have been talked to, just about everyone had the highest opinion of Captain MacDonald, yes.
Q Actually, in his chosen occupation, according to the investigators, both you and your other investigators, have concluded, what was his reputation for being a dedicated doctor, as far as you know, as far as you and other people know and people you have discussed the matter with, fellow investigators and anybody else who has interviewed people in this case, what was his reputation as a doctor?
A His reputation as a doctor?
Q Yes. Was it that he cared for people or he was just doing a job?
A Well, what I have heard, all right. I have heard, for example, he was very concerned about people and in their illnesses and anti-social behavior aspect. He supposedly has treated drug users very sympathetically, very sympathetic as longas they were using synthetic, but if they were using hard narcotics, such as codeine, he had no sympathy, he would turn them over in a minute to the police.
Q Has he ever turned over anybody to the police?
A Not to me, he hasn't.
Q But where did you get this report that he had?
A You asked for second and thirdhand information. Let's see where I can get that. I got that, I believe this supposedly came from persons he worked with at Cape Fear Valley Hospital.
Q Let me ask you this. I don't want to trap you as to your knowledge of civil law, but if a doctor treats a person who is using something like heroin or cocaine-based narcotics, isn't there an obligation imposed upon him by law to inform the civil authorities? If a person is using heroin, for instance, wouldn't it be a doctor's obligation to inform the authorities, according to your information?
A Well, you specifically mentioned civil law. I don't know; I actually don't. If you are talking about military, I know something about that.
Q Getting away from the narcotics aspects of the case, wasn't it everybody's impression or wasn't it a fact that there was no contrary impression that Doctor MacDonald was a very dedicated physician in his contact towards his patients? Is there any [sic] contrary to that?
A Not to my knowledge, no.
Q Now, is there any indication from your knowledge of Doctor MacDonald's medical record at the hospital -- when I say medical record, I mean blood tests and urinalysis or any pre-history that Doctor MacDonald was a known user or abused narcotics or dangerous drugs, such as LSD, any information that you have or any other investigators have that he did do this?
A To be specific, with reference to hard narcotics, there is no record of this to my knowledge.
Q How about LSD, any record of that?
A No, to my knowledge, there is no specific test for LSD.
Q To your knowledge, did Doctor MacDonald ever use LSD?
A No, again, there is no test for that.
Q If I told you that the only test which has been found to detect LSD, [that] has been effective, is a sectioning of the liver, and this was done on Colette to look for LSD and none was found, would that be in accordance with your knowledge of this case?
A No, because I am of the opinion and I am told by authorities that there is no test for this and everyone that sees that specific reference has said, "I wonder what kind of test it is, because we don't know of any." Supposedly it just disperses into the body system.
Q Anything in your knowledge or in your report that indicates Captain MacDonald or Colette were under the influence of drugs on that night? I say under the influence, I don't mean taking a sleeping pill or a pill for her pregnancy.
A No, there is nothing to indicate that they were under the influence that night at all.

Q Can I ask what concrete or what physical fact that you found, yourself, that causes you to hypothesize your theory of the events that took place in the MacDonald's north bedroom? What facts that you have seen or what evidence have you seen that causes you to interpret it in this fashion?
A In the north bedroom?
Q What would cause you to have the theory of the events in the north bedroom?
A I know that a significant amount of blood was found in the north bedroom, Colette MacDonald's blood.
Q Do you know where the blood was found?
A I have been told that, in your picture Number 12, depicts it as being on the upper sheet at the hip area of the body. I have been told that is type A blood, this being Colette's type, would indicate that Colette did some bleeding in that bedroom. In addition, there is another footprint that leads out of that bedroom on the floor, comprised of type A, which further indicates that she did some kind of bleeding. Now --
Q Go on, please.
A Well, to go on, the lack of disturbance in that room, as far as knocking furniture over or rugs askew or anything of that nature, indicates to me that -- well, there weren't, certainly weren't a group of people in that room physically restraining a mother trying to get at her injured child.

Q If I follow what you have said, your theory as to how this occurred would indicate that Kristen was killed first and then Colette and Kim, is that correct? Assuming that Colette killed Kristen, is that correct?
A I think that is probable.
Q Do you feel that all three, Kris, Kim and Colette, were awake at the same time; or do you think, for example, this child was killed, never waking up or that she did wake up or didn't wake up very much? This is Kris I am talking about?
A I think that she was not moved out of her bed, if that is what you mean.
Q Was not moved out of her bed?
A I am talking about Kris MacDonald; I don't think she ever left her bed, as such, unless perhaps she fell on the floor right at the edge of the bed and was placed back. That is only conjecture.

Q Is it your opinion when Colette MacDonald went in the north bedroom, she was injured so as to be bleeding rather profusely?
A You are certainly placing a lot of weight on my opinion. I do not know, Captain Douthat. I don't know that Colette was ever in that room. I don't know that somebody didn't take a sheet, soak it in her blood and squeeze it out over the bed. From what I see, I have no way of really forming an opinion as to whether she was injured in that room or she entered the room in an injured state. I think that if she was injured and if she was in the room, it was done in that room, and the reason I say that is because she was obviously clubbed. She was brutally clubbed, in fact, and she has defensive wounds. I am sure after she was injured with the club or her first injuries with the club were probably on the arms and after her arms broke, there wasn't anything she was going to do. This could take any form. And again, my theory of the death of this child, is just that: it is a theory; I would not want to have to testify about it.
Q The type A blood beside the bed, north bedroom, do you have a theory as to how this blood got there? You mentioned a moment ago you think the child may have fallen out of bed?
A Either fallen out of bed -- you can see the bloodstain down the side of the bed. This is why I said to you I think she was stabbed in the chest first. Well, of course because of the finger now, she either put her hand there or it was there and she was stabbed in the chest. Now if this is the case, then she was stabbed and moved so that she bled down the side of the bed and onto the floor. Again, she could have fallen out.
Q Or could have hung over the side of the bed?
A Yes.
Q It would appear, at least to my untrained eye, that someone bled rather extensively on the floor there, because a pool of blood, very large drops of blood having fallen, it would appear to me logically that this blood would have spattered on whoever was holding the child in this position. Is this consistent with the examination of Captain MacDonald, if he were the person that killed the child there?
A No, for his pajamas were taken off of him by hospital personnel and destroyed, or washed prior to blood samples or any evidence being taken from his body or clothing. I think what you say is right, yes; that if in fact it fell from her to the floor, that some, that there should have been some sort of stains, spatter stains on the perpetrator.
Q Were there any other things in the north bedroom that bothered you, as to the crime scene, investigation of the crime scene?
A No. Of course, I am not as familiar with that room as I am with the south bedroom. But that, generally, is what we discussed, what I told.
Q Did you see any rubber gloves in the MacDonald household?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you notice the pieces of rubber gloves in the east bedroom?
A Yes, I did.
Q Was anyone able to find the remainder of that rubber glove or gloves?
A No.
Q Have you any idea what may have happened to these gloves?
A Yes, I have an idea. I do know that surgical gloves, once they are punctured, once they are torn, they disintegrate very easily. Well, if we can say that the person who left that piece of glove there was the murderer, and the murderer was wearing the glove and the person wielding the club, I would say it would be very easy to go to the next step and say while wielding the club, the club splinters tore the glove and when he tried to take it off the hand, it disintegrated or there was very little left.
Q There were no fragments of glove found on the club itself; isn't that unusual?
A That isn't unusual, either.

Q Mr. Shaw, were you present when the various colored photographs were taken by the photographer?
A Yes, I was.
Q Now, prior to the taking of any photographs, were any adjustments made in your presence in any of the rooms that were photographed?
A This set of photographs?
Q Any of the photographs we have available or you have seen in connection with this case, were you present when any adjustments were made in any room as to placement of any matter or any room or any matter contained therein?
A (Long pause.) No.
Q I gather from your answer you are saying anytime that you were present in the room and photographers were taking these photographs, all you saw them do was to photograph the scene as it was at the time?
A I take that back. There are a couple of instances, to answer your question now, to my knowledge the door, the utility room door, was open when the military police arrived and I believe that door was shut as these photographs were taken, to keep out the weather.

Q Is that the only reason the door in the photograph was closed?
A Well, it was shut when we arrived; so we didn't close it. I do not know whether I did or not -- it might have been closed when we got there. Now, let me go a little further and say that while the Post photographer was taking these pictures, I think he started in the living room and in the kitchen and dining room and hallway and moved into the south bedroom and took a shot through the door of each one, south and north bedrooms; but somewhere during this time, the doctor arrived to pronounce, to exanine these bodies and pronounce them dead and these two photographs right here reminded me of it. The photographer came back, after he had been to the bedrooms and took some more pictures, and this scene differs. This is not a valid photograph in that her body had been moved, the position had been moved.
Q I would like, if you would, to have you initial the back of that photograph which you say is not correct.
A (Witness complies.)
Q I would like for you to look at these other photographs that have been given the defense. Look at this of the north bedroom and see if, is this photograph correct as originally viewed?
A It appears to be, yes.
Q What differences do you note in the two photographs?
A The position of the cadaver's right arm, and that is the only difference I see.
Q This one here is correct, is that right?
A Yes.
Q The only difference you notice is the position of the right arm? Those pictures which show the right arm extended out with the hand in a pool of blood, you say are in correct position?
A Yes.
Q And those which do not show the right arm, are not correct, the one you have?
A They are not correct in that aspect, as to the position of the cadaver.
Q Did you see any other photographs that were incorrect, any two photographs that were inconsistent with other photographs of the north bedroom?
A I haven't noted any.
Q Do you recall in the interrogation of Captain MacDonald on the 6th of April, he noted inconsistencies of photographs of the living room? Did you see the photographs then?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall any inconsistencies?
A Yes, sir.
Q The photographs in the living room, that pile of blankets or whatever it was in the hall --
A Some sort of children's clothing.
Q That differs in the photographs also?
A The photograph that you have, having been provided, depicts the scene, Number 11, depicts the scene as it was discovered by the Criminal Investigators and before it was moved in any respect. Now, this photograph which was taken by a laboratory photographer from the Criminal Investigation Division, shows the clothing in question on the end of the couch. And of course it also shows that it is daylight outside and a lot of other things; but this is inconsistent, you see. That is why, in fact, I thought the photographs weren't provided for you because they are for administrative use more than anything else.

Q Your theory that Colette Macdonald had this violent argument or fight with Jeffrey MacDonald and he subsequently beat her with a club, violently, and afterwards stabbed her, is that borne out by the evidence in the room itself, as far as [a] violent struggle took place?
A Which room?
Q The master bedroom, where Colette MacDonald was murdered?
A I think it is, yes.
Q Would that also be consistent with the fact that this killing was done by one or more persons of the group which Jeffrey MacDonald described that he saw in the house at the time?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Why not?
A Well, based solely on his story, you have a photograph which depicts the pocket, for example, from his pajama pocket, really free from blood, torn completely off the jacket. You have photographs which show the pajama jacket, that area covered by the pocket, is soaked in blood, which would indicate that it was soaked after the pocket was torn off the jacket, plus a profusion of threads and fibers in that room, indicating that the pajama jacket was torn in that room and not in the living room, as stated by Captain MacDonald.
Q I think it has already been determined that Captain MacDonald never said it was torn in the living room or pulled over his head, but he said it was ripped off or taken off --
A Taken off the wrist in the bedroom.
Q It was never torn in the living room, according to his story; it would have been torn or taken off by him in the bedroom, wouldn't that be correct?
A Well, no. What you say in one respect is also true in others. He said it was moved from the body and moved to the area of his wrist in the living room; he said he took it off the wrist and put it on the wife's body in the bedroom, which does not explain how the threads and fibers came to be under her body, nor does it explain how they came to be between the chair, nor does it explain how they came to be all over that room, nor does it explain how they came to be in the north bedroom. If what he says is true, he got off the floor of the hallway and moved directly to the wife's body and put that pajama jacket on her.
Q Wouldn't it have been indicated, if this thing were wrapped some way around his wrist and he saw his wife lying there and wanted to administer first aid, he probably would have taken it off in a manner other than being particular whether it got ripped or something?
A I don't think he would have paid much attention to how it got off, except he probably would not have used the pajama jacket for this particular purpose if it were wrapped around his wrist and hand. There are other items easily accessible to Captain MacDonald which would have been much better suited to the type of treatment he was attempting; in other words, to keep her warm and a standard treatment for shock.
Q What were these items, if I may ask?
A If you will look at the photograph, specifically Number 98, if you will look in the chair, you will see clothing which belongs to Colette, but in addition there is fresh laundry on the green chair, which is depicted in the photograph, and you have a couple of different tablecloths and some other heavy linen-type objects, and I am not sure what they are, some sort of clothing objects in that chair. Now, in my opinion, this white bathmat also came from the chair. It appeared to me on examination it wasn't soiled at all, with the exception of bloodstains that were on it, indicating to me that it was probably clean and it was probably in the chair with the rest of the laundry.
Q Did Captain MacDonald put that on his wife?
A He told me that he did not. He says he doesn't remember it at all; that he recognizes the fact this is his property but he doesn't remember putting it on her.
Q Do you recall anybody else having seen her or not seen her, or anybody to verify the fact who put it or where it came from?
A According to military police I talked to, one specifically remembers that when he walked in the door, it was on her, much in the position as now.

Q Anything else in your knowledge of this matter of importance which causes you to believe that Captain MacDonald killed his wife and two children, that we haven't discussed yet?
A Well, we have been going at this in a somewhat erratic manner and I am not sure what we have discussed and what we haven't, but anything else I could venture would be opinion.

Q Looking at the photograph which we have marked "B," and showing a section of the living room and television set, and I ask you exactly what evidentiary value this has, as a scene? What particular evidentiary value has this photograph?
A None in particular, just a photograph of a part of the scene.
Q The object on top of the speaker, beside the plant, do you know what that object is?
A It looks to be a feather.
Q Do you know where the feather came from?
A No, I don't.
Q Has anybody ever questioned you before as to where the feather came from?
A No, they haven't.
Q I show you a photograph marked "A," which is another scene of the living room. Of what evidentiary value is this?
A Well, with this photograph, we begin to get into the area where Captain MacDonald maintained he had a struggle with at least four intruders into his household, at the same time he was hearing screams of his wife and children, and to me it indicates a lack of struggle.

Q Did you, in searching the crime scene, explore the plumbing of the MacDonald house?
A At length.
Q What did you find in the plumbing of the house?
A Well, the residue in the sink trap, main bathroom, contained human blood. Other than that, I know of no evidence of evidentiary value.
Q Did you explore the sink in the kitchen? Or other bathroom?
A Yes.
Q Did you find anything?
A Nothing of any value.
Q Did you explore the commodes?
A Yes.
Q What did you find in the commodes?
A Again, nothing of evidentiary value.

Q The fact you found human blood in the sink trap, is that consistent with Captain MacDonald's story, in what happened? In that he cleaned himself up in that bathroom?
A Yes.
Q The fact that you found a Kleenex tissue or some other tissue kind of paper soaked in blood sitting in the sink, [is] also consistent with that?
A Well, it was soaked; yes, it is.
Q It also has some kind of red material?
A I think it has some blood. I do not remember what it is, but it is consistent.
Q Had Captain MacDonald murdered his wife and children and was staging a scene to make it appear as if he had not done this, would he wash himself up in the sink afterwards and leave the cloth in the sink? Would that be consistent with his initially killing and trying to hide it?
A Why not.
Q Well, don't you believe he flushed certain evidence?
A Yes.
Q Wouldn't he also have flushed that evidence down, if he had?
A Not necessarily; it corroborates his story.

Q What evidence do you think he flushed down the toilet?
A Well, I believe he flushed a surgical rubber glove and part of another, or at least part of one glove.
Q Did you find any odd number of surgical gloves in the house?
A What is "odd," Captain? I don't have any at my house.
Q If you have gloves, you have a pair, and if you have one, that is an odd number?
A You mean odd, numerically?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Did you find any evidence of fingerprints on the toilet handle, that flushes the toilet?
A No.
Q Did you find any bloodstains?
A No.

Q Was the blade checked for fingerprints by anyone?
A I think it was. I can't state that with any reasonable certainty because the fingerprint technicians were pretty much working on that; I am not sure, I think they did.

Q Did the toilet have a U-trap similar to the sink, that you could explore for debris?
A Well, I am not absolutely certain as to the makeup of it because we ran a roller thing and we opened up the sewer line where they join the house and where the sewer line joined with the main, outside; we opened that, and of course ran our roller through.
Q Did you experiment with the toilet to see whether that toilet would dispose of rubber gloves in, say, one or two flushes?
A No, we didn't. The reason for that being we wanted to search before we did any flushing; secondly, we had no real knowledge of what, exactly, we were looking for.

Q Did you believe Captain MacDonald was wearing rubber gloves at the time his wife and children were killed? Is that your theory?
A Yes.

Q Is this consistent with a crime of passion; is that a satisfactory hypothesis?
A I don't think that this was -- or did say at the time "killed"? I don't think that Captain MacDonald was in a state of frenzy at the time these injuries were sustained. The killing blows, I think, pretty well established by the pathologist, were the stabbings to the mother and oldest daughter. I think there was a time lapse between the frenzy and the killing blows.
Q When the frenzy began, was he wearing rubber gloves?
A Probably not.

Q In your opinion, the blows to Mrs. MacDonald were first received, were those of the club, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q But she was actually killed by the stabbing, is that correct?
A Correct. According to the opinion of the doctors and, of course he can't be -- it is just opinion -- she probably would not have died from the blows of the head; cosmetically she was injured but probably wouldn't have died.

Q If Captain MacDonald wore rubber gloves, why would he have to wash his hands in the sink and leave tissue there with blood in the sink, if he were wearing surgical rubber gloves when he was inflicting the wounds?
A Of course, he might have turned the water on and washed the gloves before he took them off and they do snap and would flick blood around on the walls or the sink. Somewhere along the line he had to injure himself; he had to do the stabbing and I presume a physician would want to do that in a sort of clinical place and certainly the only, that would be the only place in the house. That is just conjecture.

Q In your opinion, then, Colette attacked the child in the north bedroom and again, you feel that Captain MacDonald possibly saw this or came in and became enraged because he saw this and thereupon attacked Mrs. MacDonald, is that correct?
A If you will bear in mind that I have no real basis for that opinion, just a thought. It is a theory I don't believe can be destroyed without -- with the evidence we have.
Q Did he attack her in the north bedroom or east bedroom, with the club?
A Initially, or with the club initally --
Q You say he attacked her with the club initially?
A I do not know.
Q Well, what instrument did he use?
A I think probably the club was used before the knives ever entered into it. I think he probably could find a club or piece of wood readily available in one of the children's bedrooms rather than in the master bedroom, if that be the case.
Q So the attack took place in the north bedroom?
A Yes, I think so.

Q Would that be consistent with the theory that he had a domestic argument with his wife and the fact that the attack first took place in the north bedroom?
A It wouldn't be inconsistent.
Q What evidence shows that Mrs. MacDonald was first attacked in the north bedroom?
A Her blood in that bedroom.
Q How much blood?
A Quite a bit.

Q Where?
A On the sheet and on the spread and on the floor.
Q Any spattered on the wall?
A Yes, I believe there are some spots of A blood, a spattering of blood is a better term, on the wall.

Q If she were first attacked and beaten with that club in the north bedroom, how did she get from the north to the east bedroom or master bedroom?
A I don't know. Perhaps she was ambulatory.

Q Wasn't there a large amount of blood spotted on the walls in the east bedroom?
A Oh, yes.
Q Any evidence that continued down the hall to the east bedroom?
A I think it was taken up again in the east bedroom.
Q How do you account for Captain MacDonald's obtaining to the paring knife or gloves? Do you have any idea where he may have obtained those?
A Well, I know that this type of instrument is normally kept in the kitchen; the gloves, there were some rubber gloves found in the kitchen cabinet, underneath the sink.
Q Did he render this entire family insensible prior to the time he went to the kitchen to get the knives and gloves?
A Not necessarily.
Q You say he did, or did not?
A Not necessarily. Now, I suspect they were all unconscious at the time he went to the kitchen and that is where he got the knives and I assume he did.
Q And where was the older child; had he put her in the bed yet?
A I have no way of knowing and have no opinion about it. Her blood and hair appeared on that sheet, so she would have been laying on the sheet.
Q She would have been laying on the sheet in the east bedroom?
A Yes.
Q Back in her bed?
A Yes. I do not know of any way to actually reconstruct that, to be specific.
Q In other words, you believe all three of the deceased MacDonalds were rendered probably unconscious prior to the time Captain MacDonald obtained the rubber gloves or any other instrument, other than the club?
A Yes, uh-huh.
Q And at that time, you feel he went to the kitchen and obtained a knife or knives?
A Yes.
Q And returned and thereupon proceeded to methodically use all the instruments on all his family?
A Yes.
Q With the gloves on?
A Yes.
Q Then I assume that he washed himself in the bathroom, is that correct?
A It would appear that he washed himself in the bathroom, yes.
Q And disposed of the rubber gloves?
A The only thing he did was to wash himself with a wet tissue.

ATTORNEY EISMAN: And bled in the drain?

A And bled in the drain.

Q And when did he dispose of the weapons?
A Just prior to calling for the military police.
Q And he had to go outside in the rain to do this?
A If it were raining.
Q If it were raining?
A (Affirmative nod.)
Q And he went outside to the bush and threw them under the bush at the corner of the house, is that correct?
A Probably. I qualified that earlier when we talked about this, that I don't know that the weapons couldn't have been thrown from the back porch; the club certainly could have been. It was dropped outside of the door. Whether the other two could have ended up where they did by being thrown from the back door, I do not know, probably not.
Q He dropped the club right behind the back porch and placed the one knife, Old Hickory, I believe, and the icepick, underneath the bush at the corner of the house, and then returned to his house?
A Right.
Q How did he stab himself with the icepick, if he had already put the icepick outside?
A (No answer.)
Q He must have wounded himself prior to taking the weapons outside? Is that correct?
A Probably, if he was stabbed with the icepick.
Q What do you believe he was stabbed with?
A I do not know. According to medical opinion, he wasn't stabbed with the icepick at all, but with a knife.
Q With a knife?
A Right.
Q Which of the two knives we have discussed was it thought to be; which knife inflicted the wound?
A There was no opinion rendered as to that. The knife blades are pretty much a type configuration.
Q In other words, if he chose the knife with the bent blade to wound himself -- is that correct?
A Well, I am not sure, I do not want to be pinned down about this because according to what I am told by corpsmen and one thing and another, MacDonald's injuries weren't serious at all. They were serious, yes; if a pneumothorax becomes infected, of course that is serious, but as far as impairing his movements, one corpsman went so far as to say he could have run to the hospital. Other people have told me of him waking up and asking the MPs for mouth-to-mouth resuscitation because he was going in shock; a medical man, what did he do that for? I don't know; I wasn't there and I don't know what he was thinking, or as to which knife he used or as to the depth of the wound; it has to be a quarter of an inch; it had to make the pneumothorax, so it could have been most anything.
Q I don't want to qualify you as a doctor?
A Please don't.

Q You feel that he took the two weapons outside and came back in and used the Geneva Forge knife to inflict the pneumothorax wound?
A I think, again, putting myself in this position, because there is nothing to say, nothing substantial, which happened first that I know if -- I think I would want to go outside and deposit these weapons as the very last thing, probably because I would be afraid of being seen.

Q How much of the Captain's blood was found in the utility room?
A None.
Q If Captain MacDonald were stabbed with the icepick and then went outside to put it down, wouldn't it be logical to assume that some of his blood would have dripped in that area?
A No, according to the description of the wound by the medical personnel, not at all. In fact, he had quite a difficult time convincing them that he was injured, according to his statement and according to what we have been told. So there was no profuse bleeding at all.
Q There was no profuse bleeding in the bedroom by him?
A His blood was found, type B blood was found on the pajama jacket, which was later found draped across Colette.
Q Wouldn't that indicate to you he was stabbed before he placed the pajama jacket on top of his wife?
A Probably.
Q And if the jacket were ripped off in a struggle with his wife, how would he be stabbed afterwards, if he were still wearing that jacket?
A We don't know it was ripped off. The tears that appear in the jacket are from the bottom of the V to the front hem and the left seam which runs up the trunk and down the left arm; so we have to ask ourselves, "Would this in fact cause him to lose the jacket?"
Q Were the puncture marks in the jacket the same area where he received the wounds?
A Well, we don't know and we don't think, in fact, that MacDonald was injured with the icepick. When you say puncture wound, you mean a small, round puncture?
Q Incise wound?
A No, I don't think, there were puncture wounds in the jacket, but I don't think MacDonald was injured with the icepick.
Q Didn't he receive several superficial puncture wounds of his body -- by several, I mean more than five?
A No, I don't think so, and I am basing this on what medical personnel have tried to describe to us. Now, they talk about a wound among themselves and I don't know what they are talking about, frankly, but they try to explain it to me. We have what appears to be an incised wound, which causes the pneumothorax and some scrape wound on the upper left shoulder, perhaps through a blow and perhaps no way probably to find out, and around on the area of the body which is referred to as the left upper quadrant of the abdomen, and these are described as puncture wounds, per se, just wounds, and one of them, I think is described even as a slicing.
Q Was any of Captain MacDonald's blood found on the stick?
A No.
Q No way whatsoever?
A None.
Q Are you certain of that?
A I am reasonably certain.
Q I don't want to trap you.
A (No response.)

At this time the witness asked for a brief recess and during the brief recess it was determined that there would be no more questions at this time.

Note from Christina Masewicz: The original stenographer's misspellings of Conley, Kassob (and Cassob and Casob), Polk, Kalim, Trever, Summer, Collette, Kojownic and Christine were corrected to Connolly, Kassab, Paulk, Kalin, Tevere, Somers, Colette, Kriwanek and Kristen, respectively, in this transcript.



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