The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

1979 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
July 25, 1979: Robert Shaw, CID

 

F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 2:30 p.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT: All right, call your next witness, please.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, immediately before we do that, if you recall, I believe on Monday at the conclusion of the direct evidence of Mr. Ivory, the Government moved certain exhibits into evidence. That was not completed subject to the cross-examination as I understand by the defense, so we would renew that at this time.

THE COURT: Very well. Your motion is allowed.

MR. BLACKBURN: Just for the record, I am not positive that I included it Monday afternoon. If I did, this will just be a redundant exhibit -- 314, the white Hilton bathmat, whichever number that is -- I think it is 314.

(All previous Government exhibits marked during examination of witness Ivory were received in evidence.)

(Government Exhibit 314 was received in evidence.)

(Whereupon, ROBERT B. SHAW was called as a witness, duly sworn, and testified as follows:)

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 2:34 p.m.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Please state your name and tell us where you presently reside, sir?
A My name is Robert B. Shaw. I reside in Mainz, Germany.
Q How are you employed at the present time?
A I am a member of the Army.
Q In what capacity?
A I am a Special Agent in charge of the CID office located in Mainz.
Q How long have you been with the CID, sir?
A Since about 1962.
Q When you first went with the CID in 1962, what did you do?
A Well, I was first with the CID in 1962, as a Provost Marshal Investigator which meant that I was not accredited by the Department of the Army as an investigator. I was a military policeman, but I conducted minor investigations on my own, and I assisted accredited criminal investigators in the more major cases.
Q How long did you remain in that particular capacity, sir?
A Until 1965, when I was transferred to Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q When you went to Fort Bragg in 1965, in what capacity did you go and what did you do?
A I was assigned as a Squad Leader with the 503rd Military Police Battalion. I had a 14-man squad which was a part of the company. It was my duty to be the leader of those people in whatever mission we were assigned.
Q After that specific responsibility was concluded, what did you do next?
A Well, while I was assigned to the 503rd Military Police Battalion, we were sent on operational missions twice. One was to Selma, Alabama, in connection with some civil rights marches and demonstrations, and then again, we were sent to the Dominican Republic when the 82nd Airborne Division was sent down there by President Johnson. While I was there, I was chosen to be the chief of the bodyguard assigned to the United States Ambassador. I stayed there for one year.
Q Where did you go next?
A I was assigned to Livornor Italy, Camp Darby, Italy. I was assigned there as a platoon sergeant with the military police company. While I was there, I was chosen to go into the CID officially and become an accredited agent.
Q Now, as you became an accredited agent, what training, if any, did you receive in order to become an accredited agent with the CID, sir?
A Well, there were several prerequisites -- one being formal education, military experience, and after a person was assigned to the unit, until such time as he could be sent to various schools that they were interested in, their agents having received on-the-job training, which means, again, that you worked with accredited investigators who were more experienced than you and you gained experience from them.
Q After you became a CID investigator as you stated that year, where did you go next?
A My next assignment was to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. I arrived there in 1969.
Q What were your responsibilities at Fort Bragg?
A Well, at Fort Bragg, I was an investigator and I had a team of investigators who worked for me. I think we were a three-man team. It was a small team, but it was a team. We worked general criminal investigations, any felony crime that was reported to us or that we discovered in the pursuance of our other duties.
Q At this time, sir, do you recall the names of the other men of the three-man team?
A I recall one. His name was Jimmy Reeves. He was a Specialist 6 or a Sergeant E-6 at the time.
Q Prior to the 17th of February, 1970, how many, if any, death investigations did you participate in?
A Well, between 1962 and 1970, I was involved to one degree or another with probably 15 or 20 homicide investigations.
Q Directing your attention, sir, to the early morning of the 17th of February, 1970, as a result of your official capacity with the CID, did you receive a telephone call from Special Agent Ivory?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q What was the nature of that call, sir?
A Well, I was at my quarters. He called me at about 20 minutes after 4:00 in the morning of the 17th. He told me that he was at the scene of a killing and that there were three bodies there and he gave me the address as 544 Castle Drive on Fort Bragg. He asked if I would come to the scene and assist him. He told me that he had called other investigators also.
Q As a result of that telephone call, what did you do?
A Well, I got dressed and went into the office and picked up my investigator's kit. I got a CID sedan. Investigator Carl Black was also there -- apparently had also been called, and he and I went to the scene of the crime.
Q You speak of the investigator's kit. What, if you know, sir, did that kit contain?
A That was a briefcase. In that briefcase, I kept tweezers and knives and rulers and plastic bags and pieces of string and marking pencils and that sort of thing. It was all the equipment utilized to collect evidence.
Q From the time you first received the telephone call from Mr. Ivory until you got to the address at 544 Castle Drive, how much time, if you know, sir, elapsed?
A Well, according to my watch, I arrived at the crime scene at 0450 hours which is ten minutes to 5:00 in the morning.
Q As you and Mr. Black were driving to the crime scene, how many moving vehicles, if any, did you observe?
A I don't remember, but it wasn't many.
Q How many pedestrians did you observe?
A I don't recall seeing any pedestrians at all.
Q Who was driving?
A I was driving.
Q When you arrived at the crime scene, what did you do?
A Well, I parked my sedan across the street from the house.
Q If you would, sir, look at photographs 161(d), 162(a), and 164(b) and, if you would, select the photograph that you think best depicts where you parked, if that is possible.
A Well, none of these show the other side of the street -- the other side of Castle Drive across from 544. 1 did not park in any of these scenes depicted here.
Q So, you parked across the street. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you got out of your automobile, what did you do? Where did you go?
A Well, after I got out I parked very close to the U. S. Army ambulance that, was there, and I looked into the driver's side of the car, and I saw what I took to be a medic. It was a man with a white coat on sitting inside the ambulance. I approached the front door and, as I did, a military policeman who was standing there approached me as though to stop me.
Q Now, where precisely, if you recall, sir, did this take place?
A This was ten or 15 feet in front of the door of 554 (sic) Castle Drive, and he was standing in about that area. He stepped out into my path as though to stop me. I showed him my badge and credentials and identified myself and at the same time I looked beyond him and at the corner of the building I could see another military policeman standing over there. I don't recall now that any words passed between us. I went on up the steps and into the house and there I met Major Parsons who was the Deputy Provost Marshal of the 18th Airborne Corps.
Q Where was Major Parsons standing, if you know?
A He was standing just inside the door of the living room of the house. Alongside of him was a military police sergeant who was in uniform. I believe his name was Hageny.

MR. SEGAL: I could not hear that name, Mr. Shaw.

THE WITNESS: Hageny.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Would you spell it, sir?
A I believe that is H-a-g-n-e-y.
Q After you saw these two individuals, what did you do?
A I asked Major Parsons if the scene was being protected. He said, "Did you see a military policeman outside?" I said, "Yes, I did. I saw two of them," or something like that. He said, "Well, that is what they are doing there." I said, "All right." And I turned to the sergeant who was standing there alongside of him and I said, "Sergeant, go outside and identify all the military policemen who are here on guard duty." He may have asked me what for. I don't remember, but I did tell him eventually, "You will probably have to testify about it or we will need the list of names or something." I explained my directions to him.
Q As a result of that instruction to the sergeant, what did you observe him do?
A He left the quarters and went outside.
Q After this took place, what did you do next and where did you go?
A I asked Major Parsons where Ivory was. That is William Ivory who was the investigator that called me. He pointed out to his left and he said, "He is back in the bedroom at the end of the hall."
Q How long did you stay in this living room area?
A Well, I approached the hallway and when I did I was looking around me to see what was there and who was there and so forth. I saw Sergeant Alexander who was an Army photographer there who I knew.
Q Where was he physically located, sir, if you can recall?
A Yes. He was standing between the dining room and the living room doing something with his camera that he had. I walked towards him and I looked around the living room and I looked off to my left in the dining room, and I stopped for a moment and I looked into the kitchen. The light was on. I could see that and then I looked down the hallway and I could see Mr. Ivory standing in the bedroom at the end of the hallway. So, I went up a couple of steps and I walked down the hallway and there was a bedroom on my left. I stopped and I looked in the door. I saw the body of a young girl laying on the bed.
Q When you observed the young girl in the bed, which bedroom are you referring to?
A Well, I am talking about the north bedroom or Kristen's bedroom. I later found out that was Kristen MacDonald laying on the bed.
Q If you would, sir, let's move the model and I would ask you to come and stand behind it, if you would, and use the pointer if you need it. Would you point out, sir, where you were standing when you first observed the little girl in the bed?
A Yes. I was standing right here in the doorway. I did not enter the room at all. I looked in there. Then I stepped across the hall, and I looked into the south bedroom which was Kimberly's bedroom, and again I put my head and shoulders through the door and I looked in there, and I saw another little girl laying in this bed.
Q At this point, sir, what, if anything, had you touched in the house?
A Nothing.
Q Continue.
A I turned around again and I noted there was a short hallway here and a bathroom, so I stepped into this hallway and noticed that there was a piece of tissue laying on the floor, and I didn't go beyond that at all. I just looked into the bathroom through this door.
Q What did you observe when you looked into that bathroom, if anything?
A Nothing of significance at that point in time. I saw that this closet door was open a little bit. Then I stepped back into the hall, and I walked into the master bedroom where I found Mr. Ivory, Mr. Connolly who was an investigator, and Mr. Rossi.
Q Besides those individuals, who was in the master bedroom? You may resume your seat. Besides those individuals, who else was in the master bedroom at that time?
A Only the body of Colette MacDonald.
Q When you first went into the living room the first time, besides the individuals whom you have already named, how many other people were present in that living room at that time?
A No one that I remember.
Q When you went into that living room the first time, what, if anything, did you observe with respect to the furniture?
A Well, there was a lot of furniture in the room. There was a rug on the floor. There was an overturned coffee table; some things had spilled off the coffee table. There was a desk, an aquarium on the desk; there were some stereo components, a speaker that I remember -- two speakers -- a couch, an end table, and some things on the end table.
Q Mr. Shaw, if you would, sir, I'm going to ask you to look at the first dozen photographs in this book marked "Squires" and ask, sir, if you would, for the record, tell us which photograph you look at and whether or not it depicts the scene as you saw it when you went there?
A Well, the first photograph in the book is P-45.
Q If you would, sir, rather than using the numbers with P, for the alphabet, use the other numbers. And after you have looked at those, if you would, again, tell us which photograph it is and whether or not it does portray the scene at the time you saw it.
A After I have looked at all of them?
Q Yes, sir.

(Witness examines exhibits.)

A I have looked at all these photographs. The first one is number 21.
Q Maybe I can cut it short. With respect to the photographs in that book that you have looked at, what is the relationship, sir, of those photographs to the crime scene when you saw it that morning?
A They depict the crime scene the way I saw it.
Q Thank you, sir. After you first saw Mr. Ivory in the master bedroom, I believe, what, if anything, did you say to him and what did he say to you, if anything?
A I asked him what was going on and he said -- I don't recall his exact words -- but he gave me a briefing of what he knew up to that point and what he had been told and basically what he had seen with respect to the three bodies, and so forth. I said, "What do you want me to do?" and he said, "Well, I'd like you to take one of the bedrooms and start processing it." While I was there, he and Mr. Connolly were outlining the body of Colette MacDonald with a blue felt tip pen -- at that point. I was looking around the room myself and I saw a knife laying on the floor, over against the dresser. I said, "You guys know about that, don't you?" He said, "Oh, yeah." So, I took the pen from Connolly and I went over and I outlined that knife on the floor. I am not sure why I did that at that point but I just knew that it could easily be moved and I wanted to know where it was -- its position. I gave the pen back to Connolly and I walked out of that room and into the south bedroom.
Q Which was Kimberly's room?
A Kimberly's room.
Q When you walked into that room, what did you do?
A Well, of course, I knew there was a body of a young girl there. First of all, I was interested to see if she was alive. That is part of my basic training is to check for signs of life. I walked across the foot of the bed and onto the south side of the bed, which would be towards the front of the house. I leaned over the bed and I was leaning right over the little girl's face and neck and shoulder. She was lying on her left cheek and on her left side. I looked down into the open wounds that were in her throat that I could see very readily. I didn't see any signs of blood moving, pumping, or anything like that. I put my ear down close to her face and her nose and mouth to try to detect signs of breath. I could feel the heat from her body, but I could not see or feel any signs of motion -- no breath, nothing.
Q At this point, sir, what, if anything, had you touched?
A Still, nothing. So I decided that she was dead. I knew that there was a doctor coming and I am not sure how I knew that, but I knew that there was a doctor coming. Somebody had told me. I knew that the medics had been there already. So, I began to process that room as a crime scene, and by processing at that point, I mean that I was making observations of the room around me.
Q How long did this take you at this time?
A Well, it was a process that went on, but it was interrupted a number of times. The first time was by the arrival of a Dr. Neal, N-e-a-l.
Q Excuse me, before we go to that, you say that was the first interruption. How long, at that point, had you remained in Kimberly's bedroom?
A I may have been there five or ten minutes.
Q Besides making the observations of the room and checking Kimberly, what else, if anything, at that time had you done when Dr. Neal arrived?
A I had made some, or began to make some, preliminary rough sketches of the bed, the placement of the furniture -- that sort of thing.
Q Now proceed, sir. At the first interruption, how were you first interrupted?
A Dr. Neal came into the quarters and Ivory went by the door of the south bedroom, or Kimberly's room and said, "The doctor is here," as I recall. He went out into the living room. He got Dr. Neal, and he led him into the hallway, back toward the bedroom, from the living room.
Q Where were you standing at this time?
A I had left the bedroom and I was standing in the hallway. I heard Ivory telling Neal that it was a crime scene and please don't move anything that he did not have to move but to check the bodies to see if they were alive.
Q Which room did Dr. Neal go into first?
A They went into Kristen's room first, the north bedroom.
Q Where were you standing when they went into Kristen's bedroom?
A Well, I was in the hallway, and as they moved into the bedroom, I moved to the doorway of the bedroom where I could see what was going on. I did not enter the room.
Q What did you observe?
A Well, Ivory was pointing out places on the floor that had what were later found to be blood stains or puddles of blood, and he was pointing those out to Dr. Neal, telling him not to step in them. Dr. Neal went to the side of the bed, and he took Kristen's body by the shoulders and I believe he turned her over or moved her. And he looked at her and rolled her back to the way she had been when he came in the room, and he said, "She's dead"; and he turned around and he left the room. And they walked in there and went into the master bedroom.
Q Let me hand you Government Exhibit Number 60, and ask you whether or not that depicts Kristen MacDonald when you first saw her?
A Yes, it does.
Q Let me hand you Government Exhibit Number 70, and ask you whether or not that depicts Kristen MacDonald after she had been moved by Dr. Neal?
A Yes, it does.
Q Let me hand you what has been marked as Government Exhibit Number 57, and ask you if you can identify that photograph, sir -- what it represents?
A Yes, that's a picture of Kimberly MacDonald laying (sic) in the bed as I first saw her on the morning of the 17th.
Q You spoke, sir, that after the doctor left Kristen's room, he then went to the master bedroom, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q What did you do at that point?
A Well, Ivory was still leading to where he wanted him to go. He cautioned the doctor again, saying, "Please, if you don't have to move anything, don't move it. Don't do anything you don't have to do to determine if there is life." They went into the master bedroom. As I remember, Neal approached Mrs. MacDonald. He went between her body and the bed, and he crouched down next to her, and he reached out and he thumbed open one of her eyes, which was closed. Then he stood up, he walked around behind her head, he crouched down again -- I don't remember if he bent down or he stooped down, but anyway he crouched down; and he put his hands under her throat here -- or on her throat. He stood up and he said, "She's dead, too."
Q What part of Colette MacDonald did he move?
A He moved her eyelid, and that's all. He touched her under the chin here.
Q Where were you standing, sir, when Dr. Neal was in the master bedroom with Colette MacDonald?
A I believe I was in the doorway.
Q Who else was in the master bedroom besides Dr. Neal?
A Mr. Ivory was there, and Mr. Connolly may have been there. I don't specifically remember him being there.
Q In Kristen's bedroom who else besides Dr. Neal and Mr. Ivory was in that room?
A Connolly was there.
Q After Dr. Neal checked Colette MacDonald, where did you observe him go next?
A Well, he left the master bedroom, went down the hall, and went into Kimberly's room. He went to the south side of the bed, and at that point I cautioned him again. Much as I had done, he leaned down over Kimberly and reached out and he touched her on the cheek with his -- with the fingers of his left hand. Then he reached over and touched her left wrist, which was exposed. We could see that. He straightened up and he left the bedroom.
Q What, sir, did you observe Dr. Neal touch besides Kimberly MacDonald?
A Nothing else.
Q During this entire time that Dr. Neal was in the house, what medical instruments, if any, did you observe Dr. Neal to use?
A None at all.
Q After Dr. Neal left Kimberly's room, what did you do?
A Well, I followed him down -- part way down the hall and Ivory took him on out. I didn't see them leave entirely. I turned around and went back into the -- into Kimberly's room, and I continued the observations and the sketches and notes that I had begun to take before he arrived.
Q Now, this second time -- or I guess it was the third time -- in Kimberly's room, how long did you remain there at that time?
A Well, Dr. Neal was in the house about ten minutes, I think, so probably at that time it was another ten or 15 minutes that I remained in that room. That's when I began to trace the body outline that I could see -- the outline of the covers that were pulled up around her. I knew that eventually we would be pulling the covers back, but I wanted to be able to recreate where they had been lying. I was in the process of doing that when I became aware that Mr. Grebner, who was the chief of CID at Fort Bragg at that time, had arrived at the house.
Q And as a result of learning that, what did you do?
A Well, I left the south bedroom and I went out into the living room to talk to him.
Q What did you say to him, if you can recall?
A I recall telling him that it was a very complicated and involved crime scene, and that we should attempt to get a lab team -- a laboratory team -- from Fort Gordon, a team to made up of forensic specialists who would come and help us process the crime scene. He agreed that that was a good idea and that he would see if he could get it accomplished.
Q After that conversation with Mr. Grebner, sir, what did you do next?
A I returned to the south bedroom and continued my processing in that room.
Q Continued drawing the body outline?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did you remain in the bedroom at that point?
A Until just about 6:30, and Bill Ivory came to me and he said, "It's getting light outside, and we're organizing a search. Would you help us out?" I said, "Of course," and I left the south bedroom, walked down the hall through the living room and outside.
Q When you got outside, what did you do first?
A Well, I got my flashlight out of the MP sedan -- excuse me, out of the CID sedan. That's not correct, I misspoke myself. I had my flashlight all along. I had it with me. I took my flashlight out and I began to look around the premises and around the perimeter of the apartment itself. There was a rather wide sandy strip of dirt that ran all the way around the house -- three sides -- and I was looking in that specifically for footprints or pieces of evidence or anything that looked like it might be out of the ordinary.
Q What did you observe?
A Well, I was making that search and I heard an MP say, "Here's something." The voice was coming from around behind the house. So I walked around the house --
Q (Interposing) Before you go that far, sir, how many footprints, if any, did you find in the sand?
A None at all. I didn't find any footprints.
Q Do you know whether or not a footprint could have been made in the sand?
A Yes, I had occasion to make a test print myself. I stepped into the sandy soil and I left a footprint.
Q You may continue.
A The MP was pointing down on the ground. He had said, "Here is something." Close to the utility room entrance to the house, I saw a long piece of wood lying on the ground in the grass there. I played my flashlight around that area to see if there was anything else. I didn't see anything else. I approached the piece of wood. I crouched down by it and put the light over it. I saw red stains and what looked to me like hairs and fibers.
Q Where did you see these red stains and fibers?
A All over the club.
Q What was the weather like at this time?
A It was still raining. It was cold. It was in the low 40's. It had been raining off and on for some time. I gather that it was raining at that moment -- not heavy, but it was raining. At any rate, I examined this piece of wood. I sent for a photographer because I wanted to get a picture of it in place. I got the word back that the photographer didn't have any flashbulbs and he had either gone to get some or he was going to go get some. Because of the rain and because of what I could see on this piece of wood, I decided that it needed to be collected right away because of the fragile nature of this evidence. I got some tongue depressors out of my investigator's kit and I pushed them into the ground around this piece of wood so that I could keep track of where the thing had been. I took a ballpoint pen out of my pocket and I put an arrow on the top side of the club. I drew an arrow on there to indicate which side was up and more or less the direction north. I decided that I needed to collect it right then. I got a clean cardboard box. I picked the club up by the ends with my fingers and put it into the cardboard box and carried it to my CID sedan. I opened up the trunk when I got this thing out of the weather. Then, I marked the club in another position with my initials and the date and then I locked it in the trunk.
Q When you opened up the trunk, what did you do with the club?
A I had it in a box with one hand. I opened up the trunk, the light came on, and I could see pretty well what I was doing. As I say, I marked it with my initials and the date and put it into the trunk and locked the trunk.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, I would mark for identification Government Exhibit 306.

(Government Exhibit 306 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, if you would, sir, look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you can identify it?
A Yes, sir; I can.
Q What is it?
A This is the piece of wood that I picked up outside of the utility room entrance that morning.
Q How can you identify it?
A It has my initials "RBS" and the date "17/2/70." There is the arrow I put on it while it was lying on the ground.
Q Mr. Shaw, after you put that club into your car and locked the trunk, what did you do next?
A Well, I was continuing with the search. I had reached the point -- I went back to where I had stopped searching this sandy strip and had reached the point where there was a big bush at the corner of the house -- the back corner. As my flashlight was playing across the ground, something caught my eye. At the same time, an MP who was standing close to there said, "There is something" or "Here is something else." This MP saw it at the same time I did, in other words. I played my flashlight under the bush and I could see a paring knife and an ice pick lying on the ground underneath the foliage.
Q The weather was still raining at this time?
A It was still raining, but anyway, I got down there and I looked at it. I could see some stains on the knife that I remember, but it was under this fairly thick foliage on this bush. I tried to find out if the photographer had come back with the flashbulbs yet. He hadn't, but because it was under the bush, I decided that I did not have to collect that right away. What I did was get another box.
Q Where did you let the box from?
A In the trunk of the car. I think I had some in the back seat of the car and so forth. Anyway, I got one of these boxes or sent for a box and put it down over the knife and the ice pick. The MP standing with me there -- I told him to guard that box at that place. I said, "Don't let anybody touch that but me," because I wanted to continue this search until the photographer came; and at the same time, of course, I wanted this protected. Well, I didn't get out of sight of it as it turned out until the photographer came. I lifted up the box. He took a couple of pictures of it. I collected the evidence. I marked it with my initials and the date, put it in plastic bags, sealed the plastic bags, and took them in the house.
Q When you took them in the house, where did you take them or place them?
A I took them to the living room. Ivory was there and maybe Mr. Grebner was there. I am not certain, but I showed these things to Ivory. I remember that. We put them down in the living room because that was an area that we had designated as a safe area. We had already looked at it. When I say the "living room," I mean the area close to the dining room and the stereo speakers.
Q If you would, sir, come down to the model and tell us precisely where you regarded as a safe area?
A We put things down here by this chair that was there (indicating).
Q You may resume your seat.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would like to mark for identification Government Exhibit Number 312.

(Government Exhibit 312 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q I hand you what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 312 and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify it.
A Yes. My initials and the date are scratched into the metal part of the ice pick. That is the ice pick I found under the bush by the northeast corner of the house.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we will mark it on this bag and keep it in here. Your Honor, we would mark for identification at this time Government Exhibit Number 313.

(Government Exhibit No. 313 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 313 and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify it.
A Yes, sir. I can. That is the paring knife that I found under the bush with the ice pick.
Q Can you read on the handle, sir?
A It says "Old Hickory" on one side and on the other it says "RBS" "17/2/70."

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, if I could have just one moment.

(Pause.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time we would mark for identification Government Exhibit Number 79 and 981.

(Government Exhibits Nos. 79 and 981 were marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you these two exhibits and ask you to take a look at them and tell me what similarities, if any, there are.
A They are identical.
Q Can you identify what Government Exhibit 79 and 981 are?
A Yes. This is a black-and-white photograph of the area outside the utility room door.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, I would move these be moved into evidence.

THE COURT: Very well.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 79 and 981 were received in evidence.)

THE WITNESS: They show the area from which I picked up that piece of wood and the tongue depressors that I put into the ground.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:

Q Would you point, sir, to the tongue depressors that you are referring to?
A Yes. It is these sticks here. One was on one end; one was on the other; and there were two or three on each side just to place it on the ground to fix its location.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we have marked for identification Government Exhibit Number 82.

(Government Exhibit No. 82 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you this photograph and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify it and tell us what it is, if you can, sir.
A Yes. This is a color photograph depicting the entire utility room door at the rear of the quarters and the area that the club was laying in.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would move this exhibit into evidence, and ask to pass it to the jury.

THE COURT: Very well.

(Government Exhibit No. 82 was received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: It might speed things up if two members of the jury could look at the photograph at the same time. Your Honor, at this time we would mark for identification Government Exhibit 81 and 987.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 81 and 987 were marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, I hand you those two exhibits and ask you, first, whether or not you can identify them and what the relationship is between the two.
A Well, I can identify them. This is an enlargement of the small photograph that I have.
Q What is it, sir?
A This is the area under the bush, and it depicts the ice pick and the "Old Hickory" paring knife exactly as I found them.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would move these into evidence.

THE COURT: Very well.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 81 and 987 were received in evidence.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Would you point out, sir, where the ice pick is and where the "Old Hickory" -- where the other knife is?
A This is the ice pick, and this is the "Old Hickory" paring knife.
Q What is this right here, if you can tell?
A That is a piece of foliage or vegetation that was laying over it just like that.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time we would mark for identification Government Exhibit Number 80 and 986.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 80 and 986 were marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me ask, sir, with respect to these two exhibits, first, whether or not you can identify them and, if you can, the relationship between the two pictures.
A Yes. One is an enlargement of the small one that I hold in my hand and I can identify it.
Q What is it, sir?
A This is a longer view showing the bush, telephone pole, and the ice pick and the paring knife laying on the ground and part of the house.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would move these exhibits into evidence.

THE COURT: Very well.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 80 and 986 were received in evidence.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q If you would, sir, on this photograph, point out where the ice pick and the paring knife were located?
A Here is the paring knife, and here is the ice pick.
Q Thank you, sir. After you collected the ice pick and the paring knife, what did you do next, sir?
A Well, I continued my search of the perimeter of the house and the yard, and finding nothing more, I re-entered the quarters.
Q Through the front door or the back door?
A Through the front door.
Q After you went into the front door at that time, where did you go?
A I went back to the south bedroom.
Q That is Kimberly's room?
A Kimberly's room; right, and continued what I had been doing. The search was still going on outside.
Q Who else, at this point, can you recall, was participating in the search?
A The only people I remember for sure were some uniformed military policemen who were looking on roofs and looking in trash cans, and spread out through the neighborhood. The search had moved far beyond where I was at that point, that is why I went back in the house and did not continue with any of the outside search.
Q When you went into the living room area, who did you see, if anyone?
A I believe that Major Parsons was there, and perhaps Mr. Grebner was there. Ivory was inside, Connolly was still inside -- they were still in the house.
Q After you went back to Kimberly's bedroom, what did you do?
A I continued making observations and drawing the outline of the exposed body, and the blankets, and so forth.
Q Now where were you standing, or where were you, when you were drawing the body outline of Kimberly?
A I was moving from one side of the bed to the other.
Q What part of the bed were you on, if any part?
A On the bed?
Q Yes, sir?
A Not at all. I was standing alongside the bed.
Q During the outlining of Kimberly's body, what part of her body did you touch?
A Well, I was touching her back, her head, her neck, her exposed left arm -- anything that was above the covers -- the blanket, and the sheet that was on the bed. This is a slow process and it takes quite a bit of time to do it properly.
Q About how long did it take you to do the outline of Kimberly's body?
A Well, I don't remember anymore, but I think it took as much as 20 minutes. And, of course, at the same time, I was making observations about what I could see around me on the bed. There were a number of blood spots, and there were things like that on the bed that I was looking at also while I was making this outline.
Q After you continued making the outline, what did you do next?
A At about 8:00 o'clock, I was told that the bodies were going to be moved -- taken out of the house -- so I went out into the hallway and I saw Ivory coming up the hallway with two medics and a stretcher.
Q What kind of stretcher was it?
A It was a wheeled stretcher. They were rolling it along the hallway floor. There was some kind of mattress on it, I remember that. Followed by Ivory, they rolled that into the master bedroom. Yes, sir; rolled it into the master bedroom. Ivory and I decided at that point that we needed to collect some evidence that was on top of Colette MacDonald's body.
Q Which was what?
A Which consisted of a torn pajama top and a bathmat -- a white bathmat. The pajama top was up in her chest area. The bathmat was lower down -- across her abdomen. So before we let the medics get in there and move the body, I got a couple of plastic bags and Ivory got his tongs. He collected the pajama top first. I held the bag under it. He lifted it up; I held the bag under it. He dropped it in it. I closed the bag and sealed it and got another bag. He picked up the bathmat the same way. I held the bag under the bathmat; he dropped it into it; I closed it up and sealed it. We set the two bags aside. There was nothing else obvious there that was evidence laying on her except her clothing, of course. So that is when they picked up the body and put it on the stretcher.
Q Now you speak about holding the bag for Mr. Ivory. How close to Colette MacDonald's body did you hold that bag when he placed those items into them? In other words, was it over her body, or away from her body?
A Well, he lifted with his tongs -- he lifted the evidence straight up and I put the bag under the evidence, so the bag was right over her body both times.
Q After you sealed these two bags, what did you do with those bags?
A I set them aside and that would have been at the foot of the bed, not on the bed, but the foot of the bed.
Q In the master bedroom?
A Yes, sir. One of the medics went to Colette MacDonald's shoulder area and the other went to her feet and they lifted her up and put her over onto the stretcher. They wheeled her out through the door down the hallway, through the living room and outside.
Q Where were you during the time she was removed from the house?
A I believe I followed them to the living room and into the hallway.
Q You observed them leave the apartment, is that correct?
A Well, I remember them going down the steps. There were one or two steps down from the hallway to the living room level. I remember that clearly. I don't remember them going out of the house. I know that they went out at that time, but I don't remember seeing them do it.
Q After that, where did you go next, and what did you do?
A As soon as they were gone, two other medics came in with another stretcher. That was not a wheeled stretcher, that was a folding canvas type field stretcher, I think is what they call it. They brought that up the hallway and set it down on the hallway floor. Either Ivory or myself told them that, "There is a body in this room and a body in that room," indicating Kristen's room and Kimberly's room.
Q Excuse me, what part of the hall did they place the stretcher in?
A Well, the stretcher was --
Q (Interposing) You might, if you want to, come down and point that out?
A All right. Well, that yellow piece of paper there is pretty close to where that stretcher was, but it was not that far towards the master bedroom. It was a little more towards the living room. I think the end of the stretcher just extended beyond the doorway.
Q You may resume your seat. Did you have an occasion to observe anything on the floor in the steps area of the hallway?
A Yes, I did. There were a pile of clothing there, and that was right at the steps from the living room, and there was a pile of clothes there. There was a doll's head and I remember seeing some hair curlers and bobby pins, I think -- all there on the floor. When they wheeled Colette MacDonald's body out, I saw Joe Grebner, who was standing down there, reach over and pick those up and put them on the end of the couch.
Q All of those items?
A I remember the clothing. I could see him picking up the clothing and putting them on the couch. If he picked up the other things at that point, I don't know.
Q Going back to the stretcher in the hallway, which child was placed on the stretcher first; if you recall?
A Yes. They went into Kristen's room and, of course, they were escorted by Ivory who was telling them, "This is blood on the floor; don't step in it," et cetera. The two medics picked her up, one by her feet and one by her shoulders and carried her out and laid her on the stretcher towards the living room end of the stretcher.
Q The head was facing toward the living room?
A Yes, sir.
Q What happened?
A One of the medics asked, "Can we put the other little girl on the same stretcher?" I believe it was me that said, "Yes, you can."
Q Why did you say that?
A Well, because they were small and they didn't fill up the stretcher, and I didn't know if they had any other stretchers. I gave them permission to do it. But I said, "You're going to have to wait a minute." I went into the bedroom and I went to the south side of the bed and I pulled the bedding back, all the way to the foot of the bed, and I exposed her body.
Q You're speaking of Kimberly's bedroom, now?
A Yes, and I continued with the outline of the body -- that part that I had not been able to see before. That went fairly quickly. Once I had that finished, then I allowed them to move around to the south side of the bed -- the two medics -- pick her up, carry her out, and put her on the stretcher.
Q Which way was her head pointing on the stretcher, if you recall?
A I think it was in the same direction, to the best of my recollection. In other words, towards the living room.
Q Do you recall whether or not Kristen and Kimberly touched each other on the stretcher?
A I'm sure there was some contact, yes. They weren't laid on top of each other, or anything like that, but there was some contact, perhaps Kimberly's shoulder touched Kristen's leg, or something like that.
Q Besides the bodies of Kimberly and Kristen, what, if anything, did you observe the medics touch in that house? And the bed, I suppose, in Kimberly's room?
A Well, I am sure they touched the bottom sheets in both rooms, but they didn't touch any of the furniture, or anything like that.
Q When the bedding was pulled back off Kimberly's bed by you, what, sir, if anything, did you observe?
A Well, I saw a large blood stain under her body, and I saw what later turned out to be a urine stain under her body. I saw some wood splinters that were on the bed. I saw some hairs and fibers.
Q By fibers, what do you mean?
A I mean --

THE COURT: (Interposing) Tell us about the fibers when we come back at 4:00 o'clock. Members of the jury, don't talk about the case. This is the afternoon recess.

(The proceeding was recessed at 3:45 p.m., to reconvene at 4:00 p.m., this same day.)


F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 4:00 p.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT: Any further questions of this witness?

MR. BLACKBURN: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Proceed.

(Whereupon, ROBERT B. SHAW, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)


D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 4:01 p.m. (resumed)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, immediately before the break, I believe you were discussing fibers?
A Yes, sir.
Q I think, correct me if I am wrong, you stated you had observed some fibers on the bed after the bedding was pulled back; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q By "fibers," do you mean threads and things of that nature?
A That is correct.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would mark for identification at this time Government Exhibit 354.

(Government Exhibit 354 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 354, and ask, sir, whether or not you can identify it?
A Yes, sir. This is the bottom sheet from the bed in the south bedroom that Kimberly MacDonald was lying on. I can tell that by my initials that I put on it -- "RBS" and the date "17 February, '70" and the time "0715 hours."

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would mark at this time Government Exhibit 353.

(Government Exhibit 353 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 353, and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify it?
A Yes, sir. That is the other sheet from the bed -- the same bed -- Kimberly's bed -- with my initials and the date I collected it.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would mark for identification Government Exhibit 1125.

(Government Exhibit 1125 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 1125, and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify it?
A Yes, sir. This is a purple quilt that was on the bed in the south bedroom in Kimberly's bedroom. There are my initials and the date that I collected it.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, I would mark --

THE COURT: (Interposing) Let me see one lawyer from each side.


B E N C H C O N F E R E N C E

THE COURT: It seems that we are taking an unnecessary amount of time to identify things. Why don't you just get a series. They can't slip anything by you I am sure.

MR. SMITH: No, we are watching them.

THE COURT: But just say, "We now offer these exhibits which I represent to the Court and jury would be identified."

MR. SMITH: Fine. That is fine.

THE COURT: Just do it en masse.

MR. BLACKBURN: That will be fine. Let me tell you what I have the rest of this afternoon like that as I can recall. This thing I have got next and the paring knife, the Geneva Forge knife that was found in the master bedroom.

MR. SMITH: All right.

THE COURT: I think all he needs to do is just take the item up and get it marked, and as he announces or hands it to the witness, we will write down what it is. That will work.

MR. BLACKBURN: Let me ask you this, Wade, while you are here. One of the things we are contemplating doing is having our own demonstration to some degree. What I propose to do is use this big table right in front of the Clerk to spread, you know, generally, the sheet on there and the bedding and have him show us how he moved the bedding back.

MR. SMITH: We would welcome that. That will be fine. We have no OBJECTION to that. We don't go in much for experimentation, Judge, but we would be willing to have him do it.

(Bench Conference terminated.)


MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time, I would mark for identification Government Exhibit 1126, and state to the Court that this witness could identify this as the top bedspread of Kimberly MacDonald, and Your Honor, these previous bedding that I have just had marked, I would also move those into evidence.

THE COURT: All right, sir, they will be received.

MR. BLACKBURN: As I understand, I left out Government Exhibit Number 80, which is a small photograph.

THE COURT: All right.

(Government Exhibit 1126 was marked for identification.)

(Government Exhibits 80, 353, 354, and 1125 were received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would also mark for identification and move into evidence Government Exhibit 311, which is the Geneva Forge paring knife found in the master bedroom.

(Government Exhibit 311 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 322, the throw rug found near the feet of Colette MacDonald in the master bedroom, we would also mark it and move it into evidence.

THE COURT: All right.

(Government Exhibit 322 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 309, we would move into evidence, part of the carpet and some debris from the master bedroom.

(Government Exhibit 309 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Government Exhibit 306, we would also move into evidence as a piece of carpet from the master bedroom.

(Government Exhibit 306 was marked for identification.)

MR. BLACKBURN: And an exhibit previously marked this morning, Government Exhibit 1124, a piece of carpet from the master bedroom, we would move into evidence.

(Government Exhibit 1124 was received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 331, a piece of wood which came from a locked storage shed of the MacDonald apartment we would move into evidence.

(Government Exhibit No. 331 was marked for identification and received into evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Also, Government Exhibit 328 which came from the locked storage shed of the MacDonald apartment.

(Government Exhibit No. 328 was marked for identification and received into evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Government Exhibit 330 which came from the south bedroom -- a piece of wood.

(Government Exhibit No. 330 was marked for identification and received into evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Also, Your Honor, Government Exhibit 320 and 329, latex gloves, Government Exhibit 329 having some indication of paint on them.

(Government Exhibit Nos. 320 and 329 were marked for identification and received into evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: The paint-stained gloves had come from the locked storage shed. That completes that portion, Your Honor.

THE COURT: These exhibits will be received subject to your representation to the Court and jury that this witness or some witness who is readily available would identify them as the objects which you have described them as being without objection.

MR. BLACKBURN: Yes, sir. I would represent to the Court Mr. Shaw.

THE COURT: Very well. Members of the jury, rather than have each exhibit laboriously identified by the witness, where there has been no objection to the line of exhibits, I suggested that this method be employed instead, and I believe it would save us all some time. Proceed.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, after Kimberly and Kristen were placed on the stretcher in the hallway, what next, sir, did you observe?
A At that time a U. S. Army chaplain was allowed to come into the hallway, and he did, and he approached the stretcher. He stood over it and he leaned down and I think he administered the last rites of the Catholic Church I believe is what he did. At any rate, he made a gesture that appeared to be the sign of the Cross over their foreheads. He did not touch them. He straightened up and he turned around and he was taken out. At that time --
Q (Interposing) Excuse me. Did you observe the chaplain come into the hallway?
A Yes, I did. He was brought to the entrance of the hallway by Major Parsons, I believe.
Q Continue, sir.
A He turned around and walked back to the end of the hallway where he was met by Major Parsons and taken out.
Q What did you do next?
A I stood aside. I was not standing next to the stretcher. I was a bit away from it in the doorway of the south bedroom. The medics picked up the stretcher and they carried it out of the house. Mr. Connolly was assigned to go with the bodies and the medics to the hospital to continue the processing for evidence there which would have been the collection of the clothing.
Q After that what did you do?
A When Colette MacDonald was moved and put onto the stretcher, Mr. Ivory had called my attention to something that was in the body outline under Colette MacDonald. I didn't know what he was talking about. He and I returned to the master bedroom and he showed me something that was sticking up out of the pool of blood that was under her head. To the best of my recollection, that was a wooden splinter. I am not certain but I think it was. There were two or three wooden splinters in that area. There was also -- I remember very well -- there were some fibers or threads in that pool of blood, and he pointed those out to me and we got down on our hands and knees and we looked at them and we found that these fibers or threads were spread out all over that shag carpet in that area. So, we looked at those and we had the photographer who was there photograph some of those or part of that area showing some of these items.
Q How long did you remain in the master bedroom at this time?
A I stayed there with Ivory at that time until the laboratory team arrived at about 11:00 o'clock that morning.
Q Now, from that time when you went back after the bodies had been removed until about 11:00 o'clock that morning, what were you doing in the master bedroom?
A Well, we were searching for evidence and that included looking over the floor and looking over the furniture that was there, the walls, and the ceilings for anything that we could find. We looked through the dresser that was on the wall -- on the outside wall of the quarters -- I think it was the south wall.
Q What did you find there?
A At that time I didn't find anything that was unusual and, of course, we really didn't know what we were looking for either. It could have been anything. It could have been another weapon. It is difficult to say. We were searching for evidence. We were marking or noting the presence of fragile evidence so that it could be collected by the laboratory team. That pretty much occupied our time until they got there.
Q Who was there besides yourself at that time during this three-hour period?
A Mr. Rossi may have been periodically, but it was Mr. Ivory and myself.
Q You spoke of the ceiling a moment ago. What, if anything, did you observe about the ceiling?
A There were blood spots on the ceiling. There were several spots and they ran in a line more or less a north-south axis of blood spots.
Q Is what you testified now approximately the best you can recall all that you were doing during this three-hour period until 11:00 o'clock?
A Yes, sir.
Q Going back to Kimberly's bedroom, can you describe more specifically, if you can, the general location of the threads or fibers that you observed when you pulled back the bedding?
A Well, earlier I had observed some on the pillows. They were exposed; they were not under the bedding.
Q Which pillow, if you can recall?
A Well, I know I saw some on the north side of the bed on the pillow.
Q Was that the pillow --
A (Interposing) That would be closest to the hallway rather than the outside pillow.
Q That was not the pillow on which Kimberly's head was on. Is that correct?
A No; her head was on the south pillow, and when I pulled back the bedding, there were some of these threads and fibers on the bottom sheet.
Q Directing your attention to about 11:00 o'clock on that morning, what, if anything, happened at that time?
A At about 11:00 o'clock, the laboratory team arrived. That consisted of two fingerprint examiners, a photographer, and a chemist.
Q Do you recall the names of those individuals?
A Yes, sir; I do.
Q Who were they?
A There was Mr. Medlin and Mr. Turbyfill who were fingerprint examiners. Mr. Page was the photographer, Mr. Chamberlain was the chemist.
Q When they arrived at 11:00 o'clock, what happened next?
A Well, when they arrived, we briefed them on what we knew to that point -- showed them through the house to acquaint them with the magnitude of the problem that we had and discussed ways and means of collecting all of the blood spots and hairs and fibers and splinters and powders and other things that we knew we were going to have to collect. We devised methods. We set up more or less an organization to do this.
Q Besides you and Mr. Ivory and these four people from Fort Gordon, who else, if anyone, was in the house at that time?
A I think when they arrived, Major Parsons was gone and he had been replaced by a military policeman who was at the front door. There were still military policemen around the outside of the house. I think when they arrived, we were then alone in the house. In other words, the six of us, or shortly after they arrived -- I don't remember at that moment.
Q After the organizational part of your first meeting, what did you do?
A Well, the first thing I did was accompany Mr. Page while he took pictures. I was taking notes for him as he took pictures. He took pictures throughout the house. When he was finished with that or thought he was finished inside the house just taking overall pictures, he went outside and took some exterior views.
Q Did you go with him outside?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q You spoke of the notes that you took while Mr. Page was taking photographs. What did you do with those notes?
A I gave them to him. They were his notes. I was just writing them for him.
Q About how long did it take, sir, for you to accompany Mr. Page on this round of photography?
A We were in the house doing that probably 30 or 40 minutes.
Q After you did that, what did you do next?
A Then, Chamberlain and I, the chemist, went to work in the master bedroom. We began collecting the fragile evidence.
Q Were you all the first or second group to go into the master bedroom after the Fort Gordon team arrived?
A Well, we were the first because I recall that Mr. Chamberlain was concerned about fingerprint powder interfering with his blood analysis, so he had someone or he called the Fort Gordon laboratory. He talked to his Chief Chemist. The Chief Chemist said, well, or indicated that it would be better if he collected the blood evidence first and not get any fingerprint powder in it. As I recall, he was not absolutely certain whether it would interfere with his testing or not. Anyway, he said, "Collect the blood evidence first." We did that. In those areas where there was blood evidence to be collected, we collected it and then the fingerprint people followed us. Where there was no indication that there was blood to be collected or other body fluids, the fingerprint people went ahead.
Q When you went into the master bedroom, which portion of that room did you start processing first?
A We started on the south wall which would be the front wall of the quarters -- on the side of the bed. I think that the first places we took evidence from or blood from was the radio that was there under the window.
Q I take it that your major responsibility was to take the notes for Mr. Chamberlain; is that correct?
A That is correct; yes. I took notes and when we would find a spot, I would draw a circle around it on the wall or a square around it and give it a number so that later on, we could come back and say that spot number 10 was taken from spot number 10 on the wall that I had numbered. That was the system that we devised.
Q How long did you remain in the master bedroom with Mr. Chamberlain?
A I think we were there that day until about 10:30 that night and then we stopped for the evening. We took what he had collected and we had collected so far. We all got in the CID sedan. We went to the CID office and the evidence custodian was there waiting for us. What he did was give us access to a large bin that we could secure in the evidence room so that we could take this evidence that we had collected and put it in that bin and that way, nobody would have access to it but us. We did that, as a matter of fact, each day at the end of the day whenever we stopped at night. The evidence we had collected, we would take to the evidence room.
Q After you left the master bedroom, as far as processing the crime scene was concerned, which room did you go into next if you can recall?
A I am not certain whether we did the hallway next or the main bathroom, but we went from room to room. It may well have been the hallway next and then the main bathroom. I am not certain.
Q After you did the hallway and the main bathroom, what did you do next?
A It would have been the south bedroom.
Q How long did you remain there?
A I think it was all day. Yes, on the 20th of February, the laboratory team was in the house all week.
Q After the processing by you and Mr. Chamberlain of Kimberly's bedroom, where did you go next?
A Somewhere in that period, we did some work and not much because there wasn't much there. We did some work in the living room, but what day that was, I don't recall right at this moment, but there were a couple of spots on the living room wall that we thought might be blood. We went in there and collected those. There was a magazine lying there -- an Esquire magazine that had some apparent blood on it. We collected that or we looked at it. I think Mr. Ivory collected that finally. There was a pair of eyeglasses laying on the floor. We looked at that. There was a spot on it. Mr. Chamberlain took that spot off. We put the glasses back.
Q Who picked the glasses up?
A I did.
Q For what purpose?
A Well, to look at them and besides, there was a spot on one of the lenses that looked like blood.
Q You put the glasses back down after he took the spot of blood?
A Yes, sir.
Q Besides the glasses, where in the living room, sir, if you can recall, did you take or did Mr. Chamberlain take any blood samples?
A Besides the glasses, there were some spots on the wall behind the couch. I don't know that they were blood, but they looked like they might have been so we collected them. There was a spot on the entrance to the hallway -- that would really be the hallway floor. There was a spot there we collected. That's what I remember.
Q After you processed the living room area with the blood with Mr. Chamberlain, what did you do next?
A I think by that time we had collected just about everything that we saw that there was to collect and they were ready to go through all this evidence and inventory it, and make sure that we had made our notes correctly, and so forth. We spent a good deal of time on Saturday, the 21st, doing that; and also we had had to spend some time getting the engineers to come to the house and bring us a power saw because we had to cut up some portions of the floor in the hallway and in the north bedroom -- the entrance to the north bedroom. So our time then was spent doing that, and also, like I say, inventorying this evidence, because Mr. Chamberlain was going to sign for everything that he had collected, and we had to go over it piece by piece. During that week sometime, we had obtained the services of another chemist, who happened to be at Fort Bragg on a court martial; and he worked with Mr. Ivory. So they were going through their inventories and so forth. We called or arranged for the services of some plumbers to come out and take the sink traps out, to look at them during that week. We had the sewer line dug up outside the quarters either Friday or Saturday, I'm not sure which. But it was organizational type things -- wrapping it up, in other words.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, may I have just a moment.

(Pause.)

MR. BLACKBURN: I have some exhibits which I will move in, in just a moment.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time I would mark first for identification a photograph, Number 480, to which Mr. Shaw has just testified concerning some suspected blood spots in the living room.

(Government Exhibit Number 480 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Exhibit 316 marked for identification and moved into evidence the eyeglasses of Dr. MacDonald found in the living room.

(Government Exhibit Number 316 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Also, sir, an expanded set of blueprints of the MacDonald apartment that were verified by Mr. Shaw as representing suspected blood stain areas that would be Government Exhibit 579.

(Government Exhibit No. 579 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: 580, 581, 582, 583 through 588.

(Government Exhibits Nos. 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, and 588 were marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Also, with agreement of counsel, we will mark for identification and move into evidence Exhibit 335, which is the footboard of Kimberly MacDonald's bed. We can have the clerk mark those. They are not in the courtroom at this time; they are upstairs.

(Government Exhibit 335 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Also, Exhibit 637, which is the headboard of Kimberly's bed.

(Government Exhibit 637 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 317, which is the door lock assembly and dead-bolt from the kitchen.

(Government Exhibit 317 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Government Exhibit 318 from the utility room.

(Government Exhibit 318 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: And from the front door, Government Exhibit 319.

(Government Exhibit 319 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would move all of these into evidence.

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. BLACKBURN: I would represent to the court that this witness would testify, with respect to those items.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, after this first week period, at the MacDonald apartment, what did you do next, with respect to this crime scene?
A Well, we devised a way to lock it and secure it, which amounted to putting hasps and locks on the door so that we could call off the 24-hour Military Police guard that had been on it.
We devised a system whereby we could use railway seals that people would have to sign for and break in order to enter the quarters. We spent a good deal of our time after that organizing our notes and our files on what we had, looking at property receipts, trying to get some grasp of all of the evidence that we had taken out of there. We had nearly 400 items that went out of that house.
Q When you speak of property receipts, what do you mean?
A Well at that time, there was a Department of the Army form 19-31. It is a form that lists the item and then it has signature blocks for the item to be released from one person and accepted by signature by another person, and so forth -- oftentimes called a chain of custody form.

MR. BLACKBURN: Excuse me just one moment, Your Honor.

(Pause.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we have marked for identification Government Exhibit 1126.

(Government Exhibit No. 1126 was marked for identification.)

MR. SEGAL: What is the number on that, please?

MR. BLACKBURN: 1126. Excuse me.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 1126 and ask you if you can identify what it is, sir.
A Yes, sir; I can.
Q What is it?
A Mr. Rossi, who I mentioned earlier, was given the detail of going into the closet that I mentioned being in a small hallway just outside of the main bath and inventorying the items that were in there. I helped him do that to a certain extent. We went through it and we spent off and on a couple of hours together -- maybe three hours. While he was doing this, I was assisting him as I had time.
Q How did you assist him do this?
A I would pull items out, read labels or descriptions or what have you, and he would write it down. We would look at it and put it into a box.
Q Did you see him write descriptions down?
A Yes; I did, and I saw him initial and date each page.
Q Did you ever verify what is on those pages with what was in the boxes?
A Well, most of these things, if not all of them, I pulled them out of the closet myself.
Q One at a time?
A Yes.
Q Read off what was on them?
A Yes, and what was on the label and watched him write it down.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time we would move this into evidence. I would state to the Court that this is a Xerox copy. The original is somewhere in this courtroom, and we will locate and substitute it later.

THE COURT: All right, sir.

(Government Exhibit No. 1126 was received in evidence.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time we would like to ask the witness to come down and, if he could, on the table here at the foot of the clerk to place the sheet and the top sheet and the blanket, if he could, on that table and demonstrate the manner in which he pulled the bedding back and first saw the fibers.

THE COURT: Can you do that?

THE WITNESS: I think so. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead.

(Witness complies.)

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, while we are waiting, I will introduce the original which we had all along, and substitute that for the Xerox copy.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR.BLACKBURN:
Q What does this right now represent, sir?
A Well, it represents the -- Kimberly's bed, more or less as I found it, except of course she was in it. The back of her head is marked here and the left arm is marked. The blanket line was marked. This was fluffed, of course, because she was under it.
Q Where was the northern pillow?
A The north pillow was on this side. This was the dividing line between the pillows. This was the top of the pillow. This was the bottom of one pillow; and this was the bottom of the other. There is an area marked here for her right elbow, left arm, and the blanket line.
Q What are those markings on the top of the bedspread?
A These marks represent marks that the chemist put on this piece of bedding at the laboratory after it was already collected. My markings show down here and also Mr. Chamberlain's markings. They were put on at the crime scene.
Q Okay, now, if you would, sir -- recognizing the difficulty with the table -- as best you can, would you demonstrate to us how you pulled that covering back from the bedding and what you saw when you did?
A Well, this -- it is difficult to set this up exactly as it was. Part of this was wrapped under her body something like this.
Q You mean it was tucked in?
A Yes, from about her left underarm area to her left hip, which wasn't very far, but it was about like that -- partially under her body. Now, when I came into the room with the medics they stayed by this door which would be here, and I approached the bed from this side, which would be the exterior wall to my back, and grasped it more or less like this, leaning across the bed, and pulled it back, pulled it out like that with my left hand, and pulled it back. I moved her around the bed as best I could and pulled it back far enough so that her entire body was exposed.
Q And then that is when you drew the rest of the body outline?
A That is correct.
Q If you would, sir, point out where you first observed threads or fibers? The jury could stand up to see a little better.
A As I said earlier, I first observed threads and fibers -- and/or fibers -- on the pillow, the north pillow; but after as I had pulled this back, I saw debris in this area.
Q By "debris," what do you mean?
A Well, things on the sheet -- hairs, fibers, threads. I do not know what all. I just knew there was something there. I did see some fibers or threads. After I got that pulled back, I moved over to this area here (indicating) at the foot of the bed. The medics came in here. One took her by the shoulder area and one brought her ankles together. They picked her up and they carried her out of the bedroom.
Q Did either of the medics get on the bed?
A Not at all. One stood approximately where I am and the other stood here (indicating).

MR. BLACKBURN: Thank you, sir.

(Counsel confer.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you Government Exhibit 73, and ask you, sir, to take a look at it and ask whether or not you can identify it, sir?
A Yes, sir; I can. This is Kimberly's bed after the body was moved, and you see in here, there is a piece of knitted material -- a garment of some kind that was left on the bed after she was moved. Immediately, I called Squires in and had him take a picture of this bed the way it was.
Q How long, sir, if you know, did this pink knitted material remain there?
A Not very long because I picked it up and put it in a bag and I had him take another picture of it without it in order to see the markings and all of that that was on it -- a few minutes, perhaps, or a half hour.

MR. BLACKBURN: Just one moment.

(Pause.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q Mr. Shaw, let me hand you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 215, and ask you, sir, whether or not you can identify that?
A Yes. That is the second picture that was taken of the bed after the body was removed and after the knitted garment that I spoke of was removed.
Q Where is the knitted garment in that photograph, sir?
A It is on the top pillow up here -- excuse me -- not on the pillow -- on the bedding.
Q Do you know who placed it there?
A I think that I did.
Q Finally, sir, let me hand you Government Exhibit 214, and ask you whether you can identify that?
A Yes, I can. That is just a broader view of the bedroom. Again, it shows Kimberly's bed after her body has been removed and after the knitted garment has been placed upon the bedding.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, that concludes our Direct Examination of Mr. Shaw. The defense may cross-examine.

THE COURT: Do you feel like you can finish by 5:00 o'clock?

MR. SEGAL: I think not, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Suppose we take our overnight recess then and reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:30. Members of the jury, we will let you retire now. Please remember the cautions and instructions of the Court. I will be asking you from time to time if anybody has disobeyed. Have a good night, a safe trip home and back, and come back tomorrow morning at 9:30. Let the jury retire, please.

(Jury exits at 4:57 p.m.)

MR. BLACKBURN: I just wanted to make sure that we had moved that into evidence so the Clerk could take care of it.

THE COURT: You have got your reporter here and they will be received. Anything else before we recess?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor. I have a matter if I may. I would like to put on the record the problem that we have in this case. On July 17, I delivered two letters to the Government concerning certain materials that Dr. Thornton needed in order to complete his examination. We have agreed that as soon as he completes that, we will give that report to the Government, but we are unable to do that. We need both certain cuttings which we have not received yet, and we have also asked the Government if they would please make available the original negatives of certain photographs. There is a considerable difficulty with some of these photographs because they were not well made. At least, the prints we have are not adequate for our purposes.

THE COURT: Was this some matter that you wanted to take up in Chambers?

MR. SEGAL: No, Your Honor. It is up to Your Honor.

THE COURT: I had a note that you wanted to see me in Chambers afterwards.

MR. SEGAL: No, Your Honor. I said in Court.

THE COURT: Here in Court?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor, just to briefly find out what we can do to expedite this matter and come to a resolution.

THE COURT: I misunderstood your note. Go ahead.

MR. SEGAL: At this point, Your Honor, I am concerned -- and it has been five days since we requested both the negatives and the cuttings. We have not received them. It just simply is making the work of the defense forensic experts more difficult, and I would like to see what can be done to possibly expedite it and make the material available. If there is a problem about it, we should be told about it, but we have not received any answer in writing or otherwise in this regard. I can show Your Honor the copies of the letter, if I may.

THE COURT: I don't want to see them. I don't need to see the letters. You say you wrote him and asked for something and he didn't give it to you.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, I understand your position. What is the Government's position?

MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, if I may. Dr. Thornton was here some, I guess, three weeks, at least, ago. At that time, we tendered to Dr. Thornton numerous samples from the objects that he examined at that time -- specifically, pieces of the suspected surgical gloves that have been introduced in the last few days for examination by neutron activation analysis which doesn't take a great deal of time, and besides, it was going to be done by another examiner. We have not received the report back on that, nor have we received any report on Dr. Thornton's examination of the Defendant's pajama top or other objects -- the sheets. He examined a large number of things outside the realm of blood testing that was here.

THE COURT: Was there any understanding you would be furnished these things?

MR. MURTAGH: We would be furnished a report, Your Honor. That was the understanding.

THE COURT: Now are you withholding giving him anything else until he gives you some quid pro quo?

MR. MURTAGH: Something like that.

THE COURT: All right, now, he's got the ball.

MR. MURTAGH: Thank you, sir.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, the letter says we need these materials, the photographs and the others, so that he can finish his analysis of the pajama top. We have received no report, either orally or in writing, from Dr. Thornton. We will comply fully with the direction of the court, but we just have to have this material. The Government has been sitting on this for nine years. There is no reason why we can't get the negatives and these cuttings and get them a report and us a report soon. At least, if they were going to resist it they should have said they were going to resist it. We've waited for five days.

THE COURT: (Interposing) They are not going to resist it, but they want to know what they are getting for their end of the deal --

MR. MURTAGH: (Interposing) Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Well, are you ready to give them anything?

MR. SEGAL: As soon as we have this, we will be able to finish the report, Your Honor. This was part of the materials.

THE COURT: Don't you have part of your report already?

MR. SEGAL: Nothing, sir, nothing.

THE COURT: You don't have anything?

MR. SEGAL: Nothing, either orally or in writing.

MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, if I may, the cuttings which were requested by letter do not include the pajama top. I might add that Special Agent Murray came in on Sunday and took some time making those cuttings for the exhibits which the Defense requested, and some additional exhibits which we feel they should have in the interest of completeness. That has nothing to do with the examination that Dr. Thornton conducted on the sheets and the pajama top for the neutron activation analysis. We have -- we may have, let me correct myself -- all of the negatives which the Defense seeks upstairs. However, I am reluctant to let those negatives out of my custody. I did offer to make them available to Mr. Smith in the office for any examination that he wanted to conduct. We have furnished photographs, I might add, 8" by 10" photographs, without cost to the Defense of all of those negatives.

THE COURT: He says they weren't any good.

MR. SEGAL: Anyone that saw them in court would recognize that they are not the best quality. Your Honor, we will give all the reports to the Government -- we are not resisting that -- but we are not getting them back piecemeal from our experts.

THE COURT: Well, we are down to the negatives.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Now you've got some expert on that?

MR. SEGAL: Dr. Thornton and his laboratory, with Mr. Morton, is going to do, I think, much better quality photographs. We will give the Government copies of all our new prints. There is nothing that will be withheld from them. We are just as concerned as they are that they would be preserved carefully. We will make sure they will be transported and returned safely. They will get copies of everything that we have.

MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I gave Dr. Thornton the same pictures that we intend to offer in evidence. He seemed to be perfectly happy with them at the time I gave them to him. There was one question about the readability of a number on a tag. I got an enlargement and I showed it to him and he was satisfied at that time. I do represent to the court that the photographs are of good quality. They were made on 4 by 5 negatives and they are not -- well they are good quality. That is all I would say on that, sir.

MR. SEGAL: Apparently, Mr. Murtagh has never heard of photo enhancement. The photos will be, I think, better because there are techniques beyond which the ordinary photographer who did this used. They will see what there is. Your Honor, there is no secret involved here and I don't understand what the basis of the resistance is. They are going to get all the reports, copies of all of the photographs --

THE COURT: (Interposing) He is afraid if they go to California, they will never get back. That is what he is afraid of.

MR. SEGAL: They have me as hostage, Your Honor. I am going to be here until they get back.

THE COURT: I'm not sure if he would settle for that as a quid pro quo.

MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I would cite O'Henry's "The Ransom of Red Chief" on that.

THE COURT: Well, suppose you send one negative and let them come back and we will take a comparison and I will let you show me what comes out and if it looks like whatever that process is -- and frankly, I never heard of it either -- if that is so much superior to yours, I think you would be the first to want to get them. If they don't, and his people say they don't have to have them, then that hurdle is over. If they come back and say they have to have them, it begins to look like we'll be here until Christmas. Then we will put in our order now, early.

MR. MURTAGH: Yes, sir, if they will only show us the photograph that they wish the negative of, that would speed things up. I have furnished them with those copies.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. MURTAGH: Thank you.

THE COURT: "The Ransom of Red Chief" -- that is a pretty good story. That is a North Carolina author, incidentally. Anything else?

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I don't either -- let's go home. Take a recess until tomorrow morning at 9.30.

(The proceeding was adjourned at 5:06 p.m., to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, July 26, 1979.)


Note from Christina Masewicz: The Court Reporter's misspellings of Graebner and Hagney were corrected to read Grebner and Hageny in the above transcript.

 

 

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