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Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970 - Volume 4
Specialist 4 Dennis Morris (MP) , CW3 Donald Kalin (Warrant Officer) and
Captain William Neal (MD)

(Specialist Four Dennis Morris was called and testified as a witness by the government, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you state your name, please?
A  Dennis Morris.
Q  Your grade?
A  Specialist Four.
Q  Your organization?
A  Company A, 503d Military Police Battalion.
Q  Your station?
A  Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  And your armed force?
A  United States Army.
Q  What was your duty on the evening of 16 and 17 February of this year?
A  Motor Patrol, consisting of two men in a patrol jeep.
Q  What was the weather in the early morning hours of that--
A  Rainy and cold.
Q  What was your area of patrol?
A  Patrol 34 which consists of Corregidor Courts and Anzio acres.
Q  Did you, during the course of your patrol that evening pass through Corregidor Courts?
A  Yes, sir, I did, sir.
Q  Did you at any time during the course of that evening pass by the junction of Castle Drive and North Dougherty?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And do you have any idea how many times that was?
A  Approximately two to three.
Q  Did you at any one of those times observe any unusual disturbances or strange unusual pedestrians?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Did you have an occasion to hear a radio call relating to 544 Castle Drive that evening?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  What did you do as a result of that call?
A  When we received the call we decided we'd better proceed to that area since it was our patrol area, so I put on the emergency flashers and red light and proceeded to 544 Castle Drive.
Q  When you got there was any other MPs there ahead of you?
A  Yes, sir, there was.
Q  Do you have any idea how many?
A  Approximately four to five patrols which consists of two each.
Q  What did you do when you arrived at 544 Castle Drive?
A  We got out of the jeep, my partner and myself headed towards the main porch which all the other MPs were standing at.
Q  And did you go up on the main porch?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  Why not?
A  Someone shouted out that someone should go to the back door.
Q  Who was this someone that shouted out?
A  I cannot say, sir.
Q  Did you respond to that shout?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  What did you do?
A  I then proceeded to run around to the back door.
Q  When you got to the back door what did you discover?
A  I discovered--I looked in the back door--the back door was open--I seen two bodies laying on the floor.  One was a lady laying on her back and a man laying beside her.
Q  Now did you observe any other MPs come around that way?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Would you tell us about that, please?
A  Sergeant Tevere ran around when I did, and I got to the back door first, and he came up behind me, and he saw what was inside and he turned around and went back to the corner of the house and then four to five more MPs came right behind him.
Q  And when you say they came behind him, are you saying he came back?
A  Yes, sir, he did.
Q  Did anyone enter the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you tell us who?
A  Specialist Four Mica, Sergeant Tevere, Sergeant Duffy, the duty officer, and possibly the duty officer's driver.
Q  Did you enter the house?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Just before or after those people had entered?
A  After.
Q  Did you see Specialist Mica enter?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  What did you do when you entered the door?
A  I entered the back door and I hesitated inside the utility room.
Q  Would you come up to this exhibit, Government Exhibit 1, and on the easel and take a look at this exhibit and orient yourself as to it?

(Witness approached Government Exhibit 1.)

A  I came in through the back door and hesitated possibly right here inside the utility room.
Q  Now you are indicating a point just north of the door between the utility room and the master bedroom.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you do after your hesitation?
A  I then proceeded down the hallway, down this way; and since the front door was locked, I proceeded down the hallway to open the front door.
Q  Okay, you may return to your seat.

(Witness did as directed.)

Q  What were the lighting conditions in the master bedroom?  Was there a light on or not?
A  Yes, sir, the light was on.
Q  Who did you say you saw in the master bedroom?
A  I saw a woman laying on her back and a man laying beside her.
Q  Did you see Specialist Mica go anywhere near these people?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Which one of them?
A  Captain MacDonald, sir.
Q  I show you a picture which has been labeled Accused Exhibit A-6, and ask you to look at it if you will, please.  Can you tell us what room that represents?
A  The master bedroom, sir.
Q  At 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, sir it is.
Q  Can you see the body of the woman on the floor in that picture?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is that the woman's body that you saw that morning?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  Do you see a blue cloth object lying on that woman's body?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  Did you see an object like that the morning that you were in the master bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did--is that the position you saw it in, or did you see it in some other position?
A  At first, sir, when I went in, Captain MacDonald was laying next to her.  At that time I couldn't see it.  And then, after his body had been moved, it was more noticeable.  That is the position I seen it in.
Q  Now you say you went down the hall.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you go into the living room?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  Did you look into the living room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  From what vantage point did you look in the living room?
A  I was standing on the stair steps there going into the living room.
Q  What were the lighting conditions in that area?
A  The lighting conditions were very light.
Q  Are you saying that there was a light on?
A  Yes, sir, somewhere in the house.  It wasn't dark.
Q  Do you know where that light was?
A  No, sir, I don't.
Q  I show you a picture which has been labeled Exhibit 9 and ask you to look at that picture, please.  What does--what room does that represent?  Do you know?
A  It is the main living room, sir, at 544 Castle Drive.
Q  Does that picture represent--well, let me withdraw that.  Is that picture similar to what you saw that morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you note in that picture any differences between what you saw that morning and what that picture represents?
A  No, sir, I don't.
Q  Do you see a white object in that picture?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Near the end of the table?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What would you say that object is?
A  A flower pot, sir.
Q  Did you see that flower pot that morning?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  What position is that flower pot in that picture?
A  It is standing up, sir.
Q  What position was that flower pot in when you saw it that morning?
A  Standing up, sir.
Q  Is that the place it was when you saw it?
A  Yes, sir, it was.
Q  Now before you went down this hall, did you see Specialist Mica go down that hall?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  Where did Mica go, do you know?
A  He went to Captain MacDonald.
Q  I see.  What did you do there at the stairs of the hallway?
A  Well, sir, I went down that hallway to open the front door.  The front door had already been opened.  I proceeded back down the hallway to the master bedroom and someone said that someone should guard the back door, and that's what I proceeded to do, guard the back door.
Q  Do you know who said that?
A  No, sir, I don't.
Q  And when you say you guarded the back door, what do you mean by that?
A  To keep the public from going in and out.

CPT SOMERS:  I see.  Your witness.  If I may, pardon me, there is one or two more questions.

COL ROCK:  Surely.

Q  While you were in the house, Specialist Morris, did you touch or move any item in the house?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Did you see anyone, any MP or anyone else touch or move anything in that house with the exception of Captain Macdonald?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Did you see any debris, mud, or foreign matter on the floor of the master bedroom?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  Did you see any of these materials on the floor in the living room?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Are you telling the investigating officer in this case that you made an examination of the living room floor?
A  No, sir, I glanced at it, at the living room floor.
Q  You never went into the living room, sir, did you, on that morning? 
A  No, sir, I did not go into the living room.
Q  And that glance was made from the top of the two steps leading into the living room so you were actually standing in the hall at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you are not suggesting to the investigating officer, Mr. Morris, that your glance would have given you any accurate observation about the details of that room, would it?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now how was it that you happened to take notice of the position of the white flower pot at that time?
A  The light, sir, and my eye caught the flower pot.
Q  Was there anything special about the flower pot other than it was standing on the floor to hold your attention to it?
A  No, sir.
Q  If I were to tell you that other witnesses have testified that they were also present in the living room and observed the flower pot lying on its side at or about the time that you might have been there, would you believe their observations was more correct that your own, or would you persist in your own observations?
A  I would persist in my own observations.
Q  What else did you observe in that living room at that time other than the white flower pot?
A  That's all, sir, except the table had been turned upon its side.
Q  Anything else about the table that you noticed?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you see anything on the floor besides the flower pot and the overturned coffee table?
A  No, sir.
Q  At that time where was that light emanating from that you were using to make your observations?
A  I'd say from the master bedroom, sir.
Q  The light was coming from the master bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You didn't observe any light in the living room or the kitchen at that time did you?  You didn't observe any light coming from the dining room at that time, did you?
A  No, sir.
Q  You didn't observe any light coming from the kitchen at that time, did you?
A  No, sir.
Q  You weren't in a position to observe whether there was dirt or debris in that living room, were you?
A  No, sir.
Q  So it was adequate light, so far as you were concerned?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now you aren't the person who opened that front door, are you?
A  No, sir.
Q  However, a few minutes ago you told the investigating officer that you went to the front door and unlocked it?
A  No, sir.  I proceeded down the hallway to open the front door.
Q  Am I incorrect in my recollection on direct examination--am I incorrect in my recollection you said a few minutes ago that you went to the front door and opened the front door?
A  No, sir.
Q  You did not say that?
A  No, sir.
Q  Who was the first person to say that?
A  I do not know, sir.
Q  As a matter of fact, wasn't it Specialist Dickerson, who opened it?
A  I couldn't tell you, sir.
Q  Do you recall being interviewed in connection with this case by both Lieutenant Malley, sitting to my left here, and Captain Douthat, sitting to my right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall how long ago that was?
A  Approximately three weeks, sir.
Q  About three weeks from today?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall at that time telling them that Specialist Dickerson beat you to the front door and opened the front door instead of yourself?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  You did not say that or you don't recall saying that?
A  I don't recall saying that, sir.
Q  Do you have any recollection at this time whether it was Specialist Dickerson who opened the front door?
A  No, sir, I don't know who opened the front door.
Q  At the time that you came to the top of those two steps leading into the living room, Specialist Morris, were there any other people in the living room?
A  Yes, sir, there was.
Q  Do you recall at that time, off hand, who they were?
A  No, sir, I don't know.
Q  I assume that they were military policemen?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And is it fair to say that there was two or more military policemen?
A  Yes, sir, there was.
Q  Would you give us any estimation as to how many there were altogether at that time?
A  I would say, sir, approximately four to five.
Q  Were in the living room at that point?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is it fair to say when you observed those men you saw no need for yourself to remain there?
A  No, sir, I did not stay.
Q  And did anyone order you to leave, or did you just make a judgment there was no purpose for you to be in the living room?
A  I made a judgment, sir.
Q  At that point to return to what portion of the house?
A  The utility room, sir.
Q  And who was it that told you to go to the utility room?
A  I do not know, sir.
Q  Was there, in fact, some person who did suggest to you or order you to go and stand in the utility room?
A  Yes, sir, and go out the back door, or guard the back door.
Q  Did you guard the back door from inside the utility room or outside?
A  I stayed in the utility room, sir, approximately ten to fifteen minutes, then I went out on the back porch for the rest of the time.
Q  During the period of time you were standing at this door to the utility, either inside or outside the back door, did you--can you indicate to the investigating officer how many other military police personnel came into the MacDonald house that morning?
A  I'd say approximately four, sir.
Q  Four more passed you besides the ones that you've already observed in the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now if I understand your testimony correctly, you believe there were approximately four military policemen in the living room when you left?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And when you went back did you see any other military policemen in the other bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When you took up your position in the utility room, can you estimate how many other people were in back of you or behind you, people who were still in the house?
A  I'd say approximately four in the bedroom.
Q  Four in the bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Specialist Mica would be among those, and in addition to the four in the bedroom, is it your belief that there were also about four in the living room too?
A  Yes, sir, when I went down the hallway, sir.
Q  Now, of course when you left that hallway, the front door has already been opened?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  So, if other military policemen had come in after you left, you wouldn't know about that, because you weren't there at that point?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now when you first went into the master bedroom, you indicated that there was light on in that room?
A  Yes, sir, there was.
Q  Can you tell the investigating officer what the source of that light was? 
A  I would say, sir, it was a light from overhead.
Q  You have been shown a picture by counsel for the government which I believe is A-6; have you ever seen this particular photograph before or a photograph similar to it?
A  Yes, sir, I have.
Q  When was that?
A  Approximately six or seven weeks ago, sir.
Q  And who was it who showed you a photograph like this?
A  Captain Somers, sir.
Q  Did anyone show you a photograph like this other than Captain Somers? 
A  Maybe Lieutenant Malley, sir.  I can't remember.
Q  Did you speak with Lieutenant Malley or Captain Douthat after you spoke to Captain Somers?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now you indicated in regard to Captain Somers, when questioning you, that when you initially came into the master bedroom, Captain MacDonald was lying on his side along side Mrs. MacDonald.  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  And at that time you did not observe this blue item that you are talking about.  Is that right?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Did you see Captain MacDonald's body removed from the master bedroom?
A  I saw the body removed, sir.
Q  And who moved his body?
A  Specialist Four Mica.
Q  Anybody else assist him?
A  Not until he started to give him mouth-to-mouth with Sergeant Tevere.
Q  Well, when is it that you first observed this blue cloth?
A  When I came back up the hallway, sir.
Q  When you came back up the hallway?
A  Right, sir.
Q  When you came up the hallway, where was Captain MacDonald's body?
A  Approximately right in front of the hallway, sir.  It had already been moved.
Q  He had been moved?
A  Yes, sir, he had.
Q  About how far had he been moved from his original position that you saw him?
A  Approximately five to six feet.
Q  In which direction?
A  Towards the hallway.  His head was facing down the hallway.
Q  When you originally saw his head, his head was where?
A  The first time I seen him?
Q  Yes, sir.
A  Laying on his wife's body.
Q  And then you came back from the end of the hallway toward the master bedroom, his body had moved approximately five to six feet?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And his head was now pointed in the direction, you say, of what?
A  Towards the living room, sir.
Q  At that time what did you observe with regard to the blue cloth about Mrs. MacDonald?
A  That it was laying right next to her body, sir, part of it on her body.
Q  How about the portion of this cloth which trails along side of her?  Was it in that position at that time?
A  Yes, sir, to my knowledge.
Q  Are you sure about that?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You were asked about this blue cloth, but you were not asked about another piece of cloth that appears to be on Mrs. MacDonald's body.  Can you observe a piece of white material over her midsection as I am holding now?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you see it at that time?
A  No, sir.
Q  As a matter of fact, weren't you able to see a portion of Mrs. MacDonald's midsection near that point?
A  No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q  Did you see any portion of Mrs. MacDonald's body other than her extremities, her feet?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you have any doubt in your mind, however, that you did not see this white object which appears to be a towel?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Did you ever see anybody place that on Mrs. MacDonald's body?
A  No.
Q  Have you any idea how it got to be there by the time this photo was taken?
A  No, sir, I do not.
Q  Do you know how Captain MacDonald's body came to be changed from the original position when you came in, from having his head on some portion of Mrs. MacDonald's body to the position where you observed his head pointing down the hall?
A  Specialist Four Mica had pulled him away from his wife.
Q  Did you actually see Mica pull him away?  How did you conclude that that is what happened to Captain MacDonald's body?
A  I assumed, sir, that Specialist Four Mica had pulled him away to give him first aid.
Q  Do you remember how Captain MacDonald was dressed at that time?
A  Pajama bottoms, sir.
Q  Do you recall the color of those pajama bottoms?
A  I believe that they were blue, sir.
Q  Did he have anything else besides bottoms--pajama bottoms?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now when you left the master bedroom and went down the hall did you look into the other rooms on your way down?  Did you observe anything unusual or strange in the hallway on your way to the head of the hallway?
A  No, sir.
Q  I gather by that that you did not observe anything unusual or strange on the floor or the ground?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  You made no observation of unusual objects or marking on the hall at that time?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now did you actually go down on any of the steps at the head of the hallway or stand at the top of the stairs at the hallway?
A  I stood at the top of the stairs, sir.
Q  Now, Specialist Morris, would you be good enough please to go to the chart that is located here on the easel and point out to us where you stood in the hallway near the living room?

(Witness complied.)

A  Approximately right here, sir.
Q  You are indicating toward the north wall.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now if you will turn around, please, sir, and observe the stage behind you, and assume that this is the end of the hallway, and that the place you are standing is the first step, would you indicate to us how close you came to the edge of the hallway before the step?

COL ROCK:  Request the witness just to stand up there.

Q  Would you be good enough, Specialist Morris, if you would now indicate as if that were the hallway, and that was the step at the end of the hallway, where you stood in regard to the stair.
A  Say this was the wall, I stood approximately here.
Q  Is it fair to say that you are about a foot from the step leading into the living room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now standing where you were, did you observe anything on the floor in the immediate area of the hallway where you were?
A  No sir, I did not.
Q  Do you have any doubt about that, sir?
A  No, sir.
Q  Would you have noticed anything as large as say a blanket or a robe that was lying on the floor at that point?

CPT SOMERS:  I object, that calls for a conclusion.

A  Very well.  Step down, Mr. Morris, and resume your seat, please.

(Witness did as directed.)

CPT BEALE:  Are you going to withdraw that question?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, I am not going to pursue this.

Q  Now while you were guarding the back door to the house, Specialist Morris, did you have occasion to observe the condition of the screen door, there, sir?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And what observation did you make at that time?
A  It appeared to me that the screen, right on the edge of it, had been maybe tried to push in or something.  Looked like it had been stretched a little bit.
Q  Now, was this screening material bent toward the inside of the house, or was it bent toward the outside of the house?
A  I don't recall, sir.
Q  But it was obvious to you that part of the screen material had been damaged?
A  Yes, sir, it looked like it had.
Q  Did you observe any one of the investigators or personnel assigned to assist the investigators take any photographs of the rear of the MacDonald house while you were there?
A  No, sir.  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And what time was that, Specialist Morris?
A  I'd say approximately eight o'clock that morning, sir.
Q  Now what area of the house was photographed in your presence?
A  The bush where the ice pick and knife were found laying and the club or piece of wood laying beside the porch.
Q  And when the photographs were taken was the club or piece of wood laying beside the porch?
A  I can't recall, sir.
Q  Now, how long--how long were you at the door, the back door of the house before you had occasion to notice that club outside?
A  Approximately twenty minutes, sir.
Q  I beg your pardon?
A  Approximately twenty minutes.
Q  And at that time some of the MPs were coming in and out of the house through the back door?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And it wasn't until you had been there for some time, as a matter of fact, it occurred to you that perhaps that piece of wood on the ground might have some relevance to what hap-pened in the MacDonald house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Up to that point you had not assumed it had any particular significance?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now what did you do when it occurred to you that that stick might have some relevance as to what happened in that house?
A  At that time, sir, I was walking back and forth at the back door, and a CID agent and another MP came around the corner of the house.  At that time I was walking that way and I noticed two objects laying underneath the bush.
Q  You noticed two objects under the bush?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what were the objects you noticed?
A  An ice pick and a knife.
Q  And were you walking with anyone at that time?
A  No, sir, I was not.
Q  Did you notice Sergeant Duffy anywhere in the area?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  When you saw the objects under the bush did you call it to anyone's attention?
A  Yes, sir, the CID agent had just come around the corner of the house.
Q  And do you recall who the agent was?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  You say he was with a military policeman?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know who that military policeman was?
A  Yes, sir, I do.  Sergeant Caldwell.
Q  Sergeant Caldwell?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you do in regard to these two objects that you saw in the bush?
A  I pointed them out to the CID agent.
Q  And did you observe what, if anything, they did with regard to these objects?
A  Nothing at that time, sir.
Q  Were you given any instructions regarding these objects?
A  Yes, sir, not to let anyone bother them or disturb them.
Q  And what did you do after they gave that instruction?
A  I carried out the order.  I stayed around the back.
Q  Did you move and continue looking for things on the ground or did you stand by the bush?
A  No, sir, I continued looking, then I came back and then I noticed the club--it had lighted up--and it had something dark on the end of it.
Q  Well, what did you do about not letting anyone touch the objects after you were given that instruction?
A  I just continued to guard it, sir.
Q  Well, were you guarding the objects or are you still looking on the ground for other matters?
A  I guarded and looked around, looking for other matters at the same time.  No one else was around there at that time.
Q  You mean there were no other MPs out looking for anything?
A  No, sir, not at that time.
Q  Were there any other MPs out looking for, you know, unusual items on the lawn at any time while you were there?
A  Yes, sir, there was.
Q  When did that happen?
A  This was while it was still dark.  The sun had not come up yet.
Q  Are you saying it happened before you found the--
A  This was before, right.
Q  Had you been assisting in that search before it came light?
A  No, sir, I did not have a flashlight at that time.
Q  And you were just assisting in the utility room door when you observed other MPs conducting a search of the ground?
A  This was while I was outside, sir.
Q  This was outside the utility room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Then thereafter it became more light out side and you apparently undertook a search also of the ground?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  At whose instructions was that?
A  Myself, mine, sir.
Q  In other words, there was no specific order given you?
A  No, sir, it wasn't.
Q  You thought since you were standing outside you might as well look around?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And at that point you walked toward the end of the house and saw the bush?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And without the aid of a flashlight you were able to see the ice pick and the stick?
A  Yes, sir, it was light at that time.
Q  May I ask how far apart these two items were?
A  I couldn't say, sir.
Q  Can you give us any indication at all, whether they were five inches away, five feet away from each other?  You have no idea?  We have no idea, unless you can tell us, Specialist Morris.
A  They were fairly close together, sir.  I couldn't say exactly how close.
Q  Would you indicate with your hand what you think the approximate distance they were?
A  I'd say approximately this close.  I couldn't say for sure.
Q  You mean the length of your finger?
A  Approximately three to four inches.
Q  Could it have been as much as five inches?
A  Yes, sir, it could have been five.
Q  So that's how close they were?
A  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  We are referring here to the distance between the knife and the ice pick.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  May I see the black and white photos?  (Approaching Captain Somers' desk.)

Q  Specialist Morris, did you also have occasion to observe in or about the yard area, and particularly the bush where you say you found these two items, the telephone pole? 
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And do you recall the telephone pole being close by the bush that we are talking about?
A  Yes, sir, I do.

MR. SEGAL:  I ask to have marked one of the black and white photographs that was supplied by the government this afternoon that represents to be the outside of the MacDonald house, sir.

COL ROCK:  It is marked Exhibit A-22.

Q  Specialist Morris, I would ask you to look at a photograph that has been marked A-22 for identification, and ask whether that seems familiar to you in any way?
A  Yes, sir, it does.
Q  What does that appear to represent to you?
A  It appears to represent the bush which these items were found underneath.
Q  And do you recognize this as the placement of the house, the MacDonald house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Right to the side and right behind?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is there a pole that is also depicted in this photograph?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  Now with those points of reference, could you indicate to us, and I will hold the picture up for you, where you found the ice pick?
A  Approximately right here.
Q  And approximately how close by that point did you see the stick?
A  It was next to the porch, the back porch.
Q  Now if I may, so the record will reflect what we are talking about, would you point again, please?

(Witness complied.)

MR. SEGAL:  The witness has indicated on the photograph that has been supplied by the government an area that I would say is--do you have a tape measure, James?  I would estimate two to two and a half inches from the right of the photograph, and approximately two inches from the bottom edge of the photograph.

COL ROCK:  Let's have the witness and counsel to come here so I can see this a little bit clearer.

(Witness and counsel for both sides, approached Col. Rock's desk.)

Q  Specialist Morris, would you again put your finger on the point where you found the knife?
A  Approximately right there, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I would say there is on this picture, under the bush, sir, appears to be a single leaf, and that about a half inch to the leaf of that is where Specialist Morris is pointing.

COL ROCK:  Specialist Morris, are you aware that there is an ice pick in this photograph?
Would you please point that out to him, counsel?

COL ROCK:  The ice pick is in the photograph here and the knife is not far from it.

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I see the ice pick now, sir.

Q  Does that appear to be the location, Specialist Morris, where you saw the ice pick?
A  No, sir, not at that time.
Q  Is it your recollection that it was more to the right as you have already pointed out?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  Have your seat, please.

(Witness did as directed.)

Q  Did you see anyone move either the ice pick or the stick?
A  Yes, sir, I seen them put it into a plastic bag.
Q  Which items did you see put into a plastic bag?
A  The ice pick and the knife, and the club later on.
Q  Now to be perfectly clear, were the ice pick and the knife picked up one at a time, and the other at a later time, or were all three at the same time?
A  They picked the ice pick and the knife up and then they proceeded to pick up the club.
Q  So within a moment or two after picking the first two items up the club was picked up?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you observe anything else in the way of markers being put on the ground?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was put on the ground?
A  There was some small sticks put up beside the club that was on the ground.
Q  Had the ice pick and the knife which were located at the bush been photographed to your knowledge before they were picked up and placed in plastic bags?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You observed the photographer doing that?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Was the stick on the ground or the club on the ground also photographed before they picked it up and put it in a plastic bag?
A  Yes, sir, I believe it was.
Q  To the best of your recollection, Specialist Morris, were these photographs being taken just before the items were picked up and placed in plastic bags?
A  Yes, sir.  They made one before they picked it up and then afterwards where the objects had been covered.
Q  I don't follow what you mean.  You said the objects had been covered?
A  The ice pick and the knife had been covered with a box to keep the rain off of it, I believe.
Q  How long had that happened before the--they were photographed?
A  Approximately a half hour, sir.
Q  Do you know who did that?
A  The CID agents.
Q  And was the stick likewise covered?
A  I don't recall, sir.
Q  Were the pictures taken before the boxes were placed on the items?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And then they came around, I gather from what you are saying, removed the box, and put those two items in a plastic bag, or did they take another picture again?
A  To my knowledge, they took another picture of the box underneath the bush.
Q  And then the box was removed, did they take--did they take again a picture of the knife and the ice pick on the ground?
A  No, sir.  To my knowledge, they had taken the picture of the ice pick laying under the bush first, and then the box was placed on top of it.
Q  Was the board still lying in its position when these pictures were being taken?
A  Yes, sir, when the pictures were taken.
Q  That was before the box was placed on the ice pick?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  It was half an hour before they came around and picked up all the items and put them in plastic bags?
A  I would say so, sir.
Q  Specialist Morris, while you were standing in the vicinity of the back porch, did you observe anything unusual on the back steps?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer what you observed?
A  It appeared to me--like paint or some object had faded into the back porch.  I couldn't say exactly what it was.
Q  Did you also think initially it might have been blood as well as paint?
A  Yes, sir, it could have been blood.
Q  And that you actually don't have any personal knowledge whether it was paint or it was blood?
A  No, sir, I don't.
Q  Was it a dark substance that was on the back steps?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did it appear to be relatively recent or fresh in anyway?
A  No, sir, it did not.
Q  Could you give us some description of the stick you saw lying out on the back porch?
A  It was approximately this long.
Q  You are holding your hands apart indicating roughly two feet?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what about it can you describe?
A  It had some dark object on it, maybe blood or paint or something.
Q  And did that appear to be moist or wet on the stick?
A  I couldn't tell, sir.
Q  Did you actually ever examine the stick closely?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  How about the stick?  Did you observe anything on it such as splinters?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were the ends of the stick sawed off neatly or were one of more of the ends broken?
A  I couldn't say, sir.
Q  Specialist Morris, at any time in the connection with the investigation of this case, were you interviewed by Captain Thompson, a military legal officer?
A  Yes, sir, I was with Captain Somers.
Q  It was Captain Somers, or with Captain Somers?
A  With Captain Somers.
Q  And at that time were you shown--you say some of the pictures of the master bedroom?
A  Yes, sir, I was.
Q  Now I want to show you a photograph marked A-5 again, and at this time I direct your attention to the bed which appears depicted in this scene, and ask if you will describe the sheet on this bed and the mattress on the bed?
A  The sheet on the corner looked like it has been folded back, and part of the sheet lying on the floor.
Q  And it exposed a portion of the mattress and the box springs?
A  Yes, sir, it does.
Q  Were you shown a photograph like this or this particular photograph?
A  Yes, sir, I was.
Q  And you were also shown another photograph of the body of Mrs. MacDonald which depicted the sheet on the bed in a different fashion?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And how was the sheet depicted in the other photograph you were shown?
A  They were laying back down covering the mattress.
Q  You say they, you mean the sheet?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  So in the photograph you were shown neither the mattress nor the box springs were exposed as they are in this particular photograph.  Would you tell the investigating officer how you recall the sheets were on that bed in the MacDonald's house on that morning?  In the manner seen here in A-5?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And when you were shown another photograph which had the sheets covering the mattress and box springs, was Mrs. MacDonald's body there in the photograph also?
A  I don't remember, sir.
Q  You don't recall that her body was there?
A  No, sir.
Q  You do recall the portion of the sheet though?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  Were you asked at any time which condition was the correct one so far as your observation was when you came in the bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you indicate the one where the sheets were back as the correct one?
A  Yes, sir, I did.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further at this time, sir.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Specialist Morris, you say you were guarding the ice pick and the knife?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you allow the ice pick or the knife to be moved before they were put in the bag?
A  No, sir.
Q  And you say you remember some sticks being put in the ground next to this one stick?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  Were those sticks put there before or after the stick was picked up?
A  Before the stick was picked up, sir.
Q  Yes, it was before or after that?
A  It was before.
Q  Do you know what the purpose of those sticks were?
A  To mark it, sir, the exact place where it was laying.
Q  You did not allow the knife or ice pick to be picked up?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Until such time they were put in the bag?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were you actually involved in the process of taking pictures?
A  No, sir, I wasn't.
Q  Were you consulted in the business of the taking of those pictures?
A  No, sir, I wasn't.
Q  Have you ever seen the pictures that were taken of the outside?
A  No, sir, I haven't.
Q  Can you say for sure how many pictures were taken?
A  No, sir, I cannot.
Q  Can you say for sure what was in those pictures?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Nothing further.

COL ROCK:  May I see those black and white photographs--I believe two of them showing the ice pick.

CPT SOMERS:  You want those who are not marked now, sir?

COL ROCK:  The ones that we have been using here recently.  The one that is marked and the two that are not.

(The IO was handed the photographs.)

COL ROCK:  Specialist Morris, I have several questions I want to ask with relationship to time and sequence of actions.  I am a little bit confused.  Do you know approximately what time it was when you reached the house the first time, that is when you drove up when you were on patrol?  Did you have occasion to look at your watch?

WITNESS:  Well, sir, I'd say somewhere after 3:30.

COL ROCK:  Okay, now you testified that someone said go around to the rear, or go to the back door, you went to the back door and looked in and saw two people on the floor.

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did you go through the back door to see the bodies?  That is, did you go into the house?

WITNESS:  No, sir, I did not.

COL ROCK:  You did not.  Was, to your knowledge, anyone else in the house at that time?
That is, military policemen.

WITNESS:  Not to my knowledge, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you think you were the first person of the military police that observed the bodies?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  When you saw the bodies, what did you do next?

WITNESS:  It just stunned me, sir.

COL ROCK:  Right.

WITNESS:  And then about that time the rest of the MPs came up behind me.

COL ROCK:  So that's when Sergeant Tevere got into the act?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Who first went into the house as far as you know?

WITNESS:  I can't say, sir.

COL ROCK:  Roughly how many people went into the house before you went in?

WITNESS:  I'd say four to five, sir.

COL ROCK:  Approximately how long were you in the living room area or the steps, or adjacent to the steps there in the hallway?

WITNESS:  Just a few minutes, sir, a few seconds, sir.

COL ROCK:  After you came back down the hallway, into the master bedroom area, did you see either in the hall looking into a bedroom or did you stand in the master bedroom?

WITNESS:  Sir, I went through the master bedroom to the utility room.

COL ROCK:  To the utility room.  All right, approximately how long would you estimate you were guarding the rear door before you stepped out and went around the bush?

WITNESS:  You mean while I was out on the back porch?

COL ROCK:  While you were on the back porch guarding, how long did you guard from that location, until such time as you stepped off to go down to the bush, where you saw the object?

WITNESS:  Approximately an hour, approximately when the sun light came out and it started getting light.

COL ROCK:  I see.  So in fact when you went down to view those two objects it was light enough from the sky that you could see them?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, it was.

COL ROCK:  When you were out there guarding on the back porch, did you see any military police with flashlights looking around?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I did.

COL ROCK:  Did you hear anyone say that they had seen those two objects, that is, the ice pick and the knife before you saw them?

WITNESS:  No, sir, I did not.

COL ROCK:  Did you think you were the first person to see those objects?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  But there was enough light from the sky for you to see them?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, there was.

COL ROCK:  How much sunlight was there--when I say sunlight, I realize perhaps you could not have seen the sun--how much light was there or had it gotten as light as it would be on a normal morning?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Or just barely light, or how would you describe it?

WITNESS:  About halfway light.

COL ROCK:  About halfway light.  During the time you were guarding the rear entrance from your location there on the back stoop; did you notice anyone coming out of the house from the other rear door, a little bit further down to the direction of the living room area?

WITNESS:  Another back door, sir, to the house?

COL ROCK:  Right.

WITNESS:  No, sir, I didn't.

COL ROCK:  Are you sure there is another back door?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel desire to elicit questions?

CPT SOMERS:  None by the government.

MR. SEGAL:  I have none, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are advised that you discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.  You are excused subject to recall.
Do you understand these instructions?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

(Witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  At this time I would like to take a five minute recess in place while the legal advisor can check to determine what action has been taken on your request to the Judge Advocate General.

(The hearing recessed at 1626 hours, 9 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1643 hours, 9 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties that were present at the recess beginning are now present.  I am now prepared to make a ruling on the question of an open hearing.  I wish to inform both counsel that a decision has been reached on the defense request that an exception of paragraph 4, Army Regulation 345-60, be granted in accordance with paragraph 4c(3) concerning opening these proceedings to members of the press and the public.  The Judge Advocate General has stated it is his opinion that my actions which closed these proceedings is consistent with the provisions of the applicable regulation.  Furthermore, this Department of the Army message does not state that an exception to this rule was granted.  My appointing authority, Major General Flanagan, has stated that he believes these hearings should remain closed to the public.  Therefore these proceedings will remain closed to the press and the public until further notice.  Concerning the defense request that Mrs. MacDonald be permitted to attend, in accordance with the Department of the Army message and the recommendation of my appointing authority, I do deem it appropriate to permit Mrs. MacDonald to be in attendance at these proceedings.  For defense information, a copy of all relevant correspondence reference these matters is now provided.
Provided to you in a letter to me from Major General Flanagan, a copy of the original message from Major General Flanagan's headquarters to Department of the Army, attention Judge Advocate General, and the reply from the Judge Advocate General.  The copy of the message from Major General Flanagan to the Judge Advocate General, I have it only in one copy.  I request that after you have viewed it and made a copy, would you please return that one to me.
    Are there any further matters to be brought before this hearing today?

MR. SEGAL:  One matter, sir, in view of the testimony of Specialist Morris, in regard to photo-graphs of the wooden stick that had been previously referred to, I would renew again my request that the prosecution be made to provide to this investigation and to counsel for the accused copies of photographs showing this stick in position as observed by the investigators and as photographed by them.

CPT SOMERS:  I have assured this hearing before and I assure it again that no such photo-graphs exist and the man who directed the taking of the photographs will testify here.

COL ROCK:  This satisfies me that no such photographs exist.  It is entirely conceivable that Specialist Four Morris could have misconstrued the number of photographs or which ones had been taken.  Are there any other matters to be brought?

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Nothing by the government, your honor.

COL ROCK:  We will adjourn until 0830 tomorrow morning.

(The hearing adjourned at 1648 hours, 9 July 1970.)

(The hearing reconvened at 0840 hours, 10 July 1070.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that Captain Douthat is not present with the accused, nor is Mr. Segal.  I'd like to ask at this time whether the accused is ready to proceed without the presence of Mr. Segal.

CPT MacDONALD:  Yes, I am, sir.

COL ROCK:  Is Counsel for the government prepared with the next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, the government calls Warrant Officer Kalin.

(CW3 Donald L. Kalin was called as a witness by the government, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you state your name, please?
A  Donald L. Kalin.
Q  Your grade?
A  CW3.
Q  Your organization?
A  573d Personnel Service Company.
Q  Your station?
A  Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  And your armed force?
A  U. S. Army.
Q  Mr. Kalin, on the 17th of February of this year, what was your residence address?
A  542 Castle Drive.
Q  And is 542 Castle Drive adjacent to 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  Would you describe for me please the relationship between the two apartments?
A  The apartments are adjoining each other.  Our living room is right next to their living room.
Q  How about the front porch?
A  The front porch is a common front porch; both front doors are right next to each other.
Q  And where are your bedrooms in relationship to the MacDonald apartment?
A  Two bedrooms are over my living room and dining room.  The other two bedrooms are over Captain MacDonald's living room and dining room area.
Q  How long have you lived at that address?  Or how long had you lived there in February?
A  Since June of 1969.
Q  Did you know the MacDonald family?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  How long had you known them?
A  From September of last year.
Q  And could you recognize the members of that family?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I ask you, if you will, sir--wait, let me retract that.  In the morning of 17 February, were you requested to identify some people in the MacDonald residence?
A  Yes, sir, I was.
Q  And who requested you to do that?
A  CID Investigator, Mr. Ivory.
Q  Now, if you will, sir, would you please come up to this easel on which Government Exhibit 1 rests?  Look, please, sir, at the Government Exhibit 1 and familiarize yourself with it.

COL ROCK:  Please have the witness stand to one side so that counsel and the accused can see.

Q  Now, Mr. Kalin, stand over on the left side, if you will, please.  Do you recognize what this represents?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What does it represent?
A  Captain MacDonald's quarters, next to mine.
Q  Now, sir, did you in fact go into 544 Castle Drive on the morning of 17 February and identify some people?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Would you describe for us, sir, how you did this?
A  I went in the front door down the hall.  The first room I went into was the bedroom on the left, which is labeled the rear bedroom.
Q  How far did you go into that bedroom?
A  Approximately four or five feet.
Q  I see, and what did you do there?
A  From there I went into this bedroom, the front bedroom.
Q  If I may, what did you do in the rear bedroom?
A  I'm sorry, I identified the youngest daughter, Kris.
Q  How much of Kris could you see?
A  About the neck up.
Q  And did you have any difficulty making this identification?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  What did you do after you had done that?
A  I left this room and went to the front bedroom.
Q  And how far did you go into the front bedroom?
A  About the same distance, four to five feet.
Q  And what did you do there?
A  I identified the oldest daughter, Kimberly.
Q  How much of Kimberly could you see?
A  About the same, from the neck up.
Q  Did you have any difficulty with this identification?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  What did you do then?
A  Then I went down to the master bedroom and I identified Mrs. MacDonald.
Q  And did you have any difficulty with that identification?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Would you return to your seat?

(Witness did as requested.)

Q  Mr. Kalin, do you know approximately what time you went to bed the evening of the 16th of February?
A  Between ten and ten-thirty of that evening.
Q  And of the four bedrooms described, which one is yours?
A  Our bedroom is above my living room.
Q  I see.  Were you awakened by any unusual disturbances during that night?
A  No, sir, not until early in the morning.
Q  And what happened early in the morning to awaken you?
A  I heard a lot of loud banging.  I thought it was at my front door.
Q  And do you know who was making that banging?
A  When I got to the front door I saw MPs there.
Q  The MPs were making it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Prior to the time that the MPs awakened you, you hadn't been awakened by anything else?
A  No, sir, I hadn't.

CPT SOMERS:  Your witness.

MR. EISMAN:  Would your honor indulge me just a second?  I have a notary public in the back to sign some papers.

COL ROCK:  We'll take a five minute recess.

(The hearing recessed at 0848 hours, 10 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0854 hours, 10 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties that were in attendance prior to the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Will counsel for the accused please proceed.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you, sir.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Mr. Kalin, you testified that you first met the MacDonalds in, I believe you said September of 1969.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what was the occasion, the first occasion upon which you met Captain MacDonald's family?
A  The first occasion I met Captain MacDonald was--he borrowed my lawn mower to cut his grass.
Q  And the period of time between that occasion and the morning of February 17th, 1970, did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald and his family in the course of their living next door to you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to go into the house of Captain MacDonald at any time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you see Captain MacDonald there and his wife and children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you see Captain MacDonald on other occasions other than living next door to him or coming in socially?
A  On about four occasions I was over next door, yes, sir.
Q  In the course of your knowledge of the MacDonald family, did you ever see Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald have a violent argument?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald become enraged or in anyway attempt to harm his children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Captain MacDonald do something which you considered to be improper as a father or husband?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  We have no idea what he might consider to be improper.  It calls for a conclusion.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase your question, counsel.

Q  What would you say Captain MacDonald's relations were with his wife and children?
A  Just great.

COL ROCK:  I'm sorry.

A  Just great, sir.
Q  Did you ever see the MacDonalds have any wild parties?  Or become unruly or disorderly?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever see Captain MacDonald or Mrs. MacDonald strike their two children?
A  I did not.
Q  Was there anything around the winter of 1969, any incident which particularly sticks in your mind with regard to Captain MacDonald and his relations with his wife and children which you particularly recall at this time which might shed some light on the relationship he had with his wife and children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you recall anything around Christmas time of 1969 with regard to Captain MacDonald and his children which he had occasion to discuss with you?  Or that Mrs. MacDonald had discussed with you?
A  Regarding a special event around Christmas?
A  Oh, yes, sir.
Q  What was that?
A  The horse.
Q  When you say the horse, what are you referring to?
A  Captain MacDonald told me he had a surprise for the children around Christmas time.  He had bought a, I believe it was a Shetland pony.
Q  And what was his attitude towards that, at that time?
A  He was very excited about it, because it was a surprise for the kids at Christmas.
Q  And did he discuss the matter with you about how he felt this would affect the children and his wife?
A  Well, he thought they would all enjoy it.
Q  Did you subsequently learn whether or not that was the case?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Did you have occasion again to discuss the matter with the MacDonalds?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you see Captain MacDonald play with his children as a good father would when he was home?
A  I did, yes, sir.
Q  Now on the night in question, or the morning in question, would you say that you were sleeping--how would you say you were sleeping in reference to soundly, lightly, or if you can recall?
A  Well, I sleep very soundly, fairly soundly, yes.
Q  Now while you didn't hear anything after this incident occurred isn't it a fact that in discussion with both your wife and daughter that they told you in these discussions that they had heard unusual things on that night?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.

CPT BEALE:  What are your grounds?

MR. EISMAN:  I'm not asking for the truth or falsity of the statement or what they said.  It is just that counsel for the government has opened up a field to indicate to the investigating officer that there were no unusual noises, and I would not want the impression created in his mind that because Warrant Officer Kalin was sleeping soundly that night, that other members of the family might have heard.

CPT BEALE:  I think it would be proper for this witness to respond to this question with a yes or no answer, then if you'd care to bring out the substance of those statements in the best evidence that would be the wife and children.  So the objection is sustained to that extent.

Q  I believe the question was, and all you can answer is yes or no, did you have an occasion after February 17th, after the morning of February 17th to discuss the events of that night, and isn't it a fact that both your wife and daughter told you they heard noises coming from the MacDonald house?

CPT SOMERS:  I'll object to that.  He has supplied the answer which he was told he may not give.

CPT BEALE:  That's sustained.  You may ask this witness whether or not he had an occasion to discuss with his wife and/or children, discuss the fact whether or not they did hear anything, period.   Now the substance of what they said you will have to bring them in if you care to establish that later.

MR. EISMAN:  Yes, sir.

Q  All right, did you have occasion to discuss the matter with your family?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you ever see any unusual people visiting the MacDonalds socially?
A  No, sir.
Q  When I say unusual, I mean people who might be described as hippies.
A  No, sir.
Q  What were the type of people you saw visiting?
A  The people I saw were just average people.
Q  Were people both in uniform and out of uniform?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Mr. Kalin, how old are you?
A  I am forty-one, sir.
Q  Was your relationship with the MacDonald family one of--that of--would you characterize your relationship with the MacDonalds as one of good neighbors rather than close friends?
A  Good neighbors.
Q  And would you say the reason that you probably were not close personal friends probably was the fact that Captain MacDonald and his wife were much younger and had other friends and you had your own circle of friends at the time?
A  Yes.
Q  Therefore, the testimony you are giving today--or is the testimony you are giving today in any way clouded with any ties of close personal friends with either Captain MacDonald or his family?
A  No, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, your honor, I would like to request a five minute recess.  Among other things, I have got to arrange to bring my next witness who is a doctor and whom I have to bring from duty.  I would like to recess for that purpose and consider whether I wish to redirect.

COL ROCK:  Do you have any further questions of this witness?

CPT SOMERS:  Well, I may and I may not, sir, but I thought perhaps if we could just break now, and I arrange for this witness, and then I could conduct what redirect we have.  We would interfere--

COL ROCK:  Well, the point is you have a law assistant there.  Can't he arrange for your next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  He could, except for the fact that he is not familiar with the area that I have got to dispatch a car to get this witness.

COL ROCK:  I would much prefer to proceed with this witness and then take the five minute recess.

CPT SOMERS:  That's fine, sir, if you prefer that.

COL ROCK:  All right go ahead.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Mr. Kalin, did you testify that you were in the MacDonald house socially about four times?
A  Four or five times, yes, sir.
Q  Do you know what form of address Captain MacDonald used for his wife?  Did he call her Colette or Honey or Dear or just what did he--
A  Either Honey or Colette.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Captain MacDonald discipline his children?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Mrs. MacDonald discipline her children in any matter?
A  Yelled out the door a few times.
Q  How would you characterize the discipline of the family?  Would you characterize it as permissive or strict or how would you characterize it?
A  From what I saw I would say in-between strict and permissive.
Q  And why would you say that?  You seem to be describing something that's permissive, so tell us what it is?

MR. EISMAN:  I'm going to object to that characterization.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Would you tell us why you characterize it as being in-between permissive and strict?
A  Well, on occasion I did see the kids would be playing outside, and playing dolls or school or house; sometimes they'd be in and out many times within a few minutes, and she'd say stop running in and out, and other times it didn't seem to bother her.
Q  How did the children respond; did they respond well?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you tell us what was the apparent relationship between Mrs. MacDonald and the children?  I'm sure that--well, as between very, very, very close as some families are, or less close?  Can you give us some kind of characterization?
A  I'd say pretty close, sir.
Q  Now how about between the children and the doctor, Captain MacDonald?
A  About the same.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions.  Thank you very much.

COL ROCK:  I have several questions.
    You stated, I believe, that you had been in the MacDonald house socially four or five times.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  By that term do you mean at perhaps cocktail parties or dinner or under what conditions was it?

WITNESS:  No, sir, just come over and we come and we'll have a couple of drinks, little gab session.

COL ROCK:  Just very informal?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And did you have occasion to invite the MacDonalds to your home on the same general situation?

WITNESS:  Once, sir.

COL ROCK:  Approximately how long an interval of time occurred from the knocking sound that you heard on the door until the time the military police requested that you come in and identify the victims?

WITNESS:  I'd say about forty-five minutes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Approximately forty-five minutes.  Was Captain MacDonald present in the house at the time you identified the victims?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you recall whether when you went to bed that night lights, exterior lights were on in the front of the house or in the rear of the house, either or both?

WITNESS:  Well, I always check my lights, sir.  I'm sure the front porch light was on.  I'm not sure about the back lights.

COL ROCK:  Those are all the questions I have.  Does either counsel have any additional questions?
 
MR. EISMAN:  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  None by the government, sir.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Kalin, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than either counsel.   Do you understand this?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Now it is my understanding that Mr. Kalin has a permanent change of station orders?

CPT SOMERS:  That is correct, sir, and because of his permanent change of station orders it is our present intention to call his daughter as a witness somewhat out of turn and permit him to depart when he is scheduled to depart.

COL ROCK:  Now the reason I am asking this question is because I am assuming, and I want to be certain that both counsel realize that they are departing the area and hopefully he will not have to be recalled.

MR. EISMAN:  I see no reason why Mr. Kalin would have to be recalled.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, Mr. Kalin.

(Witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  Does counsel now wish a five minute recess?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, it is probably going to take me more than that, fifteen minutes.  I've got to dispatch a sedan and bring the witness back.

COL ROCK:  Fine, we'll take a recess for fifteen minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 0912 hours, 10 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0940 hours, 10 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.   Let the record reflect that the parties who were present at the beginning of the break are currently in the hearing room, with the addition of Captain Douthat.  Would counsel for the government proceed?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, the government calls Captain Neal.

(Captain William P. Neal was called as a witness by the government, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by Captain Somers:
Q  What is your name, please?
A  William P. Neal, sir.
Q  Your grade, sir?
A  Captain.
Q  Your organization?
A  Womack Army Hospital.
Q  Your station?
A  Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  Your armed force?
A  Army.
Q  What degree do you have, sir?
A  Doctorate of Osteopathy.
Q  Have you done an internship, sir?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did you do that?
A  Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Ohio.
Q  Where are you licensed to practice medicine?
A  Ohio, Kentucky and Florida.
Q  What branch of the Army are you in?
A  Medical Corps, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I tender to the investigating officer this witness as an expert in the field of medicine.

COL ROCK:  What is osteopathy or whatever the word is?

CPT SOMERS:  Would you like to explain that a little bit?

WITNESS:  It is a school of medicine that was begun some one hundred years ago and is directly related to the American Osteopathic Association.  We are licensed and accepted as sufficient in most states in the United States.

COL ROCK:  And specifically, what does that science deal with, what part of the body, in what fashion?

WITNESS:  In all aspects of medicine, sir--dealing in manipulation, which is the muscular skeletal system.

CPT SOMERS:  If you'd like, sir I can expand on this some more.

COL ROCK:  I'd appreciate it if you would.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Does the Army recognize you as the equivalent of an MD?  When you are licensed to practice medicine is it the same as an MD?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you say you are licensed to practice medicine in three states?
A  That's correct.
Q  In each state is that license the same as that of an MD?
A  There are different boards in one of the states--the state of Florida.
Q  However the license itself –
A  The license itself entitles me to practice medicine.
Q  And do osteopaths have such specialties as pathology and radiology as MD's do?
A  Yes, we do.
Q  Isn't it true, doctor, that osteopathy, or osteopaths and MD's practice medicine in much the same way, with one distinction of the additional discipline of manipulation?
A  That is correct.

COL ROCK:  I am satisfied.

MR. EISMAN:  Just a matter of procedure, at this time since there will be other expert witnesses, do I understand the procedure to be that the government will be permitted to question the witness, or their potential as far as qualifications, and that if I saw fit to question the witness as far as his qualifications I would be given opportunity?

COL ROCK:  Absolutely.

MR. EISMAN:  At this time I have no questions so far as qualifications.  I just want to--

COL ROCK:  Yes, very definitely.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no questions as far as qualifications.

COL ROCK:  Please proceed.

CPT SOMERS:  You do then accept him as an expert witness?

COL ROCK:  Yes, please proceed.

Q  Doctor Neal, what was your duty on the night of 16 and 17 February this year?
A  I was professional officer of the day at the emergency room at Womack Army Hospital.
Q  And did you have an occasion to be called to go to 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  For what purpose were you to go there?
A  To pronounce bodies dead.
Q  And did you go to that address?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  About what time was that?
A  About 4:30 in the morning.
Q  Now, doctor, I ask you if you will come up to this easel and look, sir, at Government Exhibit Number 1, which is a floor plan.

(Witness complied.)

Q  Now, sir, if you will stand right here on the left side--do you recognize this?
A  Yes, this is basically the floor plan of the house we entered.
Q  Very good.  You did enter this house.
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Were you met by someone?
A  Yes, sir, I was at the front door.
Q  And you were conducted around the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you in fact pronounce some bodies dead in this house?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  In what order, if you will tell us, did you pronounce them dead and also if you will point out your route on this floor plan.
A  Yes, sir.  We pronounced the body of the little girl in this bedroom first.
Q  You say this bedroom.  Are you referring to the rear bedroom?
A  The rear bedroom, yes, and then we moved to the master bedroom where we pronounced the body of a female adult, and to this bedroom where we pronounced the body of another child, female.
Q  All right, now, if you will, will you describe for us, please what you did in discerning that the body in the rear bedroom was dead and tell us, if you can, please, sir, what your clinical estimate of cause of death was?
A  Yes, we checked the pupilla dilation, we checked the peripheral pulses and the heart tones and lung sounds.  We heard nothing.  We palpated no pulses and the pupils were dilated.  The body had multiple stab wounds on the chest and on the back.  We presumed those to be the cause of death.
Q  I see.  Now if you will explain the same thing about the body that you encountered in the master bedroom.
A  Yes, we again checked the peripheral pulses, pupilla dilatation and the heart tones and lung sounds, and again we had negative findings.  The cause of death appeared to be multiple stab wounds to the chest, face and head.
Q  I see, and again if you will explain what you did in the front bedroom with the body.
A  Yes, we checked the pupilla dilatation.  We checked for peripheral pulses and for heart and lung sounds and the cause of death appeared to a heavy blow to the head although there were stab wounds in the neck and chest, on this child in this bedroom.
Q  The front bedroom?
A  Yes.
Q  You may return to your seat.

(Witness did as requested.)

Q  Were the bodies identified to you?
A  Yes they were.
Q  Do you know what the names were?
A  The girl in the rear bedroom was named Kristen.  The girl in the front bedroom was named Kimberly, and Mrs. MacDonald was in the rear bedroom.

CPT SOMERS:  Your witness.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Doctor Neal, do you know the time which you arrived at the MacDonald household?  If you can recall.
A  Approximately--the definite time, no.
Q  Now you testified you made several, took several medical procedures in which to determine whether or not the people you examined were deceased.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  You testified first of all that you looked into the pupils or what exactly did you do regarding the pupils of the eyes?
A  We simply took note of the amount of dilatation of the pupil.  This is just an observation on the part of a physician, opening the eyelids and view the pupil itself.
Q  Now, in order to open the eyelids, as you recall on the first child, Kristen MacDonald, did you have occasion to touch the--touch the eyebrow or the eyelid?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Now in addition to checking the pupils, I believe you testified that you also checked the peripheral pulses.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Please explain this, doctor, exactly what you mean by peripheral pulses.
A  Any pulse other than over the heart itself, the carotid pulse and the radial pulse.
Q  The carotid pulse is located where?
A  In the neck and the radial pulse is in the arm.
Q  And you testified that you checked, I believe, the heart for sounds of life there?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And how did you do that?
A  With a stethoscope.
Q  Were there any other procedures which you recall taking in regard to body sounds?  Or regard to pronouncing death?
A  No.
Q  Now, doctor, was anyone with you at the time you did this?
A  There was a CID agent with me.
Q  Now I am going to show you a photograph, which has not yet been marked.  First let me ask the investigating officer to assign this a number.

COL ROCK:  This will be A-23.  Would you please show that to--

MR. EISMAN:  I was going to show this, but in order to keep the sequence in the same order which the witness testified to, if I may show him the rear bedroom first, it might at least keep things in sequence.

Q  I show you a photograph marked A-11, which I believe has been identified as a photograph of the rear bedroom and ask you whether you can identify this photograph.
A  Yes, that is a picture of the girl that was lying in the rear bedroom.
Q  Now when you arrived at the scene, and had occasion to examine the child, would you please indicate what pulses you had occasion to take?
A  Yes, we checked the carotid pulse in the neck and the peripheral pulse in one of the arms to determine at this time.
Q  Now you also had occasion to check the heart with a stethoscope?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Can you recall whether or not you had occasion to, in order to get to the heart, possibly move the body in any way?
A  Yes, we had to move the body.
Q  And in order to check the pupils, according to this photograph would you have had to move the body so that we--you could get a better look?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Would it be fair to say that this photograph, if this was taken after the time you examined the child would not portray the child in the exact position she was when you examined her?
A  This is the position of the child before I examined her.
Q  Before you examined her?
A  Yes, sir.  I don't know what position she was in afterwards.
Q  You mean there was photographs taken before you examined her?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you were only permitted to examine the child after the photographs were taken?
A  Yes.
Q  Up until that time had any examination been taken of this child to determine whether or not there were any life signs?
A  To my knowledge, no.
Q  Were you there when these photographs were taken?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  And you were told to wait to check the life signs of this child by the CID until after the taking of the photographs?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  This is the defense exhibit which was just marked.

(A-23 was shown to the IO and CPT Somers.)

Q  Let the record indicate I am showing the witness a photograph which has been marked as Accused Exhibit Number 23 by the investigating officer, and ask Captain Neal to state what he sees in this picture.  What the picture contains.
A  It contains the picture of what appears to be a female child that was noted to be in the front bedroom of the MacDonald home.
Q  In reference to this child, did you have occasion to check the life signs that you have testified before?
A  In respect to before or after the pictures were taken?
Q  First of all, did you have occasion to check the life signs?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Now in reference to the time sequence, was this before or after the pictures had been taken?
A  After the pictures had been taken.
Q  And was this also a matter in which you are requested to wait until the CID had taken this photograph before you made your examination?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  To your knowledge, had a physician examined the child for vital signs?
A  To my knowledge, no.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions at this time, but if your honor will indulge me for a moment, I might check with my co-counsel.  If the investigating officer would indulge me, I neglected to pursue certain fields of questions.  At this time let the record indicate I am showing the investigating officer a copy of a photograph, Exhibit A-17, also showing it to the government's attorney.  At this time I am presenting it to Doctor Neal and asking Doctor Neal whether he can identify what he sees in this photograph.
A  Yes, this is a picture of the adult female we discovered in the master bedroom on the night of the 17th.
Q  Now you've already testified as to the medical procedures which you followed regarding the checking of the vital life signs.  Would you tell me whether or not the time sequence was the same which you have testified that the photographs were taken first before you were permitted to examine the body?
A  Yes, sir that's correct.
Q  Now in reference to the photograph you see in this picture, after this photograph was taken did you have occasion to move the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, we rolled her over to check for any wounds in the back.
Q  At that time do you recall what happened to this blue piece of cloth, if you can recall?  If you can't recall, please tell us.
A  No, I can't recall.
Q  After the body was moved, do you know what was done with it?
A  We just rolled it up on its side and the body rolled back down on its back.
Q  And you don't know what happened or where this blue garment fell after you rolled it back?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Could it have fallen underneath the body partially?
A  I suppose it could have, yes, sir.
Q  In reference to--in reference to Accused Exhibit A-11 which is the photograph of Kristen MacDonald, Captain Neal, would you tell me whether or not, after this picture was taken, you had occasion to move Kristen MacDonald's body?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And what, if you can recall, was the movements which was necessary in order to conduct your examination?
A  I don't recall.  We again moved her to a position so that we could view the back, and to determine--
Q  Would the covers possibly have been moved from the position it was?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And the clothing moved of Kristen MacDonald also?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would the child have been reversed on the back, or first on its stomach, and then on the stomach--in other words to check--
A  Probably first on the back to check for vital signs.
Q  And after that time, actually you can't recall the exact position her body was left?
A  No.
Q  Unless you could see the photograph.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may, just for the record, request at this time if there are any photographs taken after the examination of the doctor with regard to the position of the bodies after the examination, if the government is in possession of such photographs.

COL ROCK: If the government is in possession of photographs taken of the body after the doctor had finished his examination?
MR. EISMAN:  Yes, after they had been moved, in other words.  If I might state the relevancy of that point, sir.  The reason I am asking for that is that we have reason to believe and I can represent to this court we have reason to believe that the government will attempt to introduce certain evidence later which they believe to be physical evidence which was found in a position which they believe was improper with regard to the positioning of the bodies, and from the testimony of Doctor Neal, we see that the bodies were moved at one point, at least one point when the doctor conducted his examination, and that as a result of the moving, certain of these physical evidence might have been caused to appear in a position in which they were later found by laboratory technicians.  I believe it would be necessary at this point with the investigating officer in the future to know what position these bodies were moved into in order to adequately have knowledge or have an idea as to what effect the moving of the bodies have regarding the physical evidence which I believe the government will attempt to introduce later.

COL ROCK:  The motion is denied.  I currently cannot see any reason for bring such photos to the investigating officer's attention at this time, even should such photographs exist.  Should later testimony indicate that such evidence would be beneficial to me, I will cause action to inquire as to whether such photographs do, in fact, exist.  Please continue.

MR. EISMAN:  Would the investigating officer indulge me just a moment?

COL ROCK:  Sure.

Q  In reference to photograph marked Exhibit A-17, which is the photograph of the master bedroom and the body of Colette MacDonald, would you state from your knowledge whether or not it was necessary to move the blue top in order to check for vital life signs of the heart?
A  Yes, we did, we had to move it.
Q  Can you recall as to where this--exactly--this item was placed when it was moved?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Would it be fair to say that that was not your concern at the time you were checking her vital life signs?
A  That's correct.
Q  Your primary concern was that of a medical doctor and not as to where this blue top would fall.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  Now when you checked the pulses did you check the left arm as it appears or the right arm as you can recall?
A  I was standing on the left so I did check the left arm.
Q  That would be the arm which is extended above the head.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And in checking that can you recall whether or not you had occasion to lift up the hand or arm in order to take that pulse?
A  Only just a matter of inches off the floor.
Q  But it was lifted off the floor and replaced at that time?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Can you say at this point whether or not you recall replacing it in the exact position that it was before?  That was not your concern at that time?  Your only concern was conducting your examination.
A  I made no attempt to replace the portion of the body the way it was in the beginning.
Q  Now at the time you checked the body of Colette MacDonald, had a diagram been drawn on the floor around the body by the CID?
A  I do not recall, sir.
Q  And when I say diagram I am referring to a blue line--pencil.  Do you recall seeing one?
A  I do not recall, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may approach the investigating office and ask him to--

COL ROCK:  This will be Accused Exhibit Number 24.

MR. EISMAN:  Let the record reflect that I am showing a copy of Accused Exhibit 24 to the--marked by the investigating officer--to the counsel for the government.

Q  In order to assist you in answering the last question, I am showing you a photograph of the--of what, to your knowledge, is this?
A  Simply a blood stain on the carpet.

COL ROCK:  Would you speak up?

A  A blood stain on the carpet beside a chair with a blue line, presumably an outline of a body beside a chair.
Q  Now, Captain Neal, where is that location, to your knowledge of this case?
A  In the master bedroom.
Q  And when you arrived at the master bedroom and were about to check Colette MacDonald, I believe you testified that you were informed to wait until the photographs were taken.
Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Did you see any person that you knew or identified to you as an agent of the criminal investigation division making an outline of that body?
A  No, I did not.
Q  When you had occasion to lift up the body of Colette MacDonald, do you recall seeing any such outline on the floor?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Now when you did lift up the body to examine the back for blood stains, is it possible that the pajama top or the blue object which we saw on the body fell into this area?
A  I couldn't make a statement to that effect.  I don't know where the material went.
Q  At that time were the agents of the criminal investigation division assisting you in the medical examination of the victims, or permitting you to--
A  I was performing my medical duties.
Q  Did you have anyone to assist you at that time?
A  I did not.
Q  Were they with you or next to you when you did this?
A  Yes, they were.
Q  Did they in any way pick up this blue object when you first lifted up the body?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Did they touch any physical evidence in your presence?  While you were picking up the body.
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  After you replaced the body, what did you do with reference to this one?
A  We simply left this room and went to the front bedroom.
Q  And you did not see what was done with the body of Colette MacDonald after that point?
A  No, I did not.
Q  In reference to photograph, Accused Number A-17, which displays the photograph of the body of Colette MacDonald in place, prior to the time, Captain Neal, you had an opportunity to examine it, would you tell us, please, Captain, what is this object to your knowledge on the stomach of Colette MacDonald?
A  The white object?
Q  Yes.
A  That's a towel.
Q  And did you have occasion to move that object in your examination or was it moved as a result of your moving the body of Colette?
A  It would have been moved.
Q  Did you have a possible occasion to touch it yourself?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could you have touched it after you had touched the clothes of the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  Afterwards?
Q  In other words, after you had touched her pulse on her wrist, I believe you said it was the radial pulse, and lift her up to touch her back, is it possible that you could have removed that object after that?
A  Physically removed it?
Q  No, I am not saying physically removed it.  Let me rephrase the question.  Touch that object or remove it in some way after you--
A  Yes, it would have been moved in rolling the body.
Q  In your examination of Colette MacDonald, in checking her pulse and checking her other vital life signs, before you might have touched that object, is it possible that you had some blood on your hands?
A  Yes, sir, yes, it is.
Q  Is it fair to say, doctor, that as a medical doctor, when you were called to the scene to make an identification, that your only concern was doing your medical duties and you had no interest whatsoever in any criminal aspect of the scene?  Would that be a fair statement?
A  No, not entirely.
Q  Could you please tell us what your, at that time what you felt your professional responsibilities were?
A  In determining death.
Q  In determining death.  That was your primary concern?
A  Yes.
Q  You did not allow, except when interfered by others, any other consideration other than that primary determination?
A  Not professionally, no.
Q  And you would not permit any such interference with your professional responsibility, would you?
A  No, I wouldn't.
Q  Is it possible that in addition to the left hand of Colette MacDonald you had occasion to move her right hand, or if it was moved, could it have been moved during your examination?
A  Yes, it could have been moved.
Q  Did you yourself possibly touch the area within the outline of the body as it appeared in the photograph which I showed you in the process of examining Colette MacDonald?
A  In relationship to my body touching the specific area?
Q  Yes.
A  Yes, it is possible.
Q  Do you recall specifically anytime noting that you did receive blood on your hands during this examination?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Do you recall specifically in reference to the first bedroom as you went to--in your examination, receiving blood?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you have occasion to wash your hands or scrub your hands after you did that?
A  Not at the house, no.
Q  Did you feel it necessary or of importance to wash your hands in reference to what your primary responsibilities were?  In other words, your primary responsibilities were to determine death.  Was it necessary to wash your hands in making the determination between the bodies?
A  No, it wasn't.
Q  What were you wearing on that evening?
A  I was wearing a set of Class A green Army uniform with a rain coat, and my--
Q  When you arrived at the scene for the examination did you have occasion to remove your rain coat?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  Do you remember getting any blood on your uniform or your rain coat?
A  No, I don't.
Q  But you do recall specifically receiving such blood at least on your hands?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Now, also if I may back up to the first bedroom that you examined.  Do you recall seeing a blue outline on the sheet of where the body was before you examined it?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you think when you raised the body up that you would have recalled seeing such an outline?

CPT SOMERS:  Objected to.  Calls for a conclusion.

MR. EISMAN:  I'm asking the witness whether he would recall if there is something he feels would be recalled to his attention.  If it were there I think he is capable of answering and explaining if he is unable to answer.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.  You may answer the question.

Q  Doctor, do you think you would have recalled such an outline if having been drawn there as you lifted up the body of the child?
A  I do not recall any outline.
Q  Doctor Neal--I'm sorry--Captain Neal, I am going to ask you to refer to photograph A-23, which I believe you have identified as a photograph of Kimberly MacDonald.  Is that correct?
A  Of a young female child, yes.
Q  Who was subsequently identified to you as Kimberly?
A  Yes, that is correct.
Q  If you can explain to the investigating officer what you had to do to examine each of the life signs which you have outlined, that you did do regarding this child specifically.  What would you have had to do regarding, first of all, examining the pulses of this child?
A  We would have to pull down the covers somewhat to bare the chest and we would have had to roll the child on her back.  We would have had to lift the eyelids to check for the dilatation of the pupil, and we would have had to lift the front cover to listen for the heart and lung sounds.  We would have had to roll the body over back on it side to check for wounds on the back.

COL ROCK:  Can we get out of the conditional tense into the past tense, stating, if this was what was done, I'm assuming that's what you are--this is what you did do, is that correct?

WITNESS:  That's correct, sir.

Q  So therefore you had occasion--it would have been necessary to move not only the body position but move the cover in a substantial manner in order to perform your medical duties.
Is that correct, doctor?
A  That's correct.
Q  And up until that time had you seen any agent of the criminal investigation division take any physical evidence from the bed or from the area of the child?
A  No, I did not.
Q  The only thing which you can testify today then, I assume, is that you only saw the photographs being taken before you were permitted to examine the body.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  That's the only thing you can testify to?  And in order to have examined the child, you did move the child and move the blankets in a substantial manner.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And would your testimony be the same as far as the child shown in Exhibit A-11, which you have identified as a photograph of the body of Kristen MacDonald?

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Eisman, I think this has already been established.  I think the witness has testified--

MR. EISMAN:  That was my last question in this line.

CPT BEALE:  All right.

Q  Just one more series of questions, was the stethoscope which you used on Kristen MacDonald, after you used it on her, washed or in any way or was scrubbed?
A  No it was not.
Q  And after it was used on Colette MacDonald was it washed or any way scrubbed before it was used on Kimberly MacDonald?
A  No, it was not.
Q  Is it possible that some particles of blood or some blood would have attached itself to the stethoscope during your examinations?
A  It may be possible.
Q  And could the same be true as far as any blood or fibers or other foreign objects in reference to your examination being carried from one body to another?  Is it possible?
A  Yes, it is possible.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  Counsel for the government?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Doctor Neal, you said you could approximate the time that you arrived at that house.  Would you do so?
A  Yes, sir, it was about 4:45 am.
Q  Now do you have any way of knowing whether someone checked the vital signs of these bodies before you arrived?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Did you supervise or participate in any of the evidence taking that was done by the criminal investigation agents?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Were you present at the time at all that this was done in any one of those rooms?
A  Just to the extent of having the pictures taken prior to the examination.
Q  Just the pictures?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you are not sure, I presume, what may have been done by the CID which you did not see?
A  That is correct.
Q  Did you knowingly--well, let me rephrase that.  Do you know of any specific area in any one of those rooms which you personally contaminated with blood from some other room?
A  No, I do not.
Q  This towel which was on the body of Mrs. MacDonald, and which you may have touched, do you know that you did contaminate it with her blood?
A  No, I do not.
Q  You say you rolled Mrs. MacDonald upon its side?
A  Yes.
Q  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  And then what did you do?  To replace her.
A  We just let the body roll back.
Q  Now you use the pronoun “we”; I presume you are using this in a professional sense?
A  Yes, correct, I.
Q  Do you remember any foreign objects falling or any objects falling down into the area that the body was lying and being covered by the body when you rolled it back? 
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you know that that blue material fell down in that area?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you remember seeing that blue material on her body?
A  Yes, I do.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions of this witness.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may, I have just a few questions on re-cross.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  In reference to the questions that Captain Somers asked you, is it possible that this blue object did fall in the area we have indicated as the body outline?
A  I presume that is possible.
Q  And is it possible that you did, during the course of your examination, touch the white towel and thereby place some blood on it which you might have had on your hands prior to that touching?
A  It is possible, yes.
Q  And did you, in making the examination of the master bedroom, have occasion to kneel on the floor?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  And is it possible that you knelt in the area, was in the area of the body outline while you were making your examination?
A  My clothing or my body may have touched that area, yes.
Q  Doctor, Captain Neal, would you tell me what exact time you left the premises?
A  Approximately 5:20.
Q  Approximately how long were you in the premises?
A  From 4:45 until 5:20.
Q  Approximately how many people do you recall being in there, if you can recall?  If you can't--
A  No, I can't recall.
Q  Can you give us an approximate number?
A  There was a good number of people in there, but I have no idea.
Q  Many people walking in and out as you recall?
A  I don't recall.
Q  During that time you were did you see any physical evidence being taken by the CID or the bodies being removed at all?
A  No.
Q  Approximately how much time--well, if you can, approximate how much time you spent in each room in performing your medical duties.
A  I couldn't give that approximation.
Q  Where would you say you spent most of the time in the house after you completed your medical duties?
A  I left the house immediately after I completed my duties.
Q  Would you say it took you just about the full time you were there to do your duties and after you completed them you left the house?
A  Yes, sir, right, except for the pictures.
Q  Actually how long did that take?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Could it have been more than five minutes? 
A  Yes, sir, it could have.
Q  More than ten minutes?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were you standing while the pictures were being taken?
A  I don't recall.
Q  Could it have been more than fifteen minutes?
A  I don't--I don't know.
Q  Would you please give me the instructions which you received when you arrived to perform your medical duties with regard to when you would be permitted to do them?
A  I was stopped at the front door and instructed that there was physical evidence throughout the house which could not be moved or touched, and he pointed out to me the officer or the CID agent who would be guiding me through the house.  I was requested to follow his instructions on exactly what to do.
Q  Now from the time you were waiting for the photographs to be taken did you see any other physician on the premises?
A  Not recognizable, no one that I knew.
Q  To your knowledge of this case, after reviewing your records and the records of the case, did any other doctor pronounce the bodies dead before you did?
A  I have no record on that.
Q  Did anybody, after you pulled the bed clothing down on the two children replace it, if you can recall, or did you, yourself, after--
A  I did not see anyone replace it.
Q  I am referring to the bed clothing now, the covering up of the child at all, could you have done it?
A  I saw no one replace that clothing.
Q  Could you state whether you know when you left, left the children in the exact same position and the bodies, all of the bodies, in the exact same position that you found them?  If you'd like to refer to the picture, I will give them to you, but if you can state without referring to them--
A  Please, could you restate the question?
Q  Do you know whether or not you left the bodies in the exact same position as before you examined them?
A  No, I do not.

MR. EISMAN:  I have nothing further at this time.

COL ROCK:  I have several questions.  Captain Neal, to your knowledge was Captain MacDonald in the house while you were present?

WITNESS:  Not to my knowledge, sir.

COL ROCK:  Can you from your professional knowledge, determine what type instrument probably caused the stab wounds you've described?  For instance, were they dimensions that could have been an ice pick or was it of a dimension that could have been a large sword or what would your professional--

WITNESS:  Sir, the nearest recollection I have the wounds were of an approximately a half inch in width, and from that point on I couldn't make a determination.

COL ROCK:  From your professional knowledge, could you indicate what type of instrument may have struck the blow on the child that you described in, I believe, the front bedroom?

WITNESS:  Sir, it appeared to have been a blunt instrument of some sort.

COL ROCK:  Did you remove or cause to the bodies to be removed at the time that you departed?

WITNESS:  Physically from the house, sir?

COL ROCK:  Right.

WITNESS:  No, I did not, sir.

COL ROCK:  In your professional competence, can you establish the approximate time of death?

WITNESS:  No, I cannot, sir.

COL ROCK:  How fresh was the blood?  Was the blood still flowing while you were there?  Had it begun to coagulate, or is there any way that you can describe it in layman's terms that I can get any sense from?

WITNESS:  Sir, the blood was already dried by the time I arrived at the house.

COL ROCK:  From that knowledge, how long does it take for blood to reach that stage?

WITNESS:  It varies, sir, with each individual, however, blood will begin to clot within ten to thirty seconds.

COL ROCK:  And let us establish a minimum or a maximum time for coagulation.

WITNESS:  That would be very difficult to do, sir.

COL ROCK:  It is.  Is it within the realm of possibility, you've mentioned ten to thirty seconds, is it from, say, one second to one hour or--or what?

WITNESS:  Within a minute, sir.

COL ROCK:  Within about a minute.  I have no further questions.

CPT SOMERS:  None by the government.

MR. SEGAL:  None for the accused, sir.

COL ROCK:  Captain Neal you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than either counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.  Do you understand that?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are excused subject to recall.

(The witness saluted the IO and departed the room.)

COL ROCK:  Is the government prepared with its next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir, for the reasons I have discussed, the next witness is out of order.  I presume that the next witness is here but I do need about fifteen to twenty for preparation.

COL ROCK:  All right, we will take a fifteen to twenty minute recess.

MR. EISMAN:  Could I ask who the witness is?

COL ROCK:  Yes, certainly.

CPT SOMERS:  The witness is Pamela Kalin.

COL ROCK:  We are recessed for fifteen minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1038 hours, 10 July 1970.)


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