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Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970 - Volume 15
Captain Jeffrey MacDonald

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, at this time it would be the juncture at which we would offer Captain MacDonald's testimony.  I am at the pleasure of the investigating officer--if you'd like us to proceed at this time or not.

COL ROCK:  Well, as I had indicated, I do want to see the transcripts of the tapes prior to his examination; however, I've now changed my mind.  I will do it prior to the cross-examination.  I understand that counsel for the government and counsel for the accused have agreed to an arrangement whereby I will have those made available to me prior to the cross-examination.  Is that correct?

MR. SEGAL:  We are ready to proceed that way, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  That's fine, sir.

COL ROCK:  You may proceed.  We are ready to proceed when you are, counselor.  This will be sworn testimony?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, it will be.

(Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald was called, sworn and testified as follows.)

COL ROCK:  Now, just prior to the witness speaking, I would like to have the legal advisor once again advise you of your rights against self incrimination.  Proceed, counselor.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.  Captain MacDonald, as you know, Colonel Rock read to you at the first session, the provisions of Article 31 and also advised you of your rights to counsel.  Naturally, the counsel are present here now, so the portion that I care to read or to address myself is Article 31, primarily, and it does provide that no person can be compelled to incriminate himself, that is make a statement of any type or be required to answer any questions which may tend to incriminate him unless he so desires.  And of course in your situation, no one can require you to testify in this proceeding, and your counsel has stated that you do intend to give a statement, under oath, and I want you to understand that no one can force you to do this.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Now the Article 31 further provides that no person subject to the uniform code of military justice may be interrogated or request any statement from you without informing you of the nature of the accusation against you, and in that regard you are aware of the fact that you are suspected of having committed three violations of premeditated murder in violation of the uniform code of military justice, Article 118.  Furthermore, it does provide that you are to be advised that you do not have to make any statement regarding these offenses or any particular offense that you are accused or suspected of.  And furthermore that in the event that you do elect to make a statement, that is give a sworn statement, that this statement may be used in a court-martial against you, should a court-martial result from these proceedings.  Do you understand that?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Now, let me ask you this.  Are you giving this statement, or the statement that you are about to give, is this being given of your own volition?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  No one has coerced you into making this statement?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

CPT BEALE:  No one has tried to unlawfully influence you into giving it?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Do you understand what I have just gone over with you?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Very well, and understanding this, do you desire to waive your right not to make a statement, and in the alternative make a statement for this proceedings?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Okay, very well.  It does appear that the accused does understand his rights as provide by the uniform code of military justice, and therefore--

CPT SOMERS:  Before we proceed, perhaps we'd better inquire about the absence of one of his attorneys as well.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.

WITNESS:  I have waived the presence of Lieutenant Malley.

CPT BEALE:  You waived his presence?

WITNESS:  Yes.

CPT BEALE:  The record will reflect that present now is Mr. Segal, Mr. Eisman and Captain Douthat.

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Very well, your waiver of Lieutenant Malley's presence is accepted.  Please proceed, counselor.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Please state your full name and rank?
A  Captain Jeffrey Robert MacDonald.
Q  And your organization?
A  Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces Group, 1st Special Forces, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  Captain MacDonald, did you kill your wife and children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did your wife kill your children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Where were you, Captain MacDonald, on the evening hours of February 16th, 1970?
A  544 Castle Drive.
Q  What time had you arrived on that day?
A  Initially, approximately 5 p.m.  Then we went to feed the pony with the kids.
Q  When you say we went to feed the pony, to whom are you referring?  Was your wife with you at this time?
A  No.  Kim and Kristy.
Q  What time did you return to your home on February 16th in the evening?
A  Approximately 5:30 p.m.
Q  What did you do thereafter?
A  We had dinner.  Shortly after I arrived home we had dinner together, the four of us.
Q  When dinner was finished, what did you do?
A  My wife got ready to go to classes on Fort Bragg at North Carolina--University of North Carolina.
Q  About what time did she leave the house?
A  6:15 p.m.
Q  What did you do then?
A  I put the dishes away.
Q  What time did your children go to bed?  Take your time.
A  Kristen went to bed at seven o'clock.  Kimberly went at nine o'clock.

COL ROCK:  If any time you wish to take a recess, don't hesitate to say so.

MR. SEGAL:  Let me proceed in a different fashion, if I may.

COL ROCK:  Surely.

Q  Where were you born, Captain MacDonald?
A  Jamaica, New York, October 12th, 1943.
Q  And your age?
A  26.
Q  Did you subsequently come to live in Patchogue, Long Island?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  When did you go to Patchogue, Long Island?
A  Oh--
Q  How old were you?
A  Somewhere around four or five.
Q  And how long thereafter was Long Island your home?
A  Until I went to college, 1964.
Q  What high school did you go to?
A  Patchogue Senior High School.
Q  In what activities did you participate in high school to include other than normal academic activities?
A  Football, basketball, baseball, track, Key Club, Varsity Club, Biology Club.  I was president of the class, president of the student counsel, one of the editors of the school newspaper, band, orchestra.
Q  Did you lead any of the athletic organizations?
A  Yes, sir, I was defensive captain on the football team, and co-captain of the basketball team.
Q  Where did you stand in your class in high school when you graduated?
A  Third.
Q  Approximately how large was your graduation class?
A  About two hundred.
Q  When you graduated, what college did you enter?
A  Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey.
Q  What were your financial arrangements for attending Princeton?
A  I received a thousand-dollar scholarship, and I subsequently applied for a loan through Princeton, plus I worked.
Q  How many years were you at Princeton?
A  Three years.
Q  Did you actually receive a degree from Princeton?
A  No, I did not.
Q  What were the circumstances of your leaving Princeton and going to medical school?
A  My academic standing was fairly high at Princeton, and I was married for one year.  I got married following my sophomore year at Princeton, between the sophomore and junior years, and Colette was pregnant when we were married, and so a child seven months later, and you know, the financial burdens had been hard on us to begin with, and we decided that the senior year at Princeton is mainly writing theses, and I'd already written a 96-page junior paper on a subject in biology, of no interest to the court, and my senior year would have been very repetitious.  I would have been doing work in that field.
Q  May I ask how did you gain admittance to medical school with only three years undergraduate study?
A  Some schools will accept you if your academic standing is high enough.
Q  And did you thereafter make application to Northwestern in that regard?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  That is a school which accepts qualified undergraduates who only complete three years of undergraduate school?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  Now how did you earn money when you were at Princeton to support yourself and your wife and child?
A  In the cafeteria.
Q  What did you do in the cafeteria?
A  Well, initially I was a cook, and then I became a supervisor; you know I ran a food crew in the cafeteria.
Q  Did you do anything else besides the job in the cafeteria?
A  Just off-summer work.
Q  You heard Mr. Kassab's testimony.  Is it correct in regard to your taking in lodgers and weekend roomers?
A  Yes, sir, we did.
Q  Who was responsible for taking care of that portion of your house where it was occupied by the lodgers?
A  My wife and myself.
Q  How long were you at medical school?
A  Four years, 1964 to 1968.
Q  And where did you live when you were in medical school?
A  We had three different apartments in Chicago, all within the city of Chicago.  The medical school is downtown.  It is not in Evanston, it is downtown.
Q  When you completed your medical school did you have to make any election as to the type of internship you were going to serve?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe that, please?
A  Originally, all internships used to be rotating, meaning you had three months in surgery, three months on internal medicine, three months on pediatrics, and three month on OB-GYN.
Recently, many of the hospitals are offering what is called straight internship where you begin your specialization a little earlier.  Since you can't possibly learn all those four subjects in one year, you just skim the top, and I chose a straight surgical internship.
Q  When you completed your internship, had you determined whether you wanted to undergo a residency, and if you did, in what field?
A  Yes, sir, residency in orthopedic surgery.
Q  Any particular branch of orthopedic surgery?
A  You probably mean any branch of surgery.  Orthopedics is a branch of surgery.
Q  I am referring to between treating child patients or adult patients?
A  I wasn't sure yet.  The possibility of being a pediatric orthopedic surgeon arose, which is why I ended up choosing the residency that I did.  One of the two reasons that I chose it, because they had a strong pediatric residency program in orthopedic surgery.
Q  Now when you were in medical school, Captain MacDonald, did you belong to any organizations, or were you active in any groups?
A  Yes, sir, I was the sports chairman for the fraternity athletic program that we had, which as silly as it sounds in medical school, was quite active at Northwestern.  Also, academic, Alpha Omega Alpha, which is the honorary medical society already referred to in these hearings.
Q  And the qualifications for being admitted to Alpha Omega Alpha are what?
A  They admit somewhere between 8 and 10 percent of the class each year, usually the top rank students with the qualification that they are screened by their advisors for their conduct, both medically and morally, by their preceptor.  The preceptor is the attending physician who has charge of you when you are working in the hospital as a physician for your last two years of medical school.
Q  Where did you stand in your class when you graduated medical school?
A  I believe it was 12th.
Q  Out of a class of how large?
A  One hundred thirty-four.
Q  When you completed your internship at Columbia Presbyterian, what were the alternatives that were open to you at that time?
A  I had residencies offered to me.  I could have gone into a residency or I had the service, the Army.  Not just the Army, the other services also.
Q  And what did you elect to do and why?
A  I volunteered to come in the Army because--for two reasons--well, three reasons maybe.
One was partially financial.  It was a break in training; and second of all, after an internship, everyone seemed a little stale for the first year in residency.  Residents don't work as hard as interns, so it would have been the first break with more time off but with some money coming in.  But, I also wanted to go to Vietnam.
Q  Why did you want to go to Vietnam?
A  Well, I just assumed I'd have to serve my two years sometime and as long as it was there I might as well go and spend a useful two years, rather than to spend it in medical garrison and dispensary.
Q  Now when did you enter the Army?
A  Well, it reads 27 June 1969, but actually my first day was 1 July.  They give you time to travel to your first base.
Q  And when did you report to Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A  29 August 1969.
Q  And at that time you were assigned to what unit?
A  Headquarters and Headquarters Company of 3d Special Forces Groups.
Q  And what was your capacity?
A  Well, for the first four days I was a physician, and on the fifth day I was made Group Surgeon.
Q  Did you have any other training as a physician while you were here at Fort Bragg?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe that, please?
A  Yes, I acquired a North Carolina license in medicine.  I originally had a license in medicine in New York State, and I went through the application procedure and had the interview in Raleigh, and acquired North Carolina license and moonlighted--worked in emergency rooms in the area.
Q  Was that permissible under the Army regulations to do so?
A  Yes, sir.  We had to have a letter from our commanding officer and it is permissible under Army regulations.
Q  Did you in fact have permission from your commanding officer to perform civilian medical services?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what did you do in that regard--this outside activity?
A  I moonlighted at two hospitals, Cape Fear Valley Hospital in Fayetteville and Hamlet Hospital in Hamlet, North Carolina.
Q  Did you do that at the same time or at different times?
A  Well, I started much earlier at Cape Fear Valley and worked more there, but it was concurrent, yes.  I was working both hospitals at the same time.
Q  How about in February 1970?  What were your outside medical activities?
A  Cape Fear Valley Hospital and Hamlet Hospital.
Q  On the week of February 9th, beginning February 9th, what outside civilian medical work did you do?
A  I believe I had at least one night at Cape Fear Valley Hospital that week, and from--you want the weekend also?
Q  Yes, please.
A  On Sunday, which would have been the 15th, I began a 24-hour shift at Hamlet Hospital, from 6 a.m. Sunday to 6 a.m. Monday.
Q  Now can you describe for the investigating officer what you did on that particular Sunday?
A  Yes, sir.  Hamlet's a little country hospital in a small town about sixty miles from here.  It is very quiet.  It's not at all like emergency room work that I'm used to, and I saw a total of twenty-four patients over twenty-four hours, which is hardly working, you know, most of those were in the daytime and into the early evening hours.
Q  When was the last patient you saw on Sunday, the 15th?
A  I saw a patient at approximately 11:30 p.m.
Q  And when was the last patient you'd seen prior to that one?
A  Let me just explain it.  It would be easier than being asked questions.  I saw a patient at 11:30.  I saw a patient at approximately 10 p.m. And then I received a call at about 12:30--I had already gone to bed--about 12:30 I received a call, came downstairs and saw one more patient and I went back to bed.
Q  You say you went to bed.  Where did you go to sleep?
A  We had a room with a bed and a bathroom.
Q  You mean in the hospital?
A  In the hospital.
Q  How long did the visit with the patient at 12:30 take?
A  Fifteen minutes.
Q  And thereafter what did you do?
A  On the way back to the room I checked a sick patient I had in the hospital and then I went to bed.
Q  About what time was that that you went to sleep?
A  1 a.m. on the morning of 16 February.
Q  That was early Monday morning?
A  Right.
Q  What did you do the rest of that night?
A  I slept.  The nurse awakened me at 6 a.m.
Q  And what did you do after you were awakened?
A  I got dressed and checked this one patient and then left the hospital and drove back to Fort Bragg.
Q  And when you got back to Fort Bragg what did you do and where did you go?
A  I had breakfast with my family, showered and shaved and changed into my uniform.  I went to work about--back on the post it was 0800.
Q  What were your activities with your unit on Monday the 16th?
A  At this point in time I wasn't the Group Surgeon; I was--on December 1, I officially had been transferred to the 6th Group.  On 1 January actually I was at the 6th Group and I was second in command.  I was the second senior medical officer of the group and I was Preventive Medicine Officer.  I worked in the Group Surgeon's office and I spent the day in the office seeing some people that came in with referral problems and also doing administrative matters around the office.
Q  Now what were your functions as a Group Surgeon and Preventive Medicine Officer at that time?
A  At that time as Preventive Medicine Officer I was responsible for the health and sanitation of the troops.  In garrison I didn't have that much work to do.  We did make inspections of the mess halls and the latrines and the barracks and we filled certain health reports in, the monthly venereal disease report and command report went in every month, plus I personally ran a fat man's program, and I did most of Captain Hiestand's counseling.  Captain Hiestand was my Group Surgeon--H-i-e-s-t-a-n-d.
Q  When you say counseling, what was that referring to?
A  The Group Surgeon usually, unless we are short of doctors, really doesn't see any patients except problem patients or a problem arising at Womack Emergency Room are fairly frequent, and we have an upset soldier or his family, and the Group Surgeon handles those also.  The drug abusers and the fat man's program, and any--anyone wondering about his profile or thinking he wasn't getting good treatment over at the dispensary, would come up for referral for discussion of the problem.
Q  And Captain Hiestand would refer those matters to you for handling?
A  Yes.
Q  Now you made some reference in your role as Preventive Medicine officer that required you have some contact with a drug abuse program.  What actually were the assignments or the duties of the Preventive Medicine Officer in regard to drug abuse?
A  There aren't any official assignments.  I really had nothing officially to do with drug abuse, except I ended up seeing the referrals that came into the office for that reason.
Q  How is it they came to be referred to you?
A  Well, Captain Hiestand--two things--one, he really didn't like to counsel patients, to be perfectly frank, and second of all, he was involved in setting up a training program for the medics, and I was involved in it also, but he was heading it, and he was working a long number of hours on the training program for the medics and we just decided that I would see the referrals.
Q  Now when you say referrals, were these referrals on the drug abuse program that you are talking about, or all referrals?
A  All referrals.
Q  He did not retain any of that activity for himself at that particular time?
A  Oh, he did.  If I wasn't in the office and a patient came in, he would see them and counsel them, but I was in the office a lot more than he was, because he was setting up this training program, and I ended up seeing, by far, the majority of these people.
Q  Now, what was it that you did in regard to soldiers who were referred to you under the drug abuse program?
A  Well, this is difficult for a doctor in the Army because you have two masters, so to speak. You really--you don't have a physician/client relationship, physician/patient relationship that you are used to as a civilian, and you want to maintain that, but you also have a duty--I mean the fact that I'm an Army doctor means that I am here really for the Army's benefit, and I certainly wouldn't think of sending someone under the influence of drugs into the field under a combat situation, or where you or he had to make a combat or command decision, so you have two masters, and you have to decide, when you talk to a person, how you are going to handle their problem.
Q  How did you resolve the problem?
A  Well, in most cases I tried to elicit the help of his commanding officer, the Chaplain, and first and foremost the Group--the Center Psychiatrist, Major Ryder.
Q  So then I gather that you are saying that if a man had a drug abuse problem you made this problem known to these persons you've just indicated?
A  Sometimes, not always.  If I didn't think the guy was a drug abuser, you know, one has to define some terms here, I guess, but--
Q  I'd like you to do that, please.
A  Well, if a kid came in to me and said that he took two of his wife's diet pills and he found out, he got excited and he happened to mention it to his First Sergeant, and the First Sergeant called him in and said, you know, you are a drug abuser, go see the doctor, and I talked to this man and I believed what he was saying.  I didn't find that he--any signs or symptoms of what I considered drug abuse, I wouldn't report it to his commanding officer.  I'd talk to him and ask him if he was going to do it again, and usually, I'd make an attempt to find out was he doing the job as a soldier.  Many of the commanding officers are terrific in this regard.  I'd say, look, I'm just calling you in regard to a man.  I'd just like to know how he is performing.  Then if he was doing a good job, and I didn't think he was a drug abuser, I wouldn't report it any further.
Q  What were the steps that you took in regard to a person whom you believed to be actively engaged in the abuse of drugs?
A  Well, the initial step is to have him see Major Ryder.
Q  You would make a referral in that regard?
A  Right.
Q  And Major Ryder is?
A  Major Ryder is--was the Center Psychiatrist.  And once it got to this stage it was then out of our hands, and he assumed control of the patient from that point on.  If he was referred to Major Ryder, Major Ryder had control over the problem.  For instance, if there was going to be any disciplinary action I never saw any forms in regards to that.  It was all for Major Ryder.
Q  And was that procedure arrived at as a result of consultations between Group Surgeons and Staff Surgeons and Major Ryder himself?
A  That is correct.
Q  About how many patients did you--consultations did you have on the drug abuse program?
A  Well, well, initial interviews?  I had some follow-ups.
Q  Well, would you define what the difference between initial interviews was and what the follow-ups are and I'll ask you for the figures?
A  Well, on an initial interview, it was obviously just the first visit to myself or Captain Hiestand for consultation about this drug problem.  Then if he returned again, that would be a--if he returned for any reasons, you know, regarding this specific problem--that would be a follow-up interview.
Q  Let me ask you this, Captain MacDonald.  How many patients did you see of all types in a given week, say in February 1970?
A  Well, it varied tremendously, but I would say 60 to 100.
Q  In a given week?
A  Right.
Q  In February 1970 how many persons were referred to you through the drug abuse program?
A  Well, I had weeks where I saw one or two and I had weeks where I saw eight, so I would therefore say five would be a fair figure.  Well, I have to qualify this.  I don't want to leave incorrect implications.
Q  Very good.
A  I didn't consider a lot of these people drug abusers in any sense of the word, really, and they never came back and I never sent them to Major Ryder, and my intelligence reports indicated that they were doing a good job in the Army, and I didn't consider them drug abusers.  They came to me for that reason, but it was only a very few hard core drug abusers that I saw.
Q  Did you have any other connection with drug abuse other than what you've described for us so far?
A  Yes, I saw in my emergency room work in the Army.  As the investigating officer might know, drug abuse is a serious offense, and very often the soldiers will go to a community hospital and pay the emergency room care, rather than come to a dispensary, the Group Surgeon or Womack Emergency room.
Q  I see.  I believe you said the emergency room work in the Army.  Did you mean emergency work at civilian hospitals?
A  Right.  They will--well, in this instance to be specific, they will come to Cape Fear Valley Hospital and receive treatment there.
Q  How many patients would you say you would see in a week at Cape Fear Valley Hospital altogether at all times that you actually treated in the emergency room?
A  Well, I would have to give you a nightly figure because I didn't work every week.  Some weeks I'd work two nights, some weeks no nights, so a nightly figure would be between--well, I think that most of these people were sicker than what you see in day-to-day care.
Emergency room care is more traumatic--I would see 40 to 60 people at Cape Fear and 12 to 15 in a 12-hour shift at Hamlet.
Q  Did you see people in drug abuse situations on the nightly tours in the civilian hospitals?
A  Yes; yes, I did.
Q  Can you give us any minimal or maximal figures of the numbers you'd see on a given night's tour?
A  Well; now again these are mainly real drug abusers.  They would be coming in for a bad reaction or for instance, the more serious happening would be a respiratory arrest from an overdose of say, morphine, and these are the ones you see in the emergency room, rather than counseling in the office.  So the figure isn't impressive but the patients were, and I would see one every two nights I worked at Hamlet and one to two at Cape Fear a night.
Q  Let me ask you this.  Have you ever, within the terms we've been using this afternoon, abused any drugs?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  Have you ever used LSD?
A  No, sir.
Q  Have you ever used any other hallucinogenic drug?
A  No, sir.  Well, now--let me be perfectly honest.  You know what medical people consider and what the people who, general lay people, consider to be drug abuse, are really different.
I have taken diet pills, for instance, amphetamines, and amphetamines are considered--they are not with LSD in that hallucinogenic category, but they can--they can on certain situations cause hallucinations.
Q  Is it correct that diet pills are actually classified as dangerous drugs or legend drugs in various jurisdictions?
A  Right.
Q  Again, I am addressing myself to a hallucinogenic such as LSD.
A  No, I have not taken that.
Q  Mescaline?
A  No.
Q  Peyote?
A  No.
Q  Any drug which you understand to be commonly viewed by law enforcement authorities as a hallucinogenic drug as abuse and has no really standard medical purpose?
A  No, sir, I've never taken such a drug.
Q  Your wife, Colette, to your knowledge, has she ever taken any of the hallucinogenic drugs, as I have defined them here to you?
A  No, sir.
Q  In February of 1970 was she taking any medication?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What kind of medication was she taking?
A  She was taking anti-nausea pills for pregnancy which is called Bendectin, spelled,  B-e-n-d-e-c-t-i-n, and she also took occasional--well, they are really antihistamine tablets, Benadryl, spelled B-e-n-a-d-r-y-l, but she used these for sleep because they are safe in pregnancy.
Q  And how frequently would she take either of those drugs?
A  She took the Bendectin, the anti-nausea pill every time--every night because if she didn't she would wake up nauseated during the night or be nauseated at breakfast, and the Benadryl was--I couldn't really give you an exact figure.  Maybe every other night she would take one before she went to bed, roughly figures along that line.
Q  Now did your wife have occasion to take either of those medicines that you have just mentioned on February 16th of 1970?
A  Well, first-hand knowledge I know she took a Bendectin tablet.
Q  Which tablet is that?
A  That's the anti-nausea pill.
Q  Right.
A  I don't know that she took a Benadryl but she might well have.  I honestly don't know.  I know now.  I didn't know then.
Q  You say you know now.  You saw the subsequent reports by Womack Army Hospital?
A  Right, and they indicate she had a Benadryl somewhere in her urine or blood.
Q  What time did she return from her class at the University of North Carolina Extension?
A  Somewhere between 9:30 and 9:45 p.m.
Q  And what, if anything, did she do when she came home?
A  She changed her clothes, put on her pajamas and came out and sat in the living room with me.
Q  Do you recall what color pajamas they were?
A  No, I do not.
Q  All right, now what happened in the living room when she was there?
A  We just--when she came in, I guess it was--Bob Hope Special was on from nine to ten, and she just caught the very tail end of it.  I think she had changed--I'm not really sure, but I think she had changed already, came out, and she probably had a liqueur, which she often did, and I often did, before going to bed, a sweet dessert-type of a drink.
Q  Were you watching television yourself at that time when she came home?
A  Right, and we just sat in the living room and talked and watched TV.
Q  How long did your wife continue watching TV?
A  Until about midnight.
Q  And at that time, what did she do?
A  She went to bed.
Q  And what did you do between ten p.m. and midnight?
A  I watched television with her.
Q  The two of you were together in the living room?
A  Right.
Q  Can you tell us how many of those liqueurs you might have had?
A  If I had any, I had one, which is what I would do before bed sometime.  I don't know if I had one that night or not.
Q  But if you had any it would be a maximum of one?
A  Well, I'll put a maximum of two, but since I don't remember it, I don't think I had any.
Q  Do you recall, first of all, for certain, whether your wife had a liqueur, and if she did, how many would she drink?
A  She would have one or two also, a maximum of two.  I don't know if she had one.  I have a feeling that she did have one.  I seem to remember her setting there on the end of the couch and having a liqueur.
Q  Now when your wife went to bed at midnight, what did you do yourself?
A  I finished watching Johnny Carson.
Q  About what time did that program go off?
A  1 a.m.
Q  Did you see your wife between midnight and 1 a.m.?
A  I don't think so, no.
Q  Now what's the next thing you did after the Johnny Carson show?
A  I washed the dinner dishes.
Q  How long did that take, would you say?
A  Ten or fifteen minutes.
Q  And when you finished that chore, what was your next activity?
A  I read a mystery.  I finished a mystery that I had already started.  I finished reading it perhaps 2 a.m.
Q  Where were you reading it at this particular time?
A  In the living room on the couch.
Q  Now when you finished the book, what did you do?
A  I got up to go to bed.
Q  And let me ask you this--had you seen any of your children before 2 a.m.?
A  Yes, right.  I brought a bottle into Kristy.  I went into see her when she started crying.
She started crying and I went in to see her, and when she cries at night we are still in a habit of giving her a bottle and she slept the rest of the night.
Q  And do you recall about what time that was?
A  No, not exactly.  Somewhere between twelve and two, I would estimate.
Q  Now you indicated at two o'clock you started to go to bed.  Please describe what you did at that point and where you went.
A  Well, I left the kitchen light on, the ceiling light in the kitchen, and also the bedroom light
--I'm sorry--the bathroom light in the main hallway, the large bathroom light was on; the reason being that Kristy still occasionally would wake up and either come into our room or go looking for a bottle in the refrigerator.
Q  Did you leave a bottle where she could get one in the refrigerator?
A  I had just given her one but I left the light on anyway.  So I left those two lights on and then went in to go to bed.  But in the meanwhile, Kristy had come in to our bed, which she did occasionally, and I think she'd had her bottle with her, and the bed was wet on my side of the bed.
Q  Now, I am not sure I am entirely clear.  When you went into the master bedroom at about two o'clock, your wife was there?
A  Yes.
Q  And was Kristy already there in bed?
A  Yes, she was.
Q  Was she awake or asleep?
A  She was asleep.
Q  Where was she sleeping in reference to your wife?
A  On the right side.
Q  Was your wife sleeping on her side of the bed?
A  Yes, lying in the bed, face up to the ceiling.
Q  Now describe what you observed when you went to bed, or when you saw the child lying there?
A  My wife was sleeping, Kristy was sleeping with a bottle under the covers, and I pulled the covers back and there was a big wet area on my side of the bed.  So I picked her up and carried her to her own bed.
Q  Did you take the bottle with you at that time?
A  Yes.
Q  Now her bed was which bedroom?
A  Her bedroom was what's been referred to as to the rear bedroom.
Q  Now what did you do when you got to the rear bedroom?
A  I put her in bed.
Q  Did you put any lights on at that time, do you know?
A  No.
Q  What about the bed covers or the blankets on that bed?  What did you do in that regard?
A  I put her in bed and covered her up.  She had a habit of kicking off all her covers.  She was very active--both a child and a sleeper, and she often kicked off her covers, and I just probably covered her up to her chest and she had her bottle on her arm, and I went out to sleep on the couch.
Q  Now you say you went out to sleep on the couch.  Why did you go to sleep on the couch?
A  Because my half of the bed was wet.
Q  Had this kind of episode occurred before, about the child being in bed and the bed-wetting?
A  Sure.
Q  How frequently did that occur?
A  Oh, once a week.  She wasn't wetting very much.  More often she would come in bed, and not wet the bed, but it occurred once a week, once every two weeks.
Q  Had you had this problem with your first child?
A  You mean the child coming in bed with us?
Q  Yes.
A  Yes.
Q  How long did that last?  How long did you go through that phase?
A  Oh, probably a matter of weeks, and we'd put her back in bed, and she cried for about three hours one night, but she stayed in her bed and that ended the problem.
Q  How long had you been going through this night crawling into the parents' bed problem with the second?
A  Oh, probably--I'd say at least a month.
Q  And how had you and your wife been handling the problem?
A  We were a little more relaxed about this.  We weren't so worried about breaking her bad habits that we had been with Kimmie, and occasionally one of us would get up and leave the bed or we'd put Kristy back and she'd still sleep.  Occasionally we'd be playing musical beds.
I would move first, and then Kristy would come back to bed and I'd go back to my bed.
Something along that line.
Q  In your experience as a physician, are you aware of this situation of a child going from its own bed to try and crawl into its parents' bed?
A  Yes, sir, it's very common.
Q  Do you characterize it as a common condition?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is it related with some particular age range for a child?
A  I would say it occurs after a child has learned how to walk and say, assuming they progress normally, up to the time of the age of six or seven.  Usually--not usually--very frequently with the conjunction of another pregnancy.
Q  What's the relationship of another pregnancy with this--I'll call it night-walk of the child.
A  Well, I'm certainly not a psychiatrist, or even a psychologist, but the implication that I get out of it, my studies, and my own experience in counseling people, is that the child is somewhat jealous of the mother.  The mother, you know, has obviously become different, and usually they are talking about it, and the child knows something is different and it affects the child and she starts fighting for her spot in the family.
Q  Did your second child know that your wife was expecting another child?
A  Yes.
Q  And how did she come to know it?  What had been said to her about it?
A  We talked at great length about it.
Q  And what was the purpose of talking about it in the child's presence?
A  Well, we had found with our first child that keeping her informed prevented any of these other problems that I'd heard, read and seen, that being when the baby comes home from the hospital, the earlier the child being aware of the new member of the family, and we found that when Kristy was born that Kimmie had been well prepared by Colette and myself, and it worked out fine.
Q  And with all the preparation that you did with Kimmie, did that still prevent her from this night-walking when Kristy arrived?
A  You are a little confused.  Kimmie didn't night-walk when Kristy came home.  She night-walked when Colette was pregnant.  Yes, she did do that even though she knew Colette was pregnant with Kristy and we explained how and why.  Now exactly how, I mean, explained as best we could.
Q  Did you consider this situation with Kristy night-walking to be unusual or abnormal from the standpoint of your medical experience?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did it cause any particular stress or strain between you and your wife what Kristy was doing?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  There's not any doubt about it in your mind?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did your wife and you have any disagreement over the technique to be applied with the child in regard to this night-walking?
A  We had slightly different feelings on the matter, yes.
Q  Describe that.
A  My wife said that she didn't mind getting up and putting her back in her own bed or getting her a bottle, and I suggested that we do the same thing we had done with Kimmie, it worked so well.  Colette said it wasn't worth the effort and she said she would bring it up in her child psychology class and see what--you know your own family would never believe your word as a physician--she said she would bring it up with her professor at the university.
Q  Did you object to that?
A  Absolutely not, because I knew he was going to say what I said.
Q  Did you have occasion to discuss with your wife, when she came home that night, the conversation she had in class?
A  If we did, it was very brief.
Q  What was the general nature of your conversation with your wife that evening when she came home from school?
A  Really nothing significant.  It was just--we enjoyed the time together.
Q  You say that you placed Kristy back in her bed and then what did you, yourself, do?
A  I got a blanket.  I don't remember where I got it from.  It could have been from the closet or one of the other beds.  As a matter of fact, it was probably from Kristy's bed.  We had, usually, one of two folded blankets at the foot of her bed, and went out to the couch in the living room.
Q  Do you recall how you left the bed covers in the master bedroom after you took Kristy out?
A  Yes, I left the--Colette was covered, but the urine spot was--I pushed the covers down along Colette so the spot was open, just to dry--for drying purposes.
Q  All right, now what arrangements did you make for going to sleep in the living room?
A  I just pulled the blanket up over me, turned off the light in the living room and went to sleep.
Q  And as best you can estimate, what was that time?
A  I would say very shortly after 2 a.m.
Q  Now, did anything interrupt your sleep?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was there?
A  My wife screaming.
Q  Is that the first sound that you had heard between the time you went to bed and the time you heard your wife screaming?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did she say or make any sound that was distinguishable to you, that is a word or a name?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did your wife say?
A  The first thing I heard was a scream.  Just a--sound to me a very loud high pitched scream.  The next thing I heard was, “Help, Jeff.”
Q  And was that Colette's voice that you heard at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  There's no question in your mind about it?
A  No, sir.
Q  All right, what did you do when you reacted--when you became aware that you were hearing that sound?
A  Well, I started to sit up.
Q  What was the lighting conditions then as you became awake in the living room where you were?
A  The kitchen light was on--let me back up just a moment.  I don't really know if it was the ceiling light in the kitchen or the light next to the refrigerator.  One of the lights in the kitchen was on.  I'd left it on, and the bathroom in the hallway light was on, and the lighting conditions were, what I considered very poor, because I was asleep.  I don't normally go to sleep with a lot of light on.
Q  Now as you came awake, you say you started to sit up?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you hear and what did you see at that point?
A  I heard screams first before I really saw anything.
Q  Describe what you heard.
A  I heard Colette scream first, and then say, “Help, help, Jeff.  Why are they doing this to me?” and she repeated it.
Q  She repeated it the second time?
A  At least once.  You know, like “Help, help Jeff, help, help, why are they doing this to me?”
Q  Did you hear something else before you were able to begin to identify anything visually?
A  Yes.
Q  Tell us now what else, what else you heard.
A  I heard Kimmie, she was also screaming, and she was screaming “Daddy, daddy” over and over.
Q  Did you hear any other voice?  Did you hear Kristy's voice at that time?
A  No.  I'm not sure.  I just heard screaming.  I don't know if I heard Kristy.  I don't think so.
Q  But you are sure it was Kimmie that was saying, “Daddy, daddy”?
A  Yes.
Q  Now what are the next things your senses perceived?
A  I saw people at the foot of the couch.
Q  And when you say people, would you be more specific about that, please?
A  Originally I saw three people; my first impression was three people.  Subsequently, I saw what I thought to be--the total number was four, to my recollection.
Q  All right now you say you saw three people that is your impression first.  Where were all these three people, place them physically in reference to the foot of the couch?
A  Two white males were right at the foot of the couch facing me, and a Negro male was to their right.  In other words, all three were at the foot of the couch, but the Negro was, you know, more off to the side.  He wasn't right directly in front of the foot of the couch, and that's what I initially saw as I--most of this happened, you know, a lot of this happened simultaneously, I heard and saw.  And they were right there when I heard the screaming.
Q  Were you in an upright position when you made these observations?
A  Yes, I was starting to sit up.  Not upright, I was pushing up off the couch.
Q  Now what's the very next thing that you can recall happening at that point?
A  I--several things simultaneously.  I started to say something like, you know, what's going on, along that line, you know.  I didn't ever say it.  I was going to say what are doing here, or what the hell's going on, you know, and at the same time behind these three people I saw another person.
Q  Now describe the other person you saw.
A  It was a person, shorter than the other people.  The person had long blonde hair, and had a light-colored, large floppy hat. 
Q  Was it a male person or female person?
A  Well, it appeared to be a female.
Q  Now what else did you see or what happened next?
A  As this was happening, the Negro male to my left was moving towards me, sort of in a position which would have to bring him between the coffee table and the front edge of the couch, and he raised something over his head.
Q  Could you identify what it was?
A  It looked like a club.  My initial impression was a baseball bat.
Q  Now what happened, or what did he do, and what did you do?
A  Well, there are other things that happened.  Do you want me to go into those first?
Q  Well, all right.  You mean something happened before?
A  Well, I heard the--what I thought to be a girl say something.
Q  That was before the Negro actually came up closer to you between the coffee table and the sofa or as?
A  As, it is really simultaneous.
Q  Right, I understand that.  Tell us what you heard said at that time.
A  She said, “Kill the pigs.”
Q  Did you hear her say anything else?
A  “Acid is groovy.  Kill the pigs.”  And during the next several seconds, I heard that at least twice, that sequence.  I don't know if it was “Acid is groovy.  Kill the pigs.”  Or “Kill the pigs, acid is groovy.”  But those words and one time sometime that I thought was “Acid and rain,” just those three words.
Q  Now did anyone, beside the Negro male, whom you've described as having a club-like object in his hand, have anything in their hands?
A  I wasn't aware of it at that time.  Oh, the female, yes.  The female.
Q  I meant all of the other three people, aside now from the Negro male.  Did you observe anything in any of their hands?
A  No, I didn't directly observe anything in her hands.  This was a--this is--well, let me get it right.  It has been taken out of context over and over many times.  I saw what appeared to be a light shining up on the girl's face.  I did not see specifically anything in her hands.
Q  You don't know what the source of the light was?
A  No.  I had an impression, I don't know why, I had the impression perhaps because the light was wavering or something, but I saw a light coming up, and I had an impression that she was holding something in her hands, and you have to realize now this is really very fast and a lot of things were happening.  I was hearing things.
Q  What was the impression you had as to what that light source was?
A  Either a well--well, my first impression was that it was a candle.  It could have been--you know when it was pointed out to me--it could have been a flashlight, because I never really saw a candle.  That was just my impression.
Q  Now what is the next thing that happened? Why don't we take just a few minutes?  I do want to proceed with this as much as possible.

COL ROCK:  Yes, I think it will be well for all to take about a five-minute break.

(The hearing recessed at 1001, 15 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1022, 15 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  I remind you, Captain MacDonald, that you are still under oath.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Captain MacDonald, I think at the recess I had asked you to describe what was the next thing that happened after you had perceived the three males in front and female behind you.
I think you described that the right male had come up in between the sofa and the coffee table and had what you described as a club.
A  Right, he raised it over his head and swung it at me.
Q  Did the club actually strike any part of your body?
A  Right, it--the combination of, you know, my arm and left side of my forehead.
Q  The first blow came in contact with both parts of the body?
A  Right.  I just raised my arm to fend off and I was hit hard enough to--well, I literally saw stars, and was knocked back flat on the couch.
Q  Let me be specific.  What was the impact of the blow?  You say you saw stars.  Did you actually perceive that feeling?
A  Right, I don't know if you've ever been hit in the head but you really do see stars, a lot of pain, and you, you feel like you are blacking out, you know, it's hard to describe unless you've been hit in the head.
Q  All right, what did the force of that blow cause to happen to you?
A  Well, physically it knocked me back on the couch, flat.  In other words, I was pushing up in a sitting position, and I started to move back and raise my arm, and I was knocked by--back down by the blow.
Q  Then what happened after that blow?
A  I pushed myself back up again.
Q  And go on to describe those events in sequence as best you can narrate them.
A  He raised the club again and started to swing and I partially blocked it with my arm again, and I grabbed his arm and slid down on the club and was holding the club.
Q  Now was the second blow actually struck you?
A  As I remember, not of any great severity, the second one, no.
Q  And what part of the body did the club come in contact with on the second contact?
A  No, it really didn't because I was pushing my hand on his arm as he was bringing it down.
I just sort of grabbed his arm and stopped the blow, really.  But this was, you know, it's a little confusing.  He might have hit, like the top of my shoulder or something, but not to a significant degree, I wouldn't say.
Q  Then what happened?
A  I was holding on to the club and I started to struggle to get up.
Q  Now where were you at this point? You mentioned sliding down toward the floor.
A  No, no, I just--my left leg now would be to the outside of the couch, and at this point I was trying to get my left leg off the couch and down on the floor for leverage to get up and fight, and I put my left leg and started to struggle up, holding on to the club, and at the same time, now, it's hard to describe--it was a struggle, but these other two people right here were punching me, what I thought was the other two people.
Q  Are these the two white males?
A  The two white males that were standing at the foot of the couch.  As I moved forward, I was only four feet, three feet from the end of the couch, sitting forward trying to push that way to get up, and they were--
Q  Go ahead and describe the struggle that took place there.
A  I thought I was being punched. I, you know, I could feel like a rain of blows on my chest, shoulders, neck, you know, forehead or whatnot.  I was just getting punched by what seemed like a lot of, what I thought was fists.  While I was holding onto the club I suddenly got a very sharp pain in my chest, my right chest.
Q  Do you know the source of that pain?
A  No, I do not.  My instantaneous impression was, was that, I thought to myself, that he really threw a helluva punch, because it like took the breath out of me.
Q  You were of the impression that it was a punch that had caused that pain at that time?
A  Well, yeah, but let's not make it black and white.  I was being punched and I felt the pain in my chest, and I just instantaneously thought that was a--that was a good blow.  I didn't stop and think, gee it could have been a stab or gunshot or a punch, or--and so, when I felt this pain, I let go of the club and sort of, you know, just directed my attention more to the other two people, that--
Q  The two white males?
A  Right.  Now basically you'd have to get the picture.  I'd already been hit in the head and it wasn't any titanic struggle, much to my chagrin.  I was just trying to push up and I was being punched.  This wasn't a matter of, you know, me picking up chairs and hitting people over the head in defense of myself at all.  I had been hit on the head and I was struggling up, and more or less I had been holding onto this club trying to pull myself up, and when I felt the sharp pain in the right side of my chest I just let go of this and struggled with the other two people.

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  Where were the other two people?  I don't think this--that has been established.  At the time you were being punched, where were they?

WITNESS:  Sir, my feet were towards the end of the couch towards the hallway.  My head was away from the hallway, and as I tried to sit up, you know, it would be like half the couch from the end of the couch, and it would be sort of leaning forward from that area.  They were still at the end of the couch.

COL ROCK:  Right, that's what I want.

Q  Okay, Captain MacDonald, would you describe what else took place between you and this group, if anything?
A  Right, so I started struggling with these people. Now sometime during this, my hands were sort of bound up in my pajama top, and I honestly don't know if it was ripped off or if it had been pulled over my head.
Q  I'm not sure the process involved is clear when you say my hands were bound in the pajama top.
A  I let go of the club and I was struggling with these two people and I realized that, you know, I couldn't really punch back and my hands were like bound up in my own pajama top.  I couldn't get them out of the sleeves or something.  It was just--and I had the impression that it had been ripped from around me, or pulled over my head.  I don't distinctly remember either.
Q  You don't recall doing that to yourself though?
A  No.
Q  Pulling the pajama top over your head?
A  No.
Q  Then what was the next happening, or what did you next become aware of?
A  Well, as I was struggling, I received another, what seemed like a fairly impressive blow on the side of my arm, and saying to myself, what do I do now, really, and I was struggling, trying to get my hands free, and my hands themselves were still free.  The pajama top was around my wrists and between my wrists and just around the--the part of my hands, really, and in the struggling I had a hold of one of these, I don't know which one, hands, and in the hand I saw a blade.
Q  Could you describe how large it was, or the type of blade?  Was it a very big blade?
A  No, it didn't seem to be a very big blade.  I just saw a--really like a--like a glint of metal or something, and I realized that I had just been--that was probably a stab wound, rather than a punch, and that it was--you know, I was in serious trouble.
Q  Did you ever become aware of there being another weapon besides the club and this one blade that you saw?
A  I'm not sure, I had a--I have an impression of seeing like a glint of metal, something in the struggle while I was grabbing onto the hands and trying to push away.  And they--the shorter man in the middle still, I thought was punching me, and I was using this to fend it off.  I couldn't get my hands free and I was just sort of pushing against, trying to get my hands free while I was trying to keep them at bay, and this other person had hit me in the shoulder with the club again.
Q  Now how did this struggle resolve itself?
A  Well, I don't know what finally happened.  I was getting up, I was succeeding in pushing forward and I was at least towards the--the end of the couch, and I realized that like I was falling towards the stairs, the two steps that lead into the living room right at the foot of the couch, and the last thing that I remember was that I had a glimpse of a knee.
A  You say a knee?
Q  Yes.  This is the total--this is the totality of my view of this--I assume that this had been the female's knee, but I never saw her, but then I saw a bare knee as I was falling to the floor off the end of the couch towards the stairway, I had an impression of seeing bare skin, and the top of a boot.
Q  Did you see anything else about the boot, other than the top?
A  It just appeared to be--my impression was that it was a light brown color, and it appeared to be--you know I almost hate to say it because it sounds too black and white.  I just have an impression that it was wet.
Q  Was there any possibility that that material you saw could have been patent leather?
A  Surely.
Q  Do you have any idea how long this struggle lasted from the time that you first heard the screams until the time that you recall seeing the knee, the boot, and losing consciousness?
A  Well, that's a rough--my only experience would be in other fist fights, and the time seems like its dragging and it hardly ever is.  I would say fifteen or twenty seconds.  You know that's maybe ten seconds, maybe thirty seconds.  But certainly not very long.
Q  Now did you actually lose consciousness at that time when you described seeing a knee and a boot?
A  Well, apparently I did because I--my next recollection was that I was alone on the steps at the end of the hallway.  I was lying sort of face down on the hallway floor.
Q  What did you do when you began to gather your consciousness at that point?
A  Well, the first thing I remember was my hands were squelched up sort of across my abdomen, still with the pajama top wrapped around them, and I was lying there and the first thing I remember was that my teeth were chattering, literally knocking together, and I said to myself I was going into shock.  So that--I don't want to try to mislead the investigating officer.
I'm not saying that I was going into shock or that I was in shock.  This was my impression at that time, simply because chattering teeth is one of the classic symptoms of shock.
Q  Now how did you respond to that, or did you just feel yourself with your teeth chattering?
Did you breathe in or feel anything else about your body at that time?
A  I realized my head hurt and my chest hurt, and I started getting up, and as I was getting up, I realized it was very quiet, and all of a sudden it hit me that the last thing I really remembered that I had heard screaming.
Q  Had you heard any other screaming other than the initial sounds you described?  You described Colette calling you and you described Kimberly calling you “daddy, daddy.”  Do you recall any other sounds coming from your children and your wife?
A  No.  I don't know when during the struggle, if in fact they did stop, they stopped.  I just heard the initial noise and then I was involved and I don't remember really any other noise.
Q  Now what did you do when you started to get your foothold?
A  Well, my first impression was to see what Colette had been screaming about, and so I got up and walked towards the master bedroom.
Q  Did you see anything unusual in the hall at that point?
A  Not in the hallway, no.  I wasn't paying any attention.  I just was walking.
Q  And describing what happened when you got to the master bedroom.  Did you actually go in?
A  Yes.
Q  And what did you see?
A  My wife.
Q  Where was your wife?
A  She was lying on the floor.
Q  In what position?
A  Her right shoulder was a little bit against the green easy chair and her feet were facing somewhat towards the entrance that I was coming in from the hallway, but halfway between the entrance and the rear exit out the utility room.
Q  What did you do when you saw your wife there?
A  I took a knife out of her chest.
Q  Now can you indicate what portion of the chest the knife was?
A  It was in the upper part of her chest towards the neck.
Q  Was any of the blade exposed when you first saw it?
A  I--I don't remember seeing any part of the blade, no.
Q  What did you do with the knife?
A  I just threw it away.
Q  What did you do next after you pulled the knife out of your wife's chest?
A  As I was walking towards my wife in the bedroom--I don't know whether or not--I must have.  You just walk in the door; the light switch is on the right side of the door.  Probably as I walked in I--put it on, and I was--and as I was looking at her I was taking off the pajama top that was around my hands, and I dropped it.
Q  Let me ask you this about the lights.  Were you aware of any change in the lights in your house when you became conscious and went back towards the master bedroom from the way it had been when you had gone to sleep on the sofa?
A  No, I'm not aware of any changes.
Q  As far as you can recall, was there a light on in the kitchen at that time?
A  Right.
Q  And was there a light on in the bathroom?
A  Right.
Q  So then describe what you did after you went into the master bedroom and turned the light on.  Go on from there, please.
A  I was taking this pajama top off my hands and I threw it away or something, dropped it, and I took the knife out of her chest, and I probably checked her pulse.
Q  When you say probably--
A  Well, I checked the pulses several times.  I don't know if it was at this time that I specifically felt for her pulse.
Q  Would that be a wrist pulse or would it be a leg pulse?
A  Initially, probably for the carotid pulse.
Q  What's a carotid pulse?
A  It's the pulse in the neck, the large artery that leads to the head.
Q  Do you recall what observation you made as to your wife's pulse at the time you checked it?
A  Yeah, I never--I was aware of having checked the pulse.  I mean I checked it many times, but I don't--I never felt a pulse.
Q  Now what did you do after you checked the pulse?  Did you follow any other procedures in regard to her?
A  Yeah, I gave her mouth-to-mouth artificial respiration.
Q  Now how did you assume the position for mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A  Well, she was a little bit propped up against this green chair. 
Q  Had you moved her from the position you found her, from the propped position?
A  Well, that's where I found her.
Q  All right, go ahead.
A  And I just sort of laid her flat and open her mouth and cleared out her mouth.
Q  What did you find in her mouth at that time?
A  Really nothing.  I mean that's the first thing you do to make sure the person has a--then I breathed into the mouth.
Q  Do you recall how long you did that process?
A  No, sir, just briefly, seconds.  The air came out of her chest.
Q  The air was being spilled from the holes in the chest.  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  Now did you take any other steps after you tried the mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A  I just tried to cover her up.
Q  What do you mean, cover her up?
A  I looked for something to cover her up, and I covered her with my pajama top.
Q  Do you know where they were before you picked them up to cover your wife?
A  No, I remember I just tried to cover her with something and I must have grabbed it, because I know I was putting it across her chest.
Q  Why did you do that?
A  Well, it doesn't make any sense in view of the injuries, but it is to treat shock.
Q  Now what portion of your wife's body did you cover?
A  Her chest.
Q  What was the state of your wife's clothing at that time?
A  Her bed clothing?
Q  Her pajama top and her pajama bottom.
A  Well, her whole chest was exposed and looked like part of her abdomen.  You could see her breasts, and I covered across her chest.
Q  Did you put anything else on her or cover her in any way?
A  Not that I remember.
Q  You have seen, I think, during the course of these proceedings, the photographs which show what appears to be a white towel or white bath mat covering a portion of your wife's body.  Have you not seen those?
A  Yes, sir, I have.
Q  Did you put that white towel or bath mat on your wife?
A  No, sir, not that I remember.
Q  Do you have any idea how it got there?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now what was the next thing you did in regard to the master bedroom?
A  I don't think I did anything else there right then.
Q  After you covered you wife, what did you do?
A  I realized I didn't hear the kids either, so I went to check.
Q  Now can you tell us to which bedroom you went first?
A  Kimberly.
Q  The front bedroom?  Did you do anything in regard to the lights when you walked in that bedroom?
A  I don't think so.  I think that I just walked up to the side of the bed.
Q  Now what did you do then?
A  I checked--looked at her first.  She was, looked to be covered with blood.
Q  What was the arrangement of the bed cover or any bed clothing at that point?
A  I don't specifically remember.  I remember I could see her chest and her neck and she had a lot of blood on her neck, and again, I don't know if I checked her pulses this time or later, but I checked them at sometime, and also tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q  Did you do anything else other than perhaps check the pulse and give her respiration?
A  No.
Q  How long did you try the mouth-to-mouth with Kimberly?
A  Seconds.
Q  And why did you stop?
A  Because the air was coming out of her chest.
Q  What did you do then after you observed the condition of the injuries--the air coming out of her chest?
A  I went to check Kristy.
Q  And you walked across the hall at that point?
A  Right.
Q  Did you do anything to the lights in Kristy's room?
A  Not that I remember.
Q  Now would you describe what you saw in Kristy's bedroom?
A  I looked at her and she was very bloody, and I tried to give her--I know, I remember for some reason on Kristy the first time around--that I tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration the first time, and the same thing happened, that the air bubbles were coming out of her chest rather than inflating her chest.  I know I checked her pulses the first time.  You know, I remember distinctly checking her for some reason.
Q  You say that on the first time in Kristy's room you checked her pulse?
A  Right.
Q  Which pulse did you check?
A  Well, the first time at least the carotid and the femorals.
Q  The femoral is where?
A  In the groin area.
Q  Did that require you to move the bed clothing, move the sheets in anyway?
A  I'm not sure if they were down or if I had to move them down.  I remember checking the femoral pulse on her and I don't remember if I moved the sheet down myself or if it was already down.
Q  Now after you checked her pulse, what did you do, if anything in Kristy's room?
A  Nothing I just walked out of the room.
Q  Where did you go now?
A  I stood in the hallway, between the two bedrooms and tried to figure out--you know--what to do.
Q  And what did you decide and what did you act upon?
A  Well, I first checked myself.
Q  What did you find upon checking yourself, Captain MacDonald?
A  My head hurt and I put my hand up to my head and I hadn't really noticed my hands, and I put my hand up and I took it down and my hand looked all bloody, and I assumed that, you know, that at least some of it was probably from my head, and I looked down to see--my chest hurt, and my chest, whenever I'd take a breath it was bubbling.
Q  And what did that indicate to you?
A  Well, I had a pneumothorax, and I was standing right there and I looked in the, walked in the bathroom and looked in the bathroom mirror to see what my head looked like because I had this blood on my hand.
Q  What happened when you went into the bathroom?  Was the light on?  As you recall leaving it?
A  Right.
Q  Now what did you do there?
A  Well, I looked in the mirror and I had a--a contusion, and you know, a large bruise on my left forehead and it didn't appear too impressive, and I had just a bruise and there was some, looked like streaks of blood, mainly what looked like I had put there with my hand.  The skin was a little abraded, but it does--didn't look that exciting, and so I went back to the master bedroom.
Q  Did you do anything else in the bathroom while you were there other than to check--
A  Yeah, I rinsed off my hands.
Q  Why did you do that?
A  Your guess is as good as mine.  I guess I--I don't know--I guess because I'm a surgeon at heart and--and I really don't know.  I just--I did not--I did it.
Q  What do you mean you are a surgeon at heart?
A  Well, I mean, I looked at my hands and they are all bloody, and I am standing there and I was confused and my head hurt and my chest hurt and--I had just seen this unbelievable scene.  I didn't know what to do.
Q  Do you actually have a recollection of specifically washing your hands?
A  Right.
Q  You do recall the water running and your hands in the sink?
A  Right.
Q  Do you recall drying your hands?
A  Not--I remember I grabbed some tissues or something and was drying, you know, blotting them.  I don't know if I dropped them or put them in the toilet or the waste paper basket or what.  But I remember I tried to dry them.
Q  What did you do then?
A  I--I went towards the master bedroom.
Q  And did you enter the master bedroom this second time?
A  Right.
Q  And describe what you did at this time.
A  I checked her again, I checked the pulse.
Q  Do you have a recollection now on a second trip in the master bedroom of actually checking her pulses?
A  Right.
Q  Do you know which pulse you checked?
A  At least her left wrist, and at least her left femoral, and probably her carotid again.  The carotid is a good one in shock just because it is the strongest pulse you can feel.  The femoral is the next best.
Q  Did you find a pulse in your wife?
A  No.
Q  What did you do after you checked for the pulses?
A  I pulled the pajama top down, looked to check her wounds.  In other words, I was--I didn't know what had happened, and I was, you know, trying to comprehend and I was hoping that what I had seen, I hadn't seen, so I just sort of checked her again and looked at her chest wounds, and then I got up and realized that I had--you know, no one else except me, you know, and the alleged assailants were--were aware of what happened, so I picked up the phone in the bedroom.
Q  Was the phone in its normal position at that time?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Where was it?
A  It was on the end of Colette's bureau, on the, I guess the north wall.  The bureau was along the north wall and it was on the--at the east end of the bedroom towards the window.
The phone is right on the end.
Q  What did you do?  Did you actually make a call at that time?
A  I dialed O for the operator and she came on the phone, and she said, “Operator” or something like that and I said, “This is Captain MacDonald and--and there's been stabbings.”  I really don't know my first words but it was something like that--“There's been stabbings and we need police and MPs and doctors.”
Q  What did the operator say, if anything?
A  She said, “What's your address?” and I said, “544 Castle Drive.”  And she said, “Is it on post or off post?”  So I said--I said, you know, I started shouting at her, “What the hell do you mean, is it on post or off post?” and she said, she repeated it, “Is it on post or off post?” and I said it was on post, and she said, “It's an MP matter.”  So I dropped the phone.
Q  You dropped the phone?  When you dropped the phone do you know what happened to the hand piece?
A  No, I don't.
Q  What did you do after you dropped the phone?
A  I was standing right at Colette's feet, still trying to figure out what to try.  I couldn't think of how to call the MPs.  You know, I--I--she was obviously, now, obviously going to connect me, but she said, “It's an MP matter.”  And I just wasn't thinking very clearly and I just said, well, how do I get a hold of the MPs, and I was just standing there, and either when I was coming in the bedroom this time or when I was standing there I noticed that the back door was open.
Q  That's the door through the utility room that leads to the rear?
A  Right.
Q  Now what did you do when you made that observation, if anything?
A  I just walked over to it and looked, just looked outside.
Q  Do you recall what you saw?
A  Nothing really, it was just--really nothing.
Q  Do you know why you went to the back door and looked out?
A  I suppose to look for people or something.  I didn't specifically say I am going to go to the back door and look for people or--it was open--I guess to see if anyone was there.
Q  Did it occur to you to call out at that time?
A  To call out?
Q  Yes.
A  No, it didn't.  I mean it just--no.
Q  Now what did you do after you looked out the back door and saw that no one was there?
A  I went back and checked the kids, same circle basically.  I went and checked Kimberly and it's more likely, just the way I remember it that I tried to give her artificial respiration at that time. You know, I don't know why it sticks in my mind that way.  I just don't seem to remember giving it to her the first time I saw her, but I checked her--checked her pulses this time, and I think this was the time I tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration.  It could have been--actually it could have even been two times, but I think I did it this time.  If you made me make a choice, I'd say I gave it to her this time.
Q  You can't specifically say whether it was the first time or the second time, can you?
A  No.
Q  All right, now what did you do after you checked her?
A  Well, I--I went in to see Kristy again.
Q  Can you describe what you did there?
A  I didn't do as much this time.  Again, now, I don't think at this time I gave her artificial respiration.  I think that I just looked at her again and--strengthened what I was trying not to believe.  It made me believe what I was trying not to believe, that I had seen her that way and I couldn't get a pulse.
Q  Had you actually told yourself at that point that they were dead?
A  No, I just--I was trying to help them.  I mean--I knew instinctively from being a doctor that they were dead, but I didn't--I didn't make that decision.  I thought that--we are going to try to help them as much as I can.
Q  Did you leave Kristy's room then?
A  Right.
Q  What did you do then?
A  I went to the kitchen phone.  I just came out of the room and I just paused there and was thinking that--I really haven't you know, gotten a hold of anyone.  The last thing I remember was the operator said it was an MP matter, and I assumed she had dropped it.  So I went to the kitchen phone.
Q  From Kristy's room?
A  Right.
Q  Did you turn on any lights or touch the lights that you recall, in the kitchen when you went there?
A  I don't think so.  I--I think--there was a light on and I didn't have to touch any other light.
Q  Now describe what happened when you went to the kitchen?
A  Well, I picked up the phone and before I could dial I heard voices.
Q  Do you recall what the voices were saying?
A  No, I don't.  I heard female voices.  I heard what appeared to be male and female voices. No, I'm sorry.  When I initially picked it up I heard female voices, and then I said, “Hello” and she said, “Is this Captain MacDonald?” and I said, “Yes, I've been stabbed and we need help.  There are people dying.”
Q  You said, “There are people dying?”
A  Words to that effect.  I don't--you know--people are dying or people have been stabbed, and we need help at 544 Castle Drive.
Q  Did the operator respond, or did any voice respond?
A  She said, “I'll connect you with the MPs.”
Q  Did you stay on the phone?
A  Right, and I was--well, I remember it as being that I was yelling.  You know, I was saying, “We need help, help at 544 Castle Drive.”  And I was becoming extremely agitated that I couldn't get through this what I considered to be a, you know, nincompoop--and I can't spell that.
Q  What did you hear ultimately?  Did you get any response from anybody besides the operator?
A  Yeah, a man came on and said, “Can I help you?”  And he said, “This is a Sergeant--”  something, I don't remember the name.  So I said again “This is--this is Captain MacDonald at 544 Castle Drive and we need help.”  He said, “What happened?” and I said, “I've been stabbed and I think I'm dying and other people are dying.  And he said--he--I could hear him holler to someone, “Make that ASAP to Womack.  And he said, “They're coming” or something like that or “Help is on its way.”
Q  He said it to you, or you overheard him say it?
A  Well, I think I really heard him saying, you know, get Womack ASAP or something like that.
I don't know if he was speaking to me or I don't know if he was telling me they was coming ASAP, it sounded like, but the impression of the recollection I have is that he was saying to someone else “Get them there ASAP.”  ASAP meaning as soon as possible.
Q  Now did you talk anymore on the phone at that point?
A  No.
Q  What did you do with the phone?
A  I don't specifically remember.  I think I just dropped it.
Q  And did you remain in the kitchen?
A  Well, I--I--I'm not really sure.  I think that--it sounds ridiculous--I think that I washed my hands at the kitchen sink, either before or after this phone call, but I'm not sure I did that, and--and I've been questioned extensively about it and I don't know.  I just--I have the feeling that I was rinsing off my hands for some reason, that's the last thing that I remember, from the kitchen.
Q  What is the next thing you recall?
A  I was struggling with an MP.  He was breathing into my mouth.
Q  Do you have any recollection of what transpired from the time you recall being in the kitchen and this next episode of someone breathing into your mouth?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you have any idea how you got from the kitchen to the place where the MP was breathing into your mouth?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you, in fact, at that time, know where you were when you found this person breathing into your mouth?
A  Not immediately.
Q  Did you become aware of where you were?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And where were you at that time?
A  I was in my bedroom next to Colette.
Q  When you say you were next to Colette, what do you mean?
A  I was lying on her left side on the floor.
Q  How did you get there?
A  I don't know.
Q  Do you know how long you had been there?
A  No, sir.
Q  What is it you first became aware of?
A  That someone was breathing into my mouth and I didn't know what--what was happening.
I started struggling with them.  I thought--this is really how I remember it, I was struggling with them, just trying to push them away.  And then I saw a whole bunch of--you know--I looked up, and as I was pushing him away he was saying, “Take it easy, take it easy”, and I saw shiny helmets, you know, with a white line, and I saw a whole circle of heads over me, and they were telling me to lie down, and was pushing me down.
Q  What did you do when he pushed you back down?
A  I looked over at my wife--I mean that's realized where I was.  As I was talking to them, I was trying to figure out where I was and what had happened, and as he pushed me back down I looked at Colette.
Q  Now what happened at that point?
A  I think I said something like “Jesus Christ, look at my wife.”
Q  Did anybody say anything to you then at that point?
A  Well, there was a lot of--there was a lot going on--I mean there was a lot of, to my recollection, confusion and shouts, and orders and people were pushing me down and saying, “Everything is okay.  She's okay” and “Don't touch that” and “Put that down” and “Let's get help” and “Where the hell is Womack” and you know, it was like you'd hear many voices shouting and yelling and people running back and forth, right past me, past my left shoulder, and it was just a very confusing scene.
Q  Are you clear in your recollection that you heard some people shouting, “Don't touch that.
Put that down.”  Or words to that effect?
A  Right.
Q  Do you know what they were referring to?
A  No, sir.
Q  Go on and describe what happened at that point?
A  Well, he kept trying to breathe in my mouth and I kept trying to push him away, and I told him I wanted to know, you know, see my kids, and check my wife's pulse.
Q  Excuse me, you say check your wife's pulse.  You mean you were asking him to do that?
A  Right.
Q  Go ahead.
A  I said, you know, check her, check the kids, and you know, we need help, we need doctors.  Get us to Womack.  You know, I'm not saying that these are the specific words.  I'm saying this is roughly what I was saying, and I was lying right next to Colette and I could see her chest and--I'm not sure--I'm sure I was crying and--he kept trying to breathe into my mouth and--and the next real--really the next thing is they were--I was struggling to get off the stretcher in the hallway.  I mean I have a--you know--really it's kind of--I'm not trying to be difficult to the investigating officer but it's not clear at all, the exact sequence of things, and really the next clear thing, although I do remember--I have a kind of a hazy recollection of people moving me and shifting me and putting me on a stretcher, was that I sort of fell off the stretcher and--in the hallway.
Q  Do you actually recall being lifted by someone from the bedroom floor onto the stretcher?
A  Yeah, because somebody had to--somehow I had gotten in the doorway.  I was--the doorway was on both sides of my shoulders, and the guy had to step over me to get behind me to help pick me up, and they picked me up and then I was on the stretcher and I was starting to get off the stretcher.
Q  Why were you trying to get off?
A  Well, I wanted to check my kids.
Q  When you were in the master bedroom on the floor, and was made aware of this man breathing into your mouth, do you know if your body was in contact with your wife's body?
Could you feel her body?
A  Originally my head was against her--her shoulder, kind of right here on the anterior part of her armpit.
Q  Now what happened when you tried to get off the stretcher in the hallway?
A  Well, they were trying to hold me on it, and I fell kind of into Kimberly's doorway, which is the front or south bedroom, and I fell against the hallway and the little stereo that she had in her room just inside the doorway, and I kind of fell against it and they were grabbing me and pulling me back on the stretcher.
Q  What's the next thing you recall happening?
A  Well, with any clarity, a nurse was saying to me in the hospital, “What's your social security number?”
Q  Do you recall the trip from the--your home to the hospital?
A  Not with clarity.  I remember saying to someone, “Jesus, I--I need fluids, and I'm freezing.”  You know, my teeth were still chattering, and they were covering me with blankets in the vehicle that we were in, but it really--well, the best way I can explain it, it just seems hazy like you are looking at it through a fog rather than being me sitting there and viewing you and describing it later on.  It doesn't have that--I don't have those clear remembrances.
Q  Captain MacDonald, do you recall any conversation while you were on the floor of the master bedroom with the military policeman, telling him anything about what had happened to you and your family?
A  They were asking me, and I--I was telling them, that, you know, we had been attacked, and I remember I said we had been attacked and someone you know, you know, really you have to get to the scene.  It wasn't one person sitting there with a--with a pad saying and what happened next.  Here there were people shouting and one kept trying to breathe into my mouth, and one guy kept saying, “Who did it?  Who did it?” and someone else said, you know, “Can you recognize them?” and “How many were there?” and it was really a very jumbled thing, and I'd hear one thing, and I'd say--“I think I saw four”--and they'd say, “What did you see?” and I said, “Some colored guy hit me with a club.”  And “I saw a girl with a--with a hat” and what I thought were boots, and she was--I'm not exactly sure of how much I said at this time but I remember telling bits and pieces.
Q  Go ahead.
A  And you know, I said, “There's blood all over the house.”  And “How are my kids?” and it was all interspersed, and a whole bunch of people were shouting at me, “What did you see?” and “Can you recognize them?  Did you know them?” and stuff like that.
Q  Do you recall mentioning the candle at that time?
A  I don't recall that, no.  I don't think that I ever specifically stated that I saw a candle.  I said I saw a girl with a hat and she looked like she was holding a candle in her hand, because there was a light on her face.  You know, it was an impression.
Q  Now what happened to you when you recall a nurse talking to you at Womack Army Hospital?
A  Well, I started yelling and screaming at her.
Q  Why were you yelling and screaming?
A  I didn't see the relevance of my social security number.  I mean I thought there was more important things.
Q  Such as what?
A  Well, you know, I have to admit, I--I thought that I had at least the consideration, and the chest tube ought to be taken into account and, and I assumed that I was shocky, at least in a state where I could go into shock, and I--myself--thought that I probably was in shock, and I thought that I should have an IV and--you know, it's all concurrent with other things and I was yelling at people to check on my kids, and where were they, and why weren't they at the hospital, and they said they were at the hospital, and everyone was okay.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I think we should stop for the day.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 0830 tomorrow morning.

(The hearing recessed at 1225 hours, 15 August 1970.)


(The hearing reopened at 0845 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that present in the hearing room is Mr. Segal and Lieutenant Malley, counsel for the accused; all counsel for the government are present, and the witness is present.

CPT BEALE:  Captain MacDonald, as you heard the investigating officer; Mr. Eisman and Captain Douthat are not present.  Do you consent to their absence at this time?

CPT MacDONALD:  Yes, sir, the only counsel that I desire to have present through all questioning is Mr. Segal.

CPT BEALE:  Okay, very well, your comments are noted.

COL ROCK:  At this time I wish to make a statement.  Let the record reflect that it has come to my attention that portions of Mr. Posey's testimony, given yesterday at this hearing were released to the press, and subsequently appeared in print.  I note, however, that his identity was withheld.  This is, in my opinion, contrary to the measures adopted by the investigating officer to insure the witness' safety at the specific request of the accused.  Let the record further reflect that the release and publication of information was by counsel for the accused and that neither the investigating officer, the legal advisor, recorder, nor counsel for the government did not release such information to the press.
    I remind you, Captain MacDonald, that you are under oath.  Proceed, counsel.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  I believe we adjourned yesterday, Captain MacDonald, you were at the juncture where you had been taken to Womack Army Hospital.  I want to pick up with some questions in regard to that.  Did you have occasion at some point while you were hospitalized to observe your own wounds?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now would you describe to the investigating officer what wounds you found that you had in or about your head?
A  On the left side of my forehead, over my left eyebrow I had a large contusion.  The skin was broken slightly, it wasn't a cut, it was an abrasion-type thing.  In the right hairline, in the frontal temporal region, I had a smaller bruise.  I do not believe the skin was ever broken.
At the left rear part, medically it is the left occipital, o-c-c-i-p-i-t-a-l region of the skull on the left side there were smaller contusions, what I think--I think there were two.
Q  How did you observe or ascertain those wounds on the left occipital area?
A  Well, my head hurt and I felt them.  They were just lumps there.  It wasn't--they weren't cut or anything, but I had some lumps.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe or note any injuries on your arms?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right, would you describe those to the investigating officer?
A  I had what appeared to be a stab wound from a--a sharp instrument.  My own guess would be that it was a knife, in the left biceps, and I had three puncture wounds also in that area, which I would take to be ice pick wounds, but the best you can really say, that there were four puncture wounds from a sharp instrument.
Q  Were there other wounds on your arms that you recall?
A  Yes, sir, I had a large bruise with swelling on my left arm, roughly the same area, slightly above the stab wounds and I had a scratch on my right arm.
Q  Now, did you have occasion to observe any wounds or injuries to your body?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe those, please?
A  I had a puncture wound in the right lower chest in the 7th intercostal space on the anterior part of my chest, actually in the mid-clavicular line. 
Q  Now did you have any others?  Just describe each one as you recall discovering or finding on your body now.
A  Yes, sir.  I had some scratches on my left pectoral region, the upper left chest with some, again the same type of puncture wounds, two or three.  Honestly, they were not very impressive to me.  They appeared--I would have guessed them to be ice pick wounds, or sharp instrument.  In the left upper quadrant of my abdomen, I had--it wasn't really two separate wounds, it was one wound about three inches long, but it had two--it was Y-shaped almost, with the Y pointing down, and it was what I would call a superficial wound, except that superficial is misinterpreted by lay people.
Q  What do you understand as a physician when you describe any injury to yourself or to anyone else as being a superficial-type wound?
A  Well, in this case, I didn't think it entered the abdominal cavity.
Q  Is that how you distinguish between what you, as a physician, would call a superficial wound, as oppose to some other descriptions for a wound that entered the body cavity?
A  That is correct.
Q  Did you observe any other wounds on your body other than what you've described at this juncture?
A  Yes, sir.  I had a series of puncture wounds across my abdomen.  It was again, these were the small puncture wounds that didn't appear to be bleeding, and in my own experience in treating patients, and from what I knew about--in this case, and what the investigators told me they found, I would have guessed they were ice pick wounds, and there were approximately ten.
Q  Approximately ten wounds?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now could you indicate by pointing on your body now and describing with moderated medical terms the location of those ten wounds?
A  Yes, sir, they were to the right of, well, there was two to the left.  Actually they were larger than the eight to the right, and the ones to the right were in the--on the abdomen, just superior to the umbilicus, the belly button.
Q  Now did you observe any other wounds on your body that you noticed?
A  Yes, sir.  In--I believe it was my left hand, between my thumb and my index finger, in the web, there were several small little cuts.
Q  Did you observe any other wounds?
A  I don't remember any, no.
Q  Was there anyway of ascertaining what the depth of the wound to your chest area was?
A  No, sir, except it had entered the chest.
Q  Was there any way of ascertaining the depth of any of the wounds that punctured the skin; those that you conclude were made by an ice pick or similar type sharp instrument?
A  No, sir.
Q  Why was it not possible to ascertain, or for you yourself to know how deep the wounds were?
A  Well, first of all, medically speaking, you wouldn't probe them.  There's no reason to probe them.  Even if it does enter the abdominal cavity you very often can't follow the same track when you try to probe them, so you don't even--you never probe them.
Q  Well, why is it that you couldn't follow the track of a wound later on, say in the hospital?
A  Well, the muscle is contracting again.  This is through the rectus area, and the muscle just contracts and it doesn't leave a hollow column, for instance, where it went through.  You can never follow this through again.
Q  So if you insert a probe into one of these puncture type wounds what would happen, if you inserted a probe at the hospital into a puncture wound?
A  You'd be stopped by the tissue, the fat or the fascia, f-a-s-c-i-a, which is a tough connective tissue covering muscle.
Q  Is there any medical procedure that you are aware of for determining for a doctor when he examines a patient to determine how deep into the abdominal cavity or other internal portion of the body an instrument has penetrated?
A  No, sir, you--what you do in a stab wound in this case, specifically of the abdomen, you just observe the abdomen, and if the bowel sounds become absent and the abdomen distends, and/or his blood count drops, meaning, you know, he's losing blood somewhere, you operate on him, but otherwise all you do is observe.
Q  Now when you say the abdomen distends, what do you mean in lay terms?
A  Well, the bowel, in effect becomes paralyzed.  It's a--it's a reflex action and the entire bowel stops functioning and the bowel just starts filling with gas and fluid and distends.
Q  And how does this appear on the surface of the body?
A  The abdomen distends up.
Q  Now while you were in the hospital, did you have any occasion to see investigators with the CID or any other law enforcement type agency?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you see investigators at various times from February 17th until--up to and including April 6th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  At any time, were you ever asked to view a person or persons for the purpose of determining whether they resembled the people who were in your home when you were injured yourself and your wife and children were killed?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were you ever shown or asked to view photographs of persons who were being considered as suspects in connection with the killings in the home?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to ask investigators in regard to such a matter?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe to the investigating officer what you are referring to?
A  On February 26th, when I was released from the hospital, I had been told by Captain James Williams that they had my wallet, and that there was a funny story about my wallet.
Q  Excuse me.  When you said they, who did you understand that to mean?
A  The CID, Mr. Grebner.
Q  Go ahead and describe the incident.
A  So I was released from the hospital and my mother and I went over to the CID office, and he gave me my wallet and explained that it had been missing for a period of eighteen hours, and that the money was gone but it didn't appear as though any credit cards were gone, and I took the wallet and checked the credit cards and there weren't any missing.  I asked him why he hadn't apprised me of it being missing, and he said they were in the midst of it when they found it eighteen hours later.
Q  In the midst of what?  I'm not sure I--
A  They were going to tell me that my wallet was missing, but before they got to me they had found the wallet.  I then said to him, “How is the case coming?” and he said, you know, we are extremely busy, we are running down hundreds of leads, and I said, “Have you made any arrest?” and he said, “We have people in custody.”  And I said, “I heard that you have arrested a girl.”  And he said, “I can't talk about it.”  And basically he knew what I meant and that ended the conversation.
Q  Well, what actually did--did--what were you trying to convey to him?
A  I think it was obvious, I should have seen the girl.
Q  Are you telling the investigating officer, at no time since 17 February until this very moment, have you ever been shown by any investigator or asked to view by any investigator any person who is a suspect, or the photograph of any person who is considered to be a suspect?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  Let's let the witness testify, not the counsel.  That's terribly leading.

CPT BEALE:  The question has been answered, Mr. Segal, in addition to that, so let's move to another question.

Q  Have you ever been able to personally check the contents of your home since 17 February to determine whether there are any missing items from your residence?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you know at this time whether there are some items of value that are missing from your residence?
A  We have been informed to that effect by Mr. Shaw.
Q  How did that come about?
A  Well, if I can just expound on this for a second.  One of them being, you know, when I was questioned on April the 6th, I was told that nothing was missing and I never had even thought about it.  It didn't seem important to me.
Q  Excuse me, now, you were told by whom that there was nothing missing from where?
A  Mr. Shaw.
Q  Told you that--
A  Nothing was missing from the house.
Q  All right, go ahead and describe how you came to the conclusion that there were missing items from your home.
A  Well, originally _ I don't remember the date--I think it was in May, April or May, Mr. Kassab, my father-in-law, and Mrs. Kassab, my mother-in-law, called and asked could they have two rings that belonged to their family and they had given to Colette, and I said sure, and I wrote up a written request and gave it to the CID, and they subsequently returned two rings to me, one of which was one of the rings I had asked for, and the other one was a costume jewelry ring, not a valuable ring.  I gave these to my mother-in-law and she gave them to Mr. Kassab, and they reiterated their request later, in June I believe it was, to have the other of the more valuable rings, and at this time I submitted another written request not only for that but for a ring I had given Colette, and--
Q  Have you ever been advised as to the disposition of the--either the second ring that the Kassabs had been after or the ring you had given to your late wife?
A  I have just been advised that Captain Thompson spoke with my lawyers and he had checked for it with the CID agents and could not find either of the two rings.
Q  Have you, yourself, other than the single occasion when you viewed your home in the presence of the investigating office, been back to your home since 17 February 1970?
A  Yes, sir, I went into the storage shed one day with two CID agents to get some personal effects from the storage area, athletic things, sir.
Q  And the storage area, is that located inside your house?
A  No, sir. It is a storage shed behind the house.
Q  Aside from that one episode have you ever been back in your house since 17 February?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were you ever told by anyone that there was in fact nothing missing from your house?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  He's answered that.

MR. SEGAL:  No.  He has not answered the question whether he was ever advised, he said he had never been there to determine himself, and now I wish to ask him whether he has been advised to the contrary, and was the basis shown to him or made to him for such an allegation that nothing was missing.  It becomes a matter of some concern as to motive and as to the reason why the government investigation apparently turned to Captain MacDonald, since they told him nothing was missing.

CPT SOMERS:  He has answered that question.  He's answered it twice.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.  You may answer the question.

COL ROCK:  Please restate the question to get it back on the record.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

Q  Have you ever been advised by anyone who has had access to your house that there are in fact no items missing from it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you tell the investigating officer under what circumstances and how you received such advice?
A  I was being--well, I would use the term interrogated on April the 6th, 1970, and Mr. Shaw said there's nothing missing from your house.
Q  Did you inquire of him as to how he arrived at that conclusion?
A  No, I did not.  I was in the midst of a rather traumatic experience, and it never entered my mind.
Q  Now there was testimony yesterday by yourself and by prior witnesses, that you had occasion to deal with persons who were involved in abusive drugs.  Did you, yourself, ever inform military authorities that one or more of your patients was, in fact, abusing drugs?
A  Informed--I informed on two occasions to a commanding officer, but I think we'd have to qualify these occasions before they make any sense to the investigating officer.
Q  All right, would you describe the two episodes you had occasion to refer to?
A  On one occasion I was the emergency room physician at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, and a soldier from the 82d Airborne came in and he was comatose, and he stopped breathing.  He had a respiratory arrest, and we resuscitated him, and over a period of about four hours he became stable, and I got in contact with Womack Hospital and arranged for an ambulance to transfer him with a medic in the ambulance.  During the course of the four hours that I was working with the patient, he told me that he used heroin and morphine and had on occasion sold it, and this is a gross example to me of the wrong type of use of drugs, dangerous types, and he had no family.  He lived in a trailer court next to Cape Fear Valley Hospital with another soldier who also used morphine and who, in fact, had brought him comatose to the emergency room.  And I called--I asked him who I could contact and he gave me no person other than his First Sergeant, and he was seriously ill.  He had--in effect, he had died at one point during the treatment.
Q  I'm not sure what you mean when you say he had died?
A  Well, his heart had stopped and he had stopped breathing.  If we hadn't done anything, he was dead.  We resuscitated him.  And I felt someone should know so I called his First Sergeant that night.  It was about 1 a.m. and I told him exactly what had happened and that he was being transferred to Womack and he thanked me for letting him know and he hung up.
Q  Did you advise the First Sergeant about what the man had told you what his activities with drugs were?
A  Yes, sir, I--I--said that he told me that he was a chronic and that he had sold heroin.
Q  Was there another occasion in which you had opportunity or reason to report the use of drugs by a soldier?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe that, please?
A  I was the emergency room physician at Womack Army Hospital, and a soldier came in from Special Forces, from the 7th Group, who was having an acute psychotic paranoid reaction, and his wife brought him in, and he--I gave him appropriate medication and calmed him down, and observed him for a period of about four hours as the medication was wearing off and he was fine, and I questioned him at great length, and he said that he had taken two tablets, given to him by a friend who had told him that they would make him feel good.  He didn't even know what they were.  He had just assumed from the reaction that they were LSD.  I called--it was Saturday night and I called his commanding officer who was--let me back up.
When a patient comes in with this diagnosis, the MP at the desk logs the diagnosis.
Q  The MP at what desk?
A  There's an admitting desk in the emergency room and before a patient is admitted, the MP logs in the diagnosis.  This is, I presume, one of the methods of finding out who, and where, and for what reason people are in the hospital.  You have to tell their commanding officer that a patient is in the hospital.  I went to the MP and I said, “Until I get this clarified, would you just write down that the patient had a drug reaction?”  You know, the term drug abuse or overdose would be more damaging to the soldier if nothing ever again came out of this, and I just said, “Would you mind writing it down as drug reaction.”  He said, “Sure” and I called his commanding officer at home on Saturday night.
Q  Do you recall who that was, by the way?
A  No, sir, I believe it was a Major, Commanding Officer of Delta Company of the 7th Special Forces Group, and I asked him about this soldier, and he knew this soldier and he was an outstanding type, and we discussed exactly what had happened.  I told him what I had said to the MP, and he thanked me for calling him and he would handle it from now on.
Q  Do you have any idea of the dates of those two episodes or the approximate month in which they happened?
A  The episodes with the Special Forces Soldier I think occurred January 10th.  I believe that was the Saturday night I was the physician at Womack Emergency Room.
Q  Excuse me one second.  The calendar I have, sir, indicates that January 10th was a Saturday.
A  The other episode was either in very late December or the first week in January.  I believe it was in January.
Q  We are talking about 1970?
A  1970.
Q  On both episodes?
A  Yes.
Q  Go ahead.  Do you have any better idea of when it was on that second episode?
A  The episode at Cape Fear?
Q  Yes.
A  I have seen much more drug reactions, bad trips, as they say, at Cape Fear than I have either in the dispensary or in the one time I worked at Womack, I had seen this one drug reaction.
Q  There was testimony in these proceedings about a lecture that took place in or about the middle of January 1970, which there was some discussion about whether communication to doctors about drug abuse of a soldier was privileged or not, an indication that what was said with a Chaplain was privileged, and what was privileged with a doctor.  Were you familiar, or did you know about that lecture having taken place?
A  I knew the lecture had taken place.  I was not present.
Q  You were not present yourself?
A  That's right.
Q  Were you aware or had you learned of the information that had been imparted to the troops in regard to this question of privilege?
A  I was.
Q  When were you discharged from the Womack Army Hospital?
A  February 26th, 1970.
Q  Now between the date you were admitted, February 17th and February 26th, did you have occasion to talk to or be interviewed, or give information to law enforcement investigators?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And thereafter, from February 26th until April 6th, 1970, did any law enforcement investigator come to you for further information in connection with this case?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to give information or attempt to impart information between February 26th and April 6th to law enforcement investigators?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did that come about, please?
A  Well, I called Mr. Grebner at least weekly on the phone and in addition I stopped in perhaps four or five times, and at which time I would tell them some things that I remembered that I hadn't told them earlier, or they would ask me--for instance, one time I went over to tell them about something that I had remembered.  I think it was in regards to this drug over-dose at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, and they re-fingerprinted me, but these were things always at my--I went to them about five times between February and April 6th.
Q  Now on April 6th, there was an interview in which you participated.  How did you come to be at the CID office on that particular date?
A  I had been calling Mr. Grebner roughly weekly, sometimes more, asking him how the investigation was going, were there any suspects, and what was the status of the things in my apartment.  In other words, I have a complete apartment of furniture and at the time I was trying to move off post and I wanted the living room furniture for my apartment or I was going to sell it, one of the two, and on Monday morning, April 6th, I called Mr. Grebner at 0830 and asked him how the investigation was going.  He said, “Fine,” and I said--he told me prior to check with him about the furniture, he would let me know.  So I was calling, I said, “How about my furniture?” and he said, “Why don't you stop over, I'd like to talk to you about it.”
Q  Now in response to that suggestion by Mr. Grebner, what did you do?
A  I went to the CID office.
Q  About what time did you get there?
A  Oh, about a quarter till nine, or ten to nine, Monday morning, April 6th, 1970.
Q  Now you have seen a copy of the tape recording of your discussion with the CID on April 6th, have you not?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  Does that transcript show all of the discussions that you had with the CID on that date?
A  No, sir, it does not.
Q  What, if anything, was omitted and where does it fit in to the flow of these transcripts?
A  The afternoon transcript was complete.  The morning transcript has an initial part of the interview not transcribed.
Q  Was the initial part of the interview that you say was not transcribed--was that taken in the same room and in the same place as the balance of the morning interview?
A  Yes, sir, I was in the same seat.
Q  Please describe for the investigating officer what happened, what you did when you arrived at the CID office on April 6th?
A  I arrived at the CID office at approximately 0845, April 6th, 1970.  I went in and the--someone said wait a minute, he'd check with Mr. Grebner, and he said go ahead in.  I went into the room and Mr. Grebner was in the room and he said, “Have a seat.”  So I took a seat and as I was taking a seat Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory came in the room behind me, and they had a very solemn appearance, you know, somber or businesslike, maybe that's a better word.  And I said--I looked around--I said, “Gee--I just--I didn't think it would take three people to turn over the keys to my apartment.”  And Mr. Grebner said, “Well, we'd like to talk to you about it first.”  And I said, “Fine.”  And he said he was the Chief Investigator on the case and that there were certain minor discrepancies that had come up and he would like for me to clarify them.  And I said, “Sure.”  And he said, “Well, then just before we do, let me read you your rights”, so that is when he read me my rights and then he--the interview began--the tape part of the interview.
Q  Now was any physical adjustment made in the CID office after you sat down and started talking to Mr. Grebner from the way it appeared when you first came in?
A  Well, they just kind of turned the desk light up so it was shining in my face, you know, it was--yes, they had made an adjustment.
Q  And you'd better describe that, please, because I was not there and do not know what they did.
A  Mr. Grebner had a desk lamp and he--as he was reading my rights--he said, “Can we proceed?” and I said, “Yes”, and he just turned--turned the light up.
Q  So that the bulb was exposed?
A  Well, I don't remember that.  I just remember that the light was now shining in my face, whereas before it had been shining down on his desk.  I didn't notice specifically--think of the bulb.
Q  What was your mental attitude at the time that Mr. Grebner started questioning you on April the 6th?
A  Well, I was--I immediately became confused as to why he read me my rights, but I believed what he said.  I thought he had some minor discrepancies that he wanted to clear up, and to put the interview in the proper perspective, Colonel Rock, I had just spent a very bad six weeks, you know.  I hadn't been sleeping and I'd lost about twelve pounds and I had obviously been trying to figure, to forget what had happened that night, and I had never set down and gone over the entire thing with anyone.
Q  Had you done that even in your own mind in the entire episode in a chronological order?
A  No, sir.  The best way that I found that I could handle what had happened was to think of little bits at a time.  I had never set down with anyone and gone over the chronology, sequence of events or the full story of what had happened.
Q  How were you able to obtain any sleep during that time of February 17th to April the 6th?
A  Sleeping pills.
Q  And how did you obtain those?
A  I--one of the physicians would write me a prescription and I would go and fill the prescription.
Q  Did you have any concern about your own safety from February 17th to April the 6th?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What if anything, did you do about it?
A  Initially I borrowed a pistol.
Q  You say initially.  Would you indicate about when that happened?
A  The day I got out of the hospital.
Q  Which was?
A  February 26th.
Q  And what did you do with that pistol?
A  Kept it under my pillow.
Q  How long did you keep the pistol?
A  I would say until after I had an MP guard on my door, when I was called a suspect.
Q  Which was when?
A  In April.  To clarify that a little more, I had applied for a pistol permit the end of March, and the normal procedure is it takes three days and they kept putting me off, and it was now--April 6th was about ten days after I applied for a pistol permit of my own, and I have never received it, so I just kept this borrowed weapon.
Q  And to whom had you made that application?
A  To the Provost Marshal's office.
Q  And that permit was to do what?
A  To buy and maintain a--a pistol in my room.
Q  You have not purchased any pistol yourself prior to making application?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever purchase a pistol during that period of time?
A  No, sir.
Q  I show you at this time, Captain MacDonald, exhibit marked A-31 for identification, a photograph of a drawing of what appears to be a young Caucasian female.  Does that drawing represent or resemble any person you've ever seen?
A  Yes, it does.
Q  Whom does it represent?
A  The person I saw in my house that night.
Q  You mean the female person of the group of four who were in your home on 17 February?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I show you a photograph of a drawing which has been previously marked A-36 of a Caucasian male with a mustache and ask you whether this drawing depicts any person that you recognize as having seen before?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you describe to the investigating officer who that resembles?
A  This was the Caucasian male in the middle of the group of three men at the foot of the bed, at the foot of the couch.
Q  Did the person who this drawing resembles inflict any of the blows upon you as you've described earlier?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Can you describe which blows or--
A  No, sir.
Q  Or whether there was a weapon?
A  I am not sure if--when I saw the blade that it was his hand or the other white male's hand, but one of the two, and both were punching me.

MR. SEGAL:  I ask the investigating officer to mark two of the photographs at this time of drawings.

Q  I show you at this time, Captain MacDonald a photograph of a drawing that has been marked A-40 for identification and ask you whether the drawing depicts any person or resembles any person that you've seen before?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who does that resemble?
A  The white Caucasian--the Caucasian male on the right side of the three people that I saw at the foot of the bed, foot of the couch, on 17 February in my home.
Q  Now I show you at this time a photograph of a drawing that has been marked A-41 for identification and ask you whether this drawing represents or resembles any person that you have previously seen?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who does that resemble?
A  It resembles the Negro male to the left of the group of three males at the foot of my couch on 17 February.
Q  Now can you describe to the investigating officer how these drawings came into existence?
A  Yes, sir.  My lawyers had been asking me for months to speak with an artist and make a representation of these people, and since I was down here and this artist was in Philadelphia and I was financially extremely involved with legal fees already, I--and I didn't think at the time that I could really make a representative drawing.  I was arguing with them, and they would call me weekly and say we have the man, we are sending him down.  I said I don't want to talk to him.  I don't remember that much, it's five months ago and I don't have that good a recollection and they explained to me that every witness, almost every witness feels this way, and you have to see the technique involved before you pass judgment.  And during the two-week recess we had they talked me into it.
Q  Now would you describe the technique that was applied in your work with the artist in developing these particular drawings?
A  Well, the artist would have two major things--a hairline with hair, and a facial outline, and he would put them together and he would say, is this a rough outline of the face.  In other words--
Q  Excuse me.  Did he make those outlines of the hair?
A  No, he had approximately fifteen of everything.  Fifteen sets of ears, fifteen sets of noses, fifteen sets of eyes, fifteen hair lines, fifteen facial things and he would put them together.
First, he would say, did the guy--did he have a terrific--anything outstanding, and I would say no, and this was why I felt that I really couldn't have a good description, and it was so quick and the lighting conditions were not that good.  And then he'd put some of these together and I'd say no, that doesn't look like him, then he'd put it together again and I'd say yes, that looks like it, and then he would say, were the eyeballs very heavy or very light, and I would say no, and he would pick out something in-between and I'd say yes, it looks pretty good, and it took a matter of hours, and we ended up with what I considered to be two very good likenesses and two moderate likenesses.
Q  Now which of the drawing represent what you have characterized as two very good likenesses?
A  Well, let me clarify what I meant.  What I meant was my recollection is better of two of the people than it is of the other two.
Q  Now has the artist accurately portrayed the persons as best you are able to describe them?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you have any quarrel or disagreement with the way the representation as prepared by the artist, based upon the information you gave?
A  No, sir.  He made modifications on each of the final drawing to make them to the best of my recollection.  So these are to the best of my recollection.  What I meant was that two of them, my recollections are not that good.
Q  Would you indicate please which two of the drawings are based upon the best recollection and best observation you made?
A  A-41, the Negro male and A-36, the middle of the three males, he is a Caucasian male.
Q  With the mustache?
A  With the mustache.

COL ROCK:  Those are the two you best recollect?

WITNESS:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  And this, although a light was supposedly shining on the face of the female?

WITNESS:  Yes, because I saw her probably the least.  It was the briefest glimpse and this is why I say I only have, really an impression.

Q  If I may ask you this, Captain MacDonald, has any CID agent or any other investigative or law enforcement agent, ever asked you to participate in the preparation of composite drawings in the type that we have shown you here this morning?
A  No, sir.
Q  Would you be willing to cooperate with law enforcement agencies in preparation of such a drawing?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.

CPT BEALE:  Overruled, Captain Somers.

A  Well, to be perfectly honest, I probably would have said the same thing to them, but I don't really think that I can give you a complete identification.  But if they had gone through the same procedure I am sure we would have ended up with the same results.
Q  If I may, I'd like you to turn for a minute to the April 6th situation when you were interviewed in the CID office by the three agents.  At that time what were the nature of the so-called discrepancies you were asked to correct or explain to the CID agents?  I don't mean to go into each one individually but generally, what were they asking or questioning you about?
A  Well, until they told me that they felt that I had committed the crime, I thought the discrepancies were extremely minor.
Q  Well, my question was not well put.  Let me put it to you this way.  Were you questioned at all about chronology of events, the order in which various things happened or the order in which you had reported to have done things on the morning of the 17th?
A  Yes.  First they let me give a narrative, roughly like I've given here, and then they asked me questions on the sequence of events.
Q  Have you actually ever given a narrative relation of the events on the 17th--of the 17th before April the 6th?
A  No, sir.
Q  Was that for the reason you have previously discussed here?
A  Yes, sir.  You mean a complete narrative?
Q  A complete narrative.
A  No, I did speak to agents in the hospital and I answered their questions but I never ran through step by step what had happened.
Q  Captain MacDonald, at this time I want to ask you to look at an item of apparel and ask you whether this item, which is a hat of some sort, resembles anything you've seen before?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What does this hat that I'm holding in my hand resemble?
A  It resembles the hat that I saw on the female in my house on 17 February.
Q  Can you describe this hat for the purpose of the record and I'll enter it as an exhibit?
A  It is a large white-colored hat with a floppy brim, and--well, that's it.
Q  May we have the hat thus described marked as an accused exhibit, sir?

COL ROCK:  I assume it's okay to mark on it.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, it is.  I would suggest perhaps on the inside, sir, under the brim.

CPT SOMERS:  You can just tag it.
    Are we going to--I'm wondering--are we going to substitute a description of it?  This is a pretty standard item, I understand, today.

COL ROCK:  What does opposing counsel think?

MR. SEGAL:  We may substitute a photograph of this actual hat.  We could have one made if that's agreeable.

CPT SOMERS:  We have no objections.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel know if these things, these objects come in sizes?

MR. SEGAL:  They do not.

COL ROCK:  Do they stretch?

MR. SEGAL:  I believe so.  Sir, at this time I would ask to have entered into the record a photograph of a drawing of a white male, which has been marked A-40 and photograph of a drawing of a Negro male marked A-41, and ask that we mark a white felt hat as A-42 and asked for leave to substitute a photograph of this actual hat and that the photograph thereafter serve in place of A-42.  Further, in clarification of the record's sake, as to the origin of the A-42 hat, I can state that it was purchased by counsel for the accused at a store in Fayetteville located at the intersection of Hay Street and the railroad tracks, approximately 11 p.m. last evening.  There are a number of other hats that can be purchased without any difficulty.

COL ROCK:  These will be so accepted in evidence and let the record reflect that counsel for the government, as well as the investigating officer, has had an opportunity to observe these items.

Q  Captain MacDonald, you yesterday described what you believed to be the color of the boots on the young woman in the house on that morning.  What was the color you described for us yesterday?
A  My impression was that they were light brown.
Q  Do you know actually whether they were light brown?
A  No, sir.  This was extremely fast and dark in the hallway.  I just--that was my initial impression.
Q  Captain MacDonald, would you please indicate to the investigating officer what was the nature of your feeling toward your wife, Colette?
A  Well, I loved her more than anything in the world.
Q  Did you consider your children to be more important in your life than your wife?
A  No, sir.  I mean--no.
Q  Do you believe, from knowing your wife over the period of time that we've heard described, that she was capable of murdering your two children?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  In retrospect do you feel that, say from the period of time you've been in the Army to February 17th, 1970, that you had neglected your wife in favor of attention to the children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Was there any difference in the attention or concern or affection that you showed your wife from the time you entered the Army to February 17th, then from the period before entering the Army?
A  No, sir, I just had more time to spend with them.
Q  Did you devote the additional time that you had to your children or to your wife?
A  To both.
Q  In reference to any stresses or strains in your own life, how would you characterize the period of time you were in the Army, as opposed to your time immediately before that, in internship in medical school?
A  By far it was the least stressful period in my--the preceding five years.
Q  What were your feelings towards your Army service?
A  I enjoyed it very much.
Q  Were you resentful or hostile of having to give two years of time toward military service?
A  No, sir.  If I had gotten the Berry Plan, which is a deferment for your residency training, then you would come in as a specialist, there is a distinct possibility that you never come in, and I had made the decision to volunteer after my internship to come in.  I didn't have to come in until after my internship.
Q  Were you under any compulsion or pressure from any sort to volunteer or agree to serve in Special Forces?
A  No, sir.
Q  Why did you elect to serve with Special Forces?
A  Because it was the best unit.
Q  Were you, in fact, fully medically qualified to serve in Special Forces?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have any prior medical condition which had any bearing on your fitness?
A  Oh I thought you meant was my training sufficient.
Q  I'm sorry, I didn't mean your medical training.  I mean your own personal medical condition or history.
A  No, sir, it was not sufficient to serve in Special Forces.
Q  Why not?
A  I had had a herniated lumbar disk, playing football, and I told less than the truth on my Army physical.
Q  And what was the purpose of that?
A  So I could go to jump school.
Q  And did you, in fact, go to jump school and receive qualifications?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at this time we'd like about a half-hour recess.

COL ROCK:  Why do you need half an hour, counsel?

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, it's going to take me that long to prepare for cross-examination.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed for half an hour.

(The hearing recessed of 1020 hours, 16, August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1101 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that counsel for the accused is represented currently by Mr. Segal and Captain Douthat.  Counsel for the government by Captain Somers.  I believe at this time that counsel for the government will proceed with its questioning of Captain MacDonald.  Is that correct?

CPT SOMERS:  That's correct, sir.

COL ROCK:  Will the witness please come to the witness table.

(Captain MacDonald complied.)

COL ROCK:  I remind you again, Captain MacDonald, that you are under oath.

CPT MacDONALD:  Yes, sir.
COL ROCK:  Please proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Captain MacDonald, you did not actually observe your children as their injuries were being inflicted on them, did you?
A  No, sir.
Q  And you do not, then, know of your own direct observation that Colette did not inflict those injuries, do you?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now drawing your attention to Sunday morning, the 15th, what time did you go to work that morning?
A  6 a.m.
Q  And where was this?
A  In Hamlet Hospital.
Q  And what duties did you perform at that time?
A  At Hamlet?
Q  Yes.
A  Well, the first thing I did was I had breakfast and then I made hospital rounds for the first time that day.  They are not busy in the emergency room so we also take care of the hospital.  I made hospital rounds, and I saw my first patient about 10 a.m.
Q  As I understand it, now, your tour of duty at the hospital was from 6 a.m. Sunday until 6 a.m. Monday.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And did you have an occasion to sleep during the day on Sunday?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And when was that?
A  I don't remember.  I had a nap right off the emergency room sometime in the morning.
Q  How long was the nap?
A  Oh, half an hour or forty-five minutes.
Q  Did you have any other naps during the day?
A  I don't think so.  I was reading some medical journals when I fell asleep in a chair for a while late in the afternoon, but not a real nap.
Q  And what time did you first go to bed in the evening?
A  Midnight.
Q  How long did you sleep that evening?
A  Well, I was awakened about twelve-thirty by the nurse to see a patient, then I went back to bed about one-fifteen, and slept until 6 a.m.
Q  Did you have any duties at 6 a.m.?
A  I checked--I didn't have any duties, no.
Q  Well, what did you do when you awoke?
A  I checked a sick patient and went home.
Q  And how far was it to home from there?
A  Sixty miles.
Q  How did you get home?
A  I drove.
Q  When you arrived at your house, what did you do?
A  I showered and shaved while my wife made breakfast.
Q  And what time did you eat breakfast?
A  Seven-thirty, possibly, quarter to eight.  I don't know.  I don't know specifically.
Q  Did your children eat with you?
A  I don't think Kristy did.  I think Kimberly did.
Q  Was Kimberly in school?
A  Yes.
Q  And did she go to school that day?
A  Yes, she did.
Q  What time did she go to school?
A  She went, I think, at nine o'clock.
Q  What time did you arrive at work?
A  Eight to eight-fifteen.
Q  And where is it that you worked, or did work at that time?
A  The 6th Special Forces Group Surgeon's Office.
Q  Now that's not a dispensary is it?
A  No, it's not.
Q  And as I understand it, your duties that day were primarily administrative.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  Did you eat lunch that day?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Where?
A  At home.
Q  And what time was it that you went to lunch?
A  Well, probably--I don't specifically remember--11:30 is the usual time we took off.
Q  And do you remember that it was probably the usual time?
A  Yes.
Q  And what did you do during lunch?  Anything particular?  Outside of eat lunch?
A  No.
Q  What time did you return to work?
A  I assume 1 p.m.  I don't remember specifically, but that's my normal routine and there was nothing out of the ordinary.
Q  And your duties during the afternoon were ordinary?
A  Right.
Q  What were those duties?  Do you remember what you did that afternoon?
A  No. Actually the only thing I remember was having a conversation with the Sergeant who ran the boxing team on post.
Q  What was your connection with the boxing team?
A  I worked out with them occasionally and I was--I was becoming their physician for the boxing team.
Q  Had you boxed before that?
A  Yes.
Q  In college?
A  Well, it's illegal to box in college.  We had a boxing club and I worked out with them.  I didn't actually ever have matches.
Q  What time did you leave work?
A  We played basketball starting approximately 4 p.m. at the JFK gym, the men from the office and myself.
Q  How long did you play?
A  Forty-five minutes.
Q  Have you played basketball before?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  What did you do when you finished playing basketball?
A  I went home, and picked up the kids and went to feed the horse.
Q  And the children were at home at that time?
A  That's correct.
Q  And where was the horse kept? What location?
A  I don't know the name of the street, but as you go off Bragg Boulevard towards Fayetteville, about a mile off post there's a Unique Shoe Shop and Unique Cleaners on the left side of the road, and it's the road next to it.  You go down to the end of the road.
Q  Are you speaking of Bragg Boulevard?
A  Yes, off to the left, off Bragg Boulevard at the Unique Cleaners.
Q  What kind of pony was this?
A  It was a little Shetland pony, stallion.
Q  And what did you do with the pony?
A  Just went down to feed him.
Q  How long did that take?
A  Well, the weather wasn't good.  I don't think the kids rode the pony that night, so probably it just took fifteen minutes.
Q  And what did you do after you had finished feeding it?
A  Went back and had dinner.
Q  What did you have for dinner?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Was dinner ready when you got back?
A  Ready or in the process of.  We had to eat before six because my wife was going to class.
Q  When did your wife leave for this class?
A  Six-fifteen.
Q  Did she have any books with her?
A  At least a notebook.  I don't know if there were any text books involved.
Q  Where is this class that she went to, physically?
A  It's about a hundred yards from XVIII Airborne Corps Headquarters.  I don't know the street name.  It's where the Finance building is.
Q  Once your wife left, what did you do?
A  I put away, put into the sink the dishes from dinner, and watched TV with the kids.
Q  And how were the children dressed at this time?
A  Well, I put them in their pajamas.
Q  Did you bathe them?
A  No.  I don't believe--now that's 50-50 chance because sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't.  I don't have a recollection of it.
Q  But you put them in their pajamas?
A  Yes.
Q  Was this before or after you put the dishes in the kitchen?
A  It probably would have been after.
Q  Well, what time was it, do you remember, that you put the dishes in the sink?
A  Six-fifteen, just as we finished dinner.
Q  And then you say you watched television with the children?
A  Right.
Q  Did you watch children's shows or what did you watch, not by name?
A  Well, we weren't just lying there watching television.  I was reading to the kids basically, and--until seven o'clock when Kristy went to bed.
Q  Did you take her to bed?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you give her anything such as a bottle?
A  Yes, I--she usually went to bed with a bottle.
Q  What kind of a bottle is this?  Is this regular milk or chocolate milk?
A  She usually had chocolate milk.  She almost always had chocolate milk, so I say that just because that's what I always made her.  I don't have a recollection of doing something any different.
Q  I see.  And thereafter when you had put Kristy to bed, what did you do?
A  I went back in the living room on the floor and fell asleep until Kimmie woke me up for Laugh-In.
Q  What was Kimmie doing when you fell asleep?
A  She was sitting there playing with a--books or crayons or something.
Q  What time was Laugh-In?  Do you remember?
A  8 p.m.
Q  And Kimmie woke you up?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were you sleeping?
A  On the floor in the living room.

COL ROCK:  Did you say Kimmie woke you up laughing?

WITNESS:  No, no.  For Laugh-In, the TV show.  That was her favorite TV show and we always watched it together on Monday nights and she had noticed that I had dozed off and woke me up when it came on.

Q  Did you watch the show together?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you do anything else during that time the show was running?
A  No.
Q  And when was that show over?
A  9 p.m.
Q  When did Kimmie go to bed?
A  9 p.m.
Q  Did you take her?
A  Yes, well, yes.
Q  Did you do anything special when you took Kim to bed?
A  Nothing out of the ordinary.
Q  And how was she dressed?  Pajamas or nightie or--
A  I really don't remember.  She had plenty of both and I don't remember which one I put on her.
Q  And what did you do after you put Kim to bed?
A  I went back and watched television.
Q  And what did you watch?  Do you know?
A  Well, I think it was Bob Hope--the Bob Hope Special.  It was some kind of musical variety show, and I think he had a special that night rather than the schedule as shown.
Q  How were you dressed at this time?
A  I think that I had probably gotten into pajamas.  The only reason I say that is because I had been playing basketball and when I come home from that I usually shower and change and since I wasn't going to be out that evening, I probably put pajamas on.
Q  But you are not sure?
A  No.
Q  When did your wife come home?
A  Between nine-thirty and a quarter to ten.
Q  What was the first thing she did when she came home?
A  Put the milk in the refrigerator.
Q  Did she spend any time in the kitchen?
A  Not that I remember.  She was just bustling around and, putting away her books and what she had brought at Mallonee Village.
Q  And what did she do once she had done all this?  Bustling around, putting things away.
A  Well, I think she changed into her pajamas and came out to the living room.
Q  Did she take a shower?
A  I don't think so.  I don't think she took a bath that night.
Q  And as I understand it, you don't remember what kind of pajamas she was wearing.
A  Right.
Q  Did she usually wear pajamas as opposed to a nightgown or a nightie or something?
A  No, I mean--not usually, though she had both and again it was a 50-50 thing, same as Kimmie.
Q  But you recall that these were pajamas?
A  No, I don't specifically recall that.  I really don't know.
Q  When she came back out, what did she do?
A  She sat in the living room with me there.  Well, for part of the time, at least, she was sitting on the couch.
Q  Where were you sitting?
A  Where was I sitting?
Q  Right.
A  Well, initially I was lying on the floor watching television, and then I was sitting on the couch for a while.
Q  What did you talk about?
A  Nothing that stands out in my mind.  I--
Q  Did you talk about her class?
A  Briefly.
Q  And what did that conversation consist of?
A  She just mentioned that she thought her professor was a--was good and that she enjoyed the class and they got into a lot of class discussions.
Q  What kind of class was it, do you know?
A  Child Psychology class.
Q  You remember it now?
A  Now, I do, yes.
Q  At the time you gave the statement on the 6th of April, you did not remember that, however?
A  Right.  Would you like to show me the statement, so I could--if you are going to question me along that line?
Q  No, not at the moment, I won't.  And what else can you remember that you talked about between yourself and your wife?
A  Really nothing stands out, at all.  It was just a routine evening.
Q  You didn't discuss your day's work?  There's nothing else you remember?
A  Well, we discussed the--the possibility that I was going to Russia with the boxing team.
Q  And in what capacity would that have been?  As the team's physician?
A  Right.
Q  What shows did you watch?
A  I really don't specifically remember.  There was again, I think, another--I'm not sure--but I think it was another musical variety type thing from ten to eleven, until the news came on.
Q  Basically then, while your wife was there, you watched television?
A  Well, I--television is boring to me, and I probably was reading my mystery at the same time I was watching television.  That's what I usually do.
Q  Do you remember the name of this mystery?
A  No, it was a Mickey Spillane mystery.  I had finished all the good ones I had.
Q  You say your wife may have had a drink.  Do you remember if she did and when this would have been?
A  Yeah, probably around the time that the news came on.  She often did this.  We both often did it, getting ready for bed.
Q  And then you watched the Johnny Carson show after the news.  Is that correct?
A  That's right.
Q  Did your wife watch any part of the Johnny Carson show?
A  Yes, she did.
Q  How much of it?
A  I don't remember specifically.  I know we were into the Johnny Carson show when she went to bed.  I would guess that she went to bed around midnight.
Q  Did she usually go to bed before you did?
A  Sometimes, not usually.
Q  But she went to bed about midnight this night?
A  Yes.
Q  What did you do after she had gone to bed?
A  I finished watching the Johnny Carson.
Q  Which ended when?
A  About 1 a.m. on the 17th.
Q  And then what?
A  I washed the dishes.
Q  Did you wear gloves when you washed the dishes?
A  I think I did.
Q  What kind?
A  I don't remember.  She had several kinds around.  There was at least two pairs on the kitchen sink.  There was a heavy yellow kitchen type of glove and some of the surgeon's gloves that I had brought her home.
Q  How many surgeon's gloves had you brought her home?  Do you know?
A  I don't remember.  I had a whole box, the initial box they came in.
Q  Where did she keep them?
A  Either under the kitchen sink or in the closet in the hallway.  The main closet in the hallway.
Q  When you finished the dishes, what did you next do?
A  I was going to bed, but I didn't.  I didn't feel I was really tired or anything and I finished my mystery.  I was in the middle of a mystery.
Q  Now as I understand it, Kris awoke at sometime during this period, is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  Was this before or after you washed the dishes?
A  I don't remember.  I think it was before.  I think it was when I was watching Johnny Carson, but I'm not sure.  I think I remember the TV was still on and I turned it down when she woke up.
Q  And what drew your attention to her?
A  She was crying.
Q  And what did you do?
A  I probably--well, I filled her bottle.
Q  With chocolate milk again?
A  Well, the only reason I say chocolate milk is because that's what I almost always made her.  She liked chocolate milk, and I don't specifically remember making chocolate milk, but when I got her a drink, it was usually that, if we had chocolate in the house.
Q  So you gave her another--or refilled her bottle?
A  Right, right.
Q  Did she go back to sleep or did you hear any more from her?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  Then you say you finished your novel?
A  Right.
Q  What time did you finish your novel?
A  I would say about 2 a.m.
Q  Once you had finished your novel, what did you do?
A  I turned off the stereo set, shut off the lights and went in to go to bed.
Q  Now what was playing on the stereo set?
A  I don't specifically remember.  I think it was an FM station, because I remember--I think I remember getting up to lock the station in, the station kept drifting off.
Q  Did you do anything else preparatory to going to bed?
A  Probably went to the bathroom.
Q  Did you check the doors?
A  No.
Q  Did you check the windows?
A  Not to go around to check the windows.  I--I probably looked in the kids' room to make sure that--you know--the rain wasn't--especially Kristy slept right under a window almost.
Q  Was it raining?
A  It was raining some time during the night.  I don't really know if at 2 a.m. it was raining.
Q  You had a cat, did you not?
A  Yes.
Q  Where was the cat when you went to bed?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Was it inside the house, so far as you know?
A  Yeah, it probably was.  I don't remember.
Q  Did you usually leave that cat in or put it out at night?
A  Inside.
Q  And did you brush your teeth or do anything of this nature before going to bed?
A  I'm sure I did.
Q  And what bathroom would you have used to do that?
A  I think probably the small bathroom in the--off the utility room.
Q  Which means that you would have gone through the master bedroom?
A  Right.
Q  When you did that, assuming that you did it, did you notice then where Kimmie was?  Or Kris.  I'm sorry.
A  No.
Q  When you checked the bedrooms, did you notice that Kris was not in her bed?
A  No, you are putting words in my mouth.  I never said I checked the bedrooms.  You asked me if I checked the windows, and I said that I would notice if the windows were open.  I didn't specifically go around and check windows.

COL ROCK:  Captain MacDonald, I don't think he's putting words in your mouth.  I think he's asking you a question.

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Proceed, counselor.

Q  Do you remember whether you checked the windows in the bedroom or not?
A  Not specifically.  That's the only one I would be worried about, because she kicked off her covers--
Q  And you might have checked that?  I'm sorry; I didn't mean to interrupt you.
A  No, I probably checked hers.
Q  And you don't remember noting that Kris was not in her bed?
A  No.  When I brought her the bottle, when she awakened and I brought her the bottle that would have been my last real check.
Q  What lights were on as you were closing up the house?
A  A light in the kitchen and a light in the bathroom in the hall.
Q  What was the last thing you did before you went to the bedroom to get in bed?
A  Probably went to the bathroom.
Q  And this would have been the bathroom off the utility room?
A  I would think so.  I usually--I usually had my toothbrush in there.  Sometimes the kids put it in the other one, and then I went in and brushed my teeth in the other one, but I think it would have been in the bathroom off the utility room.
Q  Now when you went to go to bed, what did you find?
A  Kristy was on my side of the bed.
Q  And your side of the bed, is which side?
A  The right.
Q  Was your wife in bed?
A  Yes.
Q  Was Kristy close to your wife or on the other side of the bed or where?
A  She was close to my wife.
Q  Was she asleep?
A  Yes.
Q  Did she have anything with her?
A  I assume she had hr bottle with her because, well, when she played around at night she usually carried her bottle with her.
Q  Well, where was the bottle?  Do you remember?
A  I don't remember.
Q  What did you do as the result of Kris being in your bed?
A  I picked Kristy up and brought her back in her own bed.
Q  And what about the bottle?
A  Well, assuming she had it with her, I would bring it with her.  In either case, when I left her in her bed she had her bottle.  Whether I picked it up in the master bedroom or whether it was still in her bed, and I brought her back to her own bed.
Q  Where was the bottle when you had her in her own bed, where was the bottle?
A  I gave it to her.
Q  Did she awake when you moved her?
A  No, she just--well, not really awakened.  She kind of groped around and you give her the bottle, and then she just holds the bottle.
Q  I see.  Now as I understand it you had been having the experience of Kris getting in bed with you for a month or so prior to this.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  And how often was that?
A  Several times a week.
Q  And you say there was some difference of opinion between you and your wife as to precisely how to treat this.  Would you tell us about that?
A  Sure.  My wife was willing to get up at night and make and give her the extra bottle, or--not the same thing happened every night.  Kristy would awaken every night, and she would either go to Kimmie and climb in with Kimmie, or she would just want a bottle, or she would come in with us, and I felt that we should do with her what we had done with Kimmie, and that is keep putting her back in her own bed, even if she started crying, and Colette felt that it was no big deal and she didn't mind getting up to get the bottle or whatever it was.
Q  Now when Kristy got in bed with you, why did this cause the musical bed arrangement that you mentioned on direct examination?
A  Well, sometime I wouldn't even know Kristy had gotten in bed, but she'd be pushing Colette or something, or kicking Colette and Colette would wake up easier as Kristy got into bed, and so Colette would get up and either go to Kristy's bed or go to the couch, and sometimes Kristy would get up again and leave us and go to Kim, and she wake Kimmie up and Kimmie would end up going to Kristy's bed.
Q  Now this period prior to the night of the 16th, did you ever get up and go to the couch as the result of Kristy being in bed with you?
A  Sure.
Q  And on this evening you say Kris had wet the bed?
A  Right.
Q  How much of the bed was wet?
A  Oh, a circle on my side of the bed.  I don't know, I would say a foot and a half to two feet across.
Q  And you took Kris back to her own bed first before you did anything else?
A  Correct.
Q  And you took the bottle, if it was in your bed, but at any rate you gave her the bottle when you put her in her bed?
A  Right.  Kristy ended up with the bottle in her own bed.
Q  Did you change Kristy?
A  No.
Q  Why?
A  Because she was sleeping.  I didn't feel like waking her.
Q  What happens to someone who stays wet with urine through the night?
A  Most of the time, nothing.
Q  It has no bad effects?
A  It can have some bad effects.  She can get a diaper rash.
Q  But you didn't feel that it was necessary to change her in this case?
A  No, because Kristy would usually wet herself once during the night if she had several bottles.  Children that get diaper rash are kids who usually--it is from feces, from bowel movement, or from repeated passage of urine so that they stay soaked all night, but this was not the case.
Q  Why did you decide to go to the couch?
A  Because my half of the bed was wet.
Q  Did it occur to you to have the bed changed?
A  No, absolutely not.
Q  And so you went to the couch?
A  Right.
Q  And you took a blanket with.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  Can you describe that blanket?
A  I believe it was wide-weave afghan type of blanket.  In other words, it's a kind of very rough weave with holes in the blanket as part of the weaving pattern.
Q  And you went to bed on the couch in what position?
A  With my head towards the front or south part of the house and my feet towards the hallway.
Q  And you were covered by the afghan?
A  Correct.
Q  Were you wearing your glasses that evening?
A  Was I wearing them that evening?
Q  Yes.
A  Surely.
Q  Do you normally wear your glasses?
A  Well, I was in the midst of switching from glasses to contacts but I was still wearing my glasses, because the contacts I had at the time didn't fit me right.
Q  Are you wearing contacts right now?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were your glasses when you went to bed?
A  I don't specifically remember.  They were probably on the coffee table.
Q  And where was the coffee table?
A  Next to the couch.
Q  How far away from the couch?
A  Oh, a foot and a half.
Q  Did you have some slippers?
A  Yes.
Q  Had you been wearing them?
A  Well, I usually put them on when I came out of the shower and I took them off and, you know, walked around barefooted for the rest of the night.
Q  What time was it that you went to bed?
A  Approximately 2 a.m.
Q  And what were the lighting conditions out there in the living room at that time?
A  There was a light in the kitchen and there was a light in the bathroom in the hallway.
There wasn't any light on in the living room.
Q  Would you describe the lighting conditions in the living room as poor there?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you have any difficulty going to sleep?
A  No.
Q  Do you--would you describe yourself as a heavy sleeper?
A  At home, yes.  Just--you know, since I've been an intern.  I never used to be a heavy sleeper.
Q  And do you ever--have you ever had occasion to awaken during the night with one of the children crying and tend to it?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you share these duties with your wife?
A  Well, it was very uneven sharing.  I probably had four or five percent of the duty of getting up at night.
Q  Now, what specifically awakened you?
A  A scream.
Q  Whose?
A  Colette.
Q  This was a wordless scream to the best of your memory?
A  Yes.
Q  And it was followed by some words.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct. 
Q  And those words were?
A  “Help me, Jeff.  Help, help.  Why are they doing this to me?”
Q  Did you hear something else?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  And what was that?
A  I heard Kimberly.
Q  And what was Kimberly saying?
A  “Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.”
Q  Did you hear any other noises?
A  As I awakened?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  And your reaction when you heard these noises was what?  What did you do?
A  Well, I went to sit up, pushed the blanket so I could sit up, to go find out what was happening.
Q  And how far did you get sat up?  Did you get all the way upright?
A  No.
Q  What did you first see?
A  I just--what appeared to me just to be a group of people.
Q  How many?
A  My first impression was three.
Q  Where?
A  At the foot of the couch.
Q  Describe these people as best you can.
A  To the left, either at the end of the coffee table, or in the alley between the coffee table and the foot of the couch, was a Negro male, hair short to moderate, nothing distinguishing with an Army field jacket on.
Q  Any idea as to his height?
A  Well, not really, because I never was standing, and if, you know, it is really difficult to estimate height lying down looking up at someone.  I just--the only way that I had of estimating height was an average type thing, and more importantly to me was the difference in the height in the people.  It wasn't a matter of, you know, whether they were 5-8 to 5-10, but they looked normal, and the white male in the middle was the shorter of the three.
Q  Now you have described the Negro.  Go on and describe the other two.
A  The middle male was the shorter of the three; I would say an inch or two.  Well, I will say at least two inches but--because you could see that he was shorter.  He had moderately short hair, again, and what I thought was a thin mustache, and he had a thin kind of narrow face.
Q  And the other individual?
A  He--the third Caucasian male, he was the one to my right at the foot of the couch, and was just about as tall as the Negro, and again, it is difficult to describe.  I wasn't--there was nothing outstanding, no beard or glasses or anything like that, no extremely long hair.  It was moderately long hair, and really I would have to put it together piece by piece, the way I did it with the artist to give you a better description.  You know, he didn't have fat lips or bushy eyebrows.  He was just a person.
Q  And these people were already in the living room at the time you awoke?
A  That's correct.
Q  Do you have any idea, by the way, whether any of your doors were locked?
A  Well, when Colette came in I think she locked the front door, and that's the only one I know for sure.
Q  You don't know anything about the kitchen door?
A  No, sometimes I went in to get a bottle and I would check it, but I don't specifically remember doing it that night.
Q  What was these two white men doing when you first saw them?
A  Just standing there.
Q  Could you see their hands?
A  I didn't even notice.
Q  Then you didn't notice anything unusual or peculiar about their hands, or anything they might have been carrying?
A  Correct.
Q  Now what was the first action that took place?
A  The Negro male moved towards me.
Q  And how was he doing this?  What path?
A  It's only a matter of a step.  Isn't a path.
Q  All right, how was the step taken?
A  Well, he just sort of--it appeared to me he took a step down towards me, between the coffee table and the couch.
Q  How much room did he have in that area?
A  Oh, a foot and a half, a foot, maybe.
Q  And was he holding something?
A  Yes.
Q  And what was it?
A  It appeared to be a club.
Q  Where was this club when you first saw it?
A  It was just--I didn't--don't remember when I first saw it. I saw it as he was raising it.
Q  From what position was he raising it?
A  He was raising it over his right shoulder.
Q  Was he using one or two hands?
A  Two hands.
Q  What did you do as the result of this?
A  Well, as he started swinging at me I fell backwards and put my arm up.
Q  How did you accomplish this move back?
A  I leaned backwards.  I was half way coming up.  I was at maybe a 45 degree--it only happened, you know, two or three seconds.
Q  I understand that.  I simply want the best description.
A  As I was pushing up off the couch, I was hearing this and seeing this and he started--he took a step towards me--and raised the club, and I just moved back, you know, started leaning back down and I put my arm up.
Q  Which arm?
A  Left arm.
Q  What happened?
A  Well, he swung at me and he hit me.
Q  Swung with both hands?
A  I--I can't answer that.  It appeared to be, yes.
Q  Was he swinging over his head or by his shoulder or do you have any idea?
A  No.
Q  How high is your ceiling?
A  I don't know.  It's the--I believe it is the highest one because I don't think the ceiling comes down when the floor comes down two steps, but it might.  Probably eight feet, nine feet.
Q  What happened when he swung this club?
A  He hit me with it.
Q  Where?
A  On the combination of my left arm and my left forehead.
Q  And you fell back as the result of this.  Is this right?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you fall completely in a prone position?
A  Yes.
Q  What did the Negro do?
A  I don't know.  I was stunned.
Q  When you first were capable then of observing again, what did he do?
A  He was raising the club again.
Q  And you did what?
A  I put my arm up again.
Q  Did he swing the club?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  And what was the result that time?
A  Somehow I was holding his arm.
Q  Which arm?
A  I don't know.  I think it was his right arm.
Q  Were you holding it with one hand or two?
A  I ended up with two.  I just sort of blocked it and my hand was right next to his.  I just sort of pushed my arm this way and my hand was then on his sleeve, and then I grabbed him with both arms, with both hands.
Q  What kind of sleeve was this?
A  Well, my impression again was that it was an Army field jacket, but this isn't because I sat up and said he's got a field jacket on.  This is a--just a really brief impression, and then I later saw stripes.
Q  And you had hold of his sleeve?
A  Yes.
Q  Did that stop the blow?
A  Well, the blow had already been stopped.
Q  By your having grabbed his arm?
A  Well, the combination of that or, you know, it glanced off my shoulder or something, but I was holding onto his arm.
Q  Where was the club then?  Down or up, when you finally got it stopped?
A  I don't know.  I assumed it was pointed down because I had his arm.
Q  And what did you do?
A  I held on to his arm.
Q  Did he swing the club again?
A  Not at that time.
Q  What did he do?
A  He was just struggling, trying to pull his arm away and I was pulling myself up to a sitting position by pulling on his arm.
Q  During this period did you get a look at this club?
A  Not a look at it, no, I just--as he was pulling away, I was sliding down on his arm and I ended holding onto the club.
Q  What did the club feel like?
A  I--I don't distinctly remember.
Q  Was it round or square?  Do you know that?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Was it difficult to hold on to?
A  When he was jerking it out of my hand, yes, it was.
Q  What were the other two males doing at this time?  Do you know?
A  They were punching me in the chest.
Q  When did they first start punching you in the chest?
A  As I was pushing back up after being hit in the head the first time.
Q  Were they both punching you?
A  I honestly can't answer that.  I know I just felt blows as I was being punched in the shoulder and head area and chest.
Q  Where were these two men standing as this was going on?
A  At the foot of the couch.  Perhaps they were kneeling on the end of the couch, but they were still in front of me and I was still on the couch.
Q  Were they still side by side?
A  Yes, I think they would have had to be.
Q  And they were reaching, I gather, quite a ways to strike you, were they not?
A  Well, I really don't know.  You know, I was pulling myself up, first on the man's arm and then on his club, so I was moving towards the end of the couch.
Q  Were you in an upright position when you were first struck by these blows?
A  When they first punched me?
Q  Yes.
A  I was getting into an upright position, right.  I probably--already had my left foot--was off the couch on the floor and I was trying to push up forwards still holding on to the club--so I was leaning forward and pushing up with my left foot.
Q  And you were not wearing your glasses at this time, were you?
A  No.
Q  When was it that you first felt this blow to your chest that impressed you so much?
A  Immediately in that--within the next few seconds.
Q  Was this during the time that you were struggling with the Negro and the club?
A  Oh, yes, I--I think it was.
Q  And when you felt this impressive blow, you let go of the club?
A  Yes.
Q  And you did what?
A  I sort of was pushing and shoving and trying to punch the people in front of me.
Q  Where was your pajama top at that time?
A  It was approximately at this time that it was around my--my arms but I--I don't know how it got there.
Q  You don't remember it coming over your head?
A  No.
Q  Was it around both your arms?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Where?
A  Well, it was across my forearms initially and then it was just around my wrist and hands.
Q  Was this the time then that you got hold of a hand?
A  Yes.
Q  What was in that hand?
A  I just noticed a--sort of a blade of some type.  I didn't--I can't make any statement other than that.  I just noticed something in his hand and I thought to myself that it was a blade.
Q  Did you have the hand, the wrist, or what part of the anatomy were you hanging onto?
A  I had his hand at one time and my hand was around his hand.
Q  And--
A  This happened more than once, by the way, you know.  I was holding a hand more than once.
Q  And in each case did the hand have a knife in it?
A  I'm not sure.  I--I remember seeing a blade twice, and I know I was holding a hand at least twice, but I'm not sure that they are always connected.
Q  Anything peculiar about this hand?  Was it particularly strong or was it--it was a white hand, I gather?
A  Well, my impression, as I told the investigators, was that the hand had a--heavy rubber glove, but when you write this down in black and white it sounds so definite.  This is an instantaneous impression.  I--I described it as--

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  Could you describe it as you remember it now?  Would that be feasible?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  It appeared to me to be a rough-grained rubber glove of the type used in a kitchen.

Q  What color was it, do you remember?
A  No.  It appeared light.
Q  Was it--do you think the rubber glove was from your kitchen?
A  I have no way of knowing that.  It could have been.
Q  And when you wound up with the pajama top around your arms, what were you trying to do?
A  Well, I was trying to hit these people, but I couldn't move one arm at a time.
Q  What was this Negro man doing during the time that you were struggling with the two white males?
A  Well, I felt one distinct blow on my left shoulder, but that's the only thing I really remember.
Q  What stopped that blow?
A  I don't know.  I just--I know I was hit fairly hard on the left shoulder that one time.  This is as I was starting to--right at the end of the couch as I was getting up and pushing into these people.
Q  At what point did you first notice this female?
A  This was way back as the Negro was just sort of moving towards me.  This is really a fleeting glance, nothing more than that.
Q  Well, where was she standing?  Would it have been behind the three that you first saw?
A  Well, the three was sort of in a line facing me, and yes, she was behind them.
Q  And you saw what, now, when you looked at her?
A  I really only saw a hat and hair and a brief outline of her face and it appeared as though it was lit from beneath.
Q  Describe the hat, please?
A  Well, it appeared to be a wide-brim, floppy, light-colored hat.
Q  Light?
A  Light-colored.
Q  Do you know specifically what color?
A  No.
Q  Now while you were struggling with these people and getting in an upright position, did you finally get on your feet?
A  Not fully.  I had my left foot on the floor at one time, and I was pushing off it, but that's all I really remember.
Q  Did you at any time get in any kind of a standing position?
A  No, not fully, no.
Q  How close to a standing position can you remember getting?
A  Well, I'd say my left leg was almost straightened out and I was off the couch, probably on my knee, my right knee, with my left foot, and my right knee still on the couch, at one time.
Q  Up in a more or less standing position except that your knee was on the couch?
A  Right.  This was when I felt the--a blow on my left shoulder.
Q  While you were struggling then in this upright position, where were the two white men?
A  Right in front of me.
Q  Still right in the same position?
A  Right there.
Q  And what were they doing?
A  They appeared to be punching me.
Q  How many of these punches, all total, did you sustain?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Was it many?
A  Yes.
Q  And were they hard blows?
A  A lot of them didn't appear that effective to me.  I was--you know--I was, you have to realize I was really dizzy and my--when I say I literally saw stars, I mean it.  You know, you have this white light pounding in your head, and you can't clear your head, and I just--some of the blows--a lot of the blows seemed light to me, and that's why the other one seemed so remarkably different and I remember, to myself, that gee, he just hit me.
Q  Do you remember being struck by fists specifically?
A  I thought so, yes.  I think so now, yes.
Q  And you describe this as a rain of blows.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Now you say that you began to fall forward.  Is that correct?
A  I was pushing forward.
Q  And did you at some point begin to fall forward?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were the white men as this happened?
A  I don't know.  I mean I assume that they just stepped sideways or backed up into the hall or something.  I don't know.  I know I was still in contact with people.

COL ROCK:  Excuse me, counselor.  In order to shorten my cross-examination later on, when you say you fell forward, do you mean forward toward the end of the couch, or off to the left of couch, or to which way?

WITNESS:  No, sir, at this time I was already--if I could just show you for a second it would be much easier.

COL ROCK:  Is this okay, counselor?

CPT SOMERS:  I have no objection.  I think it would help considerably.

CPT MacDONALD:  For instance, if this speaker were the end of the couch, sometime I was--I was like this, and I was towards the end of the couch.

CPT SOMERS:  Now, at this time let me describe this for the record.  You are facing the speaker you described as the end of the couch.  You have your right knee up on the platform.  You have your left foot down on the floor and you are in an upright position.

CPT MacDONALD:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  Then your knee is approximately eighteen inches from the end of the couch.  Is this correct?

CPT MacDONALD:  Well, sir, I wouldn't say it was this distance.

COL ROCK:  I mean in your demonstration here?

CPT MacDONALD:  Right, correct.  This is where I would guess from my recollection of the struggle.

COL ROCK:  Thank you; proceed, counselor.

Q  I'm still not clear, however, Captain MacDonald, in what direction you fell.
A  Towards the end of the couch.  Actually it appeared I was going off the couch, so during the struggle I must have been inching down the couch, because I was going off the end of the couch.
Q  Was there anything that broke your fall or that you struck as you were falling?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Do you remember landing?
A  No.
Q  At what point did you lose consciousness?
A  Well, this is the last thing I remember.
Q  Falling forward is the last thing you remember?
A  Right, correct.
Q  And where was the girl at that time?  Do you know?
A  I don't know.
Q  But you remember seeing a knee?
A  Yes.
Q  And where was that knee?
A  It appeared to be in front of me.
Q  Would that put it in the dining room?
A  Well, it could have been, but more likely it was on the stairs, or back into the hallway.
Q  Well, if it were on the stairs, would it not be to the right of you?
A  No, because as I was--from the end of the couch, to fall off the end of the couch, the stairs are right here--well, yes edging towards the right, yes.
Q  Now that couch is right up against the east wall, is it not?
A  Correct.
Q  Very close to it?
A  Correct.
Q  And it's what--or would have been then--about two or three feet from the stairs in the hall?
A  It might have been, but I thought it was closer.  I thought it was within a foot or eighteen inches.  It might be two feet.
Q  Okay, a space of two feet?
A  Right.
Q  And the knee you saw was in front and maybe to your right?
A  Correct.
Q  Now describe for us, please, what you saw--what you recall specifically or the characteristics of what you saw?
A  I just saw a very brief glimpse of what appeared to be a knee on top of a boot.  In other words, at no time did I see a person and look all way down and see bare knees.  This is totally separated from my other observations.  I have a recollection of a knee on top of a boot as I was seemingly falling forward.
Q  And apparently that leg was not wearing pants?
A  Correct.
Q  And you presumed that this leg belonged to the female?
A  Yeah, yes.
Q  How were the two white males clothed, by the way?
A  The only thing I remember was appeared to be light-colored jackets, but that's even more specific than I remember it.  They just appeared to be--for instance, they were not in Army uniforms, and they didn't have anything that--the middle man, the man with the mustache had something behind him.  It was either a collar that was standing up, or was like a hooded sweat shirt, sweat shirt type thing where the hood is bunched, but that's the best of my recollection.
Q  And you lost consciousness as you were falling?
A  Well, I assume so only because it's the last thing that I remember.
Q  Okay, when you regained consciousness, where were you?
A  I was in the end of the hallway.
Q  Now, precisely where with respect to the stairs?
A  Well, I'm not being facetious--I really can't--I can't precisely.  I would say my knees were probably over the stairs with my head down the hallway towards the master bedroom, so I would have been two or three feet down the hallway, with my knees still over the hallway and my legs in the living room.
Q  But this is not the position that you would have fallen into as you were falling, is it?  Could you have, in your opinion?
A  With a little shove or during the struggle, it's possible.  I might have moved a little bit forward after I hit the floor or something, but--yes, it is in--within a foot or two of where I would have fallen if I was falling off the end of the couch.
Q  But you would have had to have some impetus to push you to the right into the hallway, wouldn't you?
A  Yes.
Q  What body position were you in when you awoke?
A  Well, I basically was face down, but I was kind of laying on my right arm with my arms across my abdomen because they were still bound up in my pajama top.
Q  Were you lying on your hands?
A  Lying on my hands?
Q  Yes.
A  It was a combination of my right arm and my hands, yes, because I was a little bit on my side.
Q  Now during the period before you lost consciousness, and after you heard the first things from your wife and from Kimberly, did you hear any other noises from the other end of the house?
A  No, after--during the struggle, I don't remember hearing anything from then on, but I was involved in the struggle and I don't know if people was still screaming or anything.  I heard the girl during this time, but that's not what you asked me.
Q  That's correct.  Now this girl, since we've brought that up, was saying, “Acid is groovy,” and “Kill the pigs”?
A  Yes.
Q  And you also remember her saying something about acid and rain?
A  Right.  That's not a direct quote.  “Kill the pigs” and “Acid is groovy” is.  I think it was something like acid and rain.
Q  What was the first thing that you were aware of as you awoke?
A  My teeth were chattering.  They were knocking together so you could hear it.
Q  Was it cold in the hall?
A  I didn't know.  I don't--it shouldn't have been.  I felt cold.
Q  What sort of heating system did you have in the house?
A  Radiators.  I think they were hot water.
Q  Were they easy to regulate or difficult?
A  Difficult.
Q  And was the temperature in the house usually hot or cold when they were running?
A  It was usually hot.  We had to shut most of them off and the house was still warm.
Q  Now you come to and your teeth were chattering and you remember thinking something about shock.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  What did you do first?
A  I got up and moved towards the master bedroom.
Q  And as you got up did you have to climb up the stairs or do you remember anything of that?
A  I don't remember.
Q  When you woke up and got up, were your arms--how did your arms feel?
A  I don't--I don't have any recollection.  All I remember they were bound up in the pajama top.  I had--well, I had--
Q  Then as I understand it, you went to the master bedroom.  Is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  Now, are you fairly clear about where you went first?
A  First?
Q  Yes.
A  Yes.
Q  What did you do as you got to the master bedroom?
A  Well, it was a combination of things.  I was trying to get my hands out of this cloth, and I looked at my wife.
Q  Did you turn the light on?
A  I don't specifically remember it.  I think I did because I could see her extremely well.
Q  But you don't remember?
A  No.
Q  What did you do with the pajama top?
A  I dropped it.
Q  Where?
A  I don't remember.
Q  What did you do once you dropped that pajama top?
A  Pulled the knife out of my wife's chest.
Q  How did you do that?  Did you crouch or kneel?
A  I don't remember.  I probably kneeled down next to her.
Q  Which hand did you pull it out with?
A  I don't remember.  Logically it would be with the left.
Q  Why logically the left?
A  Well, I was on her left side and right hand would have been at her head and my left hand would have been by her chest, but I don't remember that.  I can't say that I did that.
Q  And what did you do with the knife?
A  I threw it away.
Q  Why did you pull the knife out?
A  Well, I was going to give her artificial respiration.
Q  What's the medical effect of removing a knife when it was stuck in her chest?
A  Well, if it's--you have to compress the chest to give artificial respiration and the knife was in the way.
Q  But what happens if you pull a knife out of the chest?  Is that the normal procedure?
A  It is not recommended or dis-recommended, if there is such a word.  It has no effect that I know of.  I would normally take a knife out of a wounded person.
Q  And then you gave your wife mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A  Correct.
Q  How long did you do that?
A  It must have been only a few seconds, because the air was immediately bubbling out of her chest.
Q  Could you see her chest?
A  Yes.
Q  What was the condition of her chest?
A  Very bloody.
Q  Could you see any wounds in her chest?
A  Multiple wounds.
Q  Did it seem reasonable to expect that you were going to get bubbles from the chest when you applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A  Nothing seemed reasonable.
Q  Why not?
A  I thought it was rather unusual circumstances.
Q  Did you do anything else with respect to your wife at that time?
A  I probably straightened her out a little bit.  She was leaning against the green chair.  In other words, before I would have attempted resuscitation, I probably shifted her a little and then leaning forward and was breathing into her mouth.  Her right shoulder would have been against the green chair.
Q  Did you take any other medical procedures?
A  I don't remember.  I don't think so.  I could have checked her pulses.
Q  Once you determined that you were not being successful with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, that you should stop, what did you do?
A  I believe at this time that I covered her with my--her chest--with my pajama top.
Q  And where was your pajama top?
A  I don't know.  I just looked around and picked it up and put it on her chest.
Q  Did you have to walk around or get out of your position to pick it up?
A  I don't think I really had to walk around.  I think I only remember looking around for something to cover her, and do what I could as far as first aid measures for shock.
Q  Did you cover her with anything else besides your pajama top?
A  I remember trying to cover her and I don't specifically remember what I covered her with.
I remember the pajama top, and I remember I was thinking, gee, I gotta get a blanket; I gotta cover her, elevate her legs and start an IV.  But I don't have a real recollection of picking up anything else and putting it on her.
Q  Now I am going to show you Government Exhibit G-76, page 3, last paragraph.  This is one of the interviews with Mr. Caverly.  Notice the last sentence on this page.  Would you read it, please?

MR. SEGAL:  No, no, I object to that, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I'm not asking him to read it aloud.  I want him to read it to himself.

A  Yes, I've read it.
Q  Does that refresh your memory as to what you covered your wife with?
A  No, sir.
Q  It says in this statement, does it not, that you covered your wife with a towel?
A  Yes, it does.
Q  But you remember now that you did not cover her with a towel, do you?
A  Well, if I may explain to the investigating officer to clarify that.
Q  I'd like you to answer the question.  Do you remember now that you did not cover her with a towel?
A  I never remembered covering her with a towel.
Q  In other words, that's a misrepresentation?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Just a second, Mr. Segal.  The witness is entitled to explain his answer, Captain Somers, and he's indicated that he'd like to explain it, so therefore, you've asked the question and he's given you the answer.  Now he is entitled to explain it.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, I think I am entitled to lead him in getting answers that are relevant.  If he wishes now to answer and explain, I think the redirect would be the proper time for that.

COL ROCK:  In the--we're hoping to try to expedite this.  I think we would like to have the explanation from the witness.  He is best qualified to explain it.  Proceed.

WITNESS:  Sir, when I was being questioned on this matter, which was--and I really mean this--it was very cursory, as I remember it in the hospital.  I never said that.  What happened was he said did you cover your wife with anything, and I said yes, I did, and he said, what, and I said I was looking for things, and at least my pajama top; and he said, could you have covered her with a towel, or words--that is not a direct quote--but this is the type of questioning--and I said I don't know, and he said, well could you have, and I said sure, it's possible.  And I never said to any person, to the best of my knowledge, that I covered my wife with a towel.  I could have and I still maintain I could have.

COL ROCK:  Proceed, counselor.

Q  Do you remember doing anything else to cover your wife?
A  Other than looking for something and covering her?
Q  Other than the pajama top and towel we've discussed that you may have used?
A  No.
Q  Did you--now, Captain MacDonald, I am going to show you Government Exhibit 101, which is one of the two statements taken on April 6th.  I want you to look at the answer you gave to the 4th question on the page and read it to yourself.

COL ROCK:  Which page is that, counselor?

CPT SOMERS:  That's page 7.

Q  Does that refresh your memory as to anything you did with respect to covering your wife?
A  Not any further than I have just stated.
Q  You say in this statement, do you not, that you remember covering her up with things?
A  Yes, that's just what I've said here.
Q  And you still remember more than one thing?
A  I specifically remember picking up my pajama top, shaking it, you know sort of opening it so it was like a towel, and laying it on her.  I remember I was looking for something and I was pulling at the clothes that was piled in the chair across Colette, but I don't remember specifically picking up something and laying it across her.  I know I was looking for something--I was trying to cover her--it is perfectly conceivable, that I did cover her with that towel or with something else, but I don't remember it.
Q  What did you do, once you had covered your wife?
A  I went to the--Kimberly's bedroom.
Q  And where did you go in Kimberly's bedroom?
A  I went up next to her bed on the left side of her bed, facing the bed from the foot, the left side.
Q  Did you do anything medically while you were there?
A  I'm not sure at that time.  I must have done something.  Now I don't know if I just took a pulse or tried mouth-to-mouth the first time with Kimberly.
Q  Did you form any conclusions while you were in that bedroom then?
A  Yes.
Q  And what were those conclusions?
A  That she was very bloody.
Q  Any other conclusions?
A  Well, not that I admitted to myself.  I mean it was obvious, but I didn't say to myself, well, I guess Kimberly's dead.
Q  But that was obvious?
A  It was a distinct possibility, yes.
Q  Did you go any closer than the foot of the bed?
A  Yes.
Q  Where?
A  On the left side of the bed.  Facing the foot of the bed it would be the left side, between the bed and the front window of the house.
Q  But you don't specifically remember doing anything?
A  No. I was in there at least twice during the next several minutes, and on one or two of these visits I did things, and I don't know if it was the first trip or not.
Q  On one of those visits you did give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you do anything else in that bedroom?
A  Checked the pulses.
Q  Was this again--you don't remember which time?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Once you had finished that time in that bedroom, what did you do?
A  I went to Kristy's bedroom.
Q  And what did you do there?  Well, first of all--let me withdraw that--where in the bedroom did you go?
A  Up next to the bed.
Q  And how close to the bed?
A  Close, right to the bed.  I might have been touching the bed.
Q  And what did you do?
A  I gave her; I think, on the first trip to Kristy's room, mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, it would be appropriate for the government at this time to recess for perhaps ten minutes, if that's acceptable to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK:  We will recess for the normal lunch break.

(The hearing recessed at 1135 hours, 16 August 1970

(The hearing reopened at 1302 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that all parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Captain MacDonald, when we left off this morning we were talking about your being in Kristy's room, and my next question, then, is what medical steps did you take in Kris's room?
A  The first time?
Q  The first time.
A  I believe mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
Q  Would you describe how did you did that, please?
A  I don't distinctly remember.  I think that I put my hand under the back--back of her head and her neck, and probably would have breathed into her mouth and nose which is the technique with children.
Q  In what position was she lying when you first approached her?
A  You mean on her back or her front?
Q  That's correct.
A  She was lying on her back.
Q  In what--how was she facing?
A  I--I think she was just sort of facing up, towards the ceiling.
Q  In other words flat on her back?
A  Right.
Q  And when you had finished giving her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, what did you do then?
A  I left the bedroom.
Q  And did you take any pulses while you were in there?
A  I don't really know.  I think so.
Q  Would that have been before or after you gave her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A  Probably before.
Q  And then you left Kris's room?
A  Correct.
Q  Where did you go when you left Kris's room?
A  I stool in the hallway for a minute.
Q  You stood in the hallway? What were you doing in the hallway?
A  Trying to figure out what had happened.
Q  Where in the hallway were you standing?
A  I think right outside of Kristy's room, between the two bedrooms.
Q  What did you decide you would do then?
A  Well, there's some confusion here.  I don't know if I decided to look in the bathroom at this time, but I think this was when I felt my head.
Q  And you think this was when you went to the bathroom then?
A  Yes.
Q  Anything unusual about the bathroom?
A  Did I notice anything unusual?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  Now the light in the bathroom was on.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  What did you do first when you got in the bathroom?
A  I looked in the mirror.
Q  What were you looking for?
A  To see what my head wounds looked like.
Q  What did they look like?
A  I saw some blood was smeared on my forehead, and the only thing I noticed initially was a large--oh, it's not large, but it was a lump and a contusion on my left forehead.
Q  Is this the point at which you assessed your own condition?
A  Partially.
Q  What was the assessment?
A  Well, the reason I was looking at my head was to see if I had a, you know, a gaping scalp wound or a depressed skull fracture, obvious depression or something, and I didn't see anything.  I was--just noted it.
Q  What else did you note at that time?
A  Nothing specific.
Q  Did you check any other injuries?
A  Yes, but I don't know if it was standing in the bathroom.
Q  If it wasn't standing in the bathroom, where were you when you did that?
A  Either in the hallway before I went into the bathroom, in the bathroom or as I was coming out of the bathroom.
Q  Well, you don't remember which or where?
A  I think I looked down at my chest as I was standing outside of Kris's room, at one point, but--
Q  How was the light there in the hall?
A  Well, right there it would be fairly good.
Q  What were you wearing at that point?
A  My pajama bottoms.
Q  Anything else?
A  No.
Q  Did you do anything else in the bathroom?
A  Washed my hands.
Q  Did you use soap?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Did you dry them?
A  I believe I dried them with something, tissue or a towel or something, but I--I remember reaching for something--patting my hands.
Q  You don't remember what it was you reached for?
A  I believe it was tissues, but I cannot say with 100% certainty.
Q  Now since you didn't notice anything unusual about the bathroom when you first went in it, I guess you did not notice that there was any blood or any other debris in the bathroom when you went in there?
A  I was not aware of any.
Q  Where did you go from the bathroom?
A  I believe back to the master bedroom.
Q  What did you do in the master bedroom when you went in there?
A  I at least looked at Colette.
Q  Now precisely what do you mean by you looked at Colette?  Did you do something medically, for instance?
A  I don't think so.  I'm not sure, but I think I went directly to the phone.
Q  Had you at that point decided to make a phone call?
A  Yes.
Q  What did you do when you went to the phone?
A  I picked up the phone and dialed O.
Q  And did you get an operator?
A  Yes.
Q  What did you tell the operator?
A  I don't know the exact words.  I gave her my name and I told her we needed police and ambulances and medics and doctors and MPs.
Q  Did you tell her why?
A  I told her that people were dying.
Q  What was her response?
A  She asked me my address.
Q  Yes, and once you'd given that--did you give that?
A  Yes.
Q  Once you had given it, what did you do?
A  She said, “Is it on post or off post?”
Q  And what did you do then?
A  Well, I remember that I thought I was swearing at her, or yelling at her or something.
Q  Did you tell her whether it was on post or off post?
A  Yes, she repeated it, and I told her it was on post.
Q  What was her response?
A  She said, “Well, then it's an MP matter.”
Q  And what did you do?
A  I dropped the phone.
Q  Why did you drop the phone?
A  I don't know.  I was confused and I didn't see why she was being so difficult, and it was very obvious to me that I needed help.
Q  Well, if it was so obvious that you needed help, why did you discard the first communication you had with someone about help?
A  Well, I had transmitted the need for help to her, and she was rejecting it, and I was confused.
Q  Did she refuse to help you?

MR. SEGAL:  I think the witness has not completed his answer.

A  And when she said this, I--throughout this time, of course, I was very confused and I also had a lot of pain, and thought that I was injured and nothing was making any sense, and when she said it's an MP matter, I couldn't figure out what to do.
Q  Did you feel any sense of urgency about it?
A  Certainly.
Q  Well, what did you do after you discarded the phone?
A  I checked Colette again, I think.
Q  And what do you mean by you checked her?
A  I went back to her at sometime during these proceedings and I think it was now.  If I had to be pinned down, I would say it was after making the first phone call, and I looked at her and I checked for pulses and I pulled the pajama top down, because I didn't believe what I had seen.
Q  Were there any pulses?
A  No.
Q  Do--did you do anything medically about that?
A  No.
Q  Once you had ascertained the extent of the injury and the fact that there were no pulses, what else did you do?
A  I went to see Kimmie again.
Q  You did nothing else in the master bedroom at that time?
A  Perhaps I breathed in her mouth once or something, but I don't think so, no.  I think I just left.
Q  What about the back door?  What was its position?
A  Well, it was either--what was its position?
Q  Yes.  Open or closed?
A  Well, I noticed it was open.
Q  Did you do anything about that?
A  I just walked up to it.
Q  When did you do that?
A  I don't specially remember.
Q  When do you think this was?
A  Either just before or just after the phone call.
Q  What did you do when you went to the door?
A  I just looked.
Q  But you didn't cry out for help?
A  No.
Q  Did it occur to you to cry out for help?
A  No.
Q  Why not?
A  Well, it was very quiet.  It was in the middle of the night and I didn't hear or see anything, and I didn't think of yelling out.  I didn't see much it would do.
Q  So then you went to Kimmie's room again?
A  Yes.
Q  Now what did you do in Kimmie's room this time?
A  Checked her pulses.
Q  Which ones?
A  Well, I am not a hundred percent sure, but I think the femoral pulse and the--probably the carotid and the wrist.
Q  Did you do anything medically besides that?
A  Yes, I think at this time I tried to give mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q  How successful was that?
A  Imminently unsuccessful.
Q  And why?
A  Because the air was coming out her chest.
Q  Now Captain MacDonald, you've heard the description of Kimmie's injuries.  She didn't have any chest injuries.  How come the air was coming out of her chest?
A  Well, the upper chest area, what appeared to be the junction of her neck and chest.
Q  Did you give her mouth-to-mouth respiration before or after you checked her pulses?
A  I don't remember.
Q  What position was she in when you left her?
A  I don't remember specifically.
Q  How about the bed clothes?  Did you have to move them?
A  Well, do you want a hundred percent recollection?
Q  I want the best you can do.
A  Well, I probably did have to move them to feel the femoral pulse.
Q  And how did you leave them?  Do you remember?
A  No, I probably just--probably--this is--it's really a guess.  I probably just pulled them down, felt the femoral pulse, pulled them back up and gave her mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q  Did you move her head?
A  Probably a small bit to give her mouth-to-mouth.
Q  In which way was she facing when you left?
A  I don't remember.  I think--I just--my impression would be that she was just lying in bed sort of face up.
Q  Face up?
A  Well, that's a recollection.
Q  And, now as I recall, she was lying on her side when she was found.  Did you put her on her side?
A  No, sir.
Q  That's not the position you left her in?
A  I don't remember her being on her side, no.
Q  Could she have been?
A  If you mean was she tilted slightly one way, that perfectly possible, yes.  If she was completely on one side, no.
Q  What did you do when you left Kimmie's room?
A  I went to Kristy's room.
Q  And what did you do there?
A  I think I just felt for her pulses.  I don't think I gave her mouth-to-mouth respiration the second time.
Q  Did you find any pulse?
A  No.
Q  Did you find any pulse on any of the girls, your wife or the girls?
A  No.
Q  Did you do anything medically about that?
A  No.
Q  You didn't try closed heart--closed heart massage or anything of that nature?
A  A person has to be able to expand the lungs for that to work.
Q  So you didn't do it?
A  Right.
Q  What position was Kristy in when you left her?
A  I think also she was laying on her back.
Q  And you know that she was not found on her back?
A  Well, no, I don't know that.
Q  Well, have you seen the pictures in this case?
A  No, sir.
Q  They show her not on her back.  I don't particularly want to show them to you, unless you prefer it, but they show her not on her back.  But you feel sure that you left her that way?
A  Well, I didn't--I didn't mean flat on her back.  I just--I have the impression that as I left her, she was more facing up than she was rolled over on her stomach, yes.  In other words, her back was not up.
Q  Did you, at any time, roll her over to assess the extent of her injuries or--
A  No, I just picked up her neck and head to breathe into her mouth.
Q  And you have no idea why the girls were found in the positions they were found in; if those positions are different from the way you left them?

MR. SEGAL:  Excuse me.  I really must object because we're talking about something that Captain MacDonald has not seen in the sense that Captain Somers is characterizing positions and I'm not at all sure it's really at variance with what he said.  It may be that if the government persists in this area, we'll have to consider looking at the pictures.  I don't desire that procedure, but the characterization of the question suggested, we'll have to do that.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, let me see those.

(CPT Somers handed some photos to Colonel Rock.)

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, this particular area here, this witness has answered the questions two to three times as to how he left this particular child and the position she was found in at a later time is something properly for argument, but not for questioning, because this witness has answered the question to the best of his knowledge, and that's it.
    Now as far as what purpose would be gained by showing him these pictures, I can't see.
He was not there, according to his testimony, at the time the photographs were taken, so unless you can show some reason to--for the necessity of displaying these before him, I don't think it's a proper avenue.

CPT SOMERS:  I would like to know if that's the position he left the girls in and there's only one way, as the defense counsel points out, to be sure, and that's to show him the pictures.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, I suggest, sir, that his verbal descriptions seem rather adequate, and he's explained what he means by the terms as far as I can gather, it seems to be reasonably clear.  I don't know how much more explicit as the body position would need to be, how it would advance the inquiry in this case is not entirely clear to me, as opposed to the emotional impact is connected--this may impede in going forward.

CPT SOMERS:  It's not clear to me, the positions that he's describing.

COL ROCK:  Captain MacDonald, let me ask you this.  Could you by either placing yourself on the floor, or placing someone else on the floor in the approximate position that you remember seeing each of the girls?  Do you think you can do that?

WITNESS:  Well, if you'll let me just expound.  Maybe I can just do it verbally.

COL ROCK:  Please do.

WITNESS:  I don't--I couldn't do that example, because I don't--all I remember is that it was not face down.  I don't specifically remember even if one of them was more to one side, left or right, even.  All I remember is as I tried mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and checked pulses, that I left them more facing upright than down.  I don't think I found them on their stomach, and I didn't turn them over, and I didn't leave them on their stomach.  That's really what I mean.  I can be no more specific even with an example.  If I had a doll here as an example, I couldn't do it.

CPT SOMERS:  That's satisfactory to me, sir.

COL ROCK:  All right, fine, thank you.

Q  From Kimberly's room on the second trip around the bedrooms, where did you go?
A  From Kimberly's room?  I believe to Kristy's room.
Q  And this time you did not do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in Kristy's room?
A  I don't think so, no.
Q  And what did you do with respect to Kris?
A  I believe I just checked her pulses and looked at her.
Q  What did you do when you had finished that?
A  I went outside of the room.
Q  And went where?
A  I think into the bathroom.
Q  Now I am talking about the second time you went into her room.
A  Oh, I'm sorry.  I was in the hallway now coming out of Kristy's room.
Q  And when you got into the hall, what did you do?
A  I went towards the kitchen phone.
Q  Why?
A  I don't have a good reason as to why, I just did it.
Q  All right.  Did you go to the kitchen phone?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you stop anywhere along the way or do anything else?
A  I'm not sure.  I'm not sure.  I--I was at the kitchen sink before or after I used the kitchen phone.
Q  Did you use the kitchen phone?
A  Yes.
Q  What happened when you used the kitchen phone?
A  I picked the phone up and was going to start to dial and I heard voices.
Q  What were these voices saying?
A  I don't distinctly remember.
Q  As I remember, you said these were female voices?
A  Yes, I believe, as I was putting the phone to my ear and getting ready to dial I heard a female voice on the phone, and I think the first thing I heard was, “Is this Captain MacDonald?”
Q  What was your response?
A  Yes, it is.
Q  And did you relate what you wanted?
A  Yes.
Q  And how did you do that?
A  You mean my words?
Q  As best as you can remember.
A  I just remember saying we needed help and I kept repeating my address, and I don't know if it was her or the Sergeant who said, “What kind of help?” and I said, “Police, MPs, medics and ambulances.”  And someone yelled, “Make that ASAP from Womack.”
Q  Once you heard that, what did you do?
A  I dropped the phone.
Q  Now you say you think you cleaned your hands in the kitchen.  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  Where, at the sink?
A  Yes.
Q  With water?
A  Yes.
Q  Were your hands bloody again?
A  I don't distinctly remember looking at them and thinking that.  I just remember running water, I think, on two occasions.  I think that was at the kitchen sink washing my hands.
Q  Now I am going to show you Government Exhibit G-101, page 16, the second question from the bottom and answer.
A  Yes.
Q  Have you read that?
A  Yes.
Q  In this answer you indicated that you don't think you washed your hands in the kitchen.
Do you remember differently now?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  What is it that makes you remember differently? What's been added or subtracted that makes you remember this difference?
A  Well, the first day I went to see a lawyer was April the 7th, and Captain Douthat said the first step would be for me to find out the facts, and he said the easiest way for a witness to remember something is to write it, and he gave me a yellow pad and said spend the next several days writing out every single thing you can remember, and I did that.
Q  What did you do when you had finished in the kitchen?
A  What do I remember doing?
Q  Yes.
A  I don't remember anything.
Q  I show you page 3 of this same exhibit again, and indicating about 11 lines down from the top, the sentence which begins, “So I left--”  read as much as you need to get to the context.
A  Yes.
Q  Have you done so?
A  Yes.
Q  Now I believe this is referring to the kitchen, so you left the phone and you remember going back to look again, but you don't remember that now?
A  No, sir.
Q  You think your memory then or your memory now was more accurate?
A  I think the logical sequence of events is clearer to me now.
Q  Your memory now is more accurate?
A  The sequence would be more accurate, yes.
Q  Well, I am referring to specifically whether you remember leaving the kitchen or not?
A  I just remember ending, really, the phone conversation and I don't really remember walking down the hall or anything towards the bedroom.  I just remember ending the conversation.
Q  Captain MacDonald, during the time that you were assessing the condition of your children and during the viewing of the scene, and you were possessed with a sense of urgency about the situation that you and your family were in, did you at any time attempt to contact your neighbors?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Why?
A  I thought about it one time.
Q  Well, why didn't you do it?
A  Well, I just thought the phone would be faster.  I didn't--I really didn't know my neighbors that well.  I would have to go out of my house and into someone else's house and I felt that the phone was faster.  In other words, my neighbors would still have to make a phone call.
Q  But the first time you tried to make a phone call, you were not successful, in your estimation, were you?
A  Correct.
Q  And you still didn't go try your neighbors?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now doesn't your next door neighbor share the same front porch with you?
A  That's correct.
Q  So that's not too far, is it?  I mean it's fairly close?
A  Correct.
Q  But you didn't go there?
A  No, sir.
Q  And you didn't try to go there?
A  No, sir.
Q  What is the next thing that you remember after being in the kitchen?
A  That I was struggling with an MP.
Q  What do you mean you were struggling with him?
A  Well, he was breathing into my mouth, and I was pushing him away.
Q  Do you remember seeing him come in?
A  No.
Q  Did you tell him you were going into shock?
A  Not that I remember.
Q  And you don't remember requesting him to give you mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you at anytime--well, let me withdraw that.  What did you say to this man, if anything?
A  The initial MP?
Q  That right.
A  Nothing specifically.
Q  Were you asked any questions during the period, while this MP was attempting to give you mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A  Yes.
Q  What sort of questions were you asked?
A  What happened?  Who did it?  Could you recognize them?  Ah--who are you?  You know, what the hell is going on in here?  Things along that line.
Q  Were you asked anything about your children, or did you say anything about your children?
A  Yes, I believe I told them to check my children.
Q  Did you tell them anything about the condition of your children?
A  Not that I remember.
Q  Did you tell them why you wanted them to check them?
A  No.
Q  You have a foggy memory of being in an ambulance.  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  And you--you remember also being taken out of the house on a stretcher?
A  No.
Q  Do you remember anything about being on that stretcher?
A  I remember falling off it at one time.
Q  Do you remember being put back on it or getting back on it?
A  Yes--well, in a hazy fashion, I do.  People were just pulling at me and it seemed like a lot of shouting going on.
Q  And your next clear memory is of a nurse in the hospital asking you your social security number.  Is that right?
A  The next clear memory, yes.
Q  And during the time you were hospitalized you had time to assess your injuries.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  And you described yourself as having four injuries to your head.  Is that correct?
A  No.
Q  How many injuries did you have on your head?
A  Well, two distinct ones in the frontal area, on my forehead and I had a couple of lumps, that could add up to four, but these weren't really distinct, the ones at the left occipital area.
Q  Now, you say you had two on your forehead.  Where were they?
A  Over the left eyebrow and on the right side of the forehead but really merging with the hairline.
Q  And some lump or bumps?
A  Yes.
Q  Above and behind your left ear?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you hear the testimony of Doctor Jacobson here?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you hear him say that he found only the contusion on your forehead?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you hear him say that he had felt your head for neurological symptoms?
A  No.
Q  But you think he's incorrect in his assessment of your head injuries?
A  No.  He didn't say that he felt my head for neurological symptoms.  I think he said he examined my head briefly for bumps.  I'm just being specific.  What you said is not what he said.
Q  Very good, very good, that's perfectly correct.  But he didn't find any other bumps?
A  That's what he said.
Q  And describe the injuries on your body which--
A  Describe them again?
Q  Yes, please.
A  In the right chest area, in the 7th intercostal space, roughly in the mid-clavicular, there was a puncture wound.
Q  Would you point to that please?
A  Yes, it is right here.
Q  Now you are pointing--what?  Two inches above and three or four inches to the right of your belly button, if I may use that term?
A  Well, it would be easier to say it was roughly four inches lateral to the tip of my sternum.
Q  Go ahead.
A  There were several small puncture wounds of the left upper chest.
Q  How many?
A  I really don't specifically remember.  Three or four.
Q  Go ahead.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, what is the purpose of going back through all this again so far as the wounds goes?  He has described them in great detail.

COL ROCK:  Also, I have plenty of testimony from the examining physician as well.

CPT SOMERS:  I want to be sure that I understand fully what injuries he's describing because I have a few questions with respect to them.
Q  Please, go ahead.
A  There were several, what appeared to me to be small, small puncture wounds, on the left of the chest and some scratches.  On the abdominal area, there was sort of a Y-shaped, with the Y down--
Q  You mean the opening--
A  The opening of the Y down, a laceration in the left upper quadrant, about three inches long.  Lateral to the laceration, there were three puncture wounds, and to the right of that laceration there were eight to ten puncture wounds and some minor scratches.
Q  Now several people, doctor, including Doctor Jacobson and one of the medics who attended you, have also described your injuries, as they saw them.  None of them described any of these small puncture wounds on the abdomen, did they?
A  No.
Q  So none of the people who testified here saw what you are describing as small puncture wounds, as far as we know.  When did you first notice them?
A  As I was examining myself either late Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday, looking at my abdomen.  These were closed and they weren't bleeding.  It's not a matter of missing lacerations.
Q  I see.  How about bruises, black and blue marks?  Did you have any of those?
A  Did I have any?
Q  Right.
A  I developed them.  Black and blue areas don't occur until three or four days later.
Q  All right, where were they?
A  They--there was a large one on my upper arm.  There was one, the bruise on my left forehead turned black and blue.  The bruise on my right forehead turned mildly black and blue.
The--I had some small bumps on my left forearm that were slightly black and blue.
Q  How about your pectoral area or your abdominal area?
A  Well, they wouldn't--black and blue is a condition of the breakdown of products of blood, and you wouldn't have black and blue unless there was blood leaking out of a vessel.
Q  But you didn't have any black and blue marks then?
A  No.
Q  In that area, to qualify it for the record.
A  No.
Q  But that is the area that you were receiving this rain of blows in, wasn't it?
A  Yes.
Q  Now I want to turn our attention to a little different matter at this time.  You had two children.  Both of these were delivered by Cesarean, were they not?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And was it the first or the second of the two children that your wife almost died, as we heard Mr. Kassab describe?
A  The second, Kristy.
Q  This, I gather, would have been a fairly frightening experience.
A  Yes, sir, it sure was.
Q  Now when you discovered that Colette was pregnant this time, were you afraid for her safety?
A  No, it would be a difficult delivery, but I wasn't really afraid for her safety.
Q  When did you first discover that she was pregnant?
A  I don't remember the specific time.  It was late October or early November.  It was in November, 1969.
Q  And how did you describe your relationship with your wife during the months prior to this horrible tragedy?
A  How did I describe my relationship with her?
Q  Yes.
A  I believe I described it as that I loved her more than anything in the world.
Q  And that you were very happy during the period that you were in the Army?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have any occasions to go to Texas?
A  Yes.
Q  How often?
A  Once.
Q  When?
A  It was on a weekend in December.
Q  How long did you spend there?
A  We got there Friday afternoon and left Sunday.
Q  What did you go down there for?
A  I was the medical coverage for a jump of Special Forces medics in training.
Q  And where did you stay while you were down there?
A  At a motel.
Q  Did you have any company at that motel?
A  Yes.

MR. SEGAL:  Excuse me.  At this time I would object and ask for an offer of proof and ask the witness to be excluded, as an off the record offer of proof regarding this line of questioning.

CPT BEALE:  The witness will excuse himself temporarily.

(Captain MacDonald left the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  We will take a recess.

(The hearing recessed at 1420 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1429 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, including the witness, Captain MacDonald.  Sir, I remind you again, you are under oath.
    My ruling is that the objection of the counsel for the accused to this line of questioning is overruled.  The counsel for the government will proceed.

Q  On that evening in Texas, did you have female companionship?
A  Which evening?
Q  Did you have companionship with you in the motel in Texas during that stay?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And was that female a woman by the name of Judy DeWitt?
A  That is not the name I knew her by.
Q  Was it member of the Women's Army Corps?  Do you know that?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you have sexual contact with this woman?
A  Well, if you can define the term, I can answer that.
Q  Did you have any type of sexual contact with this woman?
A  Yes.
Q  Has this type of sexual activity ever been repeated during your marriage, before or after, with someone other that your wife?
A  Before or after?
Q  Before or after this time in Texas?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How often?
A  Very, very infrequently.
Q  How often is very infrequently?
A  Well, the only one I distinctly remember is once before in San Antonio in July 1969.
Q  How did these events affect your relationship with your wife?
A  They didn't affect it.
Q  Did you tell her?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I think that completes this line of questioning.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 1500 this afternoon.

(The hearing recessed at 1440 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1504 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties that were present at the beginning of the recess are currently in the hearing room, to include the witness, Captain MacDonald.  Captain MacDonald, I again remind you that you are under oath, sir.  Proceed, counsel for the government.

Q  Captain MacDonald, did you ever have an argument with your wife?  I presume you did.
A  Surely.
Q  Did you have occasion to raise your voice while speaking to her?
A  I don't distinctly remember, but I'm sure it must have happened some time.
Q  Did you ever strike her?
A  No.
Q  Now, in the discipline of your children, how did you normally handle that?
A  Verbally.
Q  Did you have occasion to spank either of them?
A  Not as a serious matter, no.  Playfully, a tap on the rear end.
Q  But not ever as punishment?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to disagree with your wife or have an argument with your wife with respect to Kristen getting in bed with you?
A  No.
Q  As I understand it, she was going to raise this with her instructor in class.  Is that what you said?
A  I don't believe so, no.  I mean she didn't tell me ahead of time, I don't think.  We discussed it--it's such a small point, I don't--I don't remember any specific conversations.
Q  Well, you don't remember then her ever telling you that she was going to bring it up with her instructor in class?
A  I'm not sure.  I knew she was in a child psychology course, and perhaps at one time I said, “Why don't you check with him?”
Q  Did she have occasion to tell you that she had done that?
A  Not specifically, no.
Q  Well, I'm a little confused by that answer?
A  Well, we, I believe, that night when she came back, spoke about the problem, but she didn't say to me that she had brought it up in class.
Q  Well, to what extent did you speak about the problem?  Can you give us a general description?
A  Yes, we barely mentioned it, and she might have said something like, “We were talking about bed-wetting tonight.”  And I said, “Terrific, what did you learn?”  Something like that.
Q  Do you think this would have related to the problem with Kristy?
A  I'm not trying to be facetious.  It's just so unimportant to me.  We never really went into that problem.
Q  Well, I am just trying to discover what you do remember, Captain MacDonald.  Do you think that her remark was related to this problem with Kristy?
A  Conceivably, it could have been, yes.  I didn't--I don't have any remembrance of thinking one way or the other.
Q  And that's the only discussion you would have had about that problem the evening of the 16th?
A  About the bed-wetting problem, coming into your bed?
Q  Yes.
A  No, my wife and I had discussed it.
Q  On the 16th?
A  I think that she just mentioned that she had talked with her professor about children coming to bed, but I'm not even sure of that.  We had talked about her coming in the bed before between us, but I don't specifically remember when.  I just remember it is the type of thing we were discussing.
Q  And this problem never became a bone of contention, so to speak, between you and your wife?
A  Absolutely not.
Q  Did you have an occasion to say anything to your wife when you found Kristen in bed the night of the 16th?
A  No.
Q  About how many people from the 6th, did you counsel--I mean the 6th Special Forces Group, obviously--on drug problems who actually were what you classified as drug abusers?
A  Three or four.
Q  This is the total as best you can remember?
A  Oh, yes, I was only in the 6th for a short period of time.
Q  And this lecture which was given in which the lack of privilege between doctor and patient in the military was in the 6th, was it not?
A  Yes.
Q  Did any of the patients that we've just described ever threaten you?
A  That I took care of from 6th Group?
Q  Right.
A  No, sir.
Q  Did any of them ever give you any reason or occasion to fear for your own safety?
A  No, sir.
Q  How many drug abusers total do you think you treated at Cape Fear Valley Hospital?
A  I don't remember.  I'd have to look back how many nights I worked and multiple that figure by one or two per night.  I would say--I couldn't give you an answer that would make any sense.  It would be a guess.
Q  All right.  I take it then that it's obviously more than one or two?
A  Yes.
Q  Did any of them ever threaten you?
A  Sure.
Q  How many?
A  Multiple occasions.  They always do.
Q  What do--what is it they always threaten you with?
A  Well, not one specific thing, but a common bad drug reaction is acute paranoia, and acute psychotic break with reality where they are fearful of everything, and any movement even disturbs them in a psychotic fashion and they often try to strike back or run away or threaten to kill you if you touch them.
Q  And you are talking about now the effects of the reaction of the drug, or reaction to the drug--I'm sorry?
A  Yes.  Now you can't always tell.  It could be a reaction to the drug.  It could be the person's--part of that can be from the person himself; it's a combination often between the person's psychiatric problem and his drug abuse.
Q  Captain MacDonald, I am giving you now, Exhibit A-36, A-31, A -40 and A-41.  These are, I believe, the composite drawings that you assisted an artist in making.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  As I understand, what you told me in this hearing before, A-36, the picture of the man with the mustache, and the picture of the Negro, which is A-41, I believe, these are the two that you remember best.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  How well do you see without your glasses?  Can you describe it?  First of all, do you know the number in terms of 20-20 system?
A  No, I don't.  It's on my medical records in various forms.  Everywhere it is from 20-70 to 20-200.  I don't really know what it is.
Q  Well, is your vision such that you would normally choose to wear glasses?
A  Certainly.
Q  And as I understand what you said, it was quite dark in the house when these four people appeared in your living room.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  So that your own vision was uncorrected and it was dark, but these are, as I understand it, even in spite of those things, your best estimate of what these people looked like.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, but I should clarify the vision thing a little bit.
Q  Please do.
A  Well, I am nearsighted.  I can see--there are two different types of people who need glasses.  People who can see things far away and need glasses for near, or people who can see near things, but need glasses for far away, which I am.  So, that's just to put it in perspective, but yes, I was not wearing my glasses, and this is my best recollection of how I saw the people that night.
Q  Now, as I understand the technique that was used to make these things, these pictures, you were shown a basic face outline with various variations, or eyes, noses, and mouths, until things seemed to matched fairly well.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  How much time, all total, do you think you spent looking at the faces of these people?
A  Oh, a matter of seconds.
Q  How many?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Less than thirty?
A  Looking at the faces?
Q  Yes.
A  Yeah, I'd say less than thirty.
Q  How long would you estimate the incident with the four people in your living room lasted?
A  Well, I have no really accurate way to estimate it.  I would say it--it was over very quickly.
Q  Less than a minute, you think?
A  I would say that would be a fair estimate.
Q  On the 6th of April when you were interrogated, to use your word, by the Criminal Investigation people, you say that they turned a light in your face.  Is that correct?
A  Well, sort of, yes.
Q  What kind of light was it?
A  I don't distinctly remember.  I think it was a desk lamp with a long bulb.
Q  Are you describing a fluorescent lamp?

MR. SEGAL:  I think the answer was not complete, excuse me.
A  I don't really remember, but I have the impression that it was the long type of a fluorescent desk lamp.
Q  During this period of interrogation were you physically abused in any way?
A  No.
Q  But you understood, as I gathered, in the beginning, that what you were doing was simply clearing up a few discrepancies?
A  Well, that's what I'd been told.  I had no reason to believe otherwise.
Q  Did the manner in which this statement, or both of these statements were taken, affect your ability to tell the truth to them?
A  I don't understand that.
Q  Were the agents using any kind of technique, do you think, which caused you to tell less than the truth, or other than the truth?
A  Well, I don't believe I told other than the truth.
Q  I'm not saying that you did.  I just asked if you felt that these techniques caused you to tell anything other than the truth.
A  I don't want to confuse--

CPT BEALE:  Just a second, Captain MacDonald.  Captain Somers, can't you phrase that a little bit more clearly?  The man has said that in his opinion he told the truth.  What difference does it make--does the techniques have to do with it?

Q  Captain MacDonald, the question of whether anything was missing from your house has been raised, and you've spoken about some rings as possibly being missing from the house.
Isn't it true that you don't know whether these rings are missing from the house or not?
A  That's correct.
Q  And it is true, is it not, that you got your wallet back?
A  Yes.
Q  At this time, Captain MacDonald, I show you Government Exhibit 79 and ask you to look at it.  Have you had an opportunity to look at it to your satisfaction?
A  Yes.
Q  Have you ever seen that before?
A  Conceivably it could have been a piece of wood that we used behind the house.  I don't specifically recognize the single piece of wood. I had wood from the 3d Special Forces Group that I used for many reasons, building fires, cooking things.
Q  Well, you did see, at least briefly, didn't you?  The club that was used on you, did you not?
A  Yes.
Q  Could that be it?
A  It could be.

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  What exhibit is that?

CPT SOMERS:  79.

Q  I show you now Government Exhibit 86.  Have you ever seen that exhibit before?
A  Not specifically.  I'm not saying that's not possible.  It could be.
Q  Could it have come from the lumber that you had?
A  Certainly.
Q  I show you Government Exhibit 84, and except in the hands of investigators or in this hearing, have you ever seen that exhibit before?
A  No, sir.
Q  And I think for the record, that I'll state that that is a paring knife.  Is it not?  Or a similar instrument?
A  It could be.
Q  And do you note that it has a curve blade?
A  Yes.
Q  Could that instrument have come from your kitchen?
A  I don't ever--believe I've ever seen this instrument, so I would say no.
Q  You think not?
A  Right.
Q  Are you absolutely certain?
A  Yes.
Q  I show you Government Exhibit 82 and ask you to look at it.  Except in the hands of investigators or in this hearing, have you ever seen that knife before?
A  No.
Q  Could it have come from your kitchen?
A  No.
Q  And you feel certain about that too.
A  Yes.
Q  Now you--I show you Government Exhibit 83 and ask you to examine it.  Except in the hands of an investigator or in this hearing room, have you ever seen that ice pick before?
A  No, sir.
Q  Could it have come from your house?
A  No.
Q  And you feel certain about that?
A  Yes.
Q  I show you Government Exhibit 73 and I ask you to examine it.  Have you ever seen that white material before?
A  Yes.
Q  What is it?
A  It appears to be a--a bath mat with the name Hilton on it that I think is from our house, or similar to the one that's in the house.
Q  I show you Government Exhibit 82 and 84 once more.  You say you remember pulling a knife out of your wife's chest.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you think it one of those knives?
A  I don't know.
Q  Are you saying you just aren't sure or you don't know?
A  I'm not sure.  It was--I saw a--what appeared to be a brown handle, in the upper part of her chest and I took it out.
Q  How big a knife was it?
A  I have no recollection of that at all.
Q  Let's see if we can describe some bounds.  Was it smaller than a butcher knife?
A  It was in the size range of these knives.
Q  I see.  Do you have any loose lumber in your house--did you, on the night of the 16th?
A  In the house?
Q  In the house.
A  None that I know of.
Q  Is it possible that you did, without you knowing it?
A  Inside the house?
Q  Yes.
A  Certainly, it's possible.
Q  And you kept, I gather, some of this lumber in a storage shed, some of the lumber that you had?
A  Yes, there were several places we kept it.
Q  Where were those places?
A  There was some in the storage shed.  There was some in the crawl way under the house. I had some longer pieces usually, and we also had a lot of wood in the well that we used as kindling for charcoal grilling.
Q  Where is that well?
A  It's been previously described.  It's right behind the house, roughly behind Kristy's bedroom.
Q  Was your storage shed locked that night, do you know?
A  I assume it was.  I don't know for a fact.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, when you refer to lumber, are you indicating that you think this qualifies as lumber, or were you referring to lumber as it comes from a lumber yard?

CPT SOMERS:  In my opinion, sir, for that matter--well, let me rephrase that.  When I refer to lumber I mean any piece of wood larger than a match stick.

COL ROCK:  All right, fine.  And Captain MacDonald, did you understand when he was placing the question?

CPT MacDONALD:  Yes, I just meant pieces of wood, Colonel Rock.

COL ROCK:  Thank you.

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, sir, I ask that these photographs I hand to the investigating officer be marked.

COL ROCK:  Let's show these to the defense before I mark them.

CPT SOMERS:  Let the record reflect that I have shown these two photographs to the defense counsel.

COL ROCK:  Government Exhibit 105, photo of apparent female with long black hair.  G-106, photo of male with small mustache.

Q  Captain MacDonald, I show you a photograph marked G-106 and ask that you examine it closely, please.  Have you had sufficient opportunity to examine it?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you think you've ever seen the human being that it represents before?
A  No, I don't think so.
Q  Very good.  Now I show you the photograph marked G-105 and ask you to examine it closely.  Have you had sufficient opportunity?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you think that you've ever seen the girl that that represents before?
A  No.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, at this time government would like about a ten minute recess to consider just exactly how much more we have to do.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I would most respectfully object.  I do not wish to deny the government proper latitude, which is their functional responsibility.  It just seems to me we are heading to a collision which may prevent the investigating officer and defense counsel of any questions, from being able to complete this examination today, and I would urge the government, if it can in good conscience to try and finish at this time without any further delays.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, we do not want much time.  I can estimate now that we have very little left for the government, that it will not delay this hearing very much.  But we would request a five to ten minute--

COL ROCK:  Well, with that delay, how much more questioning, once we reconvene, do you anticipate?

CPT SOMERS:  I anticipate less than half an hour.

COL ROCK:  Permission granted.

(The hearing recessed at 1555 hours, 16 August 1970.)

The hearing reopened at 1610 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the beginning of the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Captain MacDonald, I again remind you that are under oath.  Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Now Captain MacDonald, as I understand it, during one of your trips to the children's bedrooms to check them, in each case you gave them, both Kim and Kris mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.  Is that correct?
A  Would you repeat the question again?
Q  I'm trying to cover the whole thing.  On one or the other of the trips through the children's bedrooms, you gave the children mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  You never did mention that in fact in your statement of the 6th or to Mr. Caverly, did you? Would you like to examine that?
A  No, I don't.  I was never asked that, I don't remember.
Q  Now as I understand your testimony, when you regained consciousness--this is going to be long.  I better warn you ahead of time.  I'll try to keep it simple--When you regained consciousness, you went first to the master bedroom, then to each of the children's bedrooms, then to the bathroom, probably.  Okay, so far?
A  Right.
Q  From the bathroom you went back to the master bedroom.  During that stay of the master bedroom you checked the back door at some point?
A  Correct.
Q  You went back to each of the children's bedrooms?
A  Right.
Q  And into the kitchen?
A  Right.
Q  Did you spend any amount of time during this period after you had got to your feet on your hands and knees?
A  That's unclear in my own mind.  At one time I was next to Colette on my knees.  I am not sure if I ever really got on them again.  I was having trouble breathing and when I was checking Colette--I don't know which time--it was easier to breathe if I was hunching forward, sort of on my hands and knees, and I don't specifically remember much else about being on my hands and knees.
Q  Then I gather except for in the master bedroom near Colette you don't remember being on your hands and knees?
A  Distinctly, no.
Q  Do you indistinctly?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you indistinctly remember when or where?
A  I don't know if it was when I--I think that I--when I came back the second time into the master bedroom.  In checking Colette I must have been on my hands and knees or something, and I remember just pausing for a second from doing anything else, and just trying to breathe, in which case I was on the floor.  I don't know if I was really on my hands and knees.
Q  Did you have occasion to go to Patchogue or that general vicinity in the late fall of 1969?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to see your brother while you were there?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you at anytime while you were there on that trip visit the Short Stop Bar?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you see your brother there?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you see any of his friends with him?
A  Yes.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir:  I would like at this point to explain that with reference to Government G-106, excuse me, let me start that sentence again.  G-106 is a police photograph of an individual apprehended in Fayetteville matching, to me, a possible description, and it has no other significance.  Government Exhibit G-105, I will identify in detail subsequently in this proceeding.
    Your witness.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Captain MacDonald, you described coming to consciousness while you were partly on the steps and partly in the hallway that led to your master bedroom.  Do you recall that description?
A  Yes.
Q  And you've also described how your feet were, et cetera.  In getting to your feet from that position, did you at anytime come to a hands and knees position?
A  I probably did.
Q  You described the various efforts you made in regard to the struggle that you had on the couch with the various people.  Did you actually ever get off of the couch entirely?  While you were engaged in the struggle, that is?
A  Well, my only recollection would be as a--as I was falling off it, not standing off of it, no.
Q  You described the paranoia that drug users have from a bad reaction or from their own personality problems, but essentially bad drugs.  Can you indicate whether one of the fears in this paranoia state includes the fear of being turned over to law enforcement authorities?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that as completely leading, and it calls for a conclusion.

CPT BEALE:  You objection is overruled.  You may answer, Captain MacDonald.

A  Would you repeat that again?
Q  You described the--one of the reactions you were treating here at civilian hospitals, and on occasion militarily, was a paranoia reaction stemming from the use of drugs or some basic instability in the personality of the individual.  Now what I asked you was whether one of the features of this paranoia of a drug abuser the fear of being turned over to law enforcement authorities?
A  It can be.
Q  Captain MacDonald, you were questioned in regards to what happened when you went to the back door and looked out and saw no one, and some questions of why you did not go to your neighbors.  Were any of your near neighbors persons who either were physicians or otherwise medically trained to treat serious injuries?
A  Not that I knew of.
Q  In regard to the examination made of you by Doctor Jacobson in the hospital, what type of an examination was it?
A  It was an emergency room evaluation.
Q  Is that kind of evaluation different from any other type of evaluation of a doctor trained in Doctor Jacobson's line could perform?
A  Yes, sir, it sure is.
Q  Would you describe the difference between emergency room evaluation and whatever the proper name for a subsequent type of examination?
A  When a person comes in the emergency room, the emergency room is there, you know, for its name--emergency room, supposedly--and when you have an emergency patient come in, your first duty is to check for life threatening situations and act thereon.  If the patient needs admission to the hospital, you admit them.  Those are really the basic reasons for an emergency room.
Q  Now when a doctor makes an examination for head injuries in the emergency room, how would that differ, if it does in anyway, from a subsequent evaluation?
A  Well, I am a little bit confused, but I can clear it up myself, I think.
Q  All right, describe the difference, as you know it to be.
A  Well, the emergency room physician comes down, and sees, supposedly, acutely ill people, and he--he attempts life saving steps, if it's necessary, and he admits them to the hospital if necessary.  The patient then undergoes a complete evaluation by either the same person or another physician.  The emergency room physician is not responsible for a complete history and physical.
Q  Did Doctor Jacobson feel all the portions of your head with his hand in order to make a neurological evaluation on the emergency room basis that he did?
A  Not that I remember.
Q  What did he do basically to determine whether you had any serious head injuries?
A  He leaned over me and he pressed on the large area that was bruised over my left forehead, and he looked in my eyes and he asked me some questions, which is a way of checking mental status.  But I'm not criticizing Doctor Jacobson.  That's what you do in the emergency room.
Q  That wouldn't be a substitute for a subsequent full neurological check to see whether--

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  That is entirely leading.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  You were asked by Government counsel as to whether your ability to order and relate the sequence of events on the night of February 17th was better now than it was on April the 6th, when you were interviewed by the CID.  Do you recall that question?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  And what is your answer to that question?  I want to preface my next question.
A  I can relate the events in a more logical sequence now than I could April the 6th.
Q  Why is that so?
A  I partially answered this before.  April 6th was the first time that I had been questioned about this since I was in the hospital during which time I had been questioned what I considered very cursory.  There was no attempt that I know of, to follow the chain of events ever.
This was the first attempt I ever made.  I had been--had been spending approximately six weeks trying not to remember it, and I wasn't sleeping nights and having nightmares about it and this was the first time I went over it.
Q  And what was the reason that you--strike that.  Are you telling us that you had no occasion at all to try and put the events in their chronological sequence between the time you went to the hospital to April the 6th?  For your own purposes or anyone else's purposes.

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that.  He's still leading.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase your question, Mr. Segal.

Q  Did you have occasion to put the--were you ever asked by anyone between the time you--between the 17th of February to the 6th of April to relate the instances that had taken place in a chronological fashion?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever desire to do so for your own purpose?
A  For my own purpose?
Q  Yes, sir.
A  No, sir.
MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further at this time, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I have a few questions.

COL ROCK:  Yes.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Doctor Jacobson treated you in the emergency room.  Is that correct, doctor?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  Isn't it also true that he remained or treated you subsequently for a period of an hour or two?
A  Well, when you say he was responsible for me, yes, but he wasn't--he wasn't like--he was never in my physical presence.
Q  He was never in your physical presence again after the emergency room?
A  No, he wasn't in my presence for the next hour or two.  He did come in and out.
Q  Now I'm not sure that I understand your answer with respect to Doctor Jacobson's check of your head.  Are you saying that he did not physically feel or examine your whole head at any time?
A  That is correct.
Q  Now you say that you remember the sequence of events of the night of the 16th and the morning of the 17th better now that you've had time to go over it sequentially.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  How about whether or not something happened--we are not talking now about that it happened--but whether it happened or not such as whether you washed your hands in the kitchen?
A  The best way that I can answer that is that some little--what I consider to be little, minor things which has come to me.  I would just remember them all of a sudden, very often, only under close questioning by my counsel after April 7th, and I would have to say yes, I remember more now than I did then.
Q  Now I show you an extract of your statement of the 6th of April in which you said you remembered leaving the kitchen and going back and checking the children.  Do you remember seeing that--that extract?
A  That isn't what I said.
Q  Okay, perhaps you can tell me what it did say.

MR. SEGAL:  No, that's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Show him the statement.

CPT SOMERS:  I'm going to.

Q  I show you page 3 from Exhibit 101 and with reference to the contents of the top paragraph, specifically the sentence, one, two, three, four lines up from the bottom of that paragraph.
A  Yes.  That is not what you said.
Q  Very good.  Would you read that aloud?  That's probably the best thing, so we'll all know what it does say.
A  “So I left the phone and I remember going back to look again, and the next thing I knew an MP was giving me mouth-to-mouth respiration next to my wife.”
Q  So at the time you gave this statement you did remember leaving the kitchen?
A  No.
Q  That's not what it says?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  The witness has answered the question.  Now do you care to explain it, Captain MacDonald?

A  Yes.

CPT SOMERS:  Well, feel free.

A  What I mean--that does not say that I remember walking down the hall from the kitchen. I was at the kitchen and the next thing I knew I was in the bedroom, that I remembered, and, you know, I just assumed that I left the kitchen and walked down the hallway.  That's why I said that.  I didn't say I remembered walking down the hallway.  I don't even remember leaving the kitchen.

COL ROCK:  Could you please explain that once more?

WITNESS:  Sir, I am trying to make a differentiation between what I distinctly remember and anything else, and if someone says to me, do you remember walking out of the kitchen or walking down the hall, no, I do not distinctly remember that from that night.

COL ROCK:  Your statement is, I remember going to look again.  What does that mean to you?

WITNESS:  I really don't know what that means, from that, sir.

COL ROCK:  Okay.

WITNESS:  Now, you know--

COL ROCK:  You are free to express yourself.

WITNESS:  What I was probably trying to say was that I finished the phone call and I was now going back to the bedrooms and check them again, or something along that line, but it doesn't--I don't remember doing that.

Q  Is it possible that you remembered something then that you do not remember now?
A  Yes.

CPT SOMERS:  No further questions.  Excuse me.  I do, I'm sorry; I do have one more question that I'd overlooked.
Q  You say that you were never asked, until the 6th of April, to relate what happened on the evening and morning of the 16th and the 17th chronologically.  Is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  By that I gather you mean that Mr. Caverly did not ask you to do that?
A  Mr. Caverly and I had a two-way discussion.  He was asking me things and I was mainly saying yes and no.
Q  Did he, at some point, ask you to relate the events of the evening?
A  Yes, but I kept crying--I was falling asleep--I was upset, and he would give me some water.  This was not a situation where I sat down and ran through a series of events at all.
It's entirely the wrong implication.
Q  Then you are saying, to you, what he was asking was not a request for a chronological relation of the events?
A  No, he wanted a chronological series of events, but much of his statement is based on my answers to his questions.  For instance, when you got up from the hallway floor, did you go to the master bedroom?  Yeah.  And so he says that Captain MacDonald said that when he got up from the hallway floor he went to the master bedroom.  You see, there's a difference. There was a two-way discussion.

CPT SOMERS:  I understand.  That does complete my examination.
MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further at this time, sir.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed for approximately ten minutes and I would like to see representatives of both counsels in my office before my questioning begins.

(The hearing recessed at 1640 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1657 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Captain MacDonald, I again remind you, you are under oath.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I have two very brief matters I wish to ask, unless you wish me to defer it until you are finished.  It may be overlapping.

COL ROCK:  Proceed.  I trust these will be the last ones.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir, I hope so.

Questions by MR. SEGAL: 
Q  Captain MacDonald, when you were at Hamlet Hospital from 6 a.m. on the 15th until 6 a.m. on the 16th, did you have occasion to treat any wounds during that period of service?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What kind of wounds did you treat?
A  I don't remember specifically.  I was suturing at least one patient.  I think it was an automobile accident, and probably several other minor sutures.
Q  What were you wearing for your vision during the period of time you were working in Hamlet Hospital on that day?
A  My glasses.
Q  Did you ever have occasion when you wore your glasses on hospital duty to have your glasses contaminated with any matter?
A  Absolutely.
Q  What sort of contamination?
A  Dirt, dust, blood, anything.
Q  Could you just clarify the area in regard to the answers you were giving to Mr. Caverly when you indicated the question and answer situation?  Did you ever give any full narrative type answers to a question that he gave?
A  I did give some, yes, but for Colonel Rock's benefit, I'd like just to make a statement to clarify--I know there are some things unsettled in your mind about what I said before.
Q  Well, just answer my question.  Was there some situation, Captain MacDonald, in regards to the procedure whereby you were given--giving answers to Mr. Caverly?
A  That isn't clear.  Your question isn't clear.
Q  All right, let me rephrase it.  Did Mr. Caverly ask you whether certain facts were correct or not?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  How did you answer such questions that were put to you?
A  Sometimes I would say yes or no.  Very often it was, it's impossible, it's conceivable, along that line.
Q  Can you give us a specific example in that regard?
A  Yes, sir, I can.  I noticed in his description of the four assailants, he has, on one of the males, a red hooded sweat shirt.
Q  Do you know how that came about?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  Would you describe it please?
A  He said to me, do you--did you notice anything about the clothing.  This is in regards to the Caucasian males, and I said I remembered they had what I thought were light-colored, lightweight jackets on, and then I said the man with the mustache had, either his collar was up or there was something about his neck, and the only example I could think of--I said it was like when you see a person with a hooded sweat shirt under his jacket.  And he said, do you mean like the red sweat shirts the football players wear, and I said, right.  Now in his description, he said I described a male wearing a red hooded sweat shirt which did not transpire.

MR. SEGAL:  That's all.

COL ROCK:  Captain MacDonald, I'll now ask you a few questions.  Reference the FBI report again, Government Exhibit 76, on page 4.  I hand you herewith, an item I want you to read concerning wearing apparel.  I have it marked there in red.

WITNESS:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  Does that refresh your memory?

WITNESS:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  Now we recognize that page 4 is merely a listing of physical descriptions and does not intend to be verbatim testimony that the Captain may have made at that time.  In your estimation, the information concerning the colors--was that as you remember it at that time?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  This was among the possibilities.  He said, is it possible that these could have been darker or lighter, and that's how I said, yes, it is possible, I thought they were light brown, and I did say they were high boots.

COL ROCK:  We've heard testimony from you, I believe, in one instance where you stated, if I recall correctly, and please correct me, that you threw your pajama jacket off in the master bedroom, and I believe today you have testified that you dropped your pajama jacket.  Try to think very carefully which manner you think best describes how you may have discarded that jacket in the master bedroom.
 
WITNESS:  Well, to the best of my knowledge, both then and now, I was just trying to get it off my hands, and take care of my wife, and I don't distinctly remember anything.  I would assume that I just sort of threw it to one side.  I would have to use that term.

COL ROCK:  Fine.  I just wanted to be sure that I got the correct terminology since there seemed to be some difference in the description.  At any time, did you see Kristy's head hanging off the bed, her head or her body?

WITNESS:  No, sir.
COL ROCK:  Reference a hair brush that has been mentioned in some of the evidence, of which dark wavy female hair with blonde roots was mentioned, do you have any idea whose hair that was on that hair brush?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember what items were on the coffee table that night at the time that you went to bed?

WITNESS:  Probably the flower pot with the flower in it, and some magazines, and probably my glasses.

COL ROCK:  Now--

WITNESS:  I have seen the photograph of the living room, and I know there are some children's things there.  I don't remember that being there.  It probably was, on top of the magazine.  Simply because Kimberly was playing with something that night, and that's probably what it was, and I would have left it.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember if your glasses were on that coffee table, if they were there?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  As a matter of fact, they could even have been on the table behind my head at the end of the couch, but I think more likely they were on the coffee table.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember using your glasses at any time after the struggle with the assailants?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you know how O type blood got on your glasses?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember at any time approaching the coffee table after the assailants had departed?

WITNESS:  No, not distinctly, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember it indistinctly?

WITNESS:  There are a lot of things that were indistinct about that night, sir.

COL ROCK:  I realize that.

WITNESS:  After the first phone call when I was on my way to the second phone call, I didn't know what to do, and I was thinking that the first phone call didn't work and should I call the neighbors, and no, I shouldn't call the neighbors, the phone is faster, and I was really wondering--you know this wasn't a purposeful type of thing that I was doing, as far as circling--

COL ROCK:  Wandering or wondering?

WITNESS:  Well, I was trying to kind of think of--and I was thinking of what to do, and as I was walking towards the kitchen, and I could have been right at that coffee table area, but I don't--I can't distinctly remember standing there, or bending over or doing anything.  So I can't--I'm not gonna try to give you that implication.

COL ROCK:  No, I just want the facts.  That's all.  Do you have any reason to remember if there was blood on your hands when you went to the kitchen?

WITNESS:  Just from what I had been doing, checking the--checking my family, I'm sure there was.

COL ROCK:  You don't specifically remember though, do you?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  You assume it could have been?

WITNESS:  Yes.  In relation to that, when I got to the hospital, I still had blood on my hands, so--

COL ROCK:  Now you testified earlier, that you brought surgical gloves home.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  And I believe you said in a package?

WITNESS:  Well--

COL ROCK:  A box?

WITNESS:  Yes, it was about a half used box of gloves.  Each pair of gloves was still individually packaged inside the box.

COL ROCK:  Do you know how many pairs of gloves was in that container?  Just roughly, not specifically.

WITNESS:  Approximately, I would say about fifteen.

COL ROCK:  Of those fifteen, do you know how many had been in the kitchen, I believe you described as a storage spot, and how many have been in--I think you said the hall closet?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  I don't know where the full box was kept.  All I know is that my wife would shift them around and they were kept somewhere.  There were two open pairs of gloves in the house, out of their containers.

COL ROCK:  Do you know of any reason, Captain MacDonald, why small pieces of rubber surgical gloves were found in sheets from the bed in the master bedroom?

WITNESS:  No, sir.
COL ROCK:  Do you have any reason to remember the last time candles were used in the house?

WITNESS:  No.

COL ROCK:  You don't remember.  When was the last time you recall candles being used?

WITNESS:  Well, we usually, if we had people over for drinks, say after a movie, and we were just talking, having a drink, we would have lit them.  It would have been when someone else was there, not within that prior, at least the prior eight days, because we didn't go out with anyone else that weekend.

COL ROCK:  To your knowledge, did either of the children ever play with lighted candles?

WITNESS:  No, sir, not with lighted candles.

COL ROCK:  During the tragic events of that evening, do you remember crying or sobbing at any time?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  When and where?

WITNESS:  What I remember was crying a lot while I was talking to the MPs.  I don't specifically remember--I know when I was walking around that I was crying.

COL ROCK:  Prior to the time the MPs arrived?

WITNESS:  Yes.  But it wasn't--I don't remember like sobbing or anything, no.  I was when the MPs were there.

COL ROCK:  Was this loud crying?

WITNESS:  You mean when the MPs were there?

COL ROCK:  No, prior to the time MPs arrived.  I'm sorry.  Everything I am talking about is prior to the time that they arrived.

WITNESS:  No, sir, I just remember as I was going into the various bedrooms that I--the tears were running down.  I don't even remember like shaking or sobbing in any way.

COL ROCK:  No sounds, then?

WITNESS:  Right, no sounds.

COL ROCK:  Please describe in more detail how you moved the bed covers from the wet spot in the bed in the master bedroom?

Witness:  I just pushed the covers over towards Colette to expose the wet spot.  The bottom sheet was wet and I just pushed the top sheet and the bed covers next to Colette a little bit.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember pulling the bottom part of the cover out from the bed?

Witness:  No, I didn't do that.

COL ROCK:  You mentioned in earlier testimony that you have an impression someone was wearing gloves.  Were all three males wearing gloves?

Witness:  Sir, I don't know.  I--during this struggle--really I'd like to impress how fast this was.
COL ROCK:  I am impressed by that.

WITNESS:  I grabbed hands at several times, and I had the impression that on both occasions it was gloves, soft, wet, in all honesty, my first recollection was that of a heavier, initial impression of a heavier rubber glove.

COL ROCK:  Did it feel like leather?

WITNESS:  No sir, it felt like the--

COL ROCK:  Cloth?

WITNESS:  No.

COL ROCK:  Fur?

WITNESS:  The gloves?

COL ROCK:  Right.

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Plastic?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  It felt heavier than that?

WITNESS:  Well, I've been questioned about the pieces of surgical glove in the master bedroom, but it felt heavier to me than surgeon's gloves on the hands, the hands that I grabbed that had this sensation.

COL ROCK:  Do you have any impression as to whether or not the Negro was wearing gloves?

WITNESS:  I'm not sure.  As I was--you know--sliding off of his arm onto the club, it isn't clear in my mind.

COL ROCK:  How do you account for the appearance of scratches on your chest, Captain MacDonald?

WITNESS:  Well, from the, I just assumed from the--the struggle.  I don't--I didn't mean to imply that for instance these were nail scratches.  I had some marks of--it wasn't a hand print or anything like that.

COL ROCK:  I believe you testified earlier today or yesterday that you probably used the small bath to wash your teeth.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  I would now like to show you page 10 of Government Exhibit 101, and refer to the next to the last question by Shaw.

WITNESS:  Yes.

COL ROCK:  Do you remember checking the rear door to the utility room as you came out of that bath?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Were you wearing a watch that evening when you went to bed?

WITNESS:  I don't know, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did you have occasion to look at any--did you have any occasion to look at any clocks or watches subsequent to the time of the struggle with your assailants and until the time that the military police arrived?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  During the struggle, did you hear any furniture overturned?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you know why you dropped the phone in the master bedroom when you completed your conversation, rather than place it back on the cradle?

WITNESS:  I don't know if I did that, sir.  I--I just--my recollection is that I--I don't know what I did, but I think I just dropped it.  I may have laid it on the counter.  I couldn't have laid it on the cradle, but I don't know why.  I was stunned by her--by her reaction, and I was--you know--trying to get help and she didn't appear willing to give it, and I didn't know what to do.

COL ROCK:  And you feel fairly confident that you did not place it on the cradle of the phone but that you either left it dangling or on the bureau or someplace other?

WITNESS:  I just have the feeling that I was walking away from the phone.  After she said that, I just dropped it and walked over to Colette.

COL ROCK:  I believe you said earlier something to the effect that when you went to Colette, that you thought you could see her chest.  Was it exposed, that is was the pajama top open?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  The pajama top was open?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you at any time remember attempting to close the pajama top?

WITNESS:  Not specifically.  I could have tried, but I--I don't--I just remember placing my pajama top over her chest.

COL ROCK:  When drug users threatened you while on duty at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, what specific words did they use when they threatened you, if you can remember?

Witness:  Well, I don't want you to get the wrong implication of what I am saying.  This was not a frequent occurrence.

COL ROCK:  I realize that.

Witness:  And usually this is a--a--they are afraid of anything, and they're just threatening anything and everyone who's in their vicinity.

COL ROCK:  Did anyone ever specifically threaten you by specific words?

Witness:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  What were those words, if you can remember?

Witness:  “I'm going to kill you.  I'll get you,” or “You'll be sorry for doing that” or things along that line.

COL ROCK:  Fine.  Thank you.
    Captain MacDonald, did you murder Colette and your children?

WITNESS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.  Does either counsel wish to question the accused?

MR. SEGAL:  We have nothing further, sir.

COL ROCK:  Does counsel for the government wish to have any further questions?

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  This witness is excused.  Captain MacDonald, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with anyone other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed.

MR. SEGAL:  I have one document to put in evidence, if I may, sir.
    Sir, there is a witness that the government noticed us of by the name of First Lieutenant Ronald H. Harrison, who was never called by the government in connection with these proceedings.  He was held, as I understand, for several weeks while these proceedings were going on, and then released and he has gone to Vietnam.  I knew he was under orders, I gather, before these proceedings.  The government held him.  In the absence of his--

COL ROCK:  Held him as a suspect?

MR. SEGAL:  No, no, no, held him as a potential witness, sir.  In that regard, we have a sworn statement by this witness; I'd like to have marked at this time as an accused exhibit.
I have copies that I will hand to the government, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  The government has no objection.

COL ROCK:  This will be entered as Accused Exhibit 43, sworn statement of First Lieutenant Ronald H. Harrison.
    Is there any further business to be brought before the hearing at this time?

MR. SEGAL:  Nothing on behalf of the accused.

CPT SOMERS:  I have nothing further.  I have a minor administrative matter off the record.

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 0830 hours on 25 August 1970.

(The hearing recessed at 1715 hours, 16 August 1970.)


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