1974-1975 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPT
January 15, 1975: Janice Glisson, CID Lab
I, Marie P. Currin, being a Notary Public and Court Reporter in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, Janice S. Glisson, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, commencing at 10:30 a.m. on January 15, 1975. All Grand Jurors were present with the exception of Juror Samuel Cannady who was permanently excused from all subsequent Jury duty by the Judge.
Whereupon, Janice S. Glisson, having been previously sworn, was recalled to the stand and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Mrs. Glisson, I have three photographs, and can you tell us what these photographs represent and identify them?
A This is --
Q (Interposing) Let me ask you -- let me ask you this: is this a photograph taken in the hall and which shows the entrance into the north bedroom and some blood marks on the floor?
A That's right.
Q Now, is this a footprint?
A This is a footprint of the right foot coming out of Kristen's room up here.
Q And what is the blood --
A Into the hall.
Q And what is the blood type on that footprint?
A This is type A.
Q Now, did you also check the spot that is in the -- pretty much in the middle of the hall?
A Yes, I did, and that's type AB.
Q And what is that?
A That's type AB.
Q Now is this another view showing the same footprint?
A Yes, it is.
Q And is that taken from inside the room looking out towards the hall?
A Yes, it is.
Q And is this photograph of another footprint which is to the north from the footprint that you previously described or identified?
A Yes, this is the room -- Kristen's room, and this is the left foot coming out of the room. This is a poorer stain than the better footprint which is down here.
Q All right, what was the results of your efforts to type that blood?
A I found the blood factor A which is an indication of type A or AB. It has to be one or the other.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, let's mark these as Glisson Exhibit 1, 2 and 3 of this date.
MR. STROUD: They're marked on the back, previously.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Were they marked yesterday?
MR. STROUD: They were marked by Ivory.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, let's refer to them by Ivory's previous numbers. The first one which she identified is Ivory Exhibit 22. The second one she identified doesn't have an Ivory number. And the third which she identified as Ivory Exhibit 23.
So, we'll give this one Glisson number 1 of this date.
(GLISSON EXHIBIT 1 JANUARY 15, 1975, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: Do you all have any questions about -- Mrs. Glisson was the one who was in charge of the blood examination.
As you know, yesterday I was particularly interested in certain items of physical evidence which you'll hear additional testimony about, but do you have any questions at this time that you would like to ask her about laboratory procedures, and how they type blood, analyze blood, or anything else?
FOREMAN: I have one question, Mrs. Glisson. How were the samples of those footprints brought to you?
A These, I believe, were cut out.
FOREMAN: Both of them?
A I believe they were, yes.
FOREMAN: So no one attempted to take any type of sampling of the blood. They actually brought you the footprint itself cut from the floor boards?
A I believe so, the best I can remember.
What happened, they were -- the footprints were examined at the scene, and fingerprints did their part before we did ours. But they did not hurt the blood in any way with the fingerprint powder or anything like that before we examined them.
FOREMAN: Unh-hunh, but you got the whole thing in tact?
A As far as I remember.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Well --
A (Interposing) I'm not sure of that now. I'd have to look through my notes to be sure.
Q Well, I'm trying to recall myself --
A (Interposing) But many little parts of the floor are cut out.
Q I know this was cut out. But I'm trying to remember whether or not that one in fact was cut out, and I just don't recall.
I know this one was, but you'll have an opportunity to make your own findings --
A Yes, you'll see.
Q In that respect when you go down there. Well, if there's a hole in the floor, well it's out. And when you get down there, you'll see that -- that certain marks were placed in the -- on the floor boards themselves to -- they were numbered one, two, three, four, five, six, or lettered A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And for purposes of precisely reconstructing the thing eventually, and things of that sort, if necessary.
Well, if Mrs. Glisson is catching a plane out of town right after lunch, so if you have any other questions, or if you don't have any other questions --
JUROR: Yeah, I have one. How much blood is required to make a positive identification?
A Not very much. Maybe three fibres would do it.
JUROR: In other words, what could pick up on a pin would be sufficient?
A Well. Maybe a little more than that.
A The procedure that's used is that if you have a blood crust, now, when we're dealing with footprints, with these footprints on wood, what would happen in this instance, we would scrape a little bit of the blood off, and we would do a procedure using the blood crust on slides.
Then we would take the remaining part of that blood crust and soak it in gauze, maybe four or five fibres, small fibres, half an inch, and soak that in gauze and do the remaining portion of the blood typing on that.
So there's a check and balance on the blood typing, and we'll get both the blood factor and the antibodies from the crust procedure.
And that is what was done on this in six -- six times, four different places, and they were repeated on this footprint here.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Now, we do have a diagram of the house with -- with indication of where certain blood types were found, and Mrs. Glisson has checked over that diagram.
Maybe before she leaves, before we excuse her, I'll bring it in and let her identify it.
(Mr. Woerheide leaves the room and returns with a diagram of the house which shows location of different blood types in various rooms.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Mrs. Glisson, this is a diagram of the apartment, and it presents an indication of where various types of blood were found, and my question is, whether you have checked over what is presented on this diagram so far as the blood is concerned, and whether you can verify that this is an accurate representation?
A Yes, I have.
Q I'm particularly interested this time in -- among others, of -- let's say the fact that this paring knife is type A. There's definite type A on this knife.
Do you recall the ice pick, whether there was sufficient blood on there to type it, or whether --
A (Interposing) There was insufficient blood to type. We found human blood.
Q And virtually the only places where any B was found was here in the bedroom, at the sink and the stepladder, here on the linen closet, and a spot here in the hall, and here in the vicinity of the sink, is that correct?
A That's right.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Well, any other questions of Mrs. Glisson? (No response) Then we shall proceed with --
JUROR: (Interposing) Was any blood samples in the living room, ma'am?
A There was a small speck of type O on the right lens of the eye glassed, found right here. There were -- it was one other smaller speck on the floorboard, is that right?
MR. WOERHEIDE: There was a small speck that was so minute it could not be typed. All they could say was that it was blood.
Actually, it could have -- it could have gotten on the floor from contact of the eye glasses. In other words, a little bit came off the eye glasses onto the floor, but not enough to type it.
A Now, this -- the -- this is an Esquire magazine, and on the outside (indicating on the diagram) edges there was blood stain on the outside pages to the magazine, and I found the blood factor A which is an indication of A or AB.
It was sufficient for the cross Crust test to pick up the antibodies.
JUROR: In the kitchen by the phone, was the AB and A on the floor or where?
A There at the entrance.
JUROR: Yes, there at the entrance to the kitchen.
A Unh-hunh (yes). I see what you mean
FOREMAN: It was on the floor. There's a photograph that showed that.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yeah, there's a smear of blood on the floor there we have a photograph of. Maybe Ivory can tell us a little more about that.
A It was on the floor plans, do you mean?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yeah.
FOREMAN: Mrs. Glisson, I have a question. Is there a process under which you can tell the aging of the blood spots and whether it had been there or whether it was a recent deposit, or whether it had been there for three months, say?
A No, there isn't any procedure. We have an indication of the age of the stain from the appearance of the stain. If the stain is a black -- black-reddish look, you would consider that an old stain.
If it's more of a red, it's a newer stain, but that's the only way. And from also deterioration of some of the blood factors, if the stain is very old, we won't pick up the blood factors very well.
FOREMAN: Could you testify that most of this blood that was typed here was deposited at approximately the same time?
A No, I couldn't say that.
FOREMAN: Let me ask you this --
A (Interposing) I couldn't say that with any certainty. I know we did find some blood stains on some shoes that I felt were old stains.
But they were --
FOREMAN: (Interposing) Unh-hunh, but are there any other areas that you can bring to mind now that you can classify as being older stains?
A No, that was the only one that I felt was an old stain.
FOREMAN: There was a number of items of locations of blood, I think, on the kitchen washer, and around the walls, and places of this nature, and also in the hall, that seemed to be of such a smear quantity that it could not -- that it could be identified as human blood.
FOREMAN: But you don't have any feeling as to the age of that?
A I have a feeling that it's not an old stain.
FOREMAN: Well, what --
A (Interposing) Usually the newer stains are more soluble. They will wipe off easier than an old stain, and we found that out.
FOREMAN: On an AB blood stain, how long does it take the blood factor to start deteriorating?
A I can't say for sure. It depends on the -- whatever it's on. But I would say a stain would be good for at least three months.
FOREMAN: Three months. Unh-hunh.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Well, actually --
A (Interposing) It depends on --
Q Isn't it possible to identify blood actually that's years old?
A Oh, yes, yes.
Q Now, I have been told that you can take blood from Egyptian mummies and type it.
A I know that they can do the precipitant test to see if it's human that long.
A I don't know about the blood typing, but we have typed certain -- certain blood for maybe over a year.
FOREMAN: Mrs. Glisson --
A Unh-hunh (yes).
FOREMAN: The blood that you have typed that you said had the B factor for deteriorating, or an A with the possible B factor for deteriorating; does this mean that the -- that that B factor would begin to deteriorate, could it be an old stain?
A No, the only reason is that -- when we say that is that we found the A factor. We did not get the antibody to back it up.
So, we have to say it's A or AB. But it's most likely to be A, so whenever you see an A or an O, it's more likely to be the A, --
A When you read these reports, because there's always that possibility that something could have happened to it, but it's more likely not to.
FOREMAN: The ones you definitely identified as being AB had enough B factor that you could positively identify it?
A Yes, yes.
FOREMAN: Thank you.
FOREMAN: Anyone else? Mr. Stroud?
MR. STROUD: No, sir.
FOREMAN: You've very informative, Mrs. Glisson, thank you very much.
A Yeah, I'm just wondering if they know how the blood is -- the different types and when I'm talking about blood factors and antibodies and how they coincide, do you understand what I'm talking about, because it's very important?
FOREMAN: Go ahead.
(Witness goes to the easel board.)
A You want me to do it?
A Maybe with a blackboard or something to write on, you'll understand it better, and then you'll understand our reports better.
MR. WOERHEIDE: We'll get you a clean sheet of paper and a pencil, and you can give us you elementary course on blood typing.
A Do you think I should?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yes, I think you should. I'm very happy that we've aroused their interest in this. Please do.
A All right, well, we'll put down -- (witness writes on board) -- here, the blood factor and the antibody.
The blood factors are found on the red cells. The antibodies are found in the serum or the plasma.
So you have two things, blood factor and antibodies that you find in blood. (Witness writes on board.)
Okay and these are the types over here. Type A, you find a blood factor A and you find anti B.
In type B, we find the blood factor B. We find the Anti A.
And blood factor -- type O, you don't find any blood factor. However, there is a substance which we pick up which is H. And we find Anti A and Anti B.
And the type AB, we find AB blood factor and don't find any antibodies.
So when -- when you read the report and see -- sometimes we say type A or AB, means that we have found the blood factor and we haven't found any antibodies to have to check and balance on ourselves to do this type A. And so we have to say it's A or AB with deterioration or non-detectable amounts of B to be picked up. But knowing that these stains are probably fresh, it's probably A.
And that's -- that would be our opinion.
With a type O blood, we pick up both of these factors, and I know it's type O. Now, occasionally in the report you'll see we have picked up A, -- a mixture -- a mixture of A and O. In that case, I've picked up the blood factor A and also anti A and Anti B. So it has to be a mixture of type A and O.
Any questions? Do you understand?
JURORS: Unh-hunh (yes). (Nods affirmatively.)
FOREMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Thank you very much, Mrs. Glisson.
A Unh-hunh (yes).