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Jeffrey MacDonald's Article 32 investigation hearing: 1970--Volume 1
Telephone operator Carolyn Landen and Lt. Joseph Paulk
(This session was called to order at 0910 hours, 6 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: This Article 32 investigation will come to order. Let the record reflect that the original session of this Article 32 investigation commenced at 1300 hours, 15 May 1970, at the Fort Bragg, North Carolina. In attendance were myself, Colonel Rock, Captain Beale, my legal advisor, Captain Somers, counsel for the government, Captain Douthat, counsel for the accused, and the accused himself.
Let the record also reflect that in attendance today are the same parties with the addition of the accused's retained civilian counsel, namely Mr. Segal, Mr. Eisman and Second Lieutenant Michael J. Malley. For the benefit of the civilian counsel who are now present the record will reflect that a summarized record of the proceedings held on 15 May 1970 has been furnished to the defense. The record will further reflect that the subsequent proceedings will be transcribed verbatim until the conclusion of this hearing by Mrs. Barbara Hodges, who is present.
I wish to inform counsel for both sides that in accordance with paragraph 34 of the Manual for Courts-Martial I intend to conduct this hearing in a manner that is both fair and impartial, to review all the relevant and necessary evidence that either side may care to present, and, based on the evidence as presented, to make a recommendation to the appointing authority as to whether or not the evidence warrants a trial or any other appropriate action.
For the interest of orderly administration of these proceedings counsel for the government will initially present his evidence. During this procedure counsel for the accused will be given full opportunity to cross examine each government witness or to register objections to any and all evidence that they might deem to be not properly before this Article 32 investigating officer.
I wish to at this time inquire as to the credentials of the additional accused's counsel who are present today for the first time. Lt. Malley, are you qualified under the provisions of par-agraph 27b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice?
LT. MALLEY: Yes sir, I am. I've been certified by The Judge Advocate General as qualified under the provision of that paragraph and I am a member of the bar of the state of Texas.
COLONEL ROCK: Thank you. Mr. Segal, what state are you authorized to practice law in?
MR. SEGAL: I am admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, Col. Rock, and I am admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States.
COLONEL ROCK: Are you licensed to practice before the highest court of that state?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, I am.
COLONEL ROCK: Thank you. Mr. Eisman, in what state are you authorized to practice law?
MR. EISMAN: I have been admitted before the bar of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.
COLONEL ROCK: Are you licensed to practice before the highest court of that state?
MR. EISMAN: Yes, I am.
COLONEL ROCK: Thank you. I would like to request that one counsel for the accused speak on behalf of the accused in any questioning of witnesses, or in presenting evidence for the accused. If a deviation from this procedure is required, please address your request to me.
Lastly, I wish to inform counsel for both sides that these hearings are open to the public at the specific request of the accused. Is this correct, Mr. Segal?
MR. SEGAL: That is correct, Col. Rock. We have requested on behalf of Captain MacDonald this morning that these hearings be held in open fashion.
COLONEL ROCK: They will be so held. Then does either counsel have any comment or ques-tions concerning these procedural matters?
CPT SOMERS: None by the government.
MR. SEGAL: Nothing at this time on behalf of the defendant, your honor.
COLONEL ROCK: If not, counsel for the government will proceed.
CPT SOMERS: Sir, if I may I would like at this time to outline briefly what the counsel for the government intends to present in the order in which I intend to present it. To begin with I shall attempt to lay a chronological picture of the events of the morning of the 17th of Feb-ruary 1970. To do so I shall start with a telephone operator from the telephone exchange downtown. I shall then introduce testimony from several of the military police who went to 544 Castle Drive in response to this telephone call or telephone call. I shall introduce then evidence of the identification of the persons who were in the residence and the medical tes-timony as to the pronouncement of death. This will be followed by testimony as to the con-dition, the medical condition of Captain MacDonald, that morning from a doctor, perhaps two doctors, and one of the medics who saw him that morning. I shall follow this with testimony from a medic and a Criminal Investigation Division agent as to the receiving of the bodies in the morgue and the taking of the evidence there. This will be followed by testimony from the pathologist who conducted the autopsies on those bodies. Following this testimony I will in-troduce testimony from the agent of the Criminal Investigation Division who are principally re-sponsible for the investigation of this case. They will testify regarding the preservation of the scene, the taking of the evidence at the scene and certain other matters which are relevant to the residence at 544 Castle Drive. I will follow this with testimony of a neighbor who lives nearby as to possible identification of some of the weapons found on the scene. This will be followed by testimony from another neighbor as to disturbances which did or didn't occur in that vicinity that evening. I will follow up with another neighbor with similar testimony and intend to conclude with the testimony of a Federal Bureau of Investigation agent who took a statement from Doctor MacDonald on the 27th of February. My first witness, sir, is a civilian, the lady from the telephone exchange, who is, as far as I know, not in the building at this moment, but who will be within minutes.
MR. SEGAL: This might be an appropriate juncture, Colonel, to raise two matters based upon the government's outline of the case. I note that the government indicated that regard to the condition of Captain MacDonald; they intend to call one or possibly two doctors. We are apprised that at least of the physicians who the government most certainly intends to call is Doctor Straub, your honor, the radiologist. We are of the opinion, based upon our investiga-tion, sir, that there are several other physicians, one of them--at least one of them--is going away and will no longer be a member of the military service and will not be readily available to this court after possibly the next week or two. It seems to me that, also based upon our in-vestigation, one witness physician that we are certain the government intends to call may not be the person who has the most pertinent information with regard to that question. We would therefore suggest it is appropriate at this time to consider making arrangements at the earliest possible time to take the testimony of the other physician because of these problems I've indicated. Secondly, sir, in regard to the statement by counsel for the government, that it intends to call an FBI agent, I wish to advise the court that as of late last week that agent was not available for interview by counsel for the defense because he stated to counsel for the defense that he has not been given authorization by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington to testify or appear in these proceedings on behalf of either party, and that therefore he led us to believe at that time he was not available to the government. Now if the government intends to call him, I would suggest that it is appropriate that the clearance be obtained at the earliest time, so that he may also be interviewed by the defense prior to the time of his being called. Otherwise it might necessitate a needless delay and I would like to avoid that at all cost, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Would you care to address the business on the doctors?
CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir. The government intends to call Doctor Straub, certainly. It also will probably call a Doctor Jacobson. There are several other physicians who could conceivably be called but the government doesn't feel that are relevant to the case. If the defense wishes to make these witnesses available as its own, the government will be happy to see what it can do to facilitate this. Now insofar as the FBI agent is concerned, if you wish me to address that--
COLONEL ROCK: Please do.
CPT SOMERS: The FBI agent has in fact been made available to testify at these Article 32 proceedings on behalf of the government. I have personally received a phone call--I believe it was Thursday of last week--from the FBI agent, who stated simply that he could not talk to the defense until he had been given clearance by his superiors. I will today contact the US Attorney, Mr. Coolidge, and attempt to acquire for the defense this clearance.
COLONEL ROCK: I think that the answers by the government are satisfactory in both re-spects. In the event you have difficulty in obtaining the support of the agent for the ac-cused, the FBI agent, please inform me at the earliest moment.
CPT SOMERS: I will, sir. If you will excuse me just one moment, I will check on the status of my civilian witness.
COLONEL ROCK: Let us know soonest.
CPT SOMERS: Sir, if I may, I suggest we take a five minute break in place and I will then have this witness.
COLONEL ROCK: We will recess for five minutes.
(The hearing recessed at 0925 hours, 6 July 1970.)
(The hearing opened at 0945 hours, 6 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order.
(Miss Carolyn Landen was called as a witness by the government, was sworn, and testified as follows.)
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Ma'am, would you state your full name?
A Carolyn Landen.
Q Your address?
A 2609 Downs Place, Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Q And what is your occupation, please?
A Group Chief Operator with Carolina Telephone Company.
Q Were you occupied in this position on the evening of 16 and 17 February of this year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have an emergency call that night?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell us when this call came in?
A About 3:40.
Q And how did it come to your attention?
A Well, the operator had answered the signal and she was having difficulty hearing the party.
MR. SEGAL: I am having difficulty hearing you.
COLONEL ROCK: Would you keep your voice up, please.
A Yes, The operator had answered the signal and she could not get the customer to talk, so she called me to help her with the call.
Q At the time that she called you, was this customer on the line?
A I don't know. He was not talking.
Q What happened when you were called? What did you do then?
A Well, I has asked her what happened and the MPs was on the line. So the information she gave me I related the information to the MPs.
Q And what happened next? Did you monitor that line?
A Yes.
Q And did you hear anything else on that line?
A Well, about--a few minutes later, the customer came back to the line and he kept repeat-ing his address.
Q What was that address?
A 544 Castle Drive.
Q And did he say anything else?
A He said what I understood him to say, I don't know for sure if this was right because he said in a faint voice--that he had been stabbed.
Q I see. What did you do when he came back on the line?
A I immediately called the MPs again and gave them this information because he said they were sending a car out, but we weren't too sure what had happened before, and so I called them back and told them the address was correct and what had happened.
Q Did you monitor that line at all after that?
A Yes, I did.
Q What happened then?
A Well, the MPs and I both stayed on the line. I did not hear the customer any more, and we stayed there until the MPs were notified that the call--the car had already got to the ad-dress. Then I released the MPs.
Q I see. Now, how long was it between 3:40, the time that you said the call originally came in, and the time that the customer seemed to be back on the line and you heard him?
A Well, it could not have been over two minutes. It could have been a few seconds later than two minutes, but not over two minutes
Q Your estimate is in the vicinity of two minutes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, can you tell if the line is hung up from the other end?
A Yes.
Q How do you tell this?
A We have lights in our positions showing when he hangs up, what we call disconnects.
Q Did you at anytime, from 3:40 on until you left that day receive a disconnect from that number?
A No, sir.
CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Is it Miss Landen?
A Yes.
Q May I ask the name of the operator who originally called this message to your attention?
A A Mrs. Carolyn Goldman.
Q G-o-l-d-m-a-n?
A That's right.
Q And is Mrs. Goldman still an operator with the Carolina--
A She's on leave from the telephone company.
Q Is she still in the Fayetteville area?
A As far as I know.
Q Do you know what the nature of her leave is?
A She is on maternity leave.
Q Miss Landen, may I ask how you determined that you received this call at 3:40?
A Well, when the operator answers a signal, and it is an emergency call, she connects the customer and immediately she times or stamps a ticket which shows the face on the clock.
It has the minute and the hour hand on it. I was at the position when she stamped it and I seen her when she stamped it. I also looked at the clock myself.
Q Do I understand that the position at which you were working was right next to or close by Mrs. Goldman that you were able to see this, what you are describing now?
A Yes. She was as near to me as this table is here.
Q About six feet away?
A I would say.
Q How is it that you happened to see the time if you were that far away?
A We have clocks all around on the wall, and also each position, there is a clock in the cen-ter.
Q Have you ever had occasion to see the particular card that was punched on that emer-gency call since the morning of 17 February?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember the last time you saw that card?
A Last week.
Q And may I ask where it was that you saw the card and who showed it to you?
A It is in our office, the manager has it in our office.
Q And the name of the manager who had the card at this time--so that we might also have an opportunity to see it?
A Mr. Daniels.
Q Mr. Daniels?
A Yes.
Q And what is Mr. Daniels' first name?
A Dorsey. He's here this morning.
Q How did you have occasion to note the time when you, yourself, finally disconnected this call, or when the call was disconnected from the customer's house?
A No, sir. When I left at seven o'clock the connection was still open. We had not received a disconnect.
Q Then from the time, 3:40 until you went off duty that line remained open?
A Yes.
Q Now when you first had this call brought to your attention by Mrs. Goldman, what did you hear? What did you do?
A I immediately asked her what was wrong, what he had said to her, and she gave me the information which I passed on to the MPs.
Q Did you call the MPs on a separate line?
A No, the MPs were already on the line. She had already dialed the MPs up.
Q In other words, she had two lines open at the same time--one for the customer's calling in and one from the call that she had placed herself to the military police?
A Well, it was on the same connection, yes.
Q Was she trying to patch these two calls together? In other words, was she trying to con-nect the customer directly into--
A Yes.
Q Had she succeeded in doing that?
A Yes.
Q At any time while these two calls were patched together, did the customer have occasion to speak or say anything?
A At the time he came back on the line the second time, he was talking when I got the MPs on the line, but I don't think the MPs could hear what was said because it was in such a faint voice, but I could barely hear myself.
Q When you say the voice was faint, was it because of a poor connection, or some other mechanical difficulty, or was it because the person himself was speaking in a very faint voice?
A It had nothing to do with the connection.
Q In other words, the connection was adequate; the person who was speaking was speaking in a weak or faint voice.
A Yes.
Q Is it fair to characterize the voice in that fashion--either faint or weak?
A Yes, sir.
Q If you, please, speak in the first person, that is the same way as the customer spoke to you, would you repeat the words as if you were the customer, as you were able to make out on the telephone that morning?
A Well, when he came back on the line the second time, the only thing he said then was the address, 544 Castle Drive, and he repeated it several times, and then I asked him what was wrong.
Q And now speak as he spoke to you, please, the words as best as you recall.
A When I asked him what was wrong; he said he had been stabbed.
Q Did he say I or--
A I don't know if he said I or what, the only thing I could hear was “have been stabbed.” I can't say “I” or what.
Q And did he say that more than once?
A No, sir.
Q Was there anything else that he said other than the address and that he had been stabbed that you can recall at this time?
A No, that was all he said, all that I could hear he said, or anything else, I didn't hear.
Q Was there other sounds coming from the phone from the customer's house?
A No, sir.
Q Could you hear anything else at all coming from the customer's phone?
A No, sir.
Q Is it fair to say there was a rather lengthy period of silence after you say you hear the next sound coming from the customer's phone?
A You mean from the time he called the operator and the time I heard him talk?
Q Right.
A Yes, there was silence.
Q About how much time elapsed from the time that Mrs. Goldman answered the call until you got on?
A As soon as she answered the call and connected with the MPs she called me, which could not have been over a minute.
Q And then you say you spoke to the customer and what did you actually do after you spoke to the customer?
A After I spoke to him? Well, I had already dialed the MPs number and when they answered I gave them the information.
Q I'm not sure I understand why you dialed the MPs number. I thought that Mrs. Goldman had also called that number.
A Because the MPs did not think it was very serious, I don't believe, the first time, because he said we will send out a car. You see, the customer had asked for the MPs and an ambu-lance sent to that address.
Q Excuse me. That was the message given Mrs. Goldman?
A Yes.
Q So when you--
A When I called them, the first time I called them to tell them what had happened, the MPs said we will send out a car because he didn't know what was wrong, and he didn't want to send out an ambulance. So when I found out he had been stabbed, or what I thought he said he had been stabbed then I called the MPs back and told them that on the emergency to 544 Castle Drive we think maybe he might have been stabbed, is what we understood him to say. I figured he would probably send an ambulance along too.
Q What was the response of the military policeman as to you spoke to him on the second call?
A He told me then that a car was on its way; we stayed on the line together until the MPs got there.
Q You say “we”. You and Mrs. Goldman?
A No the operator was not on the line anymore after she called me, and I relayed the mes-sage to the MPs the first time. She got busy and went on to another position.
Q Who was on the line with you then?
A The MPs at the MP desk.
Q All right, now how long thereafter did you hear any sound or communication coming from the customer's phone?
A You mean from the time that I took over?
Q Yes.
A Well, it couldn't have been over two minutes from the time that she called me to the time that I heard him speak.
Q Now I am talking about after that. You made a report to the MPs that you think it was a stabbing and you stayed on the line and the military policeman stays on the line. About how much time then elapsed between this until you heard some kind of sound coming from the customer's phone?
A I can't say for sure but I don't think it was over fifteen minutes, whenever he said the MPs are there, and I could hear moving around in the background, so to speak.
Q Who said the MPs are here?
A The Sergeant at the MP desk, the one I was talking to.
Q Speaking to you, said that the MPs are now at the address?
A Yes.
Q And did you in fact hear something coming from the customer's phone to confirm his statement?
A I just heard moving around. I didn't hear anything or what was going on. So I couldn't say for certain that they were there other than what the MP Sergeant was telling me.
Q But you did hear what you gathered as people moving around inside the customer's loca-tion, and prior to the MP telling you that they were at the Castle Street address, you had not heard any sounds.
A That's right.
Q So I assume at that time you then concluded the fact that must be the MPs or a car that he had sent?
A Yes, sir.
Q I gather, Miss Landen, that you feel that there was about fifteen minutes after you had originally gotten involved in the telephone call?
A I remember looking at the clock at one time and it was about five minutes to four then, so it ended very shortly thereafter, then he told me they were there, so it could not have been fifteen minutes I don't believe.
Q It was five minutes of four when you were talking to the military policeman?
A When he said they're there, so I don't think it could have been over fifteen minutes. Of course it seemed longer than that, but I'm not sure about the time either.
Q Miss Landen, at any time did any of the military policemen that you had occasion to speak to that morning on the phone say something about the correctness of the address that had been given to them by the operator or yourself?
A When I called the second time it seemed that they were having a hard time trying to find the address, and he said something about he was not to sure. I said, well, I am sure that's what he said because I heard him myself, the address, and shortly after that was when the MPs were there.
Q May I ask you what caused you to form the impression that they were having a hard time finding 544 Castle Drive.
A I could hear the MP Sergeant saying something to someone there in the room with him, I guess the guy that was on the radio or something. I don't know, but--he didn't say there was no address like that, but from what they were saying, and then he asked me something about was I sure--something about the address. I can't remember all that happened, but I remember saying to him, I am sure that's what he said.
Q Is it fair to say that your impression was that there was some confusion at the MP dis-patch headquarters about where they were supposed to send the vehicle to investigate?
A Well, I don't know if they were confused about--I don't think they were confused about what I said the address was, but maybe they were just having a hard time locating Castle Drive--I don't know.
MR. SEGAL: I have no further questions. Thank you so much.
CPT SOMERS: No further questions.
COLONEL ROCK: I think it might be well for clarity of the record for you to direct questions to the witness relative to why the operator in Fayetteville was called rather than the operator on post, the fact that there are two separate phone systems in that area.
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Do you know, Miss Landen, why someone calling from 544 Castle Drive would get the town operator?
A He has a 497 number and when he dialed 0 they reach the Fayetteville operator. He has a Fayetteville line.
Q In other words, they are on the Fayetteville exchange as opposed to Fort Bragg exchange.
A Right.
CPT SOMERS: Fine. No further questions.
COLONEL ROCK: If there are no further questions by counsel for the government or the ac-cused, the witness is excused.
CPT SOMERS: None by the government.
MR. SEGAL: Nothing further at this time, your honor.
COLONEL ROCK: Thank you.
(The witness departed the hearing room.)
CPT SOMERS: At this time, sir, I regret to say that my next witness is in transit and not here.
COLONEL ROCK: Do you request a recess?
CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: We will recess for five or ten minutes.
(The hearing recessed at 1005 hours, 6 July 1970.)
(The hearing was called to order at 1015 hours, 6 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order.
(1Lt Joseph L. Paulk was called as a witness by the government; was sworn and testified as follows.)
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Would you please state your full name, your grade, organization, station and armed force?
A Joseph Loy Paulk, First Lieutenant, Company C, 503d MP Battalion, Fort Bragg, North Caro-lina.
Q What is your normal duty, Lieutenant?
A My duty title, sir, is platoon leader.
Q And this is an MP unit that you are in?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What were your duties on the evening of the 16th and 17th of February of this year?
A As Military Duty Officer.
Q And where do you perform this duty?
A At the main post Provost Marshal Office, sir.
Q Did you have an occasion on that evening to get an emergency call from the operator?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Would you tell us how this came to your attention?
A I was in the Operations Division of the PMO--
Q Excuse me. When you say the PMO, what do you mean?
A Provost Marshal Office and I was rewriting my Duty Officer's log so it would be more legible the next morning, and my driver, Dickerson, came in and said there was a very unusual call on the line, or something to that effect.
Q What was your response to this?
A Well, I went into the desk, the Military Police Desk, and picked up one of the lines, and Sergeant Boulware, who was the Desk Sergeant, was on the other line, and I said, may I help you, sir. Sergeant Boulware immediately interrupted and said it was not the operator, it was the operator. I obtained the address of the--what I thought to be a domestic disturbance from the operator and proceeded to that address.
Q Okay, how did you travel?
A I traveled in our patrol car.
Q And what route did you take?
A I went down Randolph to Bernstein and took a right on Bernstein, and went straight down Bernstein until I hit--I don't recall the name of the street--Bernstein dead ends into the street. I took a right and went to North Lucas. I took a right on North Lucas and proceeded up until I came to Castle. I took a left on Castle went almost to North Dougherty.
Q Did you have any difficulty finding this address?
A No, sir.
Q Why is that?
A I live about a block away.
Q When you reached that address what did you do?
A I got out of my patrol car, went to the front door and knocked on the front door.
Q Did you get a response?
A No, sir.
Q What did you do then?
A I pounded on the front door, still didn't get any response. Okay, I thought I should see about a search warrant so I went back to the patrol car. I was on my way back to my patrol car and I told some MPs at the front door with me to go around and check out the back. I got about half way to my patrol car and one of them yelled they are around here. I ran around the side of the building and went into the house.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, would you step over here, please?
A Yes, sir.
Q I show you a diagram which I have erected on this tripod, and which will be marked Gov-ernment Exhibit One, and ask you if this scene which is labeled 544 Castle Drive looks correct to you?
COLONEL ROCK: Would you please move the easel so I can see it as well as the defense? Can the defense see it legibly from your location?
MR. SEGAL: Surely, sir. We will move if necessary
Q Does that look accurate to you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay, now point out for me, if you will, on this diagram, where it is that this front door that you knocked on is.
A Here.
Q Now, you say you went around the house. How did you do that?
A Well, I was on my way back to the patrol car, which was parked at the front here on the street, when I heard the MPs at the rear yell--
Q Where was that?
A Down here, sir. I proceeded across and came around this way, and came in the back.
Q Now you indicated a direction beneath this diagram to the right and then up, straight up past this side, and back around the left. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which door did you enter?
A This one right here, sir.
Q You've indicated the upper right hand of the diagram?
A That's correct.
Q All right, where did you first go?
A Into the master bedroom, sir.
Q And what did you see in the master bedroom?
A I saw Mrs. MacDonald and Captain MacDonald.
Q Now you saw Mrs. MacDonald and Captain MacDonald--did you know that that's who it was at the time?
A No.
Q Have you had them identified to you since then?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you saw a man and a woman?
A Right, sir.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And they were lying here.
Q What position was Mrs. MacDonald lying in?
A Right here.
Q Anatomically was she on her back or front?
A She was on her back, sir.
Q Was there anyone else in that room?
A Yes, sir, Captain MacDonald was in the room, and two military policemen.
Q What did you do in that room?
A I glanced at Mrs. MacDonald quickly. I determined that she was beyond help.
Q And you thought in your own mind that she was beyond help?
A Right, sir.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And Mica, MP Mica of Company A, 503d, was assisting Captain MacDonald. He seemed to have that well in hand so I decided to look for other victims. So I turned and went down this hallway, stood in the door of this bedroom.
Q Now you are indicating the middle bedroom on the bottom part of the diagram?
A Right, sir.
Q It would have to be to your left in that hall as you were proceeding down the hall?
A That is correct, sir.
MR. SEGAL: May I recommend for record purposes that we hereafter refer to that as the south bedroom; that the original bedroom that the Lieutenant described as the east bed-room?
CPT SOMERS: Master bedroom.
MR. SEGAL: It would be better to be stated in those terms.
COLONEL ROCK: Actually the rooms are marked, though you can't see it, counsel, as master bedroom, front bedroom and rear bedroom. I think if we use the terms that are on the chart, if you will in the future, according to what is on the chart.
CPT SOMERS: Is that satisfactory?
Q You are referring to having stood in the door of what has been marked as the front bed-room. Is that correct?
A Right, sir.
Q That's fine. What did you see there?
A Well, I saw a child in bed who I determined was what I thought was beyond help also.
Q I see. And what did you do then?
A I backed out of the doorway, took just a step or two and came over here and looked in this bedroom.
Q That is the bedroom marked as the rear bedroom?
A That is correct, sir.
Q What did you see there?
A I saw another child which looked again beyond help, so I backed out of this room and looked down the hall into the living room, dining room and kitchen looking around for other victims, possible victims.
Q I see. Did you find any other victims?
A No, sir.
Q Now did you take any steps, or were any steps taken in your presence to protect or pre-vent changes in the scene?
A Yes, sir. I took steps personally and other MPs on the scene also took steps.
Q Now would you tell us what you did?
MR. SEGAL: May I suggest that the witness be returned to his seat at this time--so he will be easier to be followed?
CPT SOMERS: Do you think you will need to refer to this diagram in talking about what was done?
A Possibly so, sir.
CPT SOMERS: All right, remain where you are then. Speak up, now.
A I told the MPs on the scene at that time in a loud voice not to touch or move anything, just hold still. There were several in the area, and those that were working, mainly referring to MP Mica back here who was helping Captain MacDonald, to continue, and the rest just stand back. Don't touch anything. And I did this a number of times.
Q Did you supervise this?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what did you do to supervise it?
A The military police were kept to a bear minimum in here, in the master bedroom, and in the other bedrooms also. The military police in the living room were kept out of this area down where the sofa and the rug are, and were mainly concentrated around the doorways or in a semi-circle around this way.
Q You are talking about the western-northern part of the living room?
COLONEL ROCK: Western-southern.
Q In a semi-circle from the northern wall down to the door which is in this--this is north in this direction.
COLONEL ROCK: Okay.
Q Now while you were in that house, did you see anything moved by any of the MPs or any-one else in that house?
A The only thing that I saw moved was the telephone.
Q Which telephone?
A In the master bedroom.
Q And did you see anything else moved?
A No.
Q Who moved the telephone?
A MP Tevere.
Q You can return to your seat.
(Witness did as directed.)
Q Do you know why he moved that phone?
A It was to call the desk or Womack Army Hospital.
Q Was he successful in doing this?
A No.
Q And what did he do with the phone--well, what part of it did he move?
A Just the receiver portion.
Q And what did he do with it when he was through with it?
A He placed it back on the hook for a few seconds and then he lifted it and put it back the way--the way it was.
MR. SEGAL: That's objected to. There's no indication where it was before.
Q Did you see the way it was before?
A The way I first saw it, it was hanging down from the dresser.
Q And when you say he put it back the way it was, is that what you were referring to? Did he put it back hanging down?
A Yes.
Q All right, thank you. Did you touch or move anything in that house?
A I only touched one thing and that was the screen door and I touched it with my elbow.
Q Did you see anything else touched or moved in that house? I mean other than the people?
A Nothing except the phone, and of course the people.
Q Now you say you went into the living room and I presume--well, you say you looked around the living room. Is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Did you see any debris, stains, mud or anything in the living room on the floor?
A Yes, I saw a plant lying on the carpet and some magazines.
Q Did you see anything in the nature of footprints or puddles of water or anything of that nature?
A No.
CPT SOMERS: No further questions at this time.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, do you know what time it was that your driver, Mr. Dickerson, called this matter to your attention about the so-called unusual phone call?
A Sir, it was just a little bit before four.
Q When you say just a little--excuse me, go ahead.
A 0355.
Q 355?
A 350 to 355, something like that.
Q I didn't hear the other part--pardon me?
A It was either 350 or 355, sir.
Q Who was the person who would have normally answered the telephone calls coming into MP headquarters at that time of the morning?
A The desk sergeant or the desk clerk, sir.
Q And the desk sergeant was who?
A Sergeant Boulware.
Q And the clerk was who?
A I don't recall at this time.
Q When you came into the room there, however, you did see Sergeant Boulware as the per-son who was actually on the telephone?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And did you pick up an extension of the number that he had, that he was listening to at that time?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Now did Sergeant Boulware indicate to you the nature of the assistance that was being sought from the military police at that time?
A I don't remember his exact words, sir. He indicated that there was sort of a usual call, not a normal call.
Q Not a normal call. Did not Sergeant Boulware tell you at that time that the male caller had asked for an ambulance and for military police?
A Yes, he did, sir.
Q And who was responsible or who would have been responsible for directing an ambulance to go to that scene?
A The military police.
Q Well, in fact, did Sergeant Boulware in your presence issue any order or direction or an ambulance to go to Castle Road address?
A Not that I recall, sir.
Q Do you know who did ultimately send for an ambulance to go to the MacDonald household?
A I requested them at one time.
Q Was that after you had been in the house and gone next door to make a telephone call?
A No, I requested it on our radio, sir.
Q Was that after you made the original telephone call from the house of Mr. Kalin, next door to the MacDonald house?
CPT SOMERS: I object. This is something that is not in evidence.
Q Is it a fact that you made a phone call from the Kalin house?
COLONEL ROCK: Just a minute. You are objecting to the fact that counsel for the accused is stating a fact that has not been entered in the record?
CPT SOMERS: That is correct, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Will counsel please address the remarks so that that can be read into the record, if it is appropriate.
Q Let's back up for a moment. When did you make the radio call asking for an ambulance in terms of not time, but in terms of events after you arrived at the MacDonald house?
A After I had surveyed the area to find out how many ambulances were required, that was when I made the call.
Q By the way you did, at one time, make a phone call, did you not?
A Yes I did.
Q And was that from the house of Warrant Officer Kalin?
A It was, sir.
Q Is Warrant Officer Kalin a person who resides adjoining the MacDonald household?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now when you arrived at this location, where did your vehicle stop?
A In the street, sir. There was no parking place.
Q And what did you do at that time?
A I got out of the vehicle and ran to the front door.
Q What was the weather like?
A Wet.
Q Is it fair to say it was raining?
A Close to it, sprinkling.
Q Something slightly less than rain, but obviously just not moisture on the ground?
A Right, sir.
Q The ground, however, was wet at that time?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And the grass was wet?
A Correct, sir.
Q Did you find yourself later in having acquired wet grass on your shoes or socks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the lower part of your trousers wet, by any chance?
A No, sir.
Q What were you wearing at that time, fatigues or khakis?
A Fatigues.
Q So that the moisture and grass leaves--grass blades were on your boots, I assume?
A Right, sir.
Q Now when you arrived at this place and ran to the front door, were there any other mili-tary police vehicles on the scene?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many were there?
A I don't recall, sir. I believe there were two.
Q And had those vehicles arrived just before you or simultaneously with your arrival?
A Just about simultaneously.
Q Had any of those military police vehicles pulled into the driveway of the MacDonald house?
A No, sir.
Q You went to the front door. Where did the other MPs go?
A They went with me.
Q Did any of them go around to the rear of the house?
A No, sir.
Q Not initially anyway?
A Right, sir.
Q So then when you went to the front door, how many other persons were there beside yourself? At the front door.
A Could you be a little more specific, sir? Do you mean on the stoop, or how many on the sidewalk or--
Q Well, gathered around outside the entrance to the house?
A I'd say about four.
Q Four in addition to yourself?
A Four including myself.
Q Where was your driver at that time?
A I don't recall.
Q You were not including him, however, in the four persons that were at or about the front of the house?
A I just know there were four persons there. I don't know who they were.
Q Do you know who any of them were beside yourself?
A I'm not sure about that.
Q Did you ever identify who were the MPs in those two patrols that you believe were there at the front of the house?
A I know that two of the MPs that were in the area when I was there were MPs Mica and Tevere.
Q How about Sergeant Hagney and Caldwell?
A I don't recall, sir.
Q Did you subsequently see those two Sergeants however later on at the MacDonald?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Now what did you do at the front door?
A I knocked on it first, and then I pounded.
Q And then what?
A I got no response, and then I looked around to see if there was any evidence of--any type of thing that would warrant me forcibly entering.
Q Well, you say looked around, what exactly did you do?
A I looked to see if there was any lights on in the house.
Q Did you get off the front steps and go around the side of the house?
A No, sir.
Q You made a visual observation of the front of the building where you were standing at that point on the steps, trying to awaken someone or arouse them?
A That's correct, sir.
Q After you made the visual observation, which I gather didn't give you any basis for forced entry, what did you do then?
A I went back--I started back to my patrol car.
Q And what did the other MPs do?
A I don't recall.
Q Your mind at that point, I assume, was on going back to your vehicle for the purpose of getting some kind of authority to enter this building?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Is it fair to say that you were going to try to reach the Deputy Staff Commander?
A No, sir. I would have called the Deputy Provost Marshal or the Provost Marshal, one or the other, and let them call the Deputy Staff Commander.
Q At that point you never actually got to your vehicle before something interrupted you?
A That's correct.
Q What was it that interrupted you?
A I had directed, on my way to the vehicle, for someone to go around the rear and see if there was a way of entering.
Q Now before you got to the vehicle did you hear this call from one of the other MPs?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What did he say at that time?
A They're around here.
Q Now what did you understand him to mean by that?
A I didn't know at the time, sir.
Q What did you do in response to that statement?
A I turned around and went around the side of the building.
Q Was anyone running with you or going with you at this point?
A I don't recall.
Q When you got to the rear of the building, what did you see?
A The screen door was open and the heavier door was almost open, and I moved in, went in the door, through the little room back there and into the bedroom, into the master bedroom.
Q All right, now when you came around to the back of the house, and you observed these two doors open, were there any MPs standing outside of the rear of the house where that door was open?
A I don't recall.
Q Is it fair to say that actually the next time you became aware of the presence of any other MPs was when you went inside the house and found several of them assisting Captain MacDonald or being in or about that apartment?
A That's correct.
Q Where is it that you next saw the military policemen that you can recall?
A In the bedroom, in the master bedroom.
Q In the master bedroom you observed MP Mica, I understand?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Was there any other MPs with you at that time that you recall seeing?
A MP Tevere was in there. I don't recall exactly where he was at that time, but he was in there somewhere.
Q He was in the master bedroom?
A Right, sir.
Q The other MPs you have no idea where they were at that particular time, and had no awareness of where they were at that particular time?
A That's correct.
Q Now you described a little while ago that you saw Mrs. MacDonald lying on her back.
Where was she?
A She was in the master bedroom.
Q Was she on the bed?
A No, sir, she was on the floor.
Q On the floor?
A Right, sir.
Q Did you have occasion to take note of how far inside of the room she was, that is with reference to the door that leads to the hallway? How far was her body from that door?
A The only thing I could do would estimate that as I didn't take any accurate measurement.
Q Would you give us you best judgment then in that regard?
A I wound say she was about seven or eight feet.
Q That would be that portion of her foot that was nearest to the doorway?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now what exactly did you observe as you came into that room and first became aware that there were persons in that room? What are the first things that you observed or saw about those people?
A The first thing I noticed was Mrs. MacDonald.
Q And what did you observe about her condition or the way she was arranged on the floor?
A I just noticed that she was in pretty bad shape.
Q And you describe it as in that fashion from the sight of all the blood in or about her person, I assume?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What exactly did you observe Captain MacDonald doing at that time?
A Mica was helping Captain MacDonald at this time.
Q This is unclear to me as to exactly where the Captain was and where Mr. Mica was and what fashion was the help that he rendered?
COLONEL ROCK: Try to be a little a little bit more specific, Lieutenant Paulk. If you see blood or you see wounds and so forth, go ahead and describe it the best you can.
A Yes, sir. The Captain was lying beside his wife and Mica, as I recall was--had his arms around the back of Captain MacDonald, and was attempting to assist him. They were both next to the bed.
MR. SEGAL: May I ask for a leave at this time, Colonel Rock, to make a rough sketch of the room so that we may have Lieutenant Paulk mark it?
COLONEL ROCK: Affirmative. It would be most appropriate. Do we have paper on which we can draw a diagram to make a permanent record?
MR. SEGAL: I think, Colonel Rock, that we have available a whole house diagram.
COLONEL ROCK: You may use that.
MR. SEGAL: On this may we have Lieutenant Paulk perhaps outline the position that he re-calls seeing the persons which may be some assistance.
COLONEL ROCK: The paper being shown is similar to the diagram on Government Exhibit Num-ber One. A copy of this is in the hands of counsel for the defense. Do you have a copy for the counsel for the accused--a copy for the government?
(A copy was furnished Captain Somers.)
Q Lieutenant Paulk, if you would be good enough to look at this diagram and indicate wheth-er or not it appears to be generally similar to the--first of all the large diagram you have ex-amined here this morning, and secondly whether it appears to be similar to the layout of the house at 544 Castle Drive?
A Yes, it does.
Q Now may I ask that you'd be good enough to take first a blue marking pencil, and a red marking pencil rather and if you would try and indicate the figure of Mrs. MacDonald in about the best you can--the position she was lying, and then a blue marking pencil and indicate the position of Captain MacDonald as you recall being assisted by Mr. Mica.
A All right, sir. Mrs. MacDonald was about right here I would say.
Q If you will mark an appropriate stick figure, I think that may help us, indicating a circle for the head, where it was, and the feet and arms.
A I am not sure that I recall the exact angle that she was lying.
Q We except this as an approximation. Do the best you can so that we can have, perhaps, some point of reference as to where Captain MacDonald was, reference to where Mrs. Mac-Donald was, would you be good enough to write your name at the side of this, please, and mark the date July the 6th, 1970?
(The witness did as directed. The diagram was shown to Captain Somers and handed to Colonel Rock.)
COLONEL ROCK: Now the red indicates what?
MR. SEGAL: Mrs. MacDonald.
COLONEL ROCK: And the blue?
MR. SEGAL: Mr. MacDonald.
COLONEL ROCK: This will be entered into evidence as Counsel for the Accused Exhibit Num-ber 4.
Q Now, Lieutenant Paulk, you indicated by that diagram that Captain MacDonald was on the floor within a close distance to his wife. How far apart would you say they actually were?
A They were less than a foot.
Q Less than a foot. And when you observed Mr. Mica helping him, was Mr. Mica helping him come to an upright or sitting position at that time?
A I don't know whether Mica was attempting to help him come up or whether the Captain was trying to come up and Mica was trying to make him lie still.
Q It did appear to you that Captain MacDonald was attempting to come up or be brought up into a sitting or upright position?
A Correct, sir.
Q What did you observe about Captain MacDonald's condition at that time?
A He didn't look – he didn't look well.
Q Was that the conclusion you arrived at because of the blood that you saw coming from a number of wounds.
A I didn't see any of Captain MacDonald's wounds.
Q You didn't see any wounds at all?
A I don't recall seeing any.
Q What is it that caused you to arrive at the conclusion that he didn't look well?
A Well, he was extremely, or seemed to be extremely upset and he was talking and what he was saying, I don't recall his exact words or anything, but he seemed rather, rather upsetting tone of voice.
Q Is it fair to assume that during your period of military service you've had some courses in first aid?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And in some course of that instruction, you had the occasion to be told about shock and visual conditions that constitute shock?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Based upon the observation that you made of Captain MacDonald that morning when you were there, is it fair to say that you had formed the opinion that Captain MacDonald was suf-fering from shock?
CPT SOMERS: I object. I don't think this witness is competent to draw that conclusion, even in the face of his first aid classes.
COLONEL ROCK: Objection overruled on the basis of the fact that there are some general facts that are taught in first aid which do in fact give indication of shock. This witness is not giving expert advice but that of a layman who should as an Army Officer have general know-ledge of those facts.
A Would you please give me the question again?
Q Yes, certainly. Based upon that information you received in military first aid courses, and based upon what you saw about Captain MacDonald's condition, would it be fair to conclude that you thought he had all the symptoms of a person in shock?
A I wouldn't say all, sir, but I would say he had some symptoms of a person in shock.
Q Now let me ask you this--did you also arrive at the conclusion at that time that his speech, as far as you were concerned, was incoherent?
A As far as being able to understand his words, I could understand his words, but knowing what he was talking about was--was where the--where I would say was rather incoherent as far as incomplete sentences and thoughts, so to speak, I would say.
Q Then is it fair to say that you concluded that he was on the verge of becoming incoherent?
A Yes, I thought so.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, did you have occasion to give a witness statement to Criminal In-vestigator George Ellis on February the 18th, 1970 with regards to observations on the night of February 17th?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Now let me show you a document and ask you whether you can identify this as a photo-stat of something that you may have seen before?
A It looks like my statement.
Q It looks like your statement of February 18th, 1970?
Do you want to see it, Mr. Somers?
(CPT Somers shook his head in the negative.)
Q For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, I ask you, please, to look at the top of the second page of this statement and the first four sentences there, and ask whether after reading that statement, it refreshes your recollection in any fashion in regard to your opinion as to what symptoms Captain MacDonald exhibited with regard to shock?
A Would you like for me to read it?
Q Why don't you read it to yourself first and tell me whether it refreshes your recollection?
A Yes, it does.
Q Having looked at the statement, what is your recollection as to the symptoms that Cap-tain MacDonald manifested that morning as far as your understanding of shock?
COLONEL ROCK: May I interject here for a moment? Is it counsel's intention to enter that as evidence?
MR. SEGAL: No, sir, I only offered it to the witness for the purpose of seeing whether read-ing this file, statement, whether his recollection was now contemporaneously refreshed. It is my understanding that Lt. Paulk feels that having read the statement, his recollection is now perhaps altered in some fashion. I wish to ask him in that regard.
COLONEL ROCK: So this court will not actually receive this statement as evidence itself.
Okay.
A You asked about some of the symptoms I saw?
Q No, I think I asked you a few minutes ago whether it was fair to conclude that Captain MacDonald had all the symptoms of shock and your initial answer to me was that you didn't think he had all the symptoms, he had some of them. Is that a fair statement of what you said a few minutes ago?
A Yes.
Q Now bear with me, please. I have now shown you a statement that you gave to Criminal Investigator Ellis on the day after this incident and ask you upon rereading this statement whether it does not refresh your recollection with regard to what your observations were about Captain MacDonald's condition. I believe you also answered yes.
Now my question, again, to you at this point is, is it fair to say that you felt on February 17th that Captain MacDonald was manifesting what you thought were all the symptoms of shock at that time?
A All that I knew, yes, sir, all that I knew. The symptoms--I didn't feel like--I didn't know whether he was in shock or not, but he had the symptoms that I knew of or what I recog-nized as being what I thought was shock, or a person going into shock.
Q Now what did Captain MacDonald say to you, about what subjects was he talking that you were able to understand?
A The main thing that Captain MacDonald asked about was what was the condition of his children.
Q And did he ask you that on one or more occasions?
A Yes, he did.
Q Is it fair to say the several times he kept asking the same question over again, how are the children?
A How are my kids.
Q How are my kids?
A Yes, it would be fair to say that.
Q And what about Mrs. MacDonald? Did he say anything about her at this time?
A The only thing that I remember Captain MacDonald saying about his wife--one of the times when he was up, at least in partial up-right position, he said, oh, Jesus Christ, look at my wife.
Q And did you form the opinion that each time that he looked at his wife it had a further emotional shock on Captain MacDonald?
A I think it did.
Q And is it fair to say that each time Captain MacDonald looked at his wife he--you felt he was becoming less and less coherent?
A Yes.
Q Is it fair to say, Lieutenant Paulk, that Captain MacDonald was expressing more concern about the condition of his wife and his children than he was over his own injuries?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he indicate to either you or the other MPs who were there in the room that they should stop worrying about him, but look after his children?
A I seem to recall something like that, I'm not sure of it though.
Q Now did you ever have occasion to come in contact with Mrs. MacDonald's body, taking her pulse, or having any other physical contact with her body?
A No, sir.
Q You made certain visual observations which caused you to conclude that there was noth-ing to do at that time?
A Correct, sir.
Q Do you know whether, prior to your coming into that master bedroom, Military Policemen, either Mica or Tevere, had an occasion to touch the body for the purpose of examining its condition?
A I don't recall either one touching the body.
Q However, it is fair to say that both of them were in the room before you got there?
A For a few seconds, yes.
Q Now did you observe a wound on Mrs. MacDonald's stomach?
A No.
Q Where did you observe wounds on her?
A I don't ever actually remember seeing a wound, a hole in the body or anything of that na-ture. I remember seeing blood on her face and head.
Q Did you see any portions of her body other than her extremities or legs beneath her knees, or arms below the elbow exposed?
A I am not sure.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, did you have occasion to observe the bed that was in the master bedroom?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what, if anything did you observe about that bed?
A I noticed the writing on the headboard, and I noticed the wet spot just off center on the sheet that was on the bed.
Q Now addressing yourself first to the writing on the headboard, what was it that you ob-served there?
A I observed the word--the word pig--written sideways.
Q When you say sideways, do you mean that the letter P was parallel to the top of the headboard?
A Yes.
Q So that the letter G would have been close where the mattress was and the P would have been at the top of the headboard?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And can you indicate to us roughly how large the letters were you are talking about that formed the word pig?
A They were about six--six to eight inches.
Q Now what about the bed? What was it that you noticed there?
A I noticed the wet spot just off center on the right hand side of the bed facing the bed from the foot, to the right--the right center.
Q You say a wet spot--did it have any coloration to it?
A No, not that I could determine.
Q It did not appear to you to be blood?
A Oh, no.
Q All right, now what is it that you did after you made these observations?
A Well, a lot of these observations--most all of the observations I was thinking, that I was thinking at the time, I took notes on some of the things that I had observed.
Q Then you subsequently, I gather, left the master bedroom and headed out the door, down the hallway, and ultimately ended up in the first bedroom. Is that correct?
A Right, we--all went out of the master bedroom--
Q Yes.
A --Down the hallway, to the left to the front bedroom, I think it says.
Q Now when you came out of the master bedroom now, and you left--
A I didn't enter the front bedroom--
Q When you left the master bedroom, you left Mr. Mica and Mr. Tevere there. Is that right?
A Right.
Q And then you came out into the hallway heading toward the next bedroom as you ob-served. Did you become aware of the presence of other military police personnel or other people being in that building?
A No, there were no military policemen from the master bedroom down towards the living room at that time.
Q Did you observe into the living room as to who was there, or how many people were there?
A Well, there was no one in the living room at that time, at the time I was going down the hallway inspecting the other rooms.
Q How could you be so certain of that?
A Because I was heading in the direction of the living room and I would have know if anyone had passed me by because I didn't enter the children's bedroom as I was in the hallway.
Q Well, I gather you stopped and looked into each of the doorways of the next two bed-rooms.
A That's correct.
Q Looking at the diagram of the house, it does occur to me that persons standing to the left or right of the entrance to that room might not be in your line of view. Am I correct?
A Correct, if you weren't in the living room, if you were in the hallway.
Q So, what I am asking you--so, when you came out of the master bedroom you came to the front bedroom?
A Right.
Q At that point, you didn't observe anyone in your line of view in the living room. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q But you weren't as certain whether at that point there persons in the living room who might have been out of your line of view in either sides of the living room, which would have not been readily visible to you at that junction?
A I was--the way--maybe I can answer you by saying I was able to ascertain that there was no one in there. When I looked in the children's bedrooms I didn't go in. I was sort of half in the hallway and half in the bedroom. I looked in each one of them, very quick glances, and then I moved into the living room, where there was no one, and into the kitchen at this time.
Q May I ask you, how you made your observation of the second two bedrooms, the front bedroom and the rear bedroom? By what fashion were you able to observe what was going on in those rooms?
A I looked in the doorway of each bedroom.
Q What about the lighting conditions?
A The lighting conditions were--there were no lights on in those rooms.
Q Did you have a flashlight or any other instrument by which you were able to see what was actually transpiring in those rooms?
A No.
Q There was no lights on, I gathered from what you are saying, in the front bedroom. Is that correct? You were making your observations by a light in the hallway some place?
A A light in the master bedroom, I believe.
Q And what sort of light, by the way, was there on in the master bedroom? Ceiling light, lamp, or floor lamp, or--
A As I recall, the light was--it was--it was not a shadowed type of light. I don't know where the light was coming from at this time, but I assume since it wasn't a shadowed typed of light, like from a lamp or something, it must have been possibly an overhead light, or some large type of light fixture. I don't know.
Q When you originally came to the house and tried to get through the entrance of the front door, you didn't observe any lights on at that time, did you?
A No, I did not.
Q You were, however, in a position from the front door to have seen any light in the bed-room if one had been on at that time?
A Well, the blinds were closed and I assume if there had been a light on in the bedroom I could have seen the light around the edges of the blinds.
Q What kind of blinds were they--venetian or ordinary?
A Venetian.
Q And at the time you came to the front door you did not observe any light coming from the bedroom and concluded, I assume, that there was no light on at that time, when you came to the front door?
A When I came to the front door, correct.
Q How about the living room? What lights, if any, were on in the living room at that time?
A There was some light in the--in that area, but I don't know where it was coming from, but it was a dim light.
Q Was that light on when you originally came to the house before you were in the other room, and the military police made their entry into the house?
A I don't know.
Q All right, now after you looked at these two rooms, in what you characterize as brief glances, what did you do?
A Well, I started to check out the living room, the dining room and the kitchen.
Q I gather that you went to the living room after you came from the master bedroom, looked in the front and rear bedrooms, that you then went to the living room?
A That's right.
Q Now when you came into the living room, who did you observe there?
A No one.
Q There was no one in the living room at that time?
A Not at that time.
Q Was there anyone in the dining room area or the kitchen area?
A No.
Q Did you make an adjustment in the lights or turn on in any fashion?
A No.
Q Right, now, you were in the living room. What did you do there? Other than to observe that there was no one else there at that point?
A This was a very short period of time. At this particular time I--as I recall, or somewhere around this time, I began taking notes.
Q And you indicated when you were standing in the living room, you think that you may have made some written observations of what you had seen that evening?
A That's correct.
Q After you had made some notes, what did you do then?
A I walked--made the notes for the rooms, but I told the--most of the MPs--I don't know whether it was at this time or not, but I began telling them, don't touch anything, don't move anything. If you are not doing anything, get out. If you want to stay in here, don't move, and just leave everything alone.
Q Well, where were these various MPs that you were giving instructions to, and when did they come into the house?
A I think at that time I was talking to--I don't recall for sure but I, as I remember, there was some military police in the parents' bedroom and in the hallway.
Q How had they come into the building?
A From the rear door.
Q The same door you had come in?
A Right.
Q Well, the last I understood, you were in the bedroom with Tevere and Mica.
A Right.
Q You then left, went and checked the front and rear bedrooms and then proceeded to the living room. Is that right?
A Right.
Q Now what I want to know is how and when did other military police and yourself, Tevere and Mica, come into that house?
A Well, the other military policemen I don't know exactly when they came in. It was not very long, and they came in through the rear door at this particular time, and I don't know how many military policemen there was. I don't think there was a great number; as far as I know, that I can recall right now, the driver came in at that time.
Q That would be Mr. Dickerson?
A Right.
Q Now Dickerson came through which entrance to the building?
A He would have come through the rear entrance. I didn't see him come into the rear en-trance.
Q As a matter of fact, isn't he the person who unlocked the front door of the house to per-mit other personnel to come in?
A As I recall, he was.
Q Now at that time, at that point you had Dickerson in the house, yourself, Mica, and Te-vere, and I wonder if you'd indicate to us who the other military policemen that you recall seeing were who were in the house at that point?
A The only two I recall are Sergeant Hagney and Tevere, other than the ones I have already mentioned.
Q How about Sergeant Caldwell?
A He was there.
Q Did you ever--
A I don't know whether he was in at this time. He was in there.
Q Did you make an inventory list of the names of the military policemen who were inside the house while you were there?
A Not me personally.
Q Well, did someone make it that you were aware of?
A I'm certain that there may be a list or something of all persons in the area, that made up the shift or something. But you see, I don't know for sure. I assume that they have them.
Q At some point did Captain MacDonald give some information to one of the military police-men as to what had transpired in the house that night or that morning?
A Yes, he did.
Q At what point did that happen?
A It was fairly--fairly soon after I checked, checked out the other area and was in the living room taking notes. It was not too long a period of time after that.
Q Were you present when Captain MacDonald gave certain information about what had hap-pened at his house at that time?
A No.
Q Where was he at that time? Was he still in the master bedroom?
A Yes.
Q And was the person who was talking to Captain MacDonald at that time, a military police-man named Mica?
A I don't know, I assume it was.
Q All right, who, in fact, reported to you that Captain MacDonald had given certain informa-tion about four persons?
A Sergeant Tevere.
Q Sergeant Tevere? All right, tell us what happened at that point.
A I don't recall exactly for sure. I remember putting the information on the air, and I don't know exactly when I did it. The information was put on the air at some time and I don't ex-actly remember when that was.
Q The question, however, is can you now indicate to the investigating officer what the na-ture of the information that you broadcast, that you had reason to believe that was given by Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, I believe I can remember. Captain MacDonald, I assume through Mica and then from Mica to Tevere and then from Tevere to me, gave a description involved one female--
Q Of what race?
A Caucasian, and three other males, and I believe, I'm not certain, I think one of them was a male Negro.
Q You are indicating to the best of your recollection now the information that you received was that the people in the MacDonald house were the victims of an assault by a group of four persons. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And that the four persons were described to military policemen there and then relayed to you as having been one female Caucasian, two male Caucasians and one male Negro?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Now when you received that information what did you do?
A I think I went to the car and put it on the air to all patrols.
Q And what was the message that was put on the air?
A To be on the lookout. I recall that there was some difficulty as to the exact persons, as-sailants and I don't recall--right now I don't recall exactly what it was. We put a description on the air that approximated what Captain MacDonald, the description that he gave up, but there was some discrepancy.
Q There's no question in your mind that this message was put out that they were looking for three males and one white female?
A That's correct.
Q And these persons were wanted for investigation in connection with the assault and mur-der of various individuals at the MacDonald house?
A That wasn't put on the air.
Q What was it that you were telling the various patrols they should look for or why they should look for this group of persons?
A I did not--my radio in my car is not of the type that I could talk to all patrols. Most of the time I can, but some of the time, I can't. So I called the desk and gave them the description and told them to repeat it over the main radio net.
Q And they were to repeat what instructions or information--the information as to what the military policemen heard?
A I don't know. I don't recall.
Q Do you remember giving Sergeant Boulware any other information on any explanation that he should in turn repeat or have repeated to all patrols?
A I could have possibly, but I don't recall.
Q Well is it fair to understand that the purpose of such a message was to alert the patrols to stop and check out any group of persons resembling the four that we've been talking about this morning?
A Yes, it's fair.
Q Now you have no information that the people you had described as to the type of clothing they had on, had you?
A Not at this time.
Q So therefore it was a possibility, certainly a consideration that they might have been per-sons who were civilians on the Fort Bragg reservation at that time?
A Yes, sir, there was some consideration.
Q How many roads are there that lead off of Fort Bragg that are accessible to civilian vehi-cles?
A Roads or entrances?
Q Entrances.
A Four, I would say. I believe there are four.
Q Well, what is the main road?
A The main entrance, Bragg Boulevard.
Q What are the other three?
A Yadkin Road, Manchester--and Manchester Road.
Q Then there are two other entrances?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now there exists for the military police who are assigned to Fort Bragg an alert plan that could close off these roads for the purpose of conducting an investigation, is there not?
A I don't recall any specific alert plan that we have, but we can close off the roads. I'm certain that there is some alert plan somewhere but I have never seen it.
Q Did you at anytime issue such an order or instructions that the roads leading off Fort Bragg either be closed or placed under strict surveillance for the purpose of looking for a group of four people?
A I think that I--that the--I'm not sure about this at all, because I remember the radio oper-ator saying something to the fact that he posted patrols at the exits, but I am not at all sure about this.
Q Who would have been the person that we are talking about that might have made the statement?
A I mentioned it to someone. I don't know whether it was while I was at the scene or any other time. I don't know.
Q Might I suggest to you that you had some conversation with Sergeant Caldwell of the mil-itary police in regard to the desirability of posting the entrances and exits of Fort Bragg re-servation?
A I possibly did. I'm not sure. I remember talking about it, talking to someone about it.
Q And would you agree or disagree if I were to suggest to you that the fact that Sergeant Caldwell proposed that the exits be placed under surveillance, and that at that time you de-clined to issue such an order?
A I never have--there's nothing--Sergeant Caldwell and I didn't have a conversation like that, of a nature where he advised me that I should do this or do that.
Q I didn't mean that he advised you. I asked you whether or not it was not suggested to you by Sergeant Caldwell that an alert be placed and all the entrances and exits to Fort Bragg reservation be placed under surveillance by military police to look for a group of four people, and I suggest to you that in fact that you declined to follow through on that idea at that time.
A I don't recall. I don't know.
Q Did you ever have that type of conversation with any other military policemen if you don't believe it was Sergeant Caldwell on the morning of February 17th?
CPT SOMERS: I object. I recognize that our proceedings here are lax; however, this is way outside the scope of any direct examination, and the relevance is tenuous at best.
COLONEL ROCK: Would counsel for the defense--
MR. SEGAL: Yes, certainly. The only reason that I understand this proceeding is in existence at this moment is that the government has chosen to disregard the statements made by the accused, the fact that there were this group of four persons, and the fact that the govern-ment is going on the theory the fact that the accused is responsible for the incidents that took place here, it is our suggestion to the court and to the investigating officer that in fact the government had an opportunity to take steps that might have resulted in the apprehen-sion of the persons as was suggested by the defendant, but that in fact the government did not act properly on that suggestion, and did not act in a fashion which would have perhaps culminated in a different type of proceedings that's here; and we propose during the course of these hearings, I think, to establish the suggestion that I have put to Lt. Paulk was in fact made to him.
CPT SOMERS: May I respond to that, sir?
COLONEL ROCK: Yes.
CPT SOMERS: The point is entirely irrelevant. The accused is here faced by a charge to be investigated that he in fact was the perpetrator of these crimes. The government is charged now with showing some evidence that leads to that conclusion. Evidence which would lead to some kind of conclusion that the military police might or might not have done further in-vestigation on some other lead is irrelevant. What's relevant is what evidence do we have concerning this particular accused.
MR. SEGAL: It is my understanding, Colonel, that the assignment of the military police Crimi-nal Investigation Division was to investigate this tragedy that took place, and it is our sug-gestion to you, and in fact there is evidence, that they pursued the line of inquiry that re-sulted in the accusation against the Captain because in a sense they lost the proper oppor-tunity that might very well have sustained the position he took from the beginning that these killings were the results of the activities of a group of four persons that have been described.
I think nothing can be more relevant than the fact an attempt might have been made that would have verified his version of this case as opposed to the government's theory.
CPT SOMERS: Sir, the military police and the CID are not on trial here. In fact the question is to investigate the charges against Captain MacDonald. Now if there is evidence which leads to a proper conclusion, and if we present that evidence, fine. If the evidence that the government presents does not lead to that conclusion, also fine. But any extraneous or dif-ferent activities of the CID are in fact irrelevant as to whether the government does or does not have evidence to indicate that the accused is the perpetrator of these crimes.
COLONEL ROCK: Any further argument?
CPT SOMERS: I have no further argument, sir.
MR. SEGAL: No further argument by counsel for the accused.
COLONEL ROCK: Your objection is overruled. Proceed.
Q The question, Lt. Paulk, did you ever have a conversation with any military policemen, either Sergeant Caldwell or any of the others, in which one of these military policemen sug-gested that roadblocks be established around Fort Bragg, and that you declined at that time to follow through on that suggestion?
A At some time we discussed the feasibility of roadblocks and whether I declined or not is uncertain, with the advantage of hindsight, I would have set up a roadblock. Now whether they were set up or not is another thing, because the radio operator explained to me later on that when he obtained the description that he posted at the gates or something to that effect. I'm not--I can't be at all sure about that.
Q May I ask you who the radio operator was that you are referring to?
A I don't know.
Q Well, would that have been an operator who had a regular tour of duty that we now could check out, and establish who that was?
A I assume you could check out to see who the radio operator was that night. One of the patrols is bound to know.
Q Does the radio room for the Fort Bragg military police contain an automatic tape recording device for all messages broadcast and received?
A Yes, it does.
Q So in fact if the radio operator ever did broadcast a message to set up roadblocks that would be contained on the tapes for the evening and the morning of February 17th, 1970?
A It certainly would.
Q Do you recall talking to Sergeant Robert J. Duffy of the military police about the question of roadblocks?
A No.
Q I beg your pardon?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you recall seeing Sergeant Duffy at all on the scene of Castle Drive that morning?
A I'm not sure.
Q Do you know who Sergeant Duffy is?
A Yes, I do.
Q Now at some point someone sent a direction that ambulances be brought to Castle Drive address. Who did that?
A I don't know how many people did it, or the exact circumstances. I did it one time.
Q When did that happen?
A Pretty soon after--I asked for ambulances right after I saw the people.
Q Well, as I gather the chronology you have given us this morning, you came into the house through the rear door, went to the master bedroom, and did certain things there, came out, looked into the front and rear bedrooms, then went into the living room, and possibly the kitchen, made some written notes and that is where the chronology that I understand ended.
Now I want to know if you can by extending that chronology tell us when and how you at least made any other communications with particular attention to the matter of an ambu-lance.
A All right. The exact chronology is contained in my written statement, and I'm not exactly sure that I am following it because I haven't been familiarized with my written statement re-cently.
Q Would you care to refresh your recollection?
A That would be all right with me.
(Witness referred to a document handed to him by Mr. Segal.)
A I called for ambulances and the CID right after I got there.
Q To the living room?
A Well, let's see. I called for the ambulances right after I ascertained how many victims there were and just made a real quick idea of what the situation was.
Q May I suggest to you that what happened was when you went looking at the front and rear bedrooms, you then went into the living room and you made certain notes for yourself.
Are you in agreement up to that point?
A I am in agreement. I am not exactly sure about the chronology, but I am in agreement in some of the basic things that I was doing.
Q Well, the chronology maybe of somewhat importance and I would like for you to search your memory, if you would, please, and tell us what you did after you looked into the other bedrooms and then went into the living room?
A I believe at this time, although I am not exactly sure, I believe that's when Dickerson came by and opened the door and then I zipped out the front door and called, I believe.
Q You say you called. Now what call did you make at that time?
A I asked for ambulances, for three ambulances, three or four ambulances.
Q Was that by radio?
A Yes.
Q Then what?
A And I asked them to hurry up with the CID.
Q And then after you made that call, what did you do?
A I went back inside.
Q And where did you go?
A I believe I was just covering the area insuring that nobody was bothering or touching any-thing, and at the same time taking notes as I was walking.
Q When you went outside you made this call for the ambulance, did you then stay outside for any particular purpose or reason, or did you go inside the house for any particular purpose or reason?
A I went inside. I didn't stay outside. I went back inside just to see, make sure that no one was bothering anything, and that everything was progressing the way it ought to with the Captain MacDonald.
Q Did you make the radio call from your own vehicle?
A I don't recall. I think I did.
Q Now when you came out, how many military police vehicles and other official vehicles were outside?
A I don't know.
Q Is it fair to say there was more than there had been when you first pulled up to the house, then just two other vehicles besides your own?
A Yes.
Q And were there other military police personnel and other official personnel in and about the outside of the house at that time while you were making the radio call?
A I don't recall.
Q Did you see any of them going into or coming out of the MacDonald house?
A Is the question, do I recall anybody specifically going in or about the house at that time?
Q Not by name, but did you see any personnel who were in or about the MacDonald house, go in or come out of the house, while you were making this radio call?
A No, I don't recall seeing anyone.
Q How about when--is it Private Dickerson?
A Specialist Four.
Q Specialist Dickerson--
A He was my driver at this time. He drives shifts.
Q When he unlocked the front door of the MacDonald house, wasn't there other policemen who were outside there and were then admitted into the house by the opening of the front door?
A There were some military policemen outside and they did come in.
Q They came in when Specialist Dickerson unlocked the front door?
A Right.
Q About how many were there?
A I don't know.
Q Did you see what they did or where they went when they came in the front door?
A Yes, I remember, I don't recall how many or who, or whether it was one or two or three.
One went down the hall.
Q In which direction would that be?
A Down the hallway towards the master bedroom, and I believe he went down there to as-sist Mica in whatever he was doing.
Q In other words, it could have been more than one?
A I don't know.
Q Now that incident of the opening of the front door by Specialist Dickerson took place be-fore you went out to make your radio call for the ambulances?
A I believe it did.
Q So that actually when you went to make that radio call, you left an undefined number of police personnel inside the MacDonald house?
A That's correct.
Q It at least included Mica, Tevere, Dickerson your driver and the one or more people that went back to help Mica with Captain MacDonald in the master bedroom?
A Correct.
Q At that point did you see either Sergeant Hagney or Caldwell in or about the house?
A I don't recall.
Q How about Sergeant Duffy?
A I don't recall.
Q You told us earlier this morning that you had given some kind of instruction for the military policemen to stay away from certain portions of the living room.
A Um-hum.
Q Were there in fact military policemen in there before you went out to make your radio call to the ambulances?
A I don't think I said this morning I gave instructions to stay away from the living room, or certain areas in the living room. I just said I gave instructions to stay away from the living room.
Q All right, we'll take that characterization. Did you give that instruction before you went out to make the radio call for ambulances?
A I don't recall.
Q All right, when you came back into the house after having made the radio call, were you of the impression that there were now several more people in and about the scene assisting with what ever investigatory work or police work that had to be done there?
A There weren't what I considered an excessive number of people. There were more people than there was when I went out.
Q I wasn't suggesting that it was excessive. All I was asking is were there – did you get the impression without taking a head count that when you came back in after making the radio call there were now additional personnel who were arriving on the scene undergoing, under-taking certain activities inside the MacDonald house?
A Yes I did. I got that impression.
Q Okay, now when you came back in what did you do at that time?
A I think I went back--I am not sure about this, but I think I went back and supervised the area to make sure--I'm trying to keep everything straight, no disturbance or anything by--by this.
Q Can you be a little bit helpful about the lights, the lighting condition of the living room and the kitchen?
A I'm not--I can tell you the lighting conditions, but I'm not real sure about where the light came from, although I seem to recall, and I'm not sure about this, but I think there was a light on in the kitchen. No, the kitchen light wasn't, I don't believe, but there was some light in that area.
Q In the living room, kitchen area, what we are talking about?
A Right.
Q And is it correct to say that at best it was a dim light?
A It was a dim light.
Q Was that light coming from a single source as opposed to several different places in the room?
A I think it was coming from a single source. I didn't actually see--remember exactly where it was coming from, but it wasn't the type of light where it just flooded all over the place which you could see real well.
Q On the basis of that lighting condition, as you best recall, you would not make a definite statement, would you, as to what track marks, foot prints, wet spots there were in the living room, kitchen, and dining room area?
A I think I could say pretty close exactly what, where I think that the maximum amount of traffic might have been, as far as if anything was disturbed, the only thing I think would have been the edge, the corner of that carpet and when you come in the door there.
Q Would you indicate to the investigating officer, please, how you were able to make those observations on the basis of what you recall to be a dim light from a single source without the aid of any flashlight or any other light?
A Well, I could see the carpet. That's all there is to it. I could see the carpet.
Q Excuse me. What color was the carpet, sir?
A I don't recall.
Q Why don't you recall?
A I don't know.
Q Was it light or dark?
A I don't recall.
Q And for that reason, you don't recall if it was sufficient light to show as to what the true color was of the carpet. Isn't it fair to say that?
A No I wouldn't say that. I remember looking at the carpet. I don't recall the color of it but I remember looking at the carpet. I remember seeing grass on the carpet.
Q You remember seeing grass. What I am asking you again, Lieutenant Paulk, on the basis of the lighting conditions of the existing--considering the size of the room, the origin of the light was from a single source, can you indicate to me how you could state with certainty that you were able to observe all the places of noticeable traffic, whether there was dampness or grass without the aid of any flashlight or any additional light?
A The light was sufficient in my opinion, it was sufficient, that I could see the room enough to tell its general makeup, well enough to see--that I could see the grass, the blades of grass and the grass particles on the floor, on the carpet.
Q Would you concede that it would be more difficult to observe a wet spot on a dark carpet than it would be on a light carpet?
A I concede to that, yes.
Q And then without knowing therefore whether the carpet was a light carpet or a dark car-pet would you want to reserve any judgment as to whether you were able to see all the areas which might have had areas of wetness on it?
CPT SOMERS: I object. He's answered this question several times.
MR. SEGAL: I might say, sir, that Lieutenant Paulk has given his conclusion. What we want to explore with him is the basis for the conclusion.
COLONEL ROCK: Objection overruled.
A Would you give me the question again?
Q The question was, would you want to reserve any conclusion that you are certain you made all the observations of the wet places and the unusual markings on the floor in view of the limitations of your ability to observe at that time?
A There were areas in the living room, dining room, kitchen area, that I assume--but I am not sure--that I could not see, because of one thing or another, either furniture, over in the corner, or either I didn't want to walk across the carpet so that nothing would be disturbed again. I did not walk around the--in the center area of the living room in an effort to avoid upsetting anything that might be. So therefore, in that context, yes, I may have missed a wet spot or something of that nature; simply I could not walk over there or did not want to walk over there.
Q What was it you were looking for on the floor?
A I was just looking for anything that might be found that would be relative, that wouldn't normally be there.
Q And you considered the wet spots and the grass on the floor to be foreign matter?
A I would.
Q You were, of course, aware at that point and several of the military policemen had come through the room having walked on the wet grass out side?
A Yes.
Q Now were you looking for any mud or dirt on the floor?
A Not specifically, not specifically.
Q And it would be rather difficult to see any soil on the floor under the lighting conditions you described?
A You could see where the carpet--or boots, where my boots included, had walked over the carpet. You could see the dirt.
Q How about civilian shoes? Do you think they would have made the same type impressions?
A Civilian shoes?
Q Yes, sir.
A I assume they would have.
Q You assume?
A Well, some boots have ripple soles on them.
Q They also have civilian shoes with smooth leather soles. Were you under the impression at that time that you could make observations of the soil or the grass or the foreign matter that came from civilian shoes under the lighting conditions you've described?
A I couldn't tell if I was in the room whether the piece of foreign matter came from a civilian shoe or a boot or what.
COLONEL ROCK: Let me ask a question to clarify something in my mind Lieutenant Paulk, dur-ing this pause in the questioning. I understood that you observed foreign matter on the floor when you first entered the living room and prior to any MPs coming into that room. Is that correct?
A No, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: You did not observe foreign matter until after MPs were in there?
A I am not sure what is foreign matter, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Well, the strange material that you saw on the carpet. When did you see it first?
A When I first noted it? It was after the MPs had entered.
COLONEL ROCK: After the MPs had entered. Thank you.
(Continued questions by Mr. Segal.)
Q Did you at any time observe persons other than those who were in either fatigues or kha-kis in the MacDonald house that night?
A I don't recall. I sort of half way remember a medic there that wasn't in uniform but I am not sure at all about this.
Q You did in fact see some medics in the MacDonald house?
A Oh, yes, I did.
Q And how were they dressed?
A It would be hard for me to say how they were dresses because I know that all medics or most medics go around in whites.
Q In white orderly jackets of some sort?
A As far as I remember the ones I – the main ones I remember were in the ones who carried Captain MacDonald out, down the hallway and passed me, and they were wearing whites. As I remember, they were wearing whites.
Q Including white pants?
A Yes, sir, as far as I remember, as I recall.
Q You have an impression, I gather, from what you are saying, of at least a medic who seemed to you to be out of uniform?
A Sort of an impression, but I can't exactly picture it in my mind.
Q How did you conclude that that person was in fact a medic?
A I seem to remember a white medic jacket under a fatigue coat. You know, the uniform like a medic wears.
Q And what did the pants seem to you to be like?
A I don't recall.
Q They were whites as far as you are concerned?
A No--well, now, like I say, I'm not so sure. I'm not absolutely sure that I saw this individual
--he seems sort of a hazy area, but I can't fix it now.
COLONEL ROCK: Excuse me. Can counsel indicate approximately how much longer he desires to question? It would perhaps be appropriate to call for a break.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I think perhaps it would be appropriate to break now. I think we have a number of matters yet to discuss with Lieutenant Paulk.
COLONEL ROCK: All right, this investigation will be recessed until 1:30.
(The hearing recessed at 1205 hours, 6 July 1970.)
(The hearing reopened at 1435 hours, 6 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The Article 32 investigation will come to order.
During the recess it has come to my attention that paragraph 4b, AR 345-60, dated 7 May 1968, prohibits the release of information pertaining to disciplinary actions. I am further in-formed that the above mentioned army regulation is applicable to these proceedings. There-fore these proceedings will henceforth be closed to the public. However, I wish to inform the counsel for the defense that they may request permission to this rule in accordance with par-agraph 4c(3) of the same regulation. In the meantime proceedings will continue in closed session. Therefore all persons except the investigating officer, my legal advisor, counsel for the accused, the accused, and counsel for the government will remove themselves from this hearing room at this time.
MR. SEGAL: May it please the Colonel, I would ask for an additional exception at this time for the mother of the accused, Mrs. MacDonald. It seems to me it would be within the spirit of regulation, even without a specific exception to permit her to be present. We will, of course, in accordance with the suggestion that we have a right to proceed to request an exception.
We would ask for a very brief recess so that we may discuss this matter and make a determi-nation after consulting with the accused himself as to what instructions he wishes counsel to proceed under.
COLONEL ROCK: Would you consider fifteen minutes or half an hour to be acceptable?
MR. SEGAL: Fifteen minutes, I think, would be more than adequate, Colonel Rock.
COLONEL ROCK: All right. I will not make a firm decision on the exception that you have mentioned until after the recess. The recess of fifteen minutes is granted.
(The hearing recessed at 1438 hours, 6 July 1970.)
(The hearing opened at 1500 hours, 6 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order, and it should be noted that the witness, First Lieutenant, has been excused during this next portion of the hearing.
MR. SEGAL: May it please the investigating officer. Counsel for the accused has had an op-portunity to review AR 345-60 in regard to the portion enunciated by the investigating officer in regard to the presence of the public, members of the family, during the course of these Article 32 proceedings. It our position that AR 345-60 is not applicable to these proceedings for a number of reasons, which I would like to state at this time. First and foremost, it does appear on a fair reading of the entire AR that it is intended to prohibit the investigating authorities, such as criminal investigators, and the holders of military records, releasing information about a person accused under military law. Prior to the beginning of any judicial proceedings. However, it does also appear to us that this is not intended to apply to the judicial proceedings in a case and we are satisfied that the Article 32 proceedings in a capital case where a man's life is on trial are the beginning stages of a trial, and that wherein in those proceedings he is, I think, under the interpretation of the Court of Military Appeals in Nichols versus the United States decided in 23 CMR 343 in 1957, the decision of the Court Of Military Appeals that he is at a critical stage of the proceedings which is judicial in nature and therefore he is entitled to have the hearing open, certainly upon his request, which was in fact made in this case.
It seems to us, further, that even assuming for the moment for the purpose of discussion that this is not a judicial proceeding within the meaning of that term, that nevertheless the intent of the Army Regulation here was entirely directed at protecting the rights of an ac-cused from information which might prejudice him; and that the accused has a right to state to the investigating officer in the proceedings that he desires to have these proceedings open; that he is, I think, the one whose rights are at stake here, and if he chooses in a form to waive the so-called protection, that the investigating officer believes the regulation sur-rounds him with, that he likewise has the right to dispense with that protection where he feels, in fact, it may be a hindrance to his proper defense and a hindrance to the proceedings on his behalf. And so for that reason we think the regulation is not applicable, and for all those reasons we suggest that we either are not covered by the Army Regulation, or it does not apply where the accuse is willing to state to the investigating officer that he waives any so called protection that may stem from this regulation. I may state to you now that I am prepared to offer such a wavier on the record with the assent of the accused that he does wavier the closed proceedings and does, in fact, in contrary, demand open proceedings to be held in which all persons who choose to be here may be represented.
COLONEL ROCK: I have noted your comments, however I reiterate that the AR does specific-ally prohibit the release of the information and the only recourse I have to suggest, or that I stated earlier, was to inform counsel that you may request permission for an exception to this rule in accordance with paragraph 4c(3) of the cited regulation.
MR. SEGAL: May I inquire of the investigating officer as to the appropriate authority that would respond to, to waive or set aside this position and permit the hearing to be open?
COLONEL ROCK: It would either be my appointing authority in the case, Major General Flana-gan, or it would be the Judge Advocate General himself in Washington.
MR. SEGAL: At this time, Colonel Rock, we would request an adjournment of at least approxi-mately fifteen minutes to enable us to make some direct telephone communication with one or the other of those two authorities. And we would reserve, if we may, the right to request a further adjournment, perhaps until tomorrow morning, if we are unable to make telephone contact in this regard.
COLONEL ROCK: The first adjournment is granted. The second one as is necessary.
(The hearing adjourned at 1505 hours, 6 July 1970.)
(The hearing reconvened at 0830 hours, 7 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The investigation will come to order. Let the record reflect that the persons present at the closing of the investigation yesterday are present this morning with the exception of Mr. Eisman who is temporarily out of the room.
Yesterday at the conclusion we were recessed for the purpose of counsel for the accused contacting appropriate authorities to try and get an exception to the Army Regulation allow-ing the hearing to be open to the public. At this time, what does the counsel for the ac-cused have to state?
MR. SEGAL: May it please the investigating officer. I want to report that yesterday after-noon following the adjournment that was granted in this matter, that a number of steps were taken by counsel for Captain MacDonald. Among those steps, Major General Hodson, the Judge Advocate General of the Army, was spoken to by myself with regards to this matter.
At his suggestions following the conversation with him, calls were placed to Major General Tolson and subsequently to Colonel Lennon, the staff Judge Advocate General, as well as other people whose contact at this point doesn't seem to be relevant. The result of those conversations, sir, Colonel Lennon prepared and caused to have sent last night, at approxi-mately 1800 hours a telegram to the Department of the Army Judge Advocate General's Of-fice, in which it was represented to The Judge Advocate General that the counsel for the accused wished to have a waiver of the provisions of AR 346-60. That was done; of course, even though we had represented to all the parties I have mentioned before that we did not believe in fact the AR covered this proceeding. But in the interest of expedition, the mes-sage was sent on the basis of a request from us that the provision be waived and the hearing be held open. In fact--in view of the fact that the telegram did not leave until 1800 hours, and that it is fair to assume there was nobody in the Judge Advocate General's Office at Department of the Army, to receive it or decide at that time, it is my request at this time that we adjourn these proceedings for at least the morning subject to our being able to contact the investigating officer and advise how soon we may expect an answer from Department of the Army, and whether we may expect one at all this morning. I would say it is our reasonable estimation that we have a right to expect an answer in this regard in the early part of the day, but we do feel that it will be undesirable and perhaps prejudicial to Captain MacDonald, the accused, in this case, to go forward in these proceedings while there has been no decision made on this request that was forwarded so late last night. It seems to me the steps, because we have taken a certain amount of time to resolve this question of the accused's right to have an open Article 32 hearing, that in the interest of justice and in the interest of fairness we could adjourn this matter for a few hours longer, subject of course, to our ability to contact the investigating officer as soon as we receive an answer one way or another.
COLONEL ROCK: I am prepared to grant your request with the assumption that if we have not heard by 1330, that is 1:30 p.m. this afternoon, that we will proceed at that time. In other words, no further delays in this matter.
MR. SEGAL: I understand your position, sir, and I assume that you will be directing that the proceedings go forward at that time.
COLONEL ROCK: Affirmative. Is that satisfactory?
MR. SEGAL: We understand the position and we are prepared to proceed under whatever in-structions you are going to issue in this matter.
COLONEL ROCK: And through my legal advisor I will be available any time prior to that time in the event a decision is made.
These proceedings will be adjourned until 1330 or earlier if a decision is received.
(The hearing adjourned at 0838, 7 July 1970.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 7 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order.
MR. SEGAL: May it please the investigating officer, the time is now 1:32 or rather 1332 hours, and counsel for the accused has not at this time received any communication from either the convening Authority or from the Staff Judge Advocate General or any of the other persons who have been contacted in regard to our request to waive or to not apply the provisions of AR 345-60, which would require these proceedings by that waiver to be open to the members of the family, friends, public and the press. In the absence of having received such a reply, sir, it is our request that these proceedings be adjourned until further notice for two purposes. First of all, for the purpose of awaiting a response, either affirmative, negative or otherwise, from The Judge Advocate General's office in Washington; and secondly to enable counsel for the accused, sir, to file an appropriate injunctive action with the United States Court of Military Appeals in Washington, D.C., asking that these proceedings be adjourned until such time as authority is given for these proceedings to be held in open fashion.
We would, of course, proceed to file such pleading promptly with the court and would not cause needless delay, but I would believe it would require at least an adjournment of two days to facilitate the filing of those pleadings. I would hope that perhaps before that time, we might receive a reply from the Department of the Army, The Judge Advocate General's office.
COLONEL ROCK: Your request has been noted but I reiterate that the hearing will continue as originally scheduled for 1330 today, and I can assure you, as has been indicated previously, that all of the substantial rights of the accused will be observed and this will be a fair hearing. I believe at this time that counsel for the government has a request.
CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir. At this time counsel for the government would request that this hearing not proceed on the day of the 8th of July, for the reason that the government coun-sel's presence is required in Federal District Court, and request that when we conclude today that we adjourn until 8:30 on the morning of the 9th of July.
COLONEL ROCK: Does counsel for the accused have a statement?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir. Colonel Rock, I would respectfully object to adjournment for that pur-pose. The proceedings to which Captain Somers refers to, of course, sir, is a certain action that was brought by the accused in this case, among others, the convening authority of this court-martial, as well as other persons. It is our desire, of course, to pursue the remedies that we have requested the Federal Court grant us, but it is our desire and intention that these proceedings go forward and that at this time we do not see the necessity for the ac-cused himself to be present at those proceeding in Clinton, North Carolina, since there is no assurance that there will be a fact hearing in that case. I am advised that the government has already assigned two other counsels; I believe Captain Marchetti and another counsel to assist the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of North Carolina. It seems to me that there is an imminent number of lawyers available, and that the prosecution in this case, if at all feasible, should go forward. I would think that counsel for the government, being as-sisted by Captain Thompson, who has been involved in the prosecution for quite some time, we have reason to believe that Captain Thompson is quite familiar with the evidence in this case if that evidence should ever become an issue in the case in the Federal Court which we do not believe it would be, and that in view of the fact that the government would have at least two attorneys available, one of them could go to Clinton for the hearing and one of them could be here, that it would be desirable, sir, to proceed these hearings. I, myself had planned on being present at these proceedings with Mr. Eisman asking leave of the court to be excused to be in Clinton tomorrow. We would therefore make up for some of the time that has been unavoidably lost because of the change in procedure as to whether these hearings should be open or not and it is our desire to the extent it is consistent with fairness to all sides that these hearings go along as expeditiously on as much a day by day basis, at least for the balance of this week, as can possibly arranged.
COLONEL ROCK: Does counsel for the government have any kind of argument?
CPT SOMERS: No, sir. It is the judgment of the government that the presence of the gov-ernment counsel at that hearing is necessary. For what it is worth, it is also the information of the government that Captain Thompson will be in a general court-martial tomorrow and will not be available to go anyway. We request, again, a delay.
COLONEL ROCK: I'd like to ask counsel for the government what will be your specific duties reference this matter in Clinton court tomorrow?
CPT SOMERS: Twofold, sir. One, I have done much of the research in the military law which was necessary for this hearing; and, two, although it is not intended to be evidentiary or to take evidence, should further evidence regarding anything involving this hearing be necessary I would be the only possible source of that information for the government.
MR. SEGAL: Col. Rock, if I may be heard, sir.
While I don't presume to judge in advance what Chief Judge Butler is going to do tomorrow, it is apparent that the government has filed an answer to the complaint that we filed, and that perhaps the largest portion of that answer relates to whether the District Court has any jurisdiction whatsoever to hear this case. I would say to you, sir, that in my best judgment as a lawyer, that the chances are almost nil that any evidentiary hearing will be heard tomorrow by Judge Butler; that essentially what I think we can look forward to, and what we certainly anticipate at the present time, is legal argument which requires no testimony by anyone, but only presentation of authorities and cases to the court, indicating whether or not there is an issue which the Federal District Court may now step into, the independence of the court-martial proceedings. As a matter of fact, the accused has the burden in that case, and granted, is not prepared to put on any evidence at this time for the reason, as we see the government's answer, we are to be in a position of having to deal mostly with legal problems tomorrow; and we have discussed this matter also with our local counsel, Mr. Nance, who is an experienced attorney and a member of the District Court, and who knows the court's operation quite well. In discussing this with Mr. Nance, he, I think it can be fairly said, is likewise of the opinion that we would be essentially engaged in legal arguments and discussion of legal issues to determine whether the court would have authority to proceed in this case; and only after all these rather complex jurisdictional questions have been dealt with will we get around to the question of a hearing, and I would think that the government itself is not to produce the numerous witnesses it would have to answer the allegation. We have, in fact, spoken with the various government witnesses that we know would have to be called and none of them are on call even for tomorrow and were in fact asking counsel for the accused whether we had any time tables when they might be expected in these proceedings.
So I would think it would be really, although desirable under different circumstances, undesir-able in this case where we have a week initially set aside to get testimony on, to lose anoth-er day of this time for that reason. If I though the government was short handed of counsel I would not in anyway resist it but the government should be represented. However, I think that the availability of the United States Attorney and his assistants and of Captain Marchet-ti would be I think more than adequate representation in this case for the government's posi-tion.
CPT SOMERS: May I respond to that, sir?
COLONEL ROCK: Yes, sir.
CPT SOMERS: I think that one of the key words of the defense counsel has been essentially, or words that are similar, mostly and probably and in my best judgment. The defense counsel cannot tell you that there will be no question of fact which will rise. He assures you it will probably not, but that's the best he can do. We do not feel that this is sufficient; the possi-bility that a factual issue may arise is in the judgment of the government is sufficient to re-quire that the source of information be available. The government also sees some incongruity in the position of the defense between whether it does want a delay or it does not want a delay, but we'll pass over that. Thank you.
MR. SEGAL: May I suggest perhaps a pragmatic resolution? I don't want to prolong this, Colonel. I'm sure you have as much advice or help you're going to get this afternoon, but perhaps we could continue with these proceeding tomorrow, and if it should develop that we are needed, any one of us or Captain Somers, it is thirty miles from here to Clinton and then we would receive a phone call and we could arrange for possible adjournment. But in the face it is only a possibility I would hate to see us lose that time if we can possibly avoid that.
COLONEL ROCK: When does the hearing occur tomorrow?
CPT SOMERS: Ten o'clock, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: In the morning. Do you have any feeling for how long the hearing will last?
CPT SOMERS: The best judgment I can make from what I've been told is perhaps until one o'clock, perhaps longer.
COLONEL ROCK: Reference the request, we will continue tomorrow at eight-thirty as origi-nally scheduled, however if during the course of the hearings in Clinton it becomes evident that counsel for the government, Captain Somers, presence is required I will then at that time adjourn to allow his presence at that hearing.
CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: I believe that he was being queried by counsel for the accused. Lt. Paulk, please take your seat, and I remind you again that you are still under oath.
Question by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lt. Paulk, since we adjourned yesterday have you had occasion to discuss your testimony here in this hearing with any person?
A None other than Captain Somers.
Q And what was the nature of that discussion?
A It was just--I don't even--I don't recall exactly. It wasn't anything I considered impor-tant.
Q Well--
COLONEL ROCK: That wasn't what the counsel asked you. He asked you a specific question.
Please address yourself to that question.
A Yes, sir. I asked him, or I discussed with him what was the purpose of, of the talk about the, possibly spot, wet spot on the floor or, or what was important, so important about the grass or this or that, and specifically, that was one of the specific things that I, I asked Cap-tain Somers about, and about how much longer would it be until we finished with the ques-tioning, and what I might expect from you today.
Q You mean what additional questions you might expect in regard to the examination here in this hearing today?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did Captain Somers give you his judgment or his opinion of what else might be asked you today?
A He didn't know.
Q And did Captain Somers explain to you what he considered to be the significance of the questions about the foreign substance, foreign matters on the rug in the MacDonald house?
A No.
Q Did he make any answer at all to your question about what was the significance of the questions on that subject?
A Not that I recall. Offhand, he was rather busy with this and that and different paperwork he was handling and talking to different people.
Q Are you telling this inquiry that you never in fact got an answer to the question that you posed to Captain Somers on what was the importance of all the questioning about the alleged foreign matter on the floor of the MacDonald living room?
A No sir, I'm not saying that. I just said I don't recall. I don't remember any specific portion that he might have said.
Q Do you remember anything at all that was said to you in response to your question on that subject matter?
A No.
Q Did anything else become the subject of discussion between you and Captain Somers in regard to what transpired here yesterday?
A I don't recall anything.
Q Now may I ask, Lieutenant Paulk, whether you had occasion to mention or discuss your testimony given here with other persons other than Captain Somers?
A No.
Q May I ask you why there was any particular reason that you are unable to recall what Captain Somers' responses were to you about the importance of the foreign matter on the rug?
A No particular reason. It was just sort of a passing sort of thing. It was not a, a--either Captain Somers didn't consider it--was too busy at the time or didn't consider it import, or he was too busy or something to consider it to warrant time enough to, for explanation.
Q Are you saying to us now that he did not explain it to you, or you just simply don't recall, what, if any explanation he made?
A I just simply don't recall what, if any, explanation that he did make upon it.
Q Well, is that because some other things happened to you yesterday which were perhaps more significant or of interest to you than your testimony here in this proceeding?
A No, nothing happened unusual to me yesterday that particularly stands out.
Q Did you consider your participation in these proceedings yesterday to be a matter of some importance to both yourself and the Army?
A Yes I did, sir.
Q And did you yourself, believe that the questions in regard to the so called presence of foreign matter on the MacDonald rug to be a question of some importance to this hearing?
A Do I consider it now, or did I consider it then?
Q At the conclusion of yesterday's proceedings were you of the opinion that we were dis-cussing something here which might be of some importance to a determination of this hear-ing?
A At the conclusion--during the questioning I wasn't, I didn't exactly see the point then, but I began to see the point at the end.
Q And that was when you brought up the matter to Captain Somers, is that right?
A I don't know if it was exactly then or not. It was some time after the conclusion of the hearing.
Q Now, do you recall the last thing that was said to you by the inquiry officer, Colonel Rock, before you left the courtroom yesterday?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that, sir?
A He told me not to discuss this with anyone and--anyone.
Q And did you consider that your making certain statements and asking certain questions of Captain Somers was consistent with the instruction given to you by Colonel Rock?
A Well, I was--
CPT SOMERS: I object to this. The defense counsel is attempting, apparently, to lead this witness to believe that the instructions of the investigating officer prevented him from speak-ing to the counsel in this case. I think that that's an erroneous conclusion and I think it is unnecessary for the defense counsel to attempt to get such a conclusion.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I am not attempting to establish anything as to what this witness' conclu-sions are. I am simply making the point that nothing should be more absolutely crystal clear than a witness who was under cross examination had no right to discuss with anyone the nature and testimony of his--the importance of his testimony; and that in fact this witness did receive an instruction which seems to me to have been crystal clear, and that is my judgment, sir, at this point, it is sufficiently clear that this witness did not obey the instruc-tion of the inquiry officer, and that we are indeed perhaps formulating some release in regard to that. At this point I would ask the hearing officer to rule on the question of whether its order to this witness who was under cross examination was in fact violated by the conversa-tion between Lieutenant Paulk and Captain Somers. I don't suggest necessarily the witness did this with deliberate intention of doing something wrong, sir, but deliberately or uninten-tionally, he nevertheless created a situation which proposes a very grave question. I know of only one exception of a person who may speak to any party about a case when he is under cross examination, and that single exception is the accused himself, who may never be denied the assistance of counsel, and only he when on the witness stand is excused for some recess or for overnight adjournment of the case, any consult with anyone else; and the wit-ness, obviously not being the accused in this case was not exempt from the order of this court, and that we have here a situation which requires, I think, some relief to the accused, and at this point I, myself, am not certain as to what we can possibly do to rectify the situa-tion. I would want a few moments to discuss with co-counsel that problem, but I do ask ini-tially the hearing officer to rule on this question that the order entered yesterday has in fact been abrogated by this particular witness.
COLONEL ROCK: Counsel for the government?
CPT SOMERS: The prosecution would respond to that by saying that it appreciates the infor-mation and the experience of the defense counsel as to what he feels or he knows or he wants to tell us about who may speak to a witness who is under cross examination, but we propose that the exception to the rule is broader that he led you to believe in that it encom-passes as an exception either side, whether it be the accused or the prosecution so long as it is only one of the parties to the proceedings.
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will be adjourned for five minutes.
(The hearing adjourned at 1403 hours, 7 July 1970.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1410 hours, 7 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will continue.
First, let me note that the counsel for the government has objected to Mr. Segal's line of questioning of this witness. I sustain the objection and will instruct counsel for the defense to continue with his cross examination of this witness on the merits.
Mr. Segal, I further wish to state that it is my opinion that a witness has the right to gen-erally discuss his testimony with the counsel for either side. From the witness' responses to your questions, I am satisfied that the exchange that took place between Captain Somers and the witness was not of the nature as to be prejudicial to the accused. You may contin-ue with your cross examination on the merits.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, I think yesterday we had interrupted the questioning at that junction where you had returned to the MacDonald house after having made what I believe a radio call to your headquarters for ambulances and for CID. Is that your recollection of where we stopped yesterday?
A I believe that was it, sir.
Q Now when you came back into the MacDonald house, into what room did you enter?
A I came into the living room, sir, through the front door.
Q Through the front door, and did you stay in the living room initially?
A Initially, yes.
Q What did you do there?
A I was taking – I believe I was taking notes at this time, I was using my notebook writing down quick notes and more or less sort of supervising anything that, what was going on, having these personnel stand over to the edge of the room.
Q Is it more accurate to say that when you came back in you found that there were military policemen in all parts of this living room and other parts of the house whom you believed might be in a position of interfering with the preservation of the crime scene and of evidence by the way they were then moving about?
A No, sir, it wouldn't be fair to say that.
Q Well, what would you characterize the scene as when you came back in with regard to what the various military policemen were doing?
A I can give you what I saw. I think I can better, sir, by pointing it out on the chart over there if you would like for me to.
Q First of all I want to go back before you point it out whether or not it is correct to say that when you came in you believe that there were, first of all too many military policemen in or about the building, and secondly, they were not being aware of the necessity of preserving the crime scene as it was.
A I believe they were aware of the necessity of preserving the crime scene. Now in answer to the second part of your question, did I feel that there were--that there were an inordi-nate number of personnel in the area –
Q Yes?
A I feel that there were military policemen who were standing in the area who were not needed at the time.
Q And as a matter of fact, did you not characterize--strike that--What did you do when you made this observation that there were military policemen who were not needed in the area?
A A number of times, several times, I told military policemen in the area to be sure not to touch anything or move anything or upset any type of object or anything. I also told some military policemen to go outside and guard the area around the house and not let anyone in that was not on some sort of official type of business.
Q And would it be fair to say that you were more than somewhat angry at the number of men in the house who did not seem to be aware of the necessity of leaving the crime scene in as much original condition as possible?
A I wouldn't say I was angry about it, no.
Q Do you recall giving an interview to Captain Douthat, the assistant defense counsel in this case?
A Yes, I do, sir.
Q And do you recall him asking you to describe what happened when you came back into the MacDonald living room after making the radio message?
A I don't--I recall the general conversation, yes, sir.
Q Do you recall telling Captain MacDonald that when you came back in the front door--I beg your pardon--you told Captain Douthat, that when you came back in the front door after making that radio call, that you started “kicking ass” about people being in the house?
A Those exact words, no, I don't recall, but I could have very well said it.
Q And it would be fair to say that expression you were indicating at least annoyance. If not more so of what you considered to be a failure of these MPs to make sure the crime scene was undisturbed?
A Not so much annoyance, as a little concerned over it. Kicking ass is sort of a common term in the Army.
Q And what you were doing by kicking ass was to boot some of them outside to take up po-sitions guarding the building, is that right?
A I was telling personnel to go outside.
Q And to those you did not order outside you were telling them in no uncertain terms of ne-cessity of leaving the crime scene as undisturbed as possible?
A Yes, I was.
Q Now at that point did you go to the rear bedroom?
A Yes, I believe I did, sir.
Q Was that for the purpose of checking the progress of work that the MPs were doing there
--instead of the rear bedroom, I meant master bedroom.
A Yes, the master bedroom. Yes, I went back there to check to see how the MPs were do-ing and also to see if Captain MacDonald, what his condition was.
Q Now what did you observe about the MPs in that room? Were they in fact all doing their job at that time?
A As I recall they were. They were having a little bit of problem with the Captain, because the Captain was--seemed upset. He was attempting to stand up at times. It didn't look like a very good thing to do and they were--they wanted to help him, but yet they did not want him to stand up, and they didn't want him to strain to stand up.
Q As a matter of fact, what did you note that your driver, Specialist Dickerson, was doing in the master bedroom when you came back?
A I don't recall now.
Q May I suggest to you the fact that when you came back into the master bedroom, you observed that Dickerson wasn't doing anything because he was, to use, I think, the words, that you may have used, struck by the scene of bloodshed that was in that master bedroom?
A I don't recall that.
Q Do you recall telling Captain Douthat when he interviewed you in connection with this case that when you went into the master bedroom you did observe Dickerson and he seemed, again I quote the word “struck” at the scene of the bloodshed in the room?
A No, sir, I don't recall telling Captain Douthat that either.
Q Would you say now, upon reflecting upon what you remember that happened in the room that this would be an accurate characterization of what Specialist Dickerson's attitude or condition was at that time?
A No, I don't, I don't recall Dickerson--as far as I can comment on Specialist Dickerson's condition, but I can't, I don't recall that at this particular instance, him being in the bedroom and being in this particular condition.
Q Well, what about Specialist Dickerson's activities in the house? What did you notice about that?
A He opened the front door.
Q And after that what other function did he perform in regard to the investigation or the as-sistance of persons at the crime scene?
A I don't recall.
Q As a matter of fact, didn't you have occasion also to tell one of the MP Sergeants to get everybody out who was not needed and keep everyone else away?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that was in addition to your own repeated instructions to the various MPs about the necessity for not touching things and for staying out of the way?
A Yes, it was.
Q And wasn't it during this time that you came back to see the, what work was progressing in the master bedroom and determine the condition of Captain MacDonald, that Specialist Mi-ca gave you the description of the four individuals who had been described to him by Captain MacDonald as being responsible for these assaults?
A I don't recall Specialist Mica ever giving me a description of the assailants.
Q Is it your recollection that Specialist Tevere gave you that information?
A I think it was Tevere. Tevere or Hagney, one of the two.
Q Now do you recall anything that Captain MacDonald was saying in the bedroom of this se-cond visit by yourself?
A I believe, although I'm not sure he asked about his kids again.
Q And when he asked about his kids, was he asking for what their condition was, or what kind of treatment was being given them?
A Yes, I recall him asking, I don't know if it was this particular point. I seem to recall him asking, “How are my kids?” I believe those were his words.
Q And he was struggling to try and get up into a sitting position at that time?
A Yes, he was.
Q And would it be correct to say that the military policemen who were with him were trying to encourage him not to move around because of the nature of his injuries at that time?
A Yes, they were, sir.
Q Now at that time did you then leave the house to go to Warrant Officer Kalin's home?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And what happened when you went to Mr. Kalin's house?
A I remember seeing Mr. Kalin and asking if it would be all right if I used his telephone to call the Provost Marshal.
Q Where did you see Mr. Kalin?
A I believe he was in his driveway, sir, or on his doorstep, doorway or doorstep.
Q And how long would you say that was after you had initially arrived at the outside of the MacDonald house?
A I couldn't say for sure.
Q Well, give us your best estimate of how much time had elapsed since you had arrived and taken the various actions that you have been describing to us?
A I think it was a relative short period of time. I would say, I would say it was less than fif-teen minutes.
Q Would it be fair to say that it was somewhere between ten and fifteen minutes after you arrived when you went to Mr. Kalin's house?
A About the best I could do, sir, would be just to say it would be less than fifteen minutes, because when you are busy as I was the time passes rather fast.
Q Now you asked Mr. Kalin for permission to use his phone and he agreed to let you do that?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do then?
A I called; I believe I called Colonel Kriwanek, sir. I either called the desk or Colonel Kriwa-nek, and I could relate to you the conversation to either one. I don't know which one I called first.
Q Did you have a conversation with Colonel Kriwanek who is the Provost Marshal at this post and then did you have a conversation with the Desk Sergeant of the Military Police Head-quarters?
A Not necessarily in that order, but yes, sir, I did.
Q Now you called the military police desk. You then talked to Sergeant Boulware. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you tell Sergeant Boulware?
A I think at this time I gave him a description of the assailants.
Q And do you know the description you gave him?
A As I said before, there was some discrepancy in the description. I am not sure exactly which description I gave him at that time. The description I think I gave him was that there were two male Caucasians, one Negro and one female involved in--believed to be assailants.
Q And didn't you also ask Sergeant Boulware to see what he could do about hurrying up the arrival of the CID to the scene of this investigation?
A I could have very well done so.
Q Did you also ask him at that time where the ambulances that had been requested previ-ously by the radio message?
A Yes, I think I did.
Q And did Sergeant Boulware agree to make further calls to the CID and the ambulance peo-ple to see what was holding them back?
A Yes, he did.
Q Now at that juncture you finished these two telephone calls, and what did you do? Did you ask any questions of Mr. Kalin or his family?
A I'm not sure whether it was at this point or not, sir. I believe I asked Mr. Kalin did he hear any disturbance.
Q Do you recall what his answer was?
A I believe he said no.
Q Did you ask him whether he had been in his house before becoming aware of all the MP vehicles outside?
A No, I left immediately after that.
Q So you don't know whether he was in fact in a position to have heard anything from the MacDonald house?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you question anyone else in the Kalin house before you departed?
A No, I did not.
COLONEL ROCK: Counsel, I have one question I want to interject at this moment.
Lieutenant Paulk, do you by chance have any notes present with you here in this area that would assist you in remembering the sequence of, in perhaps expediting the testimony?
A My notes were destroyed and my statement was made from those notes.
COLONEL ROCK: I see. Thank you.
Q In regards to the question that's just been put to you by the inquiry officer, I gather both yesterday and today you said that you were making notes in some sort of personal notebook about various observations you had made.
A Yes, sir.
Q And what kind of a notebook was that?
A It was similar to the type you buy in the PX, a legal size paper, legal size tablet that slides now in the pocket of--similar to that one there.
Q Is it similar to the one that's just been handed to me, which is a black leatherette folder in which a legal pad can be held?
A This particular one had a clip, clipboard device on it, yes.
Q And how many notes or how many pages did you use to make these various notes of your observations on the morning of February 17th?
A I believe two pages, appropriately two pages.
Q And you made those notes because you fully expected at some later time you would have to make a statement in regard to your observations and what you learned that morning?
A That's correct sir.
Q And when did you make that statement?
A At the time and date indicated on my written statement there. It was around--
Q Well, let me suggest to you the date on your written statement that you identified yester-day, the one that was signed by you, on the original is 18 February of 1970 at 1000 hours.
And as far as you can recall that was about the time you made the statement. Is that cor-rect?
A That's correct, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: I'd like at this time for counsel to present to the witness a copy of that for his use. I think it may assist in the proceedings. This will be marked as a Government Exhibit.
CPT SOMERS: In that case, sir, let me give you this one.
COLONEL ROCK: It will be marked as Government Exhibit 2.
Q Now after you gave this statement on February 18th, what did you do with your hand-written notes?
A I threw them in the trash can I suppose, in the CID.
Q Why did you not preserve those notes which were made contemporaneously with the vari-ous observations that had been made?
A Because I made this paragraph on the second page of the--this portion on the second page of this statement is made directly from those notes. The notes were rather scribbled and illegible by anyone except me.
Q What portion of the second page represents the transposition from your handwritten notes to this typed form?
A The portion referring to the small knife lying on the floor near the dresser, the portion of the phone, the damp spot on the bed, the particular position of the bed clothes--well, the position of the bed clothes exactly how they were made up or turned down, the word “pig” as noted in those notes, the footprints were noted in those notes.
Q What footprints?
A Paragraph three there, sir, down the hallway, noticing blood on the floor and footprints made in blood near the bedroom.
Q Did that represent the, to the best of your recollection, all the things that you had noted on those yellow pieces of paper that had become transcribed into the three page written statement you gave to Warrant Officer Ellis?
A No, the magazines were involved in the notes. The lights, the general look from the door-way of the children was in there.
Q Anything else?
A The kitchen, the blood near the entrance were part of those notes, as I recall right now that's about as much as I can remember.
Q So at that time you went and destroyed your original notes you were satisfied that you had caused to be placed in these written statements all the pertinent observations you had made.
A As many as I could recall, sir.
Q And there isn't a single reference in any portion of your statement that you now refer to as to what foreign material you observed on the living room carpet is there?
A No, there's nothing in here.
Q And that would indicate to you that you in fact made no notes at all on your yellow pad about the presence or absence of foreign material on the living room carpet?
A Well, I don't believe I make any notes, in reference to foreign material on the living room carpet.
Q And therefore you had no notes, either from the original form or this transcribed form, when you testified yesterday about your belief as to the existence or nonexistence of damp spots and foreign material on the MacDonald rug?
A No, I had no notes at that time.
Q And is it fair to say that your recollection was probably fuller and more accurate on Febru-ary the 17th and 18th than it was yesterday and today as to the details of what you ob-served in that house?
A Yes, it is fair to say that, sir.
Q Now after you finished these various--strike that please--could you tell us why you didn't preserve those yellow notes, other than the fact that you had already given a written state-ment?
A I didn't preserve those written notes mainly because I was the only one that could read them, and that I had imparted everything from those notes that I felt was pertinent and put them in this statement.
Q You had taken out of those notes what you thought was pertinent. Is that right?
A Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q How much did you know about the nature of the investigation at the time you made that extraction?
A The nature of the investigation?
Q Right.
A I knew very little; I've known very little about it since that time. I do not come in contact with the Provost Marshal's Office on a day to day basis.
Q What is your branch?
A Military Police, sir.
Q Did you go to Provost Marshal General's School at Fort Gordon, Georgia?
A I went to the Military Police Officer's Basic--
Q And that was given at Fort Gordon, Georgia?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is part of the Provost Marshal General's Center there. Is that right?
A It is part of the MP School, yes, sir.
Q Right. And it is your best recollection that it is standard practice for military police inves-tigators or any investigating officer to preserve or not preserve original memoranda and notes made contemporaneously with the time of the investigation?
A The function of the duty officer is not a trained investigator. He is merely a supervisor, and anything that he sees that he may think is pertinent as a layman he may see fit to take notes.
Q You weren't here on the scene in the capacity as a layman were you?
A No.
Q You were there as the first officer on the scene and in fact the person in charge of the scene until the CID came in and took charge of the investigation?
A That is correct.
Q And you acted in that capacity by giving certain orders and instructions to other military personnel when they arrived there?
A Yes, I did.
Q So in fact, you were functioning in a capacity first as an officer, and secondly, were rely-ing upon certain training you had in the Military Police Group as to what was necessary to do in a crisis?
A A certain amount of training, but not as extensive as possibly CID.
Q I would not for a moment suggest that you mean to supplant the CID officer. What I'm asking you, sir, is, is it your recollection that in your training as a military police officer you were or were not told that it was important to preserve original notes or memoranda made in the course of any investigation?
A As far as I can recall just offhand I don't recall anything like that, but in view of what I know about it now it would seem certain that they would say something of that nature.
Q And on reflection, it is fair to say that you probably, if you were to do it over again, would not destroy your original notes.
A No, I would not destroy my original notes if I were to do it over again.
Q Did the investigator suggest to you that there was no need to preserve the notes any further?
A No, he did not.
Q Did the investigator ask to see your original notes?
A I don't think he asked to see them. He may have seen them, but I don't know. He didn't ask.
Q Were you reading from them, or looking at them, during the time you were giving Mr. Ellis this formal written statement?
A No. I prepared the statement at my home.
Q Well, what portion of the statement are you referring to that you prepared in your home?
A I prepared the whole statement at my home.
Q When was that?
A I don't recall right now.
Q Was it prior to 1000 hours on February 18th?
A Oh. Yes, it was prior to 1000 hours on February 18th.
Q And did you write it out in longhand?
A Yes, I did.
Q And then what did you do with the longhand statement?
A I showed it to Mr. Ellis who took me around to the secretary who works at CID and I sat down with her and, the portions that she was having a hard time reading I helped her out, and she typed the statement.
Q Did she then basically type this statement from your handwritten notes with you assisting her with some difficult places with regard to handwriting?
A Which notes are you referring to?
Q I am referring to your handwritten statement that you showed to Mr. Ellis and then went to the typist with.
A From the handwritten statement, yes, she was typing it.
Q And did you use your handwritten notes made at the MacDonald house in preparation of your handwritten statement?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q Did you bring the handwritten notes with you to the CID headquarters along with your handwritten statement?
A No, I don't believe I did.
Q You believe you discarded those notes in your home?
A I think so. I'm not sure. I could have destroyed them at the CID, at some later date.
Q But to your recollection, no one ever asked you to do so, to exhibit your handwritten notes made at the crime scene?
A Yes, Captain Somers asked me to produce them at one time.
Q When did Captain Somers ask that of you?
A I'm not--I--I back up on that a little bit. It could have been Captain Thompson, or some-one else. When he interviewed me the first time in reference to the--this matter.
Q And how long ago was that?
A It was a pretty good while ago, three months, somewhere around there.
Q How long were you in Mr. Kalin's house making this phone call you referred to?
A Just a rough guess, two or three minutes.
Q What did you tell Colonel Kriwanek on the telephone?
A I told him that three people had been killed or murdered or something, something to that effect, and that three people were dead, and he asked me for information on who might have done it, and I gave him the description that I gave to you a few minutes ago, and he said that he would be coming right away.
Q Did you give him any other information other than what you have now told us?
A He possibly asked, I'm not sure, it seems that he asked something about CID, were they there, or something of that nature. I don't recall for sure.
Q Did Colonel Kriwanek ask you a great number of questions on the telephone?
A No, not a great number of questions.
Q Did he ask you if a roadblock had been established?
A No, he did not.
Q Did you tell him, to best of your recollection, that you had given instructions for a road-block or road check?
A I don't know. I think I told him that we had – the law enforcement agencies had been no-tified of the description which was on the air.
Q Well, that's not the same thing as establishing a roadblock or a check at the entrances and exits of Fort Bragg, is it?
A No, it is not.
Q That's the request to law enforcement agencies in the county and in Fayetteville to be on the lookout for persons of the description you called in on your broadcast. Is that right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q But you are uncertain at this time as to whether or not you have ever issued such a statement or order on your own behalf?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Now after you came out of the Kalin's house, what did you do?
A I went back to Captain MacDonald's residence.
Q Did you go in directly from the Kalin house?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now who was in charge of the MacDonald house while you were out making these phone calls?
A The ranking man there who would naturally be the--in charge while I am gone.
Q Who is that?
A The patrol supervisor, Sergeant Hagney.
Q Sergeant Hagney. Did you tell Sergeant Hagney you were going next door to make the telephone calls?
A No, I don't believe I did.
Q Where was Sergeant Hagney when you last saw him before you left the MacDonald house to make the phone calls?
A He was standing in the living room off the edge of the carpet on the floor.
Q Now you came directly back to the MacDonald house after making the phone calls in the Kalin house. Are you certain about that?
A Well, I'm not absolutely certain.
Q May I suggest to you that when you left the Kalin house you went not back to the Mac-Donald house but back to your car radio and you put a description of the persons who you were looking for on the air and then you came back to the front door of the MacDonald house?
A That could be possible, yes.
Q As a matter of fact, isn't that pretty close to what you told Captain Douthat, assistant counsel for the accused when he interviewed you in connection with this case?
A I'm not sure, I--I--I told Sergeant Boulware, after I got off the phone with Colonel Kriwa-nek, I believe I gave him the description over the phone. So if I went out to my car to give a description, it would be kind of redundant. That's sort of a--sort of vague.
Q It is possible though that you went to your car after you left the Kalin household?
A It is possible.
Q But then you came back to the front door of the MacDonald house and back into the mas-ter bedroom for the third time?
A Yes, not necessarily back to the master bedroom, but I did come back in. I went back to the master bedroom at some time, but not immediately after I came in.
Q Well, what did you do on this third entry into the MacDonald house before getting back to the master bedroom?
A On the third entry into the MacDonald house--on this entry we--I continued just to take these notes and supervise what was gong on.
Q Well, what did that supervision consist of?
A Making sure that no one upset--upset anything in the area.
Q And were there MPs in the living room when you came back this third time?
A Yes, there was.
Q What were they doing?
A They were standing near the edge of the carpet on the floor.
Q Well, they hadn't moved from where you had last seen them when you went out to make the phone call at the Kalin house?
A They may have moved.
Q So they hadn't changed their position significantly?
A No.
Q Well, then what instructions was necessary for you to give them if they had apparently already been obeying your instruction of staying off the rug?
A One more time please.
Q What did you tell them to do when you came back in and found that they were roughly in the same position where you had left them?
A I told them to stay where they are, don't touch anything, don't upset anything. I said that several times.
Q Why was it necessary to repeat an instruction you had given approximately three minutes before to men who apparently understood it and conformed to it?
A I want to make sure that everybody heard and understood.
Q Well, were there many people there at that time?
A How many?
Q I don't know, I wasn't there. You tell us.
A There was some people there, yes.
Q Well, how many?
A I don't know.
Q Well, you said that loud enough so everybody could hear it didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Because there was men not only in the living room. There were men in the other rooms and the master bedroom that you could observe when you came back in on this third occasion.
A As far as men in the two children's bedrooms, I don't recall ever seeing anyone going into the children's bedrooms.
Q How many military persons would you estimate were in that house when you came back on this third occasion?
A I would estimate somewhere around seven.
Q How many were in the living room?
A I would say five.
Q Which would leave Tevere and Mica in the bedroom with Captain MacDonald?
A Yes.
Q What were the five MPs doing in the living room?
A Well, they weren't doing anything at that time. They had finished up whatever work they had been doing, and were standing on the floor, on the wood floor next to the carpet.
Q What had they been doing when you went out to make the phone call in the Kalin house?
A I don't recall.
Q But they were in the living room?
A These specific individuals, I don't know whether they were in the living room or not for sure. There were some people in the living room when I went out.
Q You do remember that Sergeant Hagney was in the living room when you went out?
A I believe he was.
Q What do you mean you believe he was?
A I seem to remember turning to him and saying something to him.
Q Like what?
A I don't recall.
Q Well, did you tell me a few minutes ago that when you left the scene you gave instruc-tions to Sergeant Hagney, or you left with the impression that Sergeant Hagney was there and he would take charge while you were gone?
A Yes, I did say that.
Q Yes, well, now you are saying you are uncertain as to whether Sergeant Hagney was in the, actually in the living room when you left to go to the Kalin house.
A I said that I turned and said something to him. I recall seeing him.
Q Well, then you are certain that Sergeant Hagney was there in the living room?
A Yes.
Q You are certain about that?
A Yes, at this particular time, yes.
Q Now who else was there besides Sergeant Hagney when you left there?
A The only other person I recall being there, I think, at this time is Sergeant Caldwell.
Q Then when you came back there were now at least five men in the living room?
A Yes, I would say, estimated.
Q Right. And it would appear to you that there was some people there when you came back whom you had not observed when you went out to make the phone call at the Kalin house?
A I couldn't say that for sure.
Q I'm not expecting you to say for sure, but aren't you under the impression that when you came back there were more people than when you left in that living room?
A No, I am not under that impression.
Q Isn't that the reason that when you came back up you started again to tell these men about being careful and not to touch anything because you observed people you were not sure you had given that instruction to before?
A No, that's not the reason.
Q Well, why was it necessary for you to repeat an instruction you had given three minutes earlier?
CPT SOMERS: I object. He's answered that question now three times.
MR. SEGAL: And I have not got, I believe, an adequate answer, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: I'd like to instruct the witness to answer the questions raised by counsel for either the government or the defense as accurately and succinctly as possible. It is recog-nized that you may not be able to remember all the exact details, but within your memory try to answer these questions as simply as you can and as accurately. The objection itself is overruled, but I am sympathetic to the fact that your questions are not direct to the an-swers in some instances. I believe that perhaps you can be a little bit more succinct and more clear in your answers to the questions of either counsel. You may continue.
Q My specific question, Lieutenant Paulk, is why did you believe it was necessary to reiter-ate the order about not touching the crime scene when you came back to the MacDonald house?
A I think that the reason that I mentioned that again was because of just general military training; to coordinate, give people the information, keep the troops informed, this type of--this type of stuff, and I just think I just said it just to make sure that everybody was still up to date on what was going on.
Q It couldn't have been that you were a little panicky about the behavior of all these military policemen whom you could not fathom what they were doing at that time?
A Panicky would not be a good word. Concern--I am sure I was concerned. Anyone would have been concerned.
Q May I suggest to you that you were then upset about the presence of all these men whose activities at that time you could not justify or account for as being valuable inside the MacDonald house?
COLONEL ROCK: Counsel, I believe the witness has already answered the question as to why he addressed the men in that fashion. I see no real point with continuing with that line of questioning at this time.
Q Do you recall when you came out the Kalin house talking to someone about the failure of the ambulances to arrive promptly at the scene at 544 Castle Drive?
A Yes, I believe I did talk to someone.
Q Do you know who that was?
A No, I don't recall at this time.
Q Was that one of the neighbors or was it one of the military policemen that was there?
A I'm certain it was one of the military policemen. I just don't remember which one it was.
Q What was the nature of the discussion about the ambulances?
A I was interested in getting some medical help for Captain MacDonald and it seemed to be some delay in getting there, and I told someone to go to the intersection of Honeycutt and Lucas and lead these people into the housing area.
Q And according to your statement that was military policemen Williams, was it not?
A Yes, I believe so. I believe it was Williams. I don't know whether he was the one I was having the discussion with.
Q Now when you went back ultimately to the master bedroom on this third occasion, is that when you observed Specialist Tevere trying to use the telephone at the MacDonald house?
A I don't remember which occasion Tevere, which time I was in the bedroom. I was in the bedroom a number of times, more than three times, and I don't remember which occasion Tevere attempted to use the telephone.
Q Now the telephone, you testified, was dangling at the end of its wire and not on the cra-dle when you first observed it. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Tevere apparently picked it up and attempted to get a dial tone or to make a call. Is that also correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q But he was not able to do so, and what did he do with the telephone receiver?
A As I recall he picked up the receiver, using his index finger and his thumb and placed it back on the receiver.
Q Did he attempt to dial a number?
A Yes he did.
Q Did he use his hand or his finger for that?
A Yes, he did use his finger.
Q That is opposed to taking a pencil and inserting that in the hole as to dial with?
A Yes, he used his finger.
Q Now when you last saw the master bedroom, the telephone, what position was the tele-phone, what position was the telephone when you last saw it on the morning of the 17th of February?
A I'm not real sure but I believe it was dangling down.
Q Do you know how the phone got off the cradle after Specialist Tevere had placed it there?
A No, I don't.
Q So that as far as you know, some individual whom you do not know, and at what time you do not know, caused the phone to be moved from the cradle to dangle down as it was when you first observed it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you do not know the fashion in which the person picked up the telephone receiver and how she or he handled the receiver in taking it off the cradle and letting it dangle?
A No, I do not.
Q They could have run their hands all over it. Is that correct?
A For all I know, yes, sir.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, are familiar with the term acid or acid head?
A Yes, I am.
Q And what do you understand those terms to mean in general parlance?
A My understanding it means to be a person, or one who consumes drugs.
Q Did you have occasion to hear that phrase, acid head in the MacDonald house on the morning of February 17th 1970?
A Yes, I did hear that term.
Q And from whom did you hear it?
A I heard it from Captain MacDonald.
Q Was this, as we understand the chronology, you were in the master bedroom on at least three occasions. Do you recall which of those occasions that term, acid head, was men-tioned?
A No, I don't.
Q Can you tell the investigating officer what you heard in regard to acid head?
A I believe Captain MacDonald's words were something--“I'm going to kill those God-damned acid heads, and I'm not going to help them anymore,” or something to that effect.
Q Was that said to Captain MacDonald when one of the military policemen was trying to as-sist him prior to the arrival of medical personnel?
A Possibly, I don't recall for sure.
Q Did you ask what the relevance of that statement was or make any inquiry about that statement?
A Did I ask Captain MacDonald personally?
Q Yes, sir?
A No.
Q Did you ask the MPs what the relevance of that was?
A No, I think I understood the relevance of it.
Q You understood it based on what information?
A The description--I don't know exactly what information but the--
Q Let me ask you this, Lieutenant Paulk. What did you understand the significance of Cap-tain MacDonald's statement to be about these acid heads?
A From his statement it just seemed to me he was angry enough that a person, or persons--he was angry enough at persons unknown that he would like to kill the, and apparently that he, in view of the description and everything that he must have been referring to the assail-ants.
Q Did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on February 17th at Womack Army Hos-pital?
A Yes, I did.
Q About how long--or rather, what time was that approximately?
A It was somewhere around 0700 or 0630, somewhere in that area.
Q And what was the circumstances that brought you to the hospital to see Captain Mac-Donald?
A Colonel Kriwanek asked me to see if I could obtain any--any pertinent information as to the--as to the evidence or descriptions or anything of that nature of possible suspects.
Q And what did you do when you got to the hospital?
A I asked, I believe, Captain or Major Jacobson if I could see the Captain.
Q And Jacobson was a medical, in fact, he's medical doctor stationed at the hospital, is he not?
A I believe he is.
Q And why did you ask Doctor Jacobson for permission to see Captain MacDonald?
A I didn't feel like it would be – it would be kind of rude to just walk in.
Q What I really was trying to fathom as to why Doctor Jacobson as opposed to any other physician at the hospital. Were you given to understand that he was the physician in charge of treating Captain MacDonald at that time?
A I believe a nurse referred me to him at this time and he was the only doctor in that area, what I assumed to be a doctor.
Q And did he give you permission to talk to Captain MacDonald?
A I believe he told the nurse it would be all right.
Q You didn't actually speak to him yourself?
A No, I don't believe so, sir.
Q Then you went to Captain MacDonald's room and what happened then?
A I questioned Captain MacDonald as to what he did, who he saw, who he had treated re-cently, and asked him if there was anything he might be able to give me that may help us to find the assailants.
Q Then you were conducting a portion of the investigation of this case then at that time, is that right?
A At this time I suppose you could say that, sir.
Q Well, you were sent to the hospital for the purpose of getting these details about possible suspects including some of the patients of Doctor, Captain MacDonald?
A That's true, sir.
Q And you were in fact preparing a fact sheet of this information you received from Captain MacDonald and turned it over to the criminal investigators in this case?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q Did you retain a copy of that?
A No, sir. There were a number of copies made and they were all given to the CID.
Q To whom did you turn them over?
A I believe I gave them to the secretary in the Operations Division of the CID.
Q But you, yourself, do not have a copy of that fact sheet?
A I don't.
Q Have you seen that at anytime since you turned it in to that secretary?
A I have not.
Q Did you observe Captain MacDonald's condition at the time you were talking to him?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And what was your observation as to what his condition was?
A He seemed to be a little bit better but he was still upset, what I considered to be upset.
Q Did he appear to you to be in pain or not?
A Yes, he did appear to be in pain.
Q Did he appear to be in small pain or great pain?
A He appeared to be in great pain.
Q As a matter of fact that's exactly the phrase you used when you gave this written state-ment on February 18th, 1970, to the CID, and I refer your attention to the fourth line from the bottom of page two of your statement.
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are not wavering from your opinion held at that time when you saw Captain Mac-Donald in the hospital you were of the opinion, as a layman, of course, that Captain MacDon-ald was in great pain?
A No, I--I wasn't wavering.
Q Would you at this time be in a position to recall the various pieces of information that you recorded on that fact sheet you turned in to the CID?
A One name stands out particularly, because this man was apprehended.
Q You mean the name of a suspect that was given to you by Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q What is that name?
A The man's name was Badger. I believe he was assigned to the 6th or 7th Special Forces.
Q Are you saying that you received other names from Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, I did.
Q But at this time you do not have any special recollection of those names?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you receive any information about height, weight, additional detailed description?
A Yes, I believe I got the information about the hat the girl was wearing.
MR. SEGAL: May it please the inquiry officer. At this time I would call upon the government to make available a copy of that statement in view of the fact that Lieutenant Paulk, I think, would be best examined as to the statement Captain MacDonald made with the aid of that document.
COLONEL ROCK: Is counsel for the government prepared at this time to produce that docu-ment? If not, what sort of a delay would be necessary to make the document available?
CPT SOMERS: He is not currently prepared to produce this document, and I cannot estimate accurately how long it will take. I assume it could be done inside an hour.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I don't purpose that we wait at this point. I have another short line of questioning and then we could excuse this witness subject to recall. However, we could break now if that would be agreeable to you, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: That is acceptable. Affirmative. The counsel for the government will pro-duce that document at a convenient time tomorrow.
CPT SOMERS: Counsel for the government will attempt to do so, sir.
MR. SEGAL: May I suggest, sir, it might be appropriate to take a short recess and then we can reconvene. I can't think we would have a need for Lieutenant Paulk for more than fif-teen minutes, unless Captain Somers has some re-cross, and he may want to start on anoth-er witness after the break.
COLONEL ROCK: Fine, we will recess for ten minutes.
(The hearing recessed at 1515 hours, 7 July 1970.)
(The hearing opened at 1530 hours, 7 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The investigation will open. All parties that were present at the time of recess are currently present.
The Witness is reminded again that he is under oath. Proceed, counsel.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, did you take notice in the living room of the MacDonald house of a stereo system there?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And was there any particular reason why you happened to notice that?
A I have one of the same brand. My father used to be affiliated with the same company.
Q And was there anything unusual about the placement of that system or where it was or anything that struck you as being out of the ordinary?
A No, sir.
Q Was it on or off at the time you were in the MacDonald house?
A To the best of my knowledge, of course, you know it could have possibly been on, but I didn't see any power light or any turn table turning or anything of that nature.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk after you observed Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald in the master bedroom, you went to the doorway of the front bedroom and observed the older Mac-Donald child. Is that right?
A This is speaking of the first--
Q The first time.
A I assume it was the older child.
Q For the purpose of this question, that is correct. Now would you tell us please how you determined what the condition of that child was at that time?
A I looked in the room from the doorway at the--at the child and didn't see any motion, evi-dence of breathing or anything of that nature.
Q Well, you say you didn't see any evidence of breathing. How far were you, when you were standing in the doorway from where the child was?
A I'd estimate about seven or eight feet.
Q And, of course, what lights were on in that front bedroom?
A There were none on in that particular bedroom.
Q None at all?
A That's correct, sir.
Q How did you determine whether that child had any pulse at all at that time?
A I did not touch the child, sir.
Q You did not come any closer than the doorway?
A That's correct, sir.
Q How were you able to determine whether or not medical aid if rendered the child at that time might have been of some assistance to the child?
A Well, at the time I was checking for victims to see if any were alive that I could tell right off the bat that they were alive, if I could help them. And during this checking time, one of the MPs checked the children.
Q Well, when did an MP check the children?
A I don't know the exact time. It was initially, right off.
Q Are you telling us that when you came into the MacDonald house, you went down from the--the rear entrance, which is the utility room, you went down to the next bedroom. Is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And you passed both the front bedroom and the rear bedroom on the way to the master bedroom?
A No, I was on my way to the kitchen, on my way to the living room, dining room.
Q But when you first came in, didn't you--when you came out of the master bedroom and went down the hall, did you see any MPs in either the front or rear bedroom?
A No.
Q How did you gather the impression that some MP had checked the children out at a closer distance than yourself the medical condition of either of the children?
A I'm not certain, but I believe I asked Mica at one time or the other, I'm not sure, had any-one checked out the children, and I believe he said that he did.
Q Well, now, if I understood what happened initially in this house--you tried to get in the front door. You weren't able to do so, and then you dispatched or caused to have sent to the rear of the house some of the MPs who had arrived in those first two vehicles. Am I correct in that regard?
A That's correct sir.
Q And you were going to go back to your vehicle to make a radio call to get authority to en-ter the premises?
A That's correct.
Q But you never actually got back to your vehicle because in that brief span of time some-body yelled from the back of the house, they're here, or we found them.
A That's correct, sir.
Q You then, I assume, ran around to the back of the house.
A That's correct, sir.
Q And when you got to the back of this house you went in the same door that--which was the only open door, which was the one in the utility room that the MPs were going in?
A That's correct, sir.
Q So then you came in and when you came in you found how many MPs in the master bed-room?
A As I recall two.
Q That was Mica and Tevere?
A Right, sir.
Q And both of them were kneeling where Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald were?
A Mica was kneeling.
Q And where was Mr. Tevere?
A I don't recall his exact position.
Q He was staring at the two bodies?
A He was in the area.
Q Was there any indication that either of them had been down the hall, made an entry into the front bedroom and then an entry into the rear bedroom and then back in the master bed-room with a report on the condition of those persons before you were able to get into the house?
A There was no indication at this.
Q Well, what caused you to believe that they had checked the condition of those persons in the front and rear bedrooms?
A After I went down and checked the two bedrooms and continued to the kitchen looking for other victims, I came back to the master bedroom and I asked someone in that bedroom, did you check out the children, or, did anyone check out the children.
Q And what did this someone say?
A I believe Mica said he did.
Q But you were the first person, to the best of your knowledge, who left the master bed-room and went down the hall toward the living room.
A To the best of my knowledge, yes, I was.
Q And so, as a matter of fact, at that time, you didn't believe that either of those two MPs had checked out the other rooms, did you?
A As I was moving down the hall?
Q Yes.
A Not at that time.
Q You were under the impression that you were the first of the military police to go down that part of the house?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Well, believing that you were the first military policemen to go into that part of the house, what caused you to make a determination as to whether either of those children were living without going into the room and checking them at some closer distance than six or seven feet?
A What caused me to make that determination?
Q That is right, sir.
A The fact the only--the only thing I can say there was--I can't say that I was absolutely sure that they were dead, but the main thing that contributed to my belief that they were dead because there was no just--there was just absolutely no movement whatsoever.
Q You would hardly consider that to be the best way of determining whether there was a flicker of life in either of these children by looking at them from six or seven feet in an unlit room though, would you?
A No, I wouldn't consider that the best way.
Q The best way would have been to at least approach the bodies in the bed and perhaps check for a heartbeat at close distance and pulse beat at close distance?
A I would say that would be the best way.
Q When you went back to the master bedroom and you asked Mr. Mica and Mr. Tevere whether they had checked out the children--is that right?
A I asked someone in the room, yes.
Q Well, either one of those two. Is that right?
A I don't know whether it was those two or not. I don't recall the exact number of personnel that were in the bedroom at that time.
Q Well, at that point who else was around the scene besides those two, yourself, and the other two MPs in the other vehicle?
A I don't know who was in the bedroom at that time exactly by name. This was a few se-conds afterwards and other personnel had time to come.
Q From that point on did a number of military police vehicles and ambulances arrive in the course of the next twenty minutes to half an hour?
A I don't know, I didn't get outside that much to see.
Q Well, you heard vehicles coming up, I assume, did you not?
A No, I didn't hear any. I noticed some more personnel in the area.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, do have any idea when the ambulances arrived at the MacDonald house on February 17th?
A No, I don't have any idea exactly, exactly what time. I remember the medical personal coming through the front door after the front door was opened.
Q And the front door was opened about how long after you arrived on the scene?
A A very short time. Maybe a minute.
Q Well, is it fair to say that at least fifteen minutes after you arrived there that--more than fifteen minutes the ambulances arrived?
A No, I don't think it would be fair to say that.
Q Well, I was under the impression before that you said that it was not more than fifteen minutes after you had been there that you made this additional calls for the CID and for--check on where the ambulances were, calling Sergeant Boulware.
A As I said before, I didn't hear any vehicles or anything, and I--I couldn't, couldn't say ex-actly what time the ambulances arrived.
COLONEL ROCK: Lieutenant Paulk you don't have to say exactly, but in your own common judgment can you give an estimate of appropriately how long after you arrived?
A Sir, it would be hard for me to do so since I was in the house. I wouldn't want to give misinformation.
COLONEL ROCK: Well, we fully appreciate that fact, but would you say it was roughly fifteen minutes afterwards that you saw the medical attendants, or half an hour, an hour, two hours? Try to place these questions into some context.
A I would say, I would say it possibly, I guess it was around fifteen minutes.
Q Fifteen?
A I guess it would have been around fifteen minutes.
Q Did you see Captain MacDonald being carried out by the medical personnel?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And did you observe what, if anything, Captain MacDonald was doing when he was being carried out?
A Yes, he was trying to, trying to sit up on the stretcher, sir.
Q And did you hear what he was saying about why he was trying to get up or what he wanted to do when he got up?
A I sort of vaguely recall something, but I hesitate to say it since it was so vague. He--
he--I think he was asking about his kids.
MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further at this time, subject to the witness being recalled when we have available the fact sheet that he prepared which could tomorrow, or anytime at the conveniences of the court and the government.
COLONEL ROCK: Redirect by the government?
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, did you at any time prevent placing the roadblocks?
A No.
Q You did not. Now regarding your testimony concerning the absence of foreign materials on the rug in the living room, is that testimony true to best of your knowledge?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now I understand that you have no notes on this, but nonetheless you are stating it as true testimony?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now you've described some of the things you saw in this house. Would you come over here, please?
A Yes, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Let the record reflect that the witness is standing adjacent to the exhibit of the scene of the crime, Government Exhibit 1.
Q I'm thinking it would be interesting to the investigating officer if you would tell us what you saw in the southeast section of the living room, the first time you looked.
A In this particular area over here, the--sofa against this wall.
Q The east wall?
A Yes, and there was an end table around here.
Q In the southeast corner?
A Yes and a coffee table was in front of the sofa overturned at an angle like this.
Q Perhaps 30 degrees pointing toward the middle of the room?
A Well, it wasn't quite pointing toward the middle of the room. I'd say it was pointing to-wards this area.
Q Pointing away from the hall?
A Yes.
Q Did you notice anything near or under that table?
A The thing that is most outstanding was the potted plant that was lying in front of the ta-ble.
Q You saw a potted plant lying in front of the table?
A That's correct.
Q Was it in its pot?
A No.
Q I see. Now how was this table lying? Was it on its top or--
A On its side.
Q I see. What was the appearance of the dining room area? Was it in disarray or--
A It was--it was straight, more or less straight. There was--I didn't notice anything on the floor or anything knocked over.
Q I see. Have your seat please. Now on cross examination you were asked about the re-placement of the telephone receiver in the bedroom.
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember anything, given the opportunity to think about it now, about the change of the position subsequent to that from the receiver on the cradle? Of that receiver.
A I'm not absolutely sure of this, but I think Tevere possibly removed the phone and put it back down.
MR. SEGAL: I would object and move to strike the answer. It is entirely speculative since the witness has already previously testified that he didn't know and would be offering a guess, at best.
COLONEL ROCK: I seem to recall that yesterday there was some evidence that was similar to the evidence he is now giving regarding this telephone matter. I think we had best pursue it a little further to determine what the true effects seem to be. If necessary we can get, per-haps, a copy of the testimony yesterday regarding the telephone.
Q To the best of your recollection--nobody is asking you to state an absolute fact--but to the best of your recollection, what do you think Tevere did with that phone?
A To the best of my recollection I think Tevere removed it and put it down.
Q By down, do you mean dangling?
A Yes.
COLONEL ROCK: This is generally my recollection of what was said yesterday, though I don't recall the specific name. Does counsel for the government recall whether this was generally the testimony given yesterday?
CPT SOMERS: Precisely the testimony given yesterday, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Would counsel for the accused prefer that we attempt to get the record of yesterday to clarify this point?
MR. SEGAL: I don't think that is necessary at this point, sir, but I do think it is desirable to try to establish what basis of the witness's, I suppose, guesstimate. I have no idea whether he is testifying now out of prolonged knowledge, or the recollection of what he saw, what he was told. It seems to be very relevant at this time.
CPT SOMERS: If I may proceed?
COLONEL ROCK: Please. We will attempt to establish that.
Q Your testimony on cross examination regarding this question, you were a little less certain that, in fact you were uncertain how that phone got back down dangling. Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q Why is that? Had your previous statement slipped your mind, or what?
MR. SEGAL: That's objected to suggest the reasons or explanations as to why the witness might or might not be given, sir. I don't think that's a proper question.
COLONEL ROCK: The objection is sustained. Counsel for the government, please rephrase your question.
Q Can you recall – can you tell us why the difference?
A I can know of no other reason, other that that.
Q Other than what?
A That I must have just forgot.
Q Okay. But you are saying now that to the best of your recollection the phone was put back down dangling by Tevere. Is that correct?
A Yes, to the best of my recollection.
CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions of this witness; however, I would request that this witness be retained in the sense that he might be recalled by the government on a broader issue than the one that the defense wishes to speak about at some time subsequent in the investigation that he can add in some way.
COLONEL ROCK: It is my intention that the witness will remain available at our call. However, at this time I think it is appropriate to determine whether counsel for the accused wishes to re-cross.
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, if I may, I will.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, can you tell us when, in terms of sequence of events Specialist Tevere took the phone off the cradle and put it back in a dangling position?
A I think it was when he was trying to use it, and it didn't work, or it wouldn't work for him, so he, to the best of my recollection, left it dangling.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, it my understanding of your testimony given within the last hour, that you saw Mr. Tevere pick up the telephone which was dangling and attempt to get a line, or make a call. Am I right?
A Yes.
Q And that you further, in response to cross examination, said that he attempted to make a dialed call on that phone, and that you further said he used his finger in an attempt to make that call, as opposed to perhaps inserting a pencil in the opening of the telephone dial. Do you recall that?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q And that you then testified, to my recollection, that he then placed the cradle, telephone on its cradle. Do you recall that testimony?
A Yes, sir.
Q I then asked you did you see or did you know from your own personal knowledge and ob-servations how the phone subsequently got off the receiver and was place in a dangling posi-tion. Do you remember my asking you that?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q And do you recall saying to me that you don't, or did not have any personal knowledge or recall as to how the phone got off. Do you recall that also? This afternoon, giving that an-swer.
A Those specific words, yes, sir, I suppose so.
Q And as a matter of fact, don't you recall me saying to you that you wouldn't know if the person who took the phone off the receive, off the cradle, rather, hadn't rubbed his hands over it and rubbed fingerprints on or off it, and you said you did not know whether that had happened. Isn't that right?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Can you tell us how, in the name of heaven, you can now say that oh you remember and give those answers that Mr. Tevere was the one who took it off the cradle and let it dangle again?
A In an effort, in other words, to try and give, to try to give everyone the best information, some things are very vague and--due mainly to the time. I have a vague recollection of see-ing Tevere place the phone on the hook and then letting it dangle. I seem to remember him bending over and putting it down. I hesitated to say that an hour ago because it is vague to me and I would rather not say if it's vague.
Q That's fair enough. Is it correct to say that you are not certain that Specialist Tevere took the phone off the cradle and let it dangle after attempting to make the phone call?
A I'm not absolutely positively certain. I think that, just for some reason or another, I seem to remember him doing that.
Q Aren't you describing to us now that you have an impression that Tevere did this?
A No, I don't think I am describing an impression. I seem to remember Tevere bending over to take special care in placing the receiver back down.
Q And I am asking you, sir, in a case in which a man's life is on trial for murder, whether you will state to this investigating officer that you are certain that you remember Mr. Tevere took the phone off the cradle and let it dangle?
A No, I am not absolutely certain.
Q I did not put the caveat absolutely certain. I'm not sure any of us can be absolutely cer-tain in any event, but with a reasonable degree of certainty can you say in a case where a man's life is on trial, can you say with a reasonable degree of certainty that you remember specifically Mr. Tevere took that phone off and let it dangle again?
A Reasonably, yes, sir, I do remember it.
Q You do remember it. Will you please tell this court then, please, why you then said that as far as you know someone could have wiped their fingerprints all over the phone and let it dangle? Were you expecting at that time to give an answer of absolute certainty as opposed to reasonable certainty?
A With respect to that question, I wasn't in the bedroom all the time, and there could have
--someone else handled it without me seeing--seeing it be handled.
Q The potted plant that you saw on the living room floor--
A Yes, sir.
Q You saw a plant, is that right?
A That or a facsimile.
Q A facsimile. What about the pot that the plant was in?
A I don't recall seeing a pot, sir.
Q Is that what you are saying now? That you saw the contents that is either earth com-pacted or some facsimile thereof, and the flower or green plant material that came out of it?
A Yes, sir, that's--
Q In what position was that?
A The plant was sort of facing in the direction of the--perpendicular to the front door.
Q And also was it--was it upright, on its side?
A It was on its side, sir.
Q On its side. But in no place did you observe the pot or a pot which could reasonably be described as a pot for this plant?
A I don't recall the pot.
Q Would that have been something that you would have wanted to note if you had seen it in the living room?
A Yes, it would have been.
Q The telephone which you say was used by Mr. Tevere to make this phone call, was the receiver dangling on the front of the table on which it was on, or on the side of the table?
A At the time I saw it, it was on the front of the table, sir.
Q And when Mr. Tevere took it off the cradle and let it dangle the second time, how did he let it dangle?
A I think he, I believe to the best of my recollection, he put it back down the front.
MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further of this witness. At this time I would request that the in-vestigating officer instruct this witness as to the fact of all witnesses hereafter that until these particular proceedings have concluded, that they are not to discuss their testimony or ask questions about their testimony, or in anyway go into the questions as to what is being said here in this room with any persons other than counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.
COLONEL ROCK: That's precisely what I intend to do, counsel. Does counsel for the govern-ment have any further questions?
CPT SOMERS: Nothing further at this time.
COLONEL ROCK: I have a couple questions of the witness.
Questions by COLONEL ROCK:
Q Did Captain MacDonald seem to be coherent when he was describing the alleged assail-ants?
A I wasn't in his presence when he was describing the alleged assailants.
Q Was the kitchen door unlocked when you went into the kitchen?
A I did not enter the kitchen, sir. I was in doorway.
Q Did you smell any unusual odors or aromas in any part of the house?
A No, sir.
COLONEL ROCK: Lieutenant Paulk, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person or make any inquiries concerning the testimony which you have given in this hear-ing today with any person other than counsel for either side here present in the courtroom.
Do you understand this?
Witnesses: Yes, sir, I do.
COLONEL ROCK: You are excused subject to recall.
Witness: Thank you, sir.
(The witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)
COLONEL ROCK: Does counsel for the government at this time have any further witnesses to present?
CPT SOMERS: The government counsel does have the next witness.
COLONEL ROCK: Approximately how long do you think your presentation will take at this time?
CPT SOMERS: Perhaps half an hour to forty five minutes.
COLONEL ROCK: Fine. The question which I wish to raise at this time to counsel for the ac-cused is whether or not the counsel for the accused desires to continue on with cross exami-nation following the presentation by the next government witness, or take the normal break and have a go at it in the morning?
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I would be quite willing in this particular case to defer the cross examination until the morning. As a matter of fact I'm not sure whether Captain Somers may be able to even complete his direct examination of this witness until the normal time for adjournment and it would not be a matter of concern to me if that were carried over until tomorrow also.
COLONEL ROCK: Fine, thank you. Captain Somers, I request that if future witnesses for the government have made prior sworn statement, that there be marked as an appropriate gov-ernment exhibit such statement, and handed to the witness in order to refresh the witness' memory and hopefully to expedite these proceedings. Are you prepared to so do with the next government witness?
CPT SOMERS: I am, sir, but I am not clear now whether you wish to proceed with the direct examination or whether you wish to defer it until tomorrow.
COLONEL ROCK: No, I wish to proceed with the direct examination of the next witness. We are ready now for the next witness.
MR. SEGAL: I am embarrassed, but there is an important long distance phone call that's just come into the office. May we have a three minute recess so I can receive that call?
COLONEL ROCK: We will recess for five minutes.
(The hearing recessed at 1608 hours, 7 July 1970.)
(The hearing reopened at 1615 hours, 7 July 1970.)
COLONEL ROCK: The investigation will come to order. The principals who were here at the time of the recess are currently present. Counsel for the government will now introduce his next witness.
CPT SOMERS: The Government calls Specialist Kenneth Mica.
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