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TRANSCRIPTION OF INTERVIEW OF CPT. JEFFREY R. MacDonald
APRIL 6, 1970 AT CID OFFICE FORT BRAGG, N. C.
PERSONS PRESENT:
CPT JEFFREY R. MacDonald
CW3J GREBNER, CHIEF, CID
WO1 ROBERT B. SHAW
SP7 WILLIAM F. IVORY, CRIM. INVES.
VOLUME 2
TRANSCRIPTION OF TAPE 2
BY MR. GREBNER:
Investigator: Before we start again, I--by regulation, I must advise you again of your rights. They are that you have the right to remain absolutely silent. If you do make statements, it could be used against you. You have the right to legal counsel which will be a qualified lawyer; it can be civilian or military. If he's civilian, it will be at your own expense; military, it can be of your own choosing if he is reasonably available. If not, one will be appointed for you.
Now, even if you decline to have counsel at this time, it doesn't mean you can't stop at any time and say, "I no longer desire to answer questions and I desire counsel," and at that time we will stop.
Now, Captain, at this time, do you desire counsel? Legal counsel?
MacDonald: No counsel.
Investigator: And you are willing to answering questions concerning--(Inaudible) at this time?
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: I have been sitting here most of the morning not saying very much and just listening to your story, and I have been an investigator for MacDonald long time. And, if you were MacDonald PFC, an uneducated person, I might try to bring you in here and bluff you. But you are MacDonald very well educated man--doctor, Captain--and I'm going to be fair with you.
But your story just doesn't ring true. There's too many discrepancies. For instance, take a look at this picture. Do you see anything odd about that scene?
MacDonald: No.
Investigator: It is the first thing I saw when I came to the house that morning. Notice the flower pot?
MacDonald: It's standing up.
Investigator: Uh-huh (Yes). Notice the magazines?
MacDonald: Yeah.
Investigator: Notice the edge of the table right there?
MacDonald: I don't understand the significance of it.
Investigator: Okay. The lab technicians, myself, Mr. Ivory and Mr. Shaw and any number of other people have tipped that table over. It never lands like that. It is top-heavy and it goes all the way, even pushes the chair out of the way. The magazines don't land under the leaning edge of the table. They land on the floor.
MacDonald: Couldn't this table have been pushed around in the struggle?
Investigator: It could have been, but it would have been upside down when it stopped. The plant and the pot always go straight out and they stay together in all instances.
MacDonald: Well, what--what are you trying to say?
Investigator: That it is MacDonald staged scene.
MacDonald: You mean that I staged the scene?
Investigator: That's what I think.
MacDonald: Do you think that I would stand the pot up if I staged the scene? It's just my own, you know, interest.
Investigator: Somebody stood it up like that.
MacDonald: Well, I don't see the reasoning behind that. You just told me I was college-educated and very intelligent.
Investigator: I believe you are.
MacDonald: Well, why do you think I would--I don't understand why you think that I would stage it that way if I was going to stage it.
Investigator: And your glasses, which you told originally were on the coffee table, and over there underneath the drapery. And they could have gotten there, but you weren't wearing them, your glasses, when you went into the bedroom. And on the--they are lying with the outer edge of the lens down on the floor, yet on the face of the lens there's blood.
MacDonald: Maybe someone knocked them over.
Investigator: But how did they get blood on them?
MacDonald: I assume from the person who knocked them over.
Investigator: Another feature here. There's an Esquire magazine laying there. There's a box laying on top of it.
MacDonald: Where is that?
Investigator: Right here. Across which--well, on the--this edge, right underneath the box. There's blood on the edge of the pages. This whole thing here was staged.
MacDonald: That's a pretty powerful statement. Changes things around, doesn't it?
Investigator: It sure does.
MacDonald: Well, there's nothing I can say that--to refute you if that's what you believe. But as far as I'm concerned, it is not staged.
Investigator: Just about everybody, including lab technicians, lawyers, provost marshal, staff judge advocate, myself, Mr. Ivory, Mr. Shaw--the table has probably been tilted, tipped, and the only way it would have landed like that is for it to be put that way--balanced very carefully--(Inaudible)--by hand.
MacDonald: You mean if someone was straddling that table or something, it couldn't fall that way?
Investigator: No. If someone was straddling that table when it went over, he'd probably get broken ankle--it's that top-heavy.
Captain MacDonald, is there anything you can think of?
MacDonald: Well--I can't help you. What do you want me to say? You are telling me that--that I staged the scene and that's it. It's little ludicrous.
BY MR. GREBNER:
Investigator: Well, you must understand that I am looking at it from the point of an investigator, past experience.
MacDonald: I understand that.
Investigator: Notice the rug right there?
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: It slips and slides and rolls up very easily. In the position it is in, that's where you would have been having the struggling, pushing against three men.
MacDonald: Well, at the edge of the bed and on the end of the hallway.
Investigator: Uh-huh (Yes). The rug is--was undisturbed.
MacDonald: Well, what do you want me to say? I don't--I'm not an investigator and you are telling me that--that I staged the scene and I--I'm telling you that things happened the way I told you.
Investigator: You know, you as doctor and I as an investigator, have seen many people come into emergency rooms and they are pretty badly hurt.
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: I've seen people who were shot directly in the heart with MacDonald .38 and run over a hundred yards. You had one ice pick wound, apparently from an ice pick; punctured your lung to the point that it collapsed 20 percent of it. You had one small lump on your head.
MacDonald: No. Correction, I had two.
Investigator: Two? Okay, two. Not, apparently, wounds or bumps that would have been caused by this type of club that we have in this instance, if anyone was swinging with any force.
MacDonald: Well, I can't agree with you there medically. I have treated patients who have died and there's nothing but MacDonald little abrasion on their forehead.
Investigator: That's probably true, but here you are. You've been hit twice by now. This didn't knock you out. This is according to your story.
Yet at a point here where the old adrenalin is pumping into your system; you are fighting for yourself and your children; and yet, you passed out here, according to your story, at the end of the hallway.
MacDonald: It wasn't exactly passing out, Mr. Grebner. I was hit on the head a couple of times.
Investigator: But that didn't knock you out. You were still pushing and fighting against these people.
MacDonald: Well, apparently it did knock me out.
Investigator: For an unexplained reason you passed out.
MacDonald: No, no, I didn't pass out. Apparently, I was knocked unconscious.
Investigator: By a third blow?
MacDonald: I don't--I don't know how many blows.
Investigator: But this weapon was used on Colette and Kim. It is a brutal weapon. We have three people here that are over-killed almost; and yet, they leave you alive.
MacDonald: Well, I've gone over that myself and the only way I can see that I was the first one; that when I was unconscious--
Investigator: While you were laying there in the hallway, why not give you MacDonald good lick or two behind the head with that club and finished you off?
MacDonald: Well, Maybe I was--
Investigator: You saw them eye-to-eye. They don't know that you wouldn't be able to identify them at MacDonald later date. Why leave you there alive?
MacDonald I don't know. Maybe they assume that--that I was dead and the frenzy got worse and worse. I--I don't know.
I've thought about this. I've spent many sleepless nights in the last six weeks, you know.
The only thing I can say is I did hear some screaming and perhaps I was the first one, and then things got worse and worse. I don't know.
Investigator: Well, that means that there had to have been somebody in the back bedroom there with Colette, wouldn't it?
MacDonald: Unless they had already hit her or stabbed her once or twice and left her and come in to see me, and then she started screaming, and they went back on their way out. That's the only way I could have worked it out.
Investigator: And then we have the fibers from the threads that sewed your pajama pocket on directly underneath her body.
MacDonald Sir, I told you I can't--I can't explain some of those fibers. That's--that's beyond my capabilities. I just told you the only thing I know; and, obviously, the implication is real bad for me. But I can't--how can I explain that? I don't know.
It had to be either on my hands or body or--or the--the aggressors, and they were dropped. That's all I can tell you.
Investigator: And as we enter the bedroom, we have Kimberly's blood on the rug--mat. To the right of the door, we have a sheet and coverlet for the bed; and on the sheet is Colette's blood and Kimberly's; and on the bedspread--isn't that correct-- on the bedspread it's Colette's blood, large quantities--both--the hairs of Kimberly.
Now hippies don't--they let bodies fall where they may.
MacDonald: Right, I agree with you.
Investigator: So, it is another staged scene probably. Kimberly was returned to her bed--possibly carried in the sheet.
MacDonald: Couldn't that blood have been transported to that bed any other way? On the hands?
Investigator: Too much of it--too much blood. It couldn't have been transported by hands--(Inaudible)
--but there's blood there.
There is absolutely no evidence that could be found, even though we had technicians for five days in there, of an alien being in that house. There would have had to have been five people by your story. You saw four of them. You get that many people in a house that small, you're going to have evidence of it.
MacDonald: You mean to tell me there was nothing in that house from anyone else?
Investigator: Not in those bedrooms.
MacDonald: Well, there's been plenty of people in those bedrooms. I mean if they hadn't been there that night, there were people in those bedrooms; so I don't understand what you are saying.
That--that--isn't--that doesn't necessarily hold true to me, in my mind.
Investigator: We are talking about people in there to commit a crime. Not people the kids had in. The kids were asleep
MacDonald: I don't know what you want me to say here.
Investigator: At one time you told Mr. Hodges that there was an ice pick in the house.
MacDonald: No, I never said that. That's absolutely incorrect. I was asked--
Investigator: Mr. Caverley and Mr. Hodges, there were two men. One is an FBI man and one was my man.
MacDonald: I never said there was an ice pick in the house. We had no ice pick. I'm lazy and I buy cubes. That's--that's incorrect, sir and--(Inaudible).
Investigator: Well, most of us have ice picks. We don't use them as ice picks quite often, We use them for opening canned milk.
That club--you said you had never seen that before? Do you know that the paint on that is the same as paint that's on the sidewalk out in the back of your house?
MacDonald: Look ah--
Investigator: It is the same as the paint on scraps of wood that you have in your locked storage room.
MacDonald: Uh-huh (Yes).
Investigator: It is the same as the paint on a pair of surgical rubber gloves that was in your locked storage room. That piece of wood came from your house.
MacDonald: It might have been. I haven't seen the piece of wood. You said it was a two by two and I--I know of no two by two's.
Investigator: It was cut off of probably MacDonald four by--two by six, or something like that.
MacDonald: Well, I didn't recognize it from the picture, and you said it was MacDonald two by two before, and I know of no two by two's that I have, and I didn't recognize it from the picture.
Jesus Christ, this is getting--what's this called? Circumstantial evidence that--yeah.
Well, go ahead. What else do you have?
Investigator: I was just throwing things in for you to consider.
MacDonald: Well, what you are doing, you are sitting here telling me that I killed my wife and kids.
That's un--that's unbelievable. Christ's sakes. What's my motive? What would I do that for?
Investigator: We can conjecture MacDonald lot of reasons, perhaps.
MacDonald: You think I wasn't happily married?
Investigator: I'm happily married too, but sometimes I get pretty mad at my wife, particularly when I was younger and more easily angered--(Inaudible).
MacDonald: You think I could get mad enough at someone to do that?
Investigator: I have known it to happen before.
MacDonald: Holy Christ. I tell you what it looks like to me. It looks like you've run out of things and--and you are picking out someone--the easiest one. That's what it looks like to me.
You've got to solve it by the end of the fiscal year so when the report goes in, there's MacDonald hundred percent solved rate.
Investigator: No, I've been at this for ten--twenty years, and I'm going to stick one more. So, I'm not in any hurry.
It is just that we have all this and it would tend to indicate that you were involved in it rather than five people who came from the outside and picked 544 Castle Drive, and went up and were lucky enough to find your door open.
I've spent many a night out on this post, and I know one thing, with the number of dogs we have around, you don't go around rattling doors here and find one that's open so you can come in and for no apparent reason and knock off three people. At that hour of the morning, the patrols we have around would keep a group of five people from wandering through the housing area-- or driving through...
MacDonald: Oh, that's a lot of baloney. I've never seen a patrol there at night, and I've been there since August.
Investigator: Well, I can assure you they are there. You probably weren't looking for them.
MacDonald: Well, where do we go from here?
Investigator: It's up to you.
MacDonald It's not up to me. I told you what I--what I know. You put some pictures in front of me, tell--tell me they are staged and tell me I did it.
BY MR. SHAW:
Investigator: You've got what? MacDonald five-room house there?
MacDonald Right.
Investigator: And at least three of them were set-ups, just flat set-ups--staging--
MacDonald: Which three are those?
Investigator: Living room, north bedroom, south bedroom.
MacDonald: What's the north bedroom? You mean the master bedroom?
Investigator: The front bedroom and the back bedroom. Kristy's bedroom.
MacDonald: Kristy? The baby?
Investigator: The baby's bedroom.
MacDonald: What--what did I stage in there? Just for my own curiosity?
Investigator: Let me tell you something. I don't want to step out of line here; and if I am, I'm sorry. I don't know that you did that, Captain MacDonald . I don't know it at all.
But my experience tells me, too, that what you say isn't right. What you say, Captain MacDonald, is not right. Why it isn't, I don't know. I don't know what you know.
MacDonald: You mean because it is an unusual, bizarre crime?
Investigator: No, no, the crime isn't bizarre. It happens every day, every day. In New York City they have twenty or thirty murders MacDonald day, some far worse than this. But by the physical evidence that is in this house--
MR. IVORY: And the lack of physical evidence.
Investigator: --What you say isn't so. It just isn't so.
Now, there--there are variations I am thinking of. We don't know what happened. I don't know what happened in that house.
Maybe some of the others who are not here who are concerned with it are convinced, but I am not. I am not at all convinced.
I don't know what happened. I don't know how this started. I don't know what the succession of events were. I have no idea.
MacDonald: And you'd like to help me. Right?
Investigator: No, I'm not going to tell you I want to help you.
MacDonald: You have the soft approach and he has the hard. Basic intelligence.
Investigator: Basic intelligence, okay. You don't want to hear what I have to say?
MacDonald: Sure, I am very interested.
Investigator: I think Mr. Grebner made that kind of clear to you.
MacDonald: What's that?
Investigator: That he's not going to try to fool you--bluffing. It's called the Mutt and Jeff approach. I guess you've heard that before.
MacDonald: Right. As a matter of fact, I just learned it two weeks ago.
Investigator: Okay, you've discussed this with somebody?
MacDonald: I was a prisoner of war physician in MacDonald training room.
Investigator: You can think what you want to, I don't care; but I wish you wouldn't.
But I am not convinced what other people think is right, but I do know that what you're say-ing--but I believe that what you're saying isn't so.
MacDonald: Wow. Step one, you lose your family; step two, you get blamed for it, huh? That's terrific, great.
BY MR. GREBNER:
Investigator: You are the only that was left alive there.
MacDonald: Oh, well, that's--that's pretty significant.
Investigator: It sure is from--from the way the others were taken care of. Everything else is very methodical. There was no erratic behavior in that house. Maybe to start with there was some erratic behavior---other than that,--very methodical.
MacDonald: How was I supposed to have gotten these wounds?
Investigator: You could get these wounds, at least the ones you had--the puncture--you could have done it yourself.
MacDonald: A couple of blows on the head and a lot of little puncture wounds, and a little cut on the abdomen and a couple of stab marks in the arm and--and a puncture wound in the lung.
Investigator: That's one.
MacDonald That's reasonable, or I paid someone. That's the other one.
Well, I don't know what you men want me to say. I don't have much to lose, do I? I lost everything else. You men are making an awful lot out of this on circumstantial evidence. It can probably be explained, I can tell you that.
Investigator: That's--that's why I am bring it up; to--(Inaudible)--explain.
MacDonald: I mean I can't--I can't explain the scene. It just seems to me that in MacDonald struggle, any staging would be possible. You know what I mean?
In other words, people stepping on things or legs against things, holding it when it fell or--ah--it doesn't--it just doesn't ring true to me that that has to be a staged scene. I don't--
Investigator: You mean to tell me that when wrestling and a table starts tipping over, someone--
MacDonald: No, no, I didn't say that, Mr. Grebner. I mean you are just making fun of what I am saying.
I mean you asked me a question--you asked me for my idea, and my idea is that if this guy was standing next to that table, and perhaps this girl was moving around behind him or something, and the table goes over and it hits her leg.
Investigator: And how did the flower pot stay upright?
MacDonald: I don't know. Maybe someone stepped on it and tilted it. Maybe it bounced when it flew off the table.
Investigator: It never did that in all the times we tried it.
MacDonald: Well. You are telling me that I staged the scene and did an absolutely idiotic thing, and you're not very methodical. That doesn't hold any water. What did I do? Dump out the plant and sit the pot down? I mean if I staged the scene--ahh--
Investigator: You might have dropped it--it was on top of the table; and when you tipped the table over--
MacDonald: Maybe one of the medics or the MPs kicked it or stood it up, you know. When did you people start thinking like this?
I mean when did all this come to light?
Investigator: This scene right here--I questioned when it first came up. I thought it was very odd. There were questions about the plant, the pot and the magazines. I didn't realize that the table was that top heavy---
MacDonald: But it took-- it took--
Investigator: Touching--
MacDonald: But it took your office six weeks to question me about these things?
Investigator: Captain, we've been all over the United States tracing down hippies and girls with long blond hair.
MacDonald: I'm sure. I understand that, but it seems to me that--
Investigator: This box just holds part of the work we've done. We've talked to thousands of people.
(Pause)
MacDonald: Jesus Christ, this is a nightmare.
(Pause)
This is like Edgar Allen Poe. Wow! Apparently, you don't know much about my family and myself, I'll tell you that, to come up with this conclusion. Nor me, for that matter.
BY MR. SHAW:
Investigator: What kind of MacDonald man are you, Captain? You say we don't know much about you, what kind of MacDonald man are you?
MacDonald: Well, I'm bright, aggressive. I work hard, and I had a terrific family, and I loved my wife very much, and this is the most asinine thing I've ever heard in my whole life.
Seems almost as bad as the next morning, thinking about this and thinking it was a dream. Jesus Christ!
You can ask any patient I've ever treated. I go way out of my way. I've spent my whole, you know, my whole medical career--it isn't that long--but to date I've never had a problem with a patient. Always gone out of my way; always worked extra hours; always helped people.
I loved my wife more than any couple I know. I've never known a couple that was as happy as our family, and you come up with this shit. Goddamn it. (Crying)
You couldn't have asked one friend. You didn't even talk to some of them. You made appoint-ments and never showed up.
Goddamn it, how do you come up with this that?
We even had plans for a farm in Connecticut.
(Pause)
(Crying.) Well, that's load of bullshit, I tell you. God damn it.
BY MR. GREBNER:
Investigator: Jeff, I have to go on what evidence that is available to me.
MacDonald: Yeah, bullshit. Looking at some circumstantial thing, making MacDonald mountain out of MacDonald mole hill.
Investigator: During an investigation, we have to look at the circumstantial evidence, the real evidence.
MacDonald: What--what--no one ever had as good a life as I had. What the hell would I try to wreck it for? Christ, I was MacDonald doctor.
Jesus, I had a beautiful wife who loved me and two kids who were great. We were just over all the hard things. It just doesn't--it just doesn't make any sense. (Crying.)
(Pause)
Well, what do we do now?
BY MR. IVORY:
Investigator: Another thing, one of those knives has been identified by people who had been in the house as having coming from your house. The problem here is that--
MacDonald: Well, why don't you show me the damn knife? You show me a photograph.
BY MR. GREBNER:
Investigator: At least two of the knives that were used, apparently used, came from the house. You've got four plus people come into your house--
MacDonald: Who identified these weapons? Who identified these weapons?
Investigator: The lab identified the club; but the same people, the same people you knew.
MacDonald: All right, that's possible. I agree with that. I had wood all around. I had wood in the shed; I had wood in that little hole next to the house. That's all possible. Who identified the knife?
Investigator: We have people who has been in the house before and positively identified the knife.
MacDonald: Well, either they are wrong, or that's not a good photograph, one of two. Or it was a new knife that my wife had gotten and I haven't seen yet. But I don't know who identified that, and I'd have seen it before anyone else would.
It seems to me there's a lot of paring knives in the world, and I never told anyone I had an ice pick. That's lie, or they misunderstood me. I never--I never had a--I know we--well, like I said, maybe my wife had one that she had just purchased. But anything that had been there for a while, I probably would have seen it. I don't know of any ice pick.
That God damn Colonel Kriwanek is unbelievable. He says to the press, "One of the mysteries is where the weapons came from." Why the hell didn't he show me the weapons and ask me?
Investigator: If you had a struggle right in this area--see these? They were on the couch. They were up in the hallway right at the top of the two steps
MacDonald: They were what, sir?
Investigator: They were in the hallway.
MacDonald: Yeah.
Investigator: Right at the top of the steps. If there had been MacDonald struggle there, it seems there would have been things kicked around in the hallway.
MacDonald: We often piled, you know, loose stiff in the living room at the end of the hallway there.
Investigator: That particular shot there was taken--
MacDonald After some things changed position.
Investigator: No.
MacDonald: Yeah, bullshit. You just told me everything was in the hallway.
Investigator: Yes, that clothing changed position--
MacDonald: Oh, I see. That's the only thing in here--that's changed position? Uh-huh (Yes) Who's going to swear to that?
Investigator: This was moved so we would not step on it. But it was photographed in place
MacDonald: Good. What else was moved so you wouldn't step on it? Maybe this? Maybe the table? Shit.
This gets more unprofessional every minute, I tell you that.
Investigator: That's not true.
MacDonald: How can you show me a photograph and make a big point out of a flower pot's position when something in the photograph has changed position?
Investigator: Well, I have other photographs. This happens to be just one of them. I have a photograph where this is up here, and this scene is like this, too. We have several different photographs.
MacDonald: And that's marked number one. And the other one is marked number one, because that was taken before this was moved.
Investigator: The difference is this was taken in the day and this one was taken immediately in the morning. That's another shot because the lab technicians went around and photographed everything they picked up--such as the bloodstains, hairs, fibers, et cetera.
MacDonald: You mean to tell me you found no other fingerprints of any aliens on any weapons or anything in that house?
Investigator: We didn't find any fingerprints, not even your bloody fingerprints on that telephone.
MacDonald: What do you expect me to say? That I used the phone? I told you I used the phone, and my hands were bloody. If you didn't find the fingerprints--
Investigator: It came from your wife's body and there was MacDonald lot of blood there.
MacDonald: Well, how do you explain it? What do you--
Investigator: I know how I can explain it, but--(Inaudible)--
MacDonald: Well, what does it mean to you?
Investigator: Well--
MacDonald: You are making a big point out of it. What does--
Investigator: Well, it could mean that your hands were washed.
MacDonald Look, when I got to the hospital, my hands were still bloody.
Investigator: Or that you have surgical gloves on. Somebody had surgical gloves on.
MacDonald: Then how did I get blood all over my hands? And not on the phone? I mean I don't understand where you are leading. You are saying--you are talking in circles and not--
(Pause)
Investigator: So, as Mr. Shaw said, he said maybe you didn't do it, but you are not telling us exactly what you do know happened.
So by not telling me, you must have your reasons for not telling me.
MacDonald: Look, Mr. Grebner, what I told you is what I remember from that night; and that's the truth, now really--that's--I'm not covering up for anybody.
If someone killed my wife and daughters, you can be assured I wouldn't be covering up for them. You can rest assured of that fact.
All I can say to you is that--ah--you know, maybe things weren't exactly as I said, simply be-cause of the excitement, but I told you what I know.
In other words, there are some minor details that--people in other rooms, I don't know about; and there are some minor details, that maybe are a little hazy and confused, but the gist of what happened is what I told to the best of my abilities, and that's all I can say. I mean I don't--I don't know any more, and the rest of it is pure bullshit.
What--what--possibly could I have gained from this? I mean what--Jesus Christ--what would
I have gained by doing this?
(Pause)
(Photographs were handed to Captain MacDonald .)
MacDonald: She looks familiar, but--Judy--the nose looks familiar. She looks familiar but I don't know who she is. The other girl I don't know. Oh, I--it looks like MacDonald girl I knew in San Antonio.
Investigator: You know her?
MacDonald: Here name isn't Judy though, is it?
Investigator: (Inaudible)
MacDonald: She's a nurse. I was with her one night; did not have intercourse with her. No big deal.
She wrote me one letter, and I ripped it up and threw it away. (Pause) That's her.
You are more thorough than I thought.
Investigator: Huh?
MacDonald: You're more thorough than I thought. That was a--that was a--very unmemorable one-day thing. You guys have gone on some mild stuff in calling--in calling me a family murderer.
Investigator: Don't read into this into this, but would you be willing to take a polygraph test if it comes to this?
MacDonald: Absolutely--sure, let me ask you a few questions here, man. ah--you guys have been posing all the questions.
Investigator: Well, that's our job.
MacDonald: What's the--what's the fallibility of this thing? You know you guys with your circumstantial evidence here, you know--ah--what happens with normal emotions?
Investigator: That's taken into consideration, of course. When people are challenged there is some nervous tension.
MacDonald: And in a case like this, ah, there's a little more nervous tension than usual.
Investigator: Absolutely. Murder is much more serious than stealing an M-16 or something.
MacDonald: I'm just trying to--ah--prevent--ah--any more things like this, that's all. I can see what's going if there is a little jig in the line. You and the Colonel are going to jump and say ah-hah, we found our man.
Investigator: The Colonel won't be reading the charts. The man will probably come out of Washington, and are very competent and is a disinterested party. He be disinterested and won't care how it comes out. (Inaudible)
MacDonald: What does the polygraph tell you?
Investigator: It tells basically what a person believes to be true.
MacDonald: How infallible is it?
Investigator: Well, the instrument itself just measures physiological changes.
MacDonald: I know that, I understand that, that's what I mean.
Investigator: The operator--you see it's just one man now. He runs the test and he read his charts, then he makes the determination. There are three possibilities; no deception indicated, deception indicated or inconclusive, or sometimes a person may not be a good subject, that day he might be over tired or something like that.
MacDonald: um-hum.
Investigator: So the operator, rather than--when he reads his tracings he may come-up with an inconclusive, for some reason or another, and maybe something else is bothering the individual more than what you are talking about. So he may come-up with inconclusive. The percentage figures they have had on it is that it is less than one percent that they have ever made a mistake on. I mean these are verified cases.
MacDonald: A mistake which way?
Investigator: Surprisingly, these were all saying a person had no deception indicated. This is on thousands and thousands of cases. These are the statistics that I have. The greatest percentage of people, by far, probably up in the 75 to 80 percent, there's no deception indicated.
MacDonald: 75% of the 1% who-- ah--
Investigator: 75%--say it's about four-tenths of a percent there may be deception indicated.
MacDonald: uh-hah--
Investigator: And perhaps 20% would be deception indicated.
MacDonald: You mean proves deception indicated.
Investigator: These are on the verified cases, in other words, where confessions or admissions are obtained later. You've got 80 people who didn't, and it is later verified by--
MacDonald: That they didn't do it.
Investigator: --confessions or something, or someone else is sought later.
MacDonald: But you aren't answering my question. Out of those 100 people, how many are wrong on the machine?
Investigator: How many are wrong?
MacDonald: Yeah?
Investigator: I would say that the human error involved is about four-tenths of one percent.
MacDonald: Oh, that's all?
Investigator: Yes.
MacDonald: Sounds pretty good.
Investigator: And these people, in those four-tenths, which would be four, is one thousand were called no deception indicated, and it was later found out that they were deceiving.
MacDonald: Oh, I see. Okay.
Investigator: You might call them inconclusive, where a person wouldn't take the test at a later date, and then later confessed.
MacDonald: Now what happens if this test--what is your strongest evidence? What if the polygraph backed up everything I've said and you still have all the bull shit lying around, and then what happens?
Investigator: I will be the first guy to shake you by the hand and say I'm sorry.
MacDonald: And if it comes up wrong I immediately go to Leavenworth without a trial.
Investigator: No, in the first place, polygraph can't be used against you.
MacDonald: It can't?
Investigator: No. It is an investigative tool, Captain. We believe it.
MacDonald: You mean it is not admitted in court? Why not?
Investigator: Because of that four-tenths of one percent. Here's the real problem. There are several reasons--
MacDonald: It is not admitted in court for that? Jesus, the alcohol, the alcohol--
Investigator: We have other reasons too. We have judges in the court, sitting on the court with a jury, and it shouldn't be admitted because they wouldn't know how to evaluate this type of evidence as compared to other evidence. If you went into juries and said, well, there was deception indicated during the polygraph examination, they would overweigh that evidence, so that's why primarily it can't be used in court.
MacDonald: So if I take this polygraph test and it comes out okay, then I can--ah--you people will feel real nice towards me then? Right?
Investigator: As I said, if it comes out no deception indicated, I'll say I'm sorry I bothered you.
MacDonald: Sounds pretty good to me. What's measured on this? Heart beat, perspiration, blood pressure?
Investigator: Perspiration--all that goes into it. Blood volume.
MacDonald: Blood volume?
Investigator: Blood volume.
MacDonald: Really? Wonder how that works.
Investigator: This is the terminology used.
MacDonald: Do you have to put an arterial needle in?
Investigator: No, it is just the volume of blood and pulse rate as it goes through your--
MacDonald: Arteries.
Investigator: And then what they call galvanic skin resistance. This is basically what causes the machine to resist.
MacDonald: Jesus!
Investigator: Changes caused by the galvanic skin resistance.
MacDonald: So if a person sweats a little bit, he's had it, huh?
Investigator: Oh, no.
MacDonald: You see I've done a little medical research, you know, and I know how these things--ah--come out 92% and for the sake of the paper it is 95%, and when you go into the meeting and present the paper it is 98%, and reality the 92% was never really honest to begin with. I'm not saying this is the case with this. I've just seen a lot of medical research, and most of this stuff that is taken as gospel is not gospel at all.
Investigator: Well, there's been a great deal of thought--
MacDonald: I'm sure there has on this. Does the FBI use this?
Investigator: Yes.
MacDonald: The FBI feels the way you people do about this?
Investigator: It is not just this one operator, you know. When he finishes and gives his determination, this is checked.
MacDonald: Subject to review.
Investigator: Subject to review, right.
MacDonald: You mean I have to go through this procedure many times?
Investigator: No, you don't have to.
MacDonald: Oh, you mean the results of the readings?
Investigator: In other words he sits down and makes a determination of his charts--
MacDonald: What do they do? Have a recording of the questions and answers at the same time they have the tape running along, and that's how they check it later?
How long does it takes?
Investigator: It will take, the actual running of the paper, the chart itself on each test, approximately five minutes, basically, they will try to hold it down to a short time. So, if you are willing to take it I will call and make arrangements.
MacDonald: Why not? When is this going to be done?
Investigator: You realize you don't have to.
MacDonald: Yes, no problem, bring it on; I'm ready.
Investigator: Okay, we will set it up, we have to get our people here.
MacDonald: You mean you don't have them here all ready?
Investigator: No, Captain MacDonald , it has to be arranged. I'll have to call them--within the next day or two.
MacDonald: You mean someone is going to fly down here to do this?
Investigator: Probably tonight.
MacDonald: I thought I'd walk in here today and you'd slap some electrodes on my forehead and it would be done.
Investigator: So, if you will photograph the Captain---take a seat over here, I'll see about the test.
MacDonald: For what reason am I being photographed?
Investigator: We just have to have photographs.
MacDonald: You have to have a photograph of me?
Investigator: un-hum
MacDonald: For what reason?
Investigator: Well, as far as I am concerned, right now you are a suspect---
MacDonld: Right. I understand that.
Investigator: So we have to have a photograph of suspects.
MacDonald: Oh. I suppose I'll be reading tomorrow that Captain MacDonald is taking the polygraph test sent out by the U.S. Army Post Information Agency.
You've got some real great people walking around this office.
Investigator: What?
MacDonald: You've got some real great people working over in this office.
Investigator: What? The Information Office?
MacDonald: Yep.
Investigator: We don't have much contact with them.
MacDonald: Everything I've told you guys is in the paper. You have to come in some kind of contact with them. You know what I mean?
Confidential interrogation and all that.
Investigator: This polygraph we are talking about, it will only help you, it can't hurt, because it can't be presented in court, and like we said--
MacDonald: No mention of the polygraph can be made in court?
Investigator: The element to mention that can be made is--
MacDonald: I wasn't aware of this. I had no idea that was true.
Investigator: The element that can be discussed, if it is discussed, is if the direct question is asked--did you--well, not you--but was a polygraph examination conducted. It can be answered yes or no, it was conducted, or no, it wasn't conducted.
In fact, they--don't--the court system now days don't discuss this.
MacDonald: They don't what?
Investigator: They don't discuss it at all.
It is an investigative tool.
Investigator: As he was saying, if it comes back conclusive no deception indicated then we trust it enough to say to ourselves, all right, let's forget this thing, and stop pursuing this line of investigation.
MacDonald: You mean to tell me that--that's never wrong? I find that's hard to believe, just from any instrument.
Investigator: Not never wrong. The machine itself is probably never wrong.
It is as good as any machine can be. It is simple.
MacDonald: No, I understand that, but I mean don't--you mean to tell me there aren't some people that resist and it is wrong--you follow me?
Their blood pressure changes, or their respiration changes, and it doesn't prove me guilty of a crime. I just find that hard to believe.
Investigator: There are people. I've known people who've had the test and said I beat the machine, but these tests are something that isn't important to a man, and they don't just put you on a machine--they don't hook you up to this thing and say (Inaudible)
MacDonald: No. It is an interrogation technique--
Investigator: Right.
MacDonald: Probably is the skill of the guy that's doing it, right?
Investigator: Sure, it's got to be. That's why, if he runs a test here for us, it is immediately sent up to Washington, or it goes to Third Army, where it it isn't (Inaudible)--it is reviewed and you know, between these people they come up with a pretty good answer.
MacDonald: I just--ah--I don't lie the--ah--so much emphasis placed on what looks to me pretty superficial things--that's the only thing I'm scared of, to perfectly honest with you.
I mean it seems to you that you guys have some pretty mild stuff and calling me a family murderer.
MR. SHAW: Well, If I comment about this, you'll jump on me just like you did before, when you accused me of using the Mutt and Jeff routine; and I don't want to be in that position.
MacDonald: No, I'm just--I'm not asking, you know--it's just--ah--that's my own feeling in the matter right now that it looks a little dangerous to me, because that--ah--ah-Jesus, that looks--ah--like pretty minor stuff and ah--in my own mind I can explain it very easily, you know, and not feel bad about it--if you know what I mean.
If I was investigating, I would say, Jesus, so the table--so the table is top-heavy, what if her leg was against it when it went over.
You know, it just--it doesn't seem to me to be ah--that ah--you call a person in and say ah--take what's left from him, something like that.
It just don't hold any water. And there's not much left, I mean--Jesus Christ!
Investigator: Well, in the event--as you know, just from--just from this--just this stuff, there's been a lot of stuff, a lot of work on this; and we've had every major CID office in the continental United States working on every aspect, and it's--it's just not there, Captain MacDonald. Those people you saw can't be found anywhere. People like them? Yes, there have been--I won't say arrest--but there have been thousands of detentions all over the country, here and there--
MacDonald: Okay, two possibilities--one, they haven't been found yet--
Investigator: Yep.
MacDonald: --and two, they have already been questioned and have answered the questions satisfactorily. Now, isn't that possible? I mean certainly--certainly, in a lot of cases, your best team wasn't on every on every person, if you know what I mean. I'm not implying or any-thing about individuals, but--
Investigator: That's true.
MacDonald: If you have every office in the country working and every FBI, it is perfectly conceivable that these people have already been questioned and what's needed now is a break, a lucky thing. You know--a lady said ah--goes--I used to know a girl and she always said things like that when she comes home looking funny when she was staying at that boarding house--you know--something like that. You know what I mean? You luck into it.
And maybe I'm just--you know--I'm hoping for a miracle, but it just seems to me that-ah--
Investigator: It isn't inconceivable.
MacDonald: Yes. I mean I've--I've--you know, I've read things where ah--you have questioned people (Inaudible) and it comes back at the end that they questioned him some and he gave satisfactory answers and that was it.
I mean--you know--they had a place or a time or--ah--no motive or whatever, and ah--it's a big country and a lot of people in it.
Investigator: That's right.
MacDonald: As you know better than I do, try to find someone.
Investigator: Not always easy, but our success rate is good.
MacDonald: I hope so. What happens if I am one of the some who has a little--ah--a little more seating on these answers? Then what happens? Then you guys gotta put the thumbscrews on me for the rest of my life.
Investigator: That is why I made the comment to you awhile ago; there's been a lot thought go into this machine.
MacDonald: Uh-huh.
Investigator: There's been a lot of though go into the techniques of using the machine, and before he gives you the test--I shouldn't explain this to you because I'm not a qualified operator--
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: But I've watched the test many times. He will know how you will react in a give situation.
MacDonald: Uh-huh--I see.
Investigator: There are some questions and control questions and you'll know exactly what he is going to ask you, before the actual test is taken--and if there is any doubt in his mind to his findings here, as he looks at them--
MacDonald: Does he know right away?
Investigator: --he'll try it again.
MacDonald: Does he know right away?
Investigator: They never make a judgment right away, no.
MacDonald: So after I take this thing--there'll be another six weeks of ah--lying around in the BOQ, and then I'll get a call saying every thing's okay
Investigator: It won't take six weeks.
MacDonald: Is this going to be released to the newspapers? Christ, I'll have my mother down here again any my in-laws, and--
Investigator: What do you mean-- is this going to be released to the newspapers?
We don't release these things to the newspapers.
MacDonald: Then it's always the Colonel.
Am I waiting for something else?
Investigator: Yes, we are waiting for Mr. Grebner to come back and tell us about this test.
MacDonald: Oh, he's calling?
Investigator: I assume he's calling.
Let me ask you something for my own edification about MacDonald Lt. Ron Harrison. What kind of relationship did you and your family have with this Ron Harrison? Lt. Harrison I think his name is.
MacDonald: He was a--well, as you know, he's an unusual type of guy.
Investigator: No, I don't know. I've never seen him before.
MacDonald Oh, well he--he--ah--I don't even know how I met him, to tell you the truth. I just met him around the group somehow.
And he's got an extremely, he's intelligent and he's very funny. He hides it. I mean he tries to hide his intelligence. He's--he's an old N.C.O., see, and he's very proud of that. He doesn't want to let on that he's been to college and that he reads poetry, you know, back in his room and stuff. So, he's an interesting guy.
He's very funny he's just--ah terrific at parties and stuff like that. And I just became good friends with him. It was off the cuff. This thing, you know, like kind of cemented it.
He was never my best friend or anything until this happened, and all of a sudden he--he--you know, he was around a lot. And he was always there and always helping my mother and stuff like that, but--and I tell you, in the last couple of weeks, ah-- he's great to have around.
He's always ready to take me for a beer or somewhere to a movie together or go out and eat or something, you know, but ah--
But--he's a little morbid. He's got a terrific desire to--I mean he came back into the Army.
He was in the Army and left, went to college and he came back in with the avowed purpose of shooting people, you know.
And they made him a rigger, and he went in and banged on [the] desk and was yelling and screaming that he likes to shoot people, and I kind of think he's funny. I mean, he's ah--he doesn't scare me the way he scares some people.
Like at a party, he had a little bit too much to drink, he has a lot of buddies who are dead, and he always got to talking about them. But I don't--I don't ever listen when he gets--ah-- melancholy. I just like him 'cause he's funny. He's such a ball of fire.
He's at some school right now, some secret school, up in Washington--up in Virginia or Washington. He makes a big mystery out of everything. You know, he'll go up there and whenever you mention the CIA, he goes sh-sh-sh, you know. He play-acts a lot.
Investigator: Is he still MacDonald rigger?
MacDonald: No, they put him in charge of an "A" team in 6th group because he was banging on desks.
And actually, I'm sure, in the weeds he terrific, you know. I mean he's that kind of a guy.
He's just--he's a loner and he's hard, and he likes to get out and command a small detach-ment, you know, and do that kind of a job. He's on his way to 'Nam.
Investigator: Has he--had have a tour over there yet?
MacDonald: No. Well, he's been somewhere. He won't tell anybody where it is. It's all part of his game.
Investigator: An NCO?
MacDonald: Yeah, he just--you know, he's--he talks about the Bolivian mountains--then he talked about some of the Laotian projects, you know, I don't know if it was picked up or he was there. He'd never let you know. You know--one of these guys. I have a sneaking suspicion that if you really get down to it, he's probably never been anywhere and that he's garnered this; that he's very, you know, intelligent.
He picks up all this from other people and kind of blends it in with his war stories.
But I think--in my own mind, I think that he's probably never really been where it's at, you know. I think that--he's taken Ranger School and made a big deal out of that, and now it sounds as though he's--
Investigator: He wants to go real bad.
MacDonald: Yeah, but he'd come over for dinner, you know. We had him over every two or three weeks for dinner, that was it. Nothing--nothing spectacular.
Investigator: Did he ever bring a friend with him? Girlfriend or--
MacDonald: Yeah, he has a girl up in Ohio. My wife never met her. She just came in a few weeks ago, and I met her for the first time. He dates occasionally, but he's kind of a loner and he sticks with this one girl up in Ohio.
They have kind of a, you know, unusual relationship. I mean he told her that--that maybe he'll get married and maybe he won't; and she's perfectly happy to sit around and wait, you know. He's not really a family type guy.
I mean he tells her that, "I'm going to go in the weeds and shoot people, and I might not come back." And she just accepts all that very nicely.
Lately, he's kind of become my best friend, you know, because he's always around. He lives in the BOQ. It wasn't that way before.
Investigator: Have you been taking any medication in the last few days or few weeks?
MacDonald: A couple Tetracyclines, cold tablets, stuff like that.
Investigator: Nothing for your emotions, nerves, tranquilizers?
MacDonald: Sleeping pills.
My mother kept trying to get me on tranquilizers. She gave me a couple, but I'm afraid of them.
Sleeping pills mostly
Investigator: What kind of sleeping pills?
MacDonald: Seconal.
Investigator: The polygraph examiner will need to know that.
MacDonald: Why is that?
Investigator: Well, because this is changes in your pulse rate, and if you have--ah--saying you have been taking tranquilizers--
MacDonald: Keeping everything in check.
Investigator: Yeah, then you wouldn't have the same reading as otherwise.
Especially if the operator didn't know it. The operator has to know if you've been taking tranquilizers, barbiturates or other drugs as they can take this into consideration
(Long Pause)
MacDonald: Taking a long time. I think Mr. Grebner needs some tranquilizers the way his hands shakes. Is it e-b? Is that right? Greb?
Investigator: Yes.
MacDonald: I thought it was a-u-b.
Investigator: It might have been at one time. He is an American (Inaudible)
In fact I think he told us at one time that it was change from (Inaudible), which would make it German.
You ever been to Europe?
MacDonald: No.
Now, what effect does questions like, you know--I told them I didn't recognize that wood, and they tell me that wood is definitely from my house?
Now, if they ask me on that lie-detector test--do you recognize that wood--what am I supposed to say? Yes, I do, but I've been told I'm supposed to, or no--
Do you know what I mean?
Investigator: Yeah, I know what you mean.
MacDonald: You see--ah--Jesus, this scares me.
I tell you what--I don't like that.
Investigator: You'll find that you'll have--this operator, whoever he is, he'll tell you--Captain, I don't know anything about this case, accept what I've told.
MacDonald: Yea, but that's what I'm trying to tell you.
Investigator: (Inaudible) ...interview he'll formulate his questions, that he's going to ask you, and probably--probably it won't be more than five or ten at the most. They will be very specific--very specific questions, and he'll tell you what those questions are, before he ask them.
There's no surprise--no surprise.
MacDonald: I thought they went along and talked, asked you about your name and age, and all this and did you kill your wife--you know.
You mean he gives you a list of the questions ahead of time?
Investigator: Oh, verbally.
MacDonald: Verbally.
Investigator: He'll say, I'm to ask you--ah--for an example, again, I'm not a qualified operator.
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: He'll say--ah I'm going to ask you if you are in the United States Army; and I'm going to ask you--ah--if you are wearing a tee sheet. I'm going to ask you if you were actually asleep, or if you were lying on the couch and saw a number of intruders--
MacDonald: Uh-huh.
Investigator: And I'm going to ask you if you are presently sitting down in the chair.
MacDonald: Uh-huh.
Investigator: And then I'm going to ask you another specific question, and they'll be (Inaudible) here. So you'll will know the questions he will ask you, and he will tell you--ah--he'll probably give you a pre-test, if you like, and he'll tell you to write a number on a piece of paper. And you'll write on the piece of paper a number one to ten, and he'll say I'm going to ask you if the number you've written on the piece of paper, which you know---
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: I think, personally, I think it's more to that, than it is this business about weighing the evidence. You know what I mean--that's my feelings.
MacDonald: I miss--I missed your point there.
Investigator: Well, a laboratory technician can tell you that this white unidentified powder is exactly the same as this this sugar.
MacDonald: Uh-huh.
Investigator: Exactly the same, therefore, that is sugar.
The polygraph examiner can tell you, I asked these questions and in my opinion--
MacDonald: Un-huh.
Investigator: --the subject was telling the truth. But it is tainted. It's like hand writing analysis, by comparison.
MacDonald: That isn't considered --ah--is that considered valid?
Investigator: That's valid.
MacDonald: Really?
Investigator: But now--now this is the breakdown in our judicial system--It is valid and a man can go to court and testify and say in my opinion--
MacDonald: The hand writing is the same?
Investigator: --the hand writing is the same. This person wrote that, and by the same token he can show you why, he can show you and I who know nothing at all about hand writing comparison--
MacDonald: But they can't say these things about a polygraph? It doesn't make any sense. I mean the polygraph seems like--ah--more scientific than hand writing analysis.
Investigator: Doctor, if you tell me I have something wrong with me, some disease, right, how far can you go to tell me why that all you are saying is true?
MacDonald: Well, it depends on how the diagnosis was made and what it is.
Investigator: What if I had spots in front of my eyes and instead of one thing, it is another?
MacDonald: Un-huh.
Investigator: Would--you would go into this extensively to find out why I had spots in front of my eyes, and--I don't think that you can tell me why you make this finial decision because you've had so many years of training behind you to come to this conclusion--
MacDonald: Uh-huh
Investigator: It's the same way with these people. They don't go to school for years and years, but they are trained for it.
It seems to me it is something like nine months--I'm not sure--maybe longer. And on top of that, these people are experienced investigators.
Like a fingerprint man will tell you--if he compares my fingerprints--he'll say that's Shaw's fingerprints.
MacDonald: Right. Is that a hundred percent?
Investigator: A hundred percent, but they have set an arbitrary figure off 122.
MacDonald: Yea, I've heard about that.
Investigator: One out of thirteen, one out of twelve. Or we just say 12. If it is less than 12, the fingerprint examiner will tell us as an investigator--
MacDonald: They match, but I won't come up in court--
Investigator: They match, but I won't testify.
MacDonald: I see.
Investigator: So I have to guide myself accordingly.
MacDonald: Yeah.
BY MR. IVORY:
Investigator: What did you do with the pony?
MacDonald: Gave it to Frank Moore--Captain Moore.
Investigator: Captain?
MacDonald He works in my office. He worked in my office. Now he's working for the center surgeon.
Investigator: What--what are you doing now? What job do they have you in?
MacDonald: Group surgeon.
Investigator: Group surgeon?
MacDonald: I just made it last week. I was the P.M.--preventive medicine officer--and then I became group surgeon.
Investigator: What does that entail?
I guess that's kept you pretty busy.
MacDonald: Well, it's not like--ah--internship. you know this is--ah--eight to five.
Investigator: Yep.
MacDonald: Well, you know, I've got about eight physicians. We run a dispensary and some medical coverage in the field and take care of any medical problems for the group. Medical supplies are involved, you know, and planning and training physicians, training the medics.
Investigator: Administration job?
MacDonald: Right. Right.
Investigator: I guess, that's kept you pretty busy?
MacDonald: It's not like internship. You know what I mean. This is eight to five.
Investigator: Yeah.
MacDonald: And it's easy work. It's not hard. It gets boring.
BY MR. SHAW:
Investigator: Interns, it seems to me--I don't know. I don't know much about this, but don't interns work some real funny shifts, like 36 hours on and--
MacDonald: That's what I worked--36 on and 12 off.
Investigator: For how long?
MacDonald: For a year. That's what I said. I've already been through the hard years.
Investigator: Why do they drive interns so hard?
MacDonald: I don't know. It's an old antiquated system and "If I did it, you are going to do it." It is starting to change now with the more militant people coming. I don't--I don't like militant people, but they are doing some good things.
And one of them is that these people are refusing to do that. They are looking for intern-ships that you are on every fourth night--you know, it's reasonable. They can go home, see your family. But it hadn't been that. It's always been this ridiculous work week, 100 hours.
That's considered nothing.
Investigator: Are you completely finished with your training?
MacDonald: Well, I can go be a G.P. now. But if I want to specialize, I have to go back. I have a residency at Yale for orthopedic surgery.
Investigator: What will--how many years will that take?
MacDonald: Four.
Investigator: Four years residency.
MacDonald: But you get paid; you are a doctor, you know. And I mean this is--(Inaudible)--going through a kind of apprenticeship and learning as militant, as an orthopedic surgeon.
And then when I come out of that, I'm a qualified orthopedic surgeon instead of being a G.P. But you get paid. It's not--it's not like being a student any more, so it's just part of being a doctor.
BY MR. IVORY:
Investigator: When you are an intern, you are more or less MacDonald student. Is that right?
MacDonald: Well no, you are a doctor. You have control of the patients and you are getting paid.
Investigator: But not like a residency.
MacDonald: Well, they are moving up. It used to be two thousand a year. Now in New York and Los Angeles is up to ten thousand. In the middle of the country, you know, it's still four or five thousand per year.
Investigator: How long is medical school?
MacDonald: Four years.
Investigator: Four years?
MacDonald: Internship is one and a residency, depending on what you want to do, anywhere from two to seven. That's at the college.
Investigator: So, you don't have to have a residency at all, if you don't--
MacDonald: No residency to be a G.P., right.
Investigator: That's after four years of college?
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: It must cost a tremendous amount of money.
MacDonald: It sure does. Ten thousand dollars in the hole. I'm going to start paying it back now.
Fortunately, I got the federal loan so there is no problem, you know. I'll just be finishing my residency when they start to come due, and I have ten years to pay them off. So that's nothing, you know. I mean, once I'm a physician, I'll be able to pay it off without any prob-lems.
Investigator: What do most people do? Do they get MacDonald federal loan or--
MacDonald: Yeah, well, it used to be that only wealthy people went into medicine. But when regular people go in now, then they always have to--they're (Inaudible). Every one of them. I mean you just can't do it otherwise.
You can't live in New York City on four thousand dollars if you have a family. By yourself you can't do, the minimum is considered ten for a family of four.
Investigator: I was in New York not too long ago and just about went broke.
MacDonald: It's unbelievable.
Investigator: Well, this is what these mailmen are talking about.
MacDonald: I mean--
Investigator: You take a guy out in Clinton, Oklahoma--
MacDonald: If he's making ten, he's doing all right.
Investigator: --He's doing fine.
MacDonald: Right.
Investigator: But the same guy in New York, it's--(Inaudible).
MacDonald: But as soon as they get a raise, someone raises the prices. It never ends. As soon as the military gets a raise, everything in Fayetteville goes up.
MR. SHAW: Usually, it's before the raise comes through.
Investigator: (BY MR. IVORY) Well, they've raised the prices in the P.X. and commissary, too. Have you had any contact with the Kassabs?
MacDonald: Just on the phone. Freddie calls me all the time and I call them. I called Mildred last week. She's not doing real well.
Investigator: What is the problem?
MacDonald: Just, you know, real--real--she--she wouldn't go out. She's in the house and you go stir crazy. I'm in my room one hour and I go out of my mind, so I got to go out. I go eat somewhere. I go watch a movie. Anything, you know, to get out.
But she won't leave the house. So she's just sat there with the walls closing in on her for six weeks now. She's just starting to get out now. She sounds like a zombie when you talk to her. Jesus.
Freddie went back to work, but he lost about twenty-five pounds.
Investigator: Was he out of work for a while?
MacDonald: Well, just when he was down here with--my father-in-law, he's not out of work, no.
Investigator: No, I mean did he deliberately stay away from work?
MacDonald: Just when he was here. He went back to work when he went back; but, apparently, he said it's been pretty hard to get back in the swing of it.
It's been hard for them--you know--it's--it's been hard for--all--all--of us.
Investigator: I'll see if I can find out what the holdup is.
Would you like another cup of coffee?
MacDonald: I've had plenty.
Investigator: Anything I can do for you to make you comfortable?
MacDonald: No, thanks, I'd like to have the polygraph test right now.
Investigator: Mr. Brisentine, from our (Inaudible) office at Fort (Inaudible) will be coming in tonight.
MacDonald: Okay.
Investigator: I guess it will up to him when he wants to conduct it. Probably tomorrow and possibly, the next day.
He'll have to review certain things and get some knowledge of what occurred in the house there, and we'll get in touch with you again.
Well I think we have covered all we need at this time. We will notice you when the polygraph has been arranged.
MacDonald: Okay. Is that it?
Investigator: Yep.
MacDonald: Okay.
(End of the meeting.)
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