The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

1979 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
July 24, 1979: William Ivory, CID (Part 1)

 

F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 9:30 a.m.

THIS CAUSE came on for further trial before The Honorable Franklin T. Dupree, Jr., United States Chief District Judge, and a jury, on Tuesday, July 24, 1979, at Raleigh, North Carolina.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Contrary to some reports in the press as to the ruling the Court had made on a Motion to Exclude Witnesses, such motion was within the last five minutes handed to the Court for the first time, and the Court will now rule on it for the first time.
Rule 615 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, under which this Court operates, states in substance that upon motion of either party that the Court shall exclude all witnesses except natural parties and parties designated to represent natural parties.
The motion having been made by the Defendant to exclude the Government's witnesses as to all fact and character matters, but not including expert witnesses, the Court, of course, under Rule 615, grants the motion. So the Court now instructs any witnesses present for the Government who are in the courtroom who do not qualify as expert witnesses, that you will have to be excluded from the courtroom during the course of this trial, and you will be permitted to come and give your testimony when you are called.
If there is, of course, a similar motion on the part of the Government, a similar ruling will, of course, have to be forthcoming.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, on behalf of the Government, though we do not have a written motion, we would this morning move that the same --

THE COURT: (Interposing) Very well; I will extend the ruling to include witnesses for the Defendant, too. So if there are those present in the courtroom who expect to be called as witnesses for the Defendant, you will have to be excluded for purposes of this trial.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, permit Counsel to insure that we have, in fact, complied with the order?

THE COURT: All right.

(Pause.)

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, let me just state for the record that Defendant does not object to Special Agent Murray remaining in the courtroom. He may or may not be a witness for the Government, but we have agreed that he will stay.

THE COURT: Well, if he is the agent in charge, of course I will let him stay under one of the exceptions to the rule. All right; will there be further cross-examination of the witness Ivory?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well; let him come back.

(Whereupon, WILLIAM F. IVORY, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 9:35 a.m. (resumed)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, just as a preliminary matter, may I ask, since you were here in court last night -- between that time and this morning -- have you spoken to anyone connected with the Government or the prosecution in this case?
A Yes, sir; I have.
Q May I ask who you spoke to?
A Mr. Shaw and Mr. Grebner.
Q Now, Mr. Shaw is the other CID agent who worked with you, at least in the collection of the evidence in this case; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Grebner -- that would be Franz Joseph Grebner?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was the Chief of the CID detachment?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you talk with them both here in Raleigh last night?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q Did you talk to them about the fact that you were testifying as a witness in this case?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q Did you tell them you were under cross-examination?
A Yes; we were discussing the news articles and the TV coverage, is what we were discussing.
Q You mean, news articles and television coverage about your testimony yesterday? Were you talking to them about news articles and television commentaries, say, about your testimony yesterday?
A Yes, sir.
Q What else were you talking about in regard to this case? I am not interested in personal conversation.
A We discussed just generally what has transpired here.
Q What has transpired here in the courtroom?
A Yes, sir.
Q They, of course, have not been in this courtroom since testimony began last Thursday, have they?
A That is correct.
Q You have, prior to testifying, however, been in this courtroom?
A I am sorry; I did not understand.
Q Were you not in the courtroom yourself before you went on the stand last week?
A During the jury selection; yes, sir.
Q Yes; you were here during jury selection. You were here on Friday morning sometime before you actually testified in the court?
A No, sir; I was not.
Q Did you discuss whether those newspaper reports or television reports about your testimony were accurate or not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you indicate to Mr. Shaw and Mr. Grebner what you thought was correctly stated about your testimony?
A No, sir; I think what I said is to the effect that I am glad that finally some accurate reports are coming out in the press.
Q In other words, you indicated that you thought that at least one or more of those versions was accurate about the case; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were accurate about your testimony; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have any other conversations with them about the case last night?
A No, sir.
Q Did you find anything in any of those reports that you thought didn't accurately reflect either your testimony of your opinions about this case?
A No, sir.
Q In other words, you generally discussed that whatever they carried, that is what you thought was correct?
A That is correct.
Q So that they now have an idea of some of your testimony, if they could read it in the newspaper; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And they know that it is correct because you told them it is correct; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, are you not aware that His Honor Judge Dupree has instructed the witnesses in this case not to talk with other persons about what their testimony is? Are you aware of that?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: No, sir.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN that objection. It assumes I have made such order, and I don't believe I have.

MR. SEGAL: I believe that is Your Honor's standing instructions to the witnesses, that they are not to discuss the testimony.

THE COURT: With lawyers.

MR. SEGAL: I am sorry, Judge; with lawyers.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You were under the impression it was all right for you to talk to Mr. Grebner and Mr. Shaw about your testimony, then?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, let's talk about your testimony. I would like, just for a minute, to go back to the trip you made from the CID headquarters to the MacDonald house back on February 17th. While you were driving or riding in the vehicle, did you have your radio turned on to the band over which the military police patrol units were broadcasting?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q Did you hear anything of significance relating to the MacDonald case during that trip?
A Not that I recall; no, sir.
Q All right now, let's go back to the MacDonald house. You've arrived there, you went up to house; tell us how you went -- gained access to that house?
A I parked my car somewhere in the vicinity of the parking slots in front of 538 or 540 Castle Drive, proceeded from my car along the sidewalk, and into the front door of the house.
Q And you got up to the front porch, you told us; you saw several MPs and some medics around, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you went into the house?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was the condition of the door, open or shut?
A It was open as I recall.
Q Now, there is both a screen door and a solid door there, isn't there?
A Yes.
Q Were they both open, both shut?
A As there was an MP standing in the doorway, I assume they were both open.
Q All right, and then you went into the house, and what is the first thing that you saw when you stepped into the house?
A The duty officer, Lieutenant Paulk, and a uniformed military policeman standing next to him or close to him.
Q And who was the military policeman next to him?
A Sir, I do not recall.
Q Would that be Sergeant Tevere?
A Could very -- no, no, no. I don't recall who it was, but it wasn't Tevere.
Q Did you know Sergeant Tevere in 1970, at that time in February?
A I made it a point to know all or at least most of the uniformed patrolmen that worked in Fort Bragg.
Q You made it a point of knowing most of the MPs who were -- patrolled Fort Bragg, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, now I ask you, did you know Sergeant Tevere?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know who it was, then, who was standing near or with Lieutenant Paulk when you came in?
A No, I do not recall.
Q Did you ever learn who that military policeman was?
A I'm sure I knew at the time.
Q Well, this was your first entry into the crime scene, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whoever was there at the crime scene certainly possessed information that you didn't have at that point, is that right?
A That's correct.
Q Because they were there before you arrived and would have known what would have taken place before you got there?
A Exactly.
Q That is fairly obvious, right?
A That's obvious.
Q It would be part of good, basic investigative procedure then, wouldn't it, to get a list of each and every person who had either been there at the crime scene or was there at the crime scene when you arrived?
A That's correct.
Q Now, where was that list that you made?
A I did not make it. I had Lieutenant Paulk -- was instructed to make one, and he furnished it to the CID office.
Q Well, let's go to what you just said. Who instructed Lieutenant Paulk to make a list of the MPs that were there?
A Let me say, I brought it up either to him or to Major Parsons later on that morning.
Q Well, you were the first investigator on the crime scene, right?
A That's correct.
Q In fact, you were the lead investigator eventually in this case?
A That's correct.
Q So this was your investigation?
A That's correct.
Q And you agree that it is a basic principle of investigation that when you arrive at a crime scene and with others there before you, that you should make that list?
A Or have a list made.
Q Right, now, did you yourself instruct Lieutenant Paulk to make a list?
A I don't know if I instructed Lieutenant Paulk, or if I talked to him or to Major Parsons, or both, in bringing up the idea of putting a list together of the MPs who were there.
Q Well, you tell me, what was the importance to you of having a list of MPs, medical personnel, and other persons who were present in the house before you got there? What was the importance to you?
A For a subsequent interview of these people to extract all the information that they had.
Q And what kind of information would you want from those people?
A Information as to what they saw, what they did.
Q What they saw inside the crime scene?
A Inside the crime scene, outside of the crime scene.
Q What they did inside and outside of the crime scene?
A Yes.
Q What they did as far as touching or not touching physical evidence there?
A Yes.
Q What they did or did not do to protect the crime scene?
A Exactly.
Q That's a fairly important piece of work and a fairly important piece of information, isn't it?
A I would say so, yes, sir.
Q And you believe that you delegated that work to Lieutenant Paulk?
A I believe I did -- to Lieutenant Paulk or, I say, Major Parsons, or some other official there. It was discussed with Paulk, Parsons, or both together.
Q Now, when you say you discussed it, what exactly do you mean when you say you discussed it?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we OBJECT to this. I think the witness has answered this line of questioning.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q What do you mean when you say you discussed it with Major Parsons and Lieutenant Paulk?
A That a list had to be prepared of those individuals who had been in the house.
Q And you weren't telling Major Parsons, the deputy provost marshal of all of Fort Bragg, that he should prepare the list, were you?
A Why not?
Q You tell me, were you telling Major Parsons to do that?
A I told either him or Lieutenant Paulk or both together that a list had to be put together.
Q Is it your view that that was the appropriate thing to do, for you as the chief investigator, or lead investigator, to delegate that to the deputy provost marshal of the post?
A Yes.
Q How about Lieutenant Paulk; what was his qualification, if any, to assist in a criminal investigation of this magnitude?
A He was a commissioned officer in the United States Army Military Police Corps, he was the duty officer representing the provost marshal and the post commander for police affairs that night.
Q And that, of course, in your mind made him automatically qualified to assist in a homicide investigation of this magnitude?
A Yes, I do.
Q You thought being dedicated made him qualified, right?
A Yes. He was not going to investigate the crime but take care of those parts of the investigation -- or taking care of those parts of the crime scene -- that are designated for military police to take care of.
Q Had you known Lieutenant Paulk prior to this evening?
A Yes, yes, I had seen him. Yes.
Q You had seen him?
A I had seen him in the military police station and talked to him, yes. Personally, I did not know him.
Q Was he a career officer?
A I have no idea.
Q Did you personally have any knowledge whether he was a competent officer or not?
A I had no information that he was not.
Q And you had no information to the contrary?
A That's true.
Q He was, in effect, as far as competence, a cipher to you?
A No, no, I wouldn't say that, no.
Q You presumed he was competent?
A I presumed he was competent.
Q That was based upon your longest period dealing with first lieutenants?
A Yes.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, you did have your little notebook with you, though, when you came into the house and saw Lieutenant Paulk, and another MP was there?
A Yes.
Q And, of course, you made no notations in that notebook about who the MPs were?
A No, I did not.
Q Did you ever at any time thereafter compile a list of military policemen who were in the house at or before the time you arrived?
A Yes, I did.
Q When did you do that?
A In the days or weeks following.
Q And did you write down those names as a result of your investigation?
A I'm sure I did. Either wrote it down or saw where they had been written down.
Q I'm sorry, you either wrote it down or what?
A Or saw where they had been written down.
Q Well, if -- I don't understand your testimony, then. You were making a list at some time after February 17; how is it that someone wrote something on your list that you didn't know about?
A The list was prepared by either Lieutenant Paulk or Major Parsons.
Q Didn't you, in fact, compile a list?
A I did not compile a list. I worked with a list of people.
Q You're sure you didn't compile a list?
A No, I did not compile a list.
Q You're sure you did not compile a list?
A In my mind, I did not compile a list.
Q Do you recall the interview by counsel for Dr. MacDonald on Sunday, July 5th, 1970, at Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A Yes, I believe I do.
Q You do?
A Yes.
Q Now, I want to read to you from page 4 of the transcript of that formal interview. By the way, you were placed under oath first before you made the statement, weren't you?
A Yes, yes, I was.
Q I want to read the following question and following answer to you and ask whether you recall being asked this question and giving the answer that I have here. That's line 13 of page 4.
"Question: All right now, at that time did you know, or did you know, or do you know now how many were in that house, a total figure, before you got there or by the time -- how many MPs or medics?"
And do you recall giving the following answer:
"Since that time I have compiled a list." Does that sound familiar to you, that question and answer?
A I don't recall specifically that question and answer, but if it is in that transcript I am sure that's how it occurred.
Q You would have no reason to disagree with the stenographer?
A That is correct.
Q Now that I have read this to you, does that in any way jog your memory as to whether or not you compiled the list of the MPs, medics, and any other persons who had been in the house before you arrived there or were there when you arrived there?
A I think perhaps the usage of the word, "compile," is perhaps misleading or was perhaps misused by me at the time. I did not compile the list. I caused the list to be compiled.
Q You say it may have been misleading, is that right?
A Yes.
Q The word "compile." That wasn't a word being given to you by one of Dr. MacDonald's lawyers, was it?
A No. Then I misused the word myself, but not with the intention of misleading you, sir.
Q But the effect of it as you tell us now today, would be to have misled me because you said you compiled.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the objection to that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, how many MPs, in fact, were in the house or had been in the house before you -- and when I say MPs, let me say also, how many medics and MPs?
A Medics and MPs?
Q Right.
A Medics that I know of that I saw the two in there. Military policemen -- again, I'm reaching back these years -- six, eight perhaps. It would be in the doorway, in the living room, by Lieutenant Paulk, the one that came down with the medical litter. The sergeant, who I believe was Sergeant Tevere, at the back door of the house in the utility room door. Six or eight.
Q Six or eight MPs?
A That I recall right now.
Q And how many medics?
A I saw two in the house, two outside.
Q I am asking you for more than that. I am saying, did you ever ascertain how many MPs and medics had been in the house, either before you or were there when you were there. In other words, I would like to know whether you have investigated and ascertained the total number of military personnel who have been in there before you arrived.
A I did not conduct the interviews of the military policemen who were at the scene. That was part of the investigation that was conducted by other agents in the office that day, and the days following. They compiled, also, a list of who was where, who did what, and extracted the information from those military policemen.
Q They compiled the list; is that right?
A Let us say they worked from the list that was given to them by the Military Police desk, or the Military Police Operations Center.
Q If I understand your testimony today, you did not compile a list yourself?
A That is correct.
Q They they did not compile any list; is that right?
A No, they worked from the list that was furnished to them by the Military Police.
Q Which military policeman supplied the names to you or other CID investigators of who were the MPs at the MacDonald house before you arrived and when you arrived?
A The list that was compiled upon request to Lieutenant Paulk and Major Parsons?
Q Yes?
A That was furnished to the CID Office and they worked from that to interview those military policemen.
Q Okay, who did it?
A I don't know; I was not there.
Q Let's look at the list. May we see that list today and let's have the names of the MPs and medics who were in the house before you had got there or who were there when you got there?
A I have no personal list on my person right now.
Q I'm not asking for a personal list. I am asking for a list that you acquired as the lead investigator in this case during the time you were handling this matter.
A Mr. Segal, I did not obtain the list. The list was furnished to the CID Office at Fort Bragg while I was busy processing the crime scene.
Q Didn't you get a copy of that so that you could be testifying in court and give us all the accurate information about that?
A No, sir; I don't know where that list could be found today.
Q Would it be in the CID file?
A I'm sure.
Q The CID file has not been destroyed in this case, has it?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The CID file has not been destroyed in this case, has it?
A No, it has not.
Q All right, how long will it take you to get access to that so we can find out the accurate list of the number of people who were in the house before you got there?
A Sir, I don't know that I could find it.
Q All right, if we have time before this case is done, may I now request you formally to make a search for that list; will you do that?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the objection, and I call counsel's attention to Rule 403. It appears to the Court that interrogation with reference to the number of people who were there or who made a list of their names and so forth has been adequately explored in this case. I would suggest that you just go to something else.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, Mr. Ivory, who else was in the living room, besides yourself, Lieutenant Paulk, and this unidentified MP?
A Mr. Rossi, from the MPI, entered the house sometime after I did.
Q Within a minute or two after you did?
A Within seconds of my entry.
Q All right, who else?
A Then I saw the military policeman, and the medical personnel carrying that litter from the hallway down into the living room.
Q This was all within the first few seconds of your entry into the house?
A Yes.
Q Forgive me, but let me make sure I understand that it was you, Mr. Hagan Rossi, Lieutenant Paulk, and an unidentified MP near the front door; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Are there any other MPs or medical personnel in the living room at that juncture?
A No, sir.
Q Then what is the next time you see some new people or new faces? Is that when the litter comes down the hall?
A Yes, sir; that is correct.
Q All right, how many people did you see at that time?
A Three.
Q Do you know who those three persons were?
A By name? No.
Q Do you have some other way of recognizing who they are?
A There were two who were obviously medical personnel and one was obviously a uniformed military policeman.
Q These three persons were handling a hospital stretcher on wheels, weren't they?
A That is correct.
Q One was at the head of the stretcher?
A That is correct.
Q One was at the foot of the stretcher?
A That is correct.
Q And one was along the side of the stretcher?
A That is correct.
Q There was also a body on the stretcher at that time?
A That is correct.
Q And those people came down the hall. When was the first point that you were able to see these people?
A They were in the hall as I was talking to Lieutenant Paulk. I looked up and saw them coming down the hallway.
Q How far down the hallway were they when you first saw them? Were they near the bathroom door almost to the entrance into the living room, or some other place?
A I don't recall. Judging by the time it took them to get down to the living room, they were probably between or right around that bathroom area, or between the bathroom, hallway, and the living room.
Q May I ask, Mr. Ivory, if you would be good enough to come down here and look at the model, and with the Government's permission, if I may use this exhibit, please? I would ask you to place these four model wooden figures that the Government has provided with the model in the position that you, well, let's put yourself first, in place here in the house where you were standing when you first saw the stretcher?
A At a point about here.
Q Now would you look at the furniture that is in the model at this moment here. Is that roughly in the correct position?
A Roughly in front of the TV set.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk is fairly short, isn't he?
A Short, yes.
Q All right, let's use a short model here.
Why don't you place him in some position where he was? Standing immediately to your left, is that correct?
A Right.
Q Now there was the unidentified MP. Was he short or tall?
A I don't know.
Q All right?
A Let's describe them as average height.
Q We don't have much choice here. Let me give you this one. You put him where?
A By the desk.
Q You put it in front of the desk here on the west wall of the MacDonald living room?
A Correct.
Q And finally, where was Mr. Hagan Rossi? Let's use this figure I'm handing you now.
A I cannot say where he was standing at that point.
Q He was someplace in the room. Right?
A He was no further than that (indicating).
Q Let's lower the front of the model so we can share this with everybody.
A He was no further than that (indicating).
Q You are approximately somewhere -- ?
A Right inside the doorway.
Q All right. You have yourself now facing them, I gather, more or less down the hallway leading to the master bedroom. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Okay. Would you be good enough to return to the stand? Now, would you describe for us which way was the man facing who was at the foot of this rolling hospital bed you call a gurney, I think?
A Yes, sir. That is a good enough term.
Q Does that sound right to you?
A That is a good enough name, yes. I've heard it called that, yes.
Q Which way was the man facing who was at the foot of the gurney?
A I don't recall. At the time that I first caught that coming down the hallway, I was more concentrating probably more on what Lieutenant Paulk was telling me at the time.
Q Would it be fair to say that you saw it peripherally out of the side of your eye?
A That is correct.
Q That did not strike you as a particularly significant event at that time?
A No, I wouldn't say that. No.
Q The more significant event was that you were learning for the first time of the facts of this crime?
A That's correct.
Q Was Lieutenant Paulk talking to you at that time?
A Yes, he was.
Q And he was briefing you about the case?
A That's correct, sir.
Q The medics were then coming down into the living room with that gurney?
A That is correct.
Q They were moving the gurney across the living room. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Out the door?
A That's correct.
Q During that time Lieutenant Paulk was briefing you on the case?
A That's correct.
Q There was nothing particularly significant to you at that point?
A Well, of course, there was.
Q Beg your pardon?
A Of course, it was significant.
Q Tell us what you noted about the men doing there that was significant to you.
A I noted that as they came through the end of the hallway is when I first got a good look at what they were doing. I knew that obviously they were bringing a stretcher down there. The first clear look I got of them is when they arrived at the end of the hallway. The military policemen and the medic came down in front of the stretcher, stepping over some clothes that were on the stairway, as I remember.
And they took the bottom part of the stretcher -- that was the foot of the stretcher, I guess you would say, and pulled that down across the stairs and laid it down on the floor, and then they wheeled it from the house.
At that time Lieutenant Paulk was telling me, "This is the man of the house. He was one of the people who reportedly was" -- he said to me words to the effect that this was the man of the house. He made the report that some people had come in and had attacked him and his family.
Q And how much could you see of the man that was on the stretcher?
A He was covered to the neck in a sheet or a blanket.
Q Was there anything under his head? Was there a pillow?
A As I recall, there was.
Q Well, what was visible to you on the stretcher was the head and maybe the neck of a male?
A That is correct.
Q And did that man look into your eyes and say anything at that time?
A No, he did not.
Q What was the condition of his eyes?
A His eyes were closed at that time.
Q He appeared unconscious to you. Didn't he?
A Yes.
Q Now, again, I would like to have your assistance if I may and have you show us how these three persons participated in moving the gurney across the room, and I have here D-10 for identification which is a model of the gurney and I have three small figures which have been marked for identification D-7 and D-9 -- and one unidentified one.
Would you be good enough to come down here? Show me, please, and I will assist in any way I can, how these three men --
A (Interposing) Should I take this off?
Q Yes, sir. That is a good idea. Now, you take one of the figures and take the other one, please, and if you would like, I will hold the third figure if you will tell me where to place it for you.
A What do you want me to do?
Q Show us how they took the gurney from the head of the hallway where the steps are across the living room.
A As I recall, a medic and a military policeman were at the foot of the gurney.
Q All right. Two of the figures were here (indicating)?
A Yes.
Q All right. Let me hold them. Are they now in the position you recall them?
A Well, they were coming down the stairs because the clothing was laying here (indicating). In fact, I believe the MP was the first to step around them.
Q Excuse me. I think you have to keep your voice up.
A The military policeman, I recall distinctly, had to step over the clothing that was laying on that stairway while the gurney was either toward the center or towards --
Q (Interposing) One of the walls?
A The north side of the hallway.
Q Excuse me for just a second. You say the gurney was toward the north side of the hallway? Was that because the third man was moving along the south wall assisting in bringing this gurney down the hall?
A I tell you I did not really observe what was going on while they were coming down the hallway.
Q All right. Then they lifted the gurney down onto the floor. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Can we do that please? I have now placed the gurney on the floor of the living room. Is this approximately where --
A (Interposing) It is fair to say it was about there.
Q All right. Now, I would like, if we could, to borrow a grease pencil. With the Government's permission, this is a washable ink -- I just want to mark here and then we will photograph later on. I would appreciate it if you would simply, as a body might be outlined, just to mark where the outline of where this gurney was put to rest there.
A Realizing now I'm working off a memory that is nine years old and that I am saying this is approximately where that gurney rested.
Q Would you mark the head of this? (Witness complies.)
Q All right. With the gurney in this position, would you show us now as best you can recall how the gurney was moved across the living room and out the door with Dr. MacDonald's body on it?
A Certainly. Straight through here.
Q All right. I see you have moved two pieces of furniture to do that. Are you now telling us that the place you put this high back armchair and a little footstool accurately represents where those furniture items were?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Thank you. Why don't you return to the stand? Now, please tell us what information did Lieutenant Paulk give you when you were standing at or near the entrance to the MacDonald house?
A He advised me that they had received a call, that there had been a disturbance or an assault in the house, and that when they arrived, Dr. MacDonald had advised him or one of the military policemen that he and his family had been attacked by four people, and it was about this time that the gurney was taken down into the living room and I don't know if he used the name "MacDonald." I don't know. But he advised that that was the man of the house or the husband and that he was being taken to the hospital. He had been injured and he was being taken to the hospital.
Q Did he tell you anything else?
A That is all that was told to me at that time.
Q Did the other MP who was standing there tell you anything else that had been learned from the only living occupant of that house at that time, Dr. MacDonald?
A No, sir: he had not.
Q After you received that information, did you write it down in your notebook?
A No, sir.
Q Did you make a memorandum of what was told to you at that point?
A Not at that particular moment; no.
Q When did you write down what Lieutenant Paulk told you?
A A little bit later that morning, when there was a little bit of breathing room.
Q Relying upon your memory of what he told you, you made a memorandum; is that right?
A Not a memorandum; I made notes of what was discussed.
Q Do you have those notes?
A No, sir; I do not.
Q What happened to them?
A I have no idea where they may be right now.
Q Where do you usually keep case notes of a triple homicide investigation?
A Well, as with those, I had them transcribed from the handwritten method into -- they were typewritten onto Agent Activity Summary Sheets.
Q When did you prepare such an activity sheet?
A I furnished the notes to some of the administrative personnel in the office, and they had them typed.
Q Did you read them and sign them thereafter?
A No, sir; they were not signed.
Q I can't hear you.
A They are not in a signed form. It is just a summary, as I say, of the investigative activity for a certain period.
Q They merely typed them verbatim exactly as you wrote them down?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right; did you get any other information from anyone in the living room before you left it that first time you came into the house?
A No, sir; I don't believe so.
Q Did you make any observations of note at that time?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Did you make any observations -- you know, looking in a clockwise direction around the room, as a good investigator does -- did you make any observations?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q What were the observations you made at that time -- your first time in the living room we are talking about?
A I observed generally the placement of furniture, the condition of the furniture -- the area around the couch and coffee table appeared to be disturbed -- and again, general placement of furniture.
Q You didn't know, of course, from what Lieutenant Paulk had told you, that anything had actually happened in the living room, though?
A No, sir.
Q So far as you knew from what you could see, there were some crimes that had taken place back in the bedroom area of the house?
A That is correct. Well, no; let me correct that answer. No; something obviously did happen in the living room.
Q Yes?
A Because the coffee table was overturned -- not overturned, but turned up on its side.
Q Yes; but you don't know whether that was related -- at that point, you didn't know whether it was related to the crime or not?
A I assumed it was.
Q Why did you make that assumption?
A Because most households I go into don't have coffee tables that are turned up on their sides.
Q From which you concluded therefore something had happened in this household?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see anything else of interest at that point in the living room?
A In the living room? Other than that which I have just described, not that I recall.
Q I gather that then Lieutenant Paulk walked you through the remainder of the house?
A That is correct.
Q Did he give you any other information that he had received or he had heard about or learned about this case during your walk-through down the hallway, first of all?
A Yes; he advised that both the husband and the woman whose body was laying in the master bedroom had been found in the master bedroom.
Q What else did he tell you in the hallway, if anything?
A That was generally what was discussed going down the hallway, as he was taking me down to the master bedroom.
Q I know you say "generally," but do you remember anything else being imparted to you at that point?
A No, sir.
Q And is the master bedroom the first one you went to?
A Yes; it is.
Q When you went there, were the lights on in the master bedroom?
A Yes; they were.
Q Did you ever ascertain who turned the lights on?
A No; I did not.
Q So you don't know whether the lights had been turned on by a family member; is that right?
A I believe the military policemen advised me, either then or later, that they had turned the lights -- or the lights had been on when they had come in, as I recall.
Q When they had come in?
A I believe.
Q Which military policeman told you that?
A I do not recall.
Q Are you sure they said that?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Do you have any notes to indicate whether or not you got that information from a military policeman?
A Sir, that would be reflected on any witness statements that were taken from them.
Q That is what they said. I am asking you if you have any notes indicating that you had a source of that information?
A No, sir.
Q All right; now, you went into that room; as I gather from your testimony on Friday, you looked around -- what, in a clockwise fashion around the room; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Standing in the doorway of the master bedroom you looked left, going around to the right, covering the whole room?
A That is correct.
Q That took less than a minute, though?
A I would say yes; a minute or so.
Q What significant observations -- or at least significant to you -- did you make at that time?
A Significant observations in the master bedroom were that there was a body laying on the floor.
Q Yes, sir?
A Again, the general placement of the furniture.
Q You noted there was a bed on one side and a bureau someplace else; is that right?
A Yes; that some of the furniture had blood stains on it. The walls had some blood stains on it; that the master bed did not have any bedding or top bedding on it, except for a bottom sheet; and that there was a bundle of bedding inside the door of the bedroom.
Q Did you take note of anything else about the the body of the woman on the floor at that time? This is your first visit to the room?
A Yes; I did walk closer to the body and looked at it; yes.
Q And what did you take note of at that time?
A Of the items that were laying on top of the body -- the pajama shirt; and I noticed a white object which I later found to be the Hilton bathmat on the body. I did see that one eye was open. Other than that, on that first visit, I don't know.
Q There is nothing else that you recall that you observed in that first visit to the room; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q It is fair to say, in view of your testimony, you did not notice at that time what the condition of the telephone in the bedroom was?
A At that time, no, sir; I did not.
Q Now, did Lieutenant Paulk give you any information while you were in the master bedroom with him?
A Yes, sir; he did.
Q What did he tell you then?
A After I had observed that room, he then told me -- or, in some words -- that there were other members of the family that were also dead.
Q And at that point, you and he immediately proceeded to one of the other bedrooms?
A That is correct.
Q Which one did you go to?
A To the bedroom on the south side, Kimberly's bedroom.
Q Now, I would like for you to show us, please, before we leave the master bedroom, where you and Lieutenant Paulk were on this model; and if I can impose upon you again to come down here and ask you to use again two of these figures. Show us, please, where you and Lieutenant Paulk were when you made these various observations you just described? You may correct the room in any way, if you think it is not as you first saw it.
A Must I use these, or can I use this pointer?
Q I would prefer if you used those figures, please.
A This is a little bit out of place.
Q All right; why don't you move --
A (Interposing) It is glued down.
Q Now, let me indicate for the record that you have moved the round, white disc which has been described here as "pile of bedding." You have moved that in a slightly southerly position to get it out of the way of the doorway; is that right?
A Correct.
Q Because that is how you recall it when you went into the room?
A Correct.
Q Is there anything else in the room that you want to rearrange or correct so that it accurately reflects the arrangement of the room when you first came into it?
A I would say that accurately reflects -- that accurately reflects, as I recall, the placement of furniture and the body in the room.
Q All right; now, would you please use those two figures I gave you and show us where you and Lieutenant Paulk were standing?
A I would say roughly in a position like this, both of us generally in the doorway at the initial stage.
Q Lieutenant Paulk was standing in the doorway; you were slightly inside the room?
A Yes; then I walked closer to the body.
Q Crossing in front of him, past the clothing to the foot of the body -- is that right?
A Yes.
Q Anything else on the floor near there that you were trying to be careful about?
A Yes, the throw rug which was right here.
Q The blue throw rug?
A Yes.
Q All right. You stepped around that?
A Yes.
Q Or did you step over it?
A Around it, over it -- I did not touch it.
Q All right, thank you very much. There's a tight squeeze with two figures in there, isn't it?
A Not really.
Q May I ask why you didn't want to use the figures or preferred the pointer? Was it difficult to get the figures in the room?
A No, I just thought perhaps I could illustrate it easier by using the pointer.
Q All right. Now, after Lieutenant Paulk told you about other persons, where did you go?
A We went to the south bedroom or the bedroom of Kimberly MacDonald.
Q At that point you flipped on the light using your pen?
A That is correct.
Q You made some observations in that room?
A That is correct.
Q You walked over near that bed?
A Yes, I did.
Q And about how close did you get to it?
A To the corner of the foot of the bed, on the south corner of the foot of the bed.
Q And what significant observations did you make in that room at that time?
A There was a body of a female child in the bed; the bedding was up around the body and tucked in underneath the back of the body which was laying on her left side.
Q Was there anything else of significance that you observed at that time?
A I noticed blood splatters on the wall, a large amount of blood in the bed itself, and then I departed --
Q (Interposing) I'm sorry, and then what?
A -- and then I left that room.
Q Well, you did something before you left the room, didn't you?
A Beg your pardon?
Q You did something else before you left the room, though?
A I made those observations.
Q Right, and after you made the observations, you did one last thing, didn't you?
A Perhaps you can refresh my memory.
Q You turned the lights out?
A Correct.
Q Again using your pen?
A Correct.
Q Can you tell me why you bothered to turn the lights out?
A At that point, I don't know. I really don't know.
Q The scene was too unpleasant to look at, wasn't it?
A It was not pleasant -- it was not pleasant.
Q So is that why you turned the lights out?
A No, I don't think that is it. I don't know why I turned them off. I just did.
Q All right. And then where did you go?
A To the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald.
Q Just about across the hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q And before we leave that, did Lieutenant Paulk give you any information at all while you were at that bedroom you just described?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he tell you at that room or in that room?
A That this body had also been found and there was another body across the hallway. And at that point I asked him had any medical personnel looked at them and he said yes, the medics had looked at them.
Q The medics had looked at them?
A Yes.
Q Are you sure that is what he said?
A Yes.
Q Did he tell you when the medics had looked at the body in that bedroom?
A Perhaps when they were going back to pick up Mr. MacDonald --
Q (Interposing) Can't hear you.
A -- I said, perhaps when they were going back to pick up Mr. MacDonald.
Q So you now had information that this body had been examined -- you had reason to believe -- by Army medics? Is that right?
A Examined or looked at, yes.
Q Surely. Did that give rise to any concern in your mind about what might or might not have happened to the scene in that room?
A No, sir.
Q Did you subsequently learn who the Army medics were that Lieutenant Paulk was referring to?
A I did not, as that phase of the investigation was handled by other persons.
Q Now who investigated that?
A I don't know, sir -- one of the investigators back at the office.
Q Wasn't it important at that point to find out and to perhaps discount the possibility that the Army medics, in checking on the body in that room, had in any way touched anything?
A Yes, sir.
Q It was important?
A It was important.
Q You got their names from Lieutenant Paulk at that point, right?
A No, I did not get their names. I just asked Lieutenant Paulk had they disturbed anything -- had they moved the bodies -- and he said no.
Q All right. Did Lieutenant Paulk tell you that he had been in the room with the medics?
A I believe so, yes, sir. He said he or one of the military policemen. I believe he said he was there.
Q Let's go back a minute. I want you to search your memory, please, and tell us as accurately as you recall whether Lieutenant Paulk said to you that he was in the room or at the doorway to the room when medics went in to check on the body in that room.
A I don't recall, sir, if he said he was there or if another MP was there.
Q So you have no way of telling us whether or not he personally had knowledge of whether anyone checked that room at all? Right?
A Yes, sir. I did.
Q You might have just been assuming that?
A No, sir. He told me that they had.
Q They had. But you don't know whether he was present when they had done that?
A I assumed he was from the way he talked.
Q In typical military fashion, he may have said to them, "Go check out the body," and they said, "Yes, sir"?

MR. ANDERSON: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: Was there an objection?

MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: I will OVERRULE that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You made an assumption; is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What basis did you have to believe that in fact they had done what Lieutenant Paulk said he told them to do?
A He being a sworn officer, I took his word for it.
Q I understand that, but how would he possibly know whether they, being enlisted men, had done what he told them to do?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the objection to that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q What did you do to check out those facts personally?
A Such as? I don't know what you mean?
Q The facts about what the medics did: did you ever personally check out those facts?
A You mean interview the medics?
Q Yes.
A No, I did not.
Q All right, let's go back to the last of the three bedrooms. Now, in that room tell us what significant observations you made?
A After putting the light on, I observed the placement of the furniture, the blood stains on the floor, the bloody footprint, the position of the body as it lay in the bed. Generally, those are the observations I made.
Q And all of the observations were quite brief at this point, weren't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would it be fair to say you were just simply orienting yourself to the crime scene and where the bodies were?
A Exactly.
Q Getting a general sense of what was going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q What, if anything, did Lieutenant Paulk tell you in that third and last bedroom?
A Nothing of significance at that point.
Q How close did you get to that bed?
A I walked over to the throw rug or that carpet in the middle of the floor, and looked at the body.
Q How far away were you from the bed when you reached that position?
A Oh, two feet.
Q Where was Lieutenant Paulk?
A In the doorway.
Q Behind you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he tell you anything else?
A Not that I recall at that point.
Q Did he mention whether any medics or military policemen had checked the body in that room?
A Sir, when I asked him in the other room, I took in the whole house -- all three bodies. I asked if they had been checked -- if the bodies had been checked.
Q Oh, you asked Lieutenant Paulk while you were standing in which bedroom this question?
A By Kimberly's bedroom.
Q At that time, you said, "Have these bodies been checked," is that right?
A Correct.
Q Lieutenant Paulk said, "Yes, the medics have done that"?
A Correct.
Q To the best of your recollection, that is what he told you?
A Correct.
Q So, at that point, you then made a further assumption that the body of Kristen had also been checked by a medic?
A Correct.
Q When you say "checked," you mean you assume someone came in and made a satisfactory determination to the best they could with their knowledge that this person was not alive?
A Correct.
Q That would not mean someone coming to the doorway, taking a peek in a darkened room and saying, "Yes, she is dead"? That is not what you had in mind, was it?
A Correct.
Q When you say "correct," you did not have that in mind?
A I did not have that in mind; no, sir.
Q It is fair to say that you assumed -- that someone had done the decent human thing and found out as best they could by getting near to that body, what the condition of the body was?
A Correct.
Q Was it important to you to find out whether they had touched the body?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it important for you to find out whether they had touched the sheets or the bedclothes in any way?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you interview the medics to find that out?
A I did not interview the medics to find that out. That is an aspect of the investigation that was covered by other personnel.
Q And you don't know who the other personnel were who did that?
A No, sir; it could have been one of a dozen persons.
Q All right, finally after you finished that, where did you and Lieutenant Paulk go?
A Back to the living room and then to the quarters of the CWO Kalin, Warrant Officer Kalin.
Q That's the next-door neighbor?
A Correct, yes.
Q When you came into the living room, who was there?
A Rossi was there -- that's the military police investigator, Mr. Rossi; and I believe the same people who were there when I left with Lieutenant Paulk to go up the hallway.
Q Well, all I can remember is Lieutenant -- well, Mr. Rossi was there when you left and this unidentified MP?
A Correct.
Q Are you telling us those are the only two persons you saw in the room when you came back?
A That's right. I think I also said that there were some military policemen standing in the open doorway.
Q Were they either inside the house or outside the house?
A They were in the doorway.
Q Had they stepped on to the floor of the living room?
A Sir, as I recall, they were standing in the doorway.
Q Well, perhaps you could get the pointer and come down and show us what you mean. I don't understand that. Pardon me, let me remove this.
A This is the living room. It doesn't open, but let us call this the doorway, and they were standing in the doorway.
Q All right, based upon the area that you are pointing to, is it fair to say that is not in the living room?
A I would say this door opens inward, the screen door opens outwards, and they were standing between the two open doors. There may have been a foot -- they may have been partially standing in this part of the living room portion.
Q All right, thank you, Mr. Ivory. Now, putting aside the MPs who may have been standing foot in or foot out of the doorway, was there anybody else besides Mr. Hagan Rossi and the unidentified MP in the living room?
A Not that I recall, sir, no.
Q Could you give me any idea of how tall or how short that unidentified MP was?
A No, sir, I'd say probably average.
Q Was he taller or shorter than Hagan Rossi?
A I don't recall, sir.
Q He wasn't a real tall man, though, was he?
A I don't recall, sir. I think if he was extremely tall perhaps it would stand out, but really I don't recall.
Q Excuse me?
A I don't recall.
Q 6' 2" or 6' 3" would have stood out, wouldn't it?
A Sir, I don't recall.
Q Now, you have said that you came back into the living room. Did you stay there for any length of time before you went to Mr. Kalin's house?
A No, sir.
Q Went straight out the front door?
A Yes, sir.
Q The MPs parted for you as you came up there? You went on to the adjoining porch and you knocked on the door or rang the bell, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, were the Kalins awake at that point?
A Yes, sir, they were.
Q Was their door open or closed?
A I believe it was closed.
Q And who answered the door?
A I don't recall, sir. I just don't recall. But when I entered the house, both Mr. and Mrs. Kalin were on the ground floor.
Q Were they in night clothes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you asked one of them to come in and to identify the bodies, is that right?
A No, sir, not at that point.
Q I'm sorry, what did you ask them for at that point?
A If I could use their phone.
Q And then you made some call at that point?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whom did you call?
A I called Mr. Grebner, the Chief of the CID office.
Q And what, if anything, did you tell him?
A I told him what I had found, what I had been told, and told him that I needed additional investigative assistance at the scene.
Q Well, will you now repeat for me as best you can remember what -- the words you spoke to Mr. Grebner?
A "Mr. Grebner, I'm at the scene of a homicide, and there's three bodies here and I need some additional help out here at the scene," words to that effect.
Q Did you make any other call at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell us about that.
A In talking to Mr. Grebner I'd said that I would make some calls if he would call some additional people; and I told him that I would call Mr. Connolly, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. Black, to cut down on his telephone time.
Q You were dropping your voice.
A I'm sorry, to cut down on his telephone time, that I would call some people from where I was.
Q How long did you spend in the Kalin house?
A Five minutes perhaps.
Q How many calls did you make altogether?
A Four, four.
Q That would be Grebner, Shaw, Connolly, and who might be the fourth person you called?
A Mr. Grebner, Mr. Connolly, Mr. Shaw and Mr. Black.
Q You got them all in?
A Yes, sir.
Q Told them briefly about why you were calling?
A Yes.
Q Asked them to come on down?
A Yes, I did.
Q Then you went back out to the MacDonald house at that point?
A That's correct.
Q When you went outside, who was on the steps?
A The same people who were there when I walked through the first time.
Q You still don't know their names though, right?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Weren't any more people there, were there?
A Not that I recall, no, sir.
Q Were any MPs down by the sidewalk, by the way?
A Yes, sir.
Q Different from when you first arrived?
A Different people?
Q Yes.
A I don't know if they were different people or not, sir.
Q Did any more MP patrols arrive while you were at the house?
A Not that I know of, sir.
Q How many MPs were there out there at that time?
A Three, maybe four, I'm not sure.
Q Did they have their lights on?
A I don't recall.
Q Do you recall seeing any neighbors standing outside at that point?
A Not that I recall.
Q Did you see any lights on in adjoining houses?
A Yes, I did.
Q Across the street?
A Perhaps.
Q All right, you went back into the MacDonald living room at that point?
A That's correct.
Q What did you do then? Who was there?
A Lieutenant Paulk was back with me and --
Q Excuse me, he was back with you?
A Yes.
Q Had he gone into the Kalin house with you?
A I think he did.
Q Well, let's go back to that then. When you went out of the MacDonald house and went to the Kalin's to call for more CID assistance --
A Correct.
Q Is it your recollection that Lieutenant Paulk went along with you?
A My recollection is that he probably did.
Q And the telephone you used at the Kalin house was on the ground floor, wasn't it?
A That's correct.
Q And Mr. Paulk, then, would have been -- Lieutenant Paulk would have been on the ground floor with you?
A That's correct.
Q Is that your recollection?
A That's my recollection.
Q And then after you made the calls you and he walked out on the porch and back to the MacDonald house?
A That's correct.
Q And when the two of you walked back in, whom did you see in the living room?
A The same people who were there when we left.
Q Which would be Mr. Hagan Rossi and the unidentified MP?
A Yes, sir.
Q No one else?
A No, sir, not that I recall.
Q Who was in charge of the crime scene when you and Lieutenant Paulk were out of the house?
A The military policeman on perimeter duty and Mr. Rossi perhaps.
Q Wait a minute, "Mr. Rossi perhaps." You wave your hand at that.
A He was the other investigator -- accompanied me to assist me at the scene. In my absence perhaps he would have been.
Q Perhaps, but you were, in fact, the investigator at that point?
A That's correct.
Q And when you walked out of the crime scene with Lieutenant Paulk, the senior officer of the scene, you're telling us that you didn't give anybody instructions -- say, "Hey, guys, take care of the crime scene while I'm gone," is that, right?
A No, sir.
Q You say, "no, sir" -- you know you did not give that instruction?
A I didn't feel it was necessary, no.
Q Because you assumed that someone would do that, right?
A I assumed the military policemen would do as they had been trained, yes.
Q And, of course, they had the same training in crime scene protection that you had before you became a CID agent, is that right?
A I don't know, sir. I am sure the curriculum at the MP school is changed from time to time.
Q Did you hear Lieutenant Paulk give any instructions to any of the MPs when you and he left to go to the Kalin house?
A No, sir, not that I can recall. That is not to say that he didn't. I do not recall.
Q Who was at the back of the MacDonald house at the time you and Lieutenant Paulk went out the front door to the Kalin's house?
A As I recall, Sergeant Tevere was standing in the doorway -- the utility room doorway.
Q When you came back in, did you bother to go back and see whether Tevere was still standing in that utility room door?
A Yes, I did.
Q Tell us exactly what this chain of events were: after you made the phone call you came back to the house. What did you do at that time?
A I then went back through the scene, taking a little bit longer to observe what was in each room. Then I went back to the Kalin house and asked Mr. Kalin to accompany me back into the house to identify the bodies that were there.
Q Now this is the second time you have walked through the crime scene?
A That is correct.
Q Was there anybody else in that house alive other than Hagan Rossi and the unidentified MP, and in the front room, yourself and Mr. Paulk?
A No, sir; not that I can recall.
Q You walked through the living room, and what did you notice significant that time? Did you make some new observation?
A I looked closer at what I had observed before.
Q Did anything strike you now that you had not noticed or paid attention to the first time?
A No, sir -- well I am sure I just took a closer look at what I had seen the first time.
Q What are the items that you looked at on this second viewing of the living room?
A I would say my attention was drawn to the area around the couch, the upturned coffee table, the entrance to the hallway, and dining room area.
Q Why was your attention drawn to those areas in this second look?
A Because as I observed at my first look, that part of the living room had been disturbed.
Q Did you note any additional significant matters on this second viewing?
A No, sir.
Q How long did you take a look at it the second time?
A A matter of a few minutes, perhaps.
Q Was it longer than the first viewing?
A Yes, it was.
Q But you didn't note anything new at that time that attracted your attention?
A No, sir; no, sir, I didn't.
Q Now the purpose of a second look was to see whether you could, perhaps, pick up some more clues as to what was going on in this house that night?
A Correct.
Q By any conceivable chance, did you notice a flower pot on the floor of the second viewing?
A As I recall, yes, sir.
Q I asked you what you noted of significance. Was that a significant thing you observed then?
A I noted that it was part of the disturbed area. Perhaps it is wrong to call it an item of furniture, but it is an item of, you know, what you would normally find, perhaps, in a house or a living room.
Q What I am asking you now is, did you make an inquiry in your own mind, as you looked at the scene the second time, and noted that there was a flower pot on the scene?
A Uh-huh.
Q At present, did you think about the flower pot you saw at that time?
A I really don't think I got the question.
Q My fault, let me rephrase the question.
A Thank you.
Q This is the second time you looked at the living room. Did you have occasion now to pay particular attention to the flower pot on the floor there?
A Particular attention: I observed the plant which had been in it. I did not put any particular -- there was no particular significance to me other than it was part of the disturbed area and I assumed the flower pot had been at one time resting on that upturned coffee table.
Q Did you note that when you looked at this room the flower pot was standing upright; is that correct?
A I do not recall.
Q You did notice that the plant and the ball of roots were not in the flower pot there?
A Yes, sir.
Q They were lying separate, some inches away from the flower pot; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q The flower pot was standing upright, but that did not, at that juncture, seem to you out of the ordinary?
A No, sir, not at that point.
Q Did it, at some later time, strike you that that might be out of the ordinary?
A Yes, sir; it did.
Q When did you first arrive at the conclusion that there was something strange about the upright flower pot with a plant and root material lying on its side?
A Later that morning.
Q How much later?
A I don't know, sir, a matter of hours, perhaps.
Q Around 8:00 o'clock?
A Perhaps.
Q Earlier?
A Perhaps.
Q Later?
A Perhaps; I don't recall when it was, sir. It was that first morning.
Q Didn't you decide eventually in your mind that that had to be a staged crime scene because a pot couldn't stand upright which had fallen off a coffee table, and the plant lying on its side?
A That came to mind, yes, sir.
Q I want to know when you made that first connection in your mind that there was something strange about the arrangement?
A It was sometime during that first morning, sir. I do not recall whether it was 7:00, 8:00, or 9:00 o'clock. I just don't recall, or if it was my own observation, or it was drawn to my attention. I don't know.
Q But you did arrive at that conclusion before the CID team arrived at 11:00 o'clock -- the CID team from Fort Gordon -- before they arrived at 11:00 a.m. that morning?
A I would say so; yes, sir.
Q All right, we will come back to that.
Having looked around the living room on the second viewing, not paying particular attention to the significance of the flower pot, did you have any discussion with Lieutenant Paulk at that time?
A I'm sure I did, sir.
Q Do you have any recollection of what he said to you?
A No, I'm afraid I don't.
Q As far as you can tell, because you don't recollect it, it must not have been terribly significant or new?
A Among the things we discussed early that morning was him having set up security around the house, putting the military policemen on the doorway to restrict access to the house, things of that nature. Again, probably talking more in detail of what he had first seen.
Q Mr. Ivory, what I'm trying to do is put the events in sequence, so what I need to know from you is whether those remarks, about the security around the house, were made at the second viewing of the living room or made at some later time. We'll come to all those times.
A It was right around that time; yes, sir. It was early on in the proceedings that this discussion came up.
Q How did it come up as to what the arrangements were for the military policemen outside?
A I believe I asked him what military policemen he had on the scene and what they were doing.
Q Well, hadn't you seen them when you went in and out of the house?
A I did not go into the rear of the house, sir.
Q I beg your pardon?
A I did not go outside, around the rear of the house.
Q Well no, wait a minute. First of all, you knew what the military policemen were doing out front, didn't you, because you had been there yourself?
A That is correct.
Q You saw a bunch of them standing on the steps of the house; is that correct?

A That is correct.
Q So you knew exactly what they were doing?
A That is correct.
Q You had walked through the house your first look through and seen Sergeant Tevere standing outside the utility room door; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q So you knew what he was doing?
A I knew what he was doing; yes, sir.
Q Did you ask him if there were any other MPs at the scene besides those men you had seen?
A Did I ask? Please ask the question again.
Q Did you ask him if there were any other men other than those standing around outside and in the back?
A I believe that was part of the discussion, as to who was there and what they were doing.
Q And what did he tell you they were doing?
A He said he had military policemen at the doors and around the house. I don't know if the word, "perimeter security" was being used, but generally, that was what was being done.
Q All right, what did you say about that information? Did you tell him that was good, bad?
A I don't recall that I said good or bad.
Q Were you satisfied with his security arrangements?
A Yes, sir; I was.
Q Now, did anything else go on between you and Lieutenant Paulk in the living room?
A Not that I can recall; no sir.
Q Anything else that you told him?
A Not that I recall; no, sir.
Q How long did you say you spent there during this second viewing?
A A matter of a few minutes -- three minutes, perhaps, five minutes.
Q Then you went down the hall at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell us what you did when you went down the hall?
A I went back into the bedrooms -- again, made a closer observation of what I had previously seen.
Q Which bedroom did you go to first?
A I believe the master bedroom.
Q Did you go into the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go into it further than you had the first time?
A Perhaps about the same distance, anyway.
Q In other words, about a step or two into the bedroom?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was Lieutenant Paulk?
A He was in the living room.
Q He did not accompany you down the hall?
A No, sir; I was alone at that time.
Q I see; what significant observations did you now make on the second visit to the master bedroom?
A I just took a closer look -- a more thorough observation of what I had seen previously. I observed a knife on the floor, the placement of the furniture, the position of the body, the items that were on the body, the wording "pig " on the headboard, blood splatters, and again, that bundle of bedding by the doorway. Generally, those are the observations I made.
Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Ivory: is this the first time you observed the knife on the floor -- the second observation in the master bedroom?
A I don't know, sir; I really don't. I know it became clear at that point. I am sure I saw it the first time. I just don't know if it registered or not.
Q Wasn't a knife which might be the lethal instrument important to you?
A Yes.
Q Did you not write down in your little investigator's notebook the first time you said, "Saw a knife which may be the potential lethal instrument"?
A No, sir.
Q Is your answer "No, sir"?
A I answered, "No, sir."
Q Is this the first time you saw the word "pig" written on the headboard in blood?
A I noticed blood on the headboard before. When I made a more closer observation, I could see -- turning myself sideways -- that that word had been written there.
Q And written in letters -- what, a foot or foot and a half high?
A That is correct.
Q Did you make a notation in your notebook that you had seen this?
A No, sir; not at that time.
Q You say you also observed blood splatters. Is that the first you noticed certain blood splatters on the wall?
A No, sir.
Q Aside from the knife and the word "pig," what was it that you saw on this second viewing in the room which was a new observation for you?
A Nothing, sir.
Q Did you look through the door of the master bedroom into the utility room?
A Yes; I did.
Q What could you see?
A I saw, again, Sergeant Tevere still standing at that doorway. I did walk over to the utility room doorway and look in there, and saw nothing of particular interest in there at that point.
Q Was the light on or off in the utility room?
A I think it was off.
Q Did you take your pen and flip the light on?
A No, sir; I did not.
Q You just looked around in the utility room without any lights on; is that right?
A As I recall; yes, sir.
Q Did not flash a flashlight in the room?
A No, sir; I did not.
Q But you concluded that there was nothing unusual about it; right?
A It was illuminated quite well from the bedroom.
Q I see; you didn't need a light in the utility room?
A No, sir.
Q You were able to observe that quite satisfactorily, that there was nothing of interest to an investigator in that utility room at that time?
A Nothing of immediate interest between the bedroom, the doorway, and my quick observation into the general area in the room.
Q Did you speak to Sergeant Tevere at that time?
A I don't recall if I did. I know I would not have asked him any specific questions; no. I don't recall if I did or not.
Q Did he say anything to you?
A Not that I recall; no, sir.
Q Did you say to him, "Be sure not to touch anything in or around the doorway"?
A No, sir; I did not.
Q Did you ask him, "Was this door open or shut when you got here, Tevere?"
A No, sir; I did not ask him that. That was one of the things I believe I discussed with Lieutenant Paulk.
Q When did you do that?
A That was during one of the conversations. It would probably have been when I came back into the living room. As to what doors were open, he was telling me that they came in through the back door, and someone had to go down and unlock the front door to let him in.
Q Well, again, it is really helpful if we can get sequences. Is it your best recollection that you learned that information about the back door when you finished the second walk-through of the crime scene, went back to the living room, and there was Paulk? Is that your best recollection of when you learned that?
A No, sir; it was either before the second walk-through or during my initial walk-through of the house with him.
Q Mr. Ivory, I asked you before to tell us all the things that Mr. Paulk or Lieutenant Paulk told you, and I have no recollection that you ever discussed before with us that Mr. Paulk told you about how they gained entry and about the condition of the back door. Do you have any recollection of telling me that this morning?
A No, sir; I don't.
Q Has your memory just been jogged?
A Yes; it has.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Is there anything else now that perhaps you are now recalling as we are talking that was said between Lieutenant Paulk and yourself before -- let me correct myself -- anything else Paulk told you during the first or second walk-throughs of the house that you have not told us prior to now?
A Not that I can recollect at this point, sir.
Q Don't you have any notes of this, Mr. Ivory?
A No, sir; not with me.
Q Don't you have any reports that you wrote about when you learned things and who told you various things?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, would it not help you to be more accurate today as to when you learned various pieces of information to have looked at those memoranda?
A I don't know, sir; perhaps, I don't know.
Q You mean, they are not good enough to help you?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED as to that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Are they incomplete and do not contain all the information necessary to refresh your recollection?
A I believe they contain generally the information that I obtained.
Q How about specifically the information -- you know, details, exact? Do they contain that information?
A I don't know, sir; I don't know if they do.
Q Did you by any chance prepare yourself to testify in this case by refreshing your recollection with any of your memoranda?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q Well, what did you look at to help you remember the details of this case?
A My Agent Activity Summaries and statements that I had prepared earlier during the investigation.
Q All right; would it now help you if you had a few minutes to look at those matters and tell us where it says in those documents, you know, the information that Lieutenant Paulk gave you in complete detail? Would it help you to do that?
A Perhaps; I don't know if it is contained in there, or if a lot of it is just contained in my memory. I can look at it and see, certainly.
Q I thought you told us about these various report-writing courses that you took in order to become a military policemen, and then learning to be a CID agent -- you told us about such courses; right?
A That is correct.
Q There is no doubt in your mind that they said, "Get it down on paper"; isn't that right? That is the essence of all those courses?
A That is correct.
Q "Memory is fallible," those courses taught you, didn't they?
A That is correct.
Q And you yourself know that memory is fallible?
A That is correct.
Q You had been a CID agent in 1970 for about four years at that point; right?
A That is correct.
Q Prior to that a Provost Marshal Investigator?
A That is correct.
Q This was the most significant case you had ever worked on?
A That is correct.
Q The first time you were ever the lead investigator in a homicide; right?
A That is correct.
Q This was not just a homicide. It was a triple homicide?
A That is correct.
Q You were relying upon your memory to get the details down of what the first people on the crime scene saw?
A No, sir.
Q All right; what did you do to record those details?
A I knew that all these people would be subsequently interviewed by myself or other agents to extract all available information from them.
Q Subsequently they would be interviewed?
A Yes, sir.
Q How much subsequently would that subsequent interview be?
A Later that day, in my mind, it would have been.
Q Mr. Ivory, did you know that the first two MPs on the scene were not interviewed by you or any CID agent for something like five months after the crime; isn't that right?
A No, sir; I don't know that.
Q All right; let me ask you, do you know Mr. Mica -- Kenneth Mica?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was he the first or second MP on the crime scene?
A I believe he was the second.
Q It was fairly important, wouldn't you say, to know what he saw in the crime scene; isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Fairly critical to know whether he or Mr. Tevere or anyone else had to, or accidentally, disturb the crime scene; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q When was Kenneth Mica, Specialist, interviewed by you first of all about what he did that night?
A I don't know that he was ever interviewed by me as to what he did that night.
Q All right; when was he ever interviewed by anyone connected with the CID and this investigation as to what he did and saw in the crime scene that night?
A Sir, I don't know when he was first interviewed. I would assume it was that day or a day following.
Q You assume again. Don't you have any facts in your records?
A Sir, my area of concentration was in the crime scene of collecting the evidence, photographing the crime scene, and leaving the statement-taking, the interview-conducting of these people to the people that were set up for that purpose back at the CID office.
Q Of course, you were the lead investigator, however.
A At the scene; yes, sir.
Q But you want us to see your view as really the collector of evidence; is that what you were doing?
A That is correct.
Q But you were concerned whether evidence had, been disturbed by anybody before you got there, weren't you, sir?
A Of course.
Q Now, isn't it a matter of fact that in July of 1970 was the first time that you learned from any source that items in the crime scene in the living room had been disturbed prior to your arrival?
A No, sir; I can't say that.
Q Do you recall you and I having a conversation in July of 1970?
A Was that during the Article 32 or during the taking of that deposition? I'm not sure.
Q During the Article 32 proceeding -- the military proceeding in this case. Do you recall that?
A Vividly.
Q I can't hear you.
A Vividly.
Q Vividly. Do you recall when I cross-examined you saying, "Did you know that Specialist Mica had testified under oath that the crime scene in the living room had been changed -- altered -- by one of the Army medics?" Do you recall that?
A No, sir. Not specifically.
Q How about generally?
A No, sir. Not generally.
Q You have no recollection of that?
A No, sir. It was, as you recall I'm sure, a long proceeding with an awful lot of questions.
Q Well, I know many things are said in the course of a court proceeding but, Mr. Ivory, don't you think that the issue of whether the crime scene was intact or not when you came to it was fairly important?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT.

THE COURT: I think he said that.

MR. BLACKBURN: He answered that question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Would it refresh your recollection if you could now look at the Article 32 transcript and see whether or not that was the first time you learned from my questioning of you that Mica had testified that the crime scene had been disturbed?
A That was perhaps the first time that I had learned that he had testified it had been disturbed, perhaps.
Q Could you read me --
A (Interposing) I'll take your word for it if you will read it to me.
Q We'll get to that in a minute. Let me ask you this. You remained as the lead investigator on this case from February 17th all the way through the Article 32 proceeding. Is that right?
A Sir, I don't know about that.
Q Had someone relieved you of that job?
A Not relieved me. I was being assisted, of course, by Mr. Robert Shaw, who was senior in rank to me, and at the crime scene -- on my arrival at the crime scene -- the initial processing -- I was in charge as I was the duty investigator.
As the case progressed, naturally I would not be the senior agent directing the operation of various warrant officers who were also working the case. No, sir. I was the principal agent in the case but not the senior agent.
Q Nobody asked you if you were the senior agent. I asked you whether you were the lead agent.
A I'd say a principal agent in the case.
Q Didn't you tell us this morning that you were the lead agent in this case?
A Yes, sir. The same.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this. He has answered this question a number of times.

MR. SEGAL: I'm sorry. I do not know whether Your Honor had ruled or deferred on the matter.

THE COURT: In the interest of time I'd better OVERRULE this one.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You did tell us you were the lead agent in this case. Weren't you?
A Yes, sir. I did.
Q What does it mean to be the lead CID agent in a homicide investigation?
A It means the head of the investigation assigned to you.
Q And does that mean eventually you are the person who is expected to testify in court about this case?
A That is correct.
Q Now, it doesn't mean that you are supposed to do all the work by yourself. Does it?
A No, it doesn't.
Q You have as much assistance given to you as needed and available?
A That is correct.
Q Nevertheless, the ultimate responsibility for preparing a case for court from the CID standpoint is you?
A Myself and Mr. Shaw. We were jointly assigned to the case.
Q Jointly assigned to the case?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was assigned to assist you. Wasn't he? Because he had more experience than you. Is that right?
A He was assigned to assist me at the scene. Yes, sir.
Q Because he had more experience than you?
A I think we were probably around the same experience factor.
Q You were probably around what?
A We probably had the same experience factor.
Q You mean you had maybe a homicide investigation under your belt and he had maybe one under his.
A Could be, sir. I don't know what his investigative background is -- case-wise.
Q From your testimony I gather then that you don't know when anybody ever interviewed Specialist Mica about possible disturbance of the crime scene. Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't recall when you learned that Mica had sworn under oath that the crime scene had been disturbed?
A Sworn under oath that the crime scene had been disturbed. If you say that it was at the Article 32 that I first learned that he swore to that, I would have to take your word for it, sir.
Q You have no reason to disagree with my statement to you that that was the first time?
A I don't know when he was previously sworn, if at all.
Q Did you ever look at the whole CID file in this case prior to the beginning of the Article 32 proceeding in this case in May and June of 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q Because you were the lead investigator and you had to testify in court about this?
A That is correct.
Q You testified at great length at that proceeding. Didn't you?
A That is correct.
Q You had all these varied details and facts gathered together as the lead investigator?
A That is correct.
Q I'm asking you to search your memory. Do you recall seeing a statement in there done by Specialist Mica in which anyone asked what his knowledge of the crime scene was?
A I don't recall specifically having seen a statement like that.
Q As a matter of fact, you have no reason to believe there is even such a statement in which Mica was asked about the crime scene prior to his testifying in July of 1970?
A Whether it was recorded as a part of a written statement or just as an interview with one of the CID agents I can't say.
Q But you read the file. Don't you know whether there is a statement there about what happened to the crime scene by Mica?
A Well, the file was quite voluminous and I cannot recall each entry that was made in it.
Q You knew that you were coming here to testify in this case last week. Didn't you, Mr. Ivory?
A That is correct.
Q The Government was going to have you testify about how everything at the crime scene -- that once you entered it -- that once you left it -- remained just the same except for certain specific facts that you have already mentioned here in evidence. Is that right?
A I'm sorry. Would you say that again, please?
Q There were a couple of things you have told us about in the last few days in which you indicate something was disturbed. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q Dr. Neal, for instance. You described him moving a body.
A Correct.
Q You told us perhaps someone moved some clothing at the head of the stairway. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Those things you knew about back in 1970?
A That is correct.
Q You knew when you came here last week that you were being called to tell us other than those two matters that the crime scene remained protected and the same from the time you came in there to the end of all the photographing of the crime scene. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, didn't you bother to look at the statements made by various MPs who were there before you to decide whether they had moved anything?
A I believe I probably got a verbal briefing of what the MPs had said. Now, I know there was discussion of this upturned or overturned flower pot. In my mind I can't say when exactly it was -- during the first few days, the first few weeks -- and I know it was discussed with the military policemen, and, as I recall one of the military policemen did say -- be it Mica or one of the others. If you say Mica, it was Mica that had seen somebody upright it -- some person who was a medical personnel or something like that, as I recall. Or perhaps that medic himself may have said it. I did not observe him doing it.
Q My question to you, Mr. Ivory, was that you knew you were coming to testify -- I'm sure before last week. Didn't you look over your file and read the statements that MPs had made?
A Yes, sir. I did.
Q When?
A Excuse me. No, I did not read what the MPs had said.
Q Did you get a briefing by somebody of what the MPs had said?
A During the course of the investigation, yes.
Q How about before you came to testify?
A No, sir.
Q In other words, you came in here, having reviewed your own testimony from prior proceedings of this case --
A (Interposing) Correct.
Q Is that right? And what you want us to hear is that from the time you got to the crime scene forward, nothing changed? Is that right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q But you did not bother to review other statements and other sworn testimony of what other people had done to the crime scene before you arrived. Isn't that correct? You did not review any of that?
A No, sir. Not at this particular time, no.
Q When did you ever review it?
A During the course of the investigation.
Q Back in 1970?
A During the course of the Article --

THE COURT: We'll take our morning recess, members of the jury, and we'll come back today at 11:30. Don't talk about the case.

(The proceeding was recessed at 11:10 a.m., to reconvene at 11:30 a.m., this same day.)


F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 11:30 a.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

(Whereupon, WILLIAM F. IVORY, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N (resumed)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, would I be correct in my understanding that aside from speaking to Lieutenant Paulk, you yourself never asked any of the MPs, who were in the house before you, whether they had disturbed the crime scene?
A I don't recall at this point, sir, if I did, or if I did not. I was relying on the word of Lieutenant Paulk as having put together the information from the other MPs. I may have spoken to some other MPs, I don't recall at this point.
Q You may have spoken to some other MPs, you say, about disturbance at the crime scene?
A Or about their activities in the crime scene or what they had seen.
Q Well, when you say their activities in the crime scene, you mean whether they did anything that might have disturbed the physical evidence there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Let me read you something you said back in 1970, if I can. You recall testifying, of course, at the military proceedings in this case, is that right?
A Yes, sir; I do.
Q I want to read you from page 750 of the transcript of those proceedings a question and an answer and ask whether they sound familiar to you or not.
"Question: Did you ever make any efforts to determine whether the crime scene had in any way been altered or changed prior to your arrival there? Answer: Yes, I did."
Do you recall that question and that answer, or do they sound familiar?
A It sounds like something I may have said. I don't specifically remember that question and answer.
Q Would you have any reason to disagree with the stenographer's verbatim transcript?
A No, sir.
Q I want to ask you the next question and answer.
"Question: How did you do that? Answer: I asked Lieutenant Paulk, I said to him, 'Make sure nobody touches anything,' and, 'Has anything been altered?' That's not a quote, but the words to that effect."
Do you recall those words and those answers? Do they sound familiar to you?
A It sounds like an answer I would have given.
Q You have no reason to disagree with the stenographer's transcript, do you?
A No, sir.
Q "Question: In other words, you are saying you asked Lieutenant Paulk if anything had been altered prior to your arrival, is that correct? Answer: Correct."
Now, do you recall that or does that sound familiar to you?
A It sounds like something I probably said.
Q Do you have any reason to disagree with the stenographer's transcript in that regard?
A No, sir.
Q Going on.
"Question: And did you ask anyone else besides Lieutenant Paulk had anything been altered? Answer: No, I did not."
Did that question and answer seem familiar to you?
A Not specifically, but it sounds like an answer I may have given.
Q Now having read your testimony taken a few months after your investigation, would you now state for this jury whether or not, to the best of your recollection, you had ever spoken to anybody, prior to testifying about the alterations of the crime scene, other than Lieutenant Paulk?
A As I said, at this point, I don't recall. As it states in that transcript, I testified at that time when my mind was fresh, that that is what transpired. Therefore --
Q (Interposing) It is fairly obvious your mind was clearer in details in May, June, July 1970, wasn't it?
A I'm sorry.
Q It is fairly obvious that your memory was clearer about the details of this investigation in May, June, July, August of 1970?
A Of course.
Q I ask you the following question and answer:
"Question: Did you ever question any of the MPs who were in the house before you got there as to what they may have done to the crime scene, if anything? Answer: No, I did not."
Does that question and answer sound familiar?
A Not specifically; no, sir.
Q Do you have any reason to disagree with the transcript?
A No, sir; I certainly don't.
Q "Question: Did you ask any of the MPs who were there before you arrived at the crime scene as to whether they saw any other persons touch a thing or alter the crime scene? Answer: No, I did not."
Does that sound familiar, or do you disagree with the transcript?
A It is not specifically familiar, but I have no reason to disagree with the transcript.

THE COURT: Do you have any reason to disagree with any of the transcription of any of the testimony that you may have previously given?

THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I do not.

THE COURT: All right, that will cover that question.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q If we can go back, Mr. Ivory, to the completion of your second viewing of the house -- you returned to the living room, I gather, and you talked with Lieutenant Paulk, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Have you told us everything you can recall that Lieutenant Paulk said to you at that time?
A Everything that I can recall; yes, sir.
Q What happened next after you completed the second walk through the house?
A I went back to the Kalin house and asked Mr. Kalin if he felt up to accompanying me through the house to view the bodies and identify the bodies that were in the house.
Q Had you gone out the front door of the MacDonald house and into the front door of the Kalin house next door?
A That is correct.
Q Did you have to ring the bell or knock on the door?
A I don't recall, sir. The door may have been open.
Q Did you take a couple of minutes to get Mr. Kalin to agree to come down to go with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was somewhat reluctant to do that?
A No, sir; I wouldn't say reluctant. He wasn't happy about having to do it, but he knew it was something that had to be done, and he was willing to assist in that matter.
Q About how long did it take to go next door, get Mr. Kalin, and come back with him?
A Perhaps 3 to 5 minutes.
Q And when you left the MacDonald house to go to the Kalin's house, Lieutenant Paulk was still in the living room?
A Yes, sir; as I recall.
Q Was anybody else in the living room?
A I don't recall -- the personnel in the room having changed.
Q So far as you recall, Mr. Hagan Rossi was still there?
A As far as I recall; yes, sir.
Q And the unidentified MP was there, as far as you recall?
A Yes, sir.
Q Anybody else there?
A There were still military policemen in and around the doorway.
Q Milling around the doorway, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, you came back, and what did you say or do when you went into the house, this time, the third time, with Mr. Kalin, now?
A I asked Mr. Kalin to accompany me and that his function was to look at the bodies and see if he could identify them, and would he not touch anything or disturb anything within the house.
Q Those words you spoke to him inside the MacDonald house, right?
A Yes.
Q You cautioned him about touching anything there?
A Correct.
Q Did you ask Lieutenant Paulk when you came back with Mr. Kalin whether anything had happened to the crime scene while you were gone?
A No, sir; I did not.
Q He did not tell you anything had happened, did he?
A No, sir; he did not.
Q You just assumed the crime scene was the same as you left it there, right?
A That is correct.
Q As far as you could see, as you passed through the rooms, you saw no change in the crime scene; is that right?
A Not that I -- not that was readily jumping out at me.
Q All right, you and Mr. Kalin walked -- will you tell us to what part of the house and what did you do?
A Went down the hallway; looked first through the doorway of Kristen's bedroom.
Q Just hold it there one minute, please. When you went down the hallway, were you leading the way?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Kalin was behind you?
A That is correct.
Q He was a step or two in back of you?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, as you walked down the hallway, you don't know what he was doing behind you; do you?
A No.
Q You stepped gingerly over the clothes at the step there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Of course, you don't know whether he stepped gingerly or not either, do you?
A No, I don't.
Q All right, you went down the hallway, and then what did you do?
A I just stopped at the doorway to Kristen's bedroom; the room was illuminated at that time. He looked in, saw the body laying on the bed, and identified the body as that of Kristen MacDonald.
Q When you say the room was illuminated at that time, what do you mean?
A That means the light was on, sir.
Q I recall in your testimony that you had taken your trusty G. I. pen out and turned the light off when you last were there?
A No, sir; that was during my first round through the house.
Q Are you telling us that at some point you turned the light on in her room again and left it on?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you do that, the second time around?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, did Mr. Kalin look into that bedroom?
A Yes, sir; he did.
Q How far did he go into the room?
A He did not go into the room, he stayed in the doorway.
Q What did you ask him to do when you got to the doorway there?
A I said, "Can you identify that body?" or "Do you know who that is?" or words to that effect. He said, "Yes, that's -- " I think he used the words, "Krissie -- Krissie MacDonald."
Q Would you come down to the model, please, and show us -- may I just use these two figures here on the lower front. Please show us how -- put the wall back in place also.

THE WITNESS: Can you all see with that there?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Take the figures and show us which room you went to first, and where you and Mr. Kalin --
A Can I get down behind it?
Q Yes, please, let's do that. (Witness complies.)
Q Which of these two figures represents Mr. Kalin? (Witness arranges exhibits.)
A Mr. Kalin would have been here. As I was leading down the hallway I stopped and turned and he looked in the room.
Q You led him down the hallway and he stopped and turned, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q The figure you have has him looking into the door there. Is that the way Kalin was?
A He was looking --
Q Then we have to --
A (Interposing) From where he was in the doorway, he could look in the room, see that bed and see the body laying (sic) atop the bed.
Q I understand that. What I need you to do is tell us and show us where he stood. Now, do I have the position there, Mr. Ivory, now?
A Yes, sir, approximately the position.
Q All right, now, after he looked in the doorway there -- by the way, did he say anything other than, "that is Kris"?
A "Krissie."
Q "Krissie"? Did he make any other visible sounds?
A No, sir, not that I can recall.
Q Did he seem upset at the sight?
A He certainly did.
Q Keep your voice up, please.
A He certainly did; he was upset.
Q How did you note that, and what was there about him that gave you reason to believe he was upset?
A Just his general appearance and the way he was talking. You can tell if somebody's [upset] about something I am sure.
Q I think so. I am just curious what you observed him to do or say. All right now, what did he do next?
A He went to the room on the other side of the hallway, looked in, and he looked over and --
Q I do want the wall back here. Now, please move these figures again and show us.
A I would say something like this. (Witness arranges figures.)
Q Now, the figure that is into the room here, that is Mr. Kalin?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see that he actually had to get into the room at least part of the way you've indicated here?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were standing, again, back of his shoulder in the hallway?
A Yes, sir, in the doorway.
Q All right, please go back. Would you tell us, Mr. Ivory, what Mr. Kalin said, if anything, when he went to the second bedroom?
A He said, "That was Kimmie."
Q Anything else?
A No, sir, not that I recall.
Q Was the light on also in that room?
A Yes, it was.
Q And had been left on by you in your second tour of the building?
A That is correct.
Q Did he say anything -- did you make any statement to him at that time?
A Not that I recall.
Q Then you turned and you walked down to the master bedroom, is that right?
A That's correct.
Q Would you keep your voice up, please? And Mr. Kalin's following behind you?
A That is correct.
Q Would it be feasible to conclude he was still upset from the sight of the second child?
A Yes, sir.
Q You walked down and did you enter the master bedroom?
A No, sir.
Q How did Mr. Kalin get a view in there?
A He stopped at the doorway, he looked in the doorway, saw the body and said, "That's Colette."
Q Did you stand aside to let him come up to the doorway?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you do that?
A Yes, sir.
Q But neither of you went into the room?
A No, sir.
Q At that point did you go back to the living room and Mr. Kalin leave the house?
A That's correct.
Q Now, this is, I recall, the third time you went through the MacDonald house. Did you notice any changes in the house at that point?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q As far as you could tell, it looked just like it was when you first came there that evening?
A That is correct.
Q All right, how long did that procedure take, Mr. Kalin?
A A matter of a few minutes, three minutes perhaps.
Q All right, when you went back to the living room who was there?
A The same people as I previously stated were there; and as we were walking out the door back -- Mr. Kalin was going back to his house -- Mr. Connolly arrived.
Q Mr. Connolly was another CID agent, is that right?
A That's correct.
Q Did he bring anything with him in the way of equipment?
A I don't know if he brought a clipboard with him or not, sir; I don't recall.
Q Anything else happen besides Mr. Connolly's coming in? Did anyone else arrive at that time?
A Sergeant Alexander arrived also at about that time.
Q Just about the same time then, two people came in?
A That is correct.
Q Then Sergeant Alexander began to take photographs of the MacDonald house, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, who gave him the directions about what scenes were to be depicted in these photographs?
A I did, sir.
Q Sergeant Alexander, did he have any experience in photographing crime scenes?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long had he been doing that kind of work, do you know?
A I don't know, sir.
Q What was his experience, if any, in photographing crime scenes?
A He photographed the general crime scenes -- house breaking, burglaries, other such crimes as occurred on that military reservation.
Q Had you worked with him before?
A Yes, sir, I believe I had.
Q Had you ever given him directions to take photos at crime scenes?
A Yes, I have.
Q Was it a homicide case of any sort?
A No, sir.
Q An assault case of any sort?
A No, sir, I don't believe so.
Q A case involving blood spots of any sort?
A No, sir.
Q Fingerprints of any sort?
A No, sir.
Q Minute pieces of debris and fibers?
A Debris, yes. I recall working with him on a number of burglary or break-in cases, where he photographed the scene of entry, the method of entry -- the doorjamb being -- door being jimmied or whatever.
Q You mean he took a picture where a door had been pried open with a tool of some sort?
A Yes.
Q All right, tell us what instructions you gave Mr. Alexander -- Sergeant Alexander -- and how you went about doing that work?
A I told him generally what had been found in the house.
Q Well, tell us what you said then, please, if you can remember?
A I can't remember. I told him generally what had been found in the house, there were three bodies in the house, and that we were going to photograph the entire house. I asked him what he had with him, and I believe -- I believe he brought his own 4 by 5 Speedgraphic with him.
He set up his camera equipment, and the sequence I'm not sure of with him, but he began photographing the house.
Q All right, now, just hold it there. Did you give him any instructions about not touching any of the contents of the house?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q What did you tell him?
A He was to photograph the house, but he was not to touch or disturb any items in the house, be careful where he walked.
Q And what, if anything, did he say when you gave that instruction?
A I don't recall his specific answer, sir. It would have been in the affirmative.
Q Did he acknowledge what he said?
A He acknowledged that it was understood.
Q What room did Mr. Alexander start in?
A I believe he started by making some test exposures either in the north bedroom or the master bedroom, and then I think he went back out and started in the living room. Then I think he went back out and started in earnest in the living room; I believe that is the sequence.
Q Were you with him when he made these test exposures?
A Yes, sir.
Q You went back with him to the rear of the house?
A Yes, sir, either myself or -- and Mr. Connolly was also, I believe, with him.
Q Did you go with him?
A I was with him part of the time. I don't recall if I was with him all of the time. Either I was with him or Mr. Connolly was with him.
Q I'm only talking about during the period of time when he went to the master bedroom or the north bedroom to make these test exposures. Who was with him?
A I believe I was with him. I believe I recall him having made those test exposures with Polaroid-backed film.
Q With Polaroid film?
A That's correct.
Q And, do you know why he did that?
A Yes, sir, to see if he had a good exposure; then he could shoot on to the sheet film.
Q All right, having made the test exposure with the Polaroid film, did you tell Mr. Alexander -- Sergeant Alexander -- what your plan was for photographing this house?
A I believe I did.
Q And what was that plan?
A That we would proceed from room to room and make a clockwise photographing of each room as is always done.
Q And were you the person who decided to start with the master bedroom?
A I didn't say we started with the master bedroom. I don't recall exactly which room. I think it was the living room and him shooting into the hallway.
Q Well, all I want to know is what your plan was as to how this crime should be photographed. To your recollection, did you start with the living room?
A As I recall, living room and shooting into the hallway, yes.
Q Well, I am a little bit confused. Why would you walk to the rear of the house to go to the master bedroom or the north bedroom to make a test exposure and then go to the living room which has different lighting conditions and then shooting the film. Do you have an explanation for that?
A Yes, I have.
Q Good.
A I was also orienting him at that time to what was found in the house.
Q You were orienting? What does that mean?
A That means I was taking him through the house to show him what we were going to photograph.
Q Who decided that he needed to be shown a tour of the crime scene before he could take any pictures of it?
A A tour of the crime scene. It sounds like it was a Disneyland tour. It wasn't. I think it was necessary to take the individual through there to show him what he was going to be encountering when he photographed the scene.
Q Why did you have to tell him what he was going to be encountering since you had already described to him verbally what the crime scene contained and what the case was all about as far as you knew?
A Because I -- I felt that he should see what he was going to be photographing before he set up to do it.
Q What was the purpose for his being shown as well as told what he was going to photograph?

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT. It seems to me that he has answered the question.

MR. SEGAL: I think it is clear that he has not answered the question yet, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's let him answer it one more time even if he has.

MR. SEGAL: All right, thank you.

THE WITNESS: Would you ask the question again, please?

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Surely. Mr. Ivory, in view of the fact that you informed Sergeant Alexander of what the investigation was that was going on, why was it also necessary to take him on a tour and show him the same things before taking these pictures?
A It was very hard to describe even in Court what was seen in that house when we first went in there. It has to be encountered and experienced to fully appreciate what he was going to have to do and that he should see each room that he was going to have to photograph. That was my decision, and I made it.
Q He didn't make it; right?
A That is right.
Q All right. After you made this decision which room did you start with?
A As I recall, in the living room area shooting down the hallway.
Q I was just asking which room -- living room first?
A I believe so.
Q You are not certain, though?
A No, sir.
Q That was a firm decision you made to start somewhere; right?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, but suppose it was the living room -- what was the plan for photographing the living room?
A To go about it again in a clockwise manner photographing everything in the room.
Q The clock starts where if you were standing in the middle of the floor of the living room?
A The clock would probably start at the front door.
Q Facing the front door from what -- the center of the room approximately?
A From standing in the front door facing inward to the room.
Q Oh, I see. And so, Mr. Alexander proceeded to take a series of photographs starting from the front door proceeding in a clockwise fashion around the room; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, did he move from that position in the living room -- the one that you had -- the position you described as the front door?
A Yes, he did.
Q Where did he go for further photographs?
A He went from the doorway into the room perhaps in an area in front of the TV set and stereo and would keep on shooting around in a 360-degree coverage.
Q You say "perhaps he went in front of the TV" --
A (Interposing) I don't know exactly --
Q (Interposing) Just let me finish.
A I am sorry.
Q You say "perhaps he went in front of the television set." Do you not know with certainty the positions that he took up as he made these photographs?
A Could you say that again, please?
Q Do you not know with certainty the positions that he took up when he made these photographs?
A I know generally where he stood.
Q Generally means approximately?
A Generally means approximately, yes, sir.
Q Approximately means that you looked at the photos and you are now assuming that you know where he was; right?
A That, coupled with being with him at the time, yes, sir.
Q Your assumption plus being there helps you to figure out where it was that he stood?
A That is correct.
Q You don't have any specific knowledge; do you?
A I think that is specific knowledge.
Q Now, you have been asked to identify a series of photos that Mr. Alexander made yesterday and on Friday; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Of the living room?
A That is correct.
Q Have you been shown and have you shown this jury and discussed with us all the photos that you know that Mr. Alexander took of the living room?
A Yes, sir.
Q They are all those photos?
A Yes, sir.
Q There were no other photos taken by him of that living room at that time that you are aware of?
A Not that I am aware of, no, sir.
Q By the way, were his photos all in black and white?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ask him to make color photos, or did you ask him to make black and white?
A I asked him if he could make color photos and he advised me that he did not have color film with him.
Q Didn't have color film with him?
A That is correct.
Q Who had called him to come to the crime scene?
A I did.
Q You had told him that you had a triple homicide; right?
A No, I didn't.
Q Oh, you didn't tell him? You just said, "Come on over"?
A I did not know at the time that I had that. I did not know at the time that I had a triple homicide on my hands.
Q What do you mean you didn't know that you had a triple homicide when you called?
A Because I called him from the CID office before I went to the scene.
Q You thought you had what on your hands?
A A fatality.
Q So, you had at least a murder?
A That is correct.
Q The first one you were going to be lead investigator on; right?
A That is correct.
Q You did not ask him to bring color film with him?
A No, I did not.
Q So, he comes with black and white film; correct?
A That is correct.
Q He also doesn't bring enough flash bulbs to finish the job; does he?
A No, sir; that is correct.
Q When you say "no, sir; that is correct," do you mean that when he got there, you realized that he did not have enough flash bulbs to do the whole job?
A That is correct.
Q Would it have been helpful if you told him that you wanted the whole house done -- it would have been helpful if you told him that in advance of going there, that you were going to photograph the whole house?
A If I had known, yes.
Q You knew the Corregidor Courts residential area; didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q You had been in houses at Corregidor Courts before?
A Yes, I was.
Q You knew exactly how many rooms were in every one of those houses because they are made according to a fixed plan; is that right? Is that right?
A I know that they are set up according to a fixed plan, yes, sir.
Q Now, Mr. Alexander takes the pictures in the living room. Did those pictures show the crime scene exactly as you saw it when you first came into the house?
A As best I recall, it does, sir.
Q As a matter of fact, that was your testimony here in Court yesterday and Friday that the pictures show the crime scene the way you saw it when you arrived?
A That is correct.
Q What time was it that Alexander took the pictures in the living room?
A He arrived somewhere shortly after 4:20 and would have started photographing probably within a few minutes of that.
Q So, Mr. Alexander is there how many minutes after your own arrival on the crime scene?
A Perhaps 20 minutes.
Q How many pictures did he take all together in the living room area?
A Right now, I don't recall, sir.
Q Did you point out anything particularly that you wanted him to photograph?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell us the things you asked him to take photographs of?
A The area immediately around the couch and the overturned table or the upturned table.
Q Anything else in the living room that you asked him to take particular photographs of?
A No, sir, other than trying to make overlapping coverage of the whole room, no, sir.
Q After you took the pictures of the living room, what did you then direct Mr. Alexander to do?
A I believe we went back, and I am not sure what bedroom we went to -- perhaps the master bedroom -- I am not sure -- to make additional exposures. It was about this time that Staff Sergeant Alexander was not feeling well that night --
Q (Interposing) Before we get into that -- pardon me -- I had the impression that you had established in your mind a master plan as to how this house was to be photographed; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q All I want to know was exactly what room you went to from the living room. I heard you say "perhaps." Could you tell us why you are uncertain as to why -- what room you went to next?
A My plan was that each room was to be photographed entirely. I did not make up a sequence in which they were going to be photographed -- just that they were all to be photographed.
Q In other words, the master plan was to take all the pictures that you could of every room that you could; right?
A No.
Q Will you describe the master plan?
A Take all the pictures you can to show exactly what is in that room of any significant items, items of evidence, and the bodies, but not just to indiscriminately go in and shoot pictures.
Q Who would decide what were the significant items in the room -- you or Sergeant Alexander?
A Myself or Mr. Connolly.
Q He also had more experience than you; didn't he?
A No.
Q He had less experience than you?
A We are of about the same experience factor, I believe.
Q What was his rank at the time?
A We were the same.
Q Which was what?
A E-7.
Q All right. Tell us what happened in the -- is it the master bedroom you think you went to second with Sergeant Alexander?
A Sir, I am not sure. It was about at this point that, as I say, he was not feeling well that night. I later learned that he had a touch of the flu. Coupled with what he had seen in the house, that upset him quite a bit and we went back out of the house. At that time, coupled with the fact that he was running out of flash bulbs and I wanted color coverage of the house, I then went and tried to get hold of first trying to get some color film and then getting a photographer from the post photo lab to come to assist us.
Q Now, Sergeant Alexander told you he wasn't feeling well. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Told you that he was upset by the crime scene too?
A He didn't specifically say that. No, sir.
Q Did you escort him out of the house?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you walk back through the hallway into the living room somewhere?
A That is correct.
Q Did he stay there for a while or did he leave?
A He walked out to the front porch immediately.
Q Is that the last time you saw him that evening (sic)?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see him leaving the MacDonald house at that time?
A He left the MacDonald house at that time.
Q Now, when you walked Sergeant Alexander back to the living room, who was in the living room at that point?
A Major Parsons had arrived. Lieutenant Paulk was still there, and there was an MP by the door. I don't know if it was the same MP or not.
Q Where was Mr. Hagan Rossi?
A I don't recall at that point. I don't know.
Q You don't know whether he had left at that point or not?
A He was in the area but I didn't see him in the house. I don't recall having observed him in the house at that point.
Q I don't understand that he was in the area. What does that mean?
A In the area of the house -- the exterior of the house. I did not see him in the house. I do not recall having seen him there.
Q You mean to say Mr. Rossi was not seen in the living room of the apartment. Right?
A That is correct.
Q You assumed that he was outside somewhere. Is that right?
A Yes, sir. That is correct.
Q You don't know where he was.
A That is correct.
Q I would hope you would tell us if you don't know and you don't --

MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN the objection to that. It is an unnecessary comment of Counsel.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, you say you found major Parsons was in the living room, though, as Mr. Alexander was leaving?
A That is correct. Yes, sir.
Q And was anyone else there that was new?
A Not that I recall.
Q Was anything said to you and Major Parsons?
A I don't recall specifically.
Q Did he ask you any questions?
A I don't recall specifically the conversation between us at that point.
Q You did speak to him, though. Did you not?
A Yes. Yes.
Q He was the Deputy Provost Marshal -- that is, the deputy police chief -- of Fort Bragg.
A That is correct.
Q There was something exchanged between the two of you the way it worked?
A That is correct.
Q How about generally telling us what you talked about at that time?
A He had been briefed by Lieutenant Paulk as to what he had observed in the house.
Q Excuse me. How did you know that?
A I guess he told me. As I approached, they were talking about --
Q (Interposing) Well, tell us what you heard Lieutenant Paulk telling him.
A I don't recall the words he was using. I remember that generally he was speaking about what he had found. I don't recall what he was saying.
Q All right.
A I greeted him, and I do not recall the gist of the conversation between us at that point.
Q All right.
A In subsequent conversations with him in the early parts of that morning, we discussed restriction of access to the house. He was going to stay at the front door to assist us in maintaining order in the house and keeping unauthorized personnel from entering.
He was there to obtain information that he could take back to brief the Provost Marshal with, and also, later in the morning again we talked, I'm sure, with him and Lieutenant Paulk about making a list of military policemen who were in and around the scene.
Q Did any of this happen the first time you saw Major Parsons?
A I don't know, sir. That happened that morning -- the early part of that morning.
Q All right. After you had whatever words between you and Major Parsons, what did you do?
A That is when I went next door and called, I believe, for photographic assistance.
Q When you left the MacDonald house, who was there?
A Major Parsons, Lieutenant Paulk, and Mr. Connolly, a military policeman at the door, as I recall. I can't recall --
Q (Interposing) Keep your voice up, please.
A The military policeman who was standing at the door. I don't recall right now any other person being in that room.
Q By the way, when you and Sergeant Alexander were back in the master bedroom -- ?
A (Interposing) Uh-huh.
Q Yes? Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q Could you see into the utility room?
A Yes. The bedroom was illuminated, yes.
Q Could you see Sergeant Tevere standing outside?
A I don't recall specifically seeing him at that point.
Q Was the back door to the MacDonald house open or closed at that time?
A I don't recall at that point, sir.
Q All right. You go back to the living room and you go to call for another photographer.
A That is correct.
Q And you called a Mr. Page, Mr. Squires?
A No, I did not directly contact Mr. Squires. I contacted the post duty officer.
Q Yes. How long were you gone making these calls?
A I would have to have been gone about five minutes.
Q Why didn't you use the phone in the MacDonald house?
A I had observed by that time that both phones were off the hook, and I knew then if I -- there was -- Oh, God -- I don't know who had told me that perhaps he had used the phones to call the military police, and I did not want to disturb those telephones as they were off the hook -- obviously not where they were supposed to have been, and I did not want to disturb any potential evidence, any fingerprint evidence that may be on them.
Q It might be of some evidentiary value as to whether there were fingerprints on the telephone. Is that right?
A Yes. That is correct.
Q And the position of the telephone might be of some evidentiary value. Is that right?
A That is correct.
Q So, you didn't want to move that in any way?
A That is correct.
Q Right? You are going to keep this crime scene intact?
A As best I could. Yes, sir.
Q That's when you went next door to Kalin's house?
A That is correct.
Q You came back from Kalin's house, and who was at the MacDonald house at this point?
A There was no change in personnel at that point.
Q Were there any more cars outside?
A Yes, sir. Mr. Connolly's car was there. I didn't take specific note of other cars that had arrived.
Q What did you do when you came back from this call for photographic assistance?
A I think that at about that point Mr. Connolly called my attention to some blood stains that were in the kitchen. I went in there and looked at them.
Q Was that the first time you had noted those blood stains?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hadn't you been in the kitchen previously, Mr. Ivory?
A I had looked in there. I had not made a close observation other than to see that the phone which was right inside the door was off the hook. I didn't make a close observation in the kitchen.
Q How close did one have to get to see the blood stains in the kitchen, Mr. Ivory?
A To walk in and get a good look around. You could see it from the doorway, but I did not specifically note it at the time.

MR. SEGAL: If I may borrow a ruler. Indulge me for a moment, please.

(Pause.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, using the scale of the Government which I think is probably correct, it is a maximum of seven feet from the doorway to the front of the kitchen cabinets. In other words, much closer than you and I are standing. Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you actually say you came into this room and stood in the doorway of the kitchen?
A Yes, sir.
Q Right next to the doorway there was a telephone dangling to the floor. Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q You made your clockwise observation of the kitchen room also. Didn't you?
A That is correct.
Q Your eyes passed over the few items in there -- like a refrigerator, the sink there, and the stove. Right?
A That is correct.
Q Blood on the front of the sink?
A No, sir.
Q Where was the blood located?
A On the floor in front of the sink.
Q On the floor?
A Yes, sir.
Q No observation made by you at that time, though?
A No, sir.
Q All right. Mr. Connolly finally called it to your attention?
A That is correct.
Q Now, what else happened while you were waiting for the new photographer to arrive?
A As I recall, Mr. Connolly and I went through the house together again looking at the house.
Q This will be the fourth time you have gone through the house, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell us how you and Mr. Connolly made this trip, where you went?
A I have no recall of the route we took, except to say we visited each bedroom.
Q Walked down the hallway?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were leading the way showing the crime scene, because you knew what was going on, right?
A Me leading or going together. I don't know if he was in front or I was in front. I cannot recall, sir.
Q You are not suggesting that you and Connolly walked side by side down the hallway, are you?
A No, I'm not suggesting that at all.
Q Since Mr. Connolly had not been there before, it is fairly certain you went down the hallway leading the way?
A Perhaps.
Q What did you do? Spend a minute or two in each room?
A I would say; yes, sir.
Q Did you make any new significant observations in the master bedroom at that time?
A No, sir.
Q How about either the north or south bedrooms, any new observations?
A No, sir.
Q Then you went back to the living room?
A That is correct.
Q Did you note anything significant there?
A No, sir.
Q Was the crime scene totally undisturbed just as it had been the moment you had arrived there?
A Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.
Q Well then, what finally happens to break this situation where you are all waiting for the action to resume?
A There was surprisingly quick reaction by Mr. Squires, who lives quite nearby the installation, and he arrived shortly after my making that call. Within ten minutes, I would say, he had arrived at the house. I briefed him as to what had occurred or what we had found in the house --
Q (Interposing) Before you go into that, it only took you and Connolly a couple of minutes to walk through the house; is that right?
A Correct.
Q It took Squires about ten minutes to get there?
A Correct.
Q What did you do?
A Just observations discussing what we were seeing in each room. I don't recall the context of our conversation, but we were discussing what we were observing.
Q Go ahead?
A I'm finished.
Q I understood you to say that on this fourth walk-through, with Connolly, you know, it was very brief. Am I correct in my understanding of your testimony?
A Well, about ten or so minutes; yes, sir.
Q Oh, I see. You took ten minutes and by that time, Squires had arrived?
A Yes, sir. I said it was surprisingly quick reaction by Mr. Squires.
Q Do you know who you were standing around the living room talking with when Mr. Squires arrived?
A I don't know where I was in the house when Mr. Squires arrived.
Q All right, so he arrives then. What has he brought with him?
A His camera equipment.
Q What kind of camera had he brought?
A I don't recall if it was a 35 millimeter or a 120. I don't recall. But I asked him if he was ready to make color coverage and he assured me he was.
Q Well, both 35 millimeter and 120 are relatively small-sized negatives, aren't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q They were probably one-fifth the size of the negatives that Mr. Alexander's 4 by 5 inch camera would make; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q What about your camera in your car, Mr. Ivory, what size camera was that?
A As I recall, the best I can recall, it was a new camera we had at the office, and I think it was made by Speedgraphic Company. I think it had variable backs on it. I think it was perhaps -- because it wasn't used, that I recall, but I think it was fitted perhaps with a 120 millimeter back.
Q You mean it was a kind of camera that could also make a large-sized negative just like the one Alexander had?
A Yes, sir.
Q But it could also hold smaller film?
A That is correct.
Q Did you suggest to Mr. Squires that you had a large-size format camera, which would allow you to get very good-sized negatives, which make for good reproduction that was available for him to use?
A I would not presume to tell Mr. Squires, a professional photographer, how to do his business.
Q Now come, come now, Mr. Ivory --

MR. ANDERSON: (Interposing) OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL: May I finish my question?

THE COURT: He was objecting to the "Come, come." Go, go.

MR. SEGAL: Go, go. We'll go back.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, you know there's a difference in quality between photographs made from teeny negatives as opposed to quality photographs made from a large negative; you know that, don't you?
A Generally speaking; yes, sir. For enlargement purposes, yes.
Q I beg your pardon?
A For enlargement purposes, perhaps, yes.
Q Sure, and you knew for a criminal investigation that you weren't going to come to court with photographs the size of a 35 millimeter negative, were you?
A Of course not, sir.
Q You wanted large size 8 1/2" by 10" photos, yes; right?
A Yes.
Q Some of these wonderful big blow-ups the Government makes 2 feet by 3 feet, right?
A No, sir.
Q Beg your pardon?
A No, sir.
Q Haven't you seen the blow-ups over there?
A That was not my idea at the time of processing the crime scene.
Q I know, but you know those things happen in criminal investigations that someone wants to dramatize something by blowing it up.

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor. He is arguing with him.

THE COURT: Yes, I will SUSTAIN the objection to that question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q For clarity of the jury, you are aware sometimes that photographs have to be enlarged so that everyone can see it very easily, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And we are berating the obvious, are we not, when we say that you realized that a larger-sized negative would make for better and clearer photographs for in court, is that right?
A Generally speaking, that could be considered the truth.
Q Why didn't you offer Mr. Squires the availability of this special camera that the CID had?
A As I said, sir --

THE COURT: (Interposing) I believe he answered that question.

MR. SEGAL: All right.

THE COURT: He said that Squires was a pro and he would not presume to tell him how to do his business.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Ivory, what was it that Mr. Squires was a professional in?
A He was the chief of the Photo Section at headquarters of the 18th Airborne Corps in Fort Bragg.
Q How many crime scenes had he ever photographed?
A I have no idea, sir.
Q To your knowledge, had Mr. Squires ever photographed a crime scene?

MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor. He already said he had no idea.

THE COURT: Can you add anything to your previous answer?

THE WITNESS: Sir, I worked with him on a number of occasions and again I find it difficult to draw the line before and after the MacDonald investigation.

THE COURT: You were not keeping score on the number of scenes of various crimes that he photographed from time to time?

THE WITNESS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Very well. Ask him something else.

Note from Christina Masewicz: The Court Reporter's misspelling of Graebner was corrected to read Grebner in the above transcript.


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