1974-1975 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPT
January 16, 1975: William Ivory, CID (Testimony, Walk-through
the crime scene with Grand Jurors and answered questions)
I, Mary H. Ritchie, being a Notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, William F. Ivory, before the Grand Jury, at 544 Castle, Ft. Bragg, Fayetteville, North Carolina, commencing at 3:30 p.m. on January 16, 1975. All Grand Jurors were present with the exception of Samuel Cannady who was permanently excused by the Judge.
WILLIAM F. IVORY, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Mr. Ivory, you understand that your testimony at this time is pursuant to the oath that was administered to you yesterday?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q On the night in question, was a person in this neighborhood unloading his automobile during the intervals of time, around two, three, or four o'clock in the morning?
A Yes, sir, there was.
Q Will you tell us about it? Where it was located and what you know about it?
A I cannot remember the name right now, maybe Chester, I'm not sure.
MR. STROUD: It is Chester.
A I am not sure of the house number but it's about a hundred meters west of here and the car was parked on the side of the street about a hundred meters west. He had come back from a trip and he was unloading his car at about -- again, I am drawing from my recollection -- about 3 o'clock or so.
MR. STROUD: And he was outside as I recall he said some half hour or forty minutes unloading his car.
A Yes. Had made several trips from the car. His house is not situated like this facing the street but it runs perpendicular to the street.
Q (By Mr. Woerheide) And he was questioned by CID agents?
A Yes, sir, he was.
Q And what did he have to say about what he observed on the street?
A He observed no traffic, no persons on foot, heard no sounds. It was a very normal, quiet night or morning.
MR. WOERHEIDE: I notice there are some kids outside. You can hear the noises in and out of the house here. There were several people walking above up too.
Q Mr. Ivory, is this the rug in the same relative position that it was when you first entered the house on the morning of February 17, 1970? (Indicating rug in the living room.)
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q How about the dining room rug?
A Yes, sir, approximately the same position.
Q And I wonder if you could locate the coffee table and the chair in the approximate position that you found them.
A It was easy to see after all this happened where the table was because the dimples it makes in the carpet. This, as you see, is a pretty heavy table. It is solid wood. The chair had been in this position by the window because of these creases that were in the carpet from continued use of the rocking of the chair and sitting from the legs. Also, the angle was approximately like this of the chair. The table was approximately like that. There was a pair of house slippers there by the leg of the table, in fact, resting on the leg, on the side of the leg.
There were magazines and newspapers and a child's game under the down edge of the coffee table and there was a child's drawing on just a plain piece of bond typing paper, I guess, which rested -- Now, let's see -- like this, something like this.
Without referring to photographs, that is as close as my recollection can bring me. To the coffee table.
Q Well, now, let's see if you can put the coffee table in the approximate location where those dimples were, where it had been sitting on those marks that have been left on the floor.
A The position of the dimples also goes along with MacDonald's summation of the table being a foot or so away from the edge of the couch.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Does anyone want to try flipping that?
FOREMAN: Put the magazines on the floor.
MR. WOERHEIDE: You want to put them on the floor?
MR. WOERHEIDE: We will put them on the floor.
Q (By Mr. Woerheide) How many magazines were there anyhow? I don't want to get too many. I don't want to get too few.
A There were six under this leg (indicating right leg).
Q Is this close to six?
A Yes. And on the other edge there was that box containing a child's punch-out game and a magazine.
Q It was under the edge?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that about right?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Does anyone want me to change these things? How about it, Mr. Epperson?
FOREMAN: I don't know.
MR. STROUD: Is it the approximate thickness of the magazines, what we have got down there now?
(At this time, the Foreman attempts to overturn table. It flips completely over on the top.)
MR. STROUD: Remove the magazines and let's see how it does that way.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's put the magazines on top.
JUROR: His testimony was that he had cleared the table so the kids could work on it.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's try it again.
(At this time, the Foreman attempts to overturn the table and it again turns completely over on the top.)
JUROR: Let me try it one more time.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Do you want anything on it?
JUROR: It makes no difference.
(At this time, Juror attempts to overturn the table. It flips completely over on the top.)
Q (By Mr. Woerheide) Mr. Ivory, I see there were marking on the wall. I see markings on the floor. I think there were probably some markings over here in the dining room area. I see on the door frame -- and I am sure when we get inside the kitchen and the other rooms we will see similar markings. Can you tell us about those?
A All of these markings, these little chips that are broken from the wall, were removed by probably Craig Chamberlain who, I believe, you met the other day or one of the other chemists from the laboratory team; they were outlined in this fashion so that they could be photographed. These initials are Robert B. Shaw, 19 February 70, and the number 112 corresponds with the laboratory exhibit number. And these markings were placed there when the exhibits were removed from the wall.
Q All right, is that darker powder on the wall and the other places in the premises is that fingerprint dusting powder?
A Yes, sir, it is.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Does anyone have any questions they want to ask Mr. Ivory?
JUROR: What kind of stains were taken off the wall?
A Food stains.
JUROR: Food stains?
A Yes, ma'am.
MR. WOERHEIDE: They tested many things that turned out not to be blood just to make sure, they had tested it.
A Anything that wasn't there when the house was built, we tried to take it off.
JUROR: Which way was his head laying according to his story?
A Here. (Indicating right end of the sofa.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: Do you want to explore the rest of the house?
JUROR: Where was the television?
A The television was over in there, in that corner.
MR. WOERHEIDE: If you want to get the pictures, you can see where the various items of furniture were.
There were cabinets over her (indicating dining room) and there was something there, if I recall. There was a purse on it.
JUROR: The flower pot, where was that laying?
MR. WOERHEIDE: I see some dirt here.
A That's where the root ball landed right there where the dirt spot is on the center of the rug.
MR. WOERHEIDE: The flowerpot itself must have been right about in here.
(Grand Jurors proceed to Kristen's room)
MR. WOERHEIDE: This is Kristen's room and where they cut these boards out is where the two bloody footprints were.
This is the bed where she was lying. In the photograph, it would have been approximately here where that big blob of Colette's blood was on the cover sheet. There were big blobs of O blood down here in this area which all shows up on the photograph.
Of course, there was some other furniture in the room along this wall and in the corner and so on and so forth. You can see the closets. There is still some furniture on this side.
This is Kimberly's room and the board that matches the board that was the club and which the club had originally been a part was one of the bed slats in here. They finally got around to examining the bed slats sometime in '71 and they found the piece of wood that matched.
JUROR: Up there is where the A blood spot was?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yes. #136, that's where it would be.
Q (By Mr. Woerheide) What was it you noticed in here (Indicating hall closet)?
A There were complete surgical kits in here with scalpels, retractors, the whole thing. There was quite an abundant supply of syringes; hypodermic syringes in there, reusable and disposable types; some barbiturates and tranquilizers; some amphetamines; pretty good pharmacy.
(Grand jury proceed to master bedroom)
JUROR: Mr. Ivory, that club, was it found in a place where it would fit on this bed anywhere?
A This leg is broken off. See. And this would have been about the same dimension if you were going to replace it. It's only a possibility.
Speaking of fibers, an interesting experiment is every time I come in here, I have gone through parts of the carpet and I have found more fibers. If you'd care to look, I wouldn't be surprised if you found some more.
This is a fiber here as compared to a seam thread here.
JUROR: Which one of the beds was it said that the club may have possibly come off of, this one?
A I'm sorry I didn't follow --
JUROR: I thought maybe the club came from one of the beds, the possibility, to help hold it up or something.
A Okay. If you see this foot off the bed or leg, if you want to call that thing that is on the outside of the bed here, it's missing here on the north side. This is facsimile of the club. It's of the dimensions of the club and it is compatible with that missing leg. So the possibility is --
I can't say. I can speculate perhaps but nothing more.
JUROR: Was this loose when you found it? (Indicating the bed frame)
A No. We took it apart.
JUROR: The reason I asked the question I know sometime during the testimony I heard it said that it come from the bed or the utility room where they kept paints or some possibility it could have come from the bed.
A It is the correct dimension to make up for the missing leg.
JUROR: Isn't there a bed slat made out of a piece the same size?
A Yes. If you will look in the closet, you will see a lot of scrap lumber. He was making his own shelves. And there was a piece of lumber about like this that was a bed slat for the bed in Kimberly's bedroom and we made or the laboratory made a match of growth rings.
JUROR: Isn't it also -- A club struck the ceiling in here someplace or another?
A Apparently it has been cut out because there was blood stain also. One of these here.
You can see the inscription on the bed here; the "PIG" is just about to fade out on us.
(At this time, the Grand Jurors proceeded to exist the apartment and walk around to the back of the apartment. After doing this, the Grand Jurors left the premises)