Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970--Volume 14

Mr. William Posey; Mr. Robert Stern; Mr. Alfred Kassab; Mr. John Sutton; Mrs. Barbara Daw; CW2 Roy C. Daw 

ARTICLE 32
VOLUME 14


(The hearing reconvened at 0900 hours, 13 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties present at the recess are apparently in the hearing room.  Proceed, counsel.

MR. SEGAL:  Colonel Rock, there were two matters pertaining to yesterday’s proceedings I would like to make some request on, one matter pertaining to today’s proceedings.  One I would like to ask at this time as to whether the government has available to it all copies--copies of all statements that Jan Snyder made to any investigators who might--if we may see that, to see if we have any need for them today.

COL ROCK:  Can you respond to this, Captain Somers?

CPT SOMERS:  I think I said before, sir, that there are no written statements.  There is a mimeograph form which I will be able to provide sometime this morning.

COL ROCK:  Fine, and please let us have that expeditiously when it does become available.

MR. SEGAL:  Secondly, sir, in regard to the testimony of Doctor Sadoff yesterday, and the forthcoming examination that is being planned for Captain MacDonald at Walter Reed Hospital, it has occurred to us that it would be useful and desirable and very frequently the practice, to have Doctor Sadoff’s testimony available, to include his conclusions, findings and observa-tions, for the psychiatrists in Washington.  For that reason, I would ask that perhaps you might direct the out-of-order transcription of just Doctor Sadoff’s testimony so that could be available and sent forward to the authorities in Washington.  My own experience in this mat-ter has always been that psychiatrists like to have the observations of other doctors, be-cause it gives them another vantage point to make comparisons, and I think that’s certainly the--I think that they would want to know there’d been an independent examination, so they might review their own findings in regard to what doctor saw him at a different time and place and a different situation.

COL ROCK:  I will so order, with the caveat that these papers would be available to the in-dividuals after the government has made its own investigation.  In other words, that the gov-ernment’s investigation would not be the result of the consultation with Doctor Sadoff.  This will be so ordered.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time we are ready to proceed and call the next witness.  In regard to this witness, he is a civilian person who has agreed to testify, even though we have no pow-er to compel him to be here.  He has repeatedly expressed to us great concern that he not have his name bandied about, released in any way, or spread out to the public.  We have as-sured him on our part, in behalf of those civilian counsel and the accused and the military counsel, that we will absolutely honor that request.  His wife is quite anxious that he not come here because her fear is that it might produce some repercussions, and there are even indications of the fact that repercussions have taken place, because it was known or sus-pected he might be coming here.  I would ask also, sir, that you direct, although I am sure it will be a policy anyway, that all parties here honor the witness’s request not to in any way cause his name to be released to any person except in the sense the investigators have to be directed to do anything, that they be likewise told not to needlessly in any way expose this person to the knowledge of civilians or other persons who do not absolutely have a need to know his name or anything about him.

COL ROCK:  Sir, this is a closed hearing and to my knowledge the only information that has been released to anyone has been through your own efforts.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, I am just at this point suggesting that if the government would kindly recognize the problem and would advise its investigators to be cautious in regard to any mak-ing the identity of this person known, except as is absolutely necessary in their own investi-gative processes.  It would be, I think, muchly appreciated and be reassuring to the witness if we could do that, sir.

COL ROCK:  I am sure the government will adhere to that request.  Proceed, please.

MR. SEGAL:  Would you call Mr. Posey, please.

(William Edward Posey was called as a witness, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Posey, would you be good enough to state your full name and address for the record?
A  William Edward Posey, 505 Myrtle Street.
Q  Fayetteville, North Carolina?
A  Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Q  And your last name is spelled how?
A  P-o-s-e-y.
Q  Mr. Posey, where did you live in February of 1970?
A  1106 Clark Street, Apartment A in Haymount.
Q  Now is Haymount an area in Fayetteville, or is that separate?
A  It’s an area in Fayetteville.

COL ROCK:  1106 Clark?

WITNESS:  Clark Street, Apartment A.

Q  What was your employment in February of 1970?
A  I work for Bass Air conditioning.
Q  How do you spell that?
A  B-a-s-s.
Q  And where is that located?
A  Well, at that time their office was on the Boulevard; right now it is over by the Perulator Plant, but they still have the office on the Boulevard too.
Q  Now do you know where you were during the early morning hours of 17 February 1970?
A  I was home.
Q  Were you sleeping?
A  What time do you mean?
Q  You tell us.  Had you gone to bed that night at all?
A  Right.
Q  About what time did you go to bed?
A  I went to bed about eleven o’clock.
Q  Now you are talking about 11 p.m. on the night of 16 February?
A  Right.
Q  Did you have any occasion to become awakened or to awake on February 17th?
A  Well, about--sometime between a quarter to four and four-thirty, I didn’t look at the time, exactly what time it was, but I started to go to the restroom.  I heard a car next door whip in, you know, real fast.  There was this--

MR. SEGAL:  You’ll have to try and talk just a little slower for purpose of both clarity, under-standing what you are saying, and to enable the recorder to pick it up.  You tend to talk a little rapidly.  You say you went to the restroom?

A  I was fixing to get up to go to the restroom, and all of a sudden I heard a car whip in.  There was a lot of laughing and carrying on, so I walked around to my front door to see what was going on.
Q  And may I ask you, where did you hear the sound of the car from--was it from the street?
A  From my bedroom I heard it, you know, pull into the driveway real fast.
Q  That driveway was located between what properties?
A  Right between my house and the girls that lived in the apartment right across the fence.
Q  Are you referring to some girls that live in the adjoining building?
A  No, no, it’s--you can look out--their house is separate from mine.  It was directly across from our front door.
Q  And you say some girls.  Do you know the occupants of the apartment?
A  Well, I know them by, you know, just saying hello, and talking to them occasionally, but I mean I wasn’t associated, real good friends, or anything.
Q  Now what happened when you heard this sound of the car pulling into the driveway and the voices?  By the way, can you describe what the voices were saying or how they sound-ed?
A  No, they were just, you know, laughing, you know.  I didn’t pay any attention to what they were saying.  I don’t believe they were saying too much, really.  Just laughing, cutting up, giggling a lot.  This type of thing.
Q  Giggling a lot?
A  Yes.
Q  Could you indicate this to approximately how many voices there appeared to be?
A  Well, there was more than two, and there was more than two people in the car.  It was--it was a crowd.
Q  Now as a result of hearing that particular noise or those sounds, what did you do?
A  Well, I walked around to my front door to see what was going on, and I noticed that the lights were on in the apartment--in their apartment and I looked over there and two of the girls were in there painting, and then I saw--I looked up and I saw the car that was pulled in.  It was a Mustang, and the one girl got out, and the girl I know--
Q  Excuse me.  You said two girls were in the apartment painting?
A  Painting, yes.
Q  Are you indicating that there were more than two occupants in that apartment?
A  There were three.
Q  And was the third occupant also female?
A  They were all three females.
Q  All right, now where was this third female?
A  She was getting out of the car and walking into the house, and then the car pulled out and took off.
Q  Now, what, if anything, did you observe about her at that time?  Her appearance, dress.
A  Well, the only thing that I noticed about her, at least, I noticed it was her, and she had something in her hand, but I--I did not take note of what it was, but she walked kind of fast into her house.  She didn’t walk real fast, but faster than she usually walks.
Q  Now what did that young lady look like at that time?
A  She just looked like, you know, she didn’t look any certain way.  I didn’t--I just noticed it was her, because she didn’t have a hat or anything like that on at that time.  She had her--she has brunette hair, and I guess it was down to her shoulders.
Q  Now what, if anything, caused this episode to remain in your memory that caused you to pay any note to it?
A  Well, I had to get up, you know, pretty early to go to work and Gene, the man I work with, we were headed to Southern Pines, going through Fort Bragg, and he told me that there had been a murder out there that night, you know, several people had been killed, and so, when he told me this, you know, and he said it was by a band of hippies, you know, and I knew--it went through my mind then, you know, that she was out.  It was unusual for her to be out that, roaming around that time of the night, and it just stayed in the back of my mind. I just let it go there.
Q  All right now, would you describe for the investigating officer, the clothes or other para-phernalia that your neighbor wore, her normal habit, her normal wear?
A  Well, like before--

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that, as calling for a conclusion.  We have no basis for his being able to draw.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, if he wants to establish how long he’s observed the person, I’ll be glad to do that, although the government knows itself, but I’ll be able to do so.

CPT BEALE:  Establish it.

Q  Let me back up, if I may, Mr. Posey.  How long had you seen this gal around or known her, the one you are describing on this morning, that you saw getting out of the Mustang?
A  I’d seen her, you know, every day, when I would come home from work, and a lot at night, and probably, I think, they had lived there for two or three months prior to that, and I think I’d seen her once or twice in Haymount, you know, before they ever moved there.
Q  And how frequently did you see her on a given day?  One occasion or more than one oc-casion?
A  I’d say maybe twice a day.
Q  Now can you tell us something about what the Haymount section of--is or what kind of a community it is?
A  It’s where most of the hippies hang out.
Q  And on the various occasions that you had seen this young lady before the morning of the 17th of February, would you describe, you know, what her normal wearing apparel was?
A  Well, she had this purple outfit, you know, with the vest-type thing that she wore all the time.  It was kind of silky, and she had a big old white floppy hat that she wore, and she had a pair of white boots that she wore a lot, and she use to--I mean the hat was part of her because you very seldom, you know, when she went out she always had the hat with her.  I mean very seldom did you see her without the hat, and on once or twice she had worn a blonde wig, you know, she had a blonde wig too, and she had worn it once or twice, but she didn’t wear it too often, not real regular.

CPT SOMERS:  I object to the testimony about the blonde wig, since that’s obviously not wearing apparel.

MR. SEGAL:  I agree it is not normal wearing apparel.  That’s exactly why it is relevant testi-mony.  We will establish certain subsequent events relating to that--the clothing and the hair.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Captain Somers.

Q  Now, you said something about the fact that you had seen this floppy hat which she wore on more than one occasion?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How often would you say that she wore or had that hat with her?
A  Just about every time that she went out the door she had it.
Q  And could you describe anything about that hat, other than the fact that you called it a floppy hat?
A  Well, it was big, you know, it was kind of wide, you know, floppy, the type that flopped around--around the ears, and the thing went around the front.
Q  You mean the brim, you are referring to?
A  Yeah, but you know, it hung down around the front.
Q  Do you know what color it was?
A  It was white.
Q  Was she in the habit of also wearing the boots that you described?
A  She didn’t wear the boots that often.  She usually went barefooted most of the time.
Q  Did you ever see her in any other shoes, other than the boots?
A  I seen her--well, I’ve seen her, you know in sandals and stuff like this.
Q  Now do you know whether any particular type of weather conditions or the time of year when she would wear the boots?
A  Well, usually she’d wear the boots a lot of times when it was wet, or when she was going, you know, like to a party or something like this.  When she worn a dress she would wear her boots.
Q  Now, what was the weather conditions on that morning?  Do you recall?
A  It was fairly, you know, it was fairly cold.
Q  And was there anything else that you observed about the weather at that time?
A  Not that morning.
Q  Now did you have any occasion to mention the episode at the time it happened to any other person, your observance of the girl coming into the driveway at that time of morning?
A  Well, you know, they’ve done a lot of crazy things over there, but that was about as cra-ziest thing I’d seen them, painting away at that time in the morning, so, I, you know, I got my wife up and I--I brought her over to the front door to show her what was going on, and the only thing she--she saw was when the car was backing up, I woke her up, she saw the car backing out, and I show her them over there painting the apartment at that time in the morning.
Q  Had you ever seen that particular car there on any other occasion?
A  Well, it--I’d seen the Mustang there a lot of times, it was a blue one, but I can’t remember if that was the color of that car that morning, but I know it was a Mustang because I re-member the shape of the car and everything, but I didn’t take note of what color it was.
Q  Did you observe the persons who were in the Mustang that morning?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you know whether there was one or more persons in it when it drove off?
A  There was at least two in it when it drove off because they, you know, laughing and stuff.
Q  Did they appear to you, from what you saw and what you heard, from the voices, that they were males or females?
A  By their voices, by the way they were giggling, they were males.
Q  Do you know what connection, if any, that young woman you’ve described with a floppy hat, has ever had with Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A  Her father was a Colonel in the Army, and--
Q  Is he still a member of the Army?
A  No, he’s retired.
Q  And did you ever meet her father?
A  I met him on one occasion.  Shortly after she left and he come looking for her.  He was looking for her.
Q  How old a young woman is she?
A  I think she’s somewhere in the neighborhood of around 18, she looks older than her actual age.
Q  Now on the subsequent days, after February 17th, when Mrs. MacDonald--when the Mac-Donald killing was out, did you observe or see anything about this young lady in regard, first of all, to her clothing?
A  Well, I noticed that she quit wearing her hat.  I didn’t see her hat after that; she never wore her hat anymore after that at all.
Q  And prior to February 17th, did you ever recall having seen her without that particular hat that she wore?
A  Oh, I’d seen her, you know, a lot of times, without it, but most of the times she had it on.
Q  And did you ever have occasion to discuss the fact that you didn’t see her with it after February 17th?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.

CPT BEALE:  What is your basis?

CPT SOMERS:  Hearsay.

MR. SEGAL:  It is not offered for the truth or falsity of what she said but the observation and what was said that he acted on thereafter.

CPT BEALE:  Overruled.

Q  Now did you have any conversations with this young woman?
A  Well, about a week or two after, a friend of hers who was a friend of mine, Paul Bowman, he was getting out of the Army, and I owed him some money for a telephone bill, and so he was, you know, over there with them, and so he was by the fence and I saw him.  My wife and I were in the house and I went out to talk to him and my wife was standing on the porch.  I started talking to him, and then we got on the subject about--she said that the police had questioned her several times about it, and so he said that she needed an alibi, and then she walked up, you know, in the meantime, with the three of us standing there, and they were both on the other side of the fence, and so I said, “Well, I could be your alibi, be-cause I saw your girlfriends painting in their apartment, and I saw you when you got out of the car that morning.”
Q  Did she, herself, ever say anything about an alibi on the morning of February 17th?
A  Well, you know, you know, she--she said that she had been questioned several times, that she was stoned out that night and that she didn’t remember what she had done.
Q  Let’s break that down, first of all.  Did she, in fact, indicate that she had been questioned by police and other law enforcement authorities about her whereabouts on the morning of 17 February?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did she indicate as to her ability to establish where she was on that morning?
A  She said that she didn’t know where she was that morning.
Q  Did she ever use the word alibi, or the word alibi come up in her presence?
A  Paul, you know, brought up the word alibi.  He said that she needed an alibi.
Q  And what, if anything, did you say or do in response to his statement, that he thought she needed an alibi?
A  Well, I made the remark, I said, “Well, I can be her alibi because I saw her that morning.  I saw her two girlfriends painting the apartment, then I saw her when she come up and joined them, you know.”  And then when I said that, she kind of backed off and they had to go, they left, they left--they just dropped the subject then.
Q  What was your relationship with this young lady after the morning, after the day that you told her that you had seen her on the morning of 17 February?
A  Well, I mean, she kind of shied away from me then, and then she left shortly after that.
Q  How long after that particular conversation did she leave?
A  It was within a few days.
Q  You say she left.  She moved away from there?
A  She left completely.
Q  Did you ever have any discussions with her about the hat and the wig that you’d seen her with?
A  Yeah, I, on occasion, you know--
Q  Which occasion are you referring to?
A  The one about the alibi, you know, and she said, she made a remark--what made it look bad was that she didn’t--she threw her hat and her boots away, and I asked her, I said, “What did you do with them?”  She said she threw them away she didn’t remember what she’d done with them.  But her wig, she said she still had it, that blonde wig.
Q  Did you question her further about the location of the--or the method by which she dis-posed of her hat and her boots?
A  I asked her, you know, what she did with them, and she just kept saying she didn’t re-member what she’d done with them.
Q  Had you ever seen her with her boots and her hat after that morning, February 17th?
A  No.
Q  Did she describe anything about the condition of her boots at the time she disposed of them?
A  Well, I had talked to her, you know, about two nights ago.  She had just got back in town, and I went up to Haymount to try and find her, to try and find out what her name was, and I was talking to her, and she mentioned that when she got rid of the her boots, I said, “Why did you get rid of your boots?”  You know, she said, “Well, the heel was broken, I broke the heel” and she said they were awful muddy at the time.
Q  Now what was it that got you so interested or caused you to pay attention to the fact that the people next door were painting their apartment at 4:00 AM in the morning on the 17th?  What was there that struck you about that episode--you woke up and saw these girls painting the apartment?
A  You know, I mean, they didn’t usually keep hours like that, way down in the morning.  I mean they, it wasn’t part of her to be out running around that time of the morning.
Q  Did she discuss with you--did the young lady discuss with you her condition, her physical or mental condition, on the morning of the 17th of February when you talked to her?
A  Well, she said--she had said that she was stoned, and I asked her what she was using that night, if she was on acid or what, and she said mescaline.  I said didn’t she remember what she did, and she said that she had been stoned a hundred times on acid and all of it, you know, but she said that that was the only night that she couldn’t remember anything that had happened during the course of the night after she got stoned, and she said that since that time that she hadn’t tried any of it, and had been off of it.
Q  When you say she had not tried any of it, do you mean she was referring to the fact that she had tried--
A  Dropped acid, shot mescaline or anything else.
Q  But when you say stoned, perhaps it would be helpful to me if you gave a kind of descrip-tion of what you understood that term to mean.
A  Well, when you are stoned, you know, you--you are out of the world.  You are on your own.
Q  And that effect of being stoned, how is it achieved?  How does one become stoned?
A  Either drop acid or shoot speed or something.
Q  What do you mean, drop acid?
A  Take acid.
Q  And acid is what?  LSD?
A  LSD.
Q  Now what about mescaline?  Do you know what mescaline is?
A  I’m not familiar with it.  I heard about it when I was at college and I know a few people that used it, but I didn’t know what it was.
Q  Did she indicate at what time she had taken the mescaline on or about 17 February?
A  No.
Q  Did she indicate at all that she had known where she had been prior to the time she came home in the Mustang that morning?
A  She said that the only thing that she could remember, she told me was that she, you know, they were riding around.  That’s all she could remember, riding around, and she couldn’t remember anything else.
Q  Did she remember or ever mention to you who the other persons that she was with when she was driving around in this Mustang?
A  No.
Q  Now did she do anything else in regard to what she wore after February 17th that you ob-served?
A  Well, after then, you know, like she wore this purple outfit quite a bit.  Her clothes, I guess, were limited, because she didn’t have that many, but after that she started wearing black all the time.  Like now, when you see her, she has nothing but black on, which is part of her dress.
Q  Are you sure of the day on which Mrs. MacDonald and the MacDonald children were bur-ied?
A  Well, you know, I wasn’t--know the exact date, but then I sat in my house, and the paper said they were having the funeral services out here at Fort Bragg, but during the day I no-ticed that the girl, that girl, she wore black and had a black--

CPT SOMERS:  Excuse me.  I object to that.  It’s not responsive.

CPT BEALE:  Overruled, answer the question.

A  She wore a black dress that day with black shoes and she wore a thing over her face, a veil, a black veil over her face, and had one of those things you use on a grave, a big artifi-cial flower thing, wreath, they had a wreath outside her door, and she sat there and--it was unusual for her too, because most of the time she, she was the type that was always going, wanting to go somewhere, go, go.  But that day she wouldn’t go with anybody.  She stayed in the apartment by herself all day.  She just sat in there all day long.
Q  And that is the day in which you became aware that a funeral service was being held at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes.
Q  Had you ever seen her in that kind of get-up at all before?
A  That was quite contrary to the way she usually dressed.  She never dressed like that be-fore.
Q  And after the day of the MacDonald funeral, did she wear black clothing thereafter?
A  Well, after that day she left, you know, about a day or so later, and I’ve only seen her twice since then.  On both occasions that I have seen her, she had black on.
Q  Did you have occasion to talk to her on that day or inquire about this mourning apparel that she was wearing?
A  No, I didn’t talk to her that day, but, you know, her boyfriend had come up in his car and he wanted her to go somewhere, and she got real mad.  She wouldn’t talk to anyone.  He got real mad at her and she stormed out of the driveway and he took off, and she wouldn’t have nothing to do with anybody that day.  She kept to herself all day.
Q  Now this young lady told you about having been stoned a hundred times on acid, and hav-ing taken LSD, had you ever observed her conduct on prior occasions before February 17th, her manner of behavior, in which any way appeared to be other than an average normal per-son would behave?
A  On several occasions my wife and I had noticed her by herself and with friends, you know, in her apartment, they had taken a trip or something and she’d be acting like a bird or like a dog.  She acted out all these different types of animals and such.
Q  How would she perform?  What would she do when she acted out these animals?
A  Well, one thing that my wife--

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  This is irrelevant in the extreme.  How she acted as an ani-mal is totally unrelated to this case.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained, Captain Somers.

Q  Now did you ever observe the type of illumination that was used in the apartment in which this young lady and her friends lived?
A  I don’t understand what you mean.
Q  All right.  What kind of lighting was in the apartment when it was dark outside and there was no daylight to--
A  Well, you know, they moved in.  None of them worked.  They just--they didn’t have--I didn’t see any of them have regular jobs, their electricity was cut off, and they burned--they had candlelight for maybe two or three days, and then their friends in the back apartment, they ran this extension cord from their apartment to theirs to give them light.
Q  Did you ever observe candles in that apartment yourself, actually see them?
A  Well, I’d seen candle, candlelight, like one night when she was acting like a bird, you know, she was--the candle was there and she was making imitations onto the wall, I mean, that’s about the only time that I noticed it, besides one night they had a séance, but that’s about the only time.
Q  Did you have occasion to become aware of whether there were other drugs present in that apartment other than the LSD which she said she used?
A  Well, you, like I went over there once or twice to talk to Paul, you know, and they’d been smoking grass or something like this.
Q  Did they have visitors frequently in the apartment in the evening hours?
A  Well, like Mr. Archbell, he’s the man that--he’s an old man that lives there, and they usu-ally made a lot of noise and so, like one night him and I just sat there together and we counted the people that went in, and in the course of a night, in about four hours, there was thirty-some-odd different people go to their apartment and then leave.
Q  How long would these people stay in the apartment?
A  No more than five minutes.
Q  And what age were these people?  Elderly people?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  It’s irrelevant.

MR. SEGAL:  Oh, I don’t think, it’s clearly circumstantial evidence.  It’s a classic testimony by agents who conducted narcotics investigations indicating the pattern of activity, and it seems to me that a person having established use of drugs, if there is any indication of fur-ther drug activity, it seems to be germane to this inquiry.

CPT SOMERS:  He’s already testified that she said that she used drugs.  I don’t see what he can possibly be driving at at this point.

MR. SEGAL:  Sale of drugs on the premises.

CPT SOMERS:  There no charge here of drugs.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Captain Somers.

CPT BEALE:  Would you repeat the question?

Q  Would you indicate the age range of these people that came?
A  They ranged anywhere from fifteen on up to about twenty something, twenty-five, twen-ty-six.
Q  And was this the kind of condition that existed there only on the night that you and Mr. Archbell observed on that night, or on other occasions also?
A  It happened all the time.
Q  You mentioned you observed a séance taking place in the apartment where this young la-dy lived.  Would you describe something of what you saw at that time, particularly as to her conduct?
A  Well, they didn’t have it in her apartment.  They had it in Paul Bowman’s apartment.  But see, he moved out.  I went back there to see him, and I knocked on the door, and the cur-tain--they had long curtains on the inside of the door, and they were kind of cracked and they had a red light that would rotate around, and they were all sitting in a circle there hold-ing hands and watching Paul’s wife, because she was talking.  See, they all thought they were witches.
Q  How did you get that impression, they thought they were witches?
A  Well, like my brother-in-law and his wife, they weren’t married then, and my wife’s sister stayed with us, and her and Jimmy were having some trouble, you know, just boyfriend and girlfriend trouble, but one day Helen and Paul’s wife told her that they could make up some love potion for her, and so they used Jimmy’s car, that’s my brother-in-law, to go out to the woods to get some stuff to make some love potion with.
Q  You used the name, Helen, is that the--
A  That’s the name I knew the girl by.
Q  That’s the girl with the floppy hat that lived next door?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right, what else did you observe about the séance?
A  You know, I just stood there and watched them a few minutes and they were trying to contact somebody’s uncle.  Paul’s uncle or somebody, something, because that’s what--I can’t think of his wife’s name--but she was going to talk to, you know, so I just turned around and left because they wouldn’t answer the door.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to be in the presence of this young lady when there were po-lice or other law enforcement officers nearby?
A  No, I just--I saw her busted one day, but that’s all.
Q  Did you ever hear her comment about police and what terms did she use to refer to law enforcement people?
A  She calls them pigs.
Q  Have you heard her say that recently?
A  Well, like night before last, a policeman passed by in a car and she said, “Check the pig wagon out.”  And she pointed to the cop.
Q  Mr. Posey, I want to show you an exhibit that’s been previously marked in this case, A-31, and ask you whether this resembles any person that you know.
A  It resembles her in the way of the hat and the eyes, and this, you know, that’s the type of long straight blonde wig, but her nose is big, like that, but it doesn’t look like her chin.
Q  You disagree with the way the chin appears in this photo, rather this drawing, as you re-member the girl?
A  Yeah, no, I mean--
Q  You disagree?
A  I do disagree with the chin, yes.
Q  May I have this drawing, sir, marked as Accused Exhibit 36, I believe.

MR. SEGAL:  I would state at this time that the exhibit that we’ve just had marked as A-36, was prepared in the same manner and fashion as the Exhibit A-31, by a former police artist pursuant to interviews and working with Captain MacDonald, and this drawing was prepared in the same fashion, except this is a photograph of the original.  We are using a photograph at this time.

COL ROCK:  On what date were these prepared, approximately?

MR. SEGAL:  August 8th and August 9th of 1970.

COL ROCK:  That will be entered as Accused Exhibit 36, drawing of man with mustache.

(A-36 was examined by counsel for the government.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Mr. Posey, I want to show you a copy of a drawing marked A-36 in this case, and ask you whether the face that appears in that drawing resembles any person you know?
A  It resembles the guy, you know, that used to drive the blue Mustang over there all the time.  It doesn’t look--the only thing, the mustache and the way his hair is.  He always wore fly-away collars, the kind that don’t button down, they were always flopping around.
Q  Like the collar is depicted here?
A  He was a, you know, a well-built man.  He wasn’t fat or anything.  He was well built.  He’s maybe six foot tall.
Q  You say he’s the man who always drove the Mustang?
A  Yes.
Q  Is that the type of car that resembles the car you saw on the morning of 17 February, out of which the young lady got out?
A  It was the same type of car.  It was one of those Mach 1’s.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  How far away from the apartment that you were living in was the apartment of these girls?
A  Between, about fifteen and twenty feet.
Q  And what were the two girls doing, did you say, in the house on the morning of the 17th?
A  They were painting.

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  What were they painting?  Were they painting walls or were they painting pictures?

WITNESS:  They were painting walls, but they weren’t what you call wall painting--they were painting designs and stuff like that.

COL ROCK:  On the walls?

WITNESS:  One of the girls was doing something on the floor, painting something on the floor.

Q  You say lights were on in that apartment?
A  At that time, yes.
Q  How many lights did they have?
A  Well, you see, it’s just one room apartment with a little bitty bathroom off to the side, a shower and just a small section for a kitchen.
Q  Do you know how many lights they have?
A  Well, I don’t know.  They had one in the kitchen, I am sure, and there’s one in the living room, and there’s one in the bathroom, but I don’t know if there is one in the shower or not.
Q  And these were all connected up to an extension cord from somebody else’s apartment?
A  No, the extension cord, you know, they had used that before then, before that time.
Q  You mean at some point they paid their electricity bill?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now why was it that this seemed unusual to you?
A  Well, I mean, I observed them doing a lot of things, but you know, I never see them at four o’clock in the, morning over there painting their apartment, painting designs and stuff like this, laughing and cutting up the way they were.
Q  But you had seen them in a séance and you had seen them with thirty or more people in and out of that apartment, and you’ve seen them using drugs, but compared to these things, painting at four o’clock in the morning seemed unusual to you?
A  I didn’t say that I had seen them take drugs.  I seen them, what looked like they were un-der the influence of drugs.
Q  Did you not say you had seen them smoking marijuana?
A  Yeah, I’ve seen them smoking grass.  I seen a bunch of them smoke grass.
Q  By grass do you mean marijuana?
A  Marijuana.
Q  And what was this girl wearing that got out of that Mustang?
A  You know, I didn’t notice what she was wearing.  I didn’t take note of what she had on.
Q  But she wasn’t wearing a hat?
A  No, she wasn’t wearing a hat.
Q  And what color is her hair?
A  It is brunette.
Q  How long had she been living there prior to this incident?
A  Two or three months.
Q  And how long had you been living in your apartment there prior to that incident?
A  About a year, two years, over a year.
Q  You had seen this girl about twice a day during this two or three month period?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where and under what circumstances did you usually see her?
A  Well, now I’ve seen her coming in and out of her apartment a lot, but like my wife and I, we’d go up to the Village Shoppe, you know, get a  pizza or something, and she’s be up there a lot of times, she’d be at the Village Shoppe.
Q  Now you’ve described this as an area where a lot of hippies hang out.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What’s a hippie to you?
A  Someone that is against the establishment.  I mean they--freedom of dress and long hair, beads.
Q  And you considered these girls hippies?
A  Well, the way they dressed and acted, yes, I believe they were hippies.
Q  Do you expect to see unusual conduct in hippies?
A  You expect unusual conduct but they--they do things that are, you know, go beyond what they normally do.
Q  You saw this girl come in on the morning of the 17th.  Did you see her when she went out?
A  No.
Q  Then you don’t know what she was wearing when she went out?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now you say this girl told you she had thrown her hat and boots away.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When did she throw her hat and boots away?
A  Well, about a week or two after that when I was--when Paul and I and her were talking, you know, she said that she had thrown them away, and it was prior to that, maybe in be-tween that time and the murder, and up to that date, but she didn’t say specially at what time she had thrown them away.
Q  In other words, she had thrown them away between the 17th and the time you spoke to her?
A  Right.  But she said that she was questioned, either a day or two days later she was questioned and she said that, you know, she didn’t have her boots and her hat at that time either.
Q  You cannot describe the people that were in that Mustang.  Is that correct?
A  No, sir.
Q  But you believe there were more than two in the car, two or more in the car when it left on the morning of the 17th?
A  Yes, sir, there was at least two in there because there was more than two voices coming from the car, at least two voices coming from the car.
Q  Now describe the discussion again concerning an alibi.  Who first mentioned that word?
A  Paul Bowman, a friend of hers.
Q  And what did he say?
A  He said that, you know, she had been questioned three or four times and that she didn’t know where she had been that night, that she was stoned and needed an alibi, you know, and then I made the remark that I had seen her girlfriends painting and I saw her get out of the car, get out of the car that morning, and I told him that I could be her alibi, so far as--
Q  And what did she say?
A  She didn’t say anything.  She just kind of, you know, backed off and both of them dropped the conversation.
Q  When was the discussion about the boots and the hat?
A  That was earlier, earlier than the conversation, you know, when she said--when she had come up and told me that she had been questioned, you know, several times.
Q  Now you say she shied away.  I believe that’s one of the terms you used at the time you mentioned that?
A  Yes.
Q  Well, describe shied away.
A  Well, I mean like we were having, doing a lot of discussion, and all of a sudden she just, they both just withdrew from me.  They had to go--they had to leave.
Q  They both withdrew?
A  Well, she did first and then Paul dropped the conversation and he got on another topic and they both left.
Q  Was Paul in that Mustang or in that area the night that she came in?
A  I didn’t see him.
Q  You say that she told you that she was driving around that night, and that’s all she re-membered.  Is that correct?
A  That’s all she said she could remember.
Q  Now as I understand it, you’ve seen her twice since the 17th to talk to her, is that cor-rect?
A  No, I said I’ve seen her--she stayed around there after that for awhile, but then she left and I’ve only seen her twice since she left.
Q  I see.  And she was wearing black on both of those occasions?
A  On both occasions.
Q  What kind of black clothing are we talking about?
A  Well, like she use to wear all purple silky outfits with a vest and a white blouse, and these silky looking baggy pants, but now she wears the same type of clothing, but it’s solid black, it’s all black.  I mean like the other night when I saw her she had the same style of pants and vest, but the purple part was black.
Q  Did this girl ever say to you that she had been in the MacDonald apartment?
A  No, sir.
Q  When was it that these candles that you’ve described were used to light the apartment?
A  It was about the first part, the first month they lived there.
Q  In the first month, which was what?  November, December?
A  I don’t remember exactly that month.
Q  Now you said that these people all thought that they were witches.  First off, who is they?
A  Paul’s--Paul’s wife and Helen, the girl, and Sheila, another girl who used to live in an up-stairs apartment.  But I never heard her roommates say that they were.
Q  Then you have heard these other girls say that they were witches?
A  Yes.
Q  All of them?
A  Right, all three of them.
Q  Now when you were asked why you thought they were witches, you described an incident in which they were offering to make a love potion, but you didn’t say then that you heard them call themselves witches.  When did they call themselves witches?
A  Well, you know, prior to, like I had never heard them say they were witches, but see, like Sheila, she had all those books on witchcraft, you know, we used to go to their apartment a lot, Sheila’s apartment.
Q  Did Sheila call herself a witch?
A  On that day that they were going to make the love potion, they told my wife and I that they were witches.
Q  Now, “they” are who?
A  The three of them said that they were witches, and they said that they could make a love potion that would bring Jimmy and Debbie back together.
Q  Would you give us, please, the full names of all those people?
A  Well, Sheila--I just know her by that name.  I know Helen and Paul’s wife--her last name is Bowman, but I can’t think of her first name right now.
Q  And your brother-in-law?
A  Jimmy Cramado.  C-r-a-m-a-d-o.
Q  And his girlfriend?
A  His wife now.
Q  Well, before that?
A  Before she got married or what?
Q  No, just her first name.
A  Debbie.
Q  Have you had an occasion to talk to many of these people you’ve described as hippies?
A  Well, I’ve talked to several of them, a lot of them.  My brother, one of my younger broth-ers, he--he is a senior in high school this year, he lived with me.  He associated with them a lot, you know--
Q  And what do they normally call policemen?
A  Well, they normally refer them as pigs.
Q  Most hippies use that term, do they not?
A  Either a fuzz or pig, the majority of them.  They call anyone in the establishment a pig.
Q  Describe for us, please, the individual whom you’ve identified as being the driver of the Mustang that usually frequented that apartment?
A  You mean his eyes and stuff?
Q  Right.
A  He’s about the--about six feet tall, about the same height as you.  He was a little bit big-ger in the shoulders, you know.  He wasn’t a muscle man, but he was a well-built man.
Q  He was about six feet tall?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now I show you A-31 again.  You say that the hat looks familiar?
A  Right.
Q  And you say the hair was long and stringy as you see it there in that exhibit?
A  The blonde wig was long and stringy.
Q  The blonde wig was long and stringy?
A  Right.
Q  You say the eyes looked similar to the girl’s eyes.  Is that correct?
A  The eyes looks like hers.
Q  Now what characteristics of the eyes looked similar?
A  Well, they’re, you know, big and they’re kind of round, round like hers.
Q  These eyes look big to you in the picture?
A  Right.
Q  You say the chin doesn’t look right.  Is that right?
A  She has a chin--she has a chin like, you know, it comes up.  She has a chin like that, but it was more noticeable than the drawing.
Q  And what about the nose?
A  Her nose is kind of big.
Q  Did you say that the cheeks were correct or that they were not correct?
A  The cheeks don’t look too good.
Q  Is that a drawing of her, then, do you think?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  It was asked whether it resembled--to purport it to be a copy of that person is an unfair question and is improper.

CPT BEALE:  I agree.  The witness has merely testified that this drawing either does or does not resemble a person.  It can’t purport to be the person, so the objection is sustained.

Q  Now I show you Exhibit A-36.  Why do you say that looks similar to the man who drives a Mustang?
A  The way his hair is and the mustache and everything.  He has kind of, you know, big eye-brows.
Q  Those are the only similarities?
A  Right.  He--you know, the guy that drove the Mustang, he was a--a more conservative dresser than the others.  He didn’t dress sloppy all the time.  He always wore decent clothes and he always--always wore fly-away collars, never button-down collars.
Q  You are not sure that’s the same Mustang that came there the 17th, are you?
A  No, sir.
Q  Was the address of this apartment that Helen and her friends lived in, 1108 Clark Street, Apartment 3?
A  It was either, you know, I never paid any attention, it was either 11--well, my was 1106.  It was 1108.
Q  Who is the landlord?  Is that Mr. Turner?
A  Mr. Turner, yes.
Q  And you said this girl indicated to you that she had been interviewed by police on more than one occasion?
A  Yes.  She is the one that they had the write-up in the Fayetteville newspaper about.  They had a--they had a thing there about her, and the one day that they had questioned her several times and she said that she admitted in the paper using drugs, stuff like this.
Q  I see.  To what law enforcement agency did you report this information concerning her coming in on the morning of the 17th?
A  None.
Q  You have never reported this to a law enforcement agency?
A  No, sir.
Q  When did you bring this to someone’s attention other than your wife or your friends?
A  Well, you know--what do you mean?
Q  When was the first time you told somebody other than your wife or maybe your friends about this?
A  I told Mr. Segal, well, I, you know, Monday I work--I work for a linen service, and Monday I was working at Heart of Fayetteville at which he was staying at and I heard, you know, that I delivered to, she said the MacDonald lawyers were staying there, and she named the room.  So later on that night, you see, since then it’s always--I’ve stayed up quite a few nights thinking about it--so I called and talked to them, and then I went to see them the next morning.  He’s the only one.
Q  How come you haven’t told somebody before now?
A  Because I didn’t want to get involved in it.
Q  You didn’t want to get involved.  What do you mean by that?
A  Well, when--I figured, you know, if they did it, and they did it to his family, that if they had any connection to it and they knew that I was the one, I saw her that morning, and she had anything to do with  it, they would get me, get my family, and I, my wife, you know, she’s the type that anything upsets her and so, we had several discussions over it, but we always decided not to say anything about it, just keep it to ourselves.
Q  How many jobs have you had since you worked for Bass?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.  Answer the question.

A  I worked at Bass and then I quit Bass and my trade is painting signs and contracting, stuff like this, and I painted during the summer which is a good season, and then I just took up the linen job about last Saturday I started working for them, this past Saturday.
Q  Have you ever used drugs yourself?
A  Negative.
Q  There’s been a reward offered for information in this case.  Did you ever hear about the reward?
A  Well, you know, Mr. Eisman mentioned it, I think, about the third time I talked to him, but after we--I had told him everything that I knew and I had heard it on the radio several months, you know, a  few months back, but other than that one occasion when Mr. Eisman spoke to me of it, well you know, they said that, on the radio they say there was a reward but they didn’t say how much, you know, I heard it one day and that was it.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at this time, if we could, we’d like to take about a five-minute recess.  We may have some evidence we can use with this witness.  I’d like to check on that.

COL ROCK:  The hearing will recess temporarily.

(The hearing recessed at 1000 hours, 13 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1029, 13 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present are currently in the hearing room.
    Mr. Posey, I again remind you that you are under oath.
    Does counsel for the government have further questions at this time of the witness?

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further of this witness, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I have some matters on redirect, if I may, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  On the various persons you saw visiting this girl in her apartment, were they all members of the Caucasian race, that is, white persons?
A  No, sir.
Q  How many were non-whites?
A  There was only one colored guy that come over there pretty regular.  In fact he was the only colored guy that I ever seen over there.  The reason I remember him so well is that I’m from Alabama, you know, and my wife was in the kitchen one day cooking, and here he come be-hopping up, dressed like a hippie, mocs and boots and everything, it was really wild to see a colored guy, you know, in their group with them, right along with them.
Q  The Mustang that you say the man with the mustache drove, was it any particular model of the Mustang automobile?
A  It was the new Mach 1 they had out.
Q  That’s spelled M-a-c-h and the Roman number one?
A  Right, it was a Mach 1.
Q  What distinguishes that Mustang from the ordinary model of the Mustang?
A  Well, it, you know, comes down kind of streamed--streamlined--and has this spoiler in the back of it.
Q  You say it comes down.  Are you referring to the rear of the car where the trunk is--in a streamline fashion?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you describe what a spoiler is?
A  It’s a--you know, kind of a square deal on the back on a Mustang.  On a Mach it is kind of rounded off and comes down.
Q  Would it be applicable to say something like a wing standing up on it head?
A  No, it’s not a wing type.
Q  Is there anything else about the Mach 1 that is different from the ordinary Mach 1--other ordinary models of the Mustang?
A  Well, they usually have a scoop, a black scoop on the front of them, and it has Mach 1 on it, and if it is a 351 it has 351 on it.
Q  You say a scoop on part of it.  What portion of the car are you talking about?
A  On the hood.
Q  On the hood?  And what are the words on it?
A  It has the words, “Mach 1.”
Q  I see.  Now the car that you saw the girl come up in on the morning of February 17th, you described that also to us this morning as a Mustang.  Am I correct?
A  Right.
Q  Did you observe whether, in fact it was any special model Mustang?
A  It was a Mach 1 also, because it had a scoop on it.
Q  Was this girl who lived next door, the girl that you described as the girl who owned the floppy hat and the boots, to your knowledge, was she ever arrested for any crime?
A  She had been, you know, busted for dope several times.
Q  For dope.  What do you mean?  Do you know what she was charged with, what crime she was charged with?
A  Well, she was involved in one of the big acid rings they had here in Fayetteville and I think that was a little bit over a year ago.
Q  Do you know whether she was charged with either use or possession or sale of drugs?
A  Possession.
Q  Do you know whether she had any close friends who were members of the armed forces of the United States stationed here at Fort Bragg?
A  The majority of her friends were military in the Army.
Q  And were there any particular persons whom she was close to or who, about whom she was concerned and the way the military was treating them?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  It’s irrelevant and it is beyond the scope of any direct or cross-examination.

MR. SEGAL:  It seems to me very close to the question of motive in regard to attitude toward the Army personnel in regard to drug arrest.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.  You may answer the question.

A  The only members of their family that, you know, got busted, there was three guys that got busted on …. Street, who use to come over there all the time, and all three of them was military, but two of them was getting discharged, and one of them got discharged and on the same day he got discharged, he got busted for LSD.
Q  That person, who had LSD, to your knowledge, was he a soldier at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes.
Q  And do you know about what month that arrest took place?
A  It was in, it was, you know, wasn’t a long period of time before that case in February.
Q  You mean it was not a long period of time before February 17th, 1970?
A  Right.
Q  Would you indicate whether it was more than a month, or less than a month, or what?
A  It was within a month that he got busted.
Q  What was her attitude to the fact that her friend has been arrested the day he was dis-charged?
A  All of them were upset about it, you know.  She was--he associated with all of them, but he didn’t necessarily associate with her, you know, her specially.  They were all good friends.
Q  Did she ever express what her attitude was toward the United States Army and Fort Bragg particular?
A  They all did that.
Q  And what was their attitude?
A  It stunk.
Q  That was her view of the Army?
A  (Witness nodded head in the affirmative.)
Q  You used the description a moment ago something about the family.  What does that mean?  What relevance did it have to this young lady?
A  Well, like before, you know they made a bunch of noise.  They used to stay up until one or two o’clock in the morning, making noise all night long, so I went and told Mr. Turner, the landlord.  I said--I told him, you know, there are more than them girls staying there.  He said, well, there’s only supposed to be two.  So he come over there with me, you know, that night, and he went in there and he started kicking them out of their apartment, and he kicked something like ten or fifteen guys out and girls, and they had their bags, and they were all, you know, staying there.  It wasn’t just the three of them.
Q  Did they have a name for themselves, these people that hung around with this girl?  Were they good friends?
A  I mean they were, you know, just considered themselves one big group, one big family.
Q  Did they ever use the term “family” for themselves in describing their friends, that they were part of the family?
A  You know, I never referred to them, you know, as being the family, but they said a lot of times, part of the group.
Q  Did you observe any differences or changes in the attitude or behavior of this young wom-an before--from the time before February 17th, and the time after February 17th 1970?
A  Well, like before, she, she was always, you know, real gay and real happy, and like I’d come home from work and she’d say “Hi” you know, real loud and ask me how my day went and this type of thing, but like night before last when I saw her she looked all run-down and she, she keeps to herself more.  She’s not with the group, like night before last all the group was down here at Rowan Park and she was up there by herself.
Q  Did you observe that change in behavior after February 17th?
A  Well, I mean, you know, after that there wasn’t no all night parties or anything going on next door there.  Everything was real quiet.
Q  Did she continue to go or associate with this same young man who had been her by friend before February 17th, as she did after--
A  Not like she did before, you know, they were always together before but after that--in fact, I didn’t even see him until, you know, just here recently.  He didn’t come over no more after that.  The day that MacDonald was buried, he was over there.
Q  Did you ever hear her talk about killing other human beings?
A  Well, you know, like the night before last, I asked her, and we got to talking about the MacDonald thing and everything and I asked her, she told me she was stoned out, she didn’t remember what she done, and I said, “Well, did you do it?  Were you a part of it?” and she says she doesn’t know, she just drew a blank, but she said that she didn’t think she could kill anyone because she wasn’t that type of person that, you know, was hostile, and I said, “Well, you could have just been holding the light,” you know, and she kinda, you know, just nodded her head and let it go at that.  But she made a remark, I asked, how was her and her boyfriend doing, and she said they weren’t getting along too well, and I asked her why, and she said, “Well, we can’t get married until we go out and kill some more people.”  She made that remark.
Q  Now I want to back up for just a second in regard to what you just told us.  Are you tell-ing the investigating officer that two nights ago you asked this young lady whether or not she was involved in the killing in the MacDonald home?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now will you, better go over this, slowing down--put the question, state the questions you posed to her, and tell us what she said, as much as her words as possible?
A  Well, you know, she had been talking about it and I said, I asked her, had they questioned her any more about it, and she said no that she had been gone, she’d just got back in town, you know, and she told me that she was dying from hepatitis, kidney disease or something, and she said she was supposed to die within a year, and so I asked her had they questioned her any more and she said no, and then I said, you know, I asked her if she was involved in it and she said she was stoned out on mescaline that night, and I said, “Well, were you there?  Did you do it?  And she said, “I don’t, you know, remember what I did that night.”  She said, “I’ve been stoned on acid a dozen times,” she said, “But that night’s the only night I can’t re-member exactly what I done” and so I says, “Do you believe that you could have been in-volved in it?”  And she said, “Well, I don’t believe that I could kill anyone because I don’t have hostile tendencies.”  And I said, “You could have just been holding the candle,” and she kinda nodded her head.
Q  When you say “nodded her head,” do you mean affirmative or negative?
A  Well, you know, just, you know, she didn’t say yes, she didn’t nod no or yes, either way, she just motioned her head.

COL ROCK:  I’m sorry, which way did she motion her head?

WITNESS:  It was an up and down motion.

COL ROCK:  To you, would that normally mean that the individual agreed with you or dis-agreed with you?

WITNESS:  I couldn’t--I couldn’t, it didn’t--I , mean, like she didn’t want to answer it to me, in my opinion, because she didn’t nod her head yes or no either way.

Q  Before you decided to contact me and even before you decided to agree to appear here yesterday, did you discuss your testimony--did you discuss out request to have you come here to testify with your wife?
A  It had been bothering me, you know, a lot of what I’d seen that day, and what I had ob-served after that, but I mentioned to my wife, you know, that I wanted to go and tell the people what I know, and she was afraid.  Like now, like yesterday when I was here, she didn’t even know I was here, and today, this morning, I told her, and she’s been real upset, like the other night in Haymount, she saw me up there, and that upset her, and like last night, the screen door on the house, you know, kept hitting, flopping back and forth and that upset her.  She’s been real jittery.  She don’t want to get involved.
Q  Why did you and your wife move from Haymount area?
A  Well, because of the hippies, you know, always tripping out and after that you couldn’t--you couldn’t tell what they will do, you know.
Q  What was told to you by Mr. Eisman or myself, or anyone else about a reward?
A  Well, I think it was Tuesday night or Wednesday night that I was, after he had talked to me, Mr. Eisman mentioned that if anybody gives any information leading to the conviction or arrest for the murder, they get a reward of $5,000.
Q  Did anyone tell you or suggest to you, or in any way indicate to you that you would re-ceive any compensation or anything of any value for coming here to testify in these proceed-ings?
A  No, you said that, you know, I asked you to keep my name out of the papers and stuff, and you said that, you made a remark, “Well, you don’t even know me, but you’ll have to trust me about keeping your name out of the papers,” but you said it was risky, but, you know, there was no reward, you know, anything like that.

MR. SEGAL:  May I have marked for identification, sir, an automobile brochure of Ford Motor Company, A-37.  Sir, may the record reflect that I have taken a page of a booklet, put out by the Ford Motor Company; a page illustrates six models of the Ford Mustang.  This booklet is issued January 1970 and I am going to show it to the witness for the purpose of having him look at six profile outlines of Mustang models.

Q  I ask you to look at this, Mr. Posey, and indicate whether you recognize the body style known as the Mustang Mach 1 here?
A  This one.
Q  You’ve indicated the car on the bottom of the two lines, or the profile that is in the mid-dle.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Would you circle it with a red pen, please?

(Witness complied.)

Q  And does that resemble the car that the man with the mustache who is know to us in the picture marked as A-36 drove?
A  Right.
Q  And does that resemble the car that came up to the house of this young lady on the morning of February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  That will be entered as Accused Exhibit A-37, illustration of Mustang Mach 1.

Q  Mr. Posey, this young lady had occasion to tell you, did she not, that she was under some investigation by the police immediately after the early morning of February 17th 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did she indicate to you as to what crime the police were talking to her about?
A  About the MacDonald incident.
Q  And did she indicate that she had read about that, the investigation of herself and other hippies in the newspaper articles too?
A  I don’t know what you mean.
Q  Did she make reference to a newspaper article at that time referring to the hippies in the Haymount area?
A  No.
Q  Did she mention to you at any time that, that she not only didn’t have an alibi, but that it appeared somewhere that she didn’t have an alibi?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  That is totally leading and completely improper.

MR. SEGAL:  I’ll withdraw the question.

Q  In regard to the discussion that you had with this young lady and the alibi, did she ever mention that her failure to have an alibi had been told to other people?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that too.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase it again, Mr. Segal.

Q  What, if anything, did she say about the knowledge of other people about her not having an alibi?
A  I don’t understand what you mean.
Q  All right, let me put it this way.  Did she ever discuss the fact that she didn’t have an alibi with you?  Please say yes, or no.  Did she ever discuss with anybody else the alibi?
A  Did she discuss--
Q  She did discuss with you that she didn’t have an alibi?
A  Right.
Q  Did you ever hear from anyone else that she didn’t have an alibi?
A  Other than Paul Bowman, no.
Q  Did you ever read anything about the fact that she didn’t have an alibi?
A  Well, there was an article, the write-up in the Fayetteville Observer, I think it appeared about three or four days after that, was about her, you know, and it didn’t say anything about, you know, about her whereabouts, you know, it just said they had questioned her several times.

MR. SEGAL:  May I have a photostatic copy of a news article marked as A-38 for identifica-tion, sir?

COL ROCK:  Do you wish to show this to--

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, I do.

(The article was examined by counsel for the government.)

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  I don’t know what its purpose is, but this is a newspaper article concerning some information gained from some unknown source about, theoretically about the MacDonald case, and its use here is completely out of line.  We, we can’t measure it, test it or anything else.

MR. SEGAL:  It’s not offered for the truth or its contents.  It’s offered for the fact that this is the article that the witness read in connection with his discussion with the young lady who had lived next door to him.  Its contents are obviously not the evidence in this case.  It’s merely to indicate that this is the material he was reading.

COL ROCK:  Well, then what purpose would that serve, even if it were admitted, counselor?  I don’t follow.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, this indicated that, in fact, and in fact we can verify it when we bring the investigating officers in, that the persons who were interviewed were being told they were being interviewed for some other offenses, some other investigations about drugs, and not the MacDonald case; as contrarily distinguished throughout, this witness has testified that the girl said that she was being interviewed about the MacDonald case.  It seems to me it clearly indicates the fact that this young woman had information about the MacDonald case. Although it is purported all those who were interviewed were for other crimes, we will tie it together if necessary by bringing in all the investigators, but preliminarily, it has to be indi-cated that the article was the wellspring of the conversation he was having with the young woman.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, for the purpose the defense speaks of, this thing cannot be used to prove anything about that investigation, and in any use in connection with this witness, I still contend that it’s irrelevant, incompetent and inadmissible in any kind of a form.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, the relevancy of it does not appear readily available to the investi-gating officer, and therefore at this time it will not be received.

MR. SEGAL:  All right, thank you.  You may cross-examine.  I beg your pardon.  There is one other matter I must ask him about.

Q  Has any threat been made against you in regard to your revealing the information about what you saw on the morning of February 17th, and anything else about the activities and whereabouts of the young woman you’ve described, the girl and the hat?
A  Well, the night before last when I had a conversation outside the Village Shoppe, you know, I told her I wasn’t living there any more, you know.  She asked me why and I said my wife was upset because of what was going on, the hippies and everything, and she asked me, she said, “Where do you live now?”  And she point-blank asked me my address.  She wanted to know what my address was, so I told her.  I didn’t tell her my real address, I told her a phony one, then I started to leave.  My wife, you know, went by in the car, so I walked up to my mother-in-law’s to meet my wife, and as I started to walk away real fast she was talking to her boyfriend, and she said, “Where are you going?”  I said, “I gotta go now.  My wife just passed by.”  And she, “What was your address?”  And she asked me two more times what my address was, and so you know, I told her again the same address I told her before, and she said, kind of jokingly, she said, “Well, tell your wife to lock the doors, be-cause we’ll be over to see you.”

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Did you say, sir, there was an incident which you reported, reported in the apartment across the way for the number of people there and the noise at the time they were staying up until one or two o’clock in the morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you say that they were doing this often?
A  Well, you know, they were making noise pretty much in the night.
Q  And were they doing this late?
A  Well, it’s, you know, around twelve o’clock, one o’clock.  It never went past maybe one o’clock.
Q  Never went past one o’clock?
A  No, they usually stopped by then.
Q  Now you say this group, so far as you know, never used the term “family”?
A  No, sir.
Q  And you say this girl looked run-down the last time you saw her, is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you also say she was suffering from hepatitis?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What color was her boyfriend’s car?  Do you know that?  What kind of car was it?
A  It’s a--somewheres about a ’65.
Q  And what color?
A  Yellow.
Q  As I understand it, you said this girl she didn’t remember what she had done on the night of the 17th, but she felt she could not have been involved in the killing.  Is that correct?
A  She said she didn’t remember what she had done, other than just ride around.  She re-membered riding around early in the morning, but, you know, when I asked her, was she in-volved in it, was she there, and she didn’t say.  She never once, she never did say that she wasn’t involved in it.
Q  Didn’t you say that she had said she didn't feel she was capable of killing anybody?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I see.  Now didn’t you also tell me on my cross-examination that Mr. Eisman mentioned this reward to you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I see.  And I understand that you are frightened about this situation, and about giving information and becoming personally involved, or your wife is at any rate.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And if that’s the case, why did you personally go out and look for this girl and expose yourself to further danger?
A  Because they needed to know the name of the girl.
Q  Who is “they”?
A  Mr. Eisman and Mr. Segal.
Q  And because they wanted to know the name of the girl, you personally went out and ex-posed yourself to the danger and talked to her.  Is that correct?
A  Well, see, I didn’t--I didn’t think she would be there, because she had been gone so long, so I figured, I knew the people that she associated with, you know, and they knew me, and like I knew they used drugs and pushed drugs and I never ratted on them, so they didn’t have no reason, you know, think that I was there trying to gather information.
Q  Well, now is it from her that you would fear reparation, or fear revenge or is it from her friends?
A  Well, it’s--would be from, to them, they are one.  They watch out for each other, just like yesterday I saw in the paper where the one guy that--

CPT SOMERS:  Now, that’s not--

MR. SEGAL:  I object to cutting off the witness’s answer.  He asked a question.  The witness wants to explain his answer.

CPT SOMERS:  The witness has answered the question.  The rest of his answer is not re-sponsive to the question.

MR. SEGAL:  We can’t tell until we hear it, sir.  I object to his cutting the witness off.

CPT SOMERS:  Captain Somers, if you will, let the witness finish answering your question.

Q  You may continue.
A  Yesterday I noticed this guy had been set up for twelve years for tying up this other guy.  See, these particular people, the names were in the paper, and one of the guys stayed next door, and the one guy that, you know, they took out to 71st and tied up, you know, held the shotgun to his head, he messed around with them, and one of them got busted for dope and they thought he was the informer, and so I figure if she knew that I saw her that morning, if she was involved they would track me down and get me.
Q  Who is this “they?”
A  Well, her and her friends.
Q  Well, the people that you read about in the newspaper, are they part of this group?  Are they her friends?
A  They have been over there.  They have associated with her, her and her friends.
Q  Then you know these people in the newspaper?
A  I knew, you know, if I saw them I would know them, but I don’t know them by name, but I’d seen them over there, and I know the guy that they had tied up and everything.
Q  Despite this danger that you are talking about, you took it on yourself, once you saw this girl, to go and speak to her and interrogate her about the MacDonald case.  Is that correct?
A  See, I didn’t--I didn’t--I didn’t just walk up to her and start talking to her about the Mac-Donald case.
Q  I understand that, but you did, in fact, interrogate her about the MacDonald case, didn’t you?
A  Well, you know, yes.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.  Wait, yes, I do have one for the benefit of the hearing.

Q  Would you define the term “busted”?
A  It means arrested.
Q  Arrested?
A  Right.
Q  Then it doesn’t mean, for instance, convicted by a court?  It means--
A  It means just picked up.

CPT SOMERS:  I see.  Nothing further.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I just want some information about this newspaper--the names from yester-day’s paper to clarify the record.  I will delay it if you have any questions.

COL ROCK:  I have some questions.  Go ahead.

MR. SEGAL:  If you will, sir, you may ask your questions and give me a moment to have someone check the article.

COL ROCK:  All right.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Posey, do you know the last name of this girl?  Helen’s last name?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you know whether Helen is her actual name or does she go by other names?

WITNESS:  She goes by several names, different names.

COL ROCK:  What are the other names?

WITNESS:  Well, like, I’ve heard her called Mary, Mary a lot of times, but Helen was mostly what I heard her called by.  I can’t remember offhand what other names I’ve heard.

COL ROCK:  Where did you see her night before last?

WITNESS:  At the Village Shoppe in Haymount, right outside, you know, by the two ice cream trucks there.

COL ROCK:  What was she wearing night before last?

WITNESS:  Black slacks with a black vest with a white shirt, you know.

COL ROCK:  Did she seem to be of cheerful disposition, or sad or--

WITNESS:  Well, you know, earlier when I come into the Village Shoppe she was sitting over drinking her Coke by herself, you know, and she was kind of to herself then, and one guy came and spoke to her, so I just sat down at the other table, had a Coke, and then she got up and left, you know, so I got up and left and then I come back thirty or forty minutes later and went back in and had another Coke and she wasn’t there, you know.  So I started back out the door and she was coming around the trucks, you know, and was going in.  There was a water puddle between us, she walked on one side and I walked on the other and I says, “Hey, how are you doing?” you know, and she stopped, you know, and I said, “Have you seen Paul lately?”  See, Paul is a good friend of mine and he was a real good friend of hers, you know, and we started talking about Paul, and then we sat down by the truck, you know, talking about an hour, I guess.

COL ROCK:  Now, that’s Paul Bowman you are referring to?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you know where Paul lives?

WITNESS:  Oklahoma City is his, you know, his permanent address.  I mean that’s where his relatives are and everything.

COL ROCK:  Is he in Fayetteville now?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  I see.  You don’t know the specific address in Oklahoma?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Was Paul in the military service?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, he got discharged.  He was in the 82nd Airborne.

COL ROCK:  Do you know what unit in the 82nd?

WITNESS:  No, sir, he was a radio operator.

COL ROCK:  Do you know what date he was discharged?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you know the approximate month?

WITNESS:  It was in--I think it was January the 14th.

COL ROCK:  How long did he remain in Fayetteville after his discharge?  Do you have any idea?

WITNESS:  Well, he left, you know, Fayetteville and went to Oklahoma City.  He stayed may-be a week or two and then he come back.

COL ROCK:  And how long did he remain in the Fayetteville area after he returned, so far as you know?

WITNESS:  Maybe a month or two.  He used to live in the back apartment, you know, but he moved out and he was living on--- and I think when he got discharged he came back and stayed a month or two after that.

COL ROCK:  When was the last time you saw him?  Can you give an approximate date?

WITNESS:  Well, I saw him about three or four days after we had a discussion about, by the fence, and I saw him come in in a pick up truck to pick up a TV or something, and that was the last time I saw him.

COL ROCK:  So then would you say sometimes towards the end of February was the last time you saw him?

(Witness nodded in the affirmative.)

COL ROCK:  When you talked with Helen night before last, and you were outside the Village Shoppe, was there anyone else present at the time you were talking with her?

WITNESS:  Well, at first, you know, it was just her and I, and then her boyfriend passed by.

COL ROCK:  Now, which boyfriend?  Is this a new boyfriend?

WITNESS:  No, this is the same one.

COL ROCK:  Paul Bowman?

WITNESS:  No, Paul Bowman wasn’t her boyfriend.  He was just a friend of ours.

COL ROCK:  I see, just a friend, okay.

WITNESS:  He was married.

COL ROCK:  Who is her boyfriend?

WITNESS:  The only name I know him by is Jim.  He drives a yellow Plymouth.

COL ROCK:  ’65, I believe you said.

WITNESS:  Either a ’64 or ’65, I am not sure.

COL ROCK:  Okay, and what did Jim have to say during the course of the conversation, when you were talking to Helen?

WITNESS:  Well, he passed by--you see, this was about forty-five minutes--we’d been there about forty-five minutes this time talking and he pulled up, you know, and he asked me, you know, if I wanted to tab out on acid that night, and I said no, I told him no, and then they started talking, he started talking to her about a girl that got busted Sunday in Spring Lake. They were bringing this shipment down and they got busted at Spring Lake, and he asked had she seen a certain party, and she said no, and he said, “Well, he owes me two hundred bucks,” and he says, “If he don’t have the money, I am going to cut his throat when I find him.”  And it was for, you know, buying drugs I take it.  He didn’t say.

COL ROCK:  Was he in the car all this time?

WITNESS:  Right.  He pulled up right beside the truck.

COL ROCK:  How often have you been awakened at four a.m. to observe the actions of the people in the apartment across the way from you?

WITNESS:  I have never awoken that time before.  Just one time.

COL ROCK:  Did you ever see any males at the apartment wearing parts of military uniform?

WITNESS:  Well, not, you know, I’d seen them, a lot of them in their uniforms, complete uni-forms.

COL ROCK:  Complete uniforms?

WITNESS:  Yeah, but they were these confederate, you know, jackets, and in fact I’ve seen one dressed completely in a confederate uniform one day, but the colored guy, he used to wear a confederate jacket all the time.

COL ROCK:  Referring back to Helen’s apparel, what color boots did she wear?

WITNESS:  She had a pair of white--they were sort of like pat--

COL ROCK:  Leatherette?

WITNESS:  Patent, they were kind of shiny.

COL ROCK:  And what color hat?

WITNESS:  White.

COL ROCK:  Could you describe the approximate length of the hair by showing where it might fall relative your own body?

WITNESS:  Her real hair?  It came down to about right here.

COL ROCK:  And how about the blonde wig, if you remember it?

WITNESS:  It come down to about right here.

MR. SEGAL:  May we indicate for the record where?

COL ROCK:  The brunette, approximately halfway on the shoulders.  The blonde wig extend-ing eight inches below the Adam’s apple.
    Have you ever been in the service?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Where were you discharged?

WITNESS:  Fort Bragg.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions at this time.  Does either counsel?

CPT SOMERS:  I do not, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  In regard to the newspaper article referred to yesterday, are you referring to an article about the trial of a James Ingland,  I-n-g-l-a-n-d?
A  Yes.
Q  Is that the trial you were referring to?
A  (Witness nodded in the affirmative.)
Q  He was charged with kidnapping and attempted killing of a Richard Fortner?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you know those people?
A  Yes, sir.  See, Richard Fortner, you know, he used to come over there, you know, until--he’d come about a week before the guy got busted, you know, and so they thought he was the one who informed on him.  The reason I know it was him, because my father-in-law, he has a Triumph 650 CC motorcycle, and he sold it to Richard Fortner, and my mother-in-law and father-in-law, you know, they used to stay--they’d see him over there, like one day he was over there mopping the floors, and they saw him.
Q  What about James Ingland?  Did you know him or see him at all?
A  I--if I saw him, I could tell him.  But other than that just by the name I can’t tell.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all.

COL ROCK:  Well, I have one further question.  Did you ask Helen what her current address is?

WITNESS:  You know, I asked her where she was staying, and she said that she was just bumming around.

Col Somers:  Nothing further, sir.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Posey, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any other per-son, other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand, sir?

(Witness nodded in the affirmative.)

COL ROCK:  You are excused, and thank you for appearing today.

MR. SEGAL:  May I just state in Mr. Posey’s presence that I this morning requested before he entered the room, requested all parties and persons with regard to this investigation to use the utmost precaution to protect his identity and his address, so that he will not have any fears by himself or his wife.

COL ROCK:  You can be assured that we will do all within our power to respect your desires.  You are excused.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you very much, Mr. Posey.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  We have a very short witness that we could dispose of.  He is a personal friend of the family of Captain MacDonald and he has a communication from Mrs. MacDonald that we want read.  I don’t think it will take very long, sir.

COL ROCK:  Okay, fine.

MR. SEGAL:  Mr. Robert Stern.

(Mr. Robert Stern was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn, and testified as fol-lows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Stern, what us your full name and address, sir?
A  My name is Robert Kent Stern, S-t-e-r-n.  1 Great Oaks Road, New Hope, Pennsylvania.
Q  And what is your business occupation, sir?
A  I am an executive of a computer firm.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Robert R. MacDonald?
A  I’ve known him for twenty-one years.
Q  What was the nature of your knowledge of having come to know him?
A  It was family relationship.  I was--my wife and I have been close personal friends of the entire family, and their mother and their late father, and we have had a fairly close relation-ship through the years.
Q  Did you know the wife of Captain MacDonald, Mrs. MacDonald, Colette MacDonald?
A  I did.
Q  How long have you known Colette MacDonald?
A  Probably known her for twelve years.
Q  How did you first come to meet her?
A  I met her in the MacDonald home on one of our numerous visits.  We visited there often, stayed overnight.
Q  Was she then married to Captain MacDonald?
A  No, she was friend of his at that time.
Q  Do you know where Mrs. MacDonald lived before her marriage to Captain MacDonald?
A  I’ve never been to her home, no.
Q  Did she live in the same community as Captain MacDonald lived?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you have occasion to be in contact with Captain and Mrs. MacDonald during the years of their marriage up until February 17th, 1970?
A  On numerous occasions.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit with them?
A  Yes, both--not at their home, but their parents’ home, and in our home.
Q  Did you know the MacDonald children?
A  Yes.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife, Colette?
A  I would say that he was a very devoted and affectionate husband.
Q  And what was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife?
A  He was--
Q  I mean his children?
A  I think he was a very devoted father, also.
Q  What was Colette’s attitude toward Captain MacDonald?
A  I’d say it was on a similar plane.  I think they were very devoted and affectionate, a cou-ple who were concerned for each other, who were concerned about their life together, and I think it was a rather idyllic relationship.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward her children and how did she handle disci-plining her children?
A  She was very devoted to her children.  She was--took great delight in them.  I don’t think that I can comment on her--the disciplining relationship, something that you really don’t pay attention to.  I think--I think their relationship was good.  I never saw her abuse or use cor-poral punishment on the children.  I never took any note of that aspect.
Q  How recently, before February 17th 1970, had you had any contact with the MacDonald family?
A  In June we had visited the family.
Q  June, 1969?
A  June 1969 we had visited the family on Long Island and I’d seen the entire family then, and on the weekend of July 4th 1969, after Jeff had gone to basic training, Colette and the chil-dren came and spent the weekend at our house.  That was the last time that we saw Colette and the babies.
Q  Did you have any communications with Mrs. MacDonald thereafter?
A  Yes, we had several letters and the last of which was at Christmas time which was mailed to us from Fort Bragg in December.

MR. SEGAL:  I ask to have marked a photostatic copy of a document which we will identify as being the duplicate of an original.

COL ROCK:  Do you wish to show it to the--we’ll mark it after the government has seen it.

(The document was examined by counsel for the government.)

Q  At this time I’ve handed you a photostatic copy of a document.  Can you identify what that photostat is of--what original document?
A  This is a--a Xerox copy of the Christmas card which we received from Jeff and, written by Colette.  There’s a note in it.
Q  Excuse me.  You say it was written by Colette.  Were you familiar with the handwriting of Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes.
Q  Is that handwriting there her handwriting?
A  I believe it to be so.
Q  Would you be good enough to read the message contained therein?
A  “We are having a great all expense paid vacation in the Army.  Looks as if Jeff will be here in North Carolina for the entire two years, which is an immense load off our minds.  Life has never been so normal or as much fun.  Jeff is home every day by five, and most days, even comes home for lunch.  I am taking a literature course at North Carolina State University and have to read two books a week, so consequently I haven’t written to a soul since we’ve moved, but I do think of you.  Oh, by the way we are having such a good time that we are expecting a son in July.  Cheers, Jeff, Colette, Kim and Kris.”

MR. SEGAL:  May that be marked, sir?  That’s all I have.  Cross-examine.

(The document was handed to Colonel Rock.)

COL ROCK:  Proceed, counselor.  Accused Exhibit A-38, Christmas card to the Sterns, is ac-cepted into evidence.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mr. Stern, did you have an occasion to see Captain MacDonald or know of his being in New York area after June of 1969?
A  No.
Q  Do you consider yourself a close personal friend of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes.
Q  And were you also a close friend of his wife?
A  Well, I would say yes.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  Just one very brief matter.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  How would you characterize Mrs. MacDonald’s emotional stability while under pressure?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  That’s beyond the scope of the cross-examination, and it appears that the defense counsel intends to exceed the scope of cross-examination in all these witnesses.

MR. SEGAL:  I agree it is beyond the scope.  I intended to hurry this witness through so we could adjourn.  I will withdraw the question.

COL ROCK:  The objection is overruled, since I raised the possibility the other day in my cross-examination of Doctor Sadoff.  You may proceed.

Q  Mr. Stern, how would you characterize Colette MacDonald’s emotional stability?
A  I’m not an expert on emotional stability, but as far as any observations that I’ve had, she was an extremely stable person.
Q  Did you ever see her vent to frustration by great anger or violent outburst of any sort?
A  Never.

MR. SEGAL:  Nothing further, thank you.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Stern, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person oth-er than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  You are excused, thank you.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  Does the counsel for the accused have any further business at this time?

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir, it would be appropriate for recess.

COL ROCK:  We will recess until 1330 this afternoon.

(The hearing was recessed at 1130 hours, 13 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1417 hours, 13 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were in attendance at the recess are currently in the hearing room.
    Does the government have any material to present representing interviews with Mrs. Jan Snyder?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, we do have an interview work sheet and it is now available to you.

COL ROCK:  Thank you.  A copy has been handed to the counsel for the accused and to the investigating officer.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time I would like to have marked as an accused exhibit, the copy of the interview work sheet representing an interview with Janet Snyder, wife of Kenneth Robert Snyder, taken at 1055 hours on 17 February 1970, and have that marked as an accused ex-hibit, sir, and received.

COL ROCK:  Accused’s Exhibit 39, interview work sheet of Janet Snyder, 1055 hours, 17 Feb-ruary 1970.  Does counsel for the accused have any further witnesses at this time?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, Mr. Kassab, please.

(Mr. Alfred Kassab was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn, and testified as fol-lows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and address for the records?
A  Alfred Kassab, 22 Bonnie Lane, Stoney Brook, New York.
Q  Would you spell your last name please?
A  K-a-s-s-a-b.
Q  Would you state what relationship if any you are to Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  I am his father-in-law.
Q  And are you the father of his wife, Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were you her natural father?
A  No, I am her stepfather.
Q  May I ask when you and Mrs. Kassab were married.
A  Fourteen years ago.
Q  And how old was Colette MacDonald at that time?
A  Twelve.
Q  And how long did Colette MacDonald live in the Kassab family home with you and your wife?
A  As long as we were married, fourteen years.
Q  When did you first come in contact with Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  Approximately fifteen years ago.
Q  And at what age was Captain MacDonald at that time?
A  About twelve, eleven, twelve.
Q  How did you first meet Captain MacDonald?
A  I met him in--now, my wife--she wasn’t my wife--I met him at her home as he was visiting my daughter.
Q  And over the next few years did you have occasion to see him again?
A  Oh, quite often.
Q  What high school did your daughter attend?
A  Patchogue High School.
Q  Patchogue Long Island, New York?
A  Right.
Q  And do you know what high school Captain MacDonald attended?
A  He also attended Patchogue High School.
Q  During the years that your daughter was in high school, did you have occasion to see Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  Yes, quite often.
Q  Would you describe to the investigating officer the circumstances and how you came to see Captain MacDonald during that period of time?
A  Well, Captain MacDonald used to come and see my daughter and there was a period in there where they were on the outs and Captain MacDonald still used to come to our house and he used to mow the lawn in the summertime and shovel the driveway in the wintertime regardless of the fact that they weren’t going together and he’d stop by every once in a while and leave her a gift on the back steps and leave.
Q  How often would you say you saw Jeff MacDonald during high school years?
A  About once a week, at least.
Q  Was your daughter actually in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship with him part of that high school period or all of that period?
A  Most of it yes.
Q  Now you indicate that Colette and Jeff were on the outs at some of time, are you indicat-ing that there were some arguments or strong disagreements between them?
A  No, I think it’s probably one of those teenage things that happen to most young people in their 15 to16 year age group, right in there some place.
Q  Were there any violent arguments that were between them at anytime?
A  Never to my knowledge.
Q  Did you ever hear Jeff MacDonald raise his voice to your daughter in anger during that period of time?
A  Never at any time.
Q  Never at any time? Are you referring to the entire period--
A  From that day to this day.
Q  How well did you come to know your stepdaughter?
A  Well, I would say that Colette and I were as close as any one could possibly be with his own natural daughter.
Q  What was--did your relationship with Colette include her discussing things that troubled her or problems that were on her mind?
A  At times, yes.
Q  Was she a child who shared her concerns or anxieties with you and her mother?
A  Well, not completely.  I would say no, she didn’t.  She--if she had any problems that we didn’t know--well, I will say that if ever she had a  problem and she didn’t tell you about it, you could see it on her face.  It would be apparent in her voice immediately.
Q  Was she the kind of person who could hide things from you?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  I’m referring to her real emotions or--
A  She was not capable of it.
Q  Did she tend to try and suppress her real feelings about situations from you?
A  No, I don’t think so.  I don’t think it was a matter of suppression.  I think it was that--I have never known her to have any problems particularly, but I would venture to say that had she had a problem that as I said a few minutes ago, I would have known it immediately.  But with her, it would have been a matter of if she had a problem she would have related it.  She didn’t like to--if she had a problem say in school with her studies of that type she would not come out and say it, but you could tell that there was something wrong.
Q  Now, were your stepdaughter, Colette and Jeff MacDonald of he same age?
A  Yes sir, within a month I think.
Q  What year was Colette born in?
A  I--I don’t have it off the back of my head.
Q  That’s all right. Now when your daughter graduated from high school, what did she do with herself?
A  She attended Skidmore College, Skidmore University in Saratoga Springs.
Q  New York State?
Q  Yes.
Q  Do you know what school Captain MacDonald went to?
A  Yes, he went to Princeton University.
Q  Did Colette and Jeff continue to have any contact during the period of time that she was at Skidmore and he was at Princeton?
A  Well, I know from Colette that she had spoken to Jeff and corresponded with him the first year and the second year they were going together.
Q  And you say in the second year that they were going together, what do you mean by that?
A  They were boyfriend and girlfriend relationship.
Q  Did Colette have occasions to come home to Long Island during vacations or on weekends at all?
A  Yes, she’d always come home weekends, most weekends that she had--when she felt she could come down and she could afford it.
Q  And did Captain MacDonald ever visit your home during his early college years?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what was the nature of the relationship between Jeff and Colette at that time?
A  Boyfriend–girlfriend.
Q  Now when did they marry?  In what year of their college education?
A  The second year after--at the end of the second year if I am not mistaken. I may be wrong there. It could have been at the beginning of the third year. It was right in there.
Q  And when they married where did Colette go to reside?
A  In Princeton.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit your stepdaughter and son-in-law while they were married and together at Princeton?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  On more than one occasion?
A  On two occasions.
Q  Did they have occasion to visit with you?
A  Yes, they came to visit with us. I couldn’t say how many times, but I know I went to Princeton with my wife twice.
Q  What did you observe about the relationship between Colette and Jeff when they were first married and living together at Princeton, New Jersey?
A  Well, they were like a couple of pigs on ice.  I’ll put it that way as an expression.  They had a home.  Ah, since they were--Jeff was struggling through college--they rented this very large house and had maybe seven or eight bedrooms and they acted as chaperones for girls who came on the weekends to visit the boys at the University, and readied up beds and this helped to pay for their rent.
Q  From what you are saying could you give us some indication of what their financial status was during this period of life?
A  Well, it was very close for them, you know Jeff was getting loans from the bank to pay for his college education, and it is pretty hard for a man working his way through college all on his own.
Q  In addition to the money they earned from renting out the beds in their house, was there any other way that either Colette or Jeff was earning money during that period of time?
A  Well, Colette babysat for one, and Colette also typed papers for other students, and they earned money that way.
Q  Now how long was Captain MacDonald at Princeton University after they were married?
A  Three years.
Q  No, after they were married?
A  No--it was over two years and not three years.
Q  Then Captain MacDonald left Princeton after three years there?
A  Yes sir.
Q  And where did he go then?
A  He went to Northwestern University in Chicago.
Q  Did he go there as an undergraduate?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Undergraduate school or medical school?
A  Medical School.
Q  And did Colette go with him and set up housekeeping there?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did they live when they were at Northwestern?
A  They took an apartment, the address I don’t know.
Q  They had an apartment in the Evanston area?
A  I don’t know this.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit with Colette and Jeff while he was in medical school?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did the MacDonalds come to visit you in Long Island on any occasions?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you observe about the nature of their relationship at that time while they were in medical school?
A  It was no different at that time than it was at any other time. They were happy.
Q  Had the MacDonald’s children been born at the time they were in medical school?
A  One was born, yes.
Q  Which one was that?
A  Kimmie, Kimberly.
Q  And was the second child born while they were in medical school?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, did the addition of the first child appear to add any stress or cause an emotional strain to show on Colette or Jeff?
A  No, sir. Colette wanted five.
Q  Wanted five children?
A  That was always her statement.
Q  What was her attitude toward her first child in terms of her feelings?
A  For actually being a mother for the first time, I don’t think anyone could have been happi-er.  Let’s put it that way.
Q  Was the second child a child that was wanted at the time it was had?
A  Absolutely.
Q  Did you observe Jeff relating to his children while he was in medical school?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you describe his attitude and conduct toward his children?
A  Well, to the best of my knowledge--let’s put it this way.  To the best of my knowledge, whenever I was present there he would spend more with the children than he did with either myself or my wife because of the fact that his time was completely taken up with studies and any time he was in the living room he would be playing with the children and at the same time talking to us.
Q  Now after Jeff graduated from Northwestern Medical School, where did he go?
A  He went to Columbia University to serve his in--Columbia Presbyterian Hospital to serve his internship.
Q  And did they live in the New York area?
A  In New Jersey, local Jersey, right across the bridge from New York.
Q  Did you and your wife have occasion to see Colette and Jeff during that period of time of the internship?
A  Yes, and my wife more frequently than I.  My wife would go over at a minimum of two to three times a week.
Q  Did the MacDonalds have occasion to visit you at Patchogue on Long Island?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you observe about their relationship during that period of time while he was in-terning at Columbia Presbyterian?
A  It was as I said before, their relationship never changed at anytime that I ever noticed.
Q  When you say it never changed, what was that relationship? How would you describe it?
A  To the point where they were really an exceedingly happily married couple and with the second child they seemed to be happier yet.
Q  Now when Jeff finished his internship at Columbia Presbyterian where did he go?
A  The day he finished his internship he reported to the Army in Texas.
Q  And do you know approximately how long he was in Texas?
A  It seemed to me it was four weeks, but--
Q  Thereafter, where was he assigned?
A  In Georgia, I think at the jump school.
Q  Fort Benning?
A  That could be it.  I’m not sure.
Q  And following jump school where was he?
A  He came here.
Q  Fort Bragg?
A  That’s right.
Q  Now, when did Mrs. MacDonald joined him, join her husband in the military service?
A  I drove her here myself.  If I am not mistaken it was in October of last year.  The exact date--
Q  October 1969?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you maintain contact with Jeff and Colette when they were both together here at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes, sir, I called on a minimum of once a week.
Q  Did you speak with your stepdaughter during that period of time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit them here?
A  Yes, sir.  Well, aside from the first time when I brought her down here with the children, my wife and I were both down here last Christmas, for Christmas.
Q  December 1969?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did either Jeff or Colette have a chance to visit you on Long Island during the period they were here at Fort Bragg?
A  Captain MacDonald did, yes, sir.
Q  When was that? 
A  He came back for a weekend on business, personal business of some kind and he stopped in to say hello to us.  But his wife was not with him.
Q  How long were you here at Fort Bragg in December of ‘69 with Colette and Jeff?
A  It was either three or four days.
Q  And would you describe for the investigating officer how your daughter seemed to be in terms of her married life, married relationship?
A  Well, I would say that even though I’ve used ecstatic expressions to prior terms, I think they were considerably happier here than they had ever been.
Q  And why was that?
A  Well, I would think that it would be the less financial problems, from the point of view that they had a home.  They--Jeff came home most nights which he’s never been able to do be-fore.  He had more time with the children, more time to devote to Colette and they seemed  to--of course, you can imagine a wife with a husband in internship and medical school get to see not too much of her husband.  Here she saw him almost every night and she was ecsta-tic about that.
Q  Did anything of an unusual nature happen during your Christmas visit here at Fort Bragg?
A  Yeah, this was well unusual.  Christmas morning, at about six o’clock--I’m an early riser--I was up walking around and Jeff said to me, “I’ve got a surprise,” he said for the kids for Christmas and I want you to come down and take a look.  So he and I got dressed and left the house before my wife and daughter and grandchildren got up and we drove down the road three or four miles and he showed me a pony that he had bought for the children.
Q  Did anyone know about that?
A  No one but me.
Q  No one in the house?
A  No one in the household.  I think, if I remember correctly, a fellow officer on the base helped them build the stall for the pony.
Q  And what happened when you went down to visit the horse?
A  Well, we went down to where the horse was being kept and when I saw the horse I thought it was terrific for the children.  Pony, I should say, and then we went back to the house and Jeff preceded to tell Colette that he had ordered a gift for the children for Christ-mas and that since Sears & Roebuck fouled it up, that there was one in the window and if we’d all get in the car we’d go down to see this thing so at least they could see what they were getting for Christmas.  And we drove down the road and then we turned off and Colette didn’t understand why we were turning off the road and not going straight down to Sears & Roebuck and he said, “Well I got to stop here and pick something up.”  And we drove down to the corral and we all got out of the car and he said, “I want you to see something over here.”  And we took them over there and showed them the pony.
Q  What was Colette’s view of the gift for the children?
A  To the best of my recollection, she cried for half an hour.
Q  Now when did you leave your step-daughter and son-in-law in December?
A  It was the day after Christmas.
Q  Did you--what was her attitude as far as family relationship at the time you left her?
A  They were very--as I said, they were the happiest I’ve ever seen them.
Q  When you indicated that Colette cried on seeing the horse, was that--as far as you could tell--was that because she was sad or disappointed?
A  No, Colette being, always was a sensitive child, and anything that made her very happy, she cried.
Q  Did you then have contacts with your stepdaughter and son-in-law between December and February 17, 1970?
A  Yes, sir, I called, as I said before, a minimum of once a week, sometimes twice, and as a matter of fact, I spoke to her Friday prior to February 17th and on February the 15th, al-though I didn’t actually talk to her, I was on the other phone while my wife was talking to her.
Q  So you overheard the conversation?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did your daughter seem to you when you spoke to her on the very last date, that is February 15th--Sunday evening?
A  During the day sometime, yes.  She sounded no different than she had ever sounded.
Q  Did you--did she give any indication that there was any marital problem between herself and Captain MacDonald?
A  None whatsoever.
Q  Did she give you any indication that she was having any difficulty with the children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did she give any indication that she was suffering from a depression from her pregnancy?

CPT SOMERS: I object to this. He has--he is leading much too much.  I object to that ques-tion.

MR. SEGAL:  It relates to a specific characteristic.  I think we can understand what we are dealing with here.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.

A  No.  Let me back up on that question and answer you from this point of view--that I have stated previously that my daughter had expressed her wish for five children, and that this one was her third and she was ecstatic about the idea, even though she knew and I knew that her having children was a very dangerous thing.
Q  Why was that?
A  Because she’d had two prior Caesareans, and the last one in Chicago, if it hadn’t been for Captain MacDonald she would have died in the recovery room.
Q  Would you describe the incident to the investigating officer?
A  Well, that incident was related to me by both my daughter and Captain MacDonald.  I wasn’t there, but she had been, the Cesarean had been performed and she was in the recov-ery room and since Captain MacDonald had access to the hospital as a medical student, he went to visit her in the recovery room, and upon entry he found that she had hardly any pulse and no blood pressure whatsoever, and he went quick and got the surgeon and they operated immediately again and saved her life.  There had been--something happened to one of the blood vessels, I’m not really being technical. I really don’t know what happened, some-thing along this line had happened.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald ever have occasion to express to you his feelings about the marital relationship at the time you saw them in December, or in any way show you his feelings?
A  Well, the man spent most of his time playing with his children all the time when he was home.  Every time you turned around, he had one of the girls playing with him.  At least, let’s put it this way, more so that most people I know.
Q  Did it ever appear to you that he was neglectful and not attentive to his wife, your step-daughter Colette?
A  No, sir, he spent--well, he was the type of man that, who would come home at least once a week with a gift of some kind.
Q  For whom?
A  For my daughter, and I would say that he bought, personally all by himself, approximately 80 percent of her clothes as surprises for her.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude towards the Army and his service in the Army?
A  Well Captain MacDonald, to the best of my knowledge from talking to him and seeing his deportment, he was exceedingly proud of belonging to the Green Berets.
Q  By the way, have you ever served in the Army, sir?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was your--
A  I was in the Canadian Army in World War II.
Q  How long were you in the Army sir?
A  From September 3rd, 1939 until 1945.
Q  What type of service did you have, sir?
A  I was in the Canadian Intelligence, Military Intelligence.
Q  Were you an American citizen or a Canadian citizen?
A  I was a Canadian citizen.
Q  And are you a Canadian citizen now?
Q  I am an American citizen.
Q  When did you become an American citizen?
A  I moved to the United States in 1946 and became a citizen in 1948.
Q  If Captain MacDonald was free to leave Fort Bragg today, would you accept him into your home, sir?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine?

WITNESS:  May I add one thing to that?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, you may.

WITNESS:  If I had another daughter, I’d still want the same son-in-law.

COL ROCK:  Let’s recess for five minutes, I think.

(The hearing recessed at 1444 hours, 13 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1450 hours, 13 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties that were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, including the witness.  I advise you, sir, again, that you are under oath.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mr. Kassab, I’d like to say that I know this is difficult for you, and I won’t draw it out long.
A  Thank you.
Q  Some of the things I’m going to ask unfortunately will be fairly personal, but I will try to keep it brief.  Now, you’ve used the phrase which I don’t really understand, and the phrase was “like pigs on ice,”  however, I think what you mean to say is that, in describing the re-lationship between Colette and Jeff that they were very happy together and devoted to one another.  Is that what you are saying?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When was Kimberly born?  Do you know that, sir?
A  I couldn’t give you a date, no.
Q  Could you estimate?
A  Well, she’d be about six years old now, so it would be approximately ’63.
Q  And where was Jeff and Colette at the time?
A  In Princeton.
Q  As I understand it you have never heard Captain MacDonald raise his voice to Colette.  Is that correct?
A  No, sir.
Q  You are saying--never in anger?
A  Well, that’s what I mean.
Q  Now let me say, before I ask you this question that I regret having to ask it, but it does bear directly on the relationship of Captain MacDonald and Colette.  Under what circumstanc-es did they get married?
A  Could I have an explanation of that?  What do you mean, sir?
Q  Did they have to get married?
A  No, sir.
Q  How long after they were married was Kimberly born?
A  Approximately seven months.
Q  Now, sir, when was it that Captain MacDonald visited in New York for the weekend?  I gather you say he did that sometime after June of last year?
A  Oh, yes, it was--it is very difficult for me to say exactly when it was.  I really have no means of knowing, except that I do know that it--it would have had been after Colette was down here, which would have been after October.
Q  And before you visited?
A  Yes, sir, between October and December, somewhere in there.
Q  Did Mrs. Kassab have occasion to visit with the children after Christmas at any time?
A  No, sir.  You are talking about in person?
Q  Yes.
A  No, sir.
Q  Now, as I understand what you said, sir, you detected no change in the attitudes and re-lationship between Colette and Jeff in the phone conversations just prior to the deaths?
A  That’s correct.
Q  And I presume then as an actual concomitant, you are saying that the relationship re-mained the same and remained happy so far as you can tell?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was the last contact you had with them, that is with Colette?
A  Personal or on the phone?
Q  On the phone.
A  I spoke to Colette on the phone on the Friday prior to February the 17th.  I was on the phone when she talked to her mother on Sunday prior to February 17th, however, I didn’t talk, because I was on the phone, and I just listened and let her mother talk because I talked to her quite often so I just let her mother talk.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further.

COL ROCK:  I have a couple of questions, Mr. Kassab, very briefly.
    Do you have any other stepchildren as a result of this marriage?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, one.  A boy.

COL ROCK:  Of what age approximately?

WITNESS:  He’s thirty-one, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did Colette’s real father die or was this the result of--

WITNESS:  No, he died, sir.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.
    Mr. Kassab, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person outside of this hearing, other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  You are ex-cused, sir.

WITNESS:  Thank you.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

(The hearing reopened at 1107 hours, 14 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties who were in attendance at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  I believe at this time the counsel for the accused has an announcement to make.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I would at this time that we defer the commencement of the cross-examina-tion of Captain MacDonald because of the unexpected availability here of a civilian witness, who has agreed to come in on his own, and whom we cannot compel to remain.  And while I recognize it is somewhat out of order, I think that the--in view of the fact of the availability of this person at this time, that it will not interrupt government cross-examination since it has not commenced.  I would ask your permission to call Mr. Sutton at this time.

COL ROCK:  Does the government agree to this procedure?

CPT SOMERS:  The government has no objection to it, sir.

COL ROCK:  However, before the new witness is called, does the government have available for me copies of the taped testimony of Captain MacDonald on 6 April of this year?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I have copies of the taped interview with Captain MacDonald.  I hand you now two documents, one representing the morning session of that interview, another repre-senting the afternoon session of that interview, and a third document representing the com-ments by counsel for both sides with respect to certain questions in that testimony.

COL ROCK:  Have these documents been shown to counsel for the accused?

CPT SOMERS:  They have, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  After you have marked the third document, sir, I’d like to just amplify on the sig-nificance of that.

COL ROCK:  Surely.  Government Exhibit 101, 35 pages of morning interview with accused.  Government Exhibit 102, 38 page transcript of afternoon interview with accused.  Govern-ment Exhibit 103, stipulation of fact between opposing counsel regarding April 6 interview.

CPT BEALE:  Now, Mr. Segal, I am going to treat this as a stipulation of fact.  It’s really not, but we’ll treat it as such, and appearing thereon there does not appear to be three signa-tures, the most important of which is the accused’s signature, and therefore I desire to ask Captain MacDonald whether or not he does concur in this?  

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Captain MacDonald, have you had an opportunity to read this two-page docu-ment entitled comments by counsel on statement of yourself on 6 April?

CPT MACDONALD:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  And do you, in effect, concur in the comments contained therein?

CPT MACDONALD:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Very well, then this document will be accepted as such.

COL ROCK:  I believe also that counsel for the accused wished to make some comments con-cerning Government Exhibit 103.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, if I may.  I would like to indicate for the record that A-103 was devel-oped in lieu of the necessity of bringing in all three of the CID investigators, who participated in that interrogation of 6 April, as a result of mutual agreeable conferences between counsel for the government and the accused which was held with the knowledge of the investigating officer.  An attempt was made to treat with certain statements made by the investigators, in that two-part interview, so that it should be properly received and understood by all those who may have occasion to review this record, that the statements made by the investigators and certain enumerate circumstances were not to be considered actual facts or true facts; in view of the circumstances that occasionally the investigators may find it desirable to state certain things to a person being interrogated, simply as part of their technique, sometimes it may be inaccurate, sometimes it may be based upon erroneous information, and other occa-sions it may be based simply upon misapprehension of the investigator, and to avoid any nec-essity for prolonging this proceeding, I think to almost needless extremes, this document was developed in place of calling those investigators.  I think that it represents a fair commentary by both sides in that matter.

COL ROCK:  This will be noted.  Proceed, counsel, with your next witness.

MR. SEGAL:  I call Mr. Sutton, please.

(Mr. John Donald Sutton was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and address for the record, please?
A  John Donald Sutton, 110 Spring Avenue, Spring Lake.
Q  And is that in Fayetteville, North Carolina area?
A  Spring Lake.
Q  North Carolina?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Mr. Sutton, on February 17th, where were you in the evening?
A  What day was February 17th?
Q  February 17th was Tuesday.
A  It’s the Tuesday following the Monday of this murder that I heard the people talking about
--I was in Fayetteville at Rick’s Lounge.
Q  And what was the name of the lounge?
A  Rick’s Lounge.
Q  Rick’s Lounge.  Where is Rick’s Lounge located?
A  On Hay Street, kind of across the street from the train station.
Q  In Fayetteville, North Carolina?
A  Right.
Q  Do you know, or are you familiar with the Fayetteville area?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know the Haymount section of Fayetteville?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How far is Rick’s Lounge from the Haymount section?
A  What part of the Haymount section?
Q  Well, I don’t think Haymount is that large?  How far did you have to go to get from the lounge to say that you were in Haymount area?
A  To the top of Haymount hill?
Q  Yes, sir.
A  Walking, I guess about--one, two, three--I’d say ten to fifteen minutes.  I’ve walked it before.
Q  Ten to fifteen minutes by walking?
A  Yes, sir, going up the hill, it is kinda fast going up the steps.
Q  Now about what time did you get to Rick’s Lounge on that Tuesday night?
A  I’d say six or seven o’clock.
Q  In the evening or morning?
A  Evening.
Q  Now something happened that you considered out of the ordinary that evening in Rick’s Lounge?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you keep your voice up and loud--do the best you can to explain to the investigat-ing officer.
A  Well, I seen--I was standing to the back of the bar, at the end of the bar, where it goes down.  I was just happened to be looking at the front door at the time that--a girl come in carrying a lighted candle, lit, and wearing a floppy hat, and it attracted my attention, you know, I hadn’t read no description about--what about this murder, who or what.  It just at-tracted my attention, you know.  I just looked over and I started walking that way to see what was going on, and this--some guy grabbed me, just pulled me over and started talking to me, and I kept trying to see who this was carrying this lighted candle.  You don’t see peo-ple walking around carrying a lighted candle, and some guy took her over to the side where the booths are, on the other side of the bar where there is nothing but booths, on that side.
Q  Now were there any other persons at the booths besides the girl and the person who took her over there?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now what else did you observe at that time?
A  Well, this guy kept talking to me, you know, and I kept glancing that way to see what was going on, and then I seen the girl sitting there had taken off the hat.  I didn’t see the hat no more.  This guy I was talking to was in a suit, kind of a dark colored suit.  He was kind of a young guy--I’d say 20 maybe 30--just a young guy.
Q  Did he have anything on his face that was special to help you describe him?
A  That I’m not positive of, but I was standing back.  I kept wondering what happened to the girl wearing the hat, you know.  I kept standing back at the bar wondering what was going on, you know, and this--I glanced and this girl was walking by me, the only girl that was on the side of the bar where this girl was walking with a floppy hat on, came walking by me, and I just glanced at her to see if I knew her.  And she had a--I’d never seen her before.  I just seen the side of her face and she walked by me, and she--something I distinctly drew my at-tention to her teeth.  Her mouth as half gaped open, just staring straight ahead you know, just looking straight ahead and walking, wasn’t looking to the left nor to the right, just walk-ing straight ahead.  I just kinda glanced at her to see if I knew her, you know, and I looked and her left arm--and I was standing on this side and she passed me down this way--looked like her arm had something dark all over it, like--
Q  Excuse me, Mr. Sutton.  When you say “dark all over it” you mean on the skin or the clothing?
A  On the skin of her arm.
Q  At that time could you identify what that was?
A  Well, I don’t know.  I don’t--there’s no way I could know what was on her arm.  It’s just unusually--you don’t see a girl walking around with oil all over her arm, and I just thought maybe it might be dried blood.  You see, I don’t know what it was.  I didn’t examine it and I don’t know what it was.
Q  From its appearance could it also have been paint?
A  Yes, sir, as far as--I didn’t get down and just look at it.
Q  What else did you observe about this girl--after she had--do, after she had walked past you?
A  I didn’t pay no more attention to her.
Q  Did you see her return again and sit at a table or a booth?
A  I didn’t pay no more attention to what happened to her.
Q  Now can you tell the investigating officer what this young woman was wearing?
A  No, I couldn’t swear to what she was wearing, to be--to tell you the truth.  I just glanced at her face.  I just done that to see if I knew her.
Q  Well, may I ask, was she wearing, if you recall, either dungarees or pants or a dress, or a skirt?  Anything of that nature--
A  She was wearing slacks of some sort.  Whether they were Levi’s, slack or any other type
--I know she was wearing slacks at that time.
Q  Did you see any other person at the booth where she had been taken by this man you de-scribed?
A  No.
Q  Did you see any other persons engaged in conversation, either with the girl or with the young man who had accosted her in the bar?
A  I seen this one guy--seemed like when she walked back there I walked towards the front of the bar, and there were two white guys standing in front of the bar, not at the bar, but just inside to the right of the doorway--
Q  But inside of Rick’s bar?
A  Right.
Q  All right.
A  And he was talking to her, and he--I just glanced at them, looked at them--I didn’t stand and stare at them, nothing like that, you know, curiosity, I wondered what was going on.  I thought it might have been a fight or something.
Q  You say he was talking to these two men?
A  Right.
Q  Who is the he you are referring to?
A  He was dressed in a suit.
Q  That’s the fellow that first grabbed the girl as she came in?
A  Possibly yes.  I’m not positive about it.  You see, I didn’t go around and define where eve-rybody was, but I didn’t know what was going on.
Q  Now is there anything you can tell us about the two persons that the man in the suit was talking to?  That is, can you tell us what race they were?
A  They were both white, and they seemed to be in early 20’s.
Q  Did anyone else talk to either the girl or the man or the man with the mustache who was talking to you?
A  When I started walking that way, when I first seen the girl came in with this lighted can-dle, he was--seemed to be talking to me.  You see, I’d never talked to him before.  He said--I don’t know why he wanted to talk to me.  He seemed to want to attract my attention or something.  That’s the idea I got.  Whether he was, I don’t know.
Q  I’m sorry.  Go right ahead.
A  And this girl walked by me--I noticed--I just looked back at her, right there when she passed, and seems like--I don’t know whether they were talking about me or someone else.  This one guy said--it seems--“Did he see you?”  I heard the other guy say, “Oh--he’s, don’t pay any attention to him, he’s all right.”  Something like that.  I don’t know the exact words he said, but it was something.  I just acted like I wasn’t paying any attention.
Q  Now I want to show you four pictures that were previously marked in this case as A-31, A-36, A-40 and A-41, and ask whether the drawings that are contained in these pictures re-semble any one of the people you saw in Rick’s bar that evening?
A  This one with the mustache, seems like I’ve seen him there before.
Q  Now that is A-36 you are talking about.  Now, when you say you think you’ve seen him before, does that resemble any of the persons in the bar that evening that you recall?
A  Seems like it does, but I can’t--I wouldn’t swear to it, I mean.
Q  I’m not asking you what it resembles; I can understand what you are saying.  Does he re-semble or doesn’t he resemble any person in the bar?
A  There was one there with a mustache that wore a suit.  He seemed to be the--he seemed like--you see a bunch of persons standing around, there’s always--talking to him about something.  Seems like he was a--with the group you know.
Q  Let me ask you this.  When did you learn about the killing at the MacDonald house?
A  I read the paper -  I’d heard someone talking about it that some people got killed over at Fort Bragg Tuesday, but I didn’t pay any attention to it that night.  So Wednesday I read the paper and I kept, couldn’t remember where I had seen someone wearing a hat carrying a candle.  That night I didn’t pay any more attention to it.  I just left it off.  And I kept thinking all week long where had I seen someone like that, and Thursday, Friday, I kept fusing this to-gether, where I had seen this, you know, and Saturday I finally figured out where I had seen all this.  And I called Scottie Sutherland of the CID--I knew him--he was in the CID--he lives out there, I told him to come up Sunday morning that I wanted to tell him something that I had seen, and I told him, you know, that I didn’t want to get involved, I said just leave my name out of it.  I’ll just tell you what I seen.
Q  And did you tell Mr. Sutherland about the incident in the bar as you have described it here this afternoon?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now did you ever talk to any other investigator from any military police or law enforcement agency about the things you saw in the bar?
A  No, about a week or so later, I don’t particularly remember how long it was, I called the FBI and asked them if they got the information on what I’d seen, and they said yes they had that information from the CID, that they were working with the CID in handling this case.
Q  Now, how did you come to call this information to my attention?
A  Well, I kept noticing the case in the paper and I thought that they would learn something about it, someone who’d seen it ’sides me, but I never did so I just called this reporter in Fayetteville.  I didn’t know how to try and get in touch with the attorneys, y’all, so I told him and he said I don’t want my name used in any way, but  get the information to him--I--I’ll see that they get it.  And he called me up, the other day and he was talking to me--that’s the first time I’d--
Q  Now if we may go back to Rick’s bar for a moment on the evening of the 17th, did you see any other unusual persons or some other person whose attention you were drawn to that particular evening?
A  Well, this colored boy that came in with them.
Q  With whom?
A  With these two guys standing at the door and this girl carrying a candle.  They were fol-lowing her.  And he was standing to the--the bar comes in--there’s a door here and the bar comes in close like that and goes down.  He was standing to the left of the door, and he was wearing a fatigue jacket.  When I walked up there, when I seen the girl with the candle, I walked up towards the front just to kinda see what was going on, and he was standing there in a fatigue jacket, wasn’t drinking, he was just standing there, behind the people sitting at the bar stools at the bar, just standing there looking, wasn’t paying attention to nobody, and he was wearing a fatigue jacket, and Sergeant’s stripes.  I couldn’t see exactly what they were, but I was wondering what’s a sergeant doing in town and wearing the fatigues, you know, something you never see.
Q  Did you observe anything else about this person?
A  Well, I noticed that--I’m not sure about this--but it looked like he might have had an old bruise or fresh bruise right above his left eye.  I was facing this way and he was standing here, and it looked like--I looked up to my right--and it looked like possibly a blue mark above his right eye, on his eyebrow, just to the side.
Q  Now you say you observed Sergeant’s stripes on his fatigue jacket.  Did the Sergeant stripes have any rockers on the bottom of it?
A  Well, I didn’t notice it then when he was standing there, I just kept watching him, kinda, when they left, and when he left I seen he had two rockers, as you call them, on the Ser-geant stripes.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you, Mr. Sutton.  I think the government may have some questions. Cross-examine.

CPT SOMERS:  I anticipate cross-examination to take a good fifteen or twenty minutes, sir, or more.

COL ROCK:  I believe you said he might have to go to work this afternoon?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, he has other plans and has indicated a substantial inconvenience.  I would be willing to sit providing it is agreeable to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK:  Go ahead.  I’ll probably have some questions too.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  What time of the evening was it that you first noticed this girl?
A  It was pretty close to nine o’clock, if it wasn’t nine o’clock.
Q  And you had arrived at the lounge between six and seven.  Is that right?
A  I’d say it could have been seven-thirty, could have been six, I didn’t pay too much at-tention what time it was.
Q  Were you drinking?
A  Yes, sir, I drank about--
Q  How much had you drunk at the time this girl came in?
A  I’d say three, possibly four beers.
Q  Now as I understand it, this girl was wearing some kind of pants.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was she wearing boots?
A  That I’m not positive of.
Q  And you say that you saw a man in a suit--in a suit speaking to two white men, but you are not sure this is the same man in the suit who pulled the girl aside.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, I’m not positive.  When he came over there and was talking to them--I’m not sure.  Possibly it could have been because--
Q  It might have been?
A  It might have been.
Q  It might not have been?
A  Yes, 50--50.  I’m not positive.
Q  I show you now A-36.  Is this the picture you’ve identified as being a man that you’ve seen in the lounge sometime?
A  Yes, sir, I’ve seen one of that description, the mustache, in that bar.  I don’t remember whether that was the night or not.
Q  You don’t know that the man you saw who resembled this picture was one of those peo-ple, however?
A  No, sir, I wouldn’t swear to it whether he was or not.
Q  All right, and did you not identify the other three pictures you were shown, A-31, 40 and 41.  Is that correct?
A  That--I don’t believe I’ve ever seen these pictures.
Q  You don’t believe you’ve ever seen A-41?
A  If I have I never paid any attention to it.  That, I’m not completely positive, but I don’t recollect, right off hand.
Q  You don’t recognize A-40, having ever seen an individual like A-40?  You are not sure.

MR. SEGAL:  Let him answer, sir.  I object to that.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.  Give the witness the opportunity to answer.

A  I’m not completely--I‘m not sure.
Q  Let me ask a question--

MR. SEGAL:  I think we are entitled to an answer to that question.  I think the pictures should be left in front of the witness to fairly examine and look at again.  Being led back and forth seems to me inadequate as a way of asking a person again to review whether it resem-bles someone he knew.

A  I couldn’t swear--I’m not positive--but possibly--it wasn’t the first guy that was standing at the door.  The first guy seemed to be--it wasn’t him--he seemed to be more of a wide-face guy.  It was just by glancing at him.  You don’t stare at everybody in bars.
Q  You can’t positively say the man that looks like that--
A  No, I can’t.  And this girl, the hat had the personality, floppy hat, but I didn’t see her straight in the face like this.  I seen her to the side of her face.  She was too far distant from me when I first seen her in the face.  Possibly was that type face but when she passed to the side of me, I noticed her teeth like a person that wore braces on her teeth, they were completely straight.  She had her mouth half gaped open, and she was just walking straight.

COL ROCK:  You say she had straight teeth?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Q  Are you identifying A-31 as resembling this girl, or not?
A  Resembling the hat and the hair.  But that’s all.  That’s the only thing I could say resem-bles.
Q  Now Mr. Sutton, I call your attention to this blackboard with the sheets of paper on it, to my left.  I’d ask you please, if you would, to approach this and with the black marking pencil I am handing you, describe and draw the layout of the bar and the approximate position so the furniture is in it and the positions that you have indicated of the people that were in it.

(The witness drew a diagram.)

COL ROCK:  Please have the witness explain what he has drawn.

Q  Would you describe for us, please, in your own words what you have just drawn?
A  This is Rick’s lounge and it has two doors.  The main door comes in right here by the bar, and these are the stools by the bar, and there is an aisle through here, and the tables are here.
Q  If you will, the doors you have referred to are drawn toward the top of your diagram.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, this is the front, the openings and a solid line.
Q  What you are referring to as the bar is a double line curved toward the top.  What you are referring to as stools are small circles around one side of this bar.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  Now to the left of those circles that represents stools, you’ve drawn circles representing tables and labeled them as tables.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  And these are approximately in the middle of the diagram?
A  Right.
Q  And to the left side of the diagram you have drawn a series of squares which run from the top to about mid-way, perhaps a little past mid-way of the diagram, and you have labeled at the top “booths,” is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now down near the bottom center, you’ve drawn two rectangular shapes which you have labeled as pool tables?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Very good.  Using this red marking pen, would you indicate for us, please, your position in the bar when you first saw this girl?  If you will, indicate it with number one.
A  I was just standing approximately there.

MR. SEGAL:  Might I suggest we use for Mr. Sutton an initial because we tend to get con-fused hereafter if we start talking about where one, three and four, five are.  I think that the name for the benefit of clarification is more helpful to the rest of us.

CPT SOMERS:  Just a second, Mr. Sutton.  The investigating officer hasn’t ruled.

COL ROCK:  Well, number one with his name and then if he moves to a new position, it will be number one with his name again.  But that won’t show me series, though.

CPT SOMERS:  Numerically, when we refer to other people, we’ll use other methods.

COL ROCK:  Well, we can use other colors.  So a red circled one will indicate Mr. Sutton’s first position.  A red circled two will indicate his second position.

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  All fine, fine.  Proceed, please.

A  I was standing approximately this direction here, looking, and I just happened to look this way for no reason at all, just looked that way and this girl come in the door.
Q  All right, now let’s mark the doorway she came in in blue.  How about that?
A  The girl came in the door here, to the right about--well, I was looking up this way, and she was wearing a floppy hat and carrying a lighted candle.
Q  Now you’ve drawn a line, a blue line.  Put an arrow head on that line to indicate the di-rection.  Where did she go from there, or what did you see her do?

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  Why not draw a blue circle and put the number one in that for her first position.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the only reason I don’t want him to do that yet, I don’t know if that’s where she stopped or if that’s--she’s still moving.

COL ROCK:  All right.

Q  Did she stop at that point?
A  That--I was standing back here.  I’m not sure.  She could have stopped right here, ap-proximately--I’d say no further than that second stool.
Q  Would you draw a circle at approximately where you think she might have stopped?  Now you’ve drawn a blue circle.
A  I think she had gotten that far--I think.
Q  I would ask you not to mark on the diagram except as we agree to mark on it.  Now you say that she was taken to a booth?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  By a man or in the company of a man.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  Now would you--

COL ROCK:  First, let’s draw the number one in that circle.  That represents where she first stopped, I believe, right?

(Witness complied.)

Q  With this green pen I hand you, mark the position of that man when you first saw him, again with the circled number one.
A  He had to be sitting on one of these first stools.  I think it was about the second one.  Make a circle right here?
Q  Yes, please, and put the number one in it.

COL ROCK:  Is that the man in the suit?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Q  Now you’ve drawn a green circle with the number one, the position of the second circle representing the bar stool.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, this is a bar stool.
Q  Now would you indicate for us with a green and a blue circle which booth they went to?
A  I’d say it was the second one, seems like it was the second one.
Q  Would you draw for us then, please, a green circle and a blue circle with the number two in it?

(Witness complied.)

Q  Now this girl passed you at some point.  Where were you when she passed you and you saw her?
A  The, men’s latrine was right here.  It’s kind of a--place at the back of the bar where you can go through here, and I was looking to see what happened.  I was kind of standing right back here, and about this time I didn’t see this girl sitting--there wasn’t no one else sitting over there, but him and the girl I’d seen come in.  About this time I was looking that way to see what happened, just curiosity, to see if I knew her, see what was going on, and she passed me, right about in here, and I glanced at her.  I looked that way--I didn’t see no girl sitting over there no more, so it had to been her passed right by me, and I looked to see if I knew her.  I didn’t.  I just seen the side of her face.  I didn’t see her whole face.  I seen the side of her face.  She was, say, right here.
Q  Indicating to your left at the position of an arm’s length?
A  It wasn’t even arm’s length.  It was just about that close.
Q  About two feet?
A  Right, and I just looked at her side, you know, to see if I knew her, and the only thing I noticed odd about her was she didn’t have on a hat.  I noticed that, but she had her mouth open like she was--I don’t know how to explain that--it was just gaped open and her teeth--I noticed her teeth was straight like a person that worn braces before.
Q  Now if I may, you’ve drawn a blue line there.  At the bottom end of it would you draw a blue circle with the number three in it?

(Witness complied.)

Q  Now this indicates the path of the girl as she passed you.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.  Now this is the first time.  I was back here in this part--later on is when I saw her pass me.  This is the first time--I started walking this way, and this guy grabbed me that was talking to me.  I didn’t know him personally.  He started talking to me.
Q  What was he talking to you about?
A  I don’t remember.  I think it was just “How are you doing?” or something like that, just seemed to want to attract my attention for some reason or another.
Q  Now where were these two white men standing?  Indicate with your finger, please.
A  Right here, right inside the door.  Not on this side, they were standing right here.  There was a man in a suit standing there talking to them.  It seems like he was the one that had took her over to the side.  I’m not positive--but he was dressed in a dark suit, a young guy.
Q  I have given you a yellow pen.  Would you, with an oblong marking position of both of the two men?
A  There was a door right here.  I’d say it was just inside the door standing right side by side here.  And this other guy was standing right here talking to them, talking to the first one.
Q  He was standing in the center?  Now you’ve marked two small yellow circles inside the door on the right side of the diagram, to the left of the door.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, right by the front door, just to the right as you come in.  This is the front bar here and this is Hay Street, and this is coming in the front door of the bar, sitting across from the train station.  It would be to the right of the door as you come in, standing right there as you go in the door.
Q  Where were you standing when you noticed these people?
A  I had walked back up in this general area.
Q  All right, would you mark your position with a red pen, please?
A  I had walked back up in here in this general direction.  I would say I was right there.
Q  Would you put a two inside that red circle?

(Witness complied.)

COL ROCK:  Was this after the blonde had passed you?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Q  So this represents the first time that you had noticed the two Caucasians, the white men at the door you’ve described?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now where was this Negro that you’ve made reference to?
A  Well--

COL ROCK:  Let’s go back to the black marking pencil and just make an X mark.

A  He was standing right there.
Q  You’ve drawn an X in the upper right hand corner of the bar.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Very good.  Can you tell us now, from the back pool table that you’ve drawn to the front of that lounge approximately how much distance is involved?  How far is it?
A  About as far from here to where that clock is.
Q  Indicating from yourself to the clock in the back of this hearing room?
A  Now from where I am standing now it’s about--it’s not quite that far.
Q  How far?
A  At least--I’d say, within about--where that square goes back on that--
Q  Are you indicating a distance of perhaps thirty feet?
A  Yes, sir, I’d say so, close to it.
Q  Well, would it be more than thirty feet or less than thirty feet?

MR. SEGAL:  I would object.  The witness has indicated a place that we can now measure without having to speculate exactly to distance.  I believe we can even ask him to point where the maximum distance was, and we can then take a measurement at our leisure, other than guess at numbers.

COL ROCK:  Let the witness step the distance off and we can measure it that way much more quickly.

(The witness walked to the back of the hearing room.)

WITNESS:  I’d say from about here to where I was standing.

COL ROCK:  Now from that position, just step it off back to where you were, please.

(Witness complied.)

WITNESS:  Ten steps.

COL ROCK:  Thank you.

CPT SOMERS:  All right, you can have a seat.  If you will just leave those there I will give them back to their owner or owners.  (Indicating the pens.)

Q  What connection did this Negro have with the other people?
A  He didn’t seem to have no connection.  He was just standing over the way I marked him there until they left.  He left with them.
Q  How tall was he?
A  He was taller than I was.  He was six foot or better.  He seemed to have a mustache, best I can recollect.  Seem like he just had a mustache and he seemed to be, I’d say, thirty years old, late 20’s or early 30’s.  I don’t--can’t tell the age of a colored person too well.
Q  Now you have indicated him to be in the area of six feet.  Do you have any idea whether this could be more than six feet or less than six?
A  It could be more than six.  It wouldn’t be less than six--he was taller than I was, 5’ 10½.  He was just standing there.  He didn’t seem to be staring at anything particularly.  He was just standing there.
Q  Now in what order did these people leave?  Did you see them leave?
A  Well, I kept noticing, watching them--that is to see what was--and they wasn’t there--they weren’t there fifteen minutes, if they were there that long.
Q  And in what order did they leave?
A  They went out this door on the other side.  They came around and went out.
Q  Indicating the door on the left side of your diagram?
A  Right.  And that’s when I noticed this colored guy in a fatigue jacket.  I thought he was wearing a whole suit of fatigues, but he had on civilian trousers.
Q  How many people left all at once when these people departed, or did they all leave at once?  If they didn’t, how was it?
A  Well, the two guys left with him.  I’m not positive.  I just, curiosity, I was just watching that guy in a fatigue jacket, you know, what he was doing downtown in fatigues.  I thought he had a whole suit of fatigues.
Q  Did he leave with the girl?  Excuse me, go ahead.
A  Well, she disappeared about the same time they did.  I didn’t see her no more, so she must have left with them.
Q  You say “they,” who is the “they?”
A  The two guys standing at the door, this colored boy and the guy in the suit.
Q  Did you ever have any information which led you to believe there was any connection be-tween this colored man and the other people that you’ve described?

MR. SEGAL:  Well, that’s objected to.  The objection is obvious when he said they left or ap-peared to leave together.  That’s an improper question.

CPT SOMERS:  I’m not sure that that’s what he said, and I’m trying to get the basis for his lumping this man in with the others, if, in fact, that is what he said.

MR. SEGAL:  I would request that the question be rephrased.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase the question and let’s try it again.

Q  Did you actually see these people leave, go through the door?
A  I seen the two guys and this colored Sergeant, the guy with the fatigue jacket on.
Q  You saw them leave?
A  Right.
Q  Were they together when they left?
A  Did I what?
Q  Were they together when they left?
A  Yes.
Q  And if you saw them leave together, and I gather this girl wasn’t there with them when they left?
A  I’m not sure.
Q  And you say you reported this to a man named Scottie Sutherland.  Is that correct and who is he?
A  He’s in the CID.
Q  What CID?
A  Fort Bragg, that’s all I know.
Q  Are you sure of that?
A  Well, he told me.  I’d been knowing him before he was in the CID.  He said he was going in the CID.  He wore plain civilian clothes and suits, so I guess--
Q  If I were to tell you that Mr. Grebner, the commander of the Post CID has indicated that there is no Scottie Sutherland in the Post CID or Provost Marshal Investigation Section, and has not been within the last year, would that surprise you, or would you agree that that’s correct?
A  That would surprise me.  He told me he was in the CID.  I just took his word for it.
Q  Now you say you called the FBI with reference to this matter.  Is that correct?
A  Later on about a week or so, I don’t remember the exact length of time, I called them and asked them if they got that information, and they said they had access to that information, the CID was handling it.
Q  Which FBI office did you call?
A  Fayetteville, I just looked it up in the telephone book, and called them up.
Q  What are they listed under in the phone book?
A  U. S. Government.
Q  Would you describe the lighting in this lounge?
A  It’s fairly dark.  They don’t have no bright lights on.  You can see people without running into them, but I mean it’s not--it’s not pitch black.  I don’t know how dark you’d call it.
Q  Was there anyone in that bar that you can remember now by name at the time of this in-cident?
A  I’m not positive.  I can’t remember.  I didn’t say nothing about it to no one that night.  I had forgotten all about it until I got to reading it in the papers about this, where I could re-member where I had seen someone carrying a candle.  I just kept in my mind that I’d seen someone carrying a candle.
Q  You don’t remember anybody in that bar by name who was there at that time?
A  No, sir, I don’t.
Q  Did you go to that bar very often?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You’ve been there before that?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know the people who usually frequent that bar?
A  Yes, sir, it’s one of the--
Q  I’m not asking where they are, I’m asking do you know some of them.
A  I know them when they come in there if I have seen them before.  I know them by face more than by name.  I don’t pay any attention to nobody’s name.  Some I know their name, some I don’t.
Q  How often do you go there?
A  Oh, I’d say--I hadn’t been there in the past couple of weeks.  About every time I go to town I go by there.
Q  What do you do for a living, Mr. Sutton?
A  I sell professional uniforms, beauticians, advertising specialties, such as book matches.
Q  Have you ever had occasion to see in the newspaper or hear on the radio information in this case?
A  Yes, sir, I seen it about two or three weeks ago.
Q  You saw it how long ago?
A  Two or three weeks ago I believe it was.  I noticed it in the paper.
Q  You mean two or three weeks ago?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you had occasion to give your information to any other law enforcement agent from the time you talked to the FBI?
A  No, sir.
Q  And why is it that you’ve come forward now with this information?
A  The information seemed to never come out to what I told that I seen.  I figured if I knew something that would help someone, I felt that I was--
Q  Are you prompted to be here by the offer of reward?
A  No, sir.
Q  Are you hoping in any way to benefit by being here?
A  Not especially.  I’ll be glad to get out of here.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  If I may, Mr. Sutton, just a couple of matters.  Did you read about that reward before or after you called the reporter with the newspaper?
A  I read it before, but I didn’t call the newspaper reporter until it was two weeks after that, I guess, a week or so afterwards.
Q  Did you ever talk to myself or anybody at all connected with the MacDonald case about that reward?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did anybody ever mention the reward to you?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you know what the conditions are for receiving any money in connection with the in-formation given?
A  Only information I know was arrest and conviction of the ones that have been described, other than what I read in the paper, that’s all I know.
Q  I show you a white hat previously marked and identified for the record in this case as A-42.  Does this resemble a hat which you’ve ever seen before?
A  That is similar to the one she was wearing.  It seems like it had more flop in it and curved down on the sides, like it does in the front.
Q  How about this general style, aside from the way--
A  It was that type, with a high top to it.
Q  If you could, would you give us any more description of the way this young lady appeared when she walked back past you, besides the way she held her mouth?
A  She seems, just seemed to--wasn’t looking to the left nor to the right.  She was just walking and--in one direction, straight ahead, like she knew where she was going.  She was headed that way, she wasn’t looking, smiling, just had that one expression on her face.
Q  Did you notice anything about her eyes?
A  Her eyes were just open.  That’s all I noticed, staring straight ahead.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you very much.  I have nothing further.

CPT BEALE:  Re-cross?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mr. Sutton, do you have any convictions on your record?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to, sir.  I have no idea.  I’m just saying I think it’s an improper question to ask a witness who comes forward under circumstances like this.  I think it is cal-culated to discourage people from being willing to participate.  If the government wants to find out, they have the man’s name and address, and they can get the information without embarrassing the person whether it is true or not.  I may be doing him a disservice by even arguing about it.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

COL ROCK:  Is counsel for the government planning to introduce this as an exhibit for our use?

CPT SOMERS:  Perhaps I’d better do that.

COL ROCK:  Please have the witness to sign and date.

CPT SOMERS:  Mr. Sutton I am going to ask you to sign your name and the date, which is the 14th of August on right hand bottom side of this sheet.

WITNESS:  August what?

CPT SOMERS:  August the 14th.  Mr. Sutton, this is the diagram that you just made, is it not?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I offer this diagram, signed by Mr. Sutton and made by him during his cross-examination, as a government exhibit.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the accused have any objections?

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir, I do not.

COL ROCK:  This will be accepted as Government Exhibit 104, drawing of the interior of Rick’s Lounge.  I would like the exhibit put back on the tripod so I can ask some questions on it.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Sutton, how many people were in the bar at the time that you observed this unusual occurrence, approximately?

WITNESS:  Seemed to be quite a few sir.  There was a--seem like all the bar stools were full and I was in the back at the time.  There wasn’t no one sitting in the booths over here.

COL ROCK:  Anyone at the tables?

Witness: Not that I recollect.  I don’t know if there was anyone at the tables or not.  I’m not sure.

COL ROCK:  What were the weather conditions outside at that time, do you recall?

WITNESS:  It had been raining or seemed like it had been raining.  I’m not positive but it seemed like it had been.

COL ROCK:  When you observed the girl with the candle, did you see her as she was coming through the door, or after she was inside Rick’s Lounge?

WITNESS:  After she was inside.  She was coming, I’d say, right from the door.  I just hap-pened to be looking at that direction at the time, and it attracted my attention when I seen she was carrying a lighted candle.  That is what attracted my attention.

COL ROCK:  What color was the candle?

WITNESS:  That I didn’t get close enough to--

COL ROCK:  What size did it appear to be?

WITNESS:  It would seem to be about that high, say--

COL ROCK:  Indicating about--let the record reflect about four to five inches, would you say?

WITNESS:  It might have been three or four.

COL ROCK:  Was the candle in a candle holder, or was she holding it with her bare hands?

WITNESS:  She seemed to be carrying it with both hands, holding it--something--I don’t know what it was setting in but it seemed like she was carrying it with both her hands, like that.

COL ROCK:  Did you know the bartender on duty that night?

WITNESS:  I probably did, but I don’t remember which one it was.  They change day and night.  They have different ones.

COL ROCK:  Did you have occasion to discuss with the bartender?

WITNESS:  No, I mentioned to someone, I said, “Did you see that girl with a candle?”  They said no and just laughed it off.  I didn’t think no more about it until later on that week when I was reading in the paper about it.

COL ROCK:  When the girl passed you at your position indicated as a red one on Government Exhibit 104, was she heading perhaps for a ladies lounge?

WITNESS:  I took that as--idea of where she’d been.  There was nowhere else to go, I didn’t think.

COL ROCK:  Did you ever see her after that one incident when she passed by you?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  If I recall, you mentioned when you went from position one to position two, somebody stopped you to talk to you?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Is the position of that individual indicated on Government Exhibit 104?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  I started--I was standing right back here when I seen her and I started walking that way.  I was going to see what was going on.  Some guy right here grabbed me and pulled me over to him--started talking to me.

COL ROCK:  And is that position approximately at the--by the third stool from the bottom of the bar heading toward the top of the diagram?

WITNESS:  It could have been, it could have been.  It was either the second or third one, somewhere in there.

COL ROCK:  I’m just trying to identify it.

WITNESS:  In that general area.

COL ROCK:  What was that fellow wearing?

WITNESS:  He seemed to be wearing a suit that night too, but he seemed, I don’t know, I don’t remember what he was talking about.  He said, “How are you doing?” or something like that--how are you doing tonight?  I didn’t know him real personally, just to see people, speak to them, that’s all.

COL ROCK:  How long did you converse with him?

WITNESS:  Just a minute.  Kept noticing where that girl with the candle was.  I kept trying to see.  Some guy just took her over to this booth over here, kept glancing over there.  I didn’t
--it was curiosity.  You didn’t usually see someone walking around with a lighted candle.  That’s what attracted my attention to it.

COL ROCK:  Now when you first saw the girl with the candle, what were you doing?  Were you sitting down or just standing?

WITNESS:  I was just standing, looking, I just happened to be looking that way, straight up toward the front.  I don’t even know why I was looking that way.  I just looked and about that time this girl came in that had the candle, with this funny-looking hat.

COL ROCK:  But you observed her actions from the time she entered the door to the time she sat down at the booth, until the time that she passed you, all from the position one.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  I am not sure I know what you are talking about.  I’ll show you.  I was, when I first saw her, I was standing back here.  She came in the door.  This guy--some guy sitting right here seemed to know her.  He got up and he went over here and sat down in a booth, sir.

COL ROCK:  And all that time you were at position one, correct?

WITNESS:  Well, I was standing right here.  Then I started walking that way and this guy sitting here seemed to gab me by the arm and started talking to me, and I just kept glancing that way, you know, and I walked--and I couldn’t see the girl with the hat on any more, so I kinda walked back this way, and I kept wondering who that girl was, about the time she walked by me.

COL ROCK:  So you went from position one to a position somewhere near bar stool two or three, then you returned back to position one where you saw her at the circle marked three?  That’s approximately where you saw her?

WITNESS:  Right, she came walking by me.

COL ROCK:  Then subsequently you moved up to position two, is that right?

WITNESS:  Right, I walked up there, was wondering what was going on and this colored boy was standing there with a fatigue jacket and these two guys were standing there, and there was some guy standing there talking ‘em.  That, I’m not sure who he was, or who they were, I’d never seen him before.

COL ROCK:  Now you say it was dark in the lounge.  Is it about dark similar to other lounges, other bars that you’ve been in in Fayetteville?

WITNESS:  Well, this was not--anyway, they don’t have too many lights in there.  It was lighter in the day time, and when it was dark it made it that much darker.  You could see people after your eyes adjusted to the dark.  You could see where you were going.

COL ROCK:  What color was this bruise that you saw on the Negro?

WITNESS:  It seemed to be above his left eye, right in there, his eyebrow, kinda right in here, looked like bright red or something, like it was puffed up, like he had been hit.  I just took for granted it might have been a fight or something.

COL ROCK:  It did looked puffed up and reddish?

WITNESS:  Yes, a bruise or something.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel?

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I do, sir.  This was the night of Tuesday?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Sutton, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand this?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, sir.

(Witness departed the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  In view of the hour, I would suggest that this hearing should be recessed until 1345.

CPT SOMERS:  I would request 1400.

(The hearing recessed at 1217 hours, 14 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1544 hours, 14 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, with the exception of Lieuten-ant Malley--well rather, Mr. Eisman, and Captain Thompson.  Is the counsel for the accused ready with the next witness?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, at this time we’d ask leave to call out of order, before the cross-exam-ination of Captain MacDonald, a civilian witness, Mrs. Barbara Daw, D-a-w.

COL ROCK:  Permission granted.  Would you please bring the witness?

MR. SEGAL:  Now in connection with Mrs. Daw’s testimony, sir, she is currently a patient at the Womack Army Hospital, preparing for surgery.  She is somewhat apprehensive, and I would ask leave to have her husband, Warrant Officer Daw, be present.

COL ROCK:  Permission granted.

(Mrs. Barbara Daw was called as a witness, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Daw, would you state your full name and your home address for the record?
A  Barbara Helen Daw, 119 LeBlanc, Fort Bragg.
Q  And that is on Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the address?
A  Yes, Corregidor Courts.
Q  And is your husband a member of the United States Army?
A  Yes.
Q  What is his full name and rank, please?
A  Robert Cornelius Daw, he’s Chief Warrant Officer.
Q  Now in 1969, where were you living, in the summer of 1969?
A  We were living at McChoen Drive.
Q  And what address is that?
A  3420 McChoen Drive, Fayetteville.
Q  That is not on the Fort Bragg reservation?
A  No.
Q  Where was your husband stationed at that time?
A  He was in Vietnam.
Q  Now who resided with you at that address in Fayetteville?
A  My brother lived with me until he finished school.
Q  When did he finish?  Was it in May or June of 1969?
A  Yeah, it was somewhere in May or June.  I’ve forgotten which.
Q  And who else resided with you?
A  After he left, Mary Hardin came to live with me.

COL ROCK:  I’m sorry I didn’t hear the name.

WITNESS:  Mary Hardin.

COL ROCK:  Do you know how to spell that name?

WITNESS:  H-a-r-d-i-n.

Q  And do you have any children, Mrs. Daw?
A  I have two, a boy and a girl.
Q  And did they live with you at that time?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  Now what was the name of your oldest child?
A  His full name?
Q  Well, what did you call him?
A  I call my son Chris and his full name was Christopher Lavoy.
Q  Did you have a second child?
A  Kimberly Joyce.
Q  And how did you refer to Kimberly?
A  Kim.
Q  Now how did Mary Hardin come to live with you?  Did you know her before she came to your home?
A  No, I didn’t.  Through a friend of mine that got in touch with a friend of hers, she knew this girl that was looking for a place to stay, and I met Mary Hardin.  I thought she would be all right to stay with me.  She seemed nice at the time.
Q  How old was Mary Hardin at that time?
A  As far as I know she was fifteen.
Q  What led you to believe she was fifteen?
A  Well, she didn’t have any driver’s license.  She told me her age.
Q  Was she married or single?
A  She was married.
Q  Did you know what her maiden name was?
A  Her mother’s name, she was going by, was Bible.
Q  Bible?
A  But she had been married several times and I don’t know if Mary had the same maiden name or not.
Q  Did Mary Hardin have any children?
A  She had a little girl.
Q  Did the little girl live with Mary Hardin?
A  No, her in-laws had her in their home.
Q  Now as a result of Mary Hardin moving in with you, did she have any friends or other per-sons who started to come to visit in and around your house?
A  Yes, she did.
Q  Now were these male friends or female friends?
A  Both.
Q  Were there some persons who came more frequently to visit Mary Hardin?
A  You mean her friends?
Q  Yes.
A  Yes.
Q  Could you give us the name of those persons that you knew were the most frequent vis-itors to your home?
A  You mean McCormick?
Q  Yes, I think you told me before when we interviewed you about two men.
A  Yes.
Q  And are these two persons who came most frequently to visit Mary Hardin at your home?
A  Yes.
Q  Now would you state to the investigating officer the name of the first man?
A  It was Randal Foster.
Q  And do you know about how old Mr. Foster was?
A  At least nineteen or twenty.
Q  And was he a solider stationed here at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes.
Q  And what was the name of the second man who came to visit Mary Hardin?
A  The name that, the only name that I ever knew, that they would tell me, was Tom.
Q  Do you have some reason to believe you now know his full name, or you think you know his full name?
A  Yes, I think his name is McCormick.
Q  Thomas McCormick?
A  Yes.
Q  About how old was he?
A  About the same age as Foster.
Q  And he also soldiered in the same company with Randy Foster here at Fort Bragg?
A  I don’t know.  I have been told.
Q  You have been told the information that they were both in the same unit?
A  Yes.
Q  Now were there any young women who also came frequently to your home as a result of Mary Hardin being there?
A  Well, this Foster and McCormick would bring their girlfriends.
Q  All right, would you name those two, please?
A  McCormick’s girlfriend was Chris Jones, and Foster’s girlfriend, she was kind of Spanish.
She had a--I can’t remember her name.  It was kind of a Mexican or Spanish name, at least.
Q  What did she look like?
A  She was kind of--about my height.  She had dark hair, dark skin.
Q  How about her build?  Heavy, slender?
A  She was slender.
Q  Did you learn anything more about who Chris Jones was, that is who her family was?
A  Well, I found out that her father was a Colonel on post, and that she lived somewhere be-hind the hospital, back over in that area.
Q  Now after these young men and young ladies started visiting Mary Hardin, something spe-cial happened.  Did they tell you something special about Mary’s condition?
A  Yes, she was trying to get an abortion.
Q  Did you know she was pregnant when she came to live with you?
A  No, she was about four or five months, and I couldn’t tell it at all.
Q  She said to you that she was four or five months pregnant?
A  Yes.
Q  And you didn’t see any visible signs?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  So the only knowledge you had of her allegedly being pregnant was what they told you.
Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  Did she ever do anything or seem to do anything that was connected with pregnancy?
A  I think she got sick one time as I remember.
Q  Now did anything happen as a result of these people telling you that Mary was pregnant?
A  What do you mean?
Q  Let me put it this way.  Did Mary indicate that she was going to go through and have this child?
A  Well, she had planned to have an abortion.
Q  Let me clarify if I can.  Did Mary or these two boys tell you that there was an abortion go-ing to be performed on Mary?
A  Yes, there was one going to be performed.
Q  And who told you about the abortion?  Which one?
A  Well, Mary, first of all told me they were going to help her.
Q  She said these two fellows was going to help her get the abortion?  Did the two fellows mention about the abortion also?
A  Well, later on I talked with them, and they said that she was too far along, and she was underage for them to help her.
Q  Now as a result of the discussion about an abortion, were you asked to lend these people your automobile?
A  Yes.
Q  And what kind of a car was it?
A  It was a ’67 blue Volkswagen.
Q  And on the first time that anybody asked you about this car, who was it that brought up the subject?
A  It was Foster.
Q  And he asked you to lend them your car?
A  Yes, he was going to get some things to do this abortion with.
Q  You say some things?
A  Instruments.
Q  Surgical instruments?
A  They just said instruments.
Q  And did you lend them the Volkswagen?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Now how long did they keep the car on that first occasion?
A  They had it overnight and brought it back the next day, and said that he couldn’t get any-thing.
Q  Did you give him permission to keep the car that long?
A  No, I told him to bring my car back, and I started one time to report it, but then I was--I thought I’d wait and that he’d bring it back.  If he hadn’t brought it back the next day I was going to.
Q  Do you have any idea what month it was that this incident first took place where they borrowed the Volkswagen?’
A  It may have been July, June, July.
Q  When they brought the car back to you, did they turn the keys to the car over to you?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever, thereafter, get the keys to your car back from either Foster or McCormick or Mary Hardin?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  Did you ever regain control of your car while those people were around?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  How long did this situation last, where they had your car and the keys, and you couldn’t get use of it?
A  About three weeks.
Q  Now when they came back with the car the first time, did you ask them to give you back your keys?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What did they say?  Better indicate who said--who was talking to you about this?
A  Well, Foster said that first of all because I let him use the car, and everything, that if--if I reported them or anything that he was going to accuse me of being an accessory to the fact of the abortion, and he was also telling a few lies.
Q  He said that if your--if you reported the taking of your car that he would involve you in this so-called abortion of Mary?
A  Yes.
Q  Did he say anything else that would happen if you attempted to report him to the authori-ties for keeping the car?
A  Yes, he threatened my children’s life and mine.
Q  Did this happen the first time when he brought the car; he made the threat to your chil-dren?
A  Yes.
Q  Did he in any way indicate or do anything other than say, you know, show what he meant about threatening the children’s at that time?
A  Well, I--I told him I wanted my car, and that I would take them where they wanted to go and not to come back.  And they said they were sorry but I couldn’t have it.  So I told them
--I told my children to go get in the car, and that we’d leaving, and they went and got in the car, and one of them slammed the door and hurt my little girl’s arm--
Q  Who was that?
A  Kimmie, Kim.  So they backed out of the driveway and stopped and told me if I had any plans or ideas of saying anything, I’d better not, because I’d regret it, and I went in the house and I was going to call the police, and the phone was ringing.  When I got in there it was a friend of mine that I grew up with and he had been trying to date Mary several times.
Q  Before you go on with that, if I may back up.  What name did they know your children by?  What did Foster and McCormick call your--
A  Chris and Kim.
Q  Did they use these names?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  With both the children?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  Did both of them call them Chris and Kim?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  What about Mary Hardin?  How did she refer to your children?
A  Chris and Kim.
Q  Now you said you went back to your phone call, and it was somebody, a friend of yours that was trying to get in contact with Mary?
A  Yes.
Q  And what was the name of that person?
A  Mickey Walker.
Q  Mickey Walker.  Now, where did you know Mickey Walker from in the past?
A  He and I grew up together.  He lived right across the street from me.
Q  Did you go to school together?
A  No, I am much older than he is.
Q  Where was this that you grew up?
A  Clinton, North Carolina.
Q  And did you mention to Mickey Walker about this incident with the car and the child being hurt?
A  Yes, I did.  I was crying and I told him about the men being there and that they had threatened my children’s life and they had my car and left.  And he told me that the SBI--
Q  You say SBI.  Do you know what those initials are?
A  State Bureau of Investigation.
Q  The North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation?  All right, what about the SBI?
A  He said they were staying there at the Betsy Ross Motel where he worked.
Q  What did he do at the Betsy Ross Motel?
A  I guess took care of the--he said that if I wanted to he would tell the man in charge of the SBI and have them talk with me.  They were trying to get people like this.  And I told him yes.  About that time Foster and McCormick pulled up in my car and I hung up.
Q  Did Foster and McCormick then come in your house?
A  Yes, they did.  They saw the--I have a long extension cord on my phone and they saw it swaying and they wanted to know who I had been talking to.
Q  And what did you tell them in answer to that?
A  I told them somebody had called and it was a wrong number.
Q  Did they accept that explanation?
A  I tried to act calm--I think they did.
Q  They didn’t question you at least about it at that time?
A  No.
Q  Now what’s the next step that happened in regard to your relationship with Foster and McCormick and Mary Hardin?
A  Mary--well, Foster and McCormick had their girlfriends over.
Q  And that’s Chris Jones and this Latin-American girl?
A  Yeah, they had them over one night, and Mary had slipped out to go and taken my car.
Q  Do you know why Mary was trying to do that?
A  I couldn’t tell you.  She does things that--that aren’t explainable.  But she slipped off with my car and when they got ready to take their friends home, and they saw the car was gone and Mary came back about ten minutes until eleven.
Q  Were McCormick and Foster and the other girls still there?
A  Yes.
Q  And what happened when Mary came back?
A  Well, McCormick took the girls home and Foster stayed there.
Q  Why did Foster stay there?
A  To make Mary pack her clothes to leave my house.  He wanted, McCormick wanted his girlfriend, Chris Jones, to come and live with me, so she wouldn’t have to go to Maryland with her father who was retiring from the Army.
Q  Now what happened to Mary Hardin?
A  He was going to take her to her mother’s house or a friend’s somewhere.
Q  Now what happened during the period of time that Tom was staying in your house--or Randy Foster staying--excuse me.  I mean when the one fellow drove the girls home, the second fellow stayed and I think I--
A  Foster stayed.
Q  Randy Foster.  Now did anything unusual happen while you were waiting for McCormick to return with your car again?
A  Yes, it did.  He had been drinking and I heard McCormick say several times that he would get drunk off alcohol.

COL ROCK:  I’m sorry--he would what?

WITNESS:  He would get drunk off hardly anything.

Q  He being--he referring to Randy Foster?
A  Yes.
Q  Did Foster do anything unusual besides drink at your house while he was waiting for McCormick to come back?
A  Yes, he made Mary go in the bedroom and pack her clothes and my husband had a gun.  It was up in the closet.  He had found it and I didn’t know he had it until he pulled it out that night.
Q  While he was waiting for Mary to pack?
A  Yes, he was talking to her and scaring her.
Q  How did he scare her?
A  Well, he was talking about--he said that McCormick had killed and that no one ever found out, things like that, what he was--what they were going to do to her if she ever said any-thing.
Q  If she ever did what?
A  If she ever said anything.
Q  Did he indicate what he was talking about that Mary should not mention to other people?
A  About them being in my house, and about marijuana and about the abortion or anything.
Q  Now what was Mary’s attitude?  How did she respond?
A  She was afraid.  She was crying, scared, he--I think he slapped her a couple of times.
Q  Now did Mary leave that night?
A  Yes.
Q  When McCormick came back?
A  Yes, he took her to a German girl’s house who Mary used to live with.
Q  He took Mary Hardin back to the house where she had lived before?
A  Yes.
Q  Did they leave anyone with you when they took Mary away?
A  Foster stayed there.
Q  In other words, they left one person with you all the time?
A  Yes, I was very seldom by myself.
Q  Did you continue to ask or demand that your car be returned to you?  For the next couple of days I am talking about now.
A  Yes, I did.  Well, see that night, when Foster had the gun and he was kind of drinking, and he pulled the trigger, in other words, scaring Mary and it fired down into the floor.
Q  The gun actually went off?
A  Yes, it went off.
Q  Did you see it go off?
A  I sure did, and it was right near my children’s room, and when they threatened Mary the way they did that night, I decide to do something the next day, whenever they left.
Q  Well, what happened the next day?
A  After they took Mary, I called to find out if she was okay, which she was.  So they want-ed, McCormick wanted Chris to come and stay with me, and I told him that I wanted them out, get out of my house.
Q  All of them?
A  Yes, that I didn’t want to see them anymore, and they said they were sorry, but I was in it then.
Q  What did they mean that you were in it?
A  That I was in it.  That if I told them to leave and everything that they would--if I called the police or something--they would say that I was an accessory, and that I was doing the same thing they were doing.
Q  Did you ever find out what they were really doing?
A  No, no, they talked.  I thought they did a lot of talking, and but I never knew actually what they did or anything.
Q  Did they subsequently have a conversation with you about bring drugs in the Fayetteville area?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  About how long after the time when Mary was taken out of your house did that conversa-tion take place?
A  Well Mary was taken out and the next day, they left and that’s when I reported it.  That night when they had my car and they called me on the telephone and said that somebody had reported them, that my car had broken down and it would be a couple of weeks before they would get in touch with me.
Q Let’s back up a little bit.  You say the day after Mary was out of your house, you reported that the car was gone?
A  Yes.
Q  To whom did you report this, Mrs. Daw?
A  Mickey Walker called me on the phone, well, not me, he was calling for Mary, and I was crying at the time.
Q  This is the second time Mickey had called?
A  No, it is the first time he called that I talked with him, and he wanted to know what was wrong and I told him, and then he told me he wanted to talk to the SBI.
Q  Did you talk to anybody who said to you, at least, that he was associated with the SBI?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you tell them about this car of yours being taken?
A  Yes, I told them everything.
Q  Was there anything else that you accused these people of besides taking the car?
A  They threatened mine and my children’s life.
Q  Did you tell them anything else besides that?  Did you mention drugs to them?
A  Yes, I told them at night they were taking my car to go and pick up some marijuana.
They had it in a locker in the bus station, and they were going to pick it up to take it to a warehouse in Fayetteville.
Q  How did you come to have this information that that’s what they were going to do with your car?
A  Foster told me that.  He asked me if I would like to go in with them, so I just went along and I told them yes.
Q  What did he want you to do in connection with what they’d been doing?
A  To--they wanted a hiding place.
Q  For whom?
A  For themselves.
Q  And you agreed to play along with this?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What did they tell you?  Where they were going--or are they the ones who gave you the information about the plan to pick up drugs at the bus station?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  And you say you repeated this information to somebody?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you actually talk to somebody?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you talk to them by calling and asking for the SBI, or did you talk with Mickey Walker?
A  They asked me if I would meet them.
Q  Who asked?
A  The man from the SBI asked me if I would come and see him that night.  He would send someone to pick me up, and I told him yes.  So I called the Chaplain from here on the Post and asked him--I kind of explained things to him--and asked him if he would meet me out there at the Betsy Ross Motel where I was going to talk to the SBI, and he said yes.  So I told him what time and everything, and when I got there the Chaplain was there.
Q  Did you know his name?
A  I can’t remember his name.
Q  Can you describe him?  Was he an older man?
A  Yes.
Q  All right, go ahead.
A  I talked with them and I told them everything.  Well, they didn’t believe me.
Q  What made you conclude that they didn’t believe you?
A  Well, the Chaplain wanted to know what book I had been reading, or what movie I had been watching.
Q  Had you read any books or seen any movie about such a situation?
A  No, I very seldom read.
Q  After that visit, what did you do?  Go back to your home?
A  Yes, I did.  I went back and I had these friends of mine to keep my children.
Q  Before you go on to that, did they give you any more information about this package de-livery, particularly such as who was going to deliver the package in Fayetteville?
A  Well, the thing was, Foster had told me that McCormick had gone somewhere and gotten the drugs and sent it--sent the drugs by bus to North Carolina, to Fayetteville, and he had taken a plane and come back.
Q  McCormick had taken a plane?
A  Yes, and sent the drugs by bus, and they were going to the bus station to pick it up.
Q  Did anybody ever indicate to you whether they were working by themselves or with other people?
A  McCormick made a phone call from my house, or he pretended to because I wouldn’t--couldn’t tell if there was anyone on the other line or not.
Q  And what did you hear in the course of that phone call?
A  He talked like he was talking to his boss man or something, and wanting to know what to do with Mary Hardin.
Q  Did he tell you what was supposedly said to him?
A  Yes, he said that if she kept quiet and everything that nothing would happen.
Q  Did he indicate whether anything would happen to her if she did not keep quiet?
A  Yes.
Q  What did he tell you?
A  He mentioned a couple of times about killing her.  Nobody would miss her.  Her mother didn’t care about her, and nobody would miss her.
Q  Did he indicate to you who would do this to Mary Hardin?
A  Either himself or a friend that he could call the boss man in California and he would have someone come and do it.
Q  Did he give any information about the person who might do such a thing as kill Mary Har-din?
A  He said they would come from California on the plane, go kill her, get back on the plane and leave.
Q  Now you say the next day you did what about the children?
A  The next day after what?
Q  Well, you were talking about this conversation, about asking you, when you went to the motel.
A  Yeah, some friends of mine kept my children for me for almost two weeks, and I stayed with them too.  I went and stayed with them.  I didn’t stay at my house.
Q  And why did you do that?
A  Because my children’s life and my life had been threatened.  McCormick and Foster, one of them grabbed me by the throat and told me if I ever said anything that they would kill me, and I told them that it didn’t matter, so they pointed to my children and said they will kill them.
Q  And when they pointed to the children, did they refer to them by their names?
A  No, they were standing over in the corner.  They were watching, and he pointed at them and said he would kill them.
Q  And after you went away to your friends for two weeks, did you see McCormick and Fos-ter again?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  Did they ever have occasion to mention to you something about a black male, black man?
A  Yes.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer what they said in that regard?
A  They mentioned that there was a colored man supposed to come down to bring them some drugs, and they hadn’t seen him.  That’s all.
Q  Did they ever mention the colored man in any capacity or at any other time?
A  No.
Q  How many times you say your life and the life of Chris and Kim were threatened?
A  At least five or six times, if not more.
Q  And were those threats all from McCormick or was Foster involved too?
A  Both of them.
Q  Now at the end of that two week period, did your husband come here to Fayetteville?
A  He did.
Q  And was that because you had written him in Vietnam and explained the situation?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Did you thereafter move from the address you had in Fayetteville?
A  Not right away.  It was a couple of months before we got our house on post and moved.
Q  Did you have contact with any of these people or hear from these people during--I’m talking about you, yourself--when your husband came back?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  Did you receive any unusual phone calls during that period of time?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Would you describe to the investigating officer about those phone calls?
A  The only time I remember was during the night, we had gone to bed, and I woke up.  The phone was ringing and someone asked for Sergeant Nelson or something like that, and I told them I was sorry, but no one lived here by that name.  So they said, “Do you know how I can get in touch with him?”  And I said, “No, I don’t, I’m sorry.”  I started to hang up.  They said, “Well, we’re having an alert,” and they said that if you see him or something, would you let him know.  I told him, “I’m sorry; I don’t know anyone by that name.”
Q  Did it appear to you the person was trying to keep you on the phone?
A  Yes, yes, trying to keep me on the phone.  And I woke my husband up.  It was about four o’clock.
Q  Did you recognize the voice or could you indicate what type of person the voice belonged to?
A  I told my husband I thought it was McCormick.  It’s who it sounded like.
Q  Now about when did you move onto the post?
A  About November.
Q  1969?
A  Yes.
Q  And what was the address again that you moved to?
A  119 LeBlanc.
Q  And do you know where the MacDonald house is located at 544 Castle Drive?
A  Not until after I heard the news.
Q  Can you tell me now, now that you know where that house is, how far your place was on LeBlanc?
A  Castle Drive is just a couple of blocks.
Q  When did you learn about the MacDonald killings?
A  The morning after.  My husband and I had set the alarm, the radio to go off real loud.  It went off that morning and they were telling the news and they were telling about the Mac-Donald children getting killed and his wife.
Q  Did they mention the names of the MacDonald children?
A  That upset me because all of the past flashed back to me about hippies and four people and I happened to--I told my husband too, and he went there on post to the MP station.
Q  Could you give us any information, please, as to the appearance of Mary Hardin?
A  She had short reddish hair, kind of blondeish red.
Q  Did she ever wear any kind of hair piece?
A  She had a fall, it was long hair, and it was about the color of her hair.
Q  When you say fall, is that a hair piece which really gives you the effect of long hair in the back?
A  Yes.
Q  It doesn’t change the contour of the hair in the front?
A  No.
Q  About how tall was Mary Hardin?
A  About five-four maybe, no, five-five, I guess.
Q  And what was her build?
A  She was about average.
Q  How about Chris Jones?  About how tall is she?
A  She was sort of tall, she was slim.
Q  Was Chris Jones taller that Mary Hardin?
A  Yes.
Q  Was she as tall as yourself?
A  No, not quite.
Q  You are how tall?
A  I’m five-seven.
Q  What color hair did Chris Jones have?
A  It was about shoulder length, and it was long blonde, well, light blonde.
Q  And what was her build?
A  She was slim.
Q  Now you related these various episodes to your husband, did you not?  The things that happened to you while he was away.
A  Yes, I did.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all I have of this witness.  I’ll have some additional questions which I think will have some bearing on what we’ve heard so far.

CPT SOMERS:  May I ask, do you intend to call Mr. Daw?

MR. SEGAL:  Would you prefer that I call him first and go through the whole thing?  Yes, I do. He’s here and I can call him right now.

CPT SOMERS:  It will probably be easier.

COL ROCK:  I think so, whichever would be easier.  Then you are asking that this witness be temporarily excused?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, until her cross-examination.  The government will be allowed to cross-examine her after I have finished with Mr. Daw.

(CW2 Roy Cornelius Daw was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and rank, please?
A  My full name is Roy Cornelius Daw.  I am Chief Warrant Officer 2.
Q  And your unit? 
A  Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces.
Q  And your station?
A  Fort Bragg.
Q  North Carolina?
A  North Carolina.
Q  Now Mr. Daw, when did you first become aware of these episodes that had taken place at your home?
A  It was August 4, 1969.  I got a letter from my wife.  I was in Vietnam and she told me about two men that had--that had taken the car and had threatened to kill her and the chil-dren, so on the 6th of August I came home.
Q  And how were you able to return at that time?  Did you get special leave?
A  I just showed the letter to my battalion commander.  He got me emergency leave.
Q  Now what did you do after you returned here at Fayetteville in connections with these threats and other incidents involving these men?
A  Well, I first attempted to find the two men, and I did find one of them, Foster.
Q  Randy Foster?
A  Randal Foster.
Q  And did he admit that that was his name?
A  Right.
Q  Would you indicate to the investigating officer where you found him and what his connec-tions was with the Army?
A  He was a terminee from the Special Forces training program, and was presently, or was at that time in the hold-over company.  I think it was Echo Company, Special Forces Training Group, awaiting reassignment.
Q  And what happened when you got ahold of Foster?  What was said between you about these various allegations that your wife made against him and McCormick?
A  Well, I asked him about it and he denied anything to do with it.  He blamed it all on the other guy, McCormick.
Q  Let me ask you this, Mr. Daw; did he deny that anybody had ever threatened your wife and children?
A  He said that McCormick had but he had not.
Q  Did he deny that the car had been taken away from your wife and used by McCormick?
A  He said that she had let him use it and that they just run it until the oil ran out of it and the engine blew up.
Q  Did you make any other direct statements or accusations to him about his behaviors?
A  I got him, I told him to either pay for the car or I was going to have him put in jail, so he signed a note saying that he would pay the $620.00 for the damages.
Q  You say damages.  What had happened to your car?
A  Well, the car had been bent up some way, several dents in it.  The engine was worthless.
Q  Now what else happened between you and Foster besides getting him to sign the note?
Did anything else happen at that time with Foster?
A  I talked to him twice, the first time just to make sure he was the right man, and then the next time was in front of his CO, where he signed the noted and his CO witnessed it, and then he immediately left for Vietnam.
Q  About what month was that?
A  That was in either the latter part of August or September.
Q  Late 1969?
A  Right.
Q  Now what else did you do in connection with these episodes involving these men and peo-ple they knew?
A  Well, I found out where Tom was, McCormick.
Q  I gather at that time you only knew the first name?
A  Right, nobody knew who he was, but I traced him to Maryland or where Chris was living with her father, a retired Colonel, and he gave me the name of McCormick and his unit in Vietnam.
Q  If I may restate that, do I gather, in an attempt to find this man known as Tom, you tried to locate his former girlfriend, Chris Jones?
A  Right.
Q  And in doing that you traced the whereabouts of her father?
A  Right.
Q  Who had retired, I imagine not long ago, as a Lieutenant Colonel from this post?
A  Right.
Q  And where did you locate her father?
A  He was living in Bowie, Maryland.
Q  B-o-w-i?
A  B-o-w-i-e.
Q  And did Lieutenant Colonel Jones give you information about the boyfriend of his daughter?
A  He did.  He had me hang on a second and he got an envelope and read it off the envelope, the return address.
Q  And you got the name Thomas McCormick?
A  Right.
Q  And where was the man stationed in that letter?
A  In Vietnam at the same place that Foster was stationed at.
Q  And when did this happen?  What month did you contact Colonel Jones and receive that information?
A  I think it was February or March.
Q  Of what year?
A  1970.
Q  What, if anything, did you do with that information?
A  Later I gave it to the CID.
Q  Who did you give it to at the CID?
A  A man named Ivory.
Q  Now where--were there any unusual phone calls that you received during this period of time when you returned and until March 1970?
A  Before we moved on post we had several calls, maybe four or five or six.
Q  What was the dates or months did that occur, over what period?
A  September to October.
Q  All right, now describe those phone calls, please.
A  Well, the man would never give his name, and it was almost sure a colored man.
Q  How did you determine it might have been a colored man?
A  By his voice, and, and sometime he would ask for another man, several different names, you know.  Once my wife answered and he just tried to keep talking to her.  She kept trying to get him to talk to me, and he said he didn’t want to, he just wanted to talk.
Q  Now did it appear to be the same voice on all the calls that you heard?
A  It sounded similar.  I couldn’t swear that it was the same.
Q  Did you ascertain what that person was trying to say to your wife?
A  No, he never did come out and say anything directly.
Q  Did you report that information about these calls?
A  I did.
Q  When was that?
A  The same day when I went to the CID I related all the facts to them at that time.

COL ROCK:  Was that March of this year, are you saying?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Daw, when was the first time that you took the information that you’ve been describ-ing to us to the CID?
A  On the 17th, sir of February.
Q  And what did they do when you reported this?
A  I don’t know, they never told me.
Q  Were you interviewed by anybody?  Did you give a written statement at that time?
A  I gave no statement.  I talked to two of the inspectors, O’Bryant and King, and they took down a few notes, and that’s the last I heard from them.
Q  Did they indicate to you whether they would advise you what the outcome of their check was to be?  How did you leave it with them, in other words?
A  I just told them if they had any further questions to contact me.
Q  Were you ever contacted again by the CID?
A  About three days later--three days--about the 10 of this month, sir.
Q  Tenth of which month?
A  August.
Q  You are saying that--did you have any other contact with the CID about the information you reported after February 17th 1970, up until August 10th of 1970?
A  None other except about two days later--
Q  Excuse me, would that be February 19th?
A  I called them back and gave him an address where one of these girls that Mary had lived with had lived and the telephone number.
Q  You then gave them Mary’s address at that time?
A  I gave them the address that Mary had lived previously.
Q  I see.  Had they expressed interest in locating Mary to talk to her?
A  No, they didn’t say anything more about it.
Q  Why is it you called and volunteered that information to them?
A  When I talked to him the first he said if I found out anything else, give them a call.
Q  What was the circumstances of your most recent contact with the CID on August 10th?
A  Well, I had been flying and I came back in.  The man that works in my office said I’d had a phone call from the CID.  So I called them.  He said that they’d like to talk to me in reference to an incident on February 17th.  So I went the next day.
Q  And what incident were you questioned about?
A  About the MacDonald incident and why I thought our situation was related to that?
Q  And what did you tell them in that regard?
A  Well, I just started from the beginning and told them everything, what happened to the car, the narcotics, and the kid’s name and everything.
Q  What do you mean the kid’s names?
A  Well, since our children’s names were the same as Captain MacDonald’s.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

COL ROCK:  Shall we start with Mrs. Daw?

COL ROCK:  May I remind you, Mrs. Daw that you are under oath.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you describe for us, please, the physical appearance of Tom McCormick?
A  He was short, he was shorter than I.
Q  I would ask that while you are responding to my questions that you face the recorder if you could.  I know that’s difficult, but if you will, it will be easier.  He was shorter than you?
A  Yes.
Q  And what color hair did he have?
A  He had light blonde hair, and he had a wide face, sort of a pug nose, and blue eyes.
Q  And would you describe Foster for us, please?
A  He was about my height, and he had kind of rusty brown, a kind of dark brown hair, dark blonde.
Q  As I understand the incidents that you’ve related to us with Foster and McCormick, these took place in the summer of 1969.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, it did.

CPT SOMERS:  I would like now to turn to Mr. Daw, please.

COL ROCK:  Will you have any further questions of this witness, so far as you know?

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you have any further questions?

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir, not at this time, no.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Daw, I’d like to again remind you that you are under oath.  Proceed, coun-selor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Do you know, Mr. Daw, when this man, McCormick went to Vietnam, what year?
A  It was the latter part of 1969.
Q  Now you’ve described a Negro calling your house.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  How often do you--can you give us any estimate of the total number of phone calls in-volved?
A  I’d say at least five.
Q  Over a period of how long?
A  Two months.
Q  What makes you feel that this is the same man?
A  Well, I can’t be certain it was the same man but the voice sounded the same.
Q  And in what months were these phone calls made?
A  They were made in September and October.
Q  Of 1969?
A  Right.
Q  And what did the man want when he called?
A  He would ask for another man.
Q  Was it always the same man?
A  No, it was a different man.
Q  Did he ask for McCormick or Foster at any time?
A  Never.
Q  How did you know that this was a Negro?
A  By the sound of his voice.
Q  Would you describe what characteristics are peculiar to a Negro voice, in your opinion?
A  No, I can’t.
Q  But you can recognize it when you hear one?
A  Most of them.
Q  As I understand your testimony, both McCormick and Foster were a member of the Special Forces Training Group.  Is that correct?
A  Both of them were terminees from the Special Forces training program.
Q  I see.  And both of them subsequently went to Vietnam in 1969?
A  I don’t know exactly when McCormick went, but he went.
Q  In ’69.
A  Sometime before February.
Q  And you think it was late ’69?
A  Probably, yes, I think so.
Q  How far from Fort Bragg is 3420 McChoen?
A  About four miles
Q  What part of town?
A  It’s on the northeastern part, off of 401 bypass.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have two very brief matters, if I may.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Daw, can you indicate to us how far your Fort Bragg residence was from 544 Castle Drive?
A  Well, it’s sort of like a big circle.  If you go one way it is one block.  If you go the other way, it’s two.
Q  I gather that you are ETS at this station.  What is your next duty station, sir?
A  TDY Fort Rucker, en-route to Vietnam.
Q  How long will you be at Fort Rucker?
A  Six weeks.
Q  And may we inquire as to where Mrs. Daw will be residing when she leaves the hospital?
A  About fifty miles from here near her parents.
Q  With her family in what community?  Clinton?
A  Clinton.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you very much.

CPT SOMERS:  Nothing further.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Daw, in your conversation with Colonel Jones in Bowie, Maryland, did the father indicate whether his daughter was currently residing with him?

WITNESS:  I don’t remember if he did or not, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did he indicate why he happened to have an envelope with this soldier’s address?

WITNESS:  He told me that McCormick was still writing her, so I assume that she was living there.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Daw, I am a little bit confused about one point.  When you went to the mo-tel to talk to the SBI and the Chaplain, did you also see the SBI agent or was he present?

WITNESS:  He was present.

COL ROCK:  He was present?

Witness Yes.

COL ROCK:  I see, and so it is your impression that neither the Chaplain nor the agent be-lieved your story at that time?

WITNESS:  They said--the SBI agent told me that they would like to get these people be-cause I’m not the only one that had this situation since their husbands were in Vietnam, and he would appreciate all the help I could give him, and I assume--he told me that he would have a man to watch my house--so I assume that he was watching and helping me.

COL ROCK:  Oh, I see.  I misunderstood you earlier then.

WITNESS:  I got a phone call from this associate of his; he said that he had dropped the case the minute I left that night.

COL ROCK:  Oh, um-hum.  How much later was it that you contacted the associate?  When you found out the information you just gave.

WITNESS:  I think it was that night.

COL ROCK:  You called the motel, the appropriate phone number and talked to the associate?

WITNESS:  Yes, and they arranged for me to come out there that night.  They said they’d send someone after me since McCormick and Foster were gone.

COL ROCK:  I am a little bit confused now.  When you first went to the motel and the Chap-lain and the SBI agent were there, that you talked to, did the SBI send someone out to pick you up to take you to the motel?

WITNESS:  Yes, he did.

COL ROCK:  I see, all right.  And in your conversation with the Chaplain and the SBI agent at the motel, you were under the impression they were going to assist you?

WITNESS:  I was under the impression that the SBI was but the Chaplain didn’t believe me.

COL ROCK:  I see, the Chaplain did not believe you.  Now, when you said that the associate felt that the case would be dropped, was that when the associate was driving you back home?

WITNESS:  No, that was later on.  I had my children living with these friends, and the asso-ciate took me back to my house where I was getting me some clothes and I called this friend to come and get me so my children and I could live with them, and in the meantime I got a call from Foster and McCormick and they told me about my car being torn up and that some-body had reported them, and that they were going to kill whoever it was, when I knew that it was myself, and so I left, and I didn’t go back.

COL ROCK:  Now you left with whom?  With the associate of the SBI?

WITNESS:  No, my friends came and got me that were keeping my children.  I asked them if we could stay with them until my husband came home, until I could write him.

COL ROCK:  Well, now when did the associate tell you that he thought that the SBI dropped the case?

WITNESS:  I stayed with them about a week, maybe two weeks, I’m not sure, but I had made up my mind, I was so scared that--I had made up my mind that if anything was going to happen, the people were getting tired of me staying with them.

COL ROCK:  Surely.

WITNESS:  So I figured there’s only one thing to do and that’s to go home and face it.  So I took my children and I got my German shepherd and I went home and I had the gun that Foster had left at my house, and so if anyone had come I was going to protect my family and my children and myself.  And it was right before my husband had come home that the associ-ate from the SBI called me up.  He was drinking.  He called me up and he was drinking and tried to get me--he wanted to know if I needed protection for him to come over to my house, and I told him I was sorry, but I did not, and my mother was with me that night that he called, and he said he was coming over anyway and I told him not to.  And I asked him where he was at and he said he was at a tavern and he had been drinking, and I could tell on the phone that he was drinking, and he told me--I made him mad by not letting him come--so then he told me that, he said, “Well, I’ve got news for you.  They stopped the case before they ever started it.”  So that’s when he told me that.  He was drinking and he told me, be-cause I noticed I hadn’t heard or seen of the SBI after that night.

COL ROCK:  Do you know the name of the SBI agent that you talked to down there at the motel that evening?

WITNESS:  No, I don’t.  I might could recognize it.  I remember I noted it on the front of my phone book, but I erased through it.

COL ROCK:  Do you know what date that was?

WITNESS:  Oh--

COL ROCK:  By looking at the calendar, would that refresh your memory?

WITNESS:  No, I--it was about two weeks before my husband came home.  It would be in July.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions, of either individual.  Does counsel have any further questions?

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I--I have one question I would like to put to Mr. Daw based on some in-formation I have just acquired, please.  I wonder, sir, if I could put this to Mr. Daw in the ab-sence of Mrs. Daw.

MR. SEGAL:  I have no objection.

COL ROCK:  I see no reason why not. Mrs. Daw, may I advise you before you depart--I re-quest that you please not discuss your testimony that you’ve given today with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Thank you very much.

(Mrs. Daw departed the hearing room.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mr. Daw, I have just one or two questions that are fairly personal.  I understand that Mrs. Daw is undergoing treatment at the Womack Army Hospital.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  Was she undergoing psychiatric treatment there?
A  Not at this time.
Q  Has she been?
A  Yes, before.  If you will let me explain, I will be more than happy to.
Q  Please.
A  About--about four years ago she started having a lot of stomach pains, and she keep go-ing to the doctors two or three times a week.  This happened in Virginia and happened in Texas and happened in Georgia, happened in Alabama, and back here at For Bragg.  It kept happening so often they got where they didn’t believe it because they couldn’t find anything wrong with her.  In February of this year, they discovered that she had a ruptured appendix, or that she had had a ruptured appendix for about four years, and she had been in the hospi-tal, psychiatric hospital four or five times, which totaled to about three--three months at one time and a period of two or three weeks on the other occasions.  But after they found the ruptured appendix she had another psychiatric evaluation, and they said she should never have been put in the psychiatric hospitals.  But when she was there she was given shock treatments and blocked her memory.  For example, she doesn’t remember us getting married, which was about five years ago.  And it still affects her memory, the things that happened today to a degree.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions of either witness.

MR. SEGAL:  May I say something in the presence of Mr. Daw, sir, and again it can be verified by all counsel, but I had occasion to speak at lunch on the phone with Doctor Gemma, Major at the Army Hospital, and he, in giving me the patient’s general situation, he largely repeated what Warrant Officer Daw has mentioned now, with one additional factor, that should be be-fore us, and I think he can be called himself if it becomes probative here, and that is he was of the opinion that the emotional evaluations and the subsequent need for treatment was largely caused by the failure to diagnose the original problem.  That is, the patient began to believe that there was something wrong with her, and the doctors said there was nothing wrong with her and it was the opinion that the psychiatric problem stems from that.  That’s only my repeating it, but if it becomes germane, you might want to, sir, inquire in that area further with Major Gemma.  Colonel Gemma, I beg your pardon.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I do not dispute anything defense counsel just said.  I would be willing to stipulate to that.

MR. SEGAL:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  All right, Mr. Daw, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no persons other than the counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you un-derstand that, sir?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Thank you very much.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at this time I ask that the testimony of the Daws in its entirety be strick-en from the record.  It’s not only irrelevant but completely unrelated to this case, and adding tremendous administrative burden to the record in this case for no reason.

MR. SEGAL:  All I can say, sir, I would disagree with the conclusion.  I am not at all clear at this point in my own mind whether anyone can say it is connected or not connected with this case, but I would assume that after you’ve had a chance to examine the total record, I can’t imagine that a few pages of transcript relating to the Daw testimony burdens the record much more than many other things we have heard which is purportedly much closer to the issue, and I think it’s really a question for the investigating officer to ultimately decide whether this bears on the case, rather than just perfunctory dispose of that issue at this time without perhaps further evaluation.

COL ROCK:  The prosecution’s motion is denied.  However, obviously I will take into account the period of time when the alleged incidents occurred.  Are there any other matters to be brought before this hearing?

CPT SOMERS:  Not by the government, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing, sir.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be closed until 0830 hours in the morning.

(The hearing recessed at 1652 hours, 14 August 1970.)