Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970 - Volume 12

Specialist Fourth Class Kenneth C.  Mica; Mrs. Winnie Casper; Mrs. Bobbie Sue Evans; Dr. Paul Manson; Dr. Robert Charles McGann; Captain Richard Thoesen; First Lieutenant Mary Judith Thoesen; Mrs. Carol Butner; Mrs. Jean Morrell; Captain Frank Moore; Dr. Frederick Herter; Captain James Williams and Master Sergeant Leo J.  Violetti

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(The hearing reopened at 0907 hours, 10 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties to the hearing are present in the hearing room.  I would like to at this time present to counsel for the government and to the defense for the accused volumes/transcripts of these proceedings that include the following testimony of:
    Master Sergeant Medlin
    Major Gammel
    Captain Hancock
    Major Jacobson
    CID Investigator Ivory
    FBI Special Agent Caverly.

Does the government at this time have anything to present to the investigating officer?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.  First the government would like to note that on Government Exhibit 87 through 96, which are the blueprints of the house, with some exhibits drawn on them.  The alterations requested with reference to fingerprints have been made and fingerprints have been charted on these exhibits.  I hand them to the defense for their examination.

MR. SEGAL:  Might we examine them at a later time, sir?

COL ROCK:  Certainly.

CPT SOMERS:  Secondly, at this time the government re-offers the statement of Rebecca Jane Cohen.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, now as you know, this statement by Mrs. Cohen was offered earlier in these proceedings, and in the absence of Col Rock I ruled that this statement was not admis-sible at this hearing.  However, in the interim, and the proceedings that the defense filed in the United States Court of Military Appeals, there has come to my attention a Memorandum of Opinion, and on Miscellaneous Document Number 70-48.  Contained therein at the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4 is certain language which appears to make the statement of Mrs. Cohen, at least admissible at this stage of the proceedings.  Whether or not the same would be culled from the final product will be something for Colonel Rock to determine at a later date.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may comment upon that.  I certainly am familiar with the memorandum of the court, Colonel Rock and Captain Beale.  I don’t have any quarrel with that as a very gen-eralized proposition of military law.  But, however, that generalized proposition of military law does not, sir, in my legal judgment, have applicability in a 32 proceedings involving a triple homicide.  That is a generalized statement which deals with an inquiry in the court, the in-vestigating officer, is conducting an informal proceeding, as is the most appropriate way of proceeding in the average court martial investigation.  But in a capital case, based upon all the currently notorious capital cases that are going on in the military, such a document is not being received in my judgment, is not properly received because only a fair reading of it, of course, would give Colonel Rock a perspective, and I know that Captain Beale, having read it, the material contained therein relates largely to discussions had by persons, who it is unclear, even knew Captain MacDonald at all, and apparently had only the most cursory contact with Mrs. MacDonald; and therefore it seems to me that on a general basis it is unreliable in such a vague kind of discussion of what a deceased person may have said in general conversation, that to consider it here, even to let it come into the record, seems to me perhaps to bring prejudice against the accused.  I think we have attempted very scrupulously throughout these proceedings--I mean the investigating office has--to avoid any measure of element of prejudice to the accused.  Second, sir, this particular witness, if her testimony has any pro-bative value whatsoever, who I have reason to believe was available during the early weeks of these proceedings, and certainly if the government had indicated that it was going to use her testimony, that perhaps it could not wish to hold her, the defense should have been made aware of that and given the information that she was not going to be called in person, and perhaps we might have thought it desirable, although I doubt it, but I think it may have been that option available to us to take another affidavit or statement from her.  But to have the witness--to notice us that she’s available and then to allow the witness to leave the jur-isdiction of the investigating office with testimony not as direct and germane, and therefore is not much to quarrel about, but rather testimony that is vague, repetitive of third persons, not having to do directly with Captain MacDonald, seems to me to go to the area of prejudice which the memorandum of opinion obviously does not address itself to.  It does not address itself to the mere question in a tremendously serious proceeding where the Article 32 officer has elected to wherever possible, where there is germane information, to take it by the ac-tual oral testimony of the persons and certainly at least we are limited to non-oral testimony to direct statements of the observations made by that person who is pertinent to Captain MacDonald.  To let Mrs. Cohen’s statement in goes beyond that prior ruling.  In--it lets in a statement about what Mrs. MacDonald and other persons remote said and commented on in her presence, none of which is ever suggested that Captain MacDonald heard himself, either acknowledged or indicated a contrary or similar view, or any view at all in these things.  Un-der all those circumstances I do think that Mrs. Cohen’s statement adds nothing really to the government’s case except one thing, the element of possible prejudice to the accused.

CPT BEALE:  Well, again, Mr. Segal, your comments are noted, but the tenor of your argu-ments appear to go to weight to give the statement as opposed to the admissibility, so therefore it is admissible and it will be marked as a government exhibit.  Mr. Segal, have you had an opportunity to examine the exhibit which has been marked as G-99?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, we have a copy of that document.  I would like to reserve the possibility of making some further request in that regard, to that statement, but I don’t want to make it now because I want to think through my position after having a chance to reread Mrs. Cohn’s statement.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s G-99, sir?

COL ROCK:  G-99.

CPT SOMERS:  If I may, sir, there are two things I’d like to say about that statement with reference to what Mr. Segal has said.

COL ROCK:  Before I read it?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Proceed.

CPT SOMERS:  One of them is that, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Cohen left here before this hearing started; and secondly, the Cohens ETS from the service and could not be held here.
That’s all I have to say.  

(Colonel Rock read G-99.)

 COL ROCK: Government Exhibit 99, statement of Mrs. Cohen.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time the government re-offers a copy of page 116 of the Esquire mag-azine of this case which was at the one time marked G-86 and then was not received into evidence.

MR. SEGAL:  May we see the page, please?

(The document was handed to Mr. Segal.)

MR. SEGAL:  At this time I would ask for an offer of proof as to the relevancy and materiality as to the page of the magazine.  All that I observe on G-86, sir, is, of course, the outline of two markings in pencil or pen made by laboratory people.  We, of course, have not received in evidence all the other actual materials the laboratory people used to make their reports, and I am unclear as to what G-86 is being offered for in connection with the laboratory exhi-bits.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, sir, the government would state that the outlined portion marked “EXL 25” on the bottom left side of the page is outlined or does outline the thumb print of Captain MacDonald.  I could bring Mr. Medlin here to testify to that, but I think probably you would prefer that we not take that procedure at this point.  This information is not now con-tained in a written laboratory report, but it will eventually be thus contained.  Further, this is a page which contains a description of the--of another case in which the modus of this case was similar, in that the word “pig” was scrawled at the site of the multiple murders and it is for this reason both the thumb print and this printing is offered.  It is now marked G-86; it will have to be remarked since there is a G-86.

MR. SEGAL:  I gather, sir that the page is therefore being offered at this time for the con-tents of the page according to Captain Somers.  If that be so, sir, I would ask that the court at this time rule upon my request that all other adult magazines and books in the MacDonald house be marked as defendant’s exhibits, and that we will move, however, not to have them all introduced, but we will move for selective ones because we intend to show that Captain MacDonald’s fingerprints are found not only on the page of a magazine which circulates about one million copies each and every month, but also his fingerprints are found upon magazines and books dealing with the care of children, with the care and saving of lives of other people, and his fingerprints are found on a great deal more literature which is more germane in terms of Captain MacDonald’s attitudes, postures of his reading, than is a single page of a maga-zine.  In other words, sir, I am suggesting that if the government chooses to mark one page of a magazine, this opens up the right of the defense at this time to request, first of all, that every book we now be allowed to examine, which we have not been allowed to do before, and to move and mark as defendant’s exhibits all other books where we find Captain MacDon-ald’s fingerprints or other evidence that he, in fact, read those books.  It seems to me that is the necessary consequences of the government extracting a single page.  I would also say, sir, that we would insist that it not be received at this time until there is a written report.  I don’t quarrel with Captain Somers’ suggestion that there will be one in the future, but it is premature to admit it at this time.  As I understand the procedure we’ve adopted in this case, if the government’s witness would not be ready now, I understand we would entertain a subsequent motion, and I would not think it germane at this time or appropriate to receive this report that those fingerprints are, in fact, Captain MacDonald’s without the written docu-mentation to support it.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, whether this is germane with respect to the fingerprint, it’s also germane in the view of the government with respect to the contents of the page.  The government has told the defense before that if it wishes to view the house we will arrange for it to go back in the house and look at the items in the house.  If it wishes to view any of the evi-dence which is in the evidence locker, we will arrange for it to be able to do that.  With re-spect to whether that is the fingerprint of Captain MacDonald, I gave the investigating officer an offer of proof that it is.  I can bring Mr. Medlin here to testify to that but I really suggest, sir, that that’s not necessary, and that it is a great deal of expense and difficulty for some-thing that’s really not necessary.

COL ROCK:  Are these alleged fingerprints supposed to be bloody fingerprints, or just finger-prints?

CPT SOMERS:  There is no blood, so far as I know, on the fingerprint in question.  There is a bloody finger outline on that magazine.

COL ROCK:  I am aware of that testimony, but then what is the relevance of the fingerprints on this particular page, other than you might find the fingerprints, I presume, on thousands of pages of the voluminous reading material contained in that house?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the government’s contention is clearly that the explanation of Captain MacDonald for what occurred at his house is not correct; that Captain MacDonald fabricated this story.  We are attempting to show the source from which he could very well have fab-ricated, not only the story, but the word “pig” on the headboard, and for that reason we suggest that it is germane and relevant, particularly with respect to the offenses committed.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may, sir, I don’t mean to prolong the discussion, but there is something I think perhaps the investigating officer should be made aware of, and that is that first of all, I’ve never suggested we need to bring Mr. Medlin here.  My statement was simply that if we’d even consider such a thing, his written report would be sufficient.  But it is not sufficient for counsel to testify, particularly counsel who is not a fingerprint expert, who’s done the work.
But even more important, and I might advise the investigating officer, that Mr. Medlin was in-terviewed under oath in regard to the examination of the Esquire magazine.  This interview took place with Mr. Medlin on 29 June 1970, and that on page 19 of the transcript of that in-terview, sir, I would read to you an extract of his statement.  I would be glad to make the full statement available to the government or to the court if it desires.  To give it context, the question was put to Mr. Medlin, which was put to Mr. Medlin by Captain Payne, P-a-y-n-e, Chief of Military Justice Section at Fort Gordon, Georgia, who was making the inquiries at the request of counsel for the accused, and the question was put--
    “The fingerprint outline or the impression a person would leave.  Is there anything else that you could recall that you examined for fingerprints other than what we have discussed as far as the front room?  Answer: We returned to the laboratory certain books, an Esquire magazine, and a box that contained a game.  Question: Did you find any fingerprints on the Esquire magazine or the box?  Answer: We found a number of latent prints on the Esquire magazine.  However, was--this could have been made by anyone.  Some of them are identi-fied as belonging to Mrs. MacDonald, some by Captain MacDonald, and inasmuch as the mag-azine had been looked at by other members visiting the scene and at the scene, it was de-termined by the Chief of the Division that the magazine itself was not evidentiary, because it was a common piece of equipment there.”
    Now, I think in view of that kind of sworn testimony by Mr. Medlin, and the judgment ex-ercised and commented on by the Chief of the investigating team, in view of the investigating officer’s own comments, that to select a page out of a whole magazine and suggest that that gives rise to something which could have been learned by anyone reading any newspa-per, or listening to any television set or radio, is to blow up all out of proportion the signifi-cance of page 116, and again introduce the element of prejudice in the case of the accused.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, your comments have been noted for the record, however, again in accordance with the memorandum of opinion, it appears that the Court of Military Appeals has determined that this type of thing is admissible at this stage of the proceedings, and the weight to be given will be something that Colonel Rock will have to resolve in his own mind at a later time.  Therefore, this page 116 that has been extracted from an Esquire magazine will be marked as G-100.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, may I say, sir, that it should not be received at this time, subject to the written report introduced because we still have no identification of it.  Again, I understand that Captain Somers, that he has been advised by other persons, but it seems to me in re-gard to this that the very minimum that the government could do in support of trying to put in page 116, is to give us the written statement so that it may be part of the record, and we would not object to it at a later time.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, I think for purposes of your objection here, Colonel Rock will disregard any particular fingerprints on this page unless and until sometime the government chooses to put in some affirmative evidence of this.  If they fail to do so, then the fingerprints on this page will be disregarded completely.

COL ROCK:  Government Exhibit 100, extract of page 116 of March issue of Esquire magazine.
Does the government have anything further?

CPT SOMERS:  At this time the government offers two documents, statements taken from Captain MacDonald on 6 April, in the morning and the afternoon of that day.

CPT BEALE:  Has the defense had an opportunity to see these?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, we have, sir.  May we have just a moment before we comment on the gov-ernment’s offer at this time?

MR. SEGAL:  Col Rock, in regard to the government’s offer of these statements of April 6th, 1970, it seems to me the government’s attempting to do this by merely offering the docu-ments at this time, without the investigators themselves being called and having germane questions put to them, raises a very grave problem at two levels.  First of all, sir, you are at perhaps somewhat of a disadvantage in not having read the statements, but I can say to the court, and I think the government’s counsel will not deny, that an overwhelming portion of these 35 pages in one statement and 38 pages in another statement represent not state-ments of facts by Captain MacDonald, but speculative hypothetical observations and sugges-tions made by the investigators.  That is, you’ll find in here all kinds of statement made by Ivory, or Shaw, or Grebner, about what about such and such circumstances, and going on speculating things that are one, not in fact true in regard to the specific case, and which appears to be generally hypothetical statements.  Now, in being allowed to put the state-ments in, rather than calling the individual witness and saying to Mr. Shaw, Grebner or Ivory, did you interview Captain MacDonald on 6 April?  Did he say anything about what had hap-pened at this point?  We could have under that procedure the avoidance of letting all their hypothetical speculations in before the investigating tribunal, but in fact, if the government thinks it is important, get the words of Captain MacDonald as given to the government’s in-vestigators.  Now, I suggest the government’s procedure in going about it in this fashion, that is attempting to mark the documents, is really not so much because Captain MacDon-ald’s words are what the government seeks to put before the investigating officer, but it seeks to put in its very, very roundabout obtuse manner, and I think highly improper, and very unusual manner, to put before the investigating officer the theories and hypotheses and the speculations and the sheer daydreaming of the investigators, which are not at all admis-sible under any conceivable rule of evidence that you would apply here.  So from that stand-point I think it is very, very dangerous.
    Now, secondly, sir, there are a number of absolute categorical full statements made by the investigators to Captain MacDonald.  Now, some of those full statements have already been somewhat made apparent in this investigation, that is that certain photographs were presented to Captain MacDonald for the purpose of asking him to explain how such and such physical facts came about, when in fact it was admitted here in these proceedings that cer-tain of the photographs did not, in fact, reflect the crime scene exactly as it was.  You may recall, sir, the photograph of the sofa in regard to placement of certain clothing, photographs of the steps leading from the living room toward the bedroom area, where clothes were ab-sent from certain photographs, but these photographs--plus the photograph which shows the changing position of the plastic flower pot, which the investigators apparently dwelled on ad nauseam, is allowed to come in that way, sir.  Now I say that that is not the proper way.
We are not here in any way to delay these proceedings.  It is an absolute strain on the de-fendant and the defense to prolong these proceedings, and for me to suggest, sir, that it would be proper for the government merely to hand these statements in and say that you, as the investigating officer, will naturally cull out all the inappropriate things, is to permit a pro-cedure that I know of no parallel to in any kind of investigation.  It seems to me that the questions or theories that are put to a witness or to a defendant are not the evidence of the case.  It may only sometime be relevant to put the question that was put to the accused as a suspect so that he may understand the context of an answer, but we first ought to try to get the answers effected, and if the context is not clear, perhaps the prelude to the answer might be necessary, but under this circumstance of one, the largest part of this document contains the theoretical speculative questions put by the investigators, that they are un-doubtedly false statements that were made either intentionally or accidentally, or perhaps as part of the technique of the investigation which are obviously false, and we would therefore receive in this record as statements that are not true, but any evidence here that are al-lowed to come in we know are not true, it seems to me is a very serious kind of error to make.  There are also a number of--I also suggest, sir, that since the witnesses are availa-ble, the government ought to be required at this point to bring them in here and let them ask the appropriate questions, and let’s elicit it.  It avoids all the problems of going into matters which would probably never be admitted under any other fashions.  It seems to me that this is a back door approach to attempt to put in something that under no legal procedural in the Anglo-Saxon American world, in the legal world that any of us know anything about, be it Mil-itary Courts, United States Federal Courts, or any State Courts, that anybody would be al-lowed to put these kind of statements as they stand into the record.  They are not the kind of statements that are conventional questions and answers, you ask an accused what hap-pened at such and such a time, what did you do?  These are different statements, sir, and of course, you would have to read them to appreciate what I have suggested.  I’d be willing to have the legal advisor read these statements, sir, and advise you whether in fact I have mis-represented them or not to you, but I think you’ll find that I have not misrepresented them, and that to avoid the possibility of prejudice in this case, that I suggest you reject the offer of the statements and allow the government, if they so desire, to call any or all the three witnesses who were present at the interrogation on 6 April, and let them at this time testify, and we will stand aside and wait for that, although we do it at the peril of having to upset a time schedule of witnesses coming in from various parts of the country.  But it seems to me sufficiently important to not let the government put in something that they know they have no right to get in here, to set aside all other matters and do it in the this fashion.

CPT SOMERS:  In the first place, I think I should point out, the term admitted, or admitted into evidence, has no relevance here, because that’s not what we’re doing here.  I point out that the memorandum of opinion, which we’ve had reference to before clearly states what should come before this Article 32 Officer; with reference to whether there is speculation of investigators of Captain MacDonald in those written statements, the government does not deny that that may be true.  Again, to the extent that speculation in there seems to indicate something which is contrary to facts, the facts are before the investigating officer.  He can decide that himself.  Again, we are talking about weight here and not whether it should be considered.  Those are the complete statements taken and as such I am sure the investigat-ing officer is interested in reading them, and has the right to read them, and should accept them for that purpose.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, your comments have been noted, and again, these documents, how-ever weak or strong they may be, will be admitted for the consideration of Colonel Rock.

MR. SEGAL:  May I ask, sir, then that we be allowed to recall the three investigators in this case, as on cross-examination to now inquire of them, for the certain statements I made to you, that in fact they did make false or deliberately misleading statements to Captain Mac-Donald in regard to facts that they were allegedly putting to him in this interview; and that secondly, sir, I have other matters I wish now to place on cross-examination to those wit-nesses and I ask for a ruling on my right to recall those persons under those circumstances.

CPT SOMERS:  The contents of that statement, as to the truth or falsity of what it contains, can be measured by the investigating officer with reference to what he has heard here al-ready.  Now, if the defense wishes to call any of the investigating officers, whether they be Mr. Grebner, Mr. Ivory, Mr. Shaw, or any of the others, as its own witness, the government has no objection to this, and will make them available for that purpose.  However, we do not feel that they should be recalled, except as defense witnesses, to testify to anything that the defense wishes them to testify to.  Now the defense has had an opportunity to cross-examine them already.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, in view of the memorandum, the decision that we’ve been al-luding to, it appears in the interest of fairness, the rules of evidence notwithstanding, that the defense should be given the opportunity to cross-examine each and every one of these witnesses, because these statements were not in evidence at the time that the cross-exam-ination was conducted.  Therefore, the defense will be given the opportunity to recall any and all witnesses and to subject them to cross-examination.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, if that is the ruling, then may I suggest that we do this?  Proceed as we intended to proceed today, and I’ll make these people available to the defense to talk to, and decide what they want to do.  They can recall them and use them as though they were the witness of the investigating officer and cross-examine them as opposed to attempting to get them here now, because one of them is not even at Fort Bragg and one of them is engaged in physical examination, so we can’t recall them at this point.  They can be made part of the defense’s case and still--the defense will still be permitted to cross-examine them if it wishes.

CPT BEALE:  When will they be available, Captain Somers?

CPT SOMERS:  Well, one of them will be available today, if they wish to talk to him today.  I can make them available to them this week, surely.

MR. SEGAL:  We would like these witnesses made available at once and as soon as possible, and I do not wish to delay to the end of the week.  I want them available, if at all consistent with the position of the investigating officer, promptly so that we can talk--to them first, and call them as we can work them into the schedule.  And I do not believe I have heard my ears correctly, sir.  I though I sat here only a few minutes ago and heard the government tell this investigation that the opposition to my motion to be allowed to now cross-examine these witnesses, have them called on cross, that we have a right to call them, as they are availa-ble; then when we were told that only one of those witnesses was immediately available, and the other two at some vague and indefinite time, and I do believe, sir, that that is not being fair with this investigation and do not consider it being fair--that counsel for the accused in this matter to sit here and be told that the witnesses are available, when we are here.  I must say this again, sir.  We were told this morning that the government had certain matters that they--minor matters to clear up.  We should have been noticed that they intended to bring this up.  The memorandum of opinion to which the government refers to is not an expli-cation on the law of the admissibility of various statements at an Article 32 proceedings.  It is a side comment; it is one comment of many.  There is a substantial body of law involved here, and it is the government’s obligation to notify us so that we might intelligently present to the investigating officer and his legal advisor not just a memorandum of opinion generated by an action that we, the accused, brought about, but the opinion is written by the Court of Military Appeals and the Federal Distant Courts and the Courts of appeals to the United States, in regard to certain rights the accused has, and I do take certain great umbrage at a situation where this is--we come here--it has sprung at everyone.  We are told that well, it can all be corrected, but the witnesses are available, and when we get the right to have the witnesses, we are told vaguely and indefinitely they are available at some time in the future, all but one.  I, sir, am now requesting that all three of these investigators be made available forthwith and that members of the defense, accused’s counsel team, will interview them now, in this moment, in this building, and I do not wish any delay in this matter, and I wish the matter recessed at this time until we can find out exactly what moment these men may be seen, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, of course, the defense does not order this hearing around as he’s at-tempting to do.  However, when I say these witnesses are available, I mean they are sta-tioned at Fort Bragg.  They can be made available in a matter of hours with the exception of one who can be made available within a matter of a day or so.  With respect to whether the defense should have been notified of the law which applies, the defense has had open access to the military law library for weeks, months.  I think that’s a rather odd comment to make.  The government has presented one, or can present within minutes, one of the three people in question; one can be present within a few hours; another one can be present within a matter of twenty-four to forty-eight hours, and we consider that to be the meaning of the word available; we reiterate that these witnesses are available under those circumstances.  Thank you.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, I think that probably the best solution to this, until such time as you have an opportunity to talk to each and every one of these please, - let me correct.  We will not receive for consideration of the Article 32 investigation these particular offered state-ments until such time as you’ve had an opportunity to examine them.  These can be reoffered at that time and then you can call these people and have them for the benefit of cross-ex-amination.

MR. SEGAL:  That is satisfactory, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Mr. Grebner will available within minutes.  I can have all these people here by late tomorrow.

CPT BEALE:  We are not going to delay the proceedings today for this.  Do you have anything else, Captain Somers?

CPT SOMERS:  I would like at this point to take about a five or ten minute recess, please?

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be in recess.

(The hearing recessed at 0950 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1002 hours, 10 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Does the government have anything else to present at this time?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, at this time, Mr. Grebner is present and available to be interviewed.
The question is, does the defense wish to have somebody interview him while we proceed or not?  If not, I wish to release him.

MR. SEGAL:  May we inquire as to whether the government, sir, has anything else to offer this morning, and then we can answer that question more intelligently?

COL ROCK:  Is there anything else the government has?

CPT SOMERS:  It only wishes to make a caveat that when it closes that it be given the op-portunity subsequently to offer any late laboratory reports which we expect will come in.  Other than that--and any possible rebuttal that the government might have, it has nothing further.

COL ROCK:  I would to ask one question at this time.  I signed a letter requesting a psychia-tric evaluation be conducted by the government on the accused.  Does the government have any indication of what action has been taken on my request?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, the request is being considered by Colonel Austin, who is the com-mander of the hospital here, and Major Tenaglia, who is currently the acting chief of the Psy-chiatric Section of the hospital, and the request has also been discussed by them with mem-bers of the Surgeon General’s Office, and they have come to the conclusion that since we have no board certified psychiatrist at Fort Bragg, that the best resolution of this problem, would be to send Captain MacDonald to Washington, D. C. for approximately two days to be interviewed there by a group of psychiatrists who are board certified and completely quali-fied.  And we suggest, sir that this be done at the close of the defense’s case to obviate any delays which might otherwise result.

COL ROCK:  Is this method suitable for the accused?  I am assuming that, as was indicated some time ago, that counsel for the accused intends to complete, so far as you currently know, your side of the evidence this week.  Is this correct?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, Colonel Rock, that is our desire.

COL ROCK:  And so there should be no difficulty, then, in scheduling the interviews in Wash-ington the first part of next week, perhaps.

MR. SEGAL:  The only thing in regard to this scheduling, sir, we may want to have our own psychiatrist present or available and also counsel may want to be present or available at that time, but subject to those minor--I think--scheduling problems, I think we’ll be able to per-haps clarify with--when Dr. Sadoff is here tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday morning.  We are amenable to that process.  I can--only want to state at this time, however, sir, that if the government is going to offer at a later time a copy of the report prepared by the govern-ment psychiatrists in Washington, that we would like to reserve the right to offer further tes-timony, possibly, in rebuttal to that report.

COL ROCK:  Yes, this is understandable.  Then there being no further points to resolve, the question, then, that counsel for the government has as to whether or not--do you desire to interview Mr. Grebner, sir, at this time?

MR. SEGAL:  Indulge me one moment, sir, in place.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, in regard to the availability of Mr. Grebner, it is our desire to interview him this morning in the building.  I would, however, ask that that would have to be deferred for about a half hour during the testimony of the first witness when I want all counsel with the accused present.  However, after the first witness is done, we would like to then see Mr. Grebner here in this building, and have him interviewed at that time.

COL ROCK:  In other words, you wish to present your first witness, and then break.  I see no reason why this can’t be done; can you, counsel?

CPT SOMERS:  I can see no reason why.  Give me just a moment to check with Mr. Grebner, so if he has any business that he has to clear up, he can get this done immediately.


MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I have one other matter at this time, and that is may we have the govern-ment indicate with more specificity whether the additional report that they are talking about presenting is, in fact, a report dealing with the analysis of certain hairs taken from Captain MacDonald?  The reason why I ask for that at this time, sir, is that we have a witness we wish to offer in regard to that very subject matter, and it seems to me it is very difficult for us to offer him without knowing what the government’s evidence is.  It may be totally mean-ingless to even offer that testimony.  It may not be even necessary to offer that testimony.
Secondly, sir, I think that perhaps the investigating officer may not be able to ask as many of the questions he would like to have answered, not knowing what the government’s report is.  It seems to me that if we could get some more firm commitment from the government on that subject matter, one to clarify what it is we are talking about; and, two, if we can get kind of a firm date, we will then try to make a firm arrangement with our witness to be available after that report is available or the same day, if it is in fact.  Therefore, I think all of us would get the benefit of what I would say is conceivably the leading expert in the world in the subject of human hair analysis, and it seems to me that when that kind of expert is available to us, we ought to maximize the opportunity by using his information in the context of the specific facts in this case.

COL ROCK:  Can the government answer the question?

CPT SOMERS:  The reports which the government intends to bring in certainly will include evidence with respect to hair, and perhaps with respect to other matters such as wax or fingerprints.  The precise date I cannot at this time estimate.  As soon as possible, I can say that as soon as these things are in my hands, I will certainly at that point immediately make them available to the defense, and that is about as specific as I can be at this point.  The difficulty has been that the laboratory has been short-handed and has been overworked and they have just been some time getting to--let me start that sentence over again.  The dif-ficulties along this line and what has caused us to be somewhat unsure of our dates, how-ever, we have had all--high priority attached to this, and will have it hopefully, this week.

COL ROCK:  Well, I would say it appears to me that certainly it should be here by the end of next week, because I would anticipate that after the interview with the psychiatrist in Wash-ington, I am assuming that we will shortly have their report, that perhaps by Friday of next week I should have had all the evidence presented to me by both sides.

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, it will be available by that point I am sure.  However, it may be avail-able this week.

COL ROCK:  This is apparently all the information that we have at this time, counselor, for planning purposes.

MR. SEGAL:  May I just suggest, instead of waiting until we get the report in, if you would just advise us, Captain Somers, when Fort Gordon says that they have finished typing it and it’s in the mail.  That would help us with the scheduling considerably, and again, it would be helpful if they understood that we’d like to have this witness testify this week.

CPT SOMERS:  No problems with that.

COL ROCK:  Then I consider the government’s case closed with the caveats reference the reports of the laboratory and, in addition, my own request for the psychiatric examination.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at this time the government’s case is rested with the caveats that it is permitted to introduce laboratory reports, and with the understanding, first, that the state-ments of Captain MacDonald, which has already been offered, will be reoffered when the de-fense has had the opportunity to interview the witnesses; and secondly, any rebuttal evi-dence that the government may have will be presented at the close of the defense’s case.

COL ROCK:  It is so noted.  Is counsel for the accused ready to present your side?

MR. SEGAL:  We are ready, sir.

COL ROCK:  Proceed.

MR. SEGAL:  I call Specialist Four Mica.

(Specialist Fourth Class Kenneth C. Mica was called as a witness by the defense, was reminded of his prior oath, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Specialist Mica, you are the same witness who was previously called and testified in these proceedings?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You are still with the same organization?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You testified that on the early morning hours of 17 February, you received a radio mes-sage that caused you to head for 544 Castle Drive.  Am I correct in that regard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now you were in what type of vehicle at that time?
A  It was a jeep.
Q  And was any other person in that jeep besides yourself?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who was that person?
A  Specialist Four Morris.
Q  And was Specialist Four Morris the driver of that vehicle?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now do you recall exactly the location where your vehicle was at the time you received the radio message that directed you to 544 Castle Drive?
A  We were down on Honeycutt Road; I believe we were off on the side just past the fire station.
Q  Was your vehicle moving or was your vehicle parked at the time that you received your radio message?
A  We were parked at the time.
Q  And when the message came through, what did you and Specialist Four Morris do?
A  Well, we proceeded to go to 544 Castle Drive.
Q  Do you recall the route that you took at that time?
A  Yes, sir, we went down Honeycutt Road, down past North Lucas, a little bit further down we turned up North Dougherty.
Q  After making that last turn, where did that bring you in connection with 544 Castle Drive?
A  That would have brought us to the corner of Castle Drive and North Dougherty.
Q  And that’s where you eventually--Specialist Morris eventually brought the jeep to a halt?
A  Yes, sir, there was a--some mix-up as to the address.
Q  What address did you go to initially?
A  Well, we went down North Dougherty to begin with.  I believe they gave the address as 544 or 534 North Dougherty.
Q  Now during this time that elapsed and when you first received this radio message until the time that you ultimately arrived at 544 Castle Drive, did you see or observe anything unusual en-route?
A  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Object, it calls for a conclusion.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.  Just ask him what he observed, counselor.

Q  Aside from the existence of the various houses and buildings, did you see any people be-tween the period of time when you received the radio message and when you arrived at 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer approximately what location you observed a per-son?
A  Sir, I observed a person on the corner of Honeycutt Road and North Lucas.
Q  And when did you observe that person in regard to the radio message that you received?
A  We observed this person as we were responding to the message.  It was after we re-ceived the message.
Q  And you were on your way to 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What sex was this person that you observed?
A  Female.
Q  Can you describe to the investigating officer the appearance of that female, including any clothing that she may have had on that you recall?
A  Yes, sir.  She appeared to be wearing a type of a raincoat, dark color, which came to just above her knees.  Also she was wearing a wide-brimmed hat.
Q  Was she a member of the Caucasian race?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you have occasion to note anything about her hair?
A  What I could see--I really didn’t pay that much attention to it at the time--but it ap-peared to be approximately shoulder length.
Q  Do you recall what kind of foot gear she may have had on?
A  No, sir, I don’t.
Q  What was this female doing?
A  She was just standing on the corner.
Q  Was there anything about her standing on the corner at that time that caused you to be attracted to look at her, or be aware of her being there?

CPT SOMERS:  Object.  It calls for a conclusion.

MR. SEGAL:  This witness has already been identified by the government to be assigned to patrol this area.  It seems to me that any patrolman can testify as to whether it is usual or unusual to see a person at the time of night that is involved in that area.  It doesn’t neces-sarily mean that the investigating officer can give any weight to it, but he ought to know whether the, at least the patrol officer thinks this is something common or uncommon in their experience in that area.

CPT SOMERS:  Then the question should be phrased that way.  It’s not the way it was phrased.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.  I think you can rephrase your question, Mr. Segal, and get the results.

Q  Specialist Mica, have you had occasion to patrol this particular area prior to February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How often have you been through there on patrol?
A  I’d say at least fifteen or twenty times.
Q  And have you had occasion to be in this area on patrol in the early morning hours?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you often observe females standing on the corner of the street at that time of the night in that particular area?

CPT SOMERS:  Object, unless he wants to define often.

MR. SEGAL:  The witness can describe it, sir, if he is allowed to answer the question, you will find out.  The witness has already indicated the basis of his experience, and you will then find out has he ever seen anyone there before.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.

Q  What is your answer, Mr. Mica?
A  No, sir, it is not usual.
Q  Have you ever seen, in your experience, a young female standing on the corner at approx-imate time of day while you were patrolling the area?

CPT SOMERS:  Objection to word young.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, counselor.

A  Yes, sir, I would say, I would say I have.
Q  Would you say you’d seen such a thing happen on more than one or two occasions?
A  No, sir, it’s not very common.
Q  By the way, if you have not already done so, would you indicate to us approximately what age you believe the female to be, that you observed standing there?
A  Well, sir, I can’t say for certain.  I don’t think she was an older lady.
Q  Did she appear to be more than 30 years of age?
A  Less than 30, I would say.
Q  Did she appear to you to be in the vicinity of more than 20 years of age, or 20 years of age?
A  I would say probably older than twenty.
Q  Now when you observed this female, what exactly was she doing?
A  She was standing on the corner.
Q  And what was the weather condition at that time?
A  Well, it had been raining previously.  I believe it had just stopped at this time.
Q  What lights were there available at that location?
A  At that location I believe there aren’t any street lights, but there’s a light from the traffic signal.  You have the gas station which was behind this female, and the Main Post Commissa-ry which is across the street.
Q  Were there lights on at the gas station at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was the traffic light operating at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was she standing some proximity to the traffic signal that you can identify for us?
A  Yes, sir, she would have been standing in some light that was cast by the signal.
Q  You indicated that the Post Exchange building was nearby also?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were there any lights on there?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is there any question in your mind that you had an adequate opportunity to observe the clothing that you’ve described and the general facial impression that you’ve described to us?

CPT SOMERS:  Object.  It calls for a conclusion of a rather generous proportion.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Now, Specialist Mica, when you observed this young woman, what, if anything did you do in regard to having made that observation?
A  Well, the only thing I did, sir, was comment to my partner that, more or less a question, you know, what the heck is she doing standing here this time of the morning.
Q  And did Specialist Morris in any way acknowledge your remark or say anything about your remark?
A  I believe he said, I don’t know, something to that effect.
Q  Now you ultimately arrived at 544 Castle Drive, and in your prior testimony you’ve de-scribed certain things that you did when you got there, and ultimately you entered through a door in the utility room and you found the body of Mrs. MacDonald and Captain MacDonald in the master bedroom.  Am I correct in that regard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And in the course of that procedure you ultimately came to a more or less--attending Captain MacDonald.  Am I correct in that way?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And during the course of that time that you were with Captain MacDonald, did you hear him mention or describe the persons whom he said were responsible for the death of his wife and children and the assault upon himself?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did he describe a female being among those persons?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did he say about the description of that female?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  This is completely repetitive.

MR. SEGAL:  This is my witness now, sir, and I’ll--I have the right to put his answer in con-text so that his answer may be properly understood.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, Colonel Rock already knows the description of this witness offered as a government and also upon cross-examination.  Unless you have something new in the de-scription to offer, it would be rather repetitive.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.  The description repeated now is a prelude to something which is not before the investigation.

CPT BEALE:  Okay, the objection is overruled.

Q  What is the description?
A  Sir, Captain MacDonald described this woman as having long hair, muddy boots, wearing a floppy hat, and I believe at the time she was wearing a short skirt.
Q  Did you at that time relate or make any connection between the observation you had made while you were driving with Specialist Morris and the description that Captain MacDon-ald gave to you?

CPT SOMERS:  Object.  It calls for a conclusion.

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir, it calls for the action he took thereafter, and it will only be understood, if he describes his thinking processes.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Captain Somers.

A  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Repeat the question again, please, counselor.  I missed the question.

Q  Specialist Mica, when Captain MacDonald described to you the female person who took part, who was part of the group that assaulted him, his wife and children, did you make any connection between his statement, or think there was any connection between his state-ment and the female you observed on the highway?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what, if anything, did you do as the result of fitting those two pieces of information together?
A  Well, sir, I turned around and Lieutenant Paulk and a few other MP’s were behind me.  I told Lieutenant Paulk at that time that I’d seen a female standing on the corner, and for them to send a patrol down to see if he could find her.
Q  Did Lieutenant Paulk indicate any response to the statement you made to him about the female you had seen?
A  Well, sir, I didn’t pay too much attention to what he did, but he was looking right at me when I told him.  I know he heard it.
Q  Now at the time you observed this female on the highway, was there any reason why you did not stop or make any inquiry to determine who that person was?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what was that reason?
A  Well, sir, we were on a call to respond to 544 Castle Drive.
Q  And was your call in any way indicated to you to be of an urgent nature?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now is it part of your instructions in regard to the patrol of your area that we are talking about that would have advised you or instructed you to stop any persons at an unusual time of the night such as four am in the morning or 3:45 in the morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What instructions do you have in regard to persons found walking on the highway in the residential area at that time in the morning?
A  With regard to the restricted housing area, the only people that are supposed to be in that area are residents.
Q  Then I gather from your answer that you did not recognize the young woman to be a resi-dent of that area, as far as you know?
A  Well, sir, actually she was--she was outside the restricted area.  She was on Honeycutt Road.
Q  Now did you have occasion to tell anyone else, besides Lieutenant Paulk and whoever else was in the room when you made that statement about your observation of this woman and the hat that you described to us?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now who did you tell about this?
A  I believe I described it to Colonel Kriwanek.
Q  And the--Colonel Kriwanek was the Provost Marshal General of this Post back in February 1970?
A  He was Provost Marshal.
Q  He was the Provost Marshal, and at that time do you recall the date or the hour on which you had occasion to tell Colonel Kriwanek about that?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  I recognize that the question of relevancy is relaxed here, but I think this goes well beyond that, to the point of complete irrelevancy.

MR. SEGAL:  There is nothing irrelevant in establishing that a witness who sees a fact, which apparently has a bearing on the description given by Captain MacDonald, that in fact more than just come here and tell about it, but he in fact reported it to other persons at a time it seemed appropriate.

CPT SOMERS:  That goes to the question of the credibility of this witness.  At this time we have not attacked the credibility of this witness.  I don’t think he is permitted to go to credi-bility of this witness in his direct examination.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your objection is overruled.  You may answer the question, Specialist Mica.

WITNESS:  Would you repeat it?

Q  Yes, can you tell us when you told Colonel Kriwanek about this young woman that you saw?
A  Yes, sir, it was early that morning.  I believe it was somewheres around five a.m.
Q  You are talking about the morning of February 17th?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And where were you when you--
A  At that time we were in Colonel Kriwanek’s office.
Q  And what, if anything, did he say when you mentioned that to him?
A  I don’t remember him saying anything, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to mention the description or the observation of this young woman to any other persons concerned with this investigation and the prosecution of this case?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  To whom did you mention it?
A  I remember mentioning it to an FBI agent that questioned me that night.
Q  You say that night.  You mean the evening of February 17th?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now have you had occasion to mention this information that you observed a young woman of the description you have given us to counsel for the government at any time?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  This is completely irrelevant and improper.

MR. SEGAL:  I make an offer of proof, sir, at this time, that in fact--

CPT BEALE:  Just a second, let’s remove the witness if you are going to make an offer of proof.

COL ROCK:  Specialist Mica, you are temporarily excused and you are not to discuss any of your testimony with anyone other than counsel for the government or counsel for the ac-cused.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time I propose to question Specialist Mica about certain conversa-tions that he had with the government, the prosecution in this case, about this information.
You may recall, at the time Specialist Mica was testifying originally on behalf of the govern-ment, you ordered that that the defense be given any statements that Specialist Mica may have given to the prosecution or to the investigating personnel, and at that time a single typed written sworn statement was given.  We believe that if Specialist Mica is permitted, through this line of questioning, that he will testify that he was interviewed by counsel for the government, that his statements were written down by them, including, in fact, his statement that he observed this young woman which may appear to resemble a person who was described by Captain MacDonald, and that at the time the investigating officer ordered all statements made available, the government did not make available that particular state-ment, or in fact, it did not indicate that while it would not make that particular statement available, there was certain other information that this witness had that might be germane to the defense.  But, further, sir, going beyond that, we will show that this witness was specifi-cally told by counsel for the government not to volunteer this information about the observa-tion of the young woman in the case, that we have described here, and I think it is important that the investigating officer have this information before him to rule on further requests by the defense for discovery of government information in view of what we suggest, which could conceivably be found to be a suppression of evidence helpful to the defendant.  It seems to me to be important to establish that Captain MacDonald described certain individuals who were responsible for his own injuries and the death of his children and his wife, and that a person is seen in the vicinity, and we will establish the exact distance very shortly, of his house, and what I consider to be, I think what considers to be, an unusual time of the morn-ing under very unusual weather circumstances, and that a person appears to fit the descrip-tion of one of those persons, that that’s a germane and important fact that should certainly be disclosed because the government, in its case, sir, asked all of these military policemen it called, whether on their patrol they saw anyone, you know, in that particular vicinity, and that in that regard this witness had been instructed not to volunteer seeing just outside of the restricted area this young woman, and yet this area was no more than six or seven blocks from the MacDonald household.  It seems to me the investigating officer has to have that information so he can properly rule on the defense allegation that not all the germane information to truth finding, let alone to the accused case has been presented to us, and for that reason I think we are entitled to be able to ask this line of questioning, which I believe will elicit the answers I’ve already indicated to you this morning.

CPT SOMERS:  Even were the defense to elicit this information, I think that it would not show what it wishes to show, and the government can make offers of proof at this point that it knows that an individual was discovered on the corner, that the defense is speaking about by Sergeant Duffy who testified that he found an individual on that corner, I think, in this hear-ing.  For that reason it was not of any particular significance.  Any statements that the de-fense may have reference to at this point are the personal product of attorneys which are not subject to the production in this hearing.  There are no sworn statements by this witness not made available.  The government at this point will freely admit that when asked for ad-vice on testimony by any of the government’s witnesses, the government informed those witnesses that the best technique was not to volunteer any information, but to be ques-tioned on any subject which the defense chose to question them on, and further that the government instructed these witnesses to answer all questions truthfully and to the best of their knowledge.  We submit again that the line of questioning that the defense is attempting to invoke is irrelevant and improper.

MR. SEGAL:  I wish to respond to one very important area, sir, and that is, I would agree that if the government was asked, and I believe the words of Captain Somers were, that he would freely admit that when asked for advice, my offer of proof includes, sir, the statement to you that I believe this witness will testify that he never asked or intimated or suggested to coun-sel for the government that he needed any advice about testimony.  But to the contrary, my offer of proof includes the allegation that Specialist Mica, when he gave this specific fact to counsel for the government, was told by them not to, was asked first of all whether he had given it to the defense at that time, and was told thereafter not to volunteer it, and that he did not ask for any advice; and I suggest to you, sir, again that it is most germane to other rulings as what documentation might be available to this defense.  Secondly, it is germane to the decision by the investigating officer as to whether or not the government has attempted in fact to present all the facts it knows, or only selectively present facts and omitting what I think again is a crucial fact.  There is another witness, sir, who will be--if we cannot call that witness, we will establish that the government knows of a second witness whom it has al-lowed to leave the post, who testified that it saw--she saw a young woman running from the vicinity of the MacDonald house and it will be in context with Specialist Mica’s information.
And with that kind of a picture, sir, it seems to me imperative that we not rule out of the re-cord of this case how the investigators and the prosecution have selectively tried to con-struct out of thin air the accusation against Captain MacDonald, and in doing so, in the face of substantial evidence, that they did not use it, to at least say to the defense, you ought to be aware that there are certain witnesses, because this obviously fits exactly what you’ve said of the way the case took place and the way the crime could have happened.  It seems to me this goes to a very fundamental constitutional issue, sir, where the government may, by claiming it was only giving advice when it was asked to, may reverse its role and tell a witness he should not give information when it knows under decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States which are binding in this tribunal, as any other military tribunal, that no prosecutor may suppress evidence knowing that that evidence may be helpful to the de-fense.  And it seems to me that may, in fact, be one of the issues that you are confronted with in this investigation.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the government has already explained that it has not suppressed any-thing, and explained that explanation in detail.  The government is under no obligation by the case of Brady versus Maryland, out of the Supreme Court, to provide to trial any information which may be helpful to the defense.  We’ve already explained too, that the government knew that an individual was found on this corner, that in fact the individual proved to be a man, not a woman, and that for that reason, the government does not feel that is particu-larly germane, however, the evidence came in through Duffy that he found such an indivi-dual.  Again, we say that the line of questioning which the defense is now following is incom-petent, irrelevant, and we request that it not be permitted to continue.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your objection has been noted.  Because this line of question-ing does not elicit any new facts, doesn’t appear to be going towards eliciting new facts, then unless it does so at a later time, unless it shows that it is going to elicit some facts that are germane to the question we have before us, as to whether or not there is enough evi-dence to warrant a trial for Captain MacDonald, this line of questioning will be terminated, and you can solicit your facts that you want from this witness, but as far as what Captain Somers may or may not have been told, Colonel Rock is not concerned with that.  

MR. SEGAL:  May I just observe, sir, that I couldn’t agree with you more as to whether or not there are facts that justify a recommendation that Captain MacDonald be--stand trial before a court-martial, but I don’t know how the investigating officer can ever arrive at that conclu-sion if he is not permitted to fully understand the nature in which this investigation took place; that this is not an ordinary investigation or ordinary case.  It is some really extraordi-nary thing apparently happened in the early hours of the 17th of February, and one of them continued to happen thereafter and that the--that is not all of the information brought to the persons who should know it, and it seems to me that this investigating officer should know that there was not only this young blond lady, or young lady with long hair seen by Specialist Mica, but that there are other witnesses who corroborated this, who have never been made available or told the investigating officer they exist, and there can be no proper decision made as to whether there are enough facts unless you know whether or not the government is presenting the facts that are important to it.  I do not expect the government to make out the accused’s case for him, but I do say, sir, that in all candidness this is the kind of fact that looms much larger, much more extraordinary larger than even, say, the missing wallet in the MacDonald house would seem was an unusual fact.  The presence in this area at this time of someone who was revealed, and who the government, may I say, sir, made an active effort to suppress that information must be known on the record of this case.

CPT BEALE:  On your direct examination, Mr. Segal, now you can bring any and all facts that you care to about what this witness may or may not have known.

MR. SEGAL:  Very well, sir.

CPT BEALE:  However, as far as his conduct was with Captain Somers, it is not germane to the issue at hand.  So, if you would, bring Specialist Mica back in.

MR. SEGAL:  Do I understand you, sir that we are not permitted to ask Specialist Mica any other questions about what he was told, as to what he should say to the defense about the existence of this young woman?

CPT BEALE:  That is correct.

(Specialist Mica returned, saluted the IO and resumed his seat.)

COL ROCK:  Specialist Mica, you are again reminded that you are under oath.  Proceed, coun-selor.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Specialist Mica, could you tell us please what distance from 544 Castle Drive the location was that you observed the young woman you described?
A  Yes, sir, it is approximately four or five blocks.
Q  Have you ever seen, since February 17th, 1970, a picture of the--that resembles the young woman whom you saw that morning?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  At this time I ask to have marked as an accused’s exhibit--

(A drawing was shown to counsel for the government.)

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, before this picture is shown to the witness, which I gather is the inten-tion, I think the defense should make some offer of proof as to what it is and why it is rele-vant.

COL ROCK:  Yes, I was going to request that.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, of course.  First of all, we would also request that this be done out of the hearing of this witness.

COL ROCK:  You are excused again, Specialist Mica.  You are reminded again not to discuss your testimony with anyone other than counsel for the government or counsel for the ac-cused.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  This witness has been asked, sir, by me as to whether he has ever seen a pic-ture of a person who resembled the young woman he saw on the corner of Honeycutt Drive on the morning of 17 February, and I am now showing him a photograph, that establishes first of all, sir--

COL ROCK:  Photograph?

MR. SEGAL:  A picture, rather.  We are now showing a picture of a face of a young woman, which he, I believe, will identify as being a picture he has seen before, and is a likeness--substantial regard to his ability to observe--to the young woman he saw.  So that in that sense the picture speaks for itself in that this witness says it resembles a person.  It is obvi-ously not a photograph of a person, but is a drawing and he will identify it therefore as being the likeness that he recalls of the person he saw.  So in that regard the picture itself be-comes of evidential value, because this witness can identify--he could pick up a magazine and say this picture resembles the person, and it would speak for itself because it gives evi-dentiary report.  What this represents is a drawing prepared by a John Princkle, P-r-i-n-c-k-l-e, who is a former police artist with the Crime Laboratory with the city of Philadelphia Police Department, employed by that agency for a number of years in the capacity of preparing drawings of suspects, drawings of persons wanted by the police in connection with the in-vestigations, and that he recently left the Philadelphia Police Department to take employment with the General Electric Corporation as an artist, and at the request of the accused, pre-pared this photograph based upon interviews with Captain MacDonald using a standard tech-nique for preparing a photograph by the composite artist techniques used generally by crimi-nal investigators.  Like I said, this is not offered to prove that this is in fact, the appearance of the person who killed Mrs. MacDonald and the children and was involved there, but is of-fered to prove that this witness saw a person who looked like this.  Later on, when Captain MacDonald is called, as we expect, sir, he will identify further the relationship of this photo-graph and testify as to how the photograph--the drawing came to be made and was made in his presence, using him and the technique, and if there is anything further we can, of course, supply the affidavit of Mr. Princkle, although, again, it is standard investigative technique, which I would think the government is aware of how it took place and how this kind of work is done.

COL ROCK:  Would you please recall the witness?

CPT BEALE:  Let the record reflect that the artist’s sketch, marked A-31 will be admitted for use by the witness.

(Specialist Mica returned and was reminded of his oath.)

COL ROCK:  Accused Exhibit A-31, drawing of young female.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time I request permission at a later time to substitute a photograph of this original drawing so that we may preserve this because it is somewhat fragile, and can be smeared rather easily.

COL ROCK:  Permission granted.

Q  Now I show you a drawing which has been identified as A-31 and ask you, Specialist Mica, whether this drawing resembles the young woman that you saw on the corner of Honeycutt Drive on--

CPT SOMERS:  Object as tremendously leading.

MR. SEGAL:  All right, I withdraw the question.

Q  Does that drawing represent anything that you have ever seen before in a human being?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What does it represent to you?
A  It represents a--what appears to be a female Caucasian with long hair, wide-brimmed flop-py hat.
Q  Does it resemble any person that you believe you have seen?
A  It could, sir.
Q  Who do you believe it could represent?
A  Possibly the girl that I saw on the corner that night.

MR. SEGAL:  You may cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you describe for us, please, just exactly what this female looked like you saw on the corner of Honeycutt and Lucas?
A  Yes, sir.  From what I remember she had on a wide-brimmed hat, what appeared to be a raincoat, trench coat type, came just above her--her knees, and she appeared to have long hair.
Q  What color was her hair?
A  I don’t remember, sir.
Q  Describe the lighting conditions, please, for us of the spot where she was standing?
A  Yes, sir.  I don’t believe there was a street light there.  The traffic signal faces the direc-tion she was standing.
Q  You say--go ahead.
A  There was a gas station which would have been to her rear and the Commissary Exchange which was across the street, which was lighted.
Q  Was there anything that would have been between her and that gas station?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Trees or anything of that nature?
A  Yes, sir, trees.
Q  And you described this woman as wearing a wide-brimmed hat.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was that wide-brimmed throwing a shadow on her face?
A  I don’t know, sir.
Q  Describe her facial details for us, please.
A  I couldn’t describe her face.
Q  What color were her eyes?
A  I don’t know, sir.
Q  You described this woman as being apparently between the age of twenty and thirty.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What specifically leads you to believe that she was between twenty and thirty?       
A  Well, sir, the majority--the majority of women I’ve seen over thirty, thirty-five, seem to get a little bit over weight, and a little bit out of shape.  She seemed to be pretty good.
Q  You say she was wearing a raincoat?
A  I believe it was a raincoat, sir.
Q  Some kind of a coat?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And how much of her figure was visible with this coat on?
A  Well, sir, just--actually the only part that was visible under the coat was right above her knees on down.
Q  You don’t really know what kind of shape this woman was in, do you?
A  Well, the only way I could judge, you know, is comparison to other people I’ve seen wear-ing raincoats.  She had pretty nice legs.
Q  From her knees down?
A  Yes.
Q  And how long did you observe this person?
A  I’d say only three or four seconds.
Q  So I gather from what you are saying that you could see her legs from the knees down and they looked pretty good to you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I gather then that she wasn’t wearing boots?
A  I don’t remember, sir.
Q  Have you ever seen a raincoat that has a hood which drops down behind it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you be sure that what you are describing as long hair could not have been a hood dropping down behind this hat?
A  It could possibly be.
Q  How far from the gas station was this girl standing?
A  Well, sir, she was right off the sidewalk, standing on the grass at the corner of Honeycutt and Lucas.  I don’t know exactly how far from the gas station that is.
Q  And which of the four corners was she standing on?
A  She was standing on the corner by the gas station, same side as the gas station.
Q  And who else saw this girl?
A  I don’t know, sir.
Q  Did Morris?
A  I don’t know if he saw her.  I don’t believe he did.
Q  What was she doing there?
A  She was just standing there.
Q  She wasn’t running?
A  No, sir.
Q  Who was with her?
A  No one I could see.
Q  There weren’t two Caucasian males and a male Negro with her?
A  No, sir.
Q  And this area she was standing in, did you say that that is not in Corregidor Housing Area?
A  Well, sir, the way we define our patrol areas, that’s actually the--Anzio Acres.
Q  But it is not Corregidor Courts?
A  No, sir.
Q  How much light does this signal light that you are describing throw?  Does it light up the whole area?
A  No, sir, it doesn’t light up the whole area.
Q  Is it one of the normal signals with red, yellow and green light?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And do those lights have shields around them?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  The commissary that you refer to in this area, this is in the Mallonee Shopping Center, is it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And that is an annex to the Main Post Commissary, is it not?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you remember telling a Mr. Wice of the Provost Marshal Investigating Office about this girl?
A  No, sir.
Q  If I was to tell you that Mr. Wice says that you did tell him about this on the 17th of Feb-ruary, would you say that was impossible?

MR. SEGAL:  I would object, sir, if this is a suggestion that there is supposedly a statement that this witness made to some other persons such as Mr. Wice, and I suggest that we--that in accord with your prior ruling--that he be shown either this statement that Mr. Wice said that Specialist Mica made, or the statement of Mr. Wice in which it purports to state what Mr. Mica said in his presence, and in either way, it would be more helpful to have the witness see the statement so he could answer more intelligently, because he has already said to his recollection he’s never made any statement to Mr. Wice.

CPT SOMERS:  There is no statement in writing.  I’m asking him if he is saying that it is im-possible that he made such a statement to Mr. Wice.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, your objection is overruled.

A  No, sir, I never made a direct statement to Mr. Wice.
Q  Is it possible that Mr. Wice was present?
A  No, sir.
Q  That’s not impossible?
A  No, sir.
Q  If I were to tell you that Mr. Wice is of the opinion that at the time you made the state-ment concerning this girl that you said she was not wearing a hat, would you say that was impossible?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Counselor, now the witness has answered in the negative, that he has not or did not make such a statement to this witness.  Now, if you want to elicit whatever informa-tion that came out of that result of the conversation with this witness--that he said to Mr. Wice--you will be required to call Mr. Wice.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, I think the witness has said that it is possible that Mr. Wice heard the statement he made.

MR. SEGAL:  The man on the moon may have heard it, but there is no evidence that Mr. Wice heard it.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

Q  Now, Specialist Mica, what time did you estimate you saw this woman?
A  Sir.  This was while we were en-route to answer the call at 544 Castle Drive.  I would say
--somewhere in the area of 03:45 hours--or 0350 hours.
Q  And about what time was it when you told Lieutenant Paulk about this?
A  I’d say it was a good ten minutes after I’d been inside the house, after we’d arrived at the scene.
Q  Sometime after four o’clock?
A  Yes, sir, around four o’clock.
Q  I show you exhibit 31 for the accused, which you have testified concerning.  You said it possibly could be the woman that you saw on the corner.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you tell us what facial characteristics this picture shows that are similar to the ones that you saw on this corner?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to as an improper question.  The witness did not say he picked out a single characteristic.  One way of identifying is by finding a characteristic, and my un-derstanding of his testimony, is that he saw a face and this face resembled that face, not that a single facet stood out.  He never suggested it.  To permit any line of examination dealing with individual facets is to take this witness’ testimony and twist it.

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.

Q  What specific characteristics, facial characteristics, of the girl in A-31 are like those of the woman on the corner?
A  Sir, there are no facial characteristics that I can identify.
Q  Then you are identifying what?  A hat and some long hair?
A  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I see.  No further questions.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Specialist Mica, in regard to the drawing that you have been shown, does the face, taking the total entity of all the features and all the rest of it, resemble the face that you saw on the morning of 17 February at Honeycutt Drive?
A  It could possibly be, sir.
Q  And that is--you say it could possibly be--because the features seem to be generally the same type?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.

MR. SEGAL:  May I finish my question, sir?

CPT BEALE:  Give him the courtesy of letting him ask his entire question.

CPT SOMERS:  I’m sorry.  I thought he was finished.

Q  Is it because the features appear to resemble the placement and shape of the same fea-tures you saw on the woman at Honeycutt Drive on the 17th of February?  I am finished.

CPT SOMERS:  Now, I do object.

MR. SEGAL:  It has to be at this point able to direct the witness’ attention to the specific facts involved here.  Now either he does or doesn’t have a basis.  While he is here he can be questioned about it, whether it resembled it or doesn’t.  It is acceptable to many answers.  It is not a leading question, and it calls for a person to give an opinion about whether somebody looks like somebody else, and there is no other way to give an opinion about identification.
You have to say what you think about it and what you know.  Only the factor finder will say what he did know.

CPT SOMERS:  The defense counsel has asked a lengthy question, giving an explanation of resemblance, to which only the answer, yes, is required and then the entire answer given by the witness is assumed in the defense counsel’s question.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.  Rephrase your question, Mr. Segal.

COL ROCK:  Please try to make them as simple as possible for my edification.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

Q  Does this picture resemble the face of the young woman on Honeycutt Drive?

CPT SOMERS:  Objection.  It’s already been answered twice, three times.

MR. SEGAL:  The cross-examination purports to shake the identification only of the hat and the hair.  I’m asking now about the face.  I would like the right to rehabilitate my own wit-ness, if there is, in fact, an impeachment.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

Q  Specialist Mica, did you tell Colonel Kriwanek on the morning of February 17th, 1970, the same description you have given us here this morning in court?
A  Yes, sir, I believe I did.
Q  Did you tell the FBI agent when he interviewed you subsequently the same description you have given here in court?
A  I believe I did, sir.
Q  Did you tell Captain Somers and Captain Thompson the same description as you have giv-en here in court?

CPT BEALE:  Now Mr. Segal, that’s already been ruled upon.

MR. SEGAL:  There’s a suggestion here that’s been made that Mr. Wice has heard something contrary.  I wish to suggest that this witness has told a number of persons on different oc-casions the description the same as today and particularly, counsel for the government are in a position to tell us whether in fact the witness has not done that for their own personal knowledge in their own personal experience with this witness.

CPT BEALE:  The ruling has been made and he will not be required to answer that question.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further at this time.

CPT BEALE:  Re-cross?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Then in the descriptions you have given to other people--isn’t it true that you never once have gone over the facial features of this woman?
A  Yes.
Q  Because you didn’t know those facial features, did you?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

COL ROCK:  I have several questions of the witness.  I would like to at this time have a dia-gram entered into evidence of this location, because I don’t think the record will clearly re-flect it.  Does counsel for the accused have such a diagram?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, I believe I have an unmarked one here.

COL ROCK:  The one you have there is not sufficient for my use.  What I am proposing is that we have a little conference here at the table with the witness drawing certain locations, and identifying them or perhaps even better if I draw it as I understand it, and having Specialist Mica correct me.

(The witness and all counsel approached the investigating officer’s table.)

COL ROCK:  Specialist Mica, I present to you herewith a hand-drawn diagram depicting the location which you have described to me as being at the corner of Honeycutt and Lucas.  On this diagram is indicated the approximate position of the Commissary, approximate position of the filling station, and the approximate location of Corregidor Courts housing area.  On this diagram there is an X in black, marking the location of the stop light; an X in red, marking the location of the young woman, as you saw her; a red arrow indicating the direction the young woman was facing when you saw her; and a blue outline indicating some bushes behind the young woman.  Does this diagram accurately reflect the location as you remember it that evening?


COL ROCK:  And have you signed and dated this exhibit?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Accused Exhibit 32, diagram of location of young woman.
    At the time that you saw this young lady were you approaching along Honeycutt and heading towards 544 Castle Drive?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  At the time you observed the young lady, did you have to stop your vehicle?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, my partner stopped.  We had a red traffic light at that time.

COL ROCK:  Approximately how long were you at the stop light?

WITNESS:  I’d say four or five seconds.

COL ROCK:  What type of vehicle were you in?

WITNESS:  Jeep, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did the jeep have side curtains?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And are those side curtains covered with some type of plastic covering?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Were there any rain drops on the vehicle at that time?

WITNESS:  Well, sir, I don’t remember exactly.  I know it had been raining.  I don’t know if there were drops on the sides or not.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.  May I have A-32?  I want to ask the witness, if I may Colonel Rock, to mark on the drawing the location of his jeep at the time it was stopped in reference to the position of the young woman and we will use a red marking pen, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  May I ask you to indicate, Specialist Mica, where in reference to the X mark with an arrow that we’ve already placed on this drawing, which represents the young lady and the direction she was facing, the jeep was when it stopped for the red light?  If you will make a rectangu-lar block there indicating the jeep.  And would you make an arrow at the head of that jeep indicating which direction it was going?

(Witness complied.)

MR. SEGAL:  Am I noting at the bottom, sir, in similar colored ink, a rectangle indicating the military police jeep.  And you were sitting on which side?  The left side or the right side?
A  The right side, sir.
Q  So that you were nearest to the curb?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Which meant you were nearest to this young lady?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  About how many feet would you say it was from where you were to where this young lady was standing?
A  I’d say approximately twelve to fifteen feet.
Q  Is there any doubt in your mind that you saw this young lady you have described standing there at that time on February 17th, 1970?
A  No, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all.

COL ROCK:  Re-cross?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Specialist Mica, when you stopped at this stop light, were you running with your lights and siren on?
A  We had our red light on, sir.
Q  Why did you stop?
A  Well, sir, we wanted to make sure there was no traffic coming through the intersection.
Q  I see.  So you stopped just long enough to make sure there were no traffic?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And it was not the light that stopped you?  You did not stay there for the duration of the red light?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you.  Sir, we ask that this witness be held available.  I understand there is some difficulty in regard to--his unit may be on some order to go to another post, but we have reason to believe we may need Specialist Mica later on this week again in regard to other matters.

CPT SOMERS:  I don’t know whether I can accomplish that.  I’ll try, sir.  I would note that this witness does not appear on any of the witness list that that the defense has given us.
If they know at this time of any other witnesses that they are going to call that they have not listed, we’d appreciate being apprised of it.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, sir, that’s quite true, except it was a government witness, so that they have apparently had full opportunity to interview him for months before the case, so there’s no surprise in anything that we have said.  We will, of course, try to advise the government promptly of any witness we intend to call, even if they have seen them before.

COL ROCK:  Will counsel for the government please check to determine if there is any unusual problems in making the witness available later in the week?  I am sure that his presence will not be required after Friday.

CPT SOMERS:  I can check.  I can say now, sir, that I know that there is a problem, because his unit is among those which are to be posted along the line of this nerve gas shipment, but I will do my best to have him held.

COL ROCK:  Specialist Mica, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no per-son other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are temporarily excused.

(The witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  In view of the hour, does counsel for the accused intend to proceed at this time, or--

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, if it is not inconvenient to the investigating officer, we have a witness by telephone we have made arrangements for, and I think that her testimony will be relatively short, but I would--at least if we start it, if there are any questions, she would remain avail-able, other wise she has other personal matters.

COL ROCK:  How long will this take to get together?

MR. SEGAL:  Just two minutes, sir.  We can take a recess in place.

COL ROCK:  All right, we will recess in place.

(The hearing recessed at 1120 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1124 hours, 10 August 1970, when telephone contact was made with Mrs. Winnie Casper, who testified as follows.)

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Casper, this is Colonel Rock.  Would you state your name?

WITNESS:  Winnie A. Casper.

COL ROCK:  Would you please raise your right hand?  Is your right hand up?

WITNESS:  Yes, it is.

(Mrs. Casper was sworn.)

COL ROCK:  The next voice you will hear will be that of Mr. Segal, who is counsel for the ac-cused, who will ask you certain questions.  One moment.

Questions by MR.SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Casper?
A  Yes.
Q  What is your present address, please?
A  400 North 25th Street, Mineral Wells, Texas.
Q  Did you, previously to your present address, reside in Fort Bragg, North Carolina area?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Where did you reside?
A  334 North Dougherty Drive, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  And from when until when did you reside at that address?
A  From October of ’69 to June ’70.
Q  What connection did your husband have with the United States Army on Fort Bragg at that time?
A  He was with the Army Personnel Training Company at the Personnel Center.
Q  Mrs. Casper, what was the last date you say you lived at Dougherty Drive?
A  The last day I lived at North Dougherty was on June 12.
Q  Of 1970?
A  Yes.
Q  And at that time your husband was transferred to another station?
A  Yes, he was.
Q  And what is his present station?
A  He is with the Flight Training School at Fort Wolters.
Q  Now, would you tell us where your previous residence, the one on Dougherty Drive at Fort Bragg, was in reference to 544 Castle Drive?
A  That residence on Castle Drive faced the street--we were in a--a sort of U-shaped apart-ment complex.  Mine was across the street and down two complexes.  The back of that resi-dence faces the side of our house, of our apartment.
Q  Can you indicate to us in perhaps either a full block or half block?
A  Well, it was a half block, you know, a half block.
Q  So that the address at which you lived at Dougherty Drive, you say was about a half block from 544 Castle Drive?
A  That’s correct.
Q  From your residence, could you see 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, not from the front, just the back.
Q  You could see the back of 544 Castle Drive.  Now on the evening of February 16th, that’s 1970, were you at home?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  And who else resided in your home at that time?
A  My children, my two children and my husband.
Q  Do you recall what time you went to sleep on February 16th?
A  Well, I went to bed between 11:30 and twelve.  I’d say 11:45 p.m.  I don’t know what time I went to sleep.  It was a good half hour, I would say.  I was just drifting off to sleep--
Q  Now, do you know when the next definite time that you can fix for us that you were awake?
A  3:45 a.m.
Q  Now, what was it that caused you to be awake at 3:45 a.m.?
A  My daughter woke up.
Q  And how old is your daughter?
A  She was then two and a half.
Q  Is there some particular reason how you can fix the 3:45 a.m. time?
A  Well, I looked at the clock, for one thing, and she wakes early, well, I would say 90% of the time, to go to the bathroom at four in the morning and before four, usually then she goes back to sleep.
Q  Now, between the time when you went to your bedroom around 11:45 and this 3:45 a.m. on the 17th of February, when you noted the--that you went to get your daughter for the bathroom operation, had you had any other occasion to be awakened between those two times?
A  Well, yes.  I was just--well, not quite awake and drifting off to sleep when I heard laugh-ing and scuffling outside of my window, and though we are on the second story and I didn’t think anything about it at the time and it was--
Q  It was drifting away from the house, you say the sounds you heard outside the house?
A  Yes, the sounds were going away from the house.
Q  And would that be coming from the direction of 544 Castle Drive and going away from it?
A  No, well, going towards it.  They were just, you know, like going towards the street, pas-sing my window, going towards the street.  In order to go to 544 Castle Drive they would have had to cross the street, if that was where they were going.  They weren’t coming to-wards my house.  They were coming away from my house.
Q  Now can you describe for us, please, how many voices that you heard and anything about the voices, or the particular voice quality that you recall hearing at that time?
A  Well, I heard, distinctly I heard two different male voices and one definite female voice.  I thought it was teenagers because it was a high pitched voice.  Well, really a giggle, exactly what it was, and two male voices.  One was lower and one was higher, and I could tell the difference.
Q  Now, did you have occasion to mention your observation of the voices to anyone else in your house?
A  No, not at the time, no.
Q  Did you have occasion at any time shortly thereafter?
A  Yes, the following morning.  Well, the following evening really.
Q  You are talking about the evening of February 17th?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you learn of the deaths at the MacDonald house at any time during the day of Febru-ary 17th?
A  Yes, I learned about it about eleven o’clock in the morning.
Q  In the morning.  And what was the circumstances that you came to discuss the voices that you heard earlier that morning on the 17th with anyone else in your house?
A  Well, my husband came home for something and I had been--because it was raining and drizzling out.  So he came home for supper and--and said that, did you hear something last night, did something wake you up last night, and I said, yes it did, and he said well, was it kind of laughing, you know, sound like the kids next door, and I said, yes, it did sound like the kids next door, because, you know--and he said, yeah, it’s kind of funny.  So that’s how I knew I wasn’t dreaming.
Q  And you said your husband had mentioned this to you before you, yourself, had described to him the voices.  Would you please give us, for the record, your husband’s full name?
A  His rank and everything?
Q  Please.
A  First Lieutenant Edwin George Casper II.
Q  Spell his last name, please.
A  C-a-s-p-e-r, Casper.
Q  Now did any person concerned with the investigation of the deaths at the MacDonald house ever speak to you about the information you have just given the investigating officer?
A  Did anyone--pardon me?
Q  Did any investigator, any military police investigator or the CID--
A  Oh, the CID came.  Is that what you mean?  There were two men--came from the CID that same evening at five-thirty or six o’clock in the evening.
Q  And did they inquire of you as to what you heard or saw during the early morning hours of February 17th?
A  Yes, they did.
Q  And what if anything, did you tell?
A  I told them that we heard voices and--and--
Q  And was your husband also there at the time?
A  Yes, he was.
Q  Did he make a similar statement to the CID?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you indicate to the CID the same description, that is that there were two male voices and one high-pitched voice and one low-pitched?
A  I don’t remember if I was that specific, but I think--I think I said we did hear voices and they were under the window that night, and I don’t remember if I was specific at all.
Q  Now, if I may ask you, Mrs. Casper, do you know whether the other apartment or houses leading away from where you live, that is going in the direction which the voices seemed to be going, whether they were occupied at the time of February 17th?
A  There was only one, if I was standing at my window, there would be only apartment occu-pied, there was only one left.  I was at the end of the complex and it wasn’t occupied--it was occupied, but the other two where the teenagers lived when we moved there, they were both empty, the two to my left.
Q  So the two apartments to your left were vacant at the time you are talking about?
A  Yes.
Q  The end apartment of that building in which you lived was occupied?
A  Yes.
Q  Were there any young people who lived there that you know of that were teenagers or slightly older bracket?
A  No, no, they were all small children, three or five; and there were only in the complex, there was only one teenager, and she was--well, she was thirteen.
Q  Were there, to your knowledge, on the late evening of February 16th or the early morning hours of February 17th, any parties of any notable sort that you would know about that were going on in the vicinity of Dougherty Drive?
A  No, none at all.
Q  Bear with me a second, please.  Mrs. Casper, please one last thing before counsel for the government may ask you some questions.  You are apparently not able to fix the time, as I understand it, any more closely than between this 11:45 p.m. on the 16th, and 3:45 a.m. on the 17th that you heard these voices?
A  That’s right.
Q  But there’s no question that you heard those voices during that period, sometime during that period?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  It’s leading and is repetitive.  I ask that it be stricken.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

MR. SEGAL:  Do I gather--I’ll go through the whole discussion again, because it’s unclear from a fragment of the phrase that she said as to whether the time has been established, or her ability to fix a time.  To establish it, I’ll go through it all again if you think it is necessary.  But it seems to me, the government having an opportunity to cross-examine--

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, she’s already testified that she doesn’t know the time.

MR. SEGAL:  Under the circumstances, it seems to me that all she’s testified is the negative, that she cannot fix the time.  I don’t want anyone to misunderstand the record.  I think it’s conceivably misunderstood that she’s attempting to fix any better than 11:45 p.m. and 3:45 a.m.  If the government wants to do anything more, they can.  It seems to me that answer is harmless.  If the government thinks it is important to establish it clearly--we are not offer-ing to prove a specific moment, because we know this lady can’t give us that kind of answer.

COL ROCK:  That’s the way I understood it.

CPT SOMERS:  That’s not the most recent question, anyway.  That’s not the one I objected to.

CPT BEALE:  The question has been lost anyway.  Just rephrase the question.

Q  If I may, I’m going to rephrase the question.  Is there any way that you can be more spe-cific as to the time you heard these voices other than it was between 11:45 p.m. and 3:45 a.m.?
A  No, there isn’t.  I didn’t even look at the clock.  When I heard the voices I didn’t look at the clock.

MR. SEGAL:  All right, thank you very much, and I think Captain Somers, counsel for the gov-ernment may have some questions for you at this time.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Can you hear me, Mrs. Casper?
A  Yes, I can.
Q  It‘s not clear to me what the relationship is between your apartment and the apartment of Captain MacDonald.
A  Well, it’s very difficult--the back of the MacDonald complex, if I am not mistaken, there are, I would say four apartments in one complex, in his complex.  There are say eight, maybe fifteen in ours.  Ours was a U-shaped complex on our side of the street on North Dougherty.  The back of his apartment complex there faced our front--we, my side of my apartment.  The side of our apartment faces--there were no apartments facing our complex.  They were set back maybe fifty yards from the street in a horseshoe-shaped complex.  We--they all face one another.  We could see this resident on Castle Drive from my daughter’s bedroom, and that’s all I can explain about it.
Q  Now, you are familiar, I presume, with the intersection of Castle and Dougherty there?
A  Very well, yes.
Q  Was your apartment complex on the same side, the closer side of Dougherty or the other side of Dougherty?
A  No, it was closer.  If you were coming out of the intersection, you would first turn left, go up one complex and then that would be ours.
Q  On which side of the road?
A  On the left, coming out of Castle Drive.  At the intersection you would turn to the left, go up one--you are facing one complex--the next complex would be ours.
Q  Were there any buildings blocking any part of your view of that area?
A  There was one.  I could not see the complete--as I say the bedroom area of the MacDon-ald residence, I could see their back, I think their kitchen door and everything to the right of that.  I could not see to the left of the kitchen door because there was a duplex right in front of the MacDonald’s, in the yard and that blocked our view.
Q  Now you are saying that you could not see the end of the MacDonald residence from the rest of the building?
A  Yes, I could not see the whole--where their bedroom was, I could not see that, but I could see the kitchen door and the lights and, I believe, one window.
Q  Which window in your house would you be looking out of when you saw that?
A  My daughter’s window, facing the street.
Q  Now estimate for me, please, as best you can, the distance in feet or yards between that window and the MacDonald apartment?
A  I would say about 200 yards, anyway.
Q  In other words, 600 feet?
A  Yes.
Q  When you first heard these voices you’ve described, where did they appear to be?
A  They were underneath--
Q  Excuse me just one moment.  We are having interference.  All right, would you repeat that answer?
A  They were underneath our bedroom window and to the left.  Our windows were open.
Q  And they were close to your apartment when you first heard them?
A  Yes, definitely.
Q  And in what direction did they seem to be going?
A  They were going towards Dougherty, towards the street.
Q  Toward Dougherty?
A  Yes, the street there in front of our house.
Q  Did you see the people that these voices belonged to?
A  No, I did not.
Q  And would you describe for us, please, the female voice again?
A  I heard no talking.  I heard laughing and giggling, and a high--I would say it was a young person because we had teenagers in our--and it was high giggle.
Q  Did you hear anything that was said from any of the three voices?
A  No, I did not.  I didn’t hear any conversation at all.
Q  You cannot estimate for us whether this was closer in time than to 3:45 or to 11:30?
A  It was closer to 3:45.  It was not 11:45.  It was closer to that time because I had been in bed, oh, I don’t know, quite a while, and was just drifting off to sleep and I heard this, and it was definitely not 11:45.  That’s about the time I went to bed.
Q  Now you’ve described scuffling sounds?
A  Yes.
Q  And you’ve also said you heard someone running.  Are you referring to the same sound?
A  Yes.  It was like--like pushing one another and then like running, this sort of thing, pushing one another and laughing, or joking or running, just scuffling sounds.
Q  Where is your husband right now, ma’am?
A  My husband is in classes now at Fort Wolters.
Q  He is in the Continental United States?
A  Oh, definitely, yes.
Q  Now you say you remember being interviewed by two CID people?
A  Yes.
Q  Could these people have been named Judson and Parker, or do you know?
A  Right.  I can’t remember--I don’t remember--I don’t know.
Q  If I told you their names were Judson and Parker, would that seem possible?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.

A  That would be possible, because I couldn’t say for sure.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  Possible.  It again opens up a lot of things we are not going to go into.  She said, she didn’t know the names of the CID men.  I doubt they left a calling card.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, can you indicate for us?

CPT SOMERS:  Well, as a matter of fact she did speak, I think--

CPT BEALE:  Do you have evidence?

CPT SOMERS:  I think I can--I think I can indicate that she did, in fact, speak to Judson and Parker.  It’s of no real concern to me who they were.

CPT BEALE:  She says she doesn’t know, so lets move on to another area.  The objection is sustained.

Q  Can you hear me now?
A  Yes.
Q  You did, in fact, then speak to two CID people?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  If I were to tell you that you told those people that you went to bed at 10:30, would you say that was impossible?
A  That I went to bed at 10:30?
Q  Yes.
A  Oh, gee, no, that’s impossible.
Q  You couldn’t have told them that?
A  No, because I remember watching the weather very definitely.
Q  If I were to tell you that you told these people that you heard these footsteps running at sometime between seven and nine-thirty in the evening, would you say that was impossible?
A  Yes, I would, very definitely, yes.
Q  Then you did not tell them either of those things.  Is that correct?
A  I certainly did not.
Q  Now you testified that there were no parties that you knew of on Dougherty Drive.  Does that mean that there could not have been any parties on Dougherty Drive?
A  Well, I certainly don’t know.  I just know that there weren’t none that I knew of.
Q  Then there could have been parties in that area?
A  Well, certainly.
Q  Mrs. Casper, did the CID speak to your husband at the time they spoke to you?
A  Yes, yes, they spoke to both of us, yes, um-hum.  We were eating dinner and they came.
Q  Did you hear what your husband told them?
A  Did I hear?  I suppose I did.  I--at the time I don’t remember what he said.  We were both there, and I was with the children, back cleaning the table off and that sort of thing, and I couldn’t tell you exactly what he told them.  No.
Q  To the best of your knowledge, was what he told them similar to what you told them?
A  Yes, I--to the best of my knowledge, yes.  I don’t know exactly, I couldn’t tell you exactly word for word what he said.
Q  What time did your husband go to bed that evening?
A  Early, as I remember.  I think maybe ten.
Q  Would you repeat that answer, please?
A  I think ten.  I really don’t know.  You will have to ask him.  I really don’t know.  He went to bed before me.
Q  Could he have told the CID that he went to bed at 10:30?
A  Yes, he could have, yes.
Q  Could he have told the CID that he heard this running and footsteps between seven and nine-thirty that evening?
A  As I remember, he did say that.  As I remember, I think he did say that.
Q  He did?
A  And then he said--I say, well--I probably don’t remember what I did say--anyway I told him that was impossible, because he didn’t go to bed until ten, and it was around ten, he says, I’m going to bed, and I said, well, I’m going to watch the weather and the news and I’ll be to bed.

CPT SOMERS:  Thank you; excuse me for just a moment.  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have no further questions at this time.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Casper, this is Colonel Rock, the investigating officer again.  Was your win-dow open that evening?

WITNESS:  Yes, um-hum.

COL ROCK:  Approximately how wide would you say, if you can remember?

WITNESS:  Well, I would say at least six inches.

COL ROCK:  Do you recall what date it was that you had your discussion with the two CID agents?

WITNESS:  What date?


WITNESS:  Well, really I don’t know the date, but I know it was the Tuesday afternoon, sometime the day of the murder.

COL ROCK:  It was the same day then?

WITNESS:  Oh definitely, yes.  It was raining.  I remember that very vividly.

COL ROCK:  All right.  One other question here by counsel for the accused.  Just a moment.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Casper, this is Mr. Segal again.  Colonel Rock has asked you about your window being open.  Are you referring to the window in the master bedroom?
A  Yes, um-hum.
Q  And could you indicate to us where the bed in the master bedroom in--was located--in re-gard to the window that you just described?
A  Yes.  The head of the bed was--the foot of the bed was directly under the window.  I would say a foot or two feet from the wall where the window was located.  So the head of the bed was approximately six feet away from the window.

MR. SEGAL:  Fine, thank you very much, Mrs. Casper.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mrs. Casper, this is Captain Somers again.  Could you tell us, please, this window that was open, where is it in relation to the MacDonald apartment?
A  Oh.
Q  Does it face the MacDonald apartment?
A  Yes, yes, uh-huh.  But I--don’t--I don’t--well, yes, it did, yes.
Q  I see.  What was the weather outside that window?
A  As I remember when I woke up in the morning it was raining and I remember there was a light rain, as I can remember.  I am sure if it was raining hard we would have had to close the window, because the rain always blew in.

CPT SOMERS:  Thank you.  No further questions.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Casper, this is Colonel Rock again.  You are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the de-fense.  Do you understand that?

Mrs. Casper: Yes, I do.

COL ROCK:  Thank you very much.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, we would ask for an adjournment at this time for lunch and recess.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recesses until 1330.

(The hearing recessed at 1155 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing was reconvened at 1340 hours, 10 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Are we ready to proceed with the next witness, counsel?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.  Counsel for the accused calls Mrs. Bobbie Sue Evans.

(Mrs. Bobbie Sue Evans was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Evans, what is your address, please?
A  426 Champagne Street, Hamlet, North Carolina.
Q  What is your profession?
A  I’m a nurse at the Hamlet Hospital.
Q  How long have you been a nurse?
A  Approximately ten years.
Q  And how long have you been at the Hamlet Hospital?
A  Two years.
Q  Now do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  I do.
Q  And how long have you known Captain MacDonald?
A  Over a period, I guess, of about 8 or 9 months, since he’s been coming to Hamlet.
Q  How did you come to know Captain MacDonald?
A  As a floor nurse, making rounds with him in a case when he came to the hospital.
Q  And did you have any particular contacts with him, professional relationship, in terms of doctor-nurse relationship?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was that?
A  Making rounds and having to talk with him about the patient and giving medication with him.
Q  Is there any particular reason why you had--strike that.  Would you characterize your re-lationship as a close professional relationship with Dr. MacDonald?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  He cannot phrase the question that way.

MR. SEGAL:  If the government finds any harm in finding out if the relationship is a close pro-fessional one or not, it can cure that harm in cross-examination.  It seems to me that this is
--it only goes to the question of ability to observe.  The government can’t conceivably find any prejudice by the witness being able to tell whether they had a close relationship or not.  There’s no other way--

CPT SOMERS:  Ask her whether she had a close relationship.  Is this the question?

MR. SEGAL:  I did.

CPT SOMERS:  He can easily ask her what her relationship has been.  Now if the relationship and degree of relationship is that important to the defense, then it’s worth asking the ques-tions correctly.

CPT BEALE:  Objection sustained.  Rephrase the question.

Continued questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Evans, how would you characterize your working relationship with Captain MacDon-ald?
A  In a small hospital, you get to know your doctors very well, and you work rather close with them.
Q  Would you say that you worked closely with Captain MacDonald?
A  During the day--at times, yes, sir.
Q  Would you say more closely with him than with other doctors?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.

Q  Or not as close as other doctors.

CPT SOMERS:  Same basis.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.  What is your answer, Mrs. Evans?

A  Yes, I think--I have several doctors that I take under my wing and I was very fond of Dr. MacDonald as a doctor.  He seemed to have what I like in a doctor.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe Dr. MacDonald under stress and pressure?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  Let him define further the stress and pressure.  He’s asking the wit-ness to draw a conclusion.

MR. SEGAL:  I asked her whether she observed him under stress and pressure.  Those are found in Webster’s dictionary and I don’t impute any other meaning to the words than this.
They are obvious.

CPT SOMERS:  He’s asking the witness to say what’s stress and pressure.  Someone may--

MR. SEGAL:  If the government doesn’t think there’s a special pressure of being a doctor in a hospital, they can quarrel with the witness whether she ever saw him under stress and pres-sure, but I have the right to ask her this.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled, Captain Somers.

MR. SEGAL:  Mrs. Evans, did you ever have occasion to observe Dr. MacDonald under stress and pressure?
A  Well, there again, I don’t know what you want to define as stress.  We had several occa-sions--several patients which we had to work very close with and I would say that there are times that you would be under stress with them.
Q  Now, how did Dr. MacDonald react under this stress and pressures that you were aware of and observed him under in a hospital situation?
A  Very calm and very efficient.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to observe him under any situation, any particular professional pressure of any sort in the hospital?
A  Working with one particular child, yes.
Q  Would you describe for us that incident?
A  Well, this child was about nine years old and she had--really was very sick and the sur-geon that we had would not come in to see this child and when Dr. MacDonald came on duty I talked to him about the child and asked him if he would please come in and help us work with the child and see if there was something he could do.
Q  Was this an urgent situation of some sort?
A  I felt that it was.
Q  What, if anything, did Dr. MacDonald--how did Dr. MacDonald respond to the situation that you are describing?
A  Well, he took it right in control and we really did get the child under control.
Q  What was Dr. MacDonald’s general attitude toward children?
A  Well, he could manage children.

CPT SOMERS:  Excuse me.  I object, unless he shows some basis for giving this opinion.

MR. SEGAL:  I’ll withdraw the question.  Let me ask you this.  Mrs. Evans, did you have oc-casion to observe Captain MacDonald treating children under the age of 13, also in the hos-pital?
A  Yes, sir, on many occasions.  When we made rounds on pediatrics--as I say, I worked all over the hospital.
Q  And did Dr. MacDonald work on rounds which involved going to pediatric sections, seeing children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe his attitude toward children in this work with him?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How would you describe his attitude toward children?
A  Very kind.
Q  Did you ever hear or see Dr. MacDonald express violence or threaten to do bodily harm to any child?
A  Never.
Q  Do you have any children of your own?
A  I have four daughters.
Q  Did you have occasion to see Dr. MacDonald after February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could you say on how many occasions you’ve seen him?
A  Twice.
Q  Would you work with Dr. MacDonald again?
A  I certainly would.

MR. SEGAL:  Would you like to cross-examine?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mrs. Evans, what kind of a nurse are you?
A  I’m a licensed practical nurse.
Q  Is that the--distinguished from a registered nurse?
A  Yes, it definitely is.
Q  In what way?
A  We do have all the theory that the registered nurse does.  She goes to school longer than we do.
Q  When did you first meet Captain MacDonald?
A  I don’t remember the exact date, sir.  It was when he came into the hospital to cover--
Q  Do you remember what month?
A  I’m not sure about that, sir.  It was either October or November.  I’m not even sure about the month.
Q  How often was he in the hospital prior to the 17th of February?
A  Well, I came in contact with him, I believe it was the weekend before--I believe it was two weeks prior to the 15th and 16th.  We had so many doctors that come in from Fort Bragg and I’m not sure of the dates.
Q  How often did you work with Captain MacDonald at Hamlet Hospital prior to 17 February?
A  Every time he was there.
Q  And how often was that?
A  I would say 4 or 5 times that he was on call over there.
Q  What kind of a schedule did he work while he was there, that is in terms of hours, how long was he usually there?
A  Well, when they came during the week, they’re on duty from 6 until 12 midnight.  On the weekends they come in, sometimes they come in a 6 on Friday night and go through on 12 hour shifts.
Q  In other words, during the week they worked 6 hours shifts and on weekends sometimes 12.  Is that correct?
A  Sometimes.  Sometimes they will cover the whole weekend.
Q  Mrs. Evans, I understand that you actually saw Captain MacDonald working five or six times prior to the 17th.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you work with Captain MacDonald during the entire time he was in the hospital each time that he was there?
A  I was on duty, sir, and we came in contact.  I did not stay right with him all the time, no, sir.
Q  You worked with him all the time in the sense that you followed him on rounds all the time?
A  No, sir.  Some rounds.
Q  What was the longest period of time that you spent with Captain MacDonald at one time?
A  I would say the weekend of the 15th and 16th.
Q  How long did you spend with him?
A  We made the rounds--
Q  Excuse me.  Would you tell us what rounds?
A  I was covering the complete floor, sir.  At the time I was on the surgical floor.
Q  Okay.  Proceed.
A  And we had lunch, I believe, together that day.  In fact, you eat when you can, if you’re in charge of a floor, and I had to call him several times through out the day to get orders for patients on the floor.
Q  Was there ever a student nurse on that floor?
A  No, sir.
Q  How many patients were on the floor at the time?
A  We can care for 24 on the floor and at the time, I believe that we had 18 to 20 patients.
Q  Now you made reference to a child who was ill.  Apparently Captain MacDonald gave you some assistance with.  What was wrong with this child?
A  She had a ruptured appendix.
Q  What did Captain MacDonald do for her?
A  The child was dehydrated and was running a high, elevated temp and I needed someone to give me orders to start an IV on this child, and we had tried IVs previous and she had in-filtrated and I had Captain MacDonald put an intracath in for her.
Q  Would you explain that term for us?
A  Intracath is a needle that has a little plastic loop in it that you insert the needle into the vein, run the loop and bring it out and station it on the arm and it will not infiltrate; you can move the arm in any position that you want to.
Q  What do you mean “infiltrate”?
A  That is from the needle, when it goes trough the vein and the solution is infiltrating into the patient.
Q  What did Captain MacDonald do?
A  He inserted the intracath for us and ordered antibiotics for the child.
Q  Is this a fairly common medical procedure?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you know yourself that it was necessary to have the IVs?  Did you bring this to the doctor’s attention?
A  No, sir.  The IVs had been previously ordered.  We could not get the child to absorb them because she kept infiltrating, and I wanted someone to help me because she had veins that were almost impossible to get the IV started on.
Q  I see.  How often have you ever seen a doctor in a hospital threaten a child or offer vio-lence to a child?
A  Well, never.
Q  How long did it take you and Dr MacDonald, with respect to this child we’ve been discuss-ing?
A  Well, covering the child and everything, sir, I would say about an hour, hour and an a half.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  How many child patients have you seen you seen him treat?
A  Sir, I do not know exactly how many children we had on pediatrics that day.  There again, I think--would be either 5 or 7.  I can’t remember.
Q  And your answers are based on this trip through the pediatric ward, your opinion as to his attitude as to child patients, in which he saw five to seven patients?
A  That’s right, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  No further questions.

Q  Mrs. Evans, I have just one question.  Did Dr. MacDonald ever have any occasion to treat you or any member of your family?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who and how frequently?
A  Only once, sir.  My second daughter had come home from Norfolk, Virginia.  Her husband is in the Navy and I wanted her to have a physical and a pap smear.

COL ROCK:  No further questions?

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing, else.

CPT SOMERS:  Nothing by the government.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Evans, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any other per-son outside of this hearing, other than counsel for the government or counsel for the ac-cused.  I assume, counsel, you request that she be permanently excused?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, if she may be excused permanently.

COL ROCK:  You’re excused permanently.  Thank you.

MR. SEGAL:  Call Dr. Manson, please.

(Dr. Paul V. Manson was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as fol-lows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Dr. Manson, would you state your full name and home address, please?
A  Paul Velas Manson.  My address is 1025 Hancock Street in Quincy, Massachusetts.
Q  What is your profession, Dr. Manson?
A  I’m a physician.
Q  A medical doctor?
A  A surgeon.
Q  And I ask what is your education background, sir.
A  I went to undergraduate school at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois.  I was ed-ucated at--my medical training at Northwestern University Medical School.
Q  When did you complete your medical training?
A  In 1968.
Q  And thereafter, what were your activities?  In medicine.
A  I went to the Harvard Surgical Service at the Boston Clinic program and I’ve been there ever since.
Q  Does that mean you served your internship and other training there?
A  Yes.  I’m now senior assistant resident in surgery there.
Q  At Northwestern Medical School, what was your standing in your class upon graduation?
A  Fifth out of 134.
Q  Did you have occasion to come in contact with or come to know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.  We were lab partners and we know each other very well.  I would see him ap-proximately twice a week.  My wife and I and Jeff and his wife were together very much so-cially through all of medical school.
Q  Let me ask you, Dr. Manson, you say “lab partners.”  What exactly are you referring to?
What kind of laboratory?  Where is the laboratory located?
A  The laboratory is located in medical school.  Our first year we spent most of our time in the laboratory.
Q  Then do I understand that you were a classmate of Captain MacDonald’s or Captain Mac-Donald was a classmate of yours?
A  Yes.
Q  And during that period of time when you were at Northwestern Medical School with Cap-tain MacDonald, were you married during the entire period?
A  No, I was not.
Q  For what period of time were you married?
A  I was married immediately after medical school.
Q  During the three years you were at medical school, did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald socially, though?
A  Yes.  We saw each other, I would say, at least twice a week socially, in addition to the time that we spent together in the laboratory.
Q  How often did you see Captain MacDonald in the laboratory or in any other place in medi-cal school?
A  Oh, I would estimate the first two years, about 4 to 6 hours a day.
Q  After you went to the Harvard Clinic in Boston, have you had any contact with Captain MacDonald since that time?
A  Yes, we went down to New York on two occasions in August, and in June of my internship year, where we spent a few days with Captain MacDonald and his family and he came up to Boston and visited with us, I think it was in February of my internship year, and visited with us for a few days.
Q  Excuse me.  You say “we” visited Captain MacDonald.  Who are you referring to?
A  My wife and myself.
Q  Now did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on or after February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes.  I saw him in Womack Army Hospital on Friday, I believe it was, the 20th, after my wife and I heard of the incident and had come down.
Q  And for how long did you see--or how long were you with Captain MacDonald on February the 20th?
A  We were there for most of the afternoon, Friday afternoon, Friday evening, and for a cou-ple hours on Saturday morning.
Q  And how long a period of time would you say that was, altogether, that you were with Captain MacDonald on the 20th and 21st?
A  Six to eight hours.
Q  Was there anyone else other than you and your wife, who were there with Captain Mac-Donald for any length of time?
A  Yes, Dr. McGann.
Q  Is Dr. McGann here today at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe any injuries on or about Captain MacDonald’s head?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Would you describe to Colonel Rock, the investigating officer, what injuries you saw on his head, where they were located, please?
A  He had a large contusion on his forehead, slightly to the left of center, and he had another smaller contusion in the interior portion of his temple region on the right.
Q  In regard to the second of those, which you described on the interior portion of the right, would you point your finger as to where that would be?
A  It would be about right in here.  Just immediately behind the hairline.
Q  Was that injury in any way obscured by anything at the time you saw it?
A  It was just hard to see because of the hairline.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe any body injuries on Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.  He had a very large hematoma of his left eye and he had a puncture wound in the lower portion of his right chest anteriorly, and he had some scratches on his abdomen and another puncture wound, near his--umbilicus on his abdomen.
Q  Of all those injuries, which was the more serious injury, taken by itself?
A  It most certainly would have been the puncture wound in his--lower portion of his right chest.
Q  Was this injury, in your judgment, a life-threatening injury?
A  Because of the possibility of a tension pneumothorax laceration of a major blood vessel or a laceration of the liver.
Q  Assuming that a trained medical person, a doctor, was to inflict the wound in that location you’ve just described, could he know the medical consequences of such injury, if he did inflict it upon himself?
A  No.
Q  Why would he not be able to anticipate the medical consequences of that injury?
A  It’s just impossible to predict whether or not one will get a tension pneumothorax from a penetrating wound in the chest.  It is impossible to predict where the liver is in relation to any wound in the area and likewise where any of the great veins that run in that area.
Q  You say the tension pneumothorax.  How is it distinguished from any other type of thorac-ic injury?  Is there a pneumothorax as opposed to a tension pneumothorax?
A  Yes, there is.
Q  Describe what they are, please?
A  Pneumothorax occurs when there is a vent in the lung and air escapes into the--normally a potential space, the thoracic cavity.  Pneumothorax becomes a tension pneumothorax when a one-way valve effect occurs at the point in which the air is leaking from the lung, so that the air gets outside of the lung and cannot return to the main breathing passages, to es-cape.  Pressure builds up inside the chest to the point where circulatory, respiratory embar-rassment occurs.
Q  What does respiratory embarrassment mean, doctor?
A  It means that the patient is not able to breathe and circulatory embarrassment, the heart stops beating because the pressure inside the chest will not let the heart fill with blood.
Q  How rapidly does the condition become dangerous from the development of a tension pneumothorax?
A  If a tension pneumothorax occurs, it is dangerous within 3 to 5 minutes.
Q  Now over how long a period of time did you know Mrs. MacDonald, Colette MacDonald?
A  I knew her almost as long as I knew Jeff.  Shortly after I knew Captain MacDonald in medi-cal school, he had us over for dinner.
Q  Over how many years did that span?
A  Six years.
Q  Did you have occasion to meet with Captain MacDonald and his wife at the same time on a number of occasions?
A  Many, many occasions.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to observe the relationship between Captain MacDonald and his wife and his children?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward to his wife, Colette?
A  He always demonstrated to me a great deal of love and respect that he had for her.
Q  Did you ever hear or see him threaten violence or actually commit violence upon her?
A  No.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s attitude towards his children?
A  He was a very wonderful father.  He spent a lot of time with his children, something which is difficult to do in medical school, and he always treated them with a great deal of love, which was obvious to anyone around him.  He was what I considered to be an ideal father.
Q  Did he ever commit any violence or threaten any physical violence to his children?
A  No.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward Captain MacDonald?
A  It was identical to his, toward her.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward her children?
A  Similar to her husband.
Q  Did Mrs. MacDonald ever threaten violence or threaten to commit violent act or actually commit violence on her husband?
A  No, never.
Q  Did Mrs. MacDonald ever threaten violence or commit violence against her children?
A  Never.
Q  How recent, before February 17th, 1970, did you have any contact with either Captain MacDonald or Mrs. MacDonald?
A  We had exchanged letters, telephone calls on a number of occasions throughout the years and approximately a week before February 17th, we had called and talked to them--we talked to all of his family.  My wife and I had called.
Q  Did you speak to Captain MacDonald at that time?
A  Yes, we spoke to them both and the children.
Q  How would you characterize Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude or feelings at that time as she ex-pressed them to you?
A  I think this was a particularly enjoyable time for them.  He had a chance to spend a lot of time with the family, which was something he had not done, which he was unable to do much being an intern and being away every other night.  Mrs. MacDonald was, to me, enjoying this a great deal and she was particularly proud of the fact that she had gone back to school.
Q  One question further, please.  How would you rate Dr. MacDonald as to his qualities as a physician?
A  I think he’s an outstanding doctor.
Q  Would you work with him if you had a chance to do so now?
A  Yes.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Dr. Manson, are you certified by the National Board of Surgeons?
A  No, I’m not.
Q  How far are you along in your surgical training?
A  Senior Assistant Resident.
Q  How far are you short of being certified?
A  Two years.
Q  Do you consider yourself a friend of Captain MacDonald’s?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  How close a friendship do you have with him?  Can you answer that question?
A  I would say it’s close.
Q  Did you happen to see CPT MacDonald on the 17th of February 1970?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Did you see the injuries that he sustained on the day that he sustained them?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Now you’ve described an injury to the right side of the head.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know how he sustained that injury?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you know when?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Can you describe that injury in detail to us?  For instance, was the skin broken?
A  The skin was not broken.  It was a contusion with only a small amount of hemorrhage and edema, but the hemorrhage was not significant.  There was mostly edema.
Q  Did you probe this puncture in the lower right chest area?
A  No, sir.
Q  Then how do you know that it was the most dangerous of the injuries?
A  It was the one which was responsible for his hemo-pneumothorax.
Q  How do you know that?
A  Because of the treatment which had been instituted.  
Q  Well, how do you know what the treatment was?
A  He had a--when I saw him in the hospital, he had a chest tube hooked up to suction, drainage.
Q  You were not the treating physician for Dr. MacDonald, were you?
A  No, sir.
Q  In fact, your capacity in the hospital was not that of a professional, was it?
A  No, sir.
Q  At Womack, you were there as a friend, were you not?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You spoke about a tension pneumothorax.  And you have differentiated this from an ordi-nary pneumothorax.  What did you call that ordinary pneumothorax?
A  It’s a pneumothorax.  A pneumo--Captain MacDonald actually had a hemo-pneumothorax, which means there was both blood and air in the potential space that exists between the pleural--between the pleural.  A pneumothorax is simply air.  A tension pneumothorax can oc-cur with either.
Q  But your description of it as a hemo-pneumothorax is not based on your observation but on something you were told, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who told you that?
A  Captain MacDonald.
Q  Have you ever seen a tension pneumothorax?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How many?
A  I would imagine, anywhere from a dozen to two dozen, somewhere in there.
Q  Tension pneumothorax?
A  That’s tension pneumothorax; pneumothorax is a common thing.
Q  How many common pneumothorax have you seen?
A  A few hundred.
Q  In other words, you’ve seen hundreds of pneumothorax?
A  Yes.
Q  And out of these, approximately two dozen were tension pneumothorax?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you know what percentage of pneumothorax are, in fact, tension pneumothorax?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, if he knows--

MR. SEGAL:  I don’t know what unit he’s talking about on which he’s going to base his per-centage.  Is it Boston to be equated, the State of Massachusetts, North Carolina?

CPT BEALE:  Give a little bit more clarity to your question, Captain Somers.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  What percentage of the normal pneumothorax you’ve seen have been tension pneumotho-rax?
A  From my experience, you could compare the numbers I’ve just told you.
Q  Then I gather that a tension pneumothorax is the more serious sort of thing, is that cor-rect?  Than a regular pneumothorax?
A  Yes.
Q  And it is more likely to be hospitalized with this, is it not?
A  I would say that you have to hospitalize a pneumothorax.  Even a simple pneumothorax.  A tension pneumothorax needs immediate hospitalization and treatment.
Q  How would you differentiate between a tension pneumothorax and a normal pneumothorax, if you found this in a patient?  What indications would you have that you’re not dealing with a common pneumothorax?
A  His blood pressure would be decreasing, the patient is getting cyanotic.
Q  Excuse me.  If you will, define that term and any other technical ones you’re going to be using.
A  He suffers from an acute, intense lack of oxygen, partly because of respiratory embarrass-ment, because of circulatory embarrassment.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, the witness has covered this area sufficiently for Colonel Rock.
He’d like you to move on to another area, unless you have something specific to be brought out here.

Q  Is shock a normal composite of a pneumothorax?
A  Yes, it can be a composite of a pneumothorax.
Q  Is it more likely with a tension--
A  It’s invariably present with a tension pneumothorax.
Q  What is the difference, in terms of the causation, between a tension pneumothorax and a common pneumothorax?
A  They can occur with the same cause and it’s not possible to predict when a penetrating wound in the chest will cause one or another.
Q  Is there any way that might be more likely to cause them?  For instance, would a quick thrust to the chest wall be more likely to cause one than a slow penetration?
A  I don’t think this would have anything to do with it.  It would depend on the amount of damage to the underlying wall.
Q  The less damage, the less likely to be a tension pneumothorax?
A  Not necessarily true at all.
Q  Well, then, what do you mean by the qualification you just made about the damage?
A  Well, as I said, I don’t think it’s possible to predict when you would not get a tension pneumothorax from a penetrating thoracic injury.  I think the majority of those that I have seen have been in the more simple wounds of the thoracic cavity.

COL ROCK:  Counsel, I fail to get the point of this inquiry at the present time.  I think we’ve had plenty of comment on this by Dr. Manson and other physicians who have been here.  Is there some particular point that you’re driving at?

CPT SOMERS:  I’m through, sir.  Not with my questions, but with that subject.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  I gather, Dr. Manson, that you’ve had an opportunity to see Captain MacDonald around his family and children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe for us what sort of disciplinarian he is?
A  His children were always cooperative and obedient.  I think unusually so.  
Q  Did you ever have an opportunity to see CPT MacDonald discipline his children?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  How does he go about that?
A  At the time I saw him, he would take the child or children aside and talk with them.
Q  Did you ever see Colette MacDonald discipline her children?
A  Yes.  Yes, I did.
Q  And how did she go about it?
A  In the same manner.
Q  Now you say that Colette MacDonald never threatened her children with--threatened them or offered to do violence to them.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now I presume by that you mean never in your presence?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is it fair to say then that you are a close friend with the MacDonald family and you con-sider them to be an ideal family.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long have you been associated with Captain MacDonald in the actual practice of medicine, as opposed to medical school?
A  Since 1968.
Q  In other words, you were together after medical school?
A  We spent some time together on occasions.
Q  Where were you practicing medicine together?
A  We weren’t practicing medicine together.
Q  Have you actually seen him practice medicine, as opposed to being in medical school?
A  What do you mean practicing medicine?
Q  I mean seeing patients, treating patients in the normal day-to-day practice of medicine.
A  I have had many occasions to see him do this during medical school.  During the last two years when--you are pretty much an intern.
Q  Have you had an opportunity to see him do this since medical school?
A  I’ve had on the occasion when I went to see him at Columbia.
Q  Under what circumstances did this occur?
A  I was curious to see the facilities Columbia had, so I went with him one day to look around, made rounds with him and saw him with his patients.
Q  Since medical school, the extent of your observation of Captain MacDonald’s practice in medicine was limited to one day.  Is that correct?

A  Physically, yes.
Q  In your opinion of him, doctor, is that based on what you saw, as a doctor, on what you saw in medical school?

MR. SEGAL:  The witness never said that.  That’s objected to.

CPT SOMERS:  Is that correct or not?

MR. SEGAL:  It’s a misstatement of what the witness said.  It’s unfair characterization.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.  Rephrase your question.

Q  Your opinion of Captain MacDonald, in the practice of medicine, is based on your obser-vation of him in medical school and this one day.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have an occasion to discuss with Captain MacDonald his injuries?
A  Yes, I did.  I discussed them with him, on the Friday--when we first saw him at Womack Army Hospital.
Q  Did he describe them to you or not?
A  What do you mean “describe them”?
Q  The injuries.
A  They were readily apparent.
Q  But did Captain MacDonald describe them to you?
A  We didn’t talk much about them.
Q  Did you conduct an actual examination of Captain MacDonald?
A  No, I didn’t.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald describe his assailants to you?
A  In no more detail than what was in the papers about the time.
Q  Have you had occasion to read about this incident in the newspapers?
A  Yes, I’ve read about what little is published in Boston in the papers and what clippings were obtained from the New York papers.
Q  In other words, you’ve made an effort to obtain clippings on the subject?
A  Yes.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  Just a couple of others, if I may, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Dr. Manson, on concluding medical school, you described having visited Captain MacDonald and he visited you.  On what occasion did you have occasions to talk about the practice of medicine, studies of medicine?
A  Surely, we always discussed interesting things that we’d seen and difficult problems.  We used to express opinions to each other regarding things that we--patients that we’d taken care of.
Q  Did you or did you not consider the opinions expressed to you on the subject of medicine in making judgment as to what kind of physician you think Captain MacDonald is?
A  Would you repeat the question?
Q  Did or did not you include in your opinion, making up your opinion of Dr. MacDonald, the things he said to you in your discussions about medicine?
A  Surely.
Q  Would you perhaps help me by telling me a little bit more about what the last two years of medical school involved, as far as actual patient treatment at Northwestern?
A  The last two years were spent primarily inpatient treatment.  In the junior year there’s a medical rotation which occupies one-third of the year in surgery, obstetrics and GYN, and rotation--this is all patient work, and this rotation is--the same is true for the senior year.
Q  And did you have contact with Captain MacDonald during those two years while you were in this clinical treatment type of assignment in the medical school?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How often did you see him at those times?
A  On the rotations where we had contact, nearly as much as I’d seen him the first year in medical school.  In some locations we were not together as much.
Q  Did you ever see signs on the MacDonald children that they had apparently been beaten or physically mishandled in any way?

CPT SOMERS:  Object to that.

MR. SEGAL:  The government has suggested that the witness wasn’t present all the time and therefore wouldn’t know whether the children had been struck by the accused or his wife in his absence.  There is, however, indicia to such activity, including the signs, particularly which any medical person might observe.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled, Captain Somers.  Answer the question, doctor.

A  I never saw such signs.
Q  Did you have an opportunity to observe Dr. MacDonald/Captain MacDonald under pressure or emotional stress?
A  During exams or--
Q  Well, you tell us on what occasion you’ve seen him, if you recall, in which he may have been under pressure or stress of any sort, professionally or academically.

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  That’s calling for a conclusion outside the witness’s exper-tise and it also is well outside the scope of any cross or direct.

MR. SEGAL:  It is outside the scope of cross and I’ll ask leave to ask this question.  I’ll admit that as far as it being beyond his expertise, you don’t have to be a psychiatrist to know when a person is working under stress and pressure at times and to be able to express a view.  The doctor’s view, in my judgment is probably worth a little bit more, perhaps, that some laymen and others--

CPT SOMERS:  It’s all supposition.

CPT BEALE:  Objection overruled.  What is your answer, Dr. Manson?

A  Would you repeat the question?  I lost it somewhere.
Q  Have you had occasion, during the period of time you’ve known Captain MacDonald, to see him under pressure or stress?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What types of pressure or strain did you have occasion to observe him under?
A  I would say this would be mainly related to those occurring in medical school, examinations and so on.  Captain MacDonald is not the type of person to show he’s being stressed.
Q  What did you conclude, if anything, about Captain MacDonald’s emotional stability?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  Based on what?

MR. SEGAL:  Based upon his observations of Captain MacDonald on the occasions he’s already indicated.

CPT BEALE:  Objection overruled.

Q  Please answer, Dr. Manson.
A  He’s an extremely reliable, stable person.
Q  Because you are a good friend of Captain MacDonald’s, would that cause you to come here and under oath testify to a lie as to any material fact?
A  No, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Doctor, do you think it is possible that because you are a good friend of CPT MacDonald’s, it may subconsciously color your opinion as to anything you may testify to such as his char-acter or his family?
A  I don’t believe so.
Q  Are you saying that that’s impossible?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I see.  From this, doctor, did you consider Captain MacDonald to be emotionally expressive or did you find him to be the kind of man who is quiet and withdrawn, in fact?
A  What do you mean, emotionally expressive?
Q  Did he readily express his emotions?
A  He was a very friendly person.
Q  Well, let’s see beyond that.  In these situations of stress you described, I gather you’re saying that he’s not emotional; he doesn’t disclose signs of emotions as a result of these stressful situations.  Is that what you said?
A  No.  Could you redirect your question?
Q  All right.  I’ll try.  You were asked a question as to Captain MacDonald’s stability, particu-larly under emotional stress or stressful situations.  And you said that he doesn’t show his emotions.
A  In situations like that, I meant to say that he doesn’t show any anxiety.  In other words, someone under stress--he’s acting under stress, he does not seem to show anxiety, no.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

Questions by COL ROCK:
Q  Doctor Manson, you have indicated that you saw a small contusion at the hairline.  How did you happen to observe that?  Were you examining his head or what?  
A  I was standing right next to him and he was complaining of a headache and I was--you know--just searching, just curiously, for why he would have such a headache.
Q  Now you have stated, I gather, if I may summarize that, he had what would be charac-terized as, potentially, rather, a serious wound in his chest.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, any puncture wound of the chest is potentially lethal.
Q  Right.  And I believe you also stated that a person would have no way, a medical doctor would have no way of knowing what the outcome would be in something of this severity.  Is that correct?
A  No, sir.
Q  Then would it be logical in your mind, that someone who was--be logical for a doctor who wanted to commit suicide to stab himself in such a location, with the thought that maybe this would take his life?
A  Would you repeat the question, sir?
Q  Considering the severity of the wound and not knowing what the potential would be with such a wound, would it be possible that someone who wanted to commit suicide would stab himself in that position?
A  I would imagine it may occur.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  In regard to that last question by Colonel Rock, in your judgment, would you as a physician, if you wanted to inflict death upon yourself, and you work in a hospital with a lot of facilities available, would you chose to do so, as the most effective and expeditious man-ner, of stabbing yourself in the lung about the place where Captain MacDonald was so in-jured?

A  If I wanted to take my own life, I think I would probably chose a different location, per-haps one directly over the heart.
Q  Why would that be so?
A  Its consequences would be--you know--absolute.  If you were really intent on taking your life, it would provide a very rapid means.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further.

CPT SOMERS:  Nothing further.

COL ROCK:  Doctor, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any other person, other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand that, sir?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are excused.

MR. SEGAL:  May Dr. Manson be permanently excused, Colonel, please.

COL ROCK:  Yes.  Thank you very much, doctor.

MR. SEGAL:  Would you next call Dr. McGann, please.

(Dr. Robert C. McGann was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Dr. McGann, would you give your full name and your home address, please?
A  Robert Charles McGann, 9 Hawthorne Street, Boston, Massachusetts.
Q  What is your profession?
A  Physician.
Q  Medical doctor?
A  Medical doctor.
Q  And what are your educational qualifications?
A  I received my bachelor of medical science at Northwestern, undergrad, and with the Hon-ors Medical Program at Northwestern University, graduating in 1968.
Q  Where did you stand in your class?
A  I was first in a class of 134.
Q  Did you know Captain Jeffrey MacDonald at that time?
A  I did.
Q  In what connection did you know Captain MacDonald?
A  We met my freshman year at medical school because we were lab partners and then I knew him, we began to see each other socially.
Q  Let me interrupt.  I want to finish one other area before you go off into that.  Do I under-stand from your answer that Captain MacDonald was a classmate of yours at medical school?
A  Correct.
Q  And you graduated from Northwestern medical school.  Where did you go thereafter for your medical training?  And in what field?
A  I’ve been at the Massachusetts General Hospital for three years, surgery.
Q  Is Massachusetts General Hospital a specialized hospital in way or have special training to offer in the surgical field of any sort?
A  Well, it’s widely considered to be the best general hospital in the country.
Q  What is your present standing in the hospital?  Are you a resident in surgery?
A  I’m the resident surgeon.
Q  Now if we could go back to this point of your knowledge of Captain MacDonald.  You say you knew him in medical school.  What were your contacts with him in school?
A  Well, daily contact for three years in medical school, you know, more or less on the job.
We used to play handball almost daily.  My sophomore year of medical school, we saw each other socially, probably about once a week, when I use to babysit for his family about once month, and they had me over for dinner because I was unmarried.
Q  Do I gather from your answer that you also knew Mrs. MacDonald, Colette MacDonald?
A  Extremely well.
Q  Did you also know the MacDonald children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How often would you say that you babysat for the MacDonald children?
A  I would say about 20 times in four years.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife, Colette, during the time that you knew them?
A  Well, in honesty, I thought it was an ideal marriage.
Q  Are you married yourself?
A  No, I’m not.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s attitude towards his children?
A  He was an extremely devoted father and they were extremely devoted to him.  He spent a lot with them, he played with them, etc., which--you know, the amount of hours you work in medical school, I know some of my other married friends didn’t do this.  You could tell the feeling between he and the children.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald inflict any physical violence upon his children or threaten to do that to his children?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward her husband?
A  Well, as I say, they were just--I thought they were very happily married.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward the MacDonald children?
A  A very devoted mother.
Q  Did you ever see her threaten or actually inflict any physical violence upon her children?
A  No, I did not.
Q  How would you characterize the children in terms of their behavior?
A  Well, Kimmie is the one I knew best, because Kristen was born--well, by the time I grad-uated from medical school, she was only a year old, so I knew her very little, other than feeding her with a bottle when I babysat.  But Kim, Kimberly, I knew up to about age 5 and she was a very well-behaved child, very precocious in the sense that, you know, she was a very intelligent child.
Q  How close to February 17th, 1970, had you had any contact with either Captain MacDon-ald or Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Well, I had been considering entering the Army to fulfill my military obligation and about a month before this happened, I called Jeff and asked him if could, you know, send me a letter with some considerations, the various considerations on entering the Army at this stage, which I didn’t have to do because I’m not committed until I finish training.  He wrote me back about an 8-page letter.
Q  Excuse me.  Could you just keep your voice a little louder, Dr. McGann, so our stenograph-er can hear you more clearly?
A  He answered me with this 8-page letter, the first two pages of which went into great length describing how happy that he and his family were, then the last 6 pages telling me the various considerations involved in making the step of entering the Army at this time.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his Army service, as a doctor?
A  It was more or less “gung-ho.”  He was--you know, he really liked it.  But this was typical of his attitude in anything else.
Q  In what sense do you speak?
A  Anything he did.
Q  What way do you mean it was typical of anything he did?
A  Well, anything he did, he--he just didn’t do anything halfway.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe Captain MacDonald in the years you’ve known him, un-der emotional stress or pressure of any sort, medically or--
A  Once when we were in a tight situation, we were more or less heckled on the street once, so I’ve seen him under several periods of stress.  
Q  And how would you characterize his response to pressure or emotional stress?
A  Well, as far as his medical confidence goes under periods of stress, he has one of the coolest heads I’ve ever come in contact with.
Q  How was his response to this unexplained street situation that you’ve described?
A  Sure glad he was with me, because in that type of spot, I don’t respond very coolly under street confrontations, so to speak.
Q  Did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on or shortly after February 17th, 1970?
A  I did.
Q  When did you see him?
A  I saw him first in the evening, about 8 p.m.  That would be February 19th.
Q  And where did you see Captain MacDonald?
A  In his room at Womack Army Hospital.
Q  And for how long did you see him on that date?
A  Approximately two hours.
Q  And did you see him on any subsequent days?
A  I spent about 6 hours with him on Friday and two hours Saturday morning before the fu-neral services.
Q  Was anyone else there for that length of time besides yourself and Captain MacDonald?
A  Thursday night there was Bob; Friday there was Dr. Manson and his wife were there that afternoon and five or six of his close friends.  Then there was his sister.  Dudley Warrington
1 from San Francisco, etc., was there.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe the injuries on or about Dr. MacDonald’s head?
A  Yes.
Q  What injuries did you observe and would you describe them for the investigating officer?
A  Well, the first thing that was immediately apparent was that he had a chest tube coming out of his right anterior chest--
Q  Excuse me.  I want to come to that if you will, but would you first direct your attention to any injuries on or about the head area.
A  He had a large contusion over his left mid-forehead area and a smaller one over his right temple, frontal temple area.
Q  With regard to the second injury, the right frontal temple area, would that in any way--was it in any way obscured or anything?
A  It was partially obscured by the hairline.
Q  Now did you observe any other injuries on the body of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.  There  were several--what I call superficial lacerations to his left upper quad-rant of his abdomen; there were several puncture wounds in the left upper quadrant of his abdomen and there was a penetrating chest wound in his right lower rib cage, just lateral to the lower edge of his stomach.
Q  Did you consider any of these injuries, based upon the observations you were able to make, to be life-threatening?
A  The more serious one--any of the abdominal would/could have been life-threatening, de-pending upon subsequent treatment, but the more serious one was this--beside possible complications--was this penetrating wound in his right anterior chest.
Q  And what caused you to believe that was the most serious wound that you observed?
A  Well, there’s lethal proximal complications of a penetrating chest wound in that area.
Q  Would you describe what those complications are?  Or could be?
A  Well, the right middle lobe of the lung is directly behind this, so any penetrating chest wound in that area, inevitably will puncture the lung and the complications of this is a pneu-mothorax and/or a hemo-pneumothorax and could well have been a tension pneumothorax, which can be rapidly fatal in several minutes.
Q  Were there any other reasons that caused you to believe that was the more serious or life-threatening injury?
A  Well, the great vessels of the heart lie right behind the sternum and to the left of the sternum and the inferior vena cava, which is the main vein to the lower half of the body, runs over this penetrating chest wound he had, so depending how deep the knife went in, he could have easily--it could have easily been severed, which would have been rapidly fatal.
Q  When you say rapidly fatal, how rapidly are you saying?
A  Two or three minutes.
Q  Assuming a doctor--
A  Also the liver lies immediately right in this area, too, and this is a potentially a fatal region, too.
Q  Assuming that a doctor wanted to inflict an injury to himself that would appear serious but not--would not be fatal, and assuming that he inflicted the injury on the chest as you de-scribed Captain MacDonald’s wounds, could he possibly anticipate the medical consequences of inflicting such an injury on himself?
A  You’re asking me if he wanted to inflict a voluntary injury?
Q  Yes, and would he be able to anticipate the medical consequences of doing it to himself?
A  Certainly not.
Q  Would he be able to tell, in inserting a knife in that section, whether he would possibly cut the main artery you’re talking about?
A  Absolutely not.  The inferior vena cava--the right area of the heart sits in--occupies--the whole area behind the sternum and comes out right over the sternum in that area.
Q  Now if a doctor wanted to inflict a fatal injury upon himself by stabbing, which he chose the area apparently inflicted by Captain MacDonald, as opposed to some other area of the body, if he wanted to be a hundred percent sure it was fatal?
A  If I wanted to be a hundred percent sure with a knife, I’d just go for the heart, because he’s going for a pretty high risk area.
Q  Have you had any other communications in the few months before February 1970, with Captain MacDonald and his family, other than the letter you referred to?
A  Well, subsequent to that letter, I had called Captain MacDonald at least three times.  As a matter of fact, about two Sundays before this happened, I called him at his home and he was away at some hospital moonlighting and I talked to his wife for about 20 to 30 minutes.
Q  And how would you characterize her attitude at that time in terms of whether she was--seemed to be happy or unhappy, her married life and family life generally?
A  They were always happy in their married life.  In medical school they had financial hard-ships and he simply just had to have, you know, outside jobs, etc., and to put himself through medical school.  And, you know, when I saw her in--that’s been about 8 months be-fore this happened and then over the phone, she just kept, you know, she was all excited about how this is the first time they had ever been financially on solid ground and Jeff was able to spend a lot of time at home with the family, playing with the children, and she told me about the horse he had given them.  You know, this was more or less the happiest time of their marriage.
Q  How would you rate Dr. MacDonald as to his qualities as a physician?
A  Outstanding.  Especially under--what really separates the men from the boys, as far as doctors are concerned, is how you react under an emergency situation and I can honestly say I don’t know of anybody who acts any better.
Q  Would you want to work with him in the future?
A  I certainly would.  Except he’s going into orthopedics.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further at this time.

COL ROCK:  Perhaps prior to beginning cross-examination, we might take our break.  The hearing will recess for 15 minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1455 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 1510 hours, 10 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing is now open.  All parties who were present at the recess are cur-rently in the hearing room.  I remind you, doctor, that you’re under oath.  Please proceed.  I believe you have turned this witness over to counsel for the government for cross-examina-tion?  

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Dr. McGann, are you certified by the American Board of Surgeons?
A  No.
Q  How much do you lack being certified?
A  Two years.
Q  Now I understand you were first in your class in medical school, is that right?
A  That is correct.
Q  What was the standing of Captain MacDonald?
A  I don’t know exactly, but I know he made Alpha-Beta-Alpha, which means it’s like being Phi-Beta-Kappa in college.  It’s a medical honorary fraternity for the top students in the class, not only grade-wise, but evaluation of your so-called moral conduct observed by your professors during medical school.  
Q  What percentage of the class is included?
A  Less than ten percent.  Probably about 7 percent of the class.
Q  And you say this is based on grades and--
A  It’s based mostly on grades, but you have to--a letter is sent to all faculty members and they have to write a letter back evaluating you.  I happen to know, since I was first in the class, I was in charge of screening the others and several people were rejected because of morals--you know, they didn’t think they were good physicians.
Q  You described the marriage of Captain MacDonald as being an ideal marriage, in your opin-ion, is that right?
A  That is correct.
Q  Now, with respect to discipline of the children, how did Captain MacDonald go about disci-plining the children?
A  Well, I would just say he disciplined them appropriately.  They were well-behaved children.
Now, obviously, if his daughter came up and you know, threw a jar of jelly to the floor, he’d have words with her, but they were appropriately disciplined.  Very appropriately.  They were well-behaved children, so discipline was not a problem.  What I am trying to say is that he would never discipline them except when it was necessary to do so.

COL ROCK:  Would you please speak louder.

Q  Now with respect to Mrs. MacDonald, how did she discipline the children?
A  Again, all I can say is I always considered her--very appropriate discipline.  She was a very good mother.  She--I thought she had unusual insight in child psychology, if you will.
Q  Did they ever raise their voices at each other?
A  No, they did not.  Not in my presence.
Q  What is your attitude toward the Army, doctor?
A  I’m right now--I’ll be going in after I’m fully trained, in another two years.
Q  Do you consider yourself “gung-ho”?

MR. SEGAL:  Now that’s objected to.

CPT SOMERS:  It’s his term.

A  Let me answer the question.

CPT BEALE:  Just a minute, doctor.  Captain Somers, I’m sorry, he cannot answer the ques-tion.  The objection is sustained.  Doctor, do you have something that you’d like to explain?

A  No, well, I was considering volunteering for the Army this July, if that will answer your question.
Q  Now let’s talk a little bit about this street confrontation.  Would you describe it for us?
A  Well, Dr. MacDonald and I and his wife and my date were out on the street one night, and--
Q  Where was this, doctor?
A  In Chicago.  And you know, a--whatever you want to call him--a toughie or whatever you want to call it, came up and started giving us a hard time about where we had parked our car.  We just more or less tried to discuss it and he broke out a tire iron and came at us.  And MacDonald handled the situation pretty well.
Q  How did he handle it?  What did he do?
A  Well, I was--I just stepped back and he took off his coat and wrapped it around his arm and disarmed the guy.
Q  How?
A  The guy took one swing and missed and he overpowered him.
Q  How?
A  You want me to explain blow by blow?
Q  I do, yes.

MR. SEGAL:  I object.

CPT SOMERS:  This subject as to the reaction of Captain MacDonald under a stressful situa-tion was raised by the defense.  Just exactly what he did in this reaction, I think is relevant.

COL ROCK:  I fail to see any real reason for this line of questioning, counsel.  Please move on to another line of questioning.

Q  You saw Captain MacDonald on the 19th of February?
A  That is correct.
Q  Did you see him on the 17th of February?
A  I did not.
Q  And were you a treating physician?
A  Was I a treating physician?  How do you mean a treating physician?
Q  For Captain MacDonald?
A  A treating physician--I’m not sure I know what that term means.
Q  Were you treating him medically?
A  I was not.
Q  You’ve described some injuries which he had apparently sustained.
A  That’s correct.
Q  Would you indicate for us, please, by showing us on your own body, where you saw the injury of the right lower chest area?
A  Right there.  Just lateral to the lower edge of the sternum, just on the right anterior chest.
Q  Where was this chest tube?
A  It was a right interior chest tube in the second intercostal space.  In the same particular line.
Q  I see.  Thank you very much.  Will you show us that, please?
A  It’s right here.  A standard place for an interior chest tube.
Q  How deep was the right lower chest wound, do you know?
A  It’s impossible to answer that question.
Q  How deep are the liver and this vena cava?
A  Vena cava.
Q  I’m sorry.  Vena cava.
A  How deep are they?
Q  In the average man?
A  The liver lies immediately behind the lower rib cage.  As soon as you go through the rib cage, you’re in the liver in that area, if they’re down that low.  Different people have varying positions of the liver, depending on where the diaphragm is.  The vena cava is in the right quarter of the heart, the vena cava is located posteriorly to the right corner of the heart; comes out right behind the sternum, which is the breastbone, right there.  And it varies in different people as to how far laterally it goes.
Q  Is there any way for a physician to discover by sounding or any other method just what the approximate location of his own organs is?
A  No, not with certainty.
Q  Is there any way for him to find out approximately?
A  Well, going to medical school, you know where they are approximately.
Q  I’m still not sure--in terms of inches, can you estimate in terms of inches, how deep the vena cava usually is?
A  In terms of inches?
Q  Use any measure you like.
A  At that particular level, I’d say four centimeters roughly.  But the inferior vena cava pours into the right atrium, which is a laterally lines structure there at that area and the right atri-um is pressed right against the sternum, so it’s not that far.
Q  You’ve described an injury on the right front of the head, is that correct?
A  A contusion to his right frontal temple area.  That is correct.
Q  What’s your description of that injury?  Did it break the skin?
A  It was broken, an abrasion and a contusion.  It was slightly abraded--in the sense of--well, you know what’s meant by an abrasion, do you not?
Q  I do, but if you’d like to explain it, feel free.
A  Well, if you know, I don’t need--an abrasion is more or less where the skin has been scraped and a contusion is the result of a bump type injury.
Q  Now from your observation of this injury, do you know how it was inflicted?
A  No, other than it was inflicted with a blunt instrument.
Q  Do you know when it was inflicted?
A  Not with certainty, but it was--no, absolutely not.  I can’t tell you the hour it was inflict-ed.
Q  Can you tell us of your observation of the injury the day it was inflicted?
A  No.
Q  How did you happen to notice this particular injury, Doctor?
A  As a physician, you’re trained to observe and I observed it.
Q  I see.  You were not present at Womack in any medical capacity, were you, Doctor?
A  No, I was not.
Q  You consider yourself a friend of Captain MacDonald?
A  A close friend.
Q  As I understand your testimony, you spoke to Mrs. MacDonald approximately two weeks prior to the 17th?  Colette MacDonald.
A  Yes, Colette MacDonald.  That’s correct.
Q  One of the subjects of this conversation was a horse or a pony, is that correct?
A  That’s correct.
Q  Did you say how she felt about this pony or horse?
A  She thought it was great.
Q  Now you said that Captain MacDonald reacts very well under pressure and remains cool?
A  That’s correct.  In reference to medical emergencies, which is the context I was using it, that is absolutely correct.
Q  You also used it in another context, did you not?
A  That’s correct.
Q  Do you mean by this that he is undemonstrative, unaffected by emotional pressure?
A  No, I do not mean that.
Q  What do you mean?  If that’s incorrect, in what way is this statement incorrect?
A  Well, if meaning--what you’re getting at is he had no emotions towards his family, which I assume is what you’re leading at, that’s incorrect.
Q  Certainly not, no.
A  Well, I thought that was the general trend of the questioning.

MR. SEGAL:  Please keep your voice up.

A  What I meant by--in a medical situation, some people panic.  He--you know, always keeps his cool and does whatever needs to be done.
Q  How often have you observed Dr. MacDonald in the practice of medicine since medical school?
A  None.  Other than I know several nurses who worked with him at Columbia Hospital came to Mass. General Hospital and had high words of praise for him in stating his performance there.
Q  Thank you, Doctor, but the question was how long--
A  Well, that’s an indirect observation.
Q  But it’s not a direct one.  In your opinion, his professional competence is based on what you saw in medical school and anything else is discussions or things of that nature since then?
A  That’s correct.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further of Dr. McGann.  Does the investigating officer?

COL ROCK:  I only have one question, Doctor.  Have you ever seen Captain MacDonald in a frustrating situation in which he was absolutely cool or have you seen him in situations where sometimes he may blow up, as the expression goes?

WITNESS:  I have never seen him blow up.

COL ROCK:  You’ve never seen him blow up.  Have you seen him in a frustrating situation in medical school?

WITNESS:  You mean medically?

A  I don’t know what you mean by frustrating situations, as far as medical practice goes.  You mean a patient dies or something?
Q  Yes, or any other situation where people may become quite excited about the situation where they have no control over it and they just blow their cool, so to speak.  You men-tioned the word cool before, so I think you understand that one.
A  This, to me, is what makes Jeff a great physician, is that he does not blow his cool in tight situations.
Q  And so you’ve never seen him blow his cool?
A  No.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel?

(Negative response from both counsel.)

COL ROCK:  Doctor, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person other than either counsel for the government or counsel for the defense.  You are excused perma-nently.  Thank you.

MR. SEGAL:  I call CPT Thoesen, please.

(CPT Richard Thoesen was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name?
A  Richard Craig Thoesen.
Q  And your rank?
A  Captain.
Q  And your organization?
A  Head and Headquarters, 7th Specialist Forces Group (Airborne).
Q  Your branch of service?
A  Medical Service Corps.
Q  And your armed force?
A  United States Army.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  How did you come to know Captain MacDonald?
A  I came to know Captain MacDonald when he reported to the 3rd Special Forces Group.  I was his sponsor.
Q  And do you know approximately when it was that Captain MacDonald first reported to the 3rd Special Forces?
A  Approximately the latter part of August.
Q  Of the year 1969?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  In your capacity as his sponsor, what if anything, did you do?  With regard to getting to know Captain MacDonald.
A  Well, as far as a sponsor’s job is concerned, sir?
Q  Yes.
A  That would be purely to help the man in-process and be oriented to his new post, new job assignment.
Q  Did you come to know Mrs. Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I did, shortly thereafter.
Q  In what capacity or how did you come to know Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Mrs. MacDonald was moving into her house on the post.  I went over and introduced my-self as one of the men working with Jeff MacDonald.
Q  Are you married, Captain Thoesen?
A  Yes, I am.
Q  Is your wife here on post?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is your wife also in the United States Army Nurse Corps?
A  Yes, sir, she is.
Q  Were you married at the time that the MacDonalds moved onto the post here?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you and your wife have any social contact with Captain and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Yes, we did, sir.
Q  How often would you say that you had occasion to meet with the MacDonalds
A  Two times a week.
Q  Did you also see Captain MacDonald during the work day?
A  Yes, sir, every day.
Q  Were you and your wife good friends of Captain and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to be at each other’s homes?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you ever had the MacDonalds in your home?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you come to know the MacDonald children in any way?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How well would you say you knew the MacDonald children?
A  Very well, sir.
Q  Based upon your observations of the MacDonalds, what would you say Captain MacDon-ald’s attitude toward his wife, Colette, was?
A  Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife was definitely out of love.  They had rare communication.  In other words, a communication which I feel is very rare in married people today.  I had admiration--they had admiration and respect for each other and they were happy.
Q  What would you say Captain MacDonald’s attitude was toward his children?
A  Captain MacDonald understood his children, loved him children very much, had a respect for them as individuals and got along with them very well.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald threaten violence or, in fact, inflict bodily violence upon his wife, Colette?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald or hear Captain MacDonald threaten violence on ei-ther of his children?
A  No, sir.
Q  What was Colette MacDonald’s attitude toward her husband, Captain MacDonald?
A  Colette MacDonald was obviously in love with Captain MacDonald, from my viewpoint.  She responded well towards him, she understood him as a person and as a professional doctor and again, had--well, good communication with him.
Q  What was Colette MacDonald’s attitude toward her children?
A  Colette MacDonald was obviously in love with her children.  She again understood them, also, as individuals.  She was responsible towards the children and she was happy with the children.
Q  Did Colette MacDonald ever threaten violence or commit violence toward her husband, Captain MacDonald?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did she ever threaten violence or commit violence towards her children?
A  No, sir.
Q  How would you describe the behavior of the MacDonald children?
A  They were well-behaved, very self-reliant.  In other words, they were very receptive and warm towards their parents and other people.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald ever have occasion to express or demonstrate his attitude toward his service in the United States Army?
A  Yes, sir.  Many times.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his army service?
A  Captain MacDonald was very pleased and proud to perform in the United States Army.  He wanted to perform to the best of his ability and he enjoyed the people he served with and served under.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald as an officer?
A  Outstanding.
Q  Are you under orders in regard to be departing from this post sometime in the near future?
A  Yes, sir, I am.
Q  What are your orders?
A  I’m supposed to be in the Republic of Vietnam the first of November.
Q  Would you like to serve with Captain MacDonald as your group surgeon in combat area in Vietnam?
A  Definitely.
Q  Why is that, sir?
A  Because I think Captain MacDonald is one of the few doctors I have met that knows his job in the military.  In other words, he’s a professional doctor, of course, but he also is very competent as being a staff person, that has responsibility with the other troops, and he’s a person that’s easy to work with.  In other words, he’s--he knows what he’s doing.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Did you ever have an occasion to see Captain MacDonald discipline his children?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  Did you ever have an occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald that is Colette MacDonald, discipline her children?
A  No, I did not.
Q  You described the relationship between Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald how?
A  A relationship that was evolved out of loving one another; a relationship that evolved from communicating with one another freely and openly, a relationship that had respect for each other.
Q  If I was to tell you that in December of last year Captain MacDonald had sexual relations with a WAC in Texas, would that affect your opinion?

MR. SEGAL:  That is objected to, and move to strike as impertinent, insulting and offensive to this court and to the accused.  There’s no basis for such a remark.  It is an outrageous and if the government had evidence they thought they could introduce, they would if they knew how to do it.  They have no such evidence and to make such a remark in this case is only for the purpose of showing this matter in a totally tragic and unfortunate fashion.

CPT SOMERS:  The government does, in fact, have such evidence and would not have raised the point--

CPT BEALE:  Just a second, counsel.  Captain Thoesen, if you would, we’ll excuse you while we have a little discussion about this matter.

(Captain Thoesen withdrew from the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed.

(The hearing recessed at 1539 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 1548 hours, 10 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, with the exception of Captain Thompson, Assistant counsel for the government, and the witness, who has been excused.

CPT BEALE:  Let the record reflect that this matter has been considered and the ruling will be that the question that was put to the witness will be stricken from the record.  However, this in no way will preclude the question--the right of the counsel for the government to produce evidence of poor character or however he wants to characterize it at the appropriate junc-ture in these proceedings, namely; his rebuttal.  There has been many “character” witnesses who have testified and this question obviously was not put to any of those.  It will not be permitted to be put to this particular witness at this time.

CPT SOMERS:  May I ask, sir, is it that none of the character witnesses for the defense may be asked this question?

COL ROCK:  That’s correct.  

MR. SEGAL:  I think that’s anticipatory, sir.  I think--

CPT BEALE:  To answer the question, Mr. Segal, it’s to the effect that putting this type of a question to any of these character witnesses will not be permitted.

CPT SOMERS:  Very good.  I understand the ruling.

CPT BEALE:  You may recall the witness.

CPT Thoesen was recalled.

COL ROCK:  Captain Thoesen, you are reminded that you are under oath.  Proceed, counsel-or.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Captain Thoesen, has Captain MacDonald treated you in a medical capacity?
A  Yes, sir.  He scrubbed me down for a shoulder operation at a particular time.
Q  Has he treated you at any other time?
A  No, sir.
Q  Have you observed him in the performance of his medical practice in the Army?
A  The actual practice, no, sir.
Q  But you say here that’s he a good Army doctor?
A  Yes, sir.  Only from the standpoint of his reports with patients.  I can’t judge a man medi-cally; I’m not a doctor.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Captain Thoesen, if I may.  How did you come to observe Captain MacDonald on a day-to-day basis?  Where were you located in relationship to where he might be located each day?
A  We work in the same building.  Captain MacDonald was the group surgeon.  I worked with Captain MacDonald as part of the medical detachment headquarters, as a Captain under him, so we worked with each other daily.
Q  What were your specific assignments?
A  I had two assignments.  One was medical supply and the other was sanitary engineering.
Q  In the carrying out of these assignments, was it necessary for you to have contact with Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.  He would be the staff officer that would want to make sure that certain pro-grams and subjects for training were put across to the medical personnel.  He was the man responsible to make sure that I do my job correctly, officially.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further.

CPT BEALE:  Anything else, Captain Somers?

CPT SOMERS:  Excuse me just a minute.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  As I understand it, you worked rather closely with Captain MacDonald.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you take PT with Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What kind of physical shape is Captain MacDonald in?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to as being beyond the scope of direct examination.  Further re-direct examination--

CPT BEALE:  Objection is sustained.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

COL ROCK:  Do you request the witness to be excused?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Captain Thoesen, you are advised that you are to discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you under-stand that?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You’re excused, subject to recall.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, the next witness we intended to call is flying in on the airplane.  A recent phone call has said the plane will be delayed by the rainy weather we’re having.  We have witnesses immediately available; that is others here on post, but they could not be gotten here on short notice.  So in view of the hour, I’d ask that we adjourn until tomorrow morning.
We need the time off so that we can talk to some of the investigators, in regard to the ruling here today.

CPT SOMERS:  The government has no objection.  We would like at this time, we’d like to get the phone numbers of the absent witnesses.

MR. SEGAL:  We’re working on that, sir, to give the government a complete list of the num-bers.  We have not had very much of an opportunity this afternoon.

COL ROCK:  Fine.  This hearing will be recessed until 0830 tomorrow morning.

(The hearing recessed at 1555 hours, 10 August 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 0830 hours, 11 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties who were present at the recess yesterday are currently in the hearing room.  Will counsel for the ac-cused please present the next evidence?

MR. SEGAL:  Lieutenant Thoesen, please.

(Lieutenant Mary Judith Thoesen was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Lieutenant Thoesen, would you state your full name?
A  Lieutenant Mary Judith Thoesen.
Q  And your rank?
A  First Lieutenant, Army Nurse Corps, United States Army Reserve.
Q  Your station?
A  Womack Army Hospital.
Q  Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A  Yes.
Q  Now do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, I do, sir.
Q  When did you first become acquainted with Captain MacDonald?
A  September of 1969.
Q  ’69?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Under what circumstances did you come to meet Captain MacDonald?
A  Through my husband, who worked with Jeff in the 3rd Special Forces Group.
Q  And is your husband Captain Thoesen, who was a witness here yesterday?
A  Yes, sir, he is.
Q  What kind of occasion did you come to be with Captain MacDonald?  Professionally or so-cially?
A  Just social, sir.
Q  And could you indicate to the investigating officer how often you would have occasion to be with Captain MacDonald?
A  Approximately once a week.
Q  Now may I ask did you also meet Colette MacDonald, the wife of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  When did you meet her?  About the same time you met Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And on various social occasions that you were with Captain MacDonald, was Mrs. MacDon-ald included in those occasions?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And how long did your relationship with the MacDonalds continue?
A  Until--you know--Jeff is a good friend of ours and until the time of Colette’s we were very good friends.
Q  Are you still on a friendly basis with Captain MacDonald, still friends?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to be in the MacDonald house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you know the MacDonald children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now based upon your observation, would you indicate to the investigating officer, what was the attitude of Colette MacDonald toward her husband?
A  Very devoted, very loving wife.  Never--you know--questioning anything.  Just a loving wife.
Q  What was the attitude of Colette MacDonald toward her children?
A  The same type of relationship.  Very loving, very close relationship, very devoted to her children.
Q  Did she at any time threaten violence or commit violence, ever strike or hit either of her children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did she ever in your presence ever threaten or actually commit violence against Captain MacDonald?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were you aware at the time of Mrs. MacDonald’s death, that she was pregnant?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did you learn of the pregnancy?
A  One evening we were over there, she told us.
Q  Do you recall about what month that was?
A  I think it was around Christmas time, December.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward her pregnancy?
A  She seemed happy about it.  She seemed to accept it and to be--you know--ready for another child, I would say.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward this pregnancy?
A  The same, I believe.
Q  Would you please indicate to the investigating officer, based upon your observation, what was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife?
A  Also a loving husband and also very devoted, very happy.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude and conduct with his children?
A  Same type of an attitude; very happy, very satisfied with his children; got a lot of enjoy-ment out of his children; loved them very much.
Q  Did you ever see or hear Captain MacDonald threaten to do injury to his children or, in fact, commit bodily injury against his children?
A  No, sir.
Q  How would you describe the behavior of the MacDonald children?
A  They seemed like very happy children.  They were well behaved, very friendly children, outgoing, very intelligent children.  Bright.  They were very bright youngsters for their age.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to observe Captain MacDonald discipline his children?
A  No.  The only thing I’ve ever seen Jeff do was maybe speak to them, you know explain to them why he asked them to do something and they would listen, usually.  Very good children.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald discipline or that is, regulate the be-havior of her children?
A  No, I think just more or less tell them, explain to them, you know, why she wanted them to do something and they would usually listen.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward Army life and her being here at Fort Bragg with her husband, serving in the Army?
A  She took it in her stride.  She accepted the demands that were made upon Jeff and she went to all the social functions and I think she just sort of enjoyed it.  She seemed to--you know--adapt very well to Army life, living on the post.
Q  When as the last time prior to February 17th, 1970, that you had occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald?
A  I believe it was one evening when myself and my husband and about 3 other couples went to dinner with them at a Japanese restaurant in Fayetteville.
Q  And how long before February 17th was that, if you recall?
A  I believe it was about three weeks or so.
Q  Had you been with the MacDonalds during that interim or any time after that?
A  No, because I was working and we just didn’t see them.  I didn’t get to see them.  My husband had been over there several times.  That’s the last time, I believe, that I saw them.
Q  What would you say Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude seemed to be towards her husband on that occasion?
A  Same as always; very happy and having a good time.
Q  What was Dr. MacDonald attitude toward his wife on that occasion?
A  The same.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  I gather from your testimony, you have been in the MacDonald home.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you say Colette was a devoted and loving wife.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What type of housekeeper was she?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  Irrelevant and immaterial.

CPT SOMERS:  It’s relevant.  The type of housekeeper she was has a definite bearing on the type of wife and mother she might have been.

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.

A  I’d say she was an average housekeeper.
Q  The question was what type of housekeeper she was.  I’m not sure how that relates to your answer.
A  I think, sir, a wife who has a husband and two kids to take care of, she was an average housekeeper.
Q  In other words, you think she was an average housekeeper?
A  Yes.
Q  Would you describe her as not the neatest housekeeper in the world?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to as irrelevant and immaterial.

CPT SOMERS:  The objection is sustained.

Q  You say that in disciplining his children, Captain MacDonald simply talked to them and ex-plained what he wanted, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you ever seen him lose his temper with his children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Have you ever seen him lose his temper with his wife?
A  No.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

COL ROCK:  Lieutenant Thoesen, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  You understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are excused permanently.

MR. SEGAL:  Mrs. Carol Butner, please.

COL ROCK:  What was that name again?

MR. SEGAL:  Mrs. Carol Butner.

(Mrs. Carol S. Butner was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name, please?
A  Carol Steib Butner.
Q  Spell that, please?
A  S-t-e-i-b.
Q  And you last name?
A  B-u-t-n-e-r.
Q  And your address?
A  I’m on my way to Okinawa.
Q  And presenting residing where?
A  San Angelo, Texas.
Q  Did you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  And did you know his wife, Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did you have occasion to meet or be with them?
A  I met them here at Fort Bragg at the end of September 1969.
Q  And what was the occasion for your being at Fort Bragg?
A  My husband was assigned to the 3rd Special Forces Group.
Q  What is your husband’s name and rank?
A  Captain Robert W. Butner.
Q  And his branch?
A  He’s with the 1st Special Forces Group.
Q  Is your husband a medical officer?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What were the circumstances of you and your husband getting to meet Captain MacDon-ald and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Captain MacDonald was then the group surgeon.  I mean--yes.  No, not the group sur-geon, but he was the head doctor, I guess, in Special Forces, to which my husband was as-signed.
Q  And as a result of your husband’s assignment there, how did you come to meet Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  They were the first people we met here and we were invited to eat at their house.  I can’t remember what day.
Q  And thereafter, did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What would you say was your relationship with Mrs. MacDonald?
A  I considered her one of my closet friends.
Q  And did you have occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald--how often did you have occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Several times a week.
Q  Then you continued to know her and be on this friendly basis with her until when?
A  Until her death on February 17th.
Q  When did you leave this station at Fort Bragg?
A  The end of June 1970.
Q  Did you know any other woman, young woman, or either an older woman here at Fort Bragg, who had a closer relationship with Mrs. MacDonald than yourself?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did any investigator from the military police or the criminal investigation division ever talk to you about Mrs. MacDonald and her background or things you might know about Mrs. Mac-Donald and her relationship with Captain MacDonald?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that as totally irrelevant.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, it goes once again to a witness who had germane information and may not have been--I think it will develop as to what was done, if anything, with regard to ascer-taining things about the relationship between Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald, which is obviously the heart of the issue here.  Whether he, in fact, is capable of and did, in fact, commit the crime and the extent and nature of the relationship between these two people seem to be a critical factor.  It relates, of course, to the very statement that the govern-ment seeks to remove in this case, because the various suggestions in this statement about the relationship.  This witness will not be available to us indefinitely, sir, and we feel it is an appropriate question to ascertain whether the government made any attempt to find out what she knew about the relationship of these people.

CPT SOMERS:  The relationship of the MacDonalds may well be relevant, but whether or not the military police talked to the witness and what they may have talked to this witness about is totally irrelevant to any issue being considered here today.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained, Captain Somers.

Continued questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Butner, based upon your observations of Mrs. MacDonald, would you indicate to the investigating officer what you believe to be her attitude towards her husband?
A  I think Colette was very much in love with Jeff.  She trusted him and she respected him.
Q  Would you indicate to the investigating officer what was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude toward her children?
A  I think Colette cared for her children and Jeff more than anything in the world.  It was so evident.  Of course, this is all subjective, but my observation of this was, it was evident in the way she talked with them, the way she was always concerned with what they were do-ing, where they were, what would be best for them.  She and Jeff were both concerned about this.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to observe Mrs. MacDonald discipline her children or regulate their behavior in any fashion?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you indicate to the court what your observations were in that regard?
A  She talked to them, with them, explaining why they could not do something.  It was a ve-ry rational conversation.  It was anything--“well, you can’t do this, get out of here” or--there was nothing like this.  It was exactly a conversation, fully explained to them what the possibilities were open to them and they accepted her correction or advice.
Q  How would you describe the behavior of the MacDonald children?
A  I thought they were very active little girls, but very well behaved and would listen to their parents.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife?
A  I think he loved her very much.
Q  Is there any particular observations in that regard that would cause you to arrive at that conclusion?
A  He was very considerate of her.  For example, I remember one night he insisted that she leave.  He knew that she wanted to do some shopping--

CPT SOMERS:  Excuse me just a moment.  I object to this.  Specific acts of good conduct cannot be used to bolster the character of the accused.

MR. SEGAL:  No one in his right mind suggests that shopping is any good conduct.  I think it shows the basis for the witness--explaining forming this opinion.  It would be obviously a proper subject of examination by any side to know why the witness has concluded the opin-ion.  It’s only the sum and substance of all observations and we ask that the witness only to share with the investigating officer that which she perhaps considered to be the most signi-ficant observations or perhaps the most typical in that regard.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.

MR. SEGAL:  Mrs. Butner, you may answer the question about the instance which you wish to cite to the investigating officer in that regard.

A  There were some things that Colette wanted to buy or take care of and with two children who were engaged in various activities, she just didn’t have time during the day, so one night Jeff insisted that she leave after supper and that he would put the kids to bed and do the dishes and take care of the other things that needed to be done while she went out and had time to get the things she wanted for herself.  Being a wife, I think this is--well, judging from my experience, this is an unusual occurrence.  Also, he bought clothes for her.  Things that he thought she would like, but maybe she didn’t have time to look at or wasn’t there to see.  
She showed me some things that he had bought in San Antonio for her when she was in New York.  He would dress for her, wear things that she especially liked.  She liked him to wear contact lenses and although this was hard for him, it’s hard to adjust to wearing lenses and wearing glasses and back and forth and he made a special effort whenever they were going out to wear his lenses.  Just so many little acts he showed his feelings toward her.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude towards his children?
A  He seemed very interested in them.  He appeared to love them very, very much.  His in-terest in them as a young doctor was sort of extraordinary to me because so many of the young doctors that we have had around seem to get irritated with the children.  The children are something to be pushed aside until Daddy’s established and can have time for the children and it’s not time--being on the emergency room and being on call, Jeff seemed very interest-ed, enough to take the time to find out what they were doing, what they wanted to do.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald discipline their children or regulate their behavior in any fashion?
A  Yes.  In much the same way that Colette did, by talking to them.  I never saw him strike or yell or speak harshly to them, but it was a conversational type of discipline, which they re-sponded to.
Q  Were you aware that Mrs. MacDonald was pregnant?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did you learn that, Mrs. Butner?
A  Out of a hectic Thanksgiving Day, I overheard part of a phone conversation, but I was not told finally until about the 20th of December.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s attitude towards this pregnancy?
A  She wanted another child.  I had known that from the very first day I met her.  She seemed very happy about it.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his wife’s pregnancy?
A  He seemed happy, too.
Q  What was Mrs. MacDonald’s emotional stability as you observed it?
A  Colette could go through more than just about any person I could be around; could coordi-nate things real great.  Again, may I give an example?
Q  Certainly.
A  On Thanksgiving Day of 1969, we were invited, along with about ten other people, over to their apartment for Thanksgiving dinner and this was a very elaborate type thing.  I don’t mean they had candelabras or anything, but there was just mounds and mounds of food which Colette had prepared.  At the last minutes, some other people were invited.  The whole place was just filled with people and Colette was getting the children in order and getting things on the table, talking to her mother-in-law, to me and to other guests, arranging to see that everyone had drinks and food and all this time trying to get the dinner on the table.  The phone rang, it was another--just all kinds of things were going on.  I kind of wanted to leave because it was just a little too much activity.  Colette never got upset, near raised her voice.  She was exhausted at the end of the meal, but everything went very smoothly.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mrs. Butner, did Colette MacDonald ever speak to you about the difficulties she might have had in delivery of her children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did she ever indicate that she was fearful of her third pregnancy?
A  No, sir.
Q  When was the last time prior to the 17th that you were in the MacDonald home?
A  I believe it was sometime in January.
Q  What kind of housekeeper was Mr. MacDonald?
A  She was an adequate housekeeper.  Everything looked nice when she--she wasn’t com-pulsive about it.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Butner, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person other than the counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand that?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are permanently excused.  Thank you.

MR. SEGAL:  Mrs. Morrell, please.

(Mrs. Butner withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mrs. Jean Morrell was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn and testified as follow-ing.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mrs. Morrell, what is your full name, please?
A  Jean Modelle Morrell.
Q  What is your present address, please?
A  2615 Gerard Avenue, Evanston, Illinois.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  How long have you known Captain MacDonald?
A  Since 1964.
Q  Did you know the wife of Captain MacDonald, Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  How long did you know Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Since 1964, also.
Q  What were the circumstances under which you came to meet Captain and Mrs. MacDon-ald?
A  Jeff and my husband were classmates in medical school at Northwestern University.
Q  What is your husband’s name?
A  James Francis Morrell.
Q  And is he a doctor?
A  Yes, he is.  He’s a surgical resident.
Q  Now, Mrs. Morrell, what is the extent of your relationship with Captain and Mrs. MacDonald while your husband was a classmate of Captain MacDonald’s?
A  We saw them socially quite often.
Q  Could you indicate how often you had occasion to be with Captain and Mrs. MacDonald?
A  About every week, usually, we’d go out together.
Q  How long was your husband at the Northwestern Medical School?
A  Four years.
Q  Following the completion of four years of medical school, did the MacDonalds leave North-western, from the Chicago area?
A  Yes, they moved to Bergenfield, New Jersey.
Q  Where did you and your husband go?
A  To Evanston.
Q  And did you have contact with the MacDonalds thereafter?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Were you still maintaining contact with the MacDonald family up to February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you indicate for the investigating officer, based upon your observations, what was the attitude of Captain MacDonald toward his wife, Colette?
A  He was a very considerate husband.  I recall that lots of times he’d come home with little gifts or something to surprise Colette.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his children?
A  He made a point of spending time with them.  We’d be over frequently and he’d have Kim-mie on his lap and reading to her, just quieting her down before bedtime.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Captain MacDonald strike or deliver any blows to his children or threaten to do such?
A  No.
Q  How did Captain MacDonald handle problems of disciplining his children or correcting their behavior?
A  He was verbally firm with his children.
Q  Did he ever have occasion to shout at them or become enraged at their behavior?
A  No.
Q  What was Colette MacDonald’s attitude toward her husband?
A  She loved and respected Jeff very much.
Q  What was Colette MacDonald’s attitude toward her children?
A  She was a very loving mother and she wasn’t a token mother.  She wasn’t above getting down on her hands and knees and playing with them on the floor and giving them piggy-back rides and things like this.
Q  Did you ever see or hear Mrs. MacDonald ever threaten to strike or do any kind of bodily harm to her husband, Captain MacDonald?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever see Mrs. MacDonald threaten or strike the children?
A  No.
Q  Did--how did Mrs. MacDonald handle the discipline and correction of the behavior of her children?
A  She would speak with them and reason with them rather than command, I would say.
Q  Did you ever have an occasion to her become angry or holler at her children?
A  No.
Q  When was the most recent time prior to February 17th, 1970, that you had any occasion to have communication from the MacDonalds?
A  We received a note from them and a Christmas card in December 1969.
Q  Do you have that card?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Do you have it with you?
A  Yes.
Q  You’re holding in your hand a document.  Is that the Christmas card that you received from the MacDonalds?
A  Yes, this is half of it.
Q  Do you recognize the handwriting on the card?
A  Yes, it’s Colette.
Q  Would you please read to the investigating officer the contents of that card?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this, unless some kind of relevance is shown.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, this is with relevance to the testimony of other witnesses, that is specific expressions of the feelings, attitude of Colette MacDonald on the very questions the govern-ment has asked.  The attitude toward her pregnancy, the attitude toward her husband, the attitude toward their military service, are not expressed by the words and interpretations of third parties, but we have here the original writing by Mrs. MacDonald in which she expresses her views in this matter.  I could consider nothing more direct, I think, in terms of specific information, than her own words and her own writing that’s available to us at this time.

COL ROCK:  I assume you wish to make this an exhibit?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, I will mark it as an exhibit.  I do wish the witness to read it.

CPT SOMERS:  The question of the handwriting--

COL ROCK:  All right, proceed.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.

MR. SEGAL:  We would like, if we may, sir, after Mrs. Morrell finishes, to mark this exhibit and then substitute a photo-static copy so that the Morrells may keep the original.  Mrs. Morrell, would you be good enough to go ahead and read the card first.

A “We’re having a great, all-expense paid vacation in the Army.  It looks as if Jeff will be here in North Carolina for the entire two years, which is an immense load off my mind, at least.  Life has never been so normal or so happy.  Jeff is home every day at five and most days ev-en comes home for lunch.  I’m taking a literature course at North Carolina State University and have to read two books a week.  Consequently, I haven’t written to a soul since we moved, but I do think of all you Morrells.  Oh, by the way, been having such a good time lately that we’re expecting a son in July.  Also, in passing, the only airline which flies to Fay-etteville are Piedmont, but it flies directly from Chicago.  We have an extra bedroom and Jeff is off every weekend, so pick your time.  We would love to see you.  Any time is convenient for us.  We don’t have a Trader Vic’s, but we could improvise.” And then she signed it “Love.”  The last syllable is written on the other page.

MR. SEGAL:  You may cross-examine.  If I may, I’d like to mark that, please and request at this time to have it marked as Accused Exhibit A-33.

(Accused Exhibit A-33, Christmas card from Colette MacDonald to the Morrells, was marked.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mrs. Morrell, was there any other handwriting on this card?
A  Yes, on the greeting side of the card was the Christmas greeting printed there and then the closing and the last syllable of improvise.
Q  By closing, you mean something like, “Sincerely yours” or “love”?
A  As I said before, she said, “Love, Jeff, Colette, Kimberly and Kristen.”
Q  How old was Kristen when the MacDonalds moved away from Illinois?
A  She was just about a year.
Q  And how old was Kimberly?
A  Kim was four.
Q  As I understand it now, you say that you saw the MacDonalds socially about once a week, during medical school.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  So that means that you’ve seen them well in excess of a hundred times socially?
A  I would say so, yes.
Q  And on each of these occasions, did you happen to see them in their home setting--
A  Yes.
Q  And on no occasion have you seen either parent angry or exasperated with their children?
A  No.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you, Mrs. Morrell, I have nothing further.

COL ROCK:  Mrs. Morrell, you are requested not to discuss your testimony in this case with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you un-derstand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are permanently excused.  Thank you.

(Mrs. Morrell withdrew from the courtroom.)

MR. SEGAL:  Captain Moore, please.

(Captain Frank Moore was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as following.)

COL ROCK:  CPT Moore, please speak loudly and clearly so that both the reporter and I may hear your remarks.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Captain Moore, do you know--I beg your pardon.  Would you state your full name and rank, please?
A  James Frank Moore, Captain.
Q  Your branch?  Medical Service Corps?
A  Medical Corps.
Q  Your unit?
A  Headquarters, JFK Center.
Q  Your armed force?  Your service?
A  United States Army.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  How long have you known Captain MacDonald?
A  Since last September when he was assigned to Special Forces.
Q  What were the circumstances under which you came to have contact with Captain Mac-Donald in Special Forces?
A  I was the senior MSC in the Surgeon’s office in the third group.  When Captain MacDonald came, I was in the field up at Nalahala.  He joined us there.  I worked for him.  He was my boss, so to speak.  I’ve been in the Army quite a while, but I was--it’s always our job to as-sist these people and help them when they first come in the Army.
Q  And did you, in fact, undertake the job of briefing and orienting Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I did.  He was real responsive to this.  He was really--
Q  How often did you have occasion to be with Captain MacDonald on a professional basis?
A  Well, daily.  I worked for him every day.  In the field, as well as in garrison when we came back from the field, until the 3rd disbanded.  We worked together closing down the 3rd Group, handing in property in the surgeon section and closing it out.
Q  When was that?
A  December of this past--this past December.
Q  Did you continue to have contact with Captain MacDonald after December?
A  Yes, we were friends, working together all the time, of course, we became friends.  Our families knew each other.  He had a pony and a wagon and all the little girls the same age as his children and my little girls spent the night at his house and we’d go out to where the pony was at, play with them, families together.
Q  You say “we.” Do you mean Captain MacDonald, yourself and the children?
A  Yes, and my wife and my family.  The pony was kept off Bragg Boulevard, with this family and my little girl enjoyed the animals and the friendship of his children.
Q  I would gather from what you say, then, that you had an opportunity to observe Captain MacDonald not only in his professional capacity, but in his relationship with his children?
A  Yes, on many occasions, I would go and eat lunch at his house, because I lived off post.  I visited the family unexpectedly, as well as being invited and people knowing I was coming, so I saw the family when they weren’t expecting people to be there.
Q  Would that include Mrs. MacDonald as well as the children?
A  Yes.  Colette fixed sandwiches and food for us at lunch.  I saw them on many occasions like this.
Q  Let me ask you, Captain Moore, based on your observations of Captain MacDonald; first of all, you’ve seen his relationship to his wife.  On these occasions when you were together, what would you say Captain MacDonald’s attitude was toward his wife?
A  A very outstanding husband, I would say.  I’m older than him, have been married a long time, and I could learn things from him, his relationship with his wife, as far as being nice, friendly, courteous, remembering to say little thing like, “Honey, the sandwiches were real good” or “you look extremely nice today,” or just--I just kind of stumble on, I don’t say these things probably like I should.  I did, I learned some things from Jeff and his relation with his wife.
Q  Did you ever hear Captain MacDonald threaten his wife in terms of doing bodily injury to her or strike or ill use her in any way?
A  Oh, no.  Oh, no.
Q  Captain Moore, what was Captain MacDonald’s attitude toward his children?
A  He directed his children in good things, he corrected them firmly.  He never shouted at them or struck them that I saw.  He’d explain to them, you know, “if you do this or if you don’t do that, you could have ill effect or bad effects by doing it,” like, especially around the pony or playing around the yard, you know; “you don’t chase the ball into the street because a car will hit you,” instead of screaming at them, especially the older girl.  Never screamed or yelled at her.  He was very patient with them.  Whenever we got off at lunch, when we’d go there to eat, the kids would coming running out to meet their daddy and climb on him and pull on him.  They were extremely happy to see him.  When I go home, my thirteen year old says, “well, dad, you’re home, so what, big deal,” but his kids seemed very happy to see him.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald either strike, threaten to strike or in any way physi-cally abuse his children?
A  Oh, no.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s emotional stability?
A  I think he was very, very stable.  I’ve seen him in aircraft, getting ready to jump, before jumping.  Being a novice jumper, some people, a lot of people get anxious or have mixed emo-tions.  I’d say Captain MacDonald is very stable.  I’ve seen him make decisions at command briefings in the 3rd Group, medical decisions, not for patients, for the operation part of the group; he’s very cool, calm and collected and makes sound decisions.  Emotionally, he’s sta-ble.  He handles himself very well.
Q  What kind of officer would you say Captain MacDonald was?
A  Well, all we knew, he was a two-year doctor.  Well, we assumed--he might have been
longer, but you have to understand that some of these people, when they’re drafted into the Army, have very negative attitudes.  Captain MacDonald was not that way.  He had a real good attitude.  We refer to it as the saying goes, as gung-ho.  He seemed to enjoy his work.
He felt that if a job was worth doing at all, it worth doing real well.  He’s very capable of do-ing it well.  He always did a real good job, exceptional job.
Q  Has he--have you served in any combat areas, Captain Moore?
A  I was in Vietnam for a year and I compare Captain MacDonald to the Commanding Officers I had in the medical companies in the First Division and the 101st Airborne Division, I’d say MacDonald is head and shoulders above any of these people as a military and as a doctor, and as a human being.
Q  Would you be willing to serve with and under him and in a combat area again?
A  Well, I can’t say again, but I would--right, I would serve with him anywhere again, if it was combat or if it was peacetime.  It would be a privilege to serve with him.
Q  Based upon your observations of Mrs. MacDonald, on occasions with her, how would you characterize her emotional stability?
A  Very Good.  Example:  I went to their home one day to have lunch, sandwiches, like I mentioned before and she was very elated, excited and she and Jeff both explained to me that she was expecting and that they were going to have another child and they were both very happy about the fact that they were going to have another child.  She, socially, any time I was there, she was cool, calm and collected at all times.  I never saw her out of bal-ance any way at all, other--or lose her temper at all.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you Captain Moore.  You may cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Your professional relationship with Captain MacDonald was that of a non-medical person-nel, was it not?  You’re not a doctor, are you?
A  No, I’m an MSC, as I stated before.
Q  And you’ve seen Captain MacDonald on duty in the field, is that correct?
A  In garrison and in the field, yes.  Yes, we were in the field on numerous occasions and in garrison, too.
Q  What was Captain MacDonald’s apparent physical condition?
A  Very good.  I ran with him, taken PT with him.  I’m a little older than he is and he is real good shape.
Q  Have you ever boxed with him?
A  No.
Q  Does he box?
A  I think he’s mentioned that he boxed somewhere back in school, a little bit, in our conver-sation somewhere.  But never any lengthy conversation about it.  When I was teenager, I boxed in the Golden Gloves and I think that he mentioned something, he had boxed some-where in the past.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald ever state to you that he would have been satisfied with two chil-dren?
A  No, I don’t think we ever discussed that.
Q  Did you speak to a CID agent named Hodges on the 24th of February?
A  I spoke with a CID agent.  I’m not sure of his name and I’m not sure of the date, but a man came to my house, who showed me his credentials and I accepted him as a CID agent.
He came into my house and said he’d like to talk with my wife and I, yes.
Q  If I was to tell you that his resume of that conversation indicates that you stated to him that Captain MacDonald told you that he would have been satisfied with two children, would you say that was incorrect?

MR. SEGAL:  Excuse me.  That’s objected to, sir.  In accordance with the procedures previ-ously set forth in these hearing, if the government is suggesting that it has a statement of Captain Moore, I believe it’s appropriate at this time to make it available to Captain Moore to see it and also counsel for the accused to see it and to ask whether or not the station is correct or incorrect and he may explain, of course, if there are any variances with anything he’s said today.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the government does not have a sworn statement by Captain Moore and that’s what we’re talking about; nor does it have a statement of any type.  It has some in-vestigative notes and it’s simply asking this witness questions about that interview.  If he wishes to answer the question in the negative, fine.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, it would probably be better to merely ask the witness the facts, as opposed to suggesting to him what somebody else might say.  Just put the question to him as to whether or not he ever stated such and such or so and so and if you establish that he, in fact, did, then you can bring in Mr. Hodges.  Okay?

CPT SOMERS:  Well, he stated that Captain MacDonald never said that.  He has yet to state whether he ever said that Captain MacDonald said it.

CPT BEALE:  Okay, well he can answer that portion of it.  But if he say no, then you--

MR. SEGAL:  I do object to the form of that question.

CPT BEALE:  I realize that.  Rephrase your question.

CPT SOMERS:  All right.  I will.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Did you tell that CID agent that Captain MacDonald had told you that he would have been satisfied with two children?
A  I can honestly say that I did not say that and I did not imply that in any way.
Q  Captain Moore, you said that you and Captain MacDonald were together when the 3rd Group was disbanded.  Is that correct?
A  What I said is that the 3rd had notification of being disbanded.  We worked together in closing out the property of the surgeon’s section.
Q  What happened to all that property?
A  I--

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  It’s specified by Army regulations as to what happened to--there’s no suggestion here that regulations were not complied with.

CPT SOMERS:  I was about to suggest it, sir, and I think it bears on the general character of the accused.

MR. SEGAL:  There’s no statement of charges here against Captain MacDonald for having in any way misappropriated or misdistributed government property.  I object to the question.

CPT SOMERS:  There’s evidence here as to his character as a soldier and this bears on it.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, your objection is overruled.  Answer the question, Captain Moore.

A  Would you re-state your question, please?  Give it to me again.
Q  How was that property, in the medical supply, how was that disposed of?
A  Would you like a run down on piece by piece or would you like in general?
Q  In general.
A  I had been signed for that property--it had been signed over to another man at this parti-cular time and I personally supervised the turning in, through proper channels, of accountable for the government property.
Q  Are you saying that Captain MacDonald received none of it?
A  I didn’t say that.  You said that.
Q  I’m asking you if that’s what you said.

MR. SEGAL:  I object to this form of a question, sir.  It implies something that’s not in evi-dence.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.  Rephrase your question, Captain Somers.

Q  Did Captain MacDonald receive some of that property?
A  I don’t know.
Q  Would that have been correct channels?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  He’s already answered the question.  That all the property was returned through appropriate government sources.

CPT BEALE:  Move to another area, Captain Somers.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further of Captain Moore, sir.

COL ROCK:  Captain Moore, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no per-son other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, subject to recall.  This hearing will be recessed for 15 minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 0938 hours, 11 August 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 0956 hours, 11 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties that were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time, we are attempting to complete the telephone arrangements to call Dr. Frederick Herter, who is our next witness.  We’re supposed to have a conference call ready in a moment.

(A telephone conference was placed to Dr. Frederick who testified as follows.)

CPT Douthat: Doctor Herter, the next voice will be Colonel Rock who is presiding officer, or investigating officer and he will swear you in these proceedings and instruct you as follows.

WITNESS:  Right.

COL ROCK:  Doctor Herter, this is Colonel Rock.  Would you please raise your right hand?


COL ROCK:  And please speak loudly so that we can hear you here in the hearing room.

(Doctor Herter was sworn.)

COL ROCK:  The next voice that you will hear will be that of counsel for the accused, Mr. Segal.

WITNESS:  Right.

MR. SEGAL:  Doctor, can you hear me?

WITNESS:  Yes, I can hear you.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you please state your full name and your address for the record of this case?
A  Frederick Herter, H-e-r-t-e-r, 155 Shauman Avenue, New York.
Q  And what is your profession, sir?
A  I’m a physician.
Q  And what is--what position do you presently hold?
A  I’m a professor of surgery at Columbia University, acting chairman of the Department of Surgery, and Director of the Surgical Services at Presbyterian Hospital.
Q  When you say that you are professor of surgery, what does that position involve?
A  It’s essentially an academic title in the University.  There are several ranks for professors.  This is full professorship.
Q  Now what connection do you have with medical students who are residents at the Colum-bia Presbyterian Hospital?
A  Well, at the present time the Chairman of the Department.  I’m in charge of some 40 mem-bers of the surgical house staff.  These are interns and residents in training.
Q  Would you state just simply for the record what are your professional qualifications?  What is your education and your licensing background?
A  Yes, I--I went to Harvard College as an undergraduate.  From there to Harvard Medical School from whence I graduated in 1944.  I took a surgical internship at Presbyterian Hospital in New York, interrupted by two years in the Army Medical Corps, and returned, finished my internship, assistant residency and residency, and I got through my formal training in 1953.  I have been on the surgical staff at--as the attending surgeon since that time.
Q  Now in your position in connection with Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, are you also re-quired to be board certified in any particular areas?
A  Yes, everybody on our attending staff is board certified in general surgery, and some are also board certified by--in thoracic surgery, or in plastic surgery.
Q  What are your particular certifications, sir?
A  General surgery.
Q  Are you the author of any articles or materials in the field of general surgery?
A  Yes, I’ve written roughly 40 surgical articles, which appeared in surgical literature.
Q  Now did you have occasion to become in contact with Jeffrey R. MacDonald as an intern at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  When were you in contact?  When was Captain, or rather Doctor MacDonald at Columbia Presbyterian?
A  Well, he got through his internship a few years ago, and all of the members of the surgical attending staff, of course, have contact, all of the members of the house staff.  They work together on a day by day basis.
Q  At any time are you called upon or required to evaluate the work of the interns?
A  Yes, There is a very important evaluation of the interns that occurs approximately four months after they come onto service, and again at the end of their internship here.  But we have to make certain choices in the fall of the year following the beginning of the internship, which occurs in July.
Q  Would you hold on one second?  All right you can resume, there was some interference on the line.  Again, do the best you can to speak into the phone.  We are having some difficulty with the amplification at this end, but would you resume in describing the evaluation of the interns?
A  Well, in October or November of each year, generally speaking, we pick four men from out of our twelve-man internship group, to be appointed at this residence to start the following July.  This is the practice four months after they arrive on the service, and we have to do it this far ahead of time so that those men who are not chosen to continue in our program can obtain good positions in other hospital training programs, so that at that time, in the late fall, we have to evaluate the entire internship group.  We generally make our choices for the fol-lowing year at that time, and those men who are not going on in general surgery; we try and help place them in other training programs.
Q  Doctor Herter, may I ask how many interns are accepted for Columbia Presbyterian Hospi-tal, and what, if any, selection process is applied to the picking of the interns?
A  We take twelve interns each year.  They serve from July 1 of one year to June 30th of the following year.  Now this is out of a group of applicants that number somewhere between 150 and 200 names.
Q  Bear with me just a second, Doctor Herter.  Doctor Herter?
A  Yes.
Q  Now did you have occasion to evaluate the performance of Doctor Jeffrey R. MacDonald while he was an intern at Columbia Presbyterian?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  And what was the evaluation that was made of Captain MacDonald?
A  Well, Doctor MacDonald was considered by all the members of the attending staff who evaluated him, to be a very straight intern.  I cannot remember in detail enough to know where we rated him in terms of one through twelve, but he was within the top half of the list.
He was considered to have done an excellent job in performance of his various orders and we felt that he was qualified to go on for further residency training in a particular field that he desired with our full recommendation.
Q  Doctor Herter, what are the characteristics or qualities that were evaluated in arriving at this view of each of the interns?  And again addressing yourself, if you can, to whatever your records would indicate or your information indicates about Captain MacDonald.
A  Right.  Well, surgery, in particular the years of training in surgery, is fairly stressful occu-pation.  A man may come into the internship with a fine medical school record, a fine aca-demic record, but we may find after a short period that under the stresses and strains of surgical work, and particularly the long hours that are involved, he may not be--we can tell generally, after a short period of time, whether a person has the stamina and equilibrium to act intelligently and rationally under various circumstances.  By that a man who can make a decision at four o’clock in the morning with a clear head and come to a reasonable conclu-sion.  Now this I--this is the characteristic which I suppose is most important in a surgeon.
Obviously, a man would not be picked for an intern who does not have intellectual qualifica-tions.  All these men of course, had fine records at the school, but it’s really the quality of being able to stand up under stress, make decisions, and follow through on them, which guides us in our decisions in evaluating.
Q  And in regard to Captain MacDonald, would you indicate that the--that he was found to either have or the lack of those qualifications?  That you described as necessary and are desirable for a qualified intern to be further recommended.
A  Oh, absolutely.  I think Doctor MacDonald fulfilled all of the criteria with a--flying colors.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you, doctor; I think at this time the counsel for the government may have some questions for you.  Would you please bear with us?


Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Doctor, this is Captain Somers.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you hear me?
A  Yes, I can hear you.
Q  I gather from what you’ve been telling us that a man, who has the requisite qualifications, must have some considerable physical stamina.  Is that correct?
A  This is correct, yes.  I think during the internship here, a man, while he’s on duty, which is every other night, averages about three hours of sleep, so it does require some physical en-durance.
Q  And Captain MacDonald, I gather, did have this stamina?
A  Yes, I certainly recall that he did.

CPT SOMERS:  Excuse me just a moment, please.

Q  As I understand it, doctor, you are also looking for the quality of being under control, be-ing calm, cool and clear-headed.  Is this correct?
A  This is correct.
Q  And Doctor MacDonald had those qualifications.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, this is correct.  I think it is fair to say that if Doctor MacDonald had desired to go on to general surgery, he would have been given very close attention from the point of view of the evaluating group.  I cannot tell you, because I cannot recall what the details of his stat-us with regard to the other interns in absolute clarity, but I think he would have been listed high and had he gone on in general surgery, he probably would have continued his training with us at Presbyterian.

CPT SOMERS:  Thank you, doctor.  I have no further questions.  I am going to turn you back over to Colonel Rock.

WITNESS:  Right.

COL ROCK:  Doctor Herter, this is Colonel Rock.  Sir, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the ac-cused.

WITNESS:  Absolutely.

COL ROCK:  Fine, thank you very much.

WITNESS:  You are very welcome.

CPT Douthat: Doctor Herter, this is Captain Douthat.  I want to thank you very much for your testimony.

MR. SEGAL:  At this time the accused calls Captain James Williams.

(Captain James N.  Williams was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Captain, would you state your full name and rank?
A  My name is Captain James N. Williams, I’m Captain, MSC.
Q  And your unit?
A  I am in Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces.
Q  And your military service?
A  My service number?
Q  No, are you in the United States Army?
A  I’m in the United States Army, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  What is your particular assignment as a medical service officer, as you’ve indicated?
A  I am the Operations and Training Officer of the Group Surgeon’s section of the 6th Special Forces.
Q  And how long have you held that particular position?
A  I have been OTO for approximately one year.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R.  MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  When did you first come in contact with Captain MacDonald?
A  The first time I came in contact with Captain MacDonald was in December of 1969 when the 3rd deactivated.  He was then assigned to the 6th Special Forces Group.  I physically had control of Captain Jeffrey MacDonald in January of 1970, when he reported in and as-signed by the Group Surgeon, Captain Meyland Easton, to myself in the position of Preventive Medicine Officer on the medical section of the group.
Q  And you remained in contact with Captain MacDonald from that time until this date?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  How often did you have contact with Captain MacDonald once he joined your unit?
A  I had daily contact with Captain MacDonald.
Q  And what was the nature of this contact with him?
A  In my position as operations officer, I would have the task of passing on details to all med-ical officers in that section, to assign duties, to supervise the officers in the absence of the Group Surgeon.  Also to take phone calls for these doctors, if it was necessary.
Q  Captain Williams, how long have you been a Medical Service Corps Officer?
A  I’ve been a Medical Service Corps Officer for four years.
Q  And have you served at other stations, other than Fort Bragg?
A  Yes, sir, I have.  In four years of active duty, I’ve served one year overseas and almost three years at Fort Bragg.
Q  How many group surgeons have you had contact with in the course of your service?
A  I have had contact with 8 group surgeons to this date.  Captain MacDonald was my sixth.
Q  And how many medical officers all together have you dealt with in a professional relation-ship?
A  In my four years of service, I have served with approximately 30 MCs, doctors.
Q  And how would you rate Captain MacDonald’s capabilities as a physician from what you’ve observed of all these doctors?
A  In my years of experience, which are very limited, I know of only two MC Officers whom I would rate as absolutely superior.  One of these is Captain MacDonald.
Q  How would you rate Captain MacDonald as a military officer?
A  He was absolutely superior in all manners.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s emotional stability?
A  Captain MacDonald was the most stable individual I have ever met.  Serving with him, for supervision and in his position as my supervisor when he became group surgeon.
Q  Did you know Captain MacDonald’s wife, Colette MacDonald and their children?
A  In the process of accepting an officer into my outfit, into our unit, I filled out personal data cards on them.  I knew of Colette and his two girls, but I had never met Colette or the two children.
Q  Now did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on or about February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.  The first time I saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th of February, on a Tuesday, was approximately 1600 hours, at Womack Army Hospital.  I was allowed to get on up and go into the recovery room, a private recovery room, where I spent approximately 15 minutes.
Q  May I ask how did you come to be allowed to be in with Captain MacDonald at Womack Army Hospital?
A  At 0430 that morning, on the 17th, I was called by Lieutenant Charles Pendlyshok, who was my MSC medical supply officer.  His position was staff duty officer of the 6th, that morn-ing.  He called me at my home and told me that something dreadful had happened to Captain Mac and his family.  I came in to group headquarters.  I spent approximately two minutes talking with Lieutenant Pendlyshok and immediately went over to Womack Hospital.
Q  You’ve described seeing him for approximately 15 minutes on the 17th, did you see him again on the 18th?
A  I came back over--I stayed at the hospital approximately 36 hours straight.  I saw him on the 18th, in the morning at about 0930, when I was again allowed to see him.  I asked him if he needed anything.  
Q  Did you see him again on the 18th or the 19th?
A  During the period, I must have been in his room 3 or 4 more times.
Q  Going back to the first time you saw him, did you have occasion to observe any injuries on or about his head?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Would you describe them for the investigating officer?  Describe where these were, as you recall them?
A  On the evening of the 17th when I first saw him, I walked into the room.  The first impres-sion I had was that he had injuries on his forehead that appeared to me to be horns.
Q  When you say “horns” are you using that as any kind of characterization or did they actu-ally look like horns?
A  It appeared to me that it was horns.  In actuality, when I looked closely, there were con-tusions.
Q  Now would you indicate these two locations--now, if I may, you indicated one on the left side of his forehead and one on the right side of the forehead?
A  That’s correct.
Q  Did you observe any other injuries on Captain MacDonald’s head besides those two on his forehead that you have now pointed out?
A  Yes, I did.  I was standing at the foot of his bed.  Someone came to the door.  He turned his head to the left, in this position.  At that time, I noticed that he had hair matted down on the back of his head in approximately this location.  It appeared to me that it was a knot.
Q  Just hold it a second.  You’re indicating, if I see correctly, a position on the right side of the head, above and slightly toward the interior of the right ear?
A  That is correct.
Q  All right, sir, you may go on.  What else did you observe about the head injuries at that time?
A  When I looked at him, he was coming out of sedation.  He was still heavily sedated.  His speech was slurred, but we didn’t say anything when we looked at each other at first.  Then I told him, “Jeff, I’m sorry.”  Again, we paused.  We couldn’t say anything to each other, and at that time, during that pause, as I had been trained to do, I started from the head and the eyes, went down towards his chest--
Q  What did you observe about the injury on his chest?
A  I noticed, sir that the chest tube on his lower right lung in position.  As my eyes read to the left lower portion of his body, I noticed that there were various superficial lacerations, to my opinion.
Q  Did anything else happen at that time that you noted?
A  At that time, the prosaic thought came into my mind, “My God, he’s dying,” because he was shocky, he was completely pale, his eye did not appear to be normal, he was having dif-ficulty breathing; also, I was so concerned that I didn’t even say goodbye.  I walked out, or rather hurried out.  I grabbed hold of the first medic that I came to and I said, “Get someone in there, I think he’s dying.”
Q  I ask you when you say his eyes didn’t appear normal, what, if anything, did you observe about his eyes at that point?
A  His eyes appeared not to focus on me; they appeared rather glazed, he just didn’t look me in the eye.
Q  Now after you reported what you observed to the medical personnel that you saw there in the hospital, did you subsequently see Captain MacDonald and did you note anything about his condition or position of anything on his body?
A  In the next one or two days, when I came back in, I noticed that they had moved the chest tube from the lower right portion to the upper right portion.  I asked Mac about this, because with my limited medical knowledge, I was assuming that they had taken the tube completely out.  I’d been told this.  I was concerned about the fact that this position had been moved.  I asked Captain Mac why had they changed the tube and he told me at the time that he’d had a setback and his lung had started to collapse again.  That’s the only change I noticed, other than the fact he became more coherent as the days went on.
Q  To your knowledge, did Captain MacDonald have any enemies among the men that he served with as Group Physician or medical officer in your unit?
A  To my knowledge he had no enemies who stated they were enemies.  Yet there was one instance which occurred in the middle of January, which changed the feeling of all members that came to see him in his function as Preventative Medicine Officer, is the drug abuse counselor.
Q  Would you describe that instance to the investigating officer?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this unless it can be shown that it is in some way connected to this particular case.

MR. SEGAL:  I’d like to make an offer of proof.  Perhaps you’d like Captain Williams to be ex-cused, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Williams, would you step outside for a second?

A  Yes, sir.

(Captain Williams withdrew from the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  May it please the investigating officer, one of the aspects, it appears to me, in the prosecution’s case, is that there was no motive for anyone else to have inflicted the in-juries to Captain MacDonald and to kill his wife and two children.  We intend to show by the testimony of Captain Williams, an episode involving a change of attitude by another personnel of the unit which Captain MacDonald was the preventative medicine officer, which involved persons who had abused various drugs and narcotics.  That the testimony would indicate the circumstances of that and the fact that there came to be the belief that Captain MacDonald was, in fact, reporting to Military Police and other authorities enlisted personnel who were negated in the abuse of drugs.  I think that this is very much to the heart of the matter, since the government feels that there’s no motive for other people to have revengeful or oth-er motives against Captain MacDonald and his family.

CPT SOMERS:  In the first place, the government has no such testimony.  In the second place, the simple fact that somebody may have had a change of attitude toward him con-cerning drug counseling is, as I said, irrelevant, unless it can be shown that some of these people specifically might have been involved in this incident on the evening in question.

MR. SEGAL:  May I just add for the edification of the investigating officer, the government seeks to introduce statements of April 6th, 1970, and if the government had examined the statements carefully, it would find that--since I expect that they will eventually, probably come in--that the investigating officer--investigating agencies, rather, spent considerable periods of time inquiring of Captain MacDonald as to the motives of other persons against him and his family.  They devoted considerable questions to what they considered to be the ab-sence of motive and we intend to show, I think, through the testimony of Captain Williams, and possibly other witnesses, that there was a very substantial circumstance--we’re not necessarily able to identify these, but there were persons who were jeopardized, in danger of severe punishment because of their use of drugs, and what they had told Captain MacDonald, which he in turn was--as it happened in some of the incidents, was compelled to reveal to other persons.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your objection is overruled and this witness will be able to tes-tify to this particular matter.

(Captain Williams was recalled and testified further as follows.)

CPT BEALE:  Captain Williams, you are again reminded that you are under oath.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Captain Williams, just prior to your leaving the room, you had started to describe an inci-dent in the middle of January 1970, which you indicated you believed had some effect in-volving the attitude of personnel in your unit toward Captain MacDonald.
A  Yes, sir.  At the first of January, we started having more and more cases of young men requesting counseling by a doctor.  These were drug abusers that we were trying to kick the habit or get more information.  The command on the post initiated a drug program, to try to give information to these young people.  In my capacity, I would receive calls and schedule almost all these young men to see Captain MacDonald.  He was the only doctor in my group that did counseling to these young men.  To keep continuity, in the middle of January, we were asked by the group surgeon to present a 15 minute talk to the entire 6th Group on the medical aspects of drug abuse.  I assisted Captain Easton in preparing charts and the initial run-through or the practice talk on this.  We all met in the auditorium, in group formation.
Mr. Pat Reese gave his lecture, Captain Easton gave his talk and then the Chaplain, James Ware, gave his talk.  During the Chaplin’s lecture, basically on the morality of drug abuse, or the immorality, he mentioned the fact that he was the only person who had privileged con-versation.  In other words, he defined it down to the men that even talking to a doctor is not privileged in this conversation.
Q  Would you please explain what he meant by privileged?
A  He explained by what he meant by privileged, the fact that if it came to a court-martial, a doctor would be called to testify and he would be required, according to Army regulations, he would not be able to shelter an individual.  At the completion of this lecture, many, many people, young men came to me and asked if this was true and I said yes.  Immediately, a no-ticeable drop in the next week of those people who were scheduled for Captain MacDonald.
And those people that would talk to me as far as anyone counseling them were evasive.  Be-fore they would tell me in general terms why they wanted to see Captain MacDonald, they would ask for him by name.  This next week, in the last part of January, we had almost no drug abuse counseling.  When Captain MacDonald became surgeon, he still counseled those people that were referred by the doctors; in essence, in January, I was scheduling drug abuse patients to be counseled, after the lecture, only those referred by the doctors at the clinic, who were suspected drug abuse, would see Captain MacDonald.
Q  Did you learn from talking to various enlisted personnel that you referred to, that they were suspicious to--of Captain MacDonald reporting enlisted men to the authorities for drug abuse?
A  The information I received from my medics during the various training, was that Captain MacDonald had the reputation of being a “fink.”
Q  When you say he was a “fink”, would you tell us that in formal language, at least for the record, so that all may be aware of what you mean by that colloquial term?
A  My medics indicated to me that they believed men were being turned in to CID for being on drugs.
Q  To your knowledge, did Captain MacDonald, in fact, report any men to the CID or the military police authorities for alleged drug abuse that they admitted to him in his counseling sessions?
A  I have no information whatsoever that he ever turned in even one man.
Q  Did you see any CID investigators or military police investigators talking with Captain Mac-Donald in December, January, up to February 1970?
A  There were no CID, PM investigators or any such personnel around our office talking to Captain MacDonald.
Q  Did any investigators from the CID or the military police call trying to arrange for appoint-ments, that you were aware of, to talk to Captain MacDonald, in this regard?
A  I know of no instances.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Captain Williams, you are not a doctor.  Is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  And you’re not then fully qualified to judge Captain MacDonald as a doctor, are you?
A  I am qualified to judge him on personnel qualifications and the officer efficiency reports, other than those that involved medical knowledge, technical knowledge.
Q  That’s not what I’m asking you.  On his personnel qualifications--

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to, sir.  What’s he saying, sir, the best of his observations of Captain MacDonald and a number of other similar rank officers; he’s given an estimation in performing his duties as a surgeon, as a physician or officer.  And I think he’s had adequate opportunity to observe.  Obviously, he’s not the same as Dr. Herter, who can rate him totally from a professional basis, but this witness, on the basis of the qualifications he’s given us, namely; his opportunities to observe and compare.  As far as I can make the answer--ques-tion, it’s proper.

CPT SOMERS:  This witness has specifically rated Captain MacDonald and gave an opinion on Captain MacDonald’s being a supervisor--medically.

CPT BEALE:  As a layman, Captain Somers.

CPT SOMERS:  That’s what I’m inquiring into.  The basis of his opinion and his qualifications to judge.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  You’ve described Captain MacDonald as very stable, is that correct?
A  That’s right.
Q  What do you mean by stable?  What does that word mean to you in that context?
A  Captain MacDonald is a highly motivated young man.  He is well oriented--
Q  That’s what stable means to you?
A  That’s correct.
Q  Now when you saw Captain MacDonald and decided that you thought he was dying, and that he was shocky, didn’t you testify that he was just coming out of sedation at that time?
A  At the time I did not know how long he had been out of surgery.  Based upon my non-professional association with war wounds, I thought he was dying.
Q  Captain, that’s not what I asked you.

MR. SEGAL:  I object, sir.  The question, if it’s unclear, should be rephrased.  The witness answered the question what the witness saw--

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  At the time you saw Captain MacDonald, when you formed the opinion that he was dying and that he was shocky, did you not state that he was just out or coming out of sedation?
A  I don’t believe I understand your question, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase it.  Ask the question again, Captain Somers.

Q  When you first saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th, was he under sedation?
A  I have no idea.  I knew he had come out of surgery.
Q  Captain Williams, when you were describing this incident, the first time you saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th, in the direct examination done by Mr. Segal, a few minutes ago, did you not state that Captain MacDonald was just coming out of sedation when you saw him?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  I see.  Now, what are the symptoms which would lead you to believe that?
A  I was told prior to going up that he’d just come out of surgery and in my layman’s opinion, surgery denotes anesthesia; therefore, I assumed he was sedated.
Q  Have you, in your limited contacts with the medical profession, seen people under sedation before?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  And are aware of any symptoms which they display?
A  I’m not medically qualified to give the full spectrum of all sedation.
Q  Would you know any of the symptoms?

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  I think the form of question is improper.

CPT SOMERS:  It’s proper, if he’s seen sedation.

MR. SEGAL:  Relative to Captain MacDonald, not if he’s seen symptoms in others he might have observed.

CPT SOMERS:  This is a medical service officer.  He does receive some medical training and he’s worked around medical personnel.  If he knows what some of the symptoms are, then I think he’s qualified to say so.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.  Answer the question, if you can.

A  I--

COL ROCK:  Please re-state the question.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you tell us, if you can, please, what symptoms does a sedated person have that you’ve seen?  What symptoms would you look for in a sedated person?
A  In a sedated person, that I have seen, many people, I have seen decreased respirations, lower pulse rate--I don’t remember whether pupils are dilated or pinpoint.  I don’t know.
Q  Is it possible, then, that some of the symptoms you’ve described Captain MacDonald dis-playing might have been the result of sedation?
A  That’s correct, with the exception of the eyes.  The people that I’ve seen die, exhibited to me the same look in the eyes, that glassy, glazed look, was my impression.
Q  How many people have you seen die?
A  Approximately a hundred a month, sir.
Q  For how many months?
A  Twelve months, sir.
Q  Where was this chest tube moved to, specifically?  Would you point out to us again?
A  The initial chest tube was in the lower right.  It was moved higher right, approximately this location.  It would be the upper lobe of the right lung.  Pointing to the area to the right of the lower pectoral muscle on your right chest is as well as I can do.
Q  Did you ever see that chest tube in the right chest just below the clavicle area?
A  I don’t remember.  I just remember it was moved from the area in the lower, to the upper area.
Q  You described the injuries to Captain MacDonald’s head as you saw them on the 17th.  Is that correct?
A  That’s correct.
Q  Were any of these injuries bleeding?
A  Yes.  As I recollect, the contusion on the left forehead looked as if it had been bleeding.
Q  You’ve described those contused areas of the forehead as appearing to be horns.  De-scribe that a little bit more specifically for us?
A  When I looked at him, there appeared to be lumps on his head and they seemed to be the formation of small horns.  I don’t know why it struck me this--I grew up on a farm and raising cattle, I noticed the same little lumps, so thereafter, it struck me that they looked like small immature horns.
Q  Now how far in inches or centimeters were these lumps raised?  Do you know?
A  They were knobs--they were just--obviously raised, appeared to be small, little horns, contusions, lumps.
Q  How close did you get to Captain MacDonald on that day?
A  Do you mean in the room, sir?
Q  Yes.  Physically how close?
A  I came to his bedside prior to leaving, on the left side.
Q  Where was it when you first noticed these horns, or contusions?
A  When I first came in the room, I was on the--by the left side.  I came up almost to his side and then I walked to the foot of the bed.
Q  And at what point did you first notice these lumps?
A  When I first walked into the door and came up to his bedside.  He was not aware I was in the room.  That’s why I went to the foot of the bed, so he could see me.
Q  Was there blood on the injury on the right side of the head?
A  Not as I remember.
Q  Could you describe the hair of that injury, did you describe it as matted?
A  That was the one contusion I thought I saw on the back portion of the head.  That was not the front.
Q  You thought you saw it?  Did you see it or didn’t you?
A  Yes, I did see it, but I could not tell because the hair was matted, whether it was an ac-tual bump or whether it was just matted hair.  It appeared to be a lump with matted hair.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald participate in this drug seminar which was held before the 6th Spe-cial Forces Group?
A  No, he did not.  Captain Easton took it upon himself to give the lectures himself, so as to impart the position of a group surgeon, of authority, so that people would lend a little bit of credibility to this program.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald’s name come up during this seminar?
A  No, it did not.
Q  Did anyone besides the Chaplain mention this lack of doctor-patient privilege during that seminar?
A  Not during that seminar.
Q  Did any of the people--well, do you know who these people were that Captain MacDonald was counseling?
A  At one time I knew almost every patient.
Q  How many were there?
A  In one given day, approximately 4 patients a day.
Q  How many does that total?
A  I must qualify my answer.  By people ETS and normal turnover and returnees, I believe ap-proximately 20 in our group and 2 PSYOPS were being counseled.
Q  To your knowledge, did any of these 20 people ever threaten Captain MacDonald?
A  I knew of only one individual who was very mad when he came out of Captain MacDonald’s office.
Q  But I’m asking if any of them ever threatened him?  
A  I was never present during counseling.  I do not know.
Q  Did any of them ever in your presence or to you threaten him?
A  No, they did not.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to.  It’s a court-martial offense.  I move to strike the question and the answer.

CPT SOMERS:  I think the issue is entirely relevant and admissible.  It certainly bears on this question of--that’s being raised as to whether any of these people might have had a motive or displayed a motive.

MR. SEGAL:  It is ridiculous in the extreme to ask the witness whether some enlisted man threatened to do bodily harm to another officer and to make that statement to another offi-cer.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.

CPT SOMERS:  I think the question was already answered.

CPT BEALE:  Right.

Q  What is your present personal relationship with Captain MacDonald?  Is he your friend?
A  He is my friend and he is still my doctor.
Q  Would you describe the degree of friendship?  Is he a close friend?
A  I consider him to be a close friend.
Q  Has Captain MacDonald ever made any display of emotions in your presence?
A  He--

MR. SEGAL:  That’s objected to, the form of the question.  They include laughing, crying, smiling, other things, which I don’t think is what the government intends here.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase it, Captain Somers.

Q  Did he ever make any display of anger or temper in your presence?
A  I’ve never seen him angry.
Q  Would you say that he hangs on to his emotions pretty well?
A  Yes, he does.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, can you please speed up this questioning process?

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I do have some questions on redirect, sir.  

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald’s reaction under emotional pressure or stress?
A  Captain MacDonald had the ability to compose himself to the point where he rarely ever shared anger or one-sided emotions, to his benefit.  In other words, he never went to ex-tremes.  He would not share extreme emotions on either end with anyone.
Q  Did you have occasion to be with Captain MacDonald on a situation on June 11, 1970?
A  I was his escort officer that day.
Q  And did something happen that day which you believe was an indication of his responses, his reaction to stress or pressure?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  He’s elicited the answer he wants, as to the stability of the accused.

MR. SEGAL:  I think a real--I’d be glad to have the witness excused and make an offer of proof, if you think it’s necessary.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.  You may proceed.

Q  Captain Williams, would you be good enough to describe to the investigating officer, the episode that you had occur which you referred to on June 11, 1970.
A  That day I was his escort officer.  I reported a little earlier than usual because I was re-quested by Captain MacDonald to be present at his BOQ earlier.  When I arrived at approxi-mately 7-7:30, I was informed by the MP, who was stationed in front of his door that today was going to be an unusual day and I asked him what was going to happen.  He said, “They’re going to take hair samples today and I heard that they’re going to bring an MP ap-prehension team.”  I was asking the MP hypothetical questions as to how to protect myself and fully protect Captain MacDonald, according to my orders.  The MP would not tell me any-thing, so I called Captain Douthat, who was at General Tolsen’s office, who asked me to in-form the MPs or anyone who came to see Captain Mac, please hold off until the lawyers got there, because they were asking for a continuance.  I agreed.  He said he would be there in approximately ten minutes.  That was 8:30.  At 8:50, Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory, CID investiga-tors, came into the BOQ and came toward me.  Since I knew them before, I was friendly and was making conversation with them.
Q  Excuse me.  Were there any other persons who came there with those two investigators at the time?
A  Those were the only two people that came inside the BOQ.  They came up and they said--excuse me.  I was inside the room.  They knocked at the door, I answered the door.  They said, “Is Captain MacDonald in?”  And I said, “Yes, he is.”  They said, “Let’s go.”  I asked them where and they said, “you know, we’re going to take him to Womack, we’re going to get hair samples.  We’re going to take him.”  I read them my directives from Colonel Kane that stated that there was no exception, that those people on the access roster, who would have access to Captain MacDonald and I informed them that the lawyers called and said to please wait, they will be there at 0900, and the fact that--was that I could not change my stand, according to my orders, unless they were changed by Colonel Kane.
Q  Were either of those gentlemen on the access list at that time?
A  No, they were not.
Q  What happened ultimately in that episode?
A  They went and made a call and as they came back, they said, “We realize that we’re tak-ing Captain MacDonald under your protest, but we’re going to take him.”  At that time I backed into the door.  I reaffirmed my orders, reading it to them again.  As they came close to me, Mr. Shaw said, “Don’t you realize you’re in serious trouble?” They came toward me, Mr. Shaw got right in my face.  At that time the lawyers walked in and I said, “There they are.”  They turned around and Captain Douthat informed them as to what happened and they left.
Q  Now during this entire period of time you were having these confrontations with Mr. Ivory and Mr. Shaw and this discussion with the MPs, how did Captain MacDonald respond to all these things that were being advised to you and being said in his presence as to the at-tempts to cut his hair on that particular day?
A  He was very calm.  We discussed it.  Of course, he was concerned about it because he indicated to me that he thought this was a breach of his rights, but he was composed, he was calm, but a little put out.
Q  Did he show anger?
A  Not exactly anger.  He was just put out by being--the inconvenience.
Q  Did he offer any way, did he indicate any way, attempt to resist the CID agents or do any physical action against them?
A  No.  We had discussed this prior, at least a week before then, he was not going to resist.
Q  Now the government raised some questions on cross-examination about your observations of persons who appeared to be about to die of a serious injury.  Did you serve in a combat assignment?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What was your combat assignment?
A  I was a medical platoon leader, in addition to a field medic assistant in a field medical com-pany of an air mobile division, with medevac.
Q  I observe that on your chest you have the Purple Heart.  Does that indicate that you yourself have personal experience with injuries?
A  My company was a hundred percent destroyed.
Q  Did you yourself have serious injuries, Captain Williams?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you receive services of medical personnel and treatment?
A  Yes, I did, sir.
Q  Based upon your own observations and knowledge of what happened to yourself and the observations you’ve made of various persons who were treated that you were with, did you form some opinion as to Captain MacDonald’s condition as to sedation, as you saw him on the day of the 17th?
A  The primary thought in my mind was he was dying, after which I realized that he’s come out of surgery.
Q  Did you form some opinion as to whether he, in any way, seemed to you to be a person who had received sedatives and was coming wake or what was the opinion that you formed?
A  That he had just come out of surgery.
Q  Did you form an opinion as to whether he had received sedatives?
A  I assumed he had.
Q  Now you also said that Captain MacDonald had been characterized by some of the men as being a “fink.”  Do you believe that was an accurate characterization of the kind of man and officer Captain MacDonald was?
A  Absolutely not.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all I have.  Any re-cross?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Now this incident when Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory came to the BOQ room, how long did that incident last?
A  From 0850 to 0900, ten minutes, sir.
Q  And at this time, we’re talking about a conversation between you and the two CID agents.  Is that correct?
A  That’s correct.
Q  You were pretty well bound up in that confrontation weren’t you?
A  That’s correct.
Q  How did you have occasion to be observing Captain MacDonald, in that case?
A  I observed him immediately after the CID agents left.
Q  Oh, immediately afterwards?
A  That’s correct.
Q  But not during?
A  Not during.

CPT SOMERS:  I now then request that all testimony regarding that incident be stricken as irrelevant.

MR. SEGAL:  May I suggest that the government hardly developed where Captain MacDonald was physically located and where Captain Williams was physically located.  He has not indi-cated where he was not in the purview, in the area where Captain Williams was, necessarily.
I wouldn’t expect him to observe every moment, to be aware of what the man was doing and reacting.  One is quite obviously aware that I could be talking to Colonel Rock, as I am now, sir, and still be aware of what Captain Douthat on my right and beneath me is doing, without necessarily saying I am looking at him.  I think until the government establishes those where-abouts and those locations, the motion is premature and out of order.  I think the witness has stated that he did not observe Captain MacDonald during the period of his confronta-tions.  I don’t think it could be put any better than that.

CPT Rock:  Captain Williams, can you more fully explain your answer of “no”?  I think I recall during part of your testimony, you were in and out of the room?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  During that time--

COL ROCK:  During that period, do you mean that absolutely “no,” you did not observe him at all or any of his reactions?  Can you elucidate at all on your answer?

WITNESS:  Prior to going out, I observed where he was at.  When I went outside, I then shut the door.  At one time, when they went to make the phone call, I checked again to make sure he was there and he was there.  At that time, this in my opinion of his emotional state then--what he looked like then.  I shut the door.  I knew where he was at.

COL ROCK:  You just then glanced at him as you looked into the room?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I’d like to say, sir, with the--regard to the question, while I don’t pretend to be an expert, I don’t think it requires expertise to indicate that signs of stress or emotional strain do not necessarily disappear instantaneously, particular in view of the--I think--some-what traumatic circumstances, and I think Captain Williams did testify on direct examination, of course, that he went immediately back into the room with Captain MacDonald, was en-gaged in conversation.  I think it’s further implied that that is also a part of the observations that he made.

COL ROCK:  Captain Williams, do you feel if somebody comes to get a piece of your hair, this would be a stressful situation?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You do.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your motion to strike all the previous testimony relative to this is denied.  You may continue questioning, if you desire.

COL ROCK:  I have a couple of questions, if you have no further questions.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions at this time, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you have anything, Mr. Segal?

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir.

Questions by COL ROCK:
Q  Captain Williams, did you report to Captain MacDonald that you had heard second-hand that he was considered a “fink”?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was his reaction to your statement?
A  It was just a joke, sir, it was in passing.  Wasn’t even considered.
Q  Did you personally ever hear anyone say that you--that they considered him a fink?
A  No, sir.  Only in generalities.
Q  What do you mean, only in generalities?  Did you ever hear in general say something similar to that to you?
A  Yes, sir.  It was brought out during a discussion our medical MOS training, that it was hard
--well, I got this--not exactly--
Q  Did anyone ever tell you that they thought that he was a fink or anything like that?
A  No, sir, not Captain MacDonald.
Q  In other words, it was hearsay.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you say that Captain MacDonald bottles up his emotions?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what do you mean when you say he bottles up his emotions?
A  I think he keeps sorrow and extreme happiness to himself.  He, in my relationship with him, working relationship, he demanded perfection.  In all the sections, he took full responsibility for the bad and the good and he would not show excessive emotions either way.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  In regard to the question put to you, Captain, did Captain MacDonald appear to you to be a person who is hiding his true emotions or hiding his true feelings?
A  No, his true feeling he showed, except any excesses.  Any anger, any extreme happiness.
That was the only time he guarded it.
Q  Did he appear to be a person who was holding back any of his emotions that were under pressure or he was not one to reveal to others how he felt about certain facts and situations in which he was involved?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to the form of that question.

COL ROCK:  Could you rephrase that question to make it a simpler, please.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, I’d be glad to.

Q  Have you ever had occasion, Captain Williams, to know people who you believe were not giving of their emotions, but gave signs of having strong emotional feelings beneath the sur-face?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald appear to you to be that sort of person, who was holding back his emotions, but would not show the signs of them under pressure?
A  Exactly.
Q  So was he the kind of person who was hiding his emotions from you?
A  He did not try to hide emotions, because hiding itself infers that there was a deliberate attempt to give you some sort of indication that he had it.  He never showed it in the first place.
Q  You are referring to what?
A  Extreme anger and extreme happiness.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all.  Thank you very much.

CPT SOMERS:  No questions.

COL ROCK:  Captain Williams, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you under-stand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, subject to recall.

(Captain Williams withdrew from the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 1330 this afternoon.

(The hearing recessed at 1110 hours, 11 August 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 11 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those persons who were in attendance at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Is counsel for the ac-cused prepared with the next witness?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, and I would like to take a moment to advise the investigating officer of the timetable, for the completion of the defense testimony.  At the satisfactory rate we are now moving, sir, I anticipate that we finish all of the defense testimony, at least that known of at this moment, by noon recess on Thursday.  I would, in the interest of economy, sir, suggest that perhaps if the government intends to put in any rebuttal witnesses as opposed to documentations of reports, that perhaps the government might be prepared to do so, but we could economically use the rest of this week to the extent that we could avoid overlap-ping very much into next week, if at all.  That would be on the one mentioned condition.  I think it would expedite the objective of the investigation.

COL ROCK:  Does the government have any answer to that?  I specifically requested informa-tion relative to the attempt yesterday to introduce two documents and their entry required the attendance of certain CID Agents, in order that we might discuss the document with them.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, with respect to the CID Agents, two of them have been available to the defense since yesterday and two more will become available to the defense tomorrow and at that point they will have all been made available to the defense.

COL ROCK:  Does the interview of those people include your target time of noon Thursday?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.  We assume that we will have seen them.  We will be talking to two of the investigators tonight after we adjourn and we hope to speak to the other investigators tomorrow evening, so that if he is required, we think we could get them in on Thursday morn-ing’s schedule.

COL ROCK:  What would counsel for the government foresee after the Thursday noon target that’s been estimated?

CPT SOMERS:  Well, of course, it’s difficult to say.  At this point, what may be developed in the defense case that we may need to rebut, but we are currently aware there are some rebuttal witnesses who would be available and might be able to testify then.  There will be, I think, at least one or two who will not be readily available at the end of this week.  And we’ll also, of course, request that the psychiatric evaluations be done next week.  I think, per-haps, the possibility that one of those psychiatrists may testify--well, it’s not that; I’m cer-tain there will be a written report.  So that I don’t foresee any way for us to finish this week.  I can say that there may be several--certainly are, some government rebuttal wit-nesses who would be available and could be used at the end of this week, but we will not fin-ish.

COL ROCK:  Well, I think we all know where we stand now.  Certainly the psychiatric exami-nation is something that I desire and I think we all recognize that post-examination, we’ll have to have a session reference that.  Are you now prepared with the next witness?

Segal: Yes, sir, we’re ready to proceed.  Sergeant Violetti, please.

(MSG Leo J. Violetti was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as fol-lows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Sergeant Violetti, will you state your full name and rank, please, for the record?
A  Leo J. Violetti, Master Sergeant.
Q  What is your organization?
A  Medical section, 6th Special Forces Group.
Q  Where are you stationed?
A  Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  Sergeant Violetti, may I ask how long you’ve been a member of the armed forces of the United States?
A  Nineteen years.
Q  And are you assigned to the medical aid work, medical corps work?
A  About 16 years, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to come in contact with or know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When did you first come in contact with Captain MacDonald?
A  I believe last August.
Q  Where did you come in contact with him?
A  Working for Captain MacDonald when he was Group surgeon, at the surgeon’s office as his head NCOIC, 3d Special Forces.
Q  How long had you been with the 3d Special Forces prior to Captain MacDonald’s assign-ment to that organization?
A  About a year and a half.
Q  And when did the--well, when the 3d Special Forces was disbanded later on in 1969, to what unit did you transfer?
A  I was reassigned to the 6th Special Forces Group.
Q  And did you continue to have contact with Captain MacDonald in that new organization?
A  Yes, sir.  I was still the NCOIC of the medical section, but he was preventive medicine of-ficer.
Q  During the period of time from last summer to February 17, 1970, how often would you say you had occasion to work with Captain MacDonald and see him?
A  It was daily contact, because I was his chief NCOIC.
Q  Would you say these contacts with him were frequent and numerous contacts?
A  We worked together about all day.
Q  During your 16 years in medical work, have you had occasion to work with other group surgeons and other medical personnel, all professional, that is, doctors?
A  Yes, sir.  Numerous doctors.
Q  Based on your observation of the various doctors that you have worked with in the past and your observation of Captain MacDonald, how would you rate Captain MacDonald, as an officer, a Medical Corps Officer?
A  I think he’s above average for a medical corps officer, group surgeon.
Q  And what, if anything, led to that conclusion about his qualities as a Medical Corps Offi-cer?
A  I think it was his motivation to get the job done and his methods.
Q  Can you give us any specific instances of things that you observed him do and follow through on these particular lines?
A  Well, when he assigned as group surgeon, he was new to the job but he was willing to learn and improve the office and the group as a whole.  He went out of his way to find things that he should be doing as the group surgeon.
Q  Were there any specific programs that he was involved with that you recognized to be in-dicative of his initiative as an officer?
A  Well, we started revamping the office, writing new SOP to improve ourselves, and then he worked on the overweight reduction program, completely revamped that to where it was much better than it was before.  The training program was greatly improved.
Q  Have you served in combat areas in the course of your service in the Army?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where have you served, Sergeant?
A  In Korea and Vietnam.
Q  Would you want to serve with in combat with Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, I would.
Q  In Mid-January 1970, did you have occasion to participate or be present at a command lecture or discussion involving drug abuse for men in Special Forces units?
A  Yes.  6th Special Forces Group had a lecture.
Q  And was that in the middle of January 1970?
A  I believe it was January.
Q  And did you attend that lecture?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall the persons or the types of persons who participated in the running of that lecture?
A  Pat Reese from the Fayetteville Observer, Captain Easton, our Group Surgeon of the 6th, and our Chaplain.
Q  During the course of this lecture, did any person make any statement about what was privileged in enlisted personnel discussing drug abuse with medical personnel or other people?
A  The Chaplain made reference, or advised the audience that these people would have priv-ileged information with the Chaplain only.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross examine.

CPT SOMERS:  No questions.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may go into an area, sir, it’s not covered before, but I think may be of some interest to the investigating officer.  During the period of time that you worked with Captain MacDonald, did you have occasion to learn whether any agents of the Criminal Investigation Division or the Army Provost Marshal investigators came to discuss with him any matters per-taining to that area of his assignment?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  It goes back into an area which we’ve already had a ruling on.

MR. SEGAL:  I believe that the ruling previously, sir, permitted Captain Williams to indicate whether or not, to his knowledge, Captain MacDonald was in contact with criminal investiga-tors in the Army in relation to the drug abuse program, in relation to this lecture in mid-Janu-ary.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, of course, I could also object that there was no cross-examination and so there is nothing to redirect on, but I stand on my objection as it is.

CPT BEALE:  As it stands, it’s overruled.

MR. SEGAL:  Sergeant Violetti, my question was, during the period of time you worked with Captain MacDonald, did you observe or become aware that he was meeting with and having interviews with CID investigators or provost marshal investigators?

A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever receive any phone calls from any persons who identified themselves as pro-vost marshal or CID investigators, who sought appointments to meet with and discuss mat-ters with Captain MacDonald?

CPT SOMERS:  Object to that.  That’s totally leading.

MR. SEGAL:  I would suggest that this is an appropriate witness, as a Sergeant in Captain MacDonald’s section, to advise whether such calls might have come which were intended for Captain MacDonald, which he may or may not have received.

CPT SOMERS:  Then he can be asked in a way in which it is not leading?

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase your question.

MR. SEGAL:  Did you, in your function working with Captain MacDonald, have occasion to re-ceive phone calls which were--which requested to speak or have contact with Captain Mac-Donald?

A  Personal phone calls for Captain MacDonald?
Q  Business phone calls.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  At any time during the period that you worked for Captain MacDonald, did you receive any such calls for him from persons who were identified as CID or Provost Marshal investigators?
A  No, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  That’s all the questions I have.

CPT SOMERS:  No questions.

MR. SEGAL:  You may be excused, Sergeant.

COL ROCK:  Sergeant Violetti, have you had occasion to talk to any of the young soldiers in the 6th Group whom you suspected were either drug addicts or were concerned about be-coming drug addicts?

WITNESS:  No, sir, no contact.

COL ROCK:  That’s not part of your job?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  Mine is purely administrative NCOIC of the medical section.

COL ROCK:  I see.  Have you ever had occasion to have any bull sessions with the enlisted medics of your unit and ever heard any of them describe Captain MacDonald as a “fink”?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Sergeant Violetti, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no persons other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you under-stand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, subject to recall.

(Witness departed the room.)

1 Note from Christina Masewicz:  I believe the witness misspoke, and is actually referring to Dudley Warner.

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