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Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970 - Volume 6
Specialist 4 Craig Chamberlain (CID Lab) and Miss Pamela Kalin (Baby-sitter)

(The hearing reopened at 1515 hours, 13 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that the parties that were present at the break are apparently in the hearing room with addition of Captain Thompson, for the government.  Is counsel for the government ready to proceed with the next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir; however, prior to that we have one matter we'd like to take up.  At this time the government would like to present an offer of proof as to the blood types of the MacDonald family.  We are going to present evidence subsequent to this in a more formal manner as to these blood types, but it might be meaningful to have this information now before we bring the next witness in who is going to testify as to blood types.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no objection.

CPT SOMERS:  We would offer then that the blood type of Kimberly MacDonald is International Blood Group Type AB positive; that the blood type of Kristen MacDonald is of the International Blood Group O RH negative; that the blood type of Colette MacDonald is of the International Blood Group Type A RH positive; that the blood type of Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald is of the International Blood Group Type B.
    The government calls Specialist Four Craig Chamberlain.

(Specialist Four Craig Stanley Chamberlain was called as witness by the government, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you state your full name?
A  Craig Stanley Chamberlain.
Q  Your grade?
A  Specialist Fourth Class.
Q  Your organization?
A  United States Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory.
Q  Your station?
A  Fort Gordon, Georgia.
Q  And your armed force?
A  United States Army.
Q  What is your duty position?
A  I'm a chemist at the criminal investigation laboratory, sir.
Q  What is your former education?
A  Sir, I have a Bachelor of Science degree from Sacramento State College in chemistry; also eight units of graduate work at the same institution.
Q  Have you received any training in chemistry in the Army?
A  Yes, sir, I've completed a six-month intensive training program at the criminal investigation laboratory at Fort Gordon, Georgia in identification of marijuana, dangerous drugs, and narcotics, and also blood analysis.
Q  What do your duties consist of now at the laboratory?
A  Sir, I analyze exhibits given or sent to me by criminal investigators.  Also I collect evidence occasionally.  This is marijuana, dangerous drugs, narcotics and blood cases also.
Q  And how long have you been doing this?
A  I've been at the lab since the 1st of September and I believe I started working cases about three months since I got there and I'm still working cases now.

CPT SOMERS:  Does the defense care to examine?

MR. EISMAN:  Just briefly.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Specialist Chamberlain, how many units at Sacramento State dealt with blood analysis?
A  None, sir.
Q  And when did you complete the six months training in the Army?
A  The 20th of March.
Q  Of this year?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How much of that six months dealt with the analysis of blood?
A  Approximately two months, sir.
Q  And when did you complete that?
A  In early January.
Q  Of this year?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is this the first matter you have worked regarding blood stains after you completed that course?
A  No, sir, it was not.
Q  How many other matters have you worked on?
A  I've worked one case previously, plus many training cases.
Q  So this would be your second case.  Is that correct?
A  My second blood case, yes, sir.
Q  And what case or what tests were you trained on during that period to perform on blood?
A  The benzidine test.

COL ROCK:  Would you spell the names of any of these technical words that you use, please?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.  Do you mind if I write them down, sir, so I will make sure that they are correct?

COL ROCK: Certainly.

WITNESS: The benzidine test, b-e-n-z-i-d-i-n-e.  The anti-human precipitan test; precipitan,
p-r-e-c-i-p-i-t-a-n.  The crust test.  Absorption elution, elution, e-l-u-t-i-t-i-o-n; and absorption inhibition.

Q  These are the five tests you ran?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now which of these tests is reference to blood typing?
A  Three of the tests.  The crust, the absorption elution and absorption inhibition.
Q  And the other two are for what?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  At this point the witness is offered to the defense to go into his qualifications.  He's going into the testimony of the witness.

MR. EISMAN:  I am not questioning his testimony.  I am trying to get what test he's able to perform in giving his expert testimony, whether or not he is qualified as an expert in the field which he is being called for.

CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled.

Q  What does the benzidine test regard?
A  The benzidine test determines if blood may be present.
Q  And the other test?  The final test, anti-human precipitan?
A The anti-human precipitan test determines if a substance is or is not human blood.
Q  Are there other tests which you used in this case?
A  No, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions of this witness at this time regarding qualifications.

CPT SOMERS:  I have one; I'm not sure this was made clear.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  What was your graduate work done in?
A  It was done in chemistry, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time the government offers this witness as an expert chemist in the field of blood analysis.

MR. EISMAN:  I would merely state that since this man only had two months of training regarding blood, and that this is only the second case he worked on, that the investigating officer consider this in determining what weight to be placed upon it--the testimony of this particular expert.

COL ROCK:  As in all matters, such judgment will be noted.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Specialist, I show you now Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9 and ask for you to look at them, please?

(Witness did as directed.)

Q  Did you assist in the work done on these reports?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When did this case first come to your attention?
A  Approximately six o'clock on the morning of the 17th of February of this year.
Q  And how did it come to your attention?
A  I was called by the commanding officer of the laboratory by telephone.
Q  And what did he require of you?
A  He told me to come to the laboratory and be prepared to go on a field case.
Q  And did you go on a field case?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did you go?
A  I came here to Fort Bragg.
Q  And when was that that you came to Fort Bragg?
A  On the 17th of February of this year.
Q  Do you have any idea what time you arrived?
A  May I refer to my notes to refresh my memory?
Q  If you feel it necessary.
A  We arrived at the airport here at eleven o'clock.
Q  On what date?
A  That was the 17th of February.
Q  Where did you go from the airport?
A  We were taken from the airport to, I believe, 544 Castle Drive, Fort Bragg.
Q  And did you perform some function at 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was that function?
A  I was taken into the house there and told about the circumstances, and then after helped in the processing of the crime scene.
Q  And did you help in the processing of the crime scene?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you work with anyone?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  With whom did you work?
A  At all times I worked with Mr. Robert Shaw.
Q  Who is he?
A  He is a criminal investigator stationed here at Fort Bragg.
Q  Now what were you doing in that house, actually physically doing?
A  I was looking for and collecting possible blood stains, as well as fibers, general debris and anything that we thought might have been evidential value.
Q  Now what would be a method of collecting say a blood stain on a wall?
A  If possible, we remove a portion of the wall, place it in a labeled vial.
Q  I see.  And did you do this?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long did you work gathering evidence there?
A  Approximately five days.
Q  And what was done with the evidence when it was all collected?
A  It was packed up and put on a plane on which I was aboard, and taken by the plane back to the criminal investigation laboratory.
Q  And did you participate in the work that was done there?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Specifically, did you participate in the typing of blood from the exhibits?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Now explain for us, please, the process you go through to take an unknown sample and determine the blood type, if it is blood.
A  Just to determine the blood type?
Q  Well, explain, if you will, from the beginning, what tests you administer.
A  First we perform the benzidine test.
Q  Would you explain just a little bit about how that works?
A  Yes, sir.  The benzidine test--you take a regular swab, cotton swab, place a drop or two of saline on it, lightly touch the area you are examining to the swab, add a 10% solution of benzidine and glacial acetic acid.
Q  If you would, please, could you spell that acid that you just spoke of?
A  Yes, sir.  That's glacial acetic acid, g-l-a-c-i-a-l, acetic, a-c-e-t-i-c.
Q  Go on.
A  Then after waiting approximately a minute, add one to two drops of hydrogen chloride to this.  If blood is present a dark blue color will show up on the swab.
Q  I see.  And what is your next step in the process?
A  The next step in the analysis of blood stains is to perform the anti-human precipitan test.
Q  And please, just briefly, what does that consist of?
A  One takes a small portion of the suspected stain, dissolves it in a small amount of saline solution, and then places some anti-human precipitan serum in a small test tube.  Upon this, one places the saline solution carefully so that two distinct layers are formed.  In five to ten minutes, if blood is present, a white ring forms at the interface of the two solutions.
Q  Now what do you mean by interface?
A  You have your anti-human precipitan serum; this is placed in the bottom of the test tube.
The saline layer with the suspected blood sample, dissolved, is carefully placed on top of this.
So you have two distinct layers, which are separated by a line.
Q  The line--is that what you refer to as the interface?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What is your next step?
A  Then we do the crust test.

COL ROCK:  From that white line at the interface, how do you determine whether it is human or animal blood?

WITNESS: Sir, if there is a white line or a precipitate it is human blood.

COL ROCK:  Okay, continue.

A  We then proceed to the crust test.  In the crust test you take a small amount of the material, place it on a glass slide and add about 2% concentration of red blood cells to this.
This is done several times with AB and O red blood cells.  One then waits approximately fifteen minutes and examines the slide through a high powered microscope for agglutination.
Q  Would you spell that please?
A  Agglutination, a-g-g-l-u-t-i-n-a-t-i-o-n.  And then we record the results.
Q  And this is which test?
A  This the crust tests.
Q  And what does the results tell you?
A  The crust tells us which agglutinins or anti-bodies may be present in the sample or actually are in the sample, which gives you an indication of blood type.

COL ROCK:  Is that same system used in the Army hospitals just to type somebody's blood when he first comes in the service?

WITNESS: No, sir, not exactly, because the army hospitals test fresh blood, wet blood.  We are talking about dried blood.

COL ROCK:  I see.

Q  And is there yet another test that you perform after the crust test?
A  Yes, sir, on dried blood stains we next perform the absorption elution test.
Q  And again, if you would, just basically explain that, please.
A  Yes, sir.  One takes a portion of the material upon which the suspected--the blood stain is found; takes approximately fibers, places it in a small glass well, add a drop of anti-serum to this  and teases the fiber apart with a needle.  Then you will allow the fiber to sit in the solution for approximately one hour.  Then you wash the fibers, wash the anti-serum off the fiber with cold saline, using a vacuum pump.  Then the fiber is transferred to another glass well and approximately two drops of ½% saline red blood cells solution of the same type as the anti-serum is added and this placed in an oven at approximately 52 degrees for ten min-utes.  Then the sample is taken out of the oven, placed on a mechanical shaker and shook gently for approximately fifteen minutes and allowed to stand for approximately two hours.
Then observed through a high powered microscope for agglutination.  The results are then recorded.
Q  Now these test that determine the blood type, could you possibly tell us what the theory is that works behind this?
A  Yes, sir.  One can think of dried blood as composed of two portions, the red blood cells and also the antibodies or agglutinates that may still be present.  If one can determine the antibodies using the crust test and also the agglutinogens or the type of red blood cells that is present, one knows what the blood type is.
Q  I see.  Is that the normal sequence of tests that you use?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you normally use any other test?
A  No, sir.
Q  Is it possible, using this method, to have a mixed batch of blood, that is to have perhaps two different types of blood present on the same stain and be able to detect this?
A  Yes, sir, we surely would detect it, assuming that there was no decomposition of the blood stain.
Q  How are these particular exhibits treated with respect to decomposing possibilities?
A  The exhibits that were collected in this case?
Q  Yes.
A  Well.  If, as I said before, if we perform both the crust test and the absorption elution, we find out if there has been any decomposition since the type of antibodies and the type of agglutinogens or red blood cells are complimentary; that is if you have an A cell then you must have a B antibody or it is type A.
Q  Now on a physical level, if these specimens were collected and transferred to the laboratory, how would they be treated to protect them?
A  Well, if a stain had been wet at the scene, it was first dried, and then placed in a vial.  They are protected from sunlight.  They were kept at room temperature.
Q  And why these precautions?
A  Well, sunlight may tend to decompose the antibodies in the stain.
Q  You were protecting against decomposition.  Is that it?
A  Yes.
Q  Now in some of the exhibits which were tested, we find that your report has used the word “indicated.”  I draw your attention to, for instance,--

COL ROCK:  Which exhibit, counselor?

Q  --to for instance, paragraph 13 on page 12 of Government Exhibit 7.  You will find the sentence which says, “Further examinations indicated same to be the International Blood Type AB.”  Would you tell us what this word “indicate” means in this context?
A  Well, indicated means that we have found either the agglutinogens or antibodies or the agglutinins, but not both, not so that they'd complement one another, so we can't absolutely say that it is this blood type although we are fairly certain it is.
Q  Well, can you give us any idea mathematically what your percentage of certainty is?  Is it more than 50%?
A  Oh, yes, sir, much more so.  We say indicated because there may be possible decomposition.  However, in this case since the laboratory collected it, the specimens most likely was not significant decomposition.  I would say it is above 90%.
Q  I see.  I beg the investigating officer's indulgence for one moment.

MR. EISMAN:  May I interpose an objection at this point until we clarify this item “indicated.”  I think that the witness has testified that either the agglutinates or the antibodies would not be present so that a scientific determination could not be made, and in my estimation, that would be at least a 50% change for error if either of these two items were not present.  And until we get a clarification from the witness as to how much each of these two items were contained in each of the alleged findings, we won't know whether or not it is 90% or 50% or less, and it would be highly unfair to permit this type of testimony to come in unless we have a direct clarification of each of these two items regarding blood typing.

CPT SOMERS:  The government respectfully disagrees with the defense counsel as to its figures.  The witness has been offered as an expert, he has given us his opinion as an expert as to the percentage possibility with this word “indicated”; he's told us what it means to him, and he's told us what he thinks the percentage would be, that they are correct.  The 50% figure suggested by the defense counsel is one of his own choosing.  I do not think he attempts to set himself forth as an expert in this field.

MR. EISMAN:  Just a point of clarification at this point.  The witness has said either one of the two things missing which he has described as necessary elements of blood typing.  Now if it is one or two, I think my figure of 50% could be as accurate as his figure of 90% unless it is clarified.

COL ROCK:  I'd like to ask the witness at this time in clarification of this specific point, what percent accuracy do you think that report errs in the work which you have done?  You have indicated a figure of 90% assurances, or I believe your words were perhaps over 90%.  Do you stick by this figure, or do you think it is closer to 50% accuracy?

WITNESS: I would say the actual report; its accuracy is greater than 99%.  If you will notice, in the report it says indicates the presence of Type A or Type O.  It is approximately 100% of those two things, one or the other, or it is most likely that it is the first mentioned.

COL ROCK:  Well, now let me ask another question for clarification of the point that you made.  Suppose that two people have the same type blood and it was in one sample.  Could you detect the fact that there was more than one person's blood in the sample through means of your test?

WITNESS: If they had the same International Blood Group Type, no, sir, not very likely.

COL ROCK:  When I say the same blood type, this is what I mean, the same International Blood Group Type that we have heard referred to here today.

CPT SOMERS:  If I may, sir, I think I can clarify this even more.

COL ROCK:  All right, proceed.

Q  Let me take one or two steps before I get into this.  There are paragraphs in your report such as paragraph two of Government Exhibit 7, which simply says revealed the presence of human blood of a specific type.  By percentage now, what percent sure are you when you say that?
A  If we say revealed the presence of human blood of International Blood Group Type A, we are approximately 100% sure.
Q  Now in excess of the 90% figure that you have given us, this applies to instances where you used the word indicated.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  I see.  Now to deal with this discrepancy.  Between what the defense counsel calls a 50% possibility of being correct, in which you give to be in excess of 90%, why do you say where you have indicated that you are in excess of 90% sure?  Relate this, if you can, to the likelihood of decomposition and such, factors as this.
A  Okay.  Well, sir, the crust test we perform, if there is no decomposition, will tell us what blood type we have.  It is one method of determining the blood type.  The absorption elution test, on the other hand, is an entirely different method, based on a different theory, which will also if there is no decomposition, tells us what type we have.  In other words, there is cross-referencing.  If we say that it is Type A blood, both tests would have worked and tell us the same answer.  If we say indicated, then maybe perhaps because there is not enough sample, one of the two tests does not show up, and agglutinogens or an antibody, and so on this basis since we don't have both tests, we just say it is indicated.  However, we are, in our minds, we are reasonably certain that it is the type we listed.

COL ROCK:  And by reasonably certain, do you mean 90%?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  How rapidly does blood deteriorate--let's say that it is spotted on a wall for in-stance--how rapidly does the blood deteriorate as far as your scientific appraisal of the types of blood?

WITNESS: Assuming we have enough sample to run both tests on it, if--in this room for in-stance--well, mainly we are worried about deterioration of the antibodies, the agglutinogens don't decompose very fast.  So in this room it could take several months.

COL ROCK:  Well, let us take the specific instance in the MacDonald house where there was some light available.

WITNESS: Well, I don't really believe the light is that critical a factor, since there wasn't really direct sunlight.  The shades were drawn.

COL ROCK:  What are the factors that affect the deterioration?

WITNESS: Sunlight, heat, maybe bacteria.  The chance that it didn't decompose I believe are very small.

COL ROCK: In this instance?

WITNESS: In this instance, yes, sir.

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, I believe, that legally speaking, the Article 32 officer is now satisfied with this witness' answers and therefore your objection which was interposed a while back is now overruled.  You may continue.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  I gather from your answer earlier that it took you approximately five days of work in the residence to collect everything that you wanted.  Is this correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you give us some idea what you were doing and why it took that long?
A  We had to carefully investigate the whole house, not only for blood stains, possible blood stains on the walls, the ceilings, the floors, articles of clothing, items of furniture and everything, but we also had to collect debris, hairs and fibers and so forth.  And it took approximately one day per room to this work, say 14 hours a day.
Q  Did you exercise care while you were doing this?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  Objection.  It calls for a conclusion on the part of the witness.  You have to ask the witness what he did do.

CPT BEALE: Sustained.  Do you want to rephrase your question, counselor?

CPT SOMERS:  That's all right.  I withdraw the question.  Excuse me one moment.

Q  When you gather exhibits other than blood stains, for instance in gathering such as a fiber, how was this done?
A  It was collected, probably with tweezers, put into a vial and labeled and recorded in my notes.
Q  Well, who labeled each exhibit as it was taken?
A  I did.
Q  Were they labeled as to the location from which they were taken?
A  Some were, some weren't.  However, a number was assigned to each exhibit and the location, which was also in the notes.
Q  And did the notes describe the location?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I show you again Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9.  Let me ask you first; are you the only chemist who worked on the blood typing in this case?
A  No, sir.
Q  How many others worked on this blood typing?
A  I believe four others, three or four.
Q  Did some of these others have more experience than you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now with reference to Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, did you help to prepare these exhibits?
A  The reports, sir?
Q  The reports themselves.
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Now then in rendering of your reports, do they state the conclusions you reached?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And are these statements accurate with respect to the conclusions you reached?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  Well, I am going to object if this witness is being offered as an expert as far as what other people did.  Naturally he can't tell what other people did or what other people found.  He can only tell what he did or what he found.  Unless the people who actually performed the tests tell us what they did, this witness is not competent to say what occurred in somebody else's laboratory.  Therefore I'd object to him testifying as to any other person's conclusions because he would not be competent to do so.

CPT SOMERS:  If I may, sir, I am only offering his testimony as to his own conclusions.

CPT BEALE: Can you be more specific in these reports which of these conclusions was Specialist Chamberlain?

CPT SOMERS:  We can do that if the investigating officer wishes.  It is a long list.  This witness is here as one of a class of witnesses who worked on this report.  All of the witnesses who could have testified with respect to the blood in this case were not available to be brought here and could not have been brought here to testify for an Article 32.  We brought this witness as one of the chemists who worked on these exhibits and who did a great deal of work on these exhibits.  They all, I think he will tell us, if he is asked, used the same methods.  However, we do not purport to ask this witness whether he saw and can testify to the results of any specific exhibit that he did not personally work on.

MR. EISMAN:  As long as he's not being called to testify as to any other person's findings, I have no objections, but we have to get on the record what this witness found, which of the conclusions filed in this report are his so that the investigating officer knows what in fact this person can testify to as his own personal knowledge.  Anything else would be something that he could not; it would be purely hearsay.

CPT SOMERS:  I'd like to point out at this juncture that it is not unusual but it requires an exception to policy from the highest command, from Continental Army Command to bring this type of witness here for an Article 32 investigation.  If we could bring all these witnesses here, we would.  This one is here, however, only as a representative of a class of witnesses.  He's here to testify as to the tests which are done at the laboratory.  He can answer specifically as to accuracy and specifically as to what was done on any given exhibit only to those which he personally did.  The rest of the exhibits must stand by itself at this juncture.  And I might add that one of the reasons that this man specifically was brought here is that he is one of the chemists who collected this evidence, and therefore would be most relevant and of most interest to the investigating officer.

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, your objection is going to be overruled to the extent that the Article 32 investigating officer is considering this witness for the expertise that he has in explaining to him how these experiments are in fact conducted.  He is not considering this witness's testimony for the correctness of the experiments themselves, the results throughout it.  He is, in fact, accepting the report as a military document, and that the conclusions drawn therefore are satisfactory to him, and unless you have evidence to the contrary to show that some of these findings in here are not in fact correct, then this report will be accepted as it is.

MR. EISMAN:  Well, the problem is that this person, what this particular witness might say indicated means--of a certain blood type--might be the same testimony as far as some other expert witness is concerned.  His meaning of “indicated” might not be the same percentage, and therefore to have him testify as to what somebody else's impression of that term would be, I think unfair.

CPT SOMERS:  I think it's clear to the investigating officer that this is his definition, for what ever weight that may be.

COL ROCK:  Yes, I took it in this particular context.  However, I would like to ask one additional question of this witness at this point.  Specialist Chamberlain, in using words like “indicated,” is this standard procedure at the lab?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And to your knowledge is your assessment of 90% considered standard with the use of that word?

WITNESS: 90% isn't standard, however, I'd say it is accurate and I'd say that the other people would agree.

COL ROCK:  Continue please.

CPT SOMERS:  All right, sir.

Q  Now the tests that you have described having done yourself, are these tests standard ones used at the laboratory?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know of your own knowledge whether these tests were used by the other people who worked on this report?
A  I didn't watch the other people perform every test; however, these are the only tests that we use, and when I did see them working, these were the tests they were using.
Q  With respect to the exhibits that you collected, are the descriptions or the locations from which they were taken, which can be found in Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, are those descriptions correct?
A  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Your witness.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Are any of these tests which you used in determining blood types measure the quantity of blood found at a particular area?
A  No, sir.
Q  In your training, did you learn any specific test to test the quantity of blood, weight or volume or size of blood stain?
A  No, sir, no specific test.
Q  Can you give us a description of each and every blood stain which you yourself saw and collected?  Do you have that there in your notes?
A  I can give you an approximate description.
Q  Well, can you go ahead and give those descriptions?
A  Well, the first sample I collected, Exhibit D-1, was a small drop on the southern radiator, northeast corner of the radiator from the main bedroom.
Q  Was it on top, the side, or where was it on that radiator?
A  It was on the top, sir.
Q  Yes, what next?  By the way, before you took these stains or removed them in any way, did you take photographs of them in place?
A  Yes, sir, every stain was--the square was drawn around it with a number, my initials and it was photographed before I touched it.
Q  By whom?
A  Mr. Harold Page with the Criminal Investigation Laboratory.
Q  Do you have those photographs with you?
A  I do not have them with me.

MR. EISMAN:  Does the prosecutor have those photographs?

CPT SOMERS:  I do not.

MR. EISMAN:  Can we request of the investigating officer that he order that the laboratory at Fort Gordon produce such photographs so that we may conduct the appropriate examination of this witness?

COL ROCK:  I fail to see how these would be used in examining this specific witness.  But does counsel intend to use such photos if available?

MR. EISMAN:  I intend to question the witness as to the size of these blood stains.  I think later on in the case it will become relevant as to certain witness' testimony so far as size of blood stains, whether or not they were inordinate size as to be found in a particular room, or whether they were contamination type blood stains, and therefore unless we had the actual photographs so that the investigating officer could see these blood stains and make his own determination.  If the experts cannot say whether or not they were direct blood stains or contamination blood stains, I think that would be the best evidence to present to the inves-tigating officer, not somebody's opinion as to whether or not they were larger than they should have been.  That's what is going to come out in this case later, and I think that's one of the reasons Specialist Chamberlain is here today, is lay the foundation for such evidence.

COL ROCK:  Government, do you have any comments?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the location of these blood stains is given, and according to this witness given accurately in the laboratory reports.  The size of the blood stains he has not so testified to, and the government does not, at this time, have the pictures to which reference is made although I am sure they must exist somewhere.  The government suggests that to go through each picture of each exhibit on each page of these reports would, to say the least, slow down this procedure considerably unreasonably.  The government is opposed to that method of proceeding.  The government has not at this point put the quantity of the blood stains in issue in any way.

MR. EISMAN:  If the government will now say that the quantity of blood stains will not be an issue in this case I will withdraw my request for photographs.  But if they are not saying that, and intends it to be made later, at least we should have the opportunity to cross examine the only expert on blood types as to size and quantity of blood found, what he found, and exactly what was found where.  But if they are going to say at that point or this point the size of the blood stains or quantity or volume of blood is not an issue in this case, I withdraw the question.  But it would be unfair to let this witness go without questioning him as far as size and volume and let somebody else who is not an expert tell us about the size and volume.

CPT SOMERS:  The government has no present intention of assuring the defense that the size of the blood stains will not become an issue.  However, when they are in issue they will be described or pictures will be shown and conclusions can be drawn there from by the investigating officer himself.  The government has no present intentions of using pictures referred to in its case, but certainly does not at this point represent that it never will.  It opposes, however, the request of the defense.

MR. EISMAN:  The reason we are asking for these photographs is because we feel that these are necessary for the defense of this case.  If there is going to be someone else called later to make a description of the blood stains, without having the photographs present so that the investigating officer can see them and make his own conclusions, if there's not going to be another expert as far as blood is concerned, and some layman, so to speak, will make these conclusions, I think it would be highly prejudicial and the defense should at least have those photographs so that they could, first of all, cross-examine this witness who is offered as a blood expert, and secondly, for any other witness who tries to attempt to take the witness stand to assert that blood stains were not of or were of sufficient size or insufficient size to draw conclusions from.

CPT BEALE: Let me ask you this.  How is it that this particular witness would be able to elucidate from the meaning of the particular blood stain, of the size, of the type?  How can he clarify for this hearing just exactly what they mean?

MR. EISMAN:  He was the man who took the stains.  He has testified that he was the one who took the particular samples and I couldn't think of anybody better qualified to make the statements.  He's the one who initialed the squares that were photographed.  He's the one that took them back to the laboratory and tested them.  Who else would be better than an alleged expert on blood to testify?

CPT BEALE: But then again, the problem that Colonel Rock and myself, to be able to rule on this thing is, is that how does this matter fit into this case?  Colonel Rock is in the dark up here trying to make a determination of whether or not to make the government produce these photographs or not because he can't see right now at this stage how they are relevant or not relevant to his investigation.

MR. EISMAN:  The government has put on this portion of its case at this point regarding blood.  As I understand, this is the only person they are calling reference blood.  This is the only opportunity we will have to cross-examine regarding blood, and therefore at this point if they are going to later attempt to make some type of conclusion from this witness' testimony reference the blood and blood stains, we should at least have an adequate opportunity to examine him and the photographs regarding the objects which he took and have them before the investigating officer so if anybody comes in later to testify as to the size of blood stains, volume of blood or any conclusions like that, he will have an opportunity to present to the investigating officer these photographs, which will speak for themselves, not the conclusion or guesses of some future witness.  Since this is the man who took the stains, there will be nobody better qualified to testify as to the size since we do have photographs showing the size.  There will be no better evidence than that and I think the best evidence rule should prevail in a ruling.  If they are available; if they aren't available, I wouldn't ask for them.

CPT SOMERS:  If I may, sir,--

CPT BEALE: Just a second, Captain Somers.  Your request for production of these particular pictures at this time is denied.  You may proceed.

MR. EISMAN:  May we proceed again with the description of the blood stains which--

CPT SOMERS:  I believe I interposed an objection to that line of questioning.  The blood stains are described, the area from which they came, in the laboratory reports and we've been told by the witness that these blood stains descriptions are accurate so far as he knows insofar as he took them, and we object to the proceeding of going through each and every stain on each and every report, to have a description.

MR. EISMAN:  We have already seen, starting off with Exhibit D-1 which the witness has testified to, that the description is not an accurate description in that it does not describe the size of it and where it was located.  It merely states a red brown stain from the south radiator in the east bedroom.  It is further described from his notes, evidently, which extends upon this statement as to the exact size and where it was found, and I think we are entitled to at least find out where and what sizes these drops were that were found if he has this in his notes.  It would be perfect cross-examination of this witness.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, will the size and or the location of these particular blood stains, or drops of blood, will these in fact become an issue?

CPT SOMERS:  I expect the location of these stains could be an issue, yes, I do.  I also expect that with respect to a very few of the stains, the size may become an issue.  However, the location insofar as it will become an issue is described in these exhibits.

COL ROCK:  What, as an example of that, please?

CPT SOMERS:  Of what, sir?

COL ROCK:  Of the last one you were just talking about, where it would become an issue.  Is it elaborated upon in greater detail where it does become an issue, or may become an issue?

CPT SOMERS:  Are you referring to size or location?

COL ROCK:  I am referring to both.

CPT SOMERS:  With respect to location I believe it is adequately described in this report as to every exhibit.

COL ROCK:  This investigating will recess for twenty minutes.

( The hearing recessed at 1620 hours, 13 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1653 hours, 13 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties who were present at the close are in the hearing room with the exception of the witness and Captain Thompson.
    Captain Somers, I have considered the defense request for the production of the photographs taken of the various blood stains.  Furthermore I have noted your objections both to the production of said documents and to the defense questioning this witness concerning the size, location and quantity of stains.  You have indicated that this matter may later become an issue.  Because I am not presently aware of all the facts, and because this witness has been provided to us for only a short period of time, it my opinion that at this time you should make me aware of what particular blood stains, fibers, or other evidentiary samples, if any, might later become an issue.  Then you could provide the defense with photographs of only these particular items, and I could thereafter benefit from the witness's testimony.  By using this method we can conclude the need for the witness and release him in order to prevent unnecessary recall at a later date.  Do you have any questions on this ruling?

CPT SOMERS:  I think I understand the ruling, sir.  I do not believe that I can comply with it in the next five or ten minutes.

COL ROCK:  This is understandable.  I would suggest in view of the hour, unless counsel for the accused wishes to further question the witness at this time, that we adjourn until in the morning.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no objection at this time, sir.

COL ROCK:  Is this satisfactory, and I would assume by the morning you could give us some sort of an answer on the availability.

CPT SOMERS:  There are two comments I'd like to make, sir.  First, I will attempt to delineate any physical exhibits such as those mentioned which may become of greater importance.  However, I do not wish either now or tomorrow to bind myself to considering only those, because it is possible that in that period of time I might miss something.  Secondly, if the investigating officer will permit it, the first thing in the morning I would like to take Pamela Kalin's testimony so that we may dispose of that and permit her to leave as she is now scheduled to do so on Thursday.

COL ROCK:  I think this is appropriate, and I think it further perhaps give you more time to assemble the photographs.  I realize that you may not be able to specify exactly, but you will make a reasonable attempt, I am sure, to present us those photographs that you think may be applicable.  Does counsel for the defense have any further comments?

MR. EISMAN:  I think your ruling is fair and I have no objections to Pamela Kalin being called first thing in the morning.  That's all I have to say at this time.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be closed until tomorrow morning at 0830 hours.

(The hearing adjourned at 1657 hours, 13 July 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 0836 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that the persons in attendance at the close of the hearing yesterday are present in the hearing room, with the exception of Lieutenant Malley for counsel for the accused, and Captain Thompson, counsel for the government.
    Prior to bringing in the government witness, are there any other matters to bring to the attention of this investigating officer?

MR. EISMAN:  At this time I'd like to make a request of the investigating officer, that we have a one-day continuance for the reason that I must return my family to Philadelphia and I have pressing legal business which cannot wait past Wednesday to conclude, after discussing the matter with my office in Philadelphia.  I would be prepared, if necessary, to return Wednesday night if we continue again on Thursday, if that request is granted.

COL ROCK:  The request is granted.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you, sir.

COL ROCK:  Are there any other matters to be brought up at this time?

CPT SOMERS:  None by the government, your honor.

COL ROCK:  None by counsel--

MR. EISMAN:  None by counsel.

COL ROCK:  Will counsel for the government please proceed with the next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  The government calls Miss Pamela Kalin.

(Miss Pamela Kalin was called as a witness by the government, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Question of CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you state your full name, please?
A  Pamela Lorraine Kalin.
Q  And what is your occupation?
A  Student.
Q  What is your residence?
A  542 Castle Drive.
Q  How long have you lived at 542 Castle Drive?
A  A year and a month.
Q  Can you tell us, is 542 Castle Drive immediately adjacent to 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, it is.
Q  Have you ever been in 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  Did you know the MacDonald family that lived at 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you describe for us, please, the relationship between your bedroom and the or the residence at 544 Castle Drive?
A  It is directly over their living room.
Q  Directly over the living room of 544 Castle Drive?
A  (The witness nodded in affirmative.)
Q  When you are in your room, can you hear conversations being carried on in a normal tone in the living room below?
A  Yes, if it's quiet.
Q  Can you tell us, please, what time did you go to bed on the 16th of February 1970?
A  About 10:30.
Q  Were you--well, let me ask you this.  How did you sleep?
A  I didn't sleep very well.
Q  Were you awakened at any point during the evening?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  Would you describe for us what awakened you?
A  I was--I believe it was Captain MacDonald and he was either sort of laughing or a sobbing cry.
Q  Was this in intensity at the level of a scream or was it at a level of normal conversation, or somewhere in between?
A  Somewhere in between.
Q  Did you hear at this time anything else?
A  No.
Q  Did you hear at this time or anytime close to this time--any evidence of a scuffle, furniture being moved or screaming?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Well, what did you do when you were awakened?
A  I just woke up, heard the noise, and then I went back to sleep.
Q  Was it unusual for you to hear something from downstairs?
A  No, I'm used to hearing it.
Q  When were you next awakened?
A  At the banging of the MPs.
Q  When the MPs arrived?
A  Um-hum.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Miss Kalin, after you heard the first sound, could you--did you fall into a deeper sleep than you had before?  In other words, had you been sleeping lighter than you would have been later on in the night?
A  I don't remember.
Q  And are you awakened by all the sounds that come from the MacDonald household, or just occasionally?
A  Occasionally.
Q  Do you know approximately what time it was that you heard the laughing or sobbing?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Do you have any idea in relation to the time you heard the MPs at the door?
A  It was somewhere in between three and four.
Q  Did you hear any screaming that night?
A  Nope.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit the MacDonald household, inside the house?
A  Yes, I used to baby-sit.
Q  You used to baby-sit?
A  Um-hum.
Q  And on the times that you went there to baby-sit, did you have occasion at least at the time the MacDonalds were there, before they left, and after they returned, to observe their actions between themselves and the children?
A  Um-hum.
Q  Did you ever see the MacDonalds argue violently or abuse the children in any way?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  How would you describe the--behavior of the children?
A  They were normal children.
Q  Were either of them any discipline problem for you as you were baby-sitting?
A  No.

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this line of questioning.  It is way outside the scope of direct.  If the counsel wants to use this witness for a character witness, I suggest he call her as his own witness.

CPT BEALE: Your objection is overruled.  You may continue.

Q  Is there any incident--first of all, from what you could observe of the MacDonalds, were they a--normal happily married couple?
A  Um-hum.
Q  Did you ever see any evidence of any deep strife or problems between Mr. and Mrs. MacDonald, or between them and their children?
A  Nope.
Q  Is there anything you can recall that particularly sticks in your mind regarding Captain MacDonald and his children?  Any incidents?
A  Nope.
Q  Is there any incidents that you recall which would indicate to you that Captain MacDonald cared very deeply for his children?
A  Just like a normal father.
Q  In particular, did anything happen around Christmas that you recall, that sticks out in your mind, with regard to Captain MacDonald and his children at Christmas time?
A  I don't understand the question.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald do anything around Christmas time which you can recollect that was of particular interest of--regarding his children?  Something out of the ordinary.
A  He was buying a pony for Kim.
Q  He was buying a pony for Kim?
A  Um-hum.
Q  How did you learn--how did you learn this incident?  Was it from somebody, from Captain MacDonald or Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Captain MacDonald.
Q  He told you this fact?
A  Um-hum.
Q  And when did he tell you?
A  Sometime around Christmas.
Q  In reference to the house itself, how would you describe the--the appearance of the house?
A  It was neat.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see the pony?
A  Um-hum.
Q  When was that?
A  Sometime before Christmas, a day or two.

MR. EISMAN:  I have nothing further at this time.

CPT SOMERS:  No redirect.

COL ROCK:  Miss Kalin, how frequently did you baby-sit for the MacDonalds?

WITNESS: Since I lived next door, it was often, a lot of times.

COL ROCK:  Well, now, often, that could mean many things.  Would you say once or twice a week?

WITNESS: It might have been that.  It depends.

COL ROCK:  Well, I realize it depends on the situation.  Prior to the tragedy on the 17th of February, do you recall the last date, prior to the 17th of February--that would be earlier than the 17th of February--that you baby-sat for them?

WITNESS: It might have been that Thursday, the past Thursday.

COL ROCK:  Do you recall whether you had occasion to use a hairbrush while in their house?  I want you to think very carefully on that question.  We all realize that young ladies brush their hair, and I wonder if, by any chance, you had, ever had occasion--it is rather boring baby-sitting--to sometimes brush your hair.

WITNESS: I don't remember, but I could have.

COL ROCK:  The reason I am asking this is because certain evidence has been found in the house indicating some hair of an individual other than the persons living in the house, and I just thought that possibly since you had been in the house frequently, that you might have had occasion to brush your hair and it would be quite logical if your hair was found in the house.  So this is the only reason that I am asking the question.  And your answer is that you might have brushed your hair in the house?

(Witness nodded in the affirmative.)

COL ROCK:  Do you recall whether you have ever had occasion to be awakened by noises coming from the living room previously--that is prior to the 17th of February--were there other occasions when you may have been awakened?

WITNESS: When they had company.

COL ROCK:  When they had company.  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel?

MR. EISMAN:  I have one further question.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Do you dye your hair in any way, or was your hair lighter at the roots?
A  Um-hum, I did it about two years ago.
Q  But you haven't dyed it since two years ago?
A  No.

CPT SOMERS:  No questions.

COL ROCK:  No further questions by myself or counsel for the government.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I'd like to request that we permanently excuse this witness.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no objections.

COL ROCK:  Miss Kalin, you advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than either counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.  Do you understand this?

WITNESS: Yes, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are permanently excused.  Thank you.

(Witness departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS:  Colonel, I do have Specialist Chamberlain here prepared to testify.  I still have not received--although as I say Captain Thompson is working on it--the pictures in question.  I expect them any moment.  We can go ahead with Chamberlain for questions other than those related to the pictures until they arrive, or would you prefer to wait?

COL ROCK:  Well, I'll rule on that in just a minute.  I have two other questions regarding Miss Kalin.  If I recall correctly, counsel, the other day when you stated that there would be a delay on Miss Kalin's appearance, you indicated that it was necessary to obtain certain evidence which I assumed at the time would be presented here to the hearing.  Did you change your mind or has some other circumstance arisen?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, when we finally did get the evidence and Miss Kalin together we were not satisfied and decided not to use that evidence.

COL ROCK:  All right.  Secondly, do you have a sworn statement in this instance?

CPT SOMERS:  I do not.  To the best of my knowledge, no such statement was ever taken.

COL ROCK:  I believe it would be most logical in absence of the pictures to delay recalling Specialist Chamberlain and bringing in your third expert witness.  Is that gentlemen available?

CPT SOMERS:  I sent the sedan for him approximately fifteen minutes ago.  I presume he will be here in less than five minutes.

COL ROCK:  All right, we will take a brief recess until his appearance.

(The hearing recessed at 0854 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0912 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK: The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties present at the break are currently in the hearing room, with the addition of Captain Thompson for the government.  Will the government proceed?

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, sir, the government offers six photographs to be marked serially from the last one.

COL ROCK:  Can you assist us in identifying these for the purpose of the record so that we can--or are you able to do that at this time?

CPT BEALE: In other words, could you just tell us what particular room this rug is located in?

CPT SOMERS:  This is the master bedroom.

COL ROCK:  Number 12 is a portion of the rug in the master bedroom evidencing a rug with red-brown stains--portion of rug in master bedroom showing spots of red and brown stains, G-13.  G-14--

CPT SOMERS:  Exhibit 207B.

COL ROCK:  Exhibit 207.  G-15 is a photograph of master bedroom with view of five-drawer chest and portion of carpet.  G-16, photograph of sheet from north bedroom with dark brown stains marked Exhibit D-60NB.  G-17, photo of bath mat with red brown stains marked Exhibit D-214.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I have two more with respect to the pajama top.  I intend to put the pajama top in evidence, but I might as well go ahead and give you the pictures of it now.

COL ROCK:  Certainly.  G-18, photo of front side of--of Exhibit D-210, blue pajama top with dark brown stains.  G-19, photo of rear side of blue pajama top with dark brown stains, Exhibit D-210.  You may take these now.

CPT SOMERS:  I'd like to say at this point for the record, sir, that although I anticipate that either the size or the location of these particular exhibits may be important to this hearing.  I cannot say with any certainty that they will be the only exhibits that this is the case.  In other words, although these I expect will be, I do not wish to be tied down to these if I subsequently see some other issue.  This is as far as I see it right now.

COL ROCK:  This will be recognized.  Proceed.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time we call Specialist Chamberlain to the stand.

(Specialist Craig Chamberlain reported, was reminded of his oath, and testified as follows.)

CPT SOMERS:  Your honor, the government had tendered this witness to the defense.

COL ROCK:  I beg your pardon?  As we concluded he was the defense's.

CPT SOMERS:  Right.

COL ROCK:  Is this what you were referring to?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Specialist Chamberlain, did you have occasion to examine any stains from outside the MacDonald household?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And on what exhibit would that be found?
A  May I refresh my memory from my notes?
Q  Sure, go right ahead.
A  There was some stains outside, close to the door, on the door, and on the porch which I examined with benzidine reagent.  They were reddish-brown stains, but they proved not to be blood, so I did no further examination on those.
Q  Did anybody indicate to you that there was stains leading from the back door around the walkway out to the street?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And were these the same stains that you observed on the back porch?
A  I don't believe so, sir.  They were--they appeared to be fecal matter of some sort.
Q  What?
A  They appeared to be fecal matter of some sort.
Q  For the record would you explain what that is?  Are you referring to human waste?
A  Yes, sir.  No, sir.  Waste, I don't know if it was human or not.
Q  Would that have been from a shoe, a bare foot or what?
A  I don't know, sir.
Q  Were you able to say positively that they were not human blood?
A  Yes, sir, we collected--I collected these exhibits, took them back to the laboratory and tested them with the precipitin test.  They did not contain human blood.
Q  Do you know how long they had been at that location?
A  No, sir, I do not.
Q  Were they wet or dry?
A  They were dry.
Q  Dry?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you make any further examination of the spots or stains?
A  At the scene I performed the benzidine test.
Q  And what day was that?
A  The 18th of February.
Q  That would have been more than 24 hours after this incident.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q  What was the weather like on February 17th?
A  I really don't remember, sir.  It wasn't raining.  That's all I remember.
Q  Do you know whether it had rained the night of February 16th or the morning of February 17th?
A  No, sir, I wasn't present.
Q  Approximately how many blood stains were found in the house?  Do you have a round figure?
A  I could give you a rough estimate.  I believe 150 to 250, sir.
Q  And you found blood from how many different types of people?  How many different types of blood?
A  We found four types under the International Blood Group Typing System.
Q  Now in reference to this Exhibit D-207, could you take your notes out please?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  First, let me show you a photograph and ask you first of all, whether that's referred to as D-207.  You have three D-207's.  What would that reference be in your laboratory report?
A  This would be D-207B.
Q  D-207B?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now of these could you please refer to your records now as far as this exhibit is concerned?  Would you turn to Exhibit D-207B in your records?  I want to ask you some questions.
A  I didn't conduct--another laboratory technician examined this particular exhibit.  Do you wish me to look at his records?
Q  Yes, that's what I am asking you.  In reference to this particular exhibit, what does the records say regarding this stain here?  What size are they?

CPT SOMERS:  Counsel, excuse me, for the record would you identify that?

MR. EISMAN:  It's G-14.

A  No mention is made of the blood stain size.
Q  What size is this portion of rug?
A  It's approximately 9 x 12 inches.
Q  9 x 12 inches?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And how many blood stains are contained in this section of 9 x 12?
A  I can't give you the exact number--several.
Q  Does it say on your report how many?  Does it say on the record of whoever did this how many blood stains there are?
A  No, sir.
Q  Which is the largest blood stain that you can see on the rug?  Please indicate by pointing to it.

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  The picture speaks for itself.  The investigating officer can draw that conclusion as well as the witness.

COL ROCK:  I'm not quite sure of the relevancy, what point you are driving at.

MR. EISMAN:  I think at this point there will be some relevancy made that a blood stain of Type AB, that of Kimberly MacDonald, was found at the entrance way to the master bedroom.  I think that's the purpose upon which the government is offering this particular photograph, and that's the purpose upon which they will attempt to make some type of evidence, whatever, out of it.  Whatever that may be, I'm not certain, but at least that is why this is being offered into evidence, and at this point I'd like to find out the size, the approximate size of this blood stain so the investigating officer could in the future relate the importance of this blood stain to the case itself.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the--of course, the government is making evidence, however what this witness is being asked to do is describe what he sees in this picture.  The picture is in evidence.  It speaks for itself.  He's not being asked as an expert, or from the notes of an expert.  He's simply being asked as a person to look at this picture, and the investigating officer himself can do that.

MR. EISMAN:  I was asking him to give an approximate size of the blood stain.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, he's already answered that he cannot.

COL ROCK:  Objection sustained.

Q  Now in the master bedroom were there any other types of AB blood found other than this particular photograph?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where would that be?
A  On a sheet, I believe Exhibit D-211.
Q  D-211.  What are you referring to now, Specialist Chamberlain?  Is this a diagram of the master bedroom showing where all the blood stains was found?  Is that what this is?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  May I see that, please?

CPT SOMERS:  The government objects.  Those are the personal notes of the witness.  They have been used to refresh his memory, and he's not testifying from them.

MR. EISMAN:  Well, he just did testify from them on the question.  I think I have an absolute right to have this exhibit marked for the record and introduced into evidence.

COL ROCK:  I seem to recall that the witness asked if he could refer to his notes, which is exactly what he is doing.  I assume that is one of his notes.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, he also said he's like to refresh his memory from his notes and that's what he's done.

CPT BEALE: Was his memory refreshed?

MR. EISMAN:  Is your memory refreshed now that you've looked at your notes, Specialist Chamberlain?

A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  Then again, I would ask that if this has been used to refresh his recollection, that this be placed into evidence so that we can have this full document before the court.

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, if in fact his memory is refreshed by use of his notes, then there is no reason whatsoever to have that introduced into evidence.  So therefore, your request to have it entered into evidence is refused, and you can ask the witness any question you might care to based on the fact that his memory is now refreshed having looked at it.

Q  Now Specialist Chamberlain, would you please tell us where every other blood stain was found in the master bedroom without refreshing your recollection from these notes?
A  Yes, sir, I can refresh my memory from other notes if you'd care for me to.
Q  Would this particular document be an accurate representation of where the blood stains were found, at least an accurate approximation?
A  It's an approximation, sir.
Q  And could you say from your notes, or could you indicate on the diagram before the court where exactly each blood stain was found without viewing this particular--

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, we are not interested in all blood stains.  I thought we were particularly interested in this one that was contained in this photograph.  This witness is not being called upon to remember where they all are.

MR. EISMAN:  Well, can we request at this time that we be given a copy of this document so that we could use it in our defense, since this is being--this is part of the laboratory notes which were used to prepare this case?

CPT SOMERS:  I'd object to that.  That document which the counsel has in his hand is the personal work of somebody at the laboratory.

COL ROCK:  May I see that, please?

MR. EISMAN:  I thought it would be helpful to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK:  After looking this over, Captain Somers, I think this particular document would be extremely helpful for me personally in trying to come to some conclusions from apparently the mass of exhibits that were taken at the scene of the alleged crime.  I would request that perhaps with the assistance of the current witness that this might be enlarged a bit so that it would photograph or reproduce in some fashion for my use and for the use of the counsel for the government, and counsel for the accused.  I am returning the original back to Specialist Chamberlain.  Now I also notice that this, Specialist Chamberlain, is a diagram of the east bedroom.  Do you also have a similar type diagram of what's been described as the north and south bedroom?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And of the living room?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And of the kitchen?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And of the bathroom?

WITNESS: The hall bathroom, yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And of the hall?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And of the dining room?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  I would like to have copies of each of these, Captain Somers, and a copy for the defense, because quite frankly I find with the mass of evidence that's available in my deliberations, once all evidence has been presented, that this will be of an inestimable value to me when trying to simplify the evidence that's being presented.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, if I may have five minutes before we do that.  It is my understanding that we have charts which can be put on this easel which are much bigger than those notes which have been made by a draftsman, and which do the same job.

COL ROCK:  Are they as detailed as these notes?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.  Sir, these are personal.  They belong to the laboratory people and the government resists putting them into evidence in any way, shape or form.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, do you mean to say that this particular diagram with all its reference to the particular exhibits referred to in Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, are actually reproduced on a larger diagram in as much detail as we have here?

CPT SOMERS:  That's what I want to check.  It is my understanding that this is the case.

COL ROCK:  All right, then, this hearing will recess for ten minutes while you make the appropriate determination.

(The hearing recessed at 0943 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0959 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties, including the witness, who were here at the beginning of the recess, are currently in the hearing room.  Proceed, gentlemen.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, do you want the answer to the question?

COL ROCK:  Affirmative.

CPT SOMERS:  I have checked and my information is correct, and we will have available for this hearing the charts that I have been alluding to.  They are charts by a draftsman.  They are exploded views including all the walls and the ceiling.  They locate each and every exhibit and they will be I think much superior to the notes which have been taken from this witness.
Sir, can we resist the placing of the notes of the laboratory technicians in evidence; insofar as when we intend to present these exhibits, we intend to present them at the time we present other testimony, and we are not certain, as of right now, that the last two of them have been completed by the draftsman.

COL ROCK:  From what source is the draftsman obtaining his information upon which to draw the diagrams?

CPT SOMERS:  From the dual source of the lab reports and the picture, and certainly with the assistance of the criminal investigators who supervised the taking of the evidence.

COL ROCK:  Your information is noted, however, I would still like to have burned copies of the diagrams draw by Specialist Chamberlain, as I feel are germane to this particular issue.

CPT SOMERS:  When do you want this accomplished?

COL ROCK:  I would think that--well, certainly before Specialist Chamberlain departs to return to his home station.

MR. EISMAN:  I think we could have Xerox copies of these, the only thing that wouldn't show would be the color of the red lettering and I think that that would be sufficient for--

COL ROCK:  Yes, when I refer to burn copies, I don't know whether it would be Xerox or some other process.

MR. EISMAN:  I don't think it is necessary to have color photographs taken.

COL ROCK:  Please proceed, counselor.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you.

Q  Specialist Chamberlain, you have testified that there were many, many blood stains in the MacDonald home on that night and they were blood stains of all of the MacDonald family as you know there.  Is that correct?
A  No, sir.  I said there were four different blood types.
Q  And do you have any information or did you make any investigation as to what the blood types of the MacDonald family were?
A  I received a telephone call from one of the criminal investigators at Fort Bragg, and he told me that he obtained four blood types from the hospital.
Q  Do you know whether they were obtained by word of mouth or from actual blood testing of the victims and Captain MacDonald?
A  No.
Q  And that was the basis upon which you conducted your tests, is the oral information by telephone?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  This witness has just said that he did not identify these blood types as belonging to any given individual.  Now the counsel is attempting to put words in his mouth.

MR. EISMAN:  No, I am not.  I just want to know whether the only information he obtained regarding the blood types of the family were by telephone.  That's the mere--

COL ROCK:  He has so stated.

CPT BEALE: Your objection is sustained.

Q  Now when the exhibits which are indicated as no blood found--does that mean you are convinced scientifically that there is absolutely no blood there, or could there possibly have been blood?  But there was not enough of the exhibit, of the stains to determine whether this was human blood?
A  There was no blood present.
Q  And regardless of the size of the blood stain or the quantity of blood, it is always possible in every event to determine whether or not it is human blood.  Is that what your testimony is now?
A  No, sir.
Q  Then if some of the blood stains were of insufficient quantity to conduct a scientific examination, would you then say that there was no blood present, or no blood found?
A  No, sir.
Q  What would you say?  What would your report be if there was a red stain present but insufficient quantity to tell whether or not it was blood?

COL ROCK:  Counselor, I think it would help if you would refer to a specific paragraph in here for clarity, as far as I am concerned.

Q  All right, paragraph number 21, on page 13, I think, of the original laboratory report.  Do you have that, Specialist Chamberlain?
A  No, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  He doesn't have a copy of it.

(Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9 were handed to the witness.)

WITNESS: Which paragraph was that, sir?

MR. EISMAN:  Paragraph 21 page 13.  Have you had an opportunity to read that?

A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right, now your conclusion is that it did not reveal the presence of any blood stains.  Now is your testimony today that these exhibits were definitely not blood, or is it possible that they might have been blood but you aren't able to scientifically make that determination?
A  There was no blood present, in this exhibit, sir.
Q  So in each of these exhibits there was a sufficient quantity available, if it were blood, to make a determination on each of these exhibits?
A  If there were any blood present, it would have been detected.
Q  Can you tell us what these exhibits were?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What were they?
A  I'd like to refresh my memory from my notes.
Q  Certainly.

CPT BEALE: What's the relevancy of this, because we can read and determine.

MR. EISMAN:  I asked him what the substance was--that was contained in each of these exhibits.

CPT BEALE: Oh.

MR. EISMAN:  He stated they were not blood; now, I want to refresh his recollection from his notes to determine what these exhibits were.

WITNESS: I'm sorry; I didn't understand your question.  No.

Q  You would not know what they are?
A  I wouldn't know what they were.
Q  Was any test made on these exhibits to determine what they were?
A  No test, other than the test for blood.
Q  Now in reference to paragraph 20, Specialist Chamberlain, the conclusion in that paragraph, on page 13, is that further examinations were precludes due to the paucity of the stain.  Would you please tell us and the investigating officer what that means to you?
A  Paucity means to me the lack of a sufficient quantity of the sample to do further investigations.
Q  Well, how small or large does a blood stain have to be in order to be able to type the blood?  Is there any scientific level at which you can or cannot make that test?
A  There are approximate limits.  If it's on--if it is just a blood stain on a hard surface, a large drop might be sufficient.  If it is a stain on a cloth, a large drop would be sufficient, most likely.
Q  When you say a large drop, what do you mean by that?
A  Approximately a quarter of a centimeter.
Q  Getting back to paragraph 21, in your course of--two-month course that you had with reference to blood work or identification, is it your knowledge of that course that no matter how small or how faint the stain might be, that human blood will always be able to be identified without any exception in 100% of cases?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Well, were you able to tell in each one of these exhibits whether or not scientifically there was sufficient quantity of the stains that your test would work?  Do you understand the question?
A  Yes, sir, I understand the question.  Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q  And that would have been--what would make your determination that they were of sufficient quantity?  Would you--a visual observation of them?
A  Yes, sir, I believe so.  A visual observation--the test we use works.  I am referring to the benzidine test.
Q  Right, there's no problem on that, but it works on a 100%--it is 100% effective in testing smears of blood.  Is that your testimony today?
A  I wouldn't say 100%.  I would say practically 100%, sir.
Q  Now when you type blood, how much of it do you have to destroy in your test?
A  That depends on what the stain is upon.
Q  Well, on a wall, say a smear on a wall.  What would you have to destroy in a light smear on a wall?
A  Well, it's really hard to say, sir.  It depends upon the individual smear.
Q  How do you arrive at these determinations that examinations of certain stains were indicated to be of an International Blood Type A or Type O?  What is the determination made where it is either one or the other?
A  That means that we performed the crust test and found the agglutinins present.
Q  And that would indicate what?
A  That would indicate the blood type.
Q  Would that mean that the sample would have been destroyed in making that test?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now once the agglutinogens are found present, is that an absolute indication of what blood type that would be?
A  We use the agglutinogens in conjunction with the agglutinins, both.
Q  Now both the test which you mentioned only determine the agglutinogens?
A  The crust test determines the agglutinins.
Q  The agglutinins?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now in order to be positive as to what type it is, what other test do you have to perform?
A  The absorption elution test for agglutinogens.
Q  Now, without the absorption elution test can you say which of the two types this would be?  Type AB, or Type B, or Type O?
A  No, sir.
Q  So that in each of the paragraphs, paragraph 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16--in each of those paragraphs where it said that the blood type is indicated, that means that the second part of the testing which would determine scientifically the exact blood type, was not able to have been concluded.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.  Excuse me, sir, one or the another of the tests was not successfully completed.
Q  So at that point you could not say to a scientific certainly that this was Blood Type Group A, or Group O, therefore you used the term indicated, indicated same to be of that type.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you ever run any of these tests in this case which indicated the presence of two types of blood?  Specialist Chamberlain, do you understand the question?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  Refer particularly to paragraph 9 on page 12, Specialist Chamberlain.  Read that first before I ask you any more questions.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you read that completely now?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, how do you determine that there are two blood types present, and preclude the presence of any other blood types?
A  These were different areas, stains on the same exhibit.
Q  So that, is your testimony--if it's not, please correct me--your testimony that if there were two types of blood in one stain, could you or could you not make the determination that both were present?  Both types were present if they were both in the same stain?
A  I believe we would have to give an indication on that.  It depends on what the actual results are.
Q  If two are mixed together in a stain, according to your knowledge of blood work and hematology, could you make the determination as to which two were present?  To a scientific certainty.
A  Ordinarily, no sir.
Q  And if two blood types were mixed together, would you come up with a different blood type--in other words if A and B were mixed together, would you come up with indication that this was AB type blood?
A  I don't really understand your question.
Q  Look at paragraph 15, Specialist Chamberlain.
A  Okay, yes, sir.
Q  Read the last line out loud so that the investigating officer can hear it.

COL ROCK:  I have a copy of it.

Q  In that particular example we have a statement that indicates the presence of International Blood--two types, a mixture of blood, International Blood Group Types AB and A.  Now how would that determination have been made?
A  We would have found the Alpha or anti-A--I'm sorry--the beta--excuse me, sir, let me think about that one minute.  We would have found the A and B agglutinogens, and we would have found the beta or anti-B agglutinin.
Q  All right, now that anti-B agglutinin, would that also be found in blood type O?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  So that--that indication could also mean that this was blood type O, and not a mixture of AB and A.  Is that correct?
A  It's only correct if you assume the O blood has deteriorated.  One would expect also to find the anti-A for O blood.
Q  Do you know whether or not the anti-A was found in the blood types AB and A?  Would that be found?
A  Anti-A is not found in blood types AB or A.
Q  Well, what indication would have been made to indicate that this was blood types AB and A as opposed to just B, AB or A?
A  A blood would only demonstrate the A agglutinogens, whereas AB would demonstrate both the A and B agglutinogens, but would not demonstrate the anti-B.

COL ROCK:  Let me interject a question, perhaps to clarify it in my mind, counselor.  Exhibit D-121, from Government Exhibit 7, is the north pillow and cover bearing red brown stains from the bed in the south bedroom.  Now, Specialist Chamberlain, as I read paragraph 15, it talks here in several sentences.  The second one specifically--further examinations of other human blood--and then in the last sentence--further examinations of other human blood.  It is my understanding that this means that there was at least three different blood samples that you tested on this pillow, or that someone at the lab tested on this pillow.  Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.

COL ROCK:  Okay, fine.  Please proceed, counselor.

Q  But that the final indication that AB and A were found is indicated because there is a mixture and not specific stains.  Wouldn't that be the meaning of this--reading of this paragraph--when it says there was a presence of a mixture of the International Blood Group Types AB and A, and indicated that they were all found in the same stain, as opposed to separate stains?
A  You mean the AB and the A?
Q  Yes, sir, the same stain?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  Would the reporter read back the last question and answer?

(Reporter complied.)

Q  Have you ever run a test of blood which first indicated the blood to be one type, and run another test of a stain from the same sample and indicated that it could have been of another type?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  First, it might help a little bit, Specialist Chamberlain, if you would explain to us how this anti-A, anti factors in this blood is used and what it means in counter-balance to the other tests.
A  Okay.  The anti-A and anti-B factors I've been talking about, which are agglutinins, and the agglutinogens A and B and O, are complimentary.  That is that if you have O type blood, then you also have anti-A and anti-B.  If you have A type blood, then you have anti-B.

COL ROCK:  It is really a process of elimination then to some degree?

WITNESS: I don't understand that, sir.

COL ROCK:  Well, if you've got one type, then you don't have some of the other types of anti--

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's a possibility.

COL ROCK:  Let me ask at this juncture, how many types of blood are there in the International Group?

WITNESS: Just four basic types.

COL ROCK:  Four basic types?  Well, now it was said earlier--I don't believe you were present at the time, I'm not sure--that one individual had AB plus; another had O RH negative; another one A RH positive; and another individual, B type.  Now are those the four basic types? Are there a variance of the four basic types?

WITNESS: The AB, A, B, and O are the four basic types.

COL ROCK:  The AB, A, B, and the O.  Now, when you mention RH negative and RH positive you are then adding another factor that would seem to me might appear maybe in the B type--in other words, can you have a B plus and a B RH negative, and a B RH positive?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, I believe so.

COL ROCK:  Then actually, there is a multiple here.  There could be an infinite variety of types of blood.  Is that correct?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  In other words, you mentioned four basic types.  How many, all total, sub-types would there be?  16, 50, 2000?

WITNESS: Sir, I don't believe anybody knows.  There are many types.

COL ROCK:  Does your normal testing indicate RH negative, RH positive, plus or minus factors in each of the basic groups?

WITNESS: No, sir, it does not.

COL ROCK:  So it would be possibly, let us say, that you could determine that there was blood type O, and you wouldn't know whether it was an RH negative or an RH positive.  You would simply identify it as blood of type O, as you have, apparently, in this document?

WITNESS: That is correct.

COL ROCK:  Why can't you indicate in your test whether it is RH negative, RH positive or plus, for example?

WITNESS: The RH factor tend to--they do decompose on dried stains and research at this time has found no satisfactory means for detecting this.

COL ROCK:  Please continue.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Now in terms of the explanation you have just given of the anti-A and the way they are balanced against the other factors, when you have a mixture of AB and A indicated, does--first of all, does AB blood have any anti factors?
A  No, sir.
Q  It does not.  And A has what kind of anti factor?
A  Anti-B.
Q  And you would find then what sort of indication if you had a mixture of AB and A?
A  You mean what factors would be found?
Q  Yes.
A  You would find anti-B and the A and B.
Q  Now would you normally find anti-B in B blood?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now you've been asked about whether you've ever run a test which indicated one type of blood and subsequently ran a test on the same stain and had an indication of a different type of blood.  If this happens, what do you normally do?
A  I don't quite understand the question.
Q  Well, if in testing a specific stain, you test it and you get an indication that it is a given blood type, and then you run another test on the same stain, and you get a different indication.  I believe you said this had happened to you before?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What is your normal procedure then when you do this?  Do you run another test, or what do you do?
A  We run as many tests as possible to determine this.  However, if there is no sample left, we can't establish what blood type it is.  We may just give an indication.
Q  I show you now Exhibit G-16, which is a picture--of a white object with some colored stains on it.  Would you look at that picture please?  Now, did you work on that particular exhibit?

(G-16 was shown to the IO and counsel for the accused.)

A  Yes, sir.
Q  Which exhibit is that?
A  That is D-60NB.
Q  Can you tell us what indications you received as to blood types on those two large stains?
A  Yes, sir.  In both stains we found type A blood and there was an indication of A blood and also an indication of O blood.
Q  Your indication was most of what type?
A  Most of the indications were A.

CPT SOMERS:  I hand this picture to the investigating officer.

Q  I show you Government Exhibit G-17 and ask you to look at it.  Can you tell us; is that one of the exhibits in this case?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Which one?
A  It's Exhibit D-214.
Q  Can you tell us whether AB blood was found on that exhibit?
A  Yes, sir, AB blood was found on this exhibit.
Q  Can you possibly point out the areas of the AB blood?
A  Yes, sir, I believe I can.

MR. EISMAN:  I'd like to know if the witness has a diagram of the exhibit, as to where each stain was found.

CPT SOMERS:  The witness has a picture of the exhibit.

MR. EISMAN:  Does it indicate where each stain was found, the size of the stain, Specialist Chamberlain?

WITNESS: It indicates where some of the satins were found, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  Can we have that also--

CPT SOMERS:  He's about to point it out.

MR. EISMAN:  And furnish the investigating officer so that it will be part of the record.

CPT SOMERS:  He's about to point out on this picture what areas are which.  The picture he has does not say that.  It has lettered areas.  He's about to put together the letters which tells us which area it is with the blood types, so it will be pointed out on Government Exhibit 17, which areas are which.

MR. EISMAN:  I'd like to also have the original available to the--

CPT SOMERS:  The government resists that request.

MR. EISMAN:  So that the investigating officer could see how the original looks as opposed to any transformation which might be made.

CPT BEALE: Your request at this time, I think, will be denied.  Let's let the witness try to attempt to answer his question, and then if it's not clear to everyone, you can renew your request at that time.

WITNESS: This area right here.

COL ROCK:  We can't see where the--

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers.  Bring him up here with counsel so that Colonel Rock--

CPT SOMERS:  All right, I'll do that, and I'll have him circle the areas as they are circled on his picture and letter them.

COL ROCK:  All right, go ahead.

(Witness and counsel for both sides approached the IO's desk.)

CPT SOMERS:  Now, Specialist Chamberlain, I give you a marking pencil and ask you to mark these areas as you refer to them.

COL ROCK:  Well, now shouldn't he mark them, or what system is he going to use in marking these that will be coherent as far as--we'll take a recess in place.

(The hearing recessed at 1037 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1050 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that the persons in attendance at the time of the recess are currently in the hearing room.  I believe we are in the redirect process.  Would you proceed, counselor?

Q  Specialist Chamberlain, I see that you have drawn two oblongs on this picture and they seem to be labeled AB.  Would you tell us what that means?
A  That means that we--I determined that there was A blood, AB blood within these areas.
Q  And I see a signature and the date on this picture.  Is that your signature and today's date?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you also find A blood on this towel?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you mark it from this picture?
A  No, sir, I cannot.
Q  Why is that?
A  It is on the other side of the towel.

CPT SOMERS:  Very good.  I hand this picture to the investigating officer.  At this time, sir, I would like to have marked as exhibits the diagrams from the notes of the laboratory technician of the various rooms which have been referred to before.

COL ROCK:  G-20 will be diagram of east bedroom prepared by Specialist Chamberlain.  Exhibit G-21 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of north bedroom.  Government Exhibit 22 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the south bedroom.  Government Exhibit 23 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the hall, hall bathroom area.  Government Exhibit 24 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the living room area.  Government Exhibit 25 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the kitchen and dining room.  These diagrams will be reproduced in sufficient copies to provide to counsel for the government, counsel for the accused, and the investigating officer.

Q  Specialist Chamberlain, can you tell us how these diagrams were made?
A  Yes, sir.  I reconstructed the floor plan of the house, of the house by memory, and then from the description and the notes I took at the scene, and also the results of the lab report, I drew both the floor plan and where each blood type was that was found.
Q  These diagrams were made after the fact of the taking of the exhibits?
A  Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions at this time.

COL ROCK:  Let me clarify one thing, in my own mind, with reference to the testimony of the witness.  Specialist Chamberlain, would you please refer to paragraph 7 of page 12, of Government Exhibit 7, that is the big document; the report states that International Blood Group Types A and AB on each exhibit, and this is referring to Exhibits D-211 and D-214.  Now Exhibit D-214 is the bath mat, a photograph of which is contained in Government Exhibit 17.  Now you have testified and have diagrammed on Government Exhibit 17 only the AB type.  Does this mean that you were not able to identify the A type on this photograph?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.  The A blood was found on the reverse side of the towel.

COL ROCK:  On the reverse side.  Thank you.  Does counsel for the accused have any further questions?

MR. EISMAN:  May we ask in the future that these exhibits, what's ever left of them be made available to the defense, if we want to run our own tests on them?  If there are remaining portions of the blood stains available?

COL ROCK:  What does counsel for the government have to say?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the real evidence in this case is in the possession of the Criminal Investigation Division in their evidence locker.  I cannot get it from them for that purpose and I have no authority to have this evidence released to the defense for that purpose.

MR. EISMAN:  I would say that there's nothing more basic than our right to have our own experts see the evidence, and if we are not permitted to see the evidence I would object to the government introducing it in their case.  I think I have a perfect right to object to that.  We can't say that we are not permitted to see these things.  If the government is permitted to have them, certainly the defendant, if they are capable of being viewed by our own experts, should have the opportunity to view these, and I don't accept the excuse given that he doesn't have the authority.  If he has the authority to use them in his case he also has the authority to permit us, our experts to view then also; and we have an absolute right to have our experts view them.

CPT SOMERS:  Insofar as viewing these things, any time the defense wishes to go to the Criminal Investigation Division and view these exhibits, or have their experts view these exhibits, I will attempt to arrange that.  I cannot release the exhibits to the defense.

COL ROCK:  I will make my ruling subsequently after I have had time to consider this, gentlemen.
    I have at this time several questions of the witness.  First, I noted that there seemed to be several discrepancies, perhaps they could have been typographical errors, but I would like to clarify.  These all relate to Government Exhibit 7, the thick document.  First, is with reference to page 11, paragraph 2.  This refers to Exhibit--strike that.  On the third sentence, third line, the second exhibit number is D-136.  I could not find an exhibit numbered D-136 in the list in the front part of this exhibit.  Does, in fact, such an exhibit exist; is this a typographical error, or what?

WITNESS: Sir, I believe such exhibit does exist.

COL ROCK:  Do you know, in your knowledge, where that exhibit is listed?  Is it listed in some other document?

WITNESS: I believe it is, sir.  I don't know which one, offhand.

COL ROCK:  Would it be within your competence to answer that question, or should I address it to your Commanding Officer, or some other individual?

WITNESS: Which document it is in?

COL ROCK:  No, the Exhibit D-136.  Within the three Government Exhibits, which I have currently from Fort Gordon, Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, I see no evidence of that exhibit being listed.

WITNESS: What was your question, sir?

COL ROCK:  My question is to whom should I address the question as to where that exhibit is listed?

WITNESS: To me, sir.  I believe there is a correctional copy report.  I don't know if you have a copy of that yet or not.  It may be listed in there.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the government have a copy of that correctional report?

CPT SOMERS:  That the one that I intend to bring in with Mr. Browning, since he was the one you wished to ask that question of, sir.

COL ROCK:  Well, I have a series of questions here.  They all, however, refer to blood, and that's the reason I thought--

CPT SOMERS:  I can bring that correctional report in now if you'd like, sir.

COL ROCK:  What I will then do is make a list of these discrepancies that I have noted and then refer a copy to you and to counsel for the accused, and then perhaps we can clarify this thing with the next witness.
    The second major point will refer to a large number of Government Exhibits on which apparently no tests were run, and I make this statement based on the fact that looking at the results of tests reveal that those exhibits apparently are not alluded to in the results.  Does counsel for the accused know why that is so?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at the time this original report was rendered, and in fact at the time all three were completed, some of the results on some of the exhibits had still not been completed.  The correctional report, which is at least 50% correctional administratively, and also contains further results, I gather from having looked at it this morning, and that's the best answer I can give you.

COL ROCK:  I would request then that copies of that report be presented to the investigating officer and to counsel for the accused soonest because it is quite germane to the testimony that appears to me to be of the expert witnesses which are appearing before us this date.  I have no further questions of the witness.  Does either counsel?

MR. EISMAN:  The only thing I would ask, if we are going to get a copy of that supplemental report today, I would hope around lunch time, that Specialist Chamberlain be instructed to remain here in case there are any questions that the investigating officer or myself or Captain Somers has in regards to that supplemental report, since we don't have it.

COL ROCK:  None of these expert witnesses will be released until I am satisfied we have all the information.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you, sir.

COL ROCK:  One further question by the investigating officer, I direct your attention to page 6, in Exhibit D-207A, B and C; how were you able to identify the photograph as being Exhibit D-207B and not A or C?

WITNESS: Because D-207B was taken from the entrance to the master bedroom and was marked as such on the card in the photograph.

COL ROCK:  Would you be able to identify the A or the C by any means?

WITNESS: Sir, I don't know.  I'd have to see the photographs.

COL ROCK:  No further questions of the witness.  Do you request that he be excused temporarily?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, with the--respect to the administrative corrections that are to be accomplished I do suggest that this witness, along with Mr. Browning be permitted to spend time during lunch compiling this so that we can be certain they've had long enough to take care of all the discrepancies, that is to actually testify about the discrepancies, it would be better after lunch, although I will bring the report in question before.

COL ROCK:  Well, I would hope that the document you are submitting is of sufficient clarity that it will be self-explanatory, but certainly, take whatever time the gentlemen require to clarify it in your own mind.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I think it will be self-explanatory as to administrative corrections.  It may not be self-explanatory to some exhibits, which even at this point, had not been completed; i.e. it may not say that a particular exhibit has or has not been completed.  So it might give them more time to cross check everything and make sure they've covered all those.

COL ROCK:  Well certainly use whatever time is necessary, and I believe the gentleman you mentioned would logically be our next witness.  Is that correct?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Can they complete their work prior to 1330 hours?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  In order to save time, will it not be helpful to have the representative of counsel for the accused at these deliberations, so that we all are all on the same basis?

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir, I don't think that would save any time.  What might save time would be if the investigating officer does have a list of specific questions as to exhibits, if he'd give that to us.

COL ROCK:  This will be done.  I suggest that we recess until 13--

MR. EISMAN:  Could we have at least a copy of this to read during the lunch?

COL ROCK:  This is going to be expedited.

CPT SOMERS:  I will give him a copy.

MR. EISMAN:  This is so we will have a list of questions after lunch.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 1330.

(The hearing recessed at 110 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1352 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the closing are currently in the hearing room, with the exception of Lieutenant Malley, and the witness is also present.  Please proceed, on those matters which were under consideration at the time.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time the government asks that this exhibit I hand to Colonel Rock be marked as Government Exhibit--

COL ROCK:  G-26, which is Change One to US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, Fort Gordon, Georgia, Lab Report Number FA-D-P-C-FP-82-70-R-4, which amends Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, Specialist Chamberlain, I hand you Government Exhibit G-26.  Now, sir, it might save time in this case for me simply to address myself to the points which were brought to my attention by the legal advisor as possible omissions, then we could proceed from there with any information that you may wish from this witness.  I should point out for the record that a copy, in fact, two copies of G-26 have been provided to the defense.
The first question posed was as to what Exhibit D-136 was.  You will find this on the front page of Government Exhibit G-26.

COL ROCK:  Thank you.

CPT SOMERS:  The next question was as to a reference in Government Exhibit 7, on page 11, paragraph 2, to Exhibit D-232.  It appears both in line 3 and line 4 from that exhibit.  That is a typographical error.

COL ROCK:  Therefore we will strike the last reference to D-232 from that paragraph.  Before proceeding further I want to make sure that counsel for the accused is with us.

CPT DOUTHAT: Could you repeat that, please, Captain Somers?

COL ROCK:  Well, I will repeat it.  Page 11 of Exhibit 7, paragraph 2, line 4 the last number there is D-232.  Strike that as it appears also on the above line.  That is a typographical error.  Proceed, counselor.

CPT SOMERS:  Exhibit D-55NB was questioned.  You will find the description of Exhibit D-55NB on the front page of Government Exhibit G-26.

COL ROCK:  Thank you.

CPT SOMERS:  Exhibit D-57NB and D-63NB are also questioned.  You will find a description of those exhibits on page one of the G-26.

COL ROCK:  Okay.

CPT SOMERS:  Some of the questions was raised about Exhibit D-224, which is described as two bottles containing liquid from the hall bathroom sink trap.  I think Specialist Chamberlain can tell us what was done there.

COL ROCK:  Now that is with reference to what paragraph of Exhibit 7?

CPT SOMERS:  I'll have to find it, sir.  You will find it in paragraph 20 on page 13, sir, on the second line, just past midway.

COL ROCK:  Okay.

CPT SOMERS:  It is in the paragraph which says exhibits indicate the presence of blood.  The question was, was this a stain on the bottle or from the bottle, the contents of the bottle.
Specialist Chamberlain, could you answer that for us?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.  The anti-human precipitin test was done on the liquid contained in the bottle.  There was no red brown stain.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the accused understand what I was questioning on that?

CPT DOUTHAT: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Can you tell us what was in that bottle, what was that liquid?

WITNESS: It appeared to be water, sir.  We didn't confirm that.

CPT SOMERS:  Do you know from where?

WITNESS: It, I believe, was from the trap in the bathroom sink.

COL ROCK:  Okay.

CPT SOMERS:  Now with reference to a list of exhibits about which nothing--there seemed to be nothing said--

CPT BEALE: Counselor, before you go to that, I think there was one other question in reference to some confusion over one particular thing that was typed as O and in another typed as unknown.  It was the same exhibit.

CPT SOMERS:  Are you referring to D-108?

CPT BEALE: I don't know which one.

CPT SOMERS:  Would you look at Government Exhibit 7, please Specialist Chamberlain.  On page 4 you will find a listing for D-108.  Paragraph 12, on page 12 you will find it is listed as having indicated type O blood.  Do you see that?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Your finding is listed again in paragraph 19 on page 13 on the second line, third from the right.  Do you see it there?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, it is crossed out on this copy.

CPT SOMERS:  Do you know, as between showing type O blood and showing of the presence of human blood, which is correct, or are both correct?

WITNESS: Both are correct, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Both are correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, except that we were able to determine that there was an indication of the type O, which would be incorrect so far as the statement that blood typing examinations were precluded due to the paucity of the stain.

COL ROCK:  Are you saying essentially that in paragraph 19, the Exhibit D-108 should be struck from that second line?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Is counsel for the accused with me on that?

(CPT Douthat nodded in the affirmative.)

COL ROCK:  Please address the second matter.

CPT SOMERS:  Now I have a list from the investigating officer of exhibits which do not appear to have had work done on them.  The first one listed is D-1.  You will find that in paragraph one on the first page of G-26.  Also, if I may back up one step, the question, Exhibit D-3, nothing appears about Exhibit D-3.  If you will look at paragraph b.3 on page 2 of G-26, you will see that numbering D-3 has been changed to I-3.  As to D-1a, which was questioned by the investigating officer, you will find it in paragraph 4 on page 2 of G-26.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, let me interrupt you for just a second.  The list that we provided you with apparently has no testimony on.  Are each and every one of those answered in the supplementary report?

CPT SOMERS: They are, with some exceptions.  If you'd like I can just--

COL ROCK:  Just address the exceptions, please.

CPT SOMERS:  I should say that the exhibits J, K, M, N, and O were fingerprints exhibits.  The complete results on fingerprints, we still do not have, but we do have the fingerprint man here to tell us about them.  Exhibits P and Q are mentioned in one of these reports as containing no matchable fingerprints.  If you like, I will point it out to you later.  They are specifically mentioned.  Exhibits R-1 thru T, these are fingerprints exhibits, they are mentioned on page 15 of Government Exhibit 7; P thru T are mentioned on page 7 of Government Exhibit 8, sir.  Again, it will be easier for us to deal with the fingerprints when we have the fingerprint man.

COL ROCK:  This is satisfactory.

CPT SOMERS:  You have listed, sir, Exhibits D-240, 244, 248, and D-262.  All of these may be found in paragraph 13 of Government Exhibit 8, I believe it is.  That's correct, on page 5, paragraph 13, Government Exhibit 8.  You have also indicated E-305.  You will find E-305 on page 6, paragraph 25 of Government Exhibit 8.

COL ROCK:  All right.

CPT SOMERS:  I should say for the record, sir, that there will be at least one more report in final form encompassing all of these changes when that is possible.  However, these preliminary reports were rendered to provide information as expeditiously as possible.

COL ROCK:  Do you anticipate that report will be principally a consolidation of all the information?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, that's what I expect, with the possible exception of some analysis which we know that Mr. Browning is still doing on wax and some analyses which are still proceeding in the fingerprint section.

COL ROCK:  Is there any indication when we may expect that?  Will it be prior to the conclusion of this hearing?

CPT SOMERS:  I would estimate that it will not, sir.  Every effort, however, will be made to see that it is.

COL ROCK:  Do you know what the basic holdup is?  It surely isn't just typing?

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir, as I have indicated in the case of Mr. Browning.  He has just received more exhibits to compare; in the case of fingerprint section, they have just received twenty-four more sets of record prints, or twenty-three more sets of record prints to compare, some of these gathered from quite diverse places.
    At this time, sir, I ask that the document I hand you now be marked as Government Exhibit--

COL ROCK:  Government Exhibit 27.

CPT SOMERS:  Let the record reflect that I am providing the defense with a copy of this exhibit.

COL ROCK:  What does this exhibit purport to be?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I would like to have Chamberlain explain this exhibit to you.

COL ROCK:  All right, and then we'll give a name to it, I guess.

CPT SOMERS:  Specialist Chamberlain, I show you Government Exhibit G-27.  Can you tell us what this is, please?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, this is a list of the exhibits obtained for the most part from the MacDonald house, and it summarizes what the prefix letters are to the exhibits.  For instance, Exhibit D is respect to blood stains.  Actually we list Exhibits D-1 approximately through D-250.  Similarly, Exhibit E refers to fibers, hairs and debris.  It might be through E-30 or 40, and so forth.

COL ROCK:  Let the record reflect that G-27 is a prefix key for use in determining the exhibits found so far in Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, and 26.

CPT SOMERS:  Now there are one or two things which can be said.  There was a question raised about results on Exhibit H.  Could you tell us about Exhibit H, please, Specialist Chamberlain?

WITNESS: Exhibit H itself is just a generalization.  The description of the exhibit actually--Exhibit H would be composed of Exhibit H-1, H-2, and so forth.

Captain Somers:  If you will look please on page 3 of Government Exhibit 8, you will find reference to some exhibits prefixed by the letter H.  Is that what you referred to?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Now if you will look at Government Exhibit 26, which is the change report, in paragraph 2, under b. on page 2, you have some changes noted.  Compare those changes, please, against page 6 of Government Exhibit 8, which is the report on 17 April.

WITNESS: Page 6, paragraph 28--excuse me--what government exhibit was that--8?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes.  Now these changes noted in paragraph b.2--are they correct changes?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, I believe they are.  That is the exhibit should be H-35NB and the H is before--H-54NB.

COL ROCK:  Well, counsel, I don't see the number E-35 NB and E-54NB in paragraph 28 of Exhibit 8.

CPT SOMERS:  That's my difficulty, sir.  I don't see it either.

COL ROCK:  My report shows it as H-35NB and H-54NB.  Is that what it should read?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is the way it should read.  It should be H-35NB and H-54NB.

CPT SOMERS:  Could you explain why the apparent confusion here with reference to--were you looking at a carbon copy, or what was the difficulty here?

WITNESS: Well, I believe the correction for E-35NB to H-35NB is necessary; however, when I was making up this correction sheet, it was difficult to distinguish H-54NB from E-54NB on the carbon copy.  So I wish to make certain that it would read H-54NB.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, at any rate, both of these should be preceded with the prefix H.  Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I believe that's all the corrections, and I--to the best of my knowledge it accounts for all exhibits.

COL ROCK:  Then in reality paragraph b.2 of Government Exhibit 26 should be lined out.  Is that correct, since no apparent error is evident in the evidence which we have before us?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the accused understand this?

CPT DOUTHAT: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Then we will strike that from the record.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I have no more questions of this witness.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the accused have any further questions?

MR. EISMAN:  Not at this time, sir.

COL ROCK:  Specialist Chamberlain, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.  Do you understand this?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are temporarily excused subject to recall.

(Witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I'd like to point out at this juncture that insofar as I am aware what we have just done with this witness and the exhibit which had just been introduced takes care of the administrative difficulties in these reports.  I bring this up because I see now no reason to recall Mr. Browning for that purpose.

COL ROCK:  I concur with your general observation.  The reason I am holding on to them is until such time as we hear from the last expert witness in case there should develop some question in our minds before they depart for Fort Gordon.  I think it appropriate to have them stand by.

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir, I wasn't suggesting that we release them.  I just wanted to bring this up before other witnesses.

COL ROCK:  Yes, sir, I agree with you on your assumption.

CPT SOMERS:  Are you ready for my next witness?

COL ROCK:  Ready.


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