December 27, 1981: FBI SA Raymond Madden's interview of
Ted Gunderson and Prince Beasley
Note: Spelling, punctuation and grammar preserved
Note from Christina Masewicz: The following information was taken from July 12, 1984: Aff #2 of FBI SA Raymond Madden, Jr. "On Sunday, December 27, 1981, in the presence of Special Agent Victor P. Holdren, Ted L. Gunderson, Private Investigator, Los Angeles, CA, and Prince E. Beasley, retired Fayetteville, N.C., police detective, voluntarily appeared at the Raleigh Resident Agency of the FBI, and consented to be interviewed regarding the Jeffrey R. MacDonald murder case at Fort Bragg, N.C., on February 16-17, 1970. They were both informed that the interview to be conducted was to be tape recorded and it should be noted that Gunderson also, on his own equipment, tape recorded the interview."
MADDEN: Testing, testing, testing. One, two, three, four five. Testing, testing, testing, one, two, three, four, five. One, two, three, four, five
The interview is about to begin. Speaking is Special Agent, uh, Special Agent RAYMOND MADDEN, JR. It is Sunday, December 27th, and the time is approximately 10:21 A.M. The interview to take place will be with Mr. TED L. GUNDERSON, who is accompanied by PRINCE E. BEASLEY. The interview is being conducted at the Raleigh, North Carolina, Office of the FBI. Also present during the interview is Special Agent VICTOR P. HOLDREN.
Mr. GUNDERSON has requested he be interviewed regarding his investigation and subsequent report regarding the MACDONALD case. The interview is being tape recorded by both Special Agent RAYMOND MADDEN, JR., and Mr. GUNDERSON.
Mr. GUNDERSON, would you please identify yourself and your current occupation?
GUNDERSON: Uh, TED L. GUNDERSON, I'm presently employed as a Security Consultant and a private investigator from Los Angeles, California.
MADDEN: Uh, did you investigate and/or have knowledge of the MACDONALD case?
GUNDERSON: I did.
MADDEN: Did you interview HELENA STOECKLEY?
GUNDERSON: I have, several times.
MADDEN: How many times did you interview STOECKLEY, and where did the interviews take place?
GUNDERSON: Uh, first of all we interviewed her, I say we, because PRINCE BEASLEY was with me every instance when we talked to her, at Los Angeles, California, well first of all I have to go back to January, 1980. I talked to her, uh, by phone in, uh, was it Greenville?
BEASLEY: Uh huh.
GUNDERSON: South Carolina, when I was out here initially to investigate the MACDONALD murders. Uh, I subsequently talked to her in, uh, Los Angeles, California, in, uh, October, 1980, and she returned to Los Angeles in December, 1980, and in each instance we spent, PRINCE BEASLEY and I spent probably five to six days on both trips, I don't have the exact dates. Uh, we also returned after the second trip, both PRINCE BEASLEY and HELENA STOECKLEY and I returned back to North Carolina, and we visited the crime scene search, so I was with her, of course, during that period, and then, uh, we took her down to South Carolina, at her request, rented a station wagon, drove her down there with her personal possessions, and I helped move her into her trailer camp. I've also talked to HELENA STOECKLEY on several occasions by phone.
MADDEN: Uh, did she furnish signed statements, uh, from her interviews, uh, showing her signatures?
MADDEN: Uh, how long, uh, did these interviews take?
GUNDERSON: Um, well, let's see. Uh, the first signed statement, uh, it's hard to say because we spent about a day and a half, when she came back in October, 1980, we spent about a day and a half talking to her before she would agree to, uh, give us a statement. And then, uh, we started, she started talking, as I recall, around nine o'clock, nine, nine to ten o'clock one evening, and I think we finished up with a statement from her around two or three in the morning. And, uh, we took the, she started to talk about the case so I felt rather than, even though it was late, rather than, uh, discontinue the interview and picking up the next day, I felt it was best to gone on through, into the night, take a statement from her on this occasion, and, uh, have it signed, and then the next day, when I looked the statement over it was rather disjointed so I retyped it reorganized it, and uh, she signed it, a second statement that next day. And when you say how long did it take, well that's difficult to say, because, uh, we were with HELENA for five, six straight days, and the only time we didn't talk to her was when we were all sleeping.
MADDEN: O.K., when you, is this the first trip -
GUNDERSON: This is the first trip, October, 1980.
MADDEN: That she made to California?
MADDEN: And she was there for approximately how many days?
GUNDERSON: Well, I'd say, I don't have the exact dates, five or six days, I would say.
MADDEN: And during this period of time, uh, you and Mr. BEASLEY, uh, accompanied her practically all the time
GUNDERSON: We were with her the whole, just about the whole time except when we were all sleeping, yes, we, we were talking about the case almost continuously. Of course you know how difficult the case is and how involved it is.
MADDEN: You're talking about that you accompanied her uh, from early in the morning until late evening hours or possibly early morning hours
GUNDERSON: It wasn't early in the morning sometimes. Sometimes it was usually late in the mornings, cause she liked to sleep in. But we, we, whenever she was available, whenever she felt like talking, we were there to talk to her, I'll put it that way.
MADDEN: So that you and Mr. BEASLEY were continuously in her company for four or five days? The first trip to California?
GUNDERSON: Whatever, I said five or six. It could have been five or six.
MADDEN: Five or six days.
GUNDERSON: I don't have the exact dates.
MADDEN: Uh, you did obtain a signed statement from her during her first trip to California, which was approximately when?
GUNDERSON: October, 1980.
MADDEN: She did again return, uh, to California, uh, at a subsequent time. Do you recall when she returned?
GUNDERSON: Well before you go on to the, uh, December trip back there, we also took a, uh, I took a statement from her on her drug habits, uh, on this October trip also, as I recall.
MADDEN: O.K. Uh when she returned to California, later that year, uh in December, I believe, 1980, uh, she was in California for how long?
GUNDERSON: About five or six days again, I'd say.
MADDEN: And during this period of time, again she was, uh, accompanied by you and/or PRINCE BEASLEY, uh, practically continuously the whole time?
GUNDERSON: Right, same situation. Whenever, whenever she felt like talking, we'd talk to her. When she didn't feel like talking, we'd let her go home and go to bed or do her thing, whatever she wanted to do. We didn't pressure her or push her at all.
MADDEN: Uh, but you do say that you were with her continuously from early morning hours until late evening hours or possibly the uh early morning hours of the next day?
GUNDERSON: We were with her, now you can't say, you can't say early morning hours every time, because like I say, I already mentioned, she liked to sleep in, and we were with her whenever she was available to be interviewed. Whenever she felt like being interviewed.
MADDEN: In the December trip, uh, did she again furnish you with a signed statement?
GUNDERSON: She did.
MADDEN: Uh, was this signed statement, uh, taken, uh, orally and recorded, uh, on a tape recording machine, or was it a signed statement that you prepared and had her sign?
GUNDERSON: This signed statement, uh, again let's go back to October. When she was there in October, she refused to go on a tape recorder. So therefore, I basically prepared that statement, based on information she gave me, and then she read it, of course, and said it was, uh, accurate, and she signed it. In December, uh, she felt a little more comfortable, obviously with me, and uh, so she uh agreed to go on a tape recorder, and it was in Dec, the December interview, uh, that uh, she went on a tape recorder. Yes, and I have that tape recorder in my office right now. We also, we, we then reduced that recording to the form of a signed statement which is a fifty-three page, uh, document, and she read it, initialed each page, and said that it was accurate.
MADDEN: During the interviews that you conducted, uh, with her, did you maintain, uh, the originals of her statements, and would you make copies of the original, uh, statements available to the FBI?
GUNDERSON: The originals of her statements?
GUNDERSON: Uh, the original of her statement is the typed, typed document.
MADDEN: Yes, and do you have the originals showing her signature?
GUNDERSON: Uh huh, oh yeah, sure.
MADDEN: And would you make those original, originals or copies available to the FBI?
GUNDERSON: Sure, I'll be glad to make them available.
GUNDERSON: No problem on that.
MADDEN: During the interviews of STOECKLEY, uh, did you maintain interview logs and will you provide the originals and/or copies to the FBI?
GUNDERSON: I did not interview, uh make the interview log.
MADDEN: Is there any particular reason why you did not make -
GUNDERSON: Just didn't do it, I didn't think it was necessary.
MADDEN: Oh, you talking with her for long hours at a time, uh, but you didn't feel it was necessary-
MADDEN: - to maintain some type of log indicating how long she was with you and uh being interviewed?
GUNDERSON: That's right, I didn't feel it was necessary. She did everything voluntarily and I didn't think it was necessary to make an interview log.
GUNDERSON: Extremely cooperative, I might add.
MADDEN: Prior to, uh, interviewing, uh, STOECKLEY, uh, exactly, uh, what did you tell her?
GUNDERSON: Well that's hard to say, because the first time in October we talked to her, you know, it was a more or less, uh, getting acquainted period, and we talked to her, I talked, well PRINCE knew her very well, of course, but I talked to her like for a day and a half generally about the case, and she wouldn't talk about it. Took about a day and a half for her to break down and agree to talk about it. This is quite a traumatic experience for this young lady.
MADDEN: When you say break down, what do you mean, uh, exactly?
GUNDERSON: Well, for her to become, feel at ease with me. And comfortable with me.
MADDEN: Uh, when she went out to California on the first occasion, and after, uh, a day or so being with you, and finally agreeing to uh, uh, consenting to being interviewed, uh, uh, do you recall exactly what you told her?
GUNDERSON: Now wait a minute. She didn't finally consent to agree to be interviewed, I mean, she, she agreed to be interviewed by me before she left North Carolina.
MADDEN: But when you got her to California, uh, and she came to your office and agreed to, to be interviewed, uh, did you make any, uh, statements to her, exactly do you remember, uh, what you told her at the time?
GUNDERSON: No, I just, I don't remember exactly what I told her. Basically I said, uh, uh, you know that I thought that she should tell us everything she knows, that, uh, she's a critical witness to this case. I reminded her, I'm sure, again I'm, this is just basically, I'm not sure that I'm accurate on these statements. I reminded her of the, uh, you know, we reviewed the case, and I reminded her of the fact she'd told a number of other people that she was there, she thought she was there and that she'd changed her mind. We just generally talked about the case. It was, like I said, it was a getting, uh, acquainted period.
MADDEN: Uh, prior to conducting uh any official type interviews with her, uh, did you ever make her any promises or agreements with her to uh get her to talk with you?
GUNDERSON: Uh, I never made any promises or agreements, but I did tell her, and that's a good point, I did tell her that, uh, I realized that there's a possibility if she did talk that her life could be endangered, and that I agreed, uh, if she so desired to, uh, have her come to California, to try to begin a new life, to seek employment for her and so forth. I told her that I would not give her any money, uh, or make any promises, and I have that in the statement, if you read the statement, that no threats or promises were made to get me to make this statement. But I did tell her that we would do every, because of the possibility that her life could endangered, we'd do everything we could to start a new life for her in California, if she wanted to leave North Carolina.
MADDEN: Uh, when you say her life would be endangered, what, uh, specifically do you mean by that?
GUNDERSON: Well, I felt that, uh, based on what I had, uh, obtained from a review of the case, uh, that's if a, the group of people uh had entered the MACDONALD house, this is the MACDONALD version of the case, of course. That if that was true, I felt that her life would be definitely be in danger, if she talked.
MADDEN: Did you make her any specific promises other than that you would attempt to, uh, find her housing and/or employment, uh, in California, or elsewhere?
GUNDERSON: At what stage?
MADDEN: Uh during any stage or during any part, uh, during any uh, time you interviewed her?
GUNDERSON: Now you're talking about the beginning of October, that day or so right now, is that right?
MADDEN: That's correct.
GUNDERSON: Up to the first day
MADDEN: Prior to any, uh, uh official interviews or any time that uh she was in your company in order to get her to cooperate with you, did you make any statements other than, to her any statements other than, uh, that you would attempt to find her housing and/or employment in California?
GUNDERSON: You're talking about before the first statement in October, right, at this point, right?
MADDEN: At that point.
GUNDERSON: No, I made no other, no other, uh, promises to her.
MADDEN: How about, uh, in December of 1980, uh, when you interviewed her again, did you, uh,
GUNDERSON: I reiterated the same, uh, information to her, that I would help her start a new life in California if she so desired. Of course, at that point, in December, we had the signed statement and confession from October, which implicated uh, a sex, drug oriented Satanic Cult, in which HELENA STOECKLEY, of which HELENA STOECKLEY was a member. So there was no question about her life being in danger at that point. And, uh, again I reiterated to her that I'd be more than happy uh, before the second statement, be more than, uh, the second confession of the crime, because there were some statement, a statement on her drug habits, as you recall
GUNDERSON: Be more than happy to start a new life for her.
MADDEN: Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, what did, uh, you inform, uh, HELENA about Doctor MACDONALD's current legal situation?
GUNDERSON: What did I inform him, all I could say, I don't remember what, exactly what I told her, uh, as far as his legal situation was concerned, but, uh, at that point the case was, uh, under appeal to the Fourth Circuit, and uh, the case had, uh, the original conviction had been reversed by the Fourth Circuit and he was out on bail. So that's all I could have told her. I don't remember what I told her.
MADDEN: Did you, did you ever recall making a statement to her that the Doctor MACDONALD would never be tried again?
GUNDERSON: Uh, I think I, I did tell her that. In my opinion I didn't think he would ever be tried again.
MADDEN: That was in your opinion?
GUNDERSON: In my opinion, right. I could never make that statement because I'm not in a position to say he'll never be tried again. I didn't think he would based on my, uh, experience in this area.
MADDEN: But you do recall, uh, stating to her that either in your opinion or otherwise, that Doctor MACDONALD, uh, uh, could or would never be tried again, uh, uh, for the murder of his wife and children?
GUNDERSON: I, uh, I said I didn't think he would ever be tried again, because, uh, of the Statute of Limitations, uh, has run on the case, as you know, and, uh, also I didn't think he'd be tried because I, I'd have to say that, uh, you know, the case has been tried already.
MADDEN: Uh did you inform her, or did you state to her, in your opinion or otherwise that the Statute of Limitations had expired, uh, regarding possible uh, further prosecution of Doctor MACDONALD?
GUNDERSON: That's right.
MADDEN: Can you tell me, or explain, uh, how you arrived at this conclusion?
GUNDERSON: Uh, Mr. BERNIE SEGAL told me this. Mr. BERNIE SEGAL is Doctor MACDONALD's attorney.
MADDEN: Now, Mr. SEGAL informed you of this, uh, and it's, uh, you're accepting this purely on his legal advice and opinion?
GUNDERSON: That's right, uh huh. That's right. He's been with the case longer than anybody. He and Mr. BLACKBURN, Mr. MURTAGH, I believe.
MADDEN: Uh, did you, at any time, tell HELENA uh that she could never be prosecuted, uh, for her alleged involvement, uh, in the MACDONALD case?
GUNDERSON: I told her that, in my opinion, uh, I didn't think she could be prosecuted for the murders because they occurred on a government reservation and at that time there was a five year Statute of Limitations. Yes.
MADDEN: When you refer to a five year Statute of Limitations, uh, does that apply to a capital crime?
GUNDERSON: Yes, it did at that time, it doesn't anymore.
MADDEN: Is that in your opinion or is that Mr. SEGAL's opinion.
GUNDERSON: That's what I (buzzing sound on tape)
MADDEN: Uh at this time we're going to discontinue the interview, uh, for a second and uh, replace a tape, uh, in Mr. GUNDERSON's tape recording machine.
MADDEN: Uh, we are, uh, continuing the interview now, and uh, would you please respond to the previous question.
GUNDERSON: Give me that question again, will you please?
MADDEN: Uh, was this your opinion that, uh, she could, uh, or I'm sorry, let's begin that again. Uh, was this your opinion that uh she could not be tried for a capital crime?
GUNDERSON: No, this was not my opinion. This was the opinion of, uh, of uh Mr. SEGAL again, in that, uh, in the 1970's, uh, I've been informed that, uh, they abolished capital punishment at the federal level for crime on a government reservation, therefore, the next most severe uh punishment reverted back to life imprisonment, and there was a five year Statute of Limitations at that time on, uh, on this matter. I've been told that. And I told HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, that based on information that had been provided to me, that, uh, the Statute of Limitations on the murder had run.
MADDEN: Uh, did you consider any of the interviews with HELENA to be coercive or conducted in, uh, a duress type manner?
GUNDERSON: You talking about my interviews?
GUNDERSON: Absolutely not.
MADDEN: Uh, in your investigation, specifically, uh, the confessions that you obtained uh from HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, she stated to you that she was present but did not participate in the MACDONALD murders on 2/16-17/1970. Who exactly did she name as accompanying her to the MACDONALD residence and committing the murders? Would you please state the names of the individuals.
GUNDERSON: Now if you'll, would you like to, you don't need to cut it off, but uh, now we have to go to the report and have, so I'll be accurate, I have to go to my report. If you want to cut it off for that purpose we can.
MADDEN: That's fine. At, uh, this point and time we will be, uh, discontinuing the tape temporarily.
MADDEN: We are, uh, continuing now with the interview. Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, would you please name, uh, the individuals, uh, whom HELENA named as accompanying her and being responsible for the MACDONALD murders, uh, on the night of 2/16-17/1970.
GUNDERSON: Well as I mentioned, I, uh, Mr. BEASLEY and I took two signed, actually three signed statements, two of which are recorded in uh reports, and on the October 25, 1980, signed statement, she named BRUCE FOWLER, GREG MITCHELL, DON HARRIS, DWIGHT SMITH, also known as "ZIGZAG" and "SMITTY", ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE, and herself as at the scene of the MACDONALD murders at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, on February 17, 1970.
MADDEN: Uh, I'd like to go over, uh, just one name with you is BRUCE FOWLER, DON MITCHELL, GREG HARRIS, ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE and
GUNDERSON: No, it's BRUCE FOWLER, GREG MITCHELL, DON HARRIS, DWIGHT SMITH, ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE and HELENA.
MADDEN: In your investigation of the MACDONALD case, Mr. GUNDERSON, have you attempted to locate and interview the above, uh, named individuals?
GUNDERSON: Uh, I have not.
MADDEN: Uh, is there any, uh, particular reason that you have not attempted to locate and interview these people, uh, noting that, uh, if they were responsible for a serious felony crime, specifically murder, uh, why have you not made efforts, uh, to locate, uh, and interview these people, as it would seem a logical step in your investigative effort?
GUNDERSON: It is a very logical step, and uh, the reason I have not attempted to locate these people, plus some others who I'll be more than happy to mention to you, is because I can't afford it. Somebody right now owes me in excess of a hundred thousand dollars for this investigation. And, uh, my business is on the verge of bankruptcy, because of this investigation. And when I say that, uh, when I'm, my, the original clients came to me, PHYLLIS HUGHES and STEVE SHAY, PHYLLIS is the wife of a doctor, who knows Doctor MACDONALD, and knows Doctor MACDONALD. STEVE SHAY is a doctor in California, and asked me to investigate this case in November, 1979. I said I would. They gave me a fifteen thousand dollar down payment, and over the next, uh, up until the present time, I've received another fifteen thousand dollars in increments of various denominations. Total payment for this investigation has been thirty thousand dollars. My expenses alone have been in excess of thirty six thousand dollars, and I personally have put in eight hundred, over eight hundred dollars, just in 1980, on the case. So what I'm saying to you is I ran out of money. I can't afford it.
MADDEN: Uh -
GUNDERSON: And I had to pay, uh, uh, I had uh another four hundred dollars in 1980, where I paid other investigators to help on this investigation, other former FBI Agents, by the way. So that's why I have not run these people down. I had hoped to bring the case to uh, to the, uh, uh, to the basis where somebody, uh, could look at what I have done and say hey there needs to he more, some more work done on this matter. Uh, I'd like to also mention that when I came into this investigation, I came in on the basis, uh, I knew nothing about the MACDONALD murders, other than what I'd read in the newspaper. I'm not a prejudice man, I'm a very objective man, having received, uh, my Bureau training and been in the Bureau for twenty seven years, and, as I told my client, uh, the, the first day they were talking to me, I said O.K., fifty-fifty chance he's guilty or innocent. Well whatever the results are, I'm not going to taint them, I'm not going to slant them, I'm going to tell you just the way it is, and I will give you those, the results in a written form, and let the chips fall where they may. Now, uh, in the signed statement in December, she named some other people, would you like to go to that statement?
MADDEN: Uh, that's fine, uh,
GUNDERSON: In addition to these, she named some others that were there.
MADDEN: So, in October, she's naming uh six individuals, is that correct that
GUNDERSON: That's right.
MADDEN: were responsible for the, uh, murders of the, uh -
MADDEN: MACDONALD family, uh, BRUCE FOWLER, DON MITCHELL, GREG HARRIS, ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE and DWIGHT SMITH?
GUNDERSON: No, it's, uh, BRUCE FOWLER, GREG MITCHELL, DON HARRIS, DWIGHT SMITH, ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE and herself.
MADDEN: Six individuals?
MADDEN: Now in December, uh, you reinterviewed her, and at that time, uh, she changed the names of the people, uh, uh, being responsible for the murders?
GUNDERSON: No, she did not change the names of the people. Let's cut the tape and we'll go to that statement, O.K.?
MADDEN: That's fine. We'll cut the tape now and discontinue for a second and come back on in a few minutes.
(end tape one)
(beginning tape two)
MADDEN: Testing, testing, testing. Uh, we're continuing the interview now with Mr. GUNDERSON.
Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, in December, 1980, you reinterviewed HELENA STOECKLEY, and specifically, at that time, whom did she identify as being responsible for the MACDONALD murders?
GUNDERSON: She said GREG MITCHELL, DWIGHT SMITH, DON HARRIS, BRUCE FOWLER, AL ALLEN MAZEROLLE was there, and she said she was there also, and during the, the December statement, or signed confession that she gave us, which was on tape and I do have the tapes again, she said she is not sure whether WIZARD, a fellow named WIZARD was there or not, and uh, but, in the subsequent, uh, polygr, polygraph examination that we gave her, she did say that a WIZARD, she told the polygraph examiner that WIZARD, a WIZARD was there. Whoever he is, we don't know, she would never tell me the full identity of WIZARD.
MADDEN: Uh, why, at this time, would she differ in the individuals, uh, uh, that she originally named, uh, in her statement to you in October, or in, October, 1980?
GUNDERSON: Well she didn't differ, she just added one more person.
MADDEN: She's adding an individual identified, uh, by her only as
MADDEN: Uh, otherwise the individuals she names, uh, are identical to those individuals, uh, uh, she informed you were responsible for the murders uh, in her October, 1980, statement?
MADDEN: During your investigation, uh, uh, and specifically the interviews of HELENA, uh, was this the initial point uh in your investigation, uh, insofar as MACDONALD case was concerned, was your main thrust aimed at, uh, interviewing HELENA?
GUNDERSON: That was one of the main thrusts. My main thrust was to find out if the man's guilty or innocent.
MADDEN: But initially in your investigative efforts, uh, did you consider it necessary and tantamount to your investigation that, uh, HELENA should be interviewed, uh, first to, uh, determine the facts of this case?
GUNDERSON: No, not at all. My, my initial, uh, phase in the investigation, uh, was to develop as much background and as much information as possible. Uh, and with the ultimate, uh, decision to probably interviewing her. I wasn't sure I would ever have a chance to interview her.
MADDEN: After you interviewed HELENA, you did, uh, conduct, uh, considerable investigation, uh, in other areas of the case?
GUNDERSON: No, I, I conducted most of that investigation before I interviewed HELENA. Not afterwards. The, the investigation that I conducted, uh, in fact the whole case was laid before I talked to her. She was the last thing, one of the last things I've done.
MADDEN: Uh, did you not contact and interview, uh, other individuals, uh, regarding this case after you, uh, interviewed HELENA STOECKLEY?
GUNDERSON: Uh, one person. The others were all interviewed before HELENA STOECKLEY was interviewed. They, if you read the Volume One of the report, you will see that that Volume One lays the groundwork, uh, for a subsequent interview with HELENA, because everything points to HELENA. My investigation, uh, my primary thrust was not to interview HELENA. I figured that was part of the investigation, but my primary thrust was to develop as much background information as possible concerning this case, and as I say, uh, I felt that ultimately I would, uh, interview her. I wanted to interview her as soon as possible, naturally. But, uh, she wouldn't talk to me in January, 1980. Certainly that was a primary goal in the investigation, but it wasn't the goal. The goal was to find out who committed the murders, and/or did MACDONALD commit them.
MADDEN: Uh, but after you received her statements, uh, you made no efforts to, uh, uh, locate and/or interview the people that she named as being responsible for the murders?
GUNDERSON: I made no effort, uh, to, uh, locate them because I didn't have any money. I ran out of money. This investigation, if you will read the leads that I set forth in the ba-, in the back of, uh, of sections of these reports, you will see there's a lot more work to be done, and the work that I, uh, have outlined there, that has to be done, that should be done, uh, has never been done to date because we don't have any money. We ran out of money. Doctor MACDONALD does not have any money. He spent close to a million dollars on this case in the last twelve years. Uh, he owes BERNIE SEGAL a lot of money. Somebody owes me th, this money. He can't pay me, nobody can pay me, the, the original clients can't pay me.
MADDEN: But if you had in your possession and/or knowledge information indicating that a serious felony crime had been committed, uh, uh, by someone other than Doctor MACDONALD, uh, did you not consider it a feasible step to, uh, contact someone with the Department of Justice and/or the FBI to verify the information that you had, uh, obtained from STOECKLEY?
GUNDERSON: Absolutely and I, uh, Mr., uh, SEGAL gave this information to the Department of Justice, in February, 1981.
MADDEN: Uh, did, uh, you make any effort yourself to, uh, furnish this information to, uh, the FBI or any other
GUNDERSON: Not at that point, but uh, it was intended that the FBI would be furnished this information eventually, But you have to understand that, uh, I was, uh; uh, in contact with Mr. SEGAL and with the Defense Attorneys, and I, uh, was placed in a position where I had to comply with their wishes. Their wishes were, at that point, to, for me to furnish, furnish the investigation to Mr. SEGAL, and it was up to him as to what course of action he felt should be taken with the investigation. He turned it over to the Department of Justice in February, 1981.
MADDEN: Uh, you have conducted some interviews, uh, of individuals who, uh, have allegedly furnished statements regarding their knowledge, uh, of the, uh, crime scene, uh, by the crime scene, I re, I refer to the, uh, MACDONALD neighborhood, uh, during the early morning hours of February 17, 1970. Uh, would you please fully identify, uh, these individuals you have interviewed, and furnished, and furnish their addresses.
GUNDERSON: Will you hang on just a minute, I'll have to research that.
MADDEN: O.K., we'll go off tape at this time.
MADDEN: Uh, we are continuing the interview now, uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, would you please, uh, answer the previous question.
GUNDERSON: Yes, uh, the person I talked to was, uh, former neighbor of the MACDONALDs, name, lady named JAN SNYDER, who is now, uh, has remarried and is now known as JAN AULT, she's married to JOHN AULT in Cleveland, Ohio.
MADDEN: Would you please spell that last name.
GUNDERSON: A-U-L-T, and I do not have her Cleveland, Ohio, address with me at this time. I'll be glad to furnish that by phone when I return to Los Angeles, California. And I talked to JAN, uh, SYNDER, JAN AULT, on December 13, 1980. And the reason I talked to JAN AULT after I talked to HELENA STOECKLEY is because I had considerable difficulty locating her. I attempted uh throughout the year to locate JAN AULT, but, uh, could not find her. I also attempted to locate JANICE PENDLYSHOK, and I've never been able to locate JANICE PENDLYSHOK, by the way. But, uh, I did locate JAN AULT, and on my return trip from North Carolina, in December, uh, I flew to Cleveland, Ohio, and talked to, uh, JAN AULT. I'd like to also point out, by the way, when we were talking about signed statements, that in addition to taking three signed confessions from HELENA STOECKLEY, as I mentioned earlier, I took a statement from her concerning her drug habits, and, uh, I shouldn't say I did, because PRINCE BEASLEY and I did this work together, and I also took a statement, we also took a statement from HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, concerning her activities and the route that she took and the movement of the individuals involved in the murders, according to her, uh, in the neighborhood. When we returned from California to North Carolina after the December signed confession by her, she took us to the crime scene. PRINCE, uh, BEASLEY was driving, and she told us which way to go. She told as turn right, turn left, etc. Took us right to the former residence of the MACDONALDs, and when we arrived there we got out of the car, and she showed us how they moved and where they entered the place, the house, and how they left, and she physically showed us where they parked the getaway car. I took a statement that night, uh, after we left the, uh, the neighborhood. And it was at that time that I noted that HELENA STOECKLEY, when she pointed out where they parked the getaway car, uh, she pointed at, to a, uh, location that
MADDEN: We're going off tape for a second.
MADDEN: O.K., we're back on tape now.
GUNDERSON: Uh, anyway, uh, HELENA STOECKLEY pointed out exactly where they'd parked the getaway car and where they rendezvoused after they left the murder. And there was uh, uh, uh, a cove on the Castle Drive what was used for parking in the neighborhood, and, uh, when we took the statement from her, either in December or October, in Los Angeles, she pointed out that they parked the getaway car, uh, two buildings down from the MACDONALD residence. When we took her to the crime scene that night, she pointed this location out and it was precisely at 310 Castle Drive. Now at 308 Castle Drive, the night of the murders, uh, was the res-, this is where, uh, JAN SNYDER lived, at 308 Castle Drive. JAN SNYDER is the person who, based on information that I learned from reviewing past reports and, uh, from developing background information on the investigation, JAN SNYDER was the person who claimed that she looked out the second floor bedroom window at the blue Mustang that was parked in this precise location, as a matter of fact, but I wasn't sure, so therefore, uh, after I left North Carolina, I went to, uh, Cleveland, and talked to her and I took this statement from her.
MADDEN: Uh, besides JAN SYNDER, are there any other individuals, uh, you interviewed, uh, in the vicinity of the MACDONALD, uh, neighborhood?
GUNDERSON: You mean former neighbors?
MADDEN: Yes, who furnished you, uh, statements and/or information, uh, uh, regarding the, uh, night, uh, of the murders?
GUNDERSON: Yeah, no there was no, I couldn't find anybody else there. Uh, I tried to reconstruct the old neighborhood, and, uh, I did talk to, uh, a, a Doctor MAC-, not Doctor MACDONALD, but a Doctor MACDOUGAL, I think was his name, who lived behind Doctor MACDONALD, who thought that maybe, I talked to him on the phone, as I recall, he thought that maybe the, uh, this group of people had targeted him and obtain, and had entered the MACDONALD, Doctor MACDONALD's house uh, by mistake. Uh, but I really could not locate any other former neighbors in the neighborhood. I, as I said earlier, I attempted to locate JANICE PENDLYSHOK, uh, JANICE PENDLYSHOK had the dog, the 18 month old German Shepherd, that she kept tied at the clothesline there, and, uh, according to HELENA STOECKLEY, that night we went back to the crime scene, she pointed out the place where that dog was, uh, tied to the clothesline that she saw that night. She described the German Shepherd as a white, light-colored German Shepherd, about two years old, and, uh, saw it, of course did attempt to locate PENDLYSHOK, but I was unsuccessful. The last I heard JANICE PENDLYSHOK was in the Washington, D. C., area, but I have not been able to locate her.
MADDEN: During your interviews, uh, with HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, uh, did you ever mention to her any contractual agreements, uh, such as a book or movie rights, uh, regarding the MACDONALD case?
GUNDERSON: Uh, after the second signed statement, in December, uh, I mentioned the possibility, first of all she, uh, was complaining about she had no money, and she had a lot of financial problems, etc. And I mentioned that there was a possibility that there would be a book and a movie made from the investigation, which was not my motive, by the way, but incidental to the investigation. And if that was the case that, uh, she was a part of it if she so desired. I would be willing to cut her in on it financially, uh, and uh, would be willing to discuss with her at a later, at a later date, in detail.
MADDEN: You did state that, uh, this was after the, uh, second signed statement that you had obtained from her?
GUNDERSON: Yes, right. That it was not used as a device to obtain any, any statements from her at all. Not in any way whatsoever.
MADDEN: You did previously state, uh, during this interview, though that you did obtain three signed statements from her. Is that correct?
GUNDERSON: Yes, uh huh, I, I, I obtained three signed confessions from her. I sh, I can't say, when I say we, I mean, or me, it's not me. PRINCE and I did, PRINCE BEASLEY and I did it. We obtained three signed confessions from her, uh, we also obtained a, a, a statement from her concerning her drug habits, and also a statement from her concerning her movement in the neighborhood, the MACDONALD neighborhood, the night of the murders. But it was, this, this was not used as a device to encourage her or to get her to furnish any of these statements. This was mentioned subsequent to the second confession.
MADDEN: But you did take another signed statement from her after the second, uh, confession, or second signed statement?
GUNDERSON: Yeah, well the first, first statement we took from HELENA, as I mentioned, we went into the night, uh, the next day we looked at it, it was disjointed, uh, we retyped it, uh, and we signed a second confession. The first confession was not included in the report, but I do have it in my office and I will be mak-, oh I will make it available to the FBI, I'm willing to cooperate in any way that I can. The third one was the December statement. And it was after the third statement that I mentioned uh the possibility that there would pos, maybe be a book and/or movie from the investigation.
MADDEN: O.K., now you say the third statement, it's, uh, my recollection during this interview, that you previously stated several times that it was after the second, uh, signed statement that, uh, you informed her of the book and uh, possible book and movie, uh, regarding this case.
GUNDERSON: Yeah, well, I'm talking about, I'm sorry, there was confusion there, it's on my part, because when I mentioned the second confession, I was talking about the December one before. But actually we took, as I said, in the October visit we took two statements, and I only included one in the report, the second one, in the report, and that's where the confusion is. What I'm referring to now specifically so there'll be no question about it, it was after the December statement that I mentioned the possibility of a book and movie, and thank you for correcting me.
MADDEN: Uh, have you, since that time, uh, actually entered in, entered into any contractual arrangements, uh, uh, with HELENA STOECKLEY for a book or movie to be written regarding the MACDONALD case?
GUNDERSON: I have not, and in fact I have not entered into a contractual agreement with anybody for that. That is not my primary goal. My primary goal uh, has and always will be, to determine what the true facts are in this investigation.
MADDEN: Uh, have you, yourself, contacted anyone regarding the possibility of a book or movie regarding this case?
GUNDERSON: Yes I have. I've talked to several, uh, uh, people about it, and, uh, I have a, an attorney in Los Angeles, who has mainly done the work on it, and he has talked to some people about it, but we have not entered into any sort of agreement. That is not primary, that is secondary.
MADDEN: Is there any particular reason why you have contacted someone, uh, regarding the possibility of a book or movie regarding this case?
GUNDERSON: There's a very good reason, because I'd like to recoup, uh, my expenses and my money on this case.
MADDEN: Other than, uh, recouping, uh, some financial, uh, losses, uh, you have no other, uh, motivation, uh, to have this, uh, case, uh, possibly, uh, prepared into a book or movie?
GUNDERSON: I can't think of any other reason why I'd want it.
MADDEN: Uh, you have not entered in, entered into any formal agreement with anyone at this time then?
GUNDERSON: Absolutely not.
MADDEN: Uh, would you identify your attorney in Los Angeles, uh, whom you have contacted, uh,-
GUNDERSON: Yes, SPENCER SEGURA (phonetic), son of PANCHO SEGUAR (phonetic), the famous tennis player.
MADDEN: Uh, have you contacted, uh, anyone in the movie industry in California regarding, uh, possible movie regarding the MACDONALD case?
GUNDERSON: No, I really, I've talked to some people about it, but I haven't, you know, I really haven't gone into it in ernest, or, I haven't really sought anybody out, I just, I merely had general discussions about it. And SPENCER, SPENCER's looking into that possibility now, but as I, as I mentioned, this is secondary. The primary uh, concern is, uh, this case. The investigation. And my motive for this investigation, uh, initially, uh, was, uh, it was a client-business relationship. Initially they came to me, they wanted me to conduct the investigation, I did, and once I became involved in the investigation, uh, and conducted, uh, my considerable amount of work, in my mind I felt that there was no question about this man's innocence.
MADDEN: Are you aware of, uh, any individual, including HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, having any contractual arrangements, uh, regarding this case, either for a book or a movie with anyone?
GUNDERSON: Uh, just last night, Mr. PRINCE BEASLEY told me that, uh, FRED BOST has contracted with her for something. I don't know what the details are. FRED BOST is a reporter with the Fayetteville paper. You probably familiar with him. But I didn't know about it till last night.
MADDEN: You don't know exactly what the arrangements are between, uh, HELENA STOECKLEY and, uh, FRED BOST.
GUNDERSON: I don't have any idea.
MADDEN: Is there anyone else involved in this contract?
GUNDERSON: Uh, not, nobody that I know of. PRINCE mentioned that, uh, I think that he was involved, possibly. Is that right PRINCE? I don't know.
MADDEN: Specifically is this for a book to be written regarding the case?
GUNDERSON: You asking me?
GUNDERSON: I don't know.
MADDEN: I would like to, uh, at this point, uh, ask some questions, uh, regarding, uh, uh, the interview of ERNEST, uh, DAVIS, who is HELENA's husband. Uh, can you tell me specifically, uh, when, uh, and where did you interview ERNEST DAVIS?
GUNDERSON: Yeah, ERNEST DAVIS was interviewed, uh, again in Los Angeles, in my office, for the most part, but it was similar to the uh, situation involving HELENA STOECKLEY, where he came to Los Angeles and we spent about, I guess four or five days with ERNIE, uh, discussing, uh, the case, all aspects of the investigation, and so forth.
MADDEN: Was he interviewed only on one occasion?
GUNDERSON: He's, he's only been interviewed on one occasion. I did, uh, I, I ran into him when I re, uh, took HELENA down to South Carolina, after we returned to this part of the country and visited the crime scene. And I moved her down there from Fayetteville.
MADDEN: Did you obtain a signed statement from ERNEST DAVIS when you interviewed him in Los Angeles?
GUNDERSON: Uh, PRINCE BEASLEY and I obtained a signed statement from him, yes.
MADDEN: Uh, did, uh, DAVIS actually sign this statement?
GUNDERSON: Yes, absolutely he signed it. I don't know of anybody else who would have signed it.
MADDEN: Would you, uh, furnish a copy of the original of ERNEST DAVIS' signed statement to the FBI?
GUNDERSON: Absolutely, yes. absolutely.
MADDEN: Uh, when you interviewed, uh, DAVIS, uh, how long, uh, period of time, uh, was he actually in Los Angeles being interviewed?
GUNDERSON: I, I forget the exact number of days. I, you know, again I can research this for you, but it was uh four or five days, I'd say.
MADDEN: During his interview, did you maintain interview logs?
MADDEN: Is there any particular reason as to why you did not uh
GUNDERSON: I didn't feel it was necessary. He was there voluntarily, and uh, I didn't feel it was necessary.
MADDEN: Prior to, uh, interviewing, uh, DAVIS, uh exactly what did you, uh, tell him?
GUNDERSON: Well actually, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY was the one who talked to him, and, and convinced him that he should, uh, come to California. Then when he came to California, we just sat down, we just, similar situation as it was with HELENA. It was, uh, period of becoming acquainted, and gaining his confidence, and him gaining my confidence, and uh, and being able to work out a amicable relationship.
MADDEN: Uh, did you ever make DAVIS any promises, uh, or agreements, uh, with him, uh, in order to get him to cooperate with you?
GUNDERSON: None at all. We, as I recall, we may have mentioned the possibility that, uh, you know, we'd, we'd be willing to resettle both ERNIE DAVIS and HELENA, uh, again in California, but I'm not sure if we said this to him or not.
MADDEN: Prior to, uh, interviewing, uh, DAVIS, uh, did you uh make any statements to him regarding, uh, Doctor MACDONALD's current legal situation?
GUNDERSON: I may have, and if I did it'd be the same that I probably made to HELENA.
MADDEN: Uh, specifically would you, uh, repeat what you, uh, possibly informed DAVIS.
Note from Christina Masewicz: Page 43 was missing from this document when I received it. Page 44 continues below.
GUNDERSON: I don't recall, uh, telling ERNIE DAVIS that.
MADDEN: You got no recollection that, uh, uh, you did, uh, or possibly stated to, uh, DAVIS that, uh, a book and/or movie, uh, was being considered regarding this case.
GUNDERSON: Right, right. I have no recollection of that.
MADDEN: O.K., let's go off line just a second and let me get caught up here.
(End of tape two)
(Beginning of tape three)
MADDEN: One, two, three, four, five, testing, testing, testing.
MADDEN: We're continuing, uh, the interview again with Mr. GUNDERSON. Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, during, uh, your interviews and association, uh, with HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, is there something that, uh, you would like to, uh, add to this interview, uh, regarding, uh, HELENA?
GUNDERSON: Yes, there is. Uh, when I talked to you on the phone in California, uh, I asked you specifically what the purpose of the interview, and uh, as a well trained FBI Agent you said you couldn't discuss that with me. Uh, but I gathered, and I uh depicted -
(I think this, I should have changed it after all)
MADDEN: Uh, we're going off tape for a second.
GUNDERSON: I more or less interpreted, uh, that the purpose was, uh, my, your interview with me was, and I'm not asking you to confirm or deny this, I more or less interpreted that, uh, uh, and there's no question about it, based on the line of questioning this morning, it was pretty apparent to me, that HELENA STOECKLEY had made some, uh, charges against me, uh, and uh, I, I know you cannot say that, uh, this is true or not true, but it's pretty obvious to me that that's what's happened. Uh, I'd like to point out to you gentlemen here today, and to the FBI in particular, and to Mr. MURTAGH, in Washington, D. C., who will obviously be listening to this tape, that Mr. ERNIE DAVIS came to California voluntarily. Nobody put any handcuffs on him and physically brought him out there. HELENA DAVIS came out there twice voluntarily. Nobody forcibly brought her out there. She voluntarily came back from California, to North Carolina, to visit the crime scene, and voluntarily took us to the crime scene, and showed us the route that, uh, was taken that night, and directed us directly to the scene and showed us exactly where they entered the house, how they entered the house, how they left, where they parked the car. She also voluntarily gave me, gave us a statement about her drug habits, and voluntarily, uh, gave us a statement about the movement of the group that night, as they exited and entered the area. Uh, for her to, I don't know why she's turned on, I, I do know why she's turned on me. In my opinion, uh, she has turned on me because she realizes now, more than ever and probably for the first time, that conceivably she probably could be prosecuted for this case. Not for capital punishment, not for the murders themselves, but certainly she could be prosecuted for conspiracy, because, if what she says is true, that the murders were committed by a sex, drug oriented Satanic Cult that practiced human and animal sacrifice, if that is true, and she also told us that the murders were planned off the base around the period of October, 1969, then she and her group could be tried for a conspiracy to commit murder, which does not have a statute in the State of North Carolina. And, uh, so, I, I, I'd have to say also that, uh, it's unbelievable the way that HELENA STOECKLEY has manipulated from my, again from my review of this case, manipulated, not only the prosecution, and the judge, but also the defense. And that, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY, and I, are the first ones that have been able to get to her and obtain a true confession from her. And, uh, this was not done through trickery, it was done through good, solid investigative work and through, by a great effort on the part of both of us. Uh, there's no question in my mind, after talking to HELENA, and after the facts that she's given us, and from the information that we've developed in the investigation, there's no question in my mind, that MACDONALD is innocent. Uh, and I'm just disappointed in the, Department of Justice and Mr. MURTAGH in particular, for not having reviewed some of these matters, and at least not seriously taking this matter into consideration at this point. The purpose, the reason I have not continued with the investigation, which I've pointed out several times already, is because I cannot afford to continue the investigation. I had hoped to develop the investigation, well I mentioned when I came in, I said, as I said earlier, fifty-fifty chance, uh, Doctor MACDONALD innocent or guilty. It's, the investigation is developed to the point now where somebody, somebody in uh efficient capacity should look at this, and continue it, and uh follow through, looking for these people. But there are a number of events that have taken place and a number of incidents that have occurred that re-, that have not been addressed by the Government at this point. And one, certainly involves the strands of hair that were found in COLETTE's right hand. It's been established that they were not Doctor MACDONALD's, and were not the children's hair. Now where could these hairs have come from? They had to come from somebody else. Also, the candle drippings the, there weren't any waxed candles found in the house of, of the MACDONALD residence. There were wax drippings found in the living room and also the bed clothing of the children. These two points have been completely ignored by the Government. And, uh, as a former FBI Agent, it's, I, I just cannot understand, uh, how this, uh, could be overlooked. Not only initially, but certainly now in view of this confession by HELENA STOECKLEY. I'd like to also point out, further give indication of the fact that Mr. MURTAGH and Mr. BLACKBURN are both very prejudice people, uh, when the information about the confession broke in the North Carolina newspaper, Fayetteville, I believe it was, they were interviewed, both of them, and according to the reporter and the article, one of them said that the confession was ridiculous and the other one said that the investigation was a smoke screen. Both of these men made this statement without having had an opportunity to review the confession or review my twelve hundred page report. And I, based on that fact alone, I'd have to say that they are not looking at this in an objective and fair manner that, at least they could have done, was to say they would withhold their opinion until they had an opportunity to review the investigation in the report. You brought out the fact that I have not, did not turn this over to, uh, the FBI, or turn this over to the Government immediately upon receipt of the confession from HELENA STOECKLEY, it's been very obvious and you know yourself from reviewing the case over a eleven, twelve year period, that HELENA STOECKLEY has talked to, in, at least six people, uh, wherein she said she thought she was there and then she changed her mind, said she didn't think she was there, Judge, the Judge, DUPREE, made the statement her mind was so far gone that she couldn't possibly remember whether she was there or not. But basically it boils down to the fact that HELENA STOECKLEY was ridiculed and, uh, no one believed her. So why should I have brought this to your attention after I obtained a confession? The fact that MURTAGH and BLACKBURN made the statement that the invest-, investigation and confession were a smoke screen and ridiculous is a further indication, uh, of the attitude that they would have taken had I turned it over to them immediately. This broke in November, by the, I think, no in December. Uh, did you have any more questions along these lines that you wanted to ask me?
MADDEN: You're welcome to say anything you'd like.
GUNDERSON: Yeah. Uh, are you basically through with your interview of me?
MADDEN: Uh, yes, uh, I would like to, to ask you, uh, one additional question. You state that HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, uh has changed her mind, uh regarding this case on several different occasions, can you explain that?
GUNDERSON: Well, that's in the, that's, uh, in the, uh, was developed, uh, in the initial investigation, before I even came into it. She told six people, the defense attempted to, uh, uh, the defense attempted to make these six people available for testimony in the trial, she told so-, told six people she thought she was there, then she, uh, later changed her mind, and said she does, she's not sure she was there. You know that yourself. Uh, but I don't think that, uh, this is, uh, that important. I think that, uh, what's happening, she was manipulating everybody. And she was deliberately, uh, trying to make herself look uh, unsure of the situation as far as she personally was concerned, uh, why I don't know. But manip-, but HELENA STOECKLEY is a very, very clever, clever woman. Very smart, very intelligent woman. When, immediately after we obtained, PRINCE and I obtained the, uh, I should say the second confession, there were two confessions in October, the second confession in October, uh, we took her to a polygraph examiner, and he said that, and you know you interviewed him yourself, Mr. MADDEN. He said that based on his examination he felt that, uh, that she was at the scene and she was telling the truth. Uh, after the second, uh, or the third I should say, the third confession, in December, we had her examined by a psychologist, a forensic psychologist at UCLA, and in her statement to the psychologist, and I'll be willing to make you, I, I brought a copy of the statement for you today, by the way, which is a summary of the tape interview with HELENA STOECKLEY. She admits to the doctor that she committed the mur-, that she was there at the scene that night. And there's quite a few details in here which backs up what she tel, what she told us. So she basically confessed to this doctor that's Doctor REX BEABER and here's a copy of that, by the way, I'm furnishing, let the record show that I'm furnishing a copy of this interview with HELENA STOECKLEY by Doctor REX BEABER, December 7th, 1980.
MADDEN: Thank you.
GUNDERSON: Right. Now, you, uh, your line of questioning indicates certainly that only is HELENA STOECKLEY turned on me, and, uh, I don't know what she said, I would like to know, but obviously you're not going to tell me. Uh, but obviously it is inferred that I made false promises, and, uh, apparently, uh, uh, promises to her about a book and a movie, which is not true. I said, I talked to her about the possibility of a book and a movie, and I also told her that if something did come of this, that, uh, she would receive some financial aid from it, but this was after the fact. This was not, uh, a device used to get her to furnish me a statement. But, uh, when this first developed, PRINCE BEASLEY was here in North Carolina, and uh, HELENA, through PRINCE's efforts, indicated that she would be willing to come to California. And that night she called, PRINCE called looking for me, seeking my advice on it. I was unavailable. And she then talked to my original client, PRINCE put her on the phone and she talked to PHYLLIS HUGHES, PHYLLIS HUGHES is the wife of Doctor JERRY HUGHES, who was a friend of Doctor MACDONALD'S who came, PHYLLIS came to me and said will you investigate it. I asked, uh, when I knew I was coming here to Calif, to, uh, North Carolina, I asked PHYLLIS to give me a letter which sets forth information that she obtained from HELENA that night on the telephone call. Here's a copy of a letter, let the record show that I'm giving you this copy of this letter from PHYLLIS HUGHES to me dated December 1, 1981. And in this letter, it clearly outlines the conversation between HELENA and PHYLLIS HUGHES, and in this letter it clearly shows that HELENA came to California voluntarily. There was no duress and no promises.
MADDEN: Thank you.
GUNDERSON: O.K. I have here a letter from HELENA STOECKLEY to me, which is undated. I only have the original, I don't have a copy. If you have a Xerox copy, Xerox machine, I'll be glad to make this available to you. And in this, she says Dear TED, please forgive my crude stationery but it's all I could procure. I must apologize for being such a pain in, uh, gluteus maximus but if I can't be working, I'll go crazy, so I must have some sort of work background. Now what happened here is HELENA called me. There was a Washington Post article, uh, that came out, and in this article, they had, they had her picture and so forth, and, uh, as, HELENA called me, said hey, as a result of this article, I have not been able to obtain any employment. Nobody will hire me. Uh, and so then she wrote and she said would you give me some cover for background for the period of 1974 to 1978, somewhere in California. And this letter asks for that specific information. Uh, so she, she said so I must have some sort of work background. It seems the Greenville paper has a special interest in the "M" case, meaning the MACDONALD case, so I'm subsequently washed up as far as private duty. If you could provide me with some sort of work for sometime during 1974 to 1978, I could work around the rest, preferably work in the medical or receptions field would be best. I'm sorry I got so upset after the article in the Post appeared, but some of the statements made were unfound. This, she'd called me and talked to me about this. Also, is there any way that I could get a copy of the sound of the man's voice who claims to have made the phone call to JIMMY's, to JEFF's residence that night-morning? That's JIMMY FRYER's phone call. Well I must cut this short and keep an appointment in town. As for the work record, I need it for the period above dated. HELENA DAVIS, 6/7/52, it is dated June 7th, excuse me, I'm sorry, yeah, 6/7/52, the letter still is not dated. She gives me her Social Security Number, she needs information, she says she needs a California residence address, California, work address, supervisor's name and address, and anything else that could, that I could think of to aid in potential employment. Then she goes on, she talks about her relationship with ERNIE and tells me that if I write, uh, that uh, not to mention our contacts, uh, I, I told her, I knew she was having financial problems, I didn't feel it was in the best interest of the case, very frankly to furnish her money. I have not furnished her any money deliberately because I didn't want it to appear that I promised her, or gave her money, uh, for purposes of her furnishing me with a signed statement, us with a signed statement. But I told her at some date in the future when this is all over I would try to help her out. And, uh, well she asked for a car, and she also, uh, I've told her, you know, that I'd try to help her, but I really couldn't. And I knew I couldn't. Uh, I would like to point out, then this letter goes on and it's very, it's very nice letter. If you have any, uh, uh, so, so if any money arrived as long as it was not a personal check and you didn't explain anything except that you acknowledge the fact that the newspaper was probably causing a hassle for us, I can't see, see where he could say too much, talking about her husband, ERNIE DAVIS. So let me close, I'll be in touch if anything comes up. Thank you in advance for your help in the matter. Please keep me posted on the progress in JEFF's case. Sincerely. Then she gives her address. Then I wrote her a letter back. I did give her a cover, phony cover for employment, 70, uh 4, to 1978, uh, trying to help her out. And I'll be glad to give you a copy of the letter that I wrote to her. Now, uh, I'd like to also point out that I did give HELENA some money when I dropped her out of the car, in South Carolina, after I moved her from North Carolina, to South Carolina. I gave her a hundred dollar bill, uh, for her to obtain a telephone, put a telephone in her trailer camp so we could communicate with her, and also, uh, to help her out maybe for some clothes or some food, or whatever. She is very destitute, she was destitute, she doesn't have any money. But this was not in any way given to her for the purpose of having her furnish us a statement. Everything she gave us was voluntarily. Voluntary on her part. And I have a copy of a letter dated July 30, 1981, from HELENA to me, whereas it's very obvious that she's turned on me. And she basically says that that I, again I'll make this available to you, uh, Mr. MADDEN. She says for me not to contact her anymore, that uh I've used her as a pawn for so-called confession, and so forth. And she says, uh, Dear Mr. GUNDERSON, In all fairness to any person or persons (short pause, buzzing on tape) -81, says in all fairness to any person or persons involved in the investigation of the JEFFREY MACDONALD murder case in 1970, at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, I feel that it is my moral alleg-, obligation to inform you that my husband and I are on, in the process of immediate relocation. It is my opinion that in the preceding months I have been used as a pawn for your convenience and suitability. I also feel that in December, 1980, I was coerced, uh, into signing a so-called confession and that I was exploited by means of false hopes and empty promises. Never have I seen such a mockery made of justice or such a shambles made of an investigation. Granted, I have a past history of drug abuse and cult involvement, here she admits it again in writing, but in my opinion, I do possess clear and sound mental faculties, good judgment and a moderate level of intelligence. After being deceived time and time again and after finding that what I thought was shrewdness and caution on my part was being taken by everyone as gullibility, I no longer feel obligated to aid anyone in this matter. I have procured a lawyer who is gathering data on the case so that should anyone come up with any more idea, any insane idea that I should be incarcerated, I won't be caught unprepared again. Also, if I were you, I would be mindful of the fact that defamation of character over a long period of time is a pretty serious charge. When I finally agreed to cooperate with you, I felt I was doing what was morally right. Now she, now, when I finally agreed to cooperate with you. Here she is, in July, saying, voluntarily saying, on her own, to me, that she agreed to cooperate with me. I would also be freeing myself from a private hell, which is what she told us her motive was. So I gave you a, uh, conclusion, I can't read her writing, a review, as, oh, as conclusive a review of the events of the night in question as I could. You, in turn, misconstrued and distorted all statements I made to you to be used against me at your convenience. Well she admits that she gave us information, now she said I distorted it, yet she read and signed every page and initialed the bottom of each page. No longer will I be caused any further embarrassment or have unfavorable implications made about me due to the case. Any and all fears and anxieties that I now have I, I will deal with myself. Contrary to statements made by Judge DUPREE and countless other people, my life is no longer one big drugged, dazed stupor that I cannot face. Do not try to contact me or anyone related to me in the future. At the, I can't read it. It's more in my favor. Your consideration in the matter would be appreciated. Please make my stand clear to Mr. BEASLEY as well. I reiterate should there be any future undue stress paid upon me, I shall not hesitate to seek legal action. Sincerely, Mrs. HELENA DAVIS.
MADDEN: Going off?
GUNDERSON: I need Xerox copies of these.
MADDEN: May I ask one, uh, one question at this point.
MADDEN: Uh, why do you think HELENA would, uh, direct a letter of that type, uh, to you at that particular point?
GUNDERSON: Well, let's go on record with that.
MADDEN: Uh, this will be Special Agent MADDEN, uh, asking question to Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, why uh, do you think HELENA would direct a letter of that, uh, type to you, uh, you indicated in the past that she has manipulated, uh, people uh, would you please explain your opinion of that type of a letter?
GUNDERSON: Well in my opinion, I think that what's happened is HELENA gave us these confessions and she now has second thoughts about them, and she realizes probably now that she can in fact be tried for conspiracy, off the base. Uh, again I don't know if she can be tried for this crime, that's my understanding, as we've already covered here on the tape that she cannot, but maybe I'm wrong. But any place, she's, uh, she's put herself in the middle, very clearly placed herself in the middle of this case-, investigation. When she came to us, uh, initially with, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY, she said one of the reasons was because she wanted to clear her conscience. She'd been living in a private hell, and she mentioned that in one of these letters. Now she, uh, I think she feels that she, uh, she's implicated herself, very clearly implicated herself, and that's why she's changing her mind.
MADDEN: Uh, at this point, uh, how you, uh, describe uh her creditability?
GUNDERSON: Uh, in regard to, in what regard?
MADDEN: Uh, in regard to any information she furnished, uh, in reference to this case.
GUNDERSON: Well, uh, I'd have to say that, uh, uh, I think that her creditability, when she, uh, gave us the signed statements and the confessions, uh, was very good. And, uh, I think that, uh, up to that point where she attempted to confuse everybody through the years, her cred, creditability was very questionable. Now, I think her creditability is also very questionable, because she's changed her mind, uh, and, what you're saying is that because she's was, her creditability was questionable before, and after, what I'm saying is it was, I, I think the fact she gave us these statements, that the statements are, are creditable. And the reason I think the statements are creditable, is not because she gave them to us, but because our investigation has substantiated information in the statements through independent investigation of our own. That's why I think the statements are creditable. And I'll be glad to discuss that in detail with you. Would you like to discuss that?
MADDEN: Uh, if she
GUNDERSON: No, you don't want to discuss that?
MADDEN: Not at this point.
MADDEN: Uh if she has recanted her, uh, signed statements, uh, to you, uh, how would you des, describe, uh, her posture or reasoning as to why she would, uh, uh, refute, uh, her statements at this time?
GUNDERSON: What I think, I thought maybe I covered that, but because I, I think she realizes now, I believe she realizes now that she can go to jail for this crime. Whereas she didn't at the time.
MADDEN: There does not exist a possibility that, uh, she has not, uh, furnished accurate and truthful information to you?
GUNDERSON: Well there's always that possibility. Yes, but as I pointed out just a few minutes ago, some of the information she gave us in the signed statements has been corroborated through independent investigation by me. Which makes the, the statement creditable.
MADDEN: Creditable in your opinion, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: No, not in my opinion, in fact. Then as I say, I will be glad to discuss those points with you right now if you want to, but you say you don't want to.
MADDEN: Do you have anything additional at this point, that, uh, you would like to state, uh, regarding, uh, your investigation, uh, association with HELENA or any other, uh, point, uh, in this investigation that, uh, you would like to bring forward at this time?
GUNDERSON: Do you want, the only thing I have would be if you want to discuss these points in the signed confession which I've corroborated through independent investigation, which I say gives creditability to her statement. You don't want to discuss those now.
MADDEN: Uh we do have a copy of, uh, your report, uh, which, uh, emphasizes, uh, those, uh, particular facts, uh, and uh, it's not deemed necessary to, uh, reiterate, uh, that information at this time.
MADDEN: Uh, if you have anything at this time, uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, you would like to state in addition to, uh, what you've previously furnished during this interview, uh, you're welcome, uh, to state anything at this time.
GUNDERSON: Let's cut the tape, I want to take some, look at some notes.
(End tape three)
(beginning tape four)
MADDEN: One, two, three, four, five. Testing, testing, testing. Well wait a minute, I'll -
GUNDERSON: Uh, there's one other facet as far as HELENA STOECKLEY is concerned, that involves PRINCE BEASLEY himself. Now he, Mr. BEASLEY'S made a number of trips to South Carolina this last year at her request, and, uh, in an attempt to you know, maintain contact with her. We felt that she, uh, we've always felt that she's critical as far as the investigation is concerned, whether you're looking at it from the crit-, prosecution side or the uh, defense side. But, uh, to further substantiate the fact that she apparently has turned on me, and made some uncomplimentary comments about me, uh, I'd like to have PRINCE uh tell you in his own words, uh, what she has said, uh, during some of these trips to South Carolina.
MADDEN: Uh, at this point, uh, in the interview, uh, we will be dealing with, uh, PRINCE E. BEASLEY, uh, who's a, who is a retired, uh, Detective from the Fayetteville, North Carolina, Police Department.
Uh, Mr. BEASLEY, would you please state your full name and your current occupation.
BEASLEY: PRINCE E. BEASLEY, retired police officer, uh, from Fayetteville, North Carolina.
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY, uh, prior to you making any comments, uh, regarding this case, I would like to, uh, go over several points with you, if you have no objection.
BEASLEY: No objection at all.
MADDEN: O.K., would you please speak up for the micro-
BEASLEY: No objection at all.
MADDEN: Uh, you do recall that, uh, myself and Special Agent, uh, THOMAS, uh, B. MCNALLY interviewed you in Fayetteville, North Carolina, on November 18, 1981, is that correct?
BEASLEY: I do.
MADDEN: Uh, at that time, uh, you made, uh, reference uh, to observing several individuals, uh, in Fayetteville, North Carolina, in the company of HELENA STOECKLEY on the evening of 2/16/70, in the vicinity of the uh Village Shop in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Uh, do you recall uh, that information that you previously furnished?
BEASLEY: Yes, I do.
MADDEN: Uh, going back to the night of 2/16/1970, and specifically, uh, would you please, uh, name the individuals that, uh, you observed with HELENA, uh, and the circumstances surrounding uh this observation.
BEASLEY: I observed a blue Mustang pull up beside the Village Shop on Haymont Hill (phonetic). A black male got out of the car, that I knew as EDDIE. Uh, I later learned it was DWIGHT SMITH. He got out of the car, opened the door, HELENA got out, she had a blonde wig on, walked inside the Village Shop and was only in there just a few minutes, came back out and got into the car. Uh, now, uh, the guy that was driving the car, or the guy that was in the backseat, by name, I, I couldn't tell you, I don't know what their names were. Now, I, I recall you asking me about MAZEROLLE and about, uh, GREG MITCHELL, but I thought you were mention, asking me if they were with her during this period of time at Fort Bragg, that we were discussing. That's, I think that's where I think I might have made a little mistake there. But I could not tell you who was driving that car. Or who the other male was in the backseat. The only two people I could recognize there was uh, DWIGHT SMITH and uh HELENA STOECKLEY.
MADDEN: How many total individuals, uh, did you observe in the vehicle on that night?
BEASLEY: There was four.
MADDEN: Uh, you're talking about HELENA, uh, DWIGHT SMITH, and two other individuals?
BEASLEY: The driver and also one male in the backseat, on the left
MADDEN: Are, excuse me
BEASLEY: the left rear. In other words he was sitting in the blind spot of the car, there where, you know, where you can't see real well.
MADDEN: Are both these individuals you are referring to white males?
BEASLEY: Yes they were white males.
MADDEN: During your interview, uh, in November of 1981, uh, with the FBI, uh, is it not, uh, correct that you stated you observed, uh, EDDIE or SMITTY, of being the same individual; uh, GREG MITCHELL, BRUCE JOHNNY FOWLER, ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE, and an individual, uh, later identified to you by HELENA as "WIZARD"?
BEASLEY: No, uh, no. I, I, that's what I was trying to correct a while ago. When those names was asked, I thought you were referring to the ones that was with her at the murder scene, that she told me that was there.
MADDEN: Uh, during the interview, uh, the FBI conducted with you, uh, in November of 1981, uh, these, the above named individuals uh, were the individuals uh, who you stated to us, uh, were in her company uh, which identification by you was not, uh, prompted by, uh, the interviewing Agents, is that correct?
BEASLEY: Well I wouldn't say it was prompted, uh, I, I think I just misunderstood the question.
MADDEN: In other words what you're now saying, uh, that the information that you previously furnished on November 18, 1981, uh, was incorrect or inadvertently furnished to the FBI?
BEASLEY: Inadvertently furnished to the FBI, I would say that. Because, uh, uh, I could not recognize the other two people.
MADDEN: You talking about a total of four people being present in the car?
BEASLEY: That's correct.
MADDEN: When you were previously interviewed, you stated that there were five people and you named those five people. Is that correct?
BEASLEY: Uh, I named those, I named, uh, no I don't think I named five. Well if I did, it was still in reference to who she mentioned was at the murder scene with her when this happened. I, like I say, I inadvertently answered it wrong. I didn't, I didn't intend to answer it that way.
MADDEN: In your contacts, uh, uh, with HELENA and your association uh with her over the years, uh, you've had occasion to, uh, interview her, uh, regarding this case. Is that correct?
BEASLEY: Yes sir.
MADDEN: Uh, when she has furnished you information, uh regarding the MACDONALD murders, whom does she name as being, uh, responsible, uh, for the murders?
BEASLEY: She named GREG MITCHELL, DON HARRIS, ALLEN MAZEROLLE, DWIGHT SMITH, uh, let's see what the other guy's name is
GUNDERSON: Don't you think it's fair for him to
BEASLEY: BRUCE FOWLER
BEASLEY: BRUCE FOWLER.
MADDEN: Uh, did you observe, uh, DON HARRIS, uh, BRUCE FOWLER, GREG MITCHELL, uh, or ALLEN P. with HELENA, uh, on the night of 2/16/1970 in Fayetteville, North Carolina?
BEASLEY: Not knowingly, no, it, it, they, they may have been in the car, but I couldn't recognize it being them. I don't know if it was them or not.
MADDEN: What you're now saying
BEASLEY: I'm, I'm, I'm saying now there are two that I can identify, was DWIGHT SMITH and HELENA STOECKLEY. The other two in the car, I could not identify.
MADDEN: Did you not previously, uh, during your interview with the FBI, state that GREG MITCHELL, BRUCE JOHNNY FOWLER, ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE, uh were also present uh and with her on the nights of 2/16/1970?
(short pause, buzzing on tape)
MADDEN: I will repeat that question, uh, for you, uh, Mr. BEASLEY, uh, did you not state, uh, in your previous interview with the FBI, uh, in November of 1981, that in addition to uh HELENA STOECKLEY, and DWIGHT SMITH, uh, that on the evening of 2/16/1970, uh, you observed in her company GREG MITCHELL, BRUCE JOHNNY FOWLER, and ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE in addition to SMITH and STOECKLEY?
BEASLEY: Uh, as being at the Village Shop at, uh, about eleven o'clock?
MADDEN: That's correct.
BEASLEY: Uh, no sir, uh, uh, well if I did, I didn't mean it that way. It's like I, I said a while ago. I thought that you was asking me of the ones that was with her during the night of the murders. And I, you named ALLEN MAZEROLLE, you named, uh, GREG MITCHELL, and I said yeah, yeah, you know, something to that effect. But I thought you were talking about the ones that were with her at the murder scene, or that she said was with her.
MADDEN: Now as I recall, uh, during interview with you, uh, in November, uh, that specifically we did not uh, prompt. you or mention any particular, uh, names, uh, to you, uh, prior to you identifying uh, DWIGHT SMITH, uh, GREG MITCHELL, BRUCE JOHNNY FOWLER, ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE and WIZARD as being with HELENA, is that correct?
BEASLEY: No, the only two names I could remember, I was trying to think of the names, and you said ALLEN and, then I said MAZEROLLE. Uh, and you said GREG
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY, uh, when you contacted HELENA on February 17, 1970, uh, in the late evening hours in Fayetteville, North Carolina, uh, she was with a group of individuals at that time, is that correct?
BEASLEY: That is correct. Yes.
MADDEN: Uh, would you please, uh, state the, uh, location you, uh, found HELENA, and uh, particularly who was in her company at that time.
BEASLEY: O.K. Excuse me that's correction it's February-
MADDEN: Excuse me, uh, let the record show that, uh, this would be on, uh, February 18, 1970.
MADDEN: Would you please state the, uh, uh, names of the individuals, uh, who were in the company of HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, during the first occasion you contacted her, uh, after the, uh, MACDONALD murders and the, uh, circumstances surrounding, uh, your contact.
BEASLEY: Well, I, you want me to, uh, describe how I, uh, first spotted her, or what, or
MADDEN: Uh, I would like you to describe, uh, the particular location where you found her, and exactly who was in her company at that time.
BEASLEY: I, uh, staked out 1108 Clark Street. That was in, uh, Fayetteville, that was where HELENA lived with this group of hippies, or so called hippies. Uh, it was about two, uh, thirty, on the morning of the 18th. Uh, a cream, or a light colored car, pulled into the driveway. I saw HELENA in the car and I called HELENA to me. GREG MITCHELL was in the car, DON HARRIS was in the car, and I believe, uh, without looking at my report, his name was, uh, POPLIN (phonetic), was in the car. Uh, now whether BRUCE FOWLER was there or not, I'm not sure about that. And there was some others that I, I, I don't know. I, I have records, I did have records, with the names of most of the people that was there, and I cannot locate my records, at the Police Department.
MADDEN: How many, uh, people, uh, specifically are you talking about, uh, can you recall the number of people who were with her at that time?
BEASLEY: Oh gosh, there was six or seven people with her, uh, the car was completely full. It, it was completely filled up when it pulled up there. And, uh, they were, they were yelling and laughing, going on.
MADDEN: Was BRUCE JOHNNY FOWLER in the car?
BEASLEY: I don't recall FOWLER being there. But I do recall DON HARRIS being there.
MADDEN: Was ALLEN MAZEROLLE in the car?
BEASLEY: ALLEN MAZEROLLE was there.
MADDEN: Uh, you're quite sure in your mind that, uh, uh, FOWLER and MAZEROLLE were in the car?
BEASLEY: I'm not sure about FOWLER.
MADDEN: Uh, you're not sure about Mr. FOWLER, but you are sure about Mr. MAZEROLLE?
BEASLEY: And GREG MITCHELL.
MADDEN: And GREG MITCHELL.
BEASLEY: DON HARRIS.
MADDEN: Uh, there's no doubt in your mind, uh, at this time, that, uh, MAZEROLLE was in the vehicle?
BEASLEY: Well, I, I don't think there's any doubt at all. Of course now you know this was a long time ago. And I, without having records to refer to, it's hard, but, uh, I'm, I'm positive he was there, almost positive he was there.
MADDEN: O.K. To the best of your recollection
BEASLEY: At the best of my recollection,
MADDEN: MAZEROLLE was, uh, in the vehicle with HELENA and the, and the other individuals.
BEASLEY: Yes, uh, he was a close, uh, companion of HELENA's anyway.
MADDEN: Was MAZEROLLE, uh, HELENA's boyfriend, to your knowledge?
BEASLEY: Yes he was.
MADDEN: Had you ever, uh, arrested MAZEROLLE for any reason?
BEASLEY: Yes sir I did.
MADDEN: Uh, could you please tell me to the best of your recollection when and why you arrested MAZEROLLE.
BEASLEY: Uh, closest I can come to the date, now I know there's a file there on MAZEROLLE, but about fifteen days, I believe, before this MACDONALD case, uh, thing happened, uh, HELENA set MAZEROLLE up, and uh, I arrested him and her and another guy together, and a guy by the name of REZO (phonetic), driving, uh, REZO's automobile, and they had about fifteen thousand dollars worth of LSD with them. Uh, I arrested all three, and put all three in jail. Confiscated the car, and uh, charged REZO and MAZEROLLE, RO, ROLLE, or whatever his name is, with possession of LSD. And transported them. HELENA was charged but later released.
MADDEN: Was, uh, REZO and/or MAZEROLLE ever, uh, prosecuted for this offense, do you recall?
BEASLEY: Uh, yes they were. MAZEROLLE was gave, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, was given three to five years, uh, REZO was found not guilty.
MADDEN: You say that, uh, you arrested REZO and MAZEROLLE approximately three weeks before the MACDONALD murders?
BEASLEY: It was approximately that. I'm, I'm, now I'm guessing, uh, because, uh, I don't have the files, but I could look at the files and tell you. I know that file is there. I found that.
MADDEN: Was, uh, REZO subsequently convicted?
BEASLEY: REZO was released.
MADDEN: He was released.
MADDEN: Uh, but MAZEROLLE, uh, to your knowledge, uh, was convicted?
BEASLEY: He was convicted, yes he was.
MADDEN: And, uh, served time.
BEASLEY: He served time. I think he served about eight months out of a three to five year sentence.
MADDEN: After you arrested, uh, uh, REZO and MAZEROLLE, uh, did they make, uh, bond, uh, immediately or shortly thereafter?
BEASLEY: Uh, yes, I guess they did, I'm not sure. I, I put 'em in jail and, uh, I don't know whether they made bond or not.
MADDEN: Well, obviously, uh, at least MAZEROLLE had to make bond in order to be, uh, out of jail on February 18, 1970, is that correct?
BEASLEY: Oh yes, he was out.
BEASLEY: Yes, he was out.
MADDEN: O.K. Uh, at this particular, uh, point, uh, in the interview, Mr. BEASLEY, I have no further questions of you. If you would like to make any statements at this time, uh, regarding your association, uh, with HELENA STOECKLEY and/or the investigation of the MACDONALD case, uh, you would be most welcome to, uh, volunteer anything at this particular point.
BEASLEY: Well, uh, the night I stopped them, or, they pulled into a driveway at 1108 Guard Street. Uh, I pulled in, blocked the driveway, and called HELENA over to me. Uh, I was dressed in a fatigue jacket, or something, I don't know how I was dressed, but, uh, she came towards me, and they did, too. So, uh, I reached for my pistol and they turned and went back. Uh, she said go back, it's alright. So she talked, and I told her, I said, HELENA, I said, uh, uh, you, you heard about the MACDONALDs being killed, or this family being killed at Fort Bragg, uh, do, uh, you know anything about it? And, uh, she laughed and she, uh, giggled a little bit. She was a little bit high. And, uh, I said, uh, the descriptions that he gave fit you and, uh, your friends I've been seeing you with, to a T, it fits you to a T. And, uh, we stayed there and talked a little bit, and she, uh, said, uh, oh, I think I was there, BEASLEY, I think I was there. Then she backed off and almost started crying. And I said well now if you don't know, I said, uh, you better, if you weren't there, you say. If you don't know, you say. Or if you weren't there you say. She said I can't say, because I think I was there. I said well now, you got to be sure, because this thing is a serious thing, it's not going to stop here. I said you're going to be questioned later. I said I'm not, uh, this thing happened on Post. I said I can't, uh, go too deeply into it, because it's not in my jurisdiction, but you will be questioned later. And, uh, I stayed there, I called for CID to come out, and I stayed there, I guess about, hour, fifteen minutes, something like that. And nobody ever showed up. I called back to the police station and asked them had they ever contacted CID. They said they had been notified. And, uh, they never showed up, and they were getting, they were in and out and they getting rambunctious and wanting to go, and me having no authority to hold them, I couldn't hold them. She said they want to leave, and they've got to go to Fort Bragg, they got to do this, and I said well I can't hold them anyway. Let them go, so I let them go. But I had their names, most of their names, written down in my folder, you know, on my pad. In fact I had the registration of one of the cars, in my folder. And I don't know where that folder is, or what happened to it.
MADDEN: Uh, during this period of time, Mr. BEASLEY, when you first became involved in this investigation. uh, you learned of the MACDONALD murders and uh, to the best of my recollection, uh, you contacted, or initiated contact, uh, with HELENA STOECKELY in view of the fact that, uh, she basically met the description of the alleged MACDONALD murderers, uh, noting that the original, uh, description was furnished by Doctor MACDONALD, is that correct?
BEASLEY: Uh, that's correct. Now a lot, uh, the word "hippie" came in, a group of hippies, uh, came into this thing. And everybody was looking for long-haired people. The description that was given to me was not long hair. The only group, in that, the only one in that group that looked like a hippie was HELENA.
MADDEN: You're talking now, Mr. BEASLEY, uh particularly about the group of individuals, uh, who assoc, who associated with HELENA.
MADDEN: Is this correct?
BEASLEY: Who I'd seen her with on many occasions. And I arrested some of them.
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY, uh, during 1970, uh, in the general atmosphere in Fayetteville, North Carolina, were not there numerous, uh, hippie type individuals, uh, who basically, uh, met the, uh, description of the murderers?
BEASLEY: Well, uh, yeah, I guess there could have been, but, uh, what, uh, the information I got, were uh, that a group of hippies broke in. O.K., when I got the call from Captain MELVIN, he called me at home and asked me, uh, did I know of anybody that would fit the description. I said uh, it sounds to me like your next-door neighbor. Now that's after he gave me the description of all of them. And I didn't think of long hair at all. And that's the way, uh, a person usually thinks of a hippie is long hair and stuff like that. And, uh, then he talked about blonde hair and uh I'd seen HELENA the night before with this blonde wig on and with the floppy hat and the boots. She always wore that.
MADDEN: During this, uh, particular time frame, Mr. BEASLEY, uh, you were employed as a Detective with the Fayetteville, North Carolina, Police Department, primarily involved, uh, in the investigation of, uh, narcotic type violations, is that correct?
BEASLEY: That is correct.
MADDEN: During this time frame, uh, were there not numerous hippie type individuals, uh, in Fayetteville, North Carolina, who basically, uh, met the, uh, descriptions of the alleged suspects as furnished by Doctor MACDONALD?
BEASLEY: Uh, hippie type?
BEASLEY: No, uh, that's why I picked, well now there was, there was people there that would have fitted the description, but they didn't look like hippies. Uh, that's why I personally, distinctly, I, in fact I mentioned to Captain MELVIN, I said that sounds like your next-door neighbor. In fact there was one house between Captain MELVIN and this girl, and he says you know it does. And he says I figured if anybody in town knew of anybody like this, you would.
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY, at this particular time, shortly after the MACDONALD murders occurred, uh, is it not correct that numerous law enforcement officers were cooperating, uh, in an effort to identify and locate, uh, the suspects, uh, responsible for the MACDONALD murders?
BEASLEY: They were. Yes sir.
MADDEN: Were there not, uh, numerous individuals, uh, picked up and detained, uh, for questioning, uh, by various law enforcement authorities?
BEASLEY: Yes sir.
MADDEN: Did many of these individuals, uh, meet the general, uh, uh, descriptions of the suspects, uh, provided by Doctor MACDONALD?
(End of tape four)
(Beginning of tape five)
BEASLEY: Yes there was several people picked up, and uh, brought in, most of them was long-haired. Uh, now there was some, some others picked up and brought in, but I, I cannot describe them, there was so many, there was so many of them that was brought in.
MADDEN: When you say so many, would you say, uh, a hundred, two hundred, three hundred people, uh, who were questioned, or
MADDEN: -picked up as being, uh, possibly, uh,
BEASLEY: I, I cannot say how many that the other officers picked up and brought in. I, I don't know. But I do know they, they were being brought in uh, at, at intervals. They were always coming in. But most of them were long-haired, uh, that I recall. Uh, now we had worked with CID on this thing, and uh, we get a tip on a house, and we would go to a house, in fact we went to one house where the long-haired, long-haired people, uh, hippies they called them, was there, and, uh, a steak was still on the on stove, it was still burning. In fact it was burning when we got there. They went in and looked and said this is not what we're looking for and left. Uh, now, I don't know what they were looking for. They said this is not what we're looking for, we don't think it has any connection. So they left. So, uh, that's when I, uh, uh, well that was during, during that day now, I had worked up to, oh about three o'clock that morning, and uh, when Captain MELVIN gave me these des-, the description of these people, I went down to the police station, and uh, in reference to information she had given me prior to, uh, this MACDONALD case, that there was a trailer out in Hickory Trailer Park, that was, uh, a big, uh, outlet for drugs. So, uh, she told me not to hit this trailer until she gave me the go ahead. And, uh, I went down, uh, on the information she had furnished, knowing that she was living there with this group of people, and drew a search warrant, uh, had a search warrant drawn, and we raided the trailer and found drugs just exactly where she told us they would be. And uh, there was no one home. So that's when I decided to go, after we, uh, marked the evidence and all, we went back downtown with the evidence, we marked it and put it away. And I went back home, went back to bed. Got a couple hours sleep. I came back to work, and I went back by STOECKLEY's apartment and she was still not there. So then we proceeded to patrol the streets, looking for more suspects. And so, uh, I went back to her apartment about twelve thirty. There was still no one there. And, uh, at about, oh I'd say 2:15, 2:30, they came in, maybe a little earlier than that. That's when they came in because they would come back there eventually. Because when, uh, after we raided the trailer, I knowed he wouldn't, uh, I knew they wouldn't go back there. But I did not base, uh, uh, the identification of the suspects that was given to me as being hippies. Because the only group of people there, alright only one person there that even resembled a hippie was HELENA. It was not, those other guys were, were neat, most of them.
MADDEN: During the time of the MACDONALD murders, uh, HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, operated as your informant, is that correct?
BEASLEY: She was very reliable, yes.
MADDEN: When she made the statement to you, uh, and I'm quoting you to the best of my recollection, I think I was there, uh, at this particular time, uh, was she involved heavily, uh, in the use of drugs herself?
BEASLEY: Yes she was.
MADDEN: Do you recall what type of drugs specifically uh she may have been taking?
BEASLEY: Well she was shooting up, uh, she sh-, opium, uh, heroin, anything she could get, I suppose. She, uh, was on LSD, uh, mescaline, anything she could get.
MADDEN: Was she, uh, "spaced out" on many occasions that uh, you dealt with her?
BEASLEY: No, not really, I, one night she came into the police station, now she was this night. About a week and a half, maybe two weeks after the MACDONALD kill, MAC, MACDONALD killings, she came into the police station, something she never does, she never would come down there. She never wanted anybody to know she was an informant. She came down, and, and, and said she had to tell me something, she had to get it off her chest. She was with another girl, and I cannot recall who the other girl was. But said she has got to tell you something, she is in a bad way. And, uh, I said well go ahead and tell me. I says, uh, what, what's on your mind. And she begin to tell me, and then she, uh, backed off and stopped, then she wouldn't continue. I said well HELENA, I said you, you're not in any, any shape at all to be on the street. I said you should be, uh, admitted for medical treatment. How 'bout me taking you to a counselor or try to get you into a hospital some place. And she agreed for me to do that. So I took her to a, uh, newspaper reporter down there who was a drug counselor at that time. And, uh, I turned her over to him.
MADDEN: You were present, uh, uh, with Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, during the interviews, uh, of HELENA, and were instrumental in getting her to go to California, is that correct?
BEASLEY: That's correct.
MADDEN: Uh, during the interviews, uh, with HELENA at various times, uh, she names various individuals as being responsible for the MACDONALD murders. Have you ev, have you ever, in your investigative efforts, uh, in connection with this case, attempted to locate and interview the individuals she names as being responsible for the MACDONALD murders?
BEASLEY: I might add, uh, she, uh - no. Because, uh, the night that I stopped them and when the CID did not come up, I, uh, uh, had to let them go. Of course I couldn't hold 'em. And, uh, that was the last time I se, uh, I, I seen these people. All except HELENA. I knew I could find her.
MADDEN: But since, uh, October, and December of 1980, uh, when you were present during interviews with HELENA STOECKLEY, uh, at that particular time she named, uh, as being responsible for the murders uh, several individuals, is that correct?
BEASLEY: That's correct.
MADDEN: Since those particular occasions, have you made any effort to locate, uh, contact, and interview these, uh, people she names as being responsible for the murders?
BEASLEY: No sir, I have not. Uh, I couldn't afford to do it on my own. Uh, in fact, I, I will say this. That I continued after HELENA, for uh, several days after the killings at Fort Bragg, and I was told by my lieutenant that that was a military, uh, crime, that uh, I had a job of my own to do, and to proceed with what I had to do.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. BEASLEY, at this time I'm specifically referring to after you obtained, uh, you and Mr. GUNDERSON obtained signed statements from HELENA in October and December, 1980. Have you made any efforts whatsoever, uh, to contact and interview the individuals she names as being responsible for the murders?
BEASLEY: I have not. I had no idea where to look.
MADDEN: At this particular point, uh, in the interview, the FBI has no, uh, uh, additional questions uh, to ask Mr. BEASLEY, and, uh, Mr. BEASLEY uh, feel free to make any comments you so desire uh, regarding this investigation.
BEASLEY: Well, on, uh, May 20th, HELENA called me at home.
MADDEN: Uh, sir could you please state May the 20th again.
BEASLEY: Uh, 1981, May the 20th, 1981, uh, she asked me uh, uh, uh, may I read, may I read this, uh, or or, should I go ahead and tell you?
MADDEN: Whatever you prefer, is fine, O.K.
BEASLEY: On May the 20th, 1981, I received a, a call from HELENA STOECKLEY DAVIS, that it was very important that I contact her in person in the town of Seneca, South Carolina, in reference to a newspaper article that had been published in the Washington Post, by Mr. FRED BARBASH (phonetic). She seemed very excited and upset. I told her that I would meet her the next day at a specified location. I made contact with HELENA as she requested. She then told me of the article that had come out in the Washington Post and how dissatisfied she was with the outcome. She stated since I had set the interview up with her at GUNDERSON's request, that she thought I may have been part of the plot to make her look like some sort of a crazed killer that acted alone in the MACDONALD murders. At this time I told HELENA that I had no such intentions and that I had no way of knowing how the story would come out. The only, that all I was, was asked to do was put FRED BARBASH in contact with her, and the only reason I took him to where she was at, is that she agreed on the telephone to talk with him, and that she was under no pressure to so. And that she was not paid for the interview, or was she promised that the story would come out making her smell like a rose. That I didn't even know what was going to be written, and that she told him the story in my presence and that I know for a fact that nothing she had said was amplified on. She was very angry and told me that she tried to help Doctor MACDONALD, and she had been as truthful as she could be, but this story made her look like some sort of crazy killer that acted alone in, alone in this thing. That for me to convey to Mr. TED GUNDERSON that she would not take this sitting down, and to tell him he didn't know who he was messing with, that she had ways and means of getting things done when she wanted to. I asked her what she meant by this remark and she stated that, well I may as well start pretending to be crazy again. She stated the prosecutors wanted to believe that anyway. I called GUNDERSON and told him of this, and I also went to the office of Mr. WADE SMITH in Raleigh, North Carolina, and told him the same thing. That she was going to say she gave the confession under stress and promises and that I had reason to believe she would do just that. After this meeting, I had several others with her and she indicated to me that she had not changed her mind about this, that if they wanted to play games, she would also. That was a statement she called me to Seneca to tell me. That was after the story came out in the Washington Post. Uh
MADDEN: Is there anything else that you would like to state at this time?
BEASLEY: Well, uh, this is, uh, some of the things she said to me, uh, I said, asked her, uh, why, why didn't she like GUNDERSON, what do you, why do you hate him so bad. Uh, she stated he was a member thought he was a member of the Mafia. She was promised lots of money, that she was promised a contract for a movie and a book. That she was promised immunity from prosecution. That was given money to spend by GUNDERSON. That she wanted nothing to do with Lawyer SMITH, and she, uh, intimated that, uh, he was MACDONALD's lawyer. Made an attempt to get in touch with me by phone since this has happened, since she has done this. Uh, apparently I guess she's gone to the authorities I don't know, but app-, sin-, oh, and in fact I got the telephone bill at home, I kept it. And, uh, wants me to back her up in what she's saying. And, uh, that's about the size of that.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. BEASLEY, uh, do you have any contractual arrangements with HELENA STOECKLEY or anyone else uh regarding a possible book and/or movie to be uh prepared regarding the MACDONALD case?
BEASLEY: Yes, sir, uh, FRED BOST. About, it was almost six months after the confession was made, uh, Mr. FRED BOST, uh, who was a newspaper reporter at uh, in Fayetteville, had, uh, made a proposition to HELENA to write a story of her life. And our association together back during the 70's, 60's and 70's, back in that period. And, uh, he, uh, told her that she, uh, he thought it would make an inter, interesting book and he was going to print it as she told it, because, and if it was the truth. And, uh, she agreed to this. He asked her about it twice. And she said I will if, if he'll sign it. I said well I, I don't have no objection to signing it. And so, uh, according to contract, she was supposed to have gotten 20 percent of the proceeds, if the book, you know sold, whatever. Now that was about, almost six months after she had given these confessions.
MADDEN: But the book would be basically about the uh MACDONALD case, is that correct?
BEASLEY: Well, that's not what, uh, Mr. BOST said. He said it would be based on the activities, activities and uh the life that uh, the drug cult, uh, the witchcraft and stuff that was going on in the area at that time.
MADDEN: But certainly the MACDONALD case
BEASLEY: Of course, certainly I imagine it would come up in there, yes sir, it would.
MADDEN: What percentage, uh, of profit, uh, do you expect to, uh, receive, uh, or specifically what is your contractual agreements, uh, what
BEASLEY: A percentage of 20 percent for each.
MADDEN: Twenty percent, uh, you would receive from the book
BEASLEY: And her, also.
MADDEN: And HELENA?
MADDEN: And would Mr. BOST, uh, retain the remaining percentage?
BEASLEY: That's correct.
MADDEN: So you stand in the position at the present time uh, to receive financial remuneration, uh, regarding this case, is that correct?
BEASLEY: Well, uh, according to that contract, yes.
MADDEN: Are you aware of any other contracts, uh, either for a book or a movie, uh, regarding this case?
BEASLEY: No sir.
MADDEN: Do you have anything additional at this point that, uh, you would like to state in the interview?
BEASLEY: Well, I, I, I will say this. Uh, now, uh, had HELENA been promised, uh, a movie contract, or a book contract or if she had signed one, uh, when she first made these statements, uh, now she signed this contract for a, for five dollars as a, as a good will gesture, uh, bind, to bind the contract. Uh, there's one thing that I couldn't understand, had she been promised a lot of money, or if she was sure she was going to get a lot of money, I cannot understand why she would sign a contract for five dollars when she expected thousands.
GUNDERSON: Meaning from me.
BEASLEY: Meaning from anywhere. GUNDERSON or anywhere else.
MADDEN: Uh, do you have anything else that you would like to add to the interview?
BEASLEY: I, I will, uh, yes, she says that she cannot (short pause) She told me that she could not go to prison, that, uh, she had read, uh, a newsletter that was in, uh, published in the paper, that someone had sent to her, that Mr. ALFRED KASSAB said don't the poor girl know she could go to prison for life, and don't they know that they could get her for perjuring herself during the trial if she was proven guilty. And she said I am not and I cannot go to jail.
MADDEN: Is there anything else that you would like to
BEASLEY: That's, that's all I have to add.
MADDEN: At this point in the interview, uh, uh, Mr. GUNDERSON would again like to, uh, make some additional, uh, comments. Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON.
GUNDERSON: Yes sir. And I'd like to point out that in addition to furnishing us with three signed confessions, she's also given a confession on tape to Mr. FRED BOST, and neither I, I certainly wasn't there, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY was there. She also gave a, confessed to the crime to Mr., BOST, of course is with the Fayetteville paper, Mr. FRED BARBASH with the Washington Post. And PRINCE told me just last night, although she would not go on tape with BARBASH, uh, at the conclusion of BARBASH's interview with STOECKLEY, uh, what were the words, what did he ask her, uh, PRINCE, and this is on tape and BARBASH has this in his possession.
BEASLEY: Uh, BARBASH asked her, uh, she said I, I, I don't want to go on tape, but she says, uh, I'll tell you just exactly, he says, well, I'll read the confession to you, or basically what was, in the confession. He says is everything that you say in that confession, is that true. Will you go on tape and say that. She said yes I will. He dated it and he, she went on tape and said everything in the confession is true.
GUNDERSON: That she gave us.
BEASLEY: That she gave us to the best of her knowledge.
GUNDERSON: Now this would have been in, uh, May or June, or April or May, to BARBASH, and to BOST would have been some, a month or so prior to that, is that right.
BEASLEY: Uh huh.
GUNDERSON: O.K., another point I
GUNDERSON: Excuse me
BEASLEY: Go ahead
GUNDERSON: Go ahead, you got something else?
(go off a second)
MADDEN: This will be Mr. GUNDERSON speaking at this point.
GUNDERSON: O.K., uh, PRINCE, did you have something else on that?
BEASLEY: Well I, uh, I would like to tell you how this came about, that, uh, she, uh, first, uh, talked about wanting to confess to this thing, if you'd like to hear it.
MADDEN: Uh, you're welcome to state anything that you feel is
GUNDERSON: This is prior, prior, this is GUNDERSON now. This was prior to coming to California?
BEASLEY: This is prior to coming to California, this is why she went to California.
GUNDERSON: I think it's pertinent.
MADDEN: If you think it's pertinent, this'll be, O.K., uh, conversation by uh, Mr. BEASLEY.
BEASLEY: Uh, HELENA and ERNIE, uh, DAVIS, her husband, moved to Fayetteville, uh, I don't have the exact date, uh, but they moved into Fayetteville, and moved in with a black man, at 215 McIver Street, in Fayetteville. They lived there with them for a short time and during this time, ERNIE and HELENA had a big fight, ERNIE beat her up. She went down to the police department, and signed a warrant for ERNIE for assault. I learned that ERNIE was in jail, and I had met him at the trial. And, uh, talked to him and I went up and asked him what had happened. I said I see that they got you for assault. He said, uh, HELENA says I assaulted her, and I didn't. I said well your bond is two hundred dollars. He said will you get me out. I said no man, I said you wouldn't stay here, you'll run. He said, no, he said I, I won't run, he said if you get me out I'll tell you something you've been wanting to hear for a long time. So, uh, I said, well, uh, I think I know what you're talking about, but, uh, will you tell me if I get you out. He says I will. So I got him out on bond. And, uh, I said now tell me what you got to tell me. And he sat down there and told me, he says she has indicated to me, through all the years I've known her, that she was involved in the MACDONALD thing. She's told me about it. She told me, uh, how it was done. She says that, uh, she, she writes pig on the bed all the time in her sleep, and uh, on the headbed, uh, board, and uh, so I said wait a minute. I said, uh, would you go to California and give TED GUNDERSON a statement? He said, uh, I damn sure will, be glad to. Said she put my, put me in jail. So I called TED and I asked him did he want to, uh, go out, uh, did he want him to come out. And he said he, yeah, bring him out, so they wired tickets.
GUNDERSON: And the two hundred dollar bond.
BEASLEY: And the bond. So, I, in the mean time, took a statement from ERNIE, on the way out there. So when we got out there, there, we had no problem with ERNIE, getting a statement out of him. He told me completely about her, her being afraid of ice picks, uh, if she heard a baby crying, she would run, uh, that uh, uh, she couldn't stand to be around ice picks, and then she would stop and start joking about having an electric ice pick. Said if we just had an electric ice pick it wouldn't be so much trouble to use. And I thought with statements like that, it, it should be heard. And so I took, I called and got, he said I'll wire your tickets. And so ERNIE went out, and I got his statement and uh, his words and then I took him out there and he amplified it, and he gave a 120 some page statement.
GUNDERSON: On tape.
BEASLEY: On tape. He was uh, and he was not, uh, given anything. And then, then he came, when he came back to California, I mean from California, to Fayetteville, he, uh, was supposed to show up in court. I said now if you show up in court, you don't have anything to worry about. I says, uh, uh, I won't be after you, but if you don't show up I'm going after you, because that bond'll have to be forfeited and it have to be paid. So he assured me he was going to show up. Well, he came back to Fayetteville, and he went right straight to, uh, this black man's house. And, uh, got HELENA and told her that the case had been reopened on MACDONALD, that she was in, she was in bad trouble, that they had to leave Fayetteville. And, uh, so when the case came up, I went down to court, the case was not called. I mean it was called and he failed, he didn't show. And, so I, found that, uh, the bond forfeiture had been, uh, issued and I went after him. And, uh, I caught him and uh, HELENA walking together. I got an off duty officer, uh, he wasn't off duty but he was on duty, told him I had him for bond jumping. And, uh, ERNIE and HELENA were walking together down off a little country road there in Seneca. And I pulled up and jumped out and I got ERNIE in the belt. And, uh, I said ERNIE you, uh, didn't show up in court, you did me wrong. And I handcuffed him, put him in the car, and she was standing there looking dumfounded, didn't know what was going on. And so, uh, I, uh, got an officer there in, uh, Walhalla, to accompany me back to Fayetteville with him because, uh, it was a little bit dangerous, I thought, to have him and her in the car at the same time, but, but, at first I didn't think she was going to come back. She said I'll meet you in Fayetteville, I'll hitchhike back. She told me, she said, uh, I, uh, don't know what you got him for, and I don't know what he's done, but I'll find out and I'll go down there and get him out. And I said well if you going to hitchhike back to Fayetteville, I said why don't you ride back with me, I'm going back, And he said no don't do that, don't come back with us, said go and hitch back, hike, hike back. So, uh, I got her in the car and she said I'm going anyway. And the other officer got in with us. We went on down to the police station, and uh, I told him, I says, uh, I'll give you the bond fee to come back with me, and see, and keep him off my back. On the way back, an argument began between the two of them, and he said, she said I do not know why, uh, why he arrested you, what did he arrest you for. He said well I'm gonna tell you. He said I made a statement against you to TED GUNDERSON out in California about your involvement in the MACDONALD killings. And, uh, she, uh, just clammed up, she didn't say anything, she said well what did you say? And, uh, I said ERNIE, I said, uh, you're the one told her, I didn't. And, uh he said BEASLEY what did he say, what did he, uh, say I did. I said I couldn't tell you anymore what he said than I would tell him what you said. And, so, uh, they got to arguing and they got to fighting, now, almost fighting in the car. And the officer in the back had to hold ERNIE back off of her. And so on the way, uh, oh I'd say about 90 miles out of Fayetteville, she said do you still want to talk about, about the MACDONALD case. I said well, yeah, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to talk here or now. She said you better, he told her to shut her damn mouth. He said you're gonna talk yourself right into prison. She said well I'm not gonna tell them anything you that you hadn't already told them. Said I want to tell the truth about it, so you, so I'll know that you hadn't told them something that really didn't happen, or that you had amplified on something that, uh, I didn't say, or I didn't do. And, so, uh, when we got to Fayetteville, I got ERNIE out of the car, HELENA got out on the right side, ERNIE was still handcuffed with his hands in front of him, and he looked at her and said, so this is it? She said yeah and he knocked her in the head with them handcuffs, and tried to stomp her and I pulled him off of her. And, uh, we got him in jail, and uh, then I said, uh, well do you still want to talk about the MACDONALD case? She said I certainly do. She said I don't know what he has said.
She said I want to tell the story like it is, so nothing won't be said that didn't happen. So I also got in touch, that's when I got in touch with Miss, well I tried to get in touch with TED and he wasn't there. I got in touch with Mrs. HUGHES, in California, and she, somehow or the other the tickets were wired to us from California, and she agreed, I was talking to Mrs. HUGHES on the telephone and telling her that she was ready to get it off her chest and was tired of it. And, uh, we went out there and she gave a, the confession.
GUNDERSON: GUNDERSON speaking. When ERNIE DAVIS was in California, I was talking to PRINCE on one occasion, and conversation was overheard by ERNIE, and I, very frankly I knew it was overheard, ERNIE was listening, and I indicated to PRINCE, didn't really say anything, but I indicated to PRINCE that there was a secret witness in the case. Uh, without saying anything more.
(End tape five)
(Beginning of tape six)
GUNDERSON: In my conversation with BEASLEY, I indicated that we did have a secret inside witness. Uh, and we, we do have a source, a confidential source, who furnished us information, this is in the report, concerning the movement and activity of KATHY PERRY. This source also furnished us pictures of, uh, that we later identified through HELENA STOECKLEY's assistance in the October interview, pictures of some of the people who were members of her cult. Uh, when HELENA STOECKLEY came back in October, I let her look at these pictures of these people, a big group picture that we obtained from the source. I asked her if these people were members of her cult. She nodded her head up and down, yes. Then I asked her to identify them, and she refused to identify them, by name. She then went through the report, went two or three pages on each side of the picture, obviously looking for the identity of the person who gave us this photograph. And it was shortly after that that she began talking about the murders on record, although she had talked about the murders on the plane to PRINCE BEASLEY en route to California in October. Uh, I don't have the page number that this group photograph is in, in the report, but the girl standing in the upper left hand corner is definitely KATHY PERRY. And, uh, we're not sure about the identity of the others. The fellow kneeling in the middle is probably DON HARRIS, and the girl, uh, sitting down in the front left is probably DIANE, uh, CZARIS (phonetic), isn't it, PRINCE?
BEASLEY: Uh, HEDDEN, I think, HEDDEN, VAN HEDDEN. This guy here is supposed to be known as STAN
MADDEN: Excuse me, this is PRINCE BEASLEY talking.
GUNDERSON: Excuse me, this PRINCE BEASLEY will be talking, and the man standing in the back in the middle.
BEASLEY: On the right side of KATHY PERRY, uh, is known as STAN, the Doctor.
GUNDERSON: O.K., that probably was along with PRINCE's (help yourself) - along with, uh, with the conversation and the confidence HELENA had in PRINCE BEASLEY was probably one of the instrumental reasons for her talking to us in the first place, and giving us the confession. Uh, I'd like to also point out, uh, that, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY, I have not paid PRINCE BEASLEY for his services. I have sent him some expense money, but, uh, because of the fact, I don't have any money, I haven't sent nearly what he has put into this. And, uh, from expense standpoint, he still has a lot, quite a bit of money coming to him. The reason, uh, oh, you ta, the, the, the question was raised about immunity from prosecution. Uh I have never promised HELENA immunity, nor has PRINCE. First of all we have no authority to grant her immunity, and uh, so I, that should not be uh, uh, an element in the reason, as to the reason for her furnishing us this confession. Uh, the reason I continued to work this case even though I cannot afford to do is because I, at this point, believe that Doctor MACDONALD is innocent, and I think that it's my duty to continue to work it. Uh, PRINCE and I are probably the only two people that can establish his innocence, based on our investigation.
As I said earlier the reason I have not sought out these other people, KATHY PERRY and some of the others, MITCHELL, FOWLER, and so forth, is because I can't afford to do so. I had hoped to bring the investigation to a point where a responsible Government agency, such as possibly the FBI or I don't know what other agency would do it, uh, would realize there is considerable doubt in this case and would check out some of these other leads. The reason I did not keep an interview log, I said I didn't feel it was necessary, and the reason I didn't feel it was necessary because I'm no longer a law enforcement officer, and as a matter of fact, in the State of California, I don't know about North Carolina, or other states in the Union, I'm not even required to furnish an individual of their rights, uh, in obtaining a statement or taking information from them. Uh, another very interesting aspect of this investigation involves the missing police records around the country. Through my sources and contacts, uh, I have learned that arrest records for some of the suspects have disappeared from police departments in other sections of the country, not only in Fayetteville, but also in Georgia, Florida, and in Arizona.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, at this point would you please identify specifically the individuals you are talking about.
GUNDERSON: The people I am specifically referring to, this is in the report, uh, are ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE, he was arrested in, I think Daytona Beach, Florida, and also in Marietta, Georgia. Those records are no longer in the police department down there, yet we confirmed he was arrested, through our investigation. And also, SANDERS was arrested, I believe in Arizona, but I'm not real sure about that.
BEASLEY: He was arrested in Arizona, and, BEASLEY speaking.
GUNDERSON: BEASLEY speaking.
BEASLEY: --And I might add another thing, uh, BEASLEY speaking again. Uh, as far as the files are concerned, and where they have gotten to or what happened to them, uh, I have no explanation other than maybe they were lost in the transition from one building to another. But, uh, when I came back from, uh, Nashville, Tennessee, with, uh, Mr. MAHON (phonetic), CID, I had my file folder in my hand. I opened the folder and gave Mr. MAHON some incriminating letters that STOECKLEY had written to me, prior to her, I mean after her leaving Fayetteville, wanting to know if the "heat" was still on, or what have you. Uh, but we went to Nashville, Tennessee, with Mr. MAHON four days, three or four days, the Chief of Police released me from my duties to go down there. I had to make out a report to be away from my job for that length of time. This report had to be filed, and I had to show where I was at. So I know the files have got to be some place. But where, I don't know where.
MADDEN: Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, do you have anything additional that, uh, you would like to add at this time?
GUNDERSON: Uh, yes, I have one other point I'd like to make, Mr. MADDEN, and that is based on the information that STOECKLEY gave us, the murders were committed by a sex drug oriented Satanic cult, uh, it appears that, uh, this particular night involved her initiation into the group. Uh, I have researched to a degree, uh, Satanic cults, and their activities, what they practice. They basically practice worship of the devil, and they practice human and animal sacrifice. As far as uh, uh, human sacrifice is concerned, uh, the number one priority, uh, for sacrifice in a human is a pregnant woman. COLETTE was pregnant. Uh, number two, are women and children, men are basically, uh, murders, murder victims. Uh, they don't, they aren't, they don't rank that high in the priority area. Cults are extremely active in two sections of the country. Uh, one is in the South, and Fayetteville happens to be one of the major areas for Cults. I've learned this again through uh research. And the other area, uh, main area, for the practicing of this type of uh, activity is in the California area. Uh, I have nothing more to add except for the fact that I'm filing a request, uh, under the Freedom of information and Privacy Act for copies of the results of all past and present contacts and interviews with me by the FBI concerning the Doctor JEFFREY MACDONALD murder case, and this includes the results of the interview today.
BEASLEY: BEASLEY again, may I say something.
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY
BEASLEY: Uh, prior, uh, three, two or three months prior to the killings of the MACDONALDs, HELENA told me that the Black Cult had moved into Fayetteville. Uh, that there was three houses there at that time. That they were spreading out and they were very dangerous, they would stop at nothing. They would, uh, uh, nothing would stand in, would stop them. And I asked her what she meant by it, she told me what, and then she explained to me about the black cats, and about uh sex orgy, orgies, orgies and things they did, and I tried to get her to get me into one of the houses. She says no I can't do that, because you'd never get out alive if I did. I said how about an informant, can I get one of them in there. She said no they'd spot him like that. So, uh, uh, she gave me information on one of the houses. I suspected as being uh what she called a cult house. We went into the house, uh, on a search warrant, uh, with information she furnished. We, uh, had to force the door, they wouldn't let us in. We had to kick the door down. We went in and the first thing I saw on the wall, uh, was, was a white wall. The first thing I saw was a picture of Jesus Christ, been drawn by, uh, was good artistry. And a hippie was down on his knees performing oral sex on him, on, on Jesus Christ. Our ID Bureau took pictures of this and, and uh, they had, they had altar in there, they had everything there that she said would, would be there, or all that was ordinarily in these cult houses. But we didn't find any drugs. And I later went back to HELENA and asked her why I didn't find any drugs. She said well that's the only one I've ever turned in and warned that you were coming. That was, guy was known as CANDY and later she identified as WILLIAM MURRAY SANDERS. And, uh, he was the renter of the trailer in Hickory Trailer Park that we raided, the day after the killings, the morning following the killings.
MADDEN: Was Mr. SANDERS involved in the murders?
BEASLEY: She says he was. HELENA says he was there.
GUNDERSON: No, no.
MADDEN: This is in, this is in addition to the other people you've named as being responsible for the murders?
BEASLEY: Wait a minute, she did, she said CANDY was there. Or gave the orders, if I, I recall correctly.
GUNDERSON: Who do you want to answer that?
MADDEN: I would like for Mr. BEASLEY to answer that. Mr. BEASLEY are you now saying that, that Mr. SANDERS was also involved, uh, in the MACDONALD murders, in addition to the people, uh, you previously named as informed by HELENA?
BEASLEY: I'm not saying that he was involved in it. I'm saying she said that he was mixed up with it. That he was the head man, that he was the man is what she told me.
MADDEN: So what you're now saying is that in addition to the, uh, people previously named, uh, uh, by you, according to HELENA, uh, that, uh, SANDERS was also, uh, present and participated in the MACDONALD murders?
BEASLEY: Well now, I'm not saying that he, uh, participated. I said that he was part of it.
MADDEN: Are you saying that he was, present, uh, during the murders?
BEASLEY: I'm not saying that, no.
MADDEN: What exactly are you saying regarding
BEASLEY: I'm saying that SANDERS, I'm saying that this, uh, house at 908 Hay Street, where we, uh, raided, where the picture was of Christ and the altar and all this stuff was at, was rented by SANDERS, and it was also rented by uh, the trailer park where HELENA and all these other guys grouped up at, was at Hickory Trailer Park and it was rented by WILLIAM MURRAY SANDERS, and she said that was CANDY.
MADDEN: Did HELENA STOECKLEY inform you that SANDERS was present and/or participated in the MACDONALD murders?
BEASLEY: No sir, she did not say he was there.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON would you have any additional remarks?
GUNDERSON: Yeah, I'd like to make some comments on that. Uh, there is some confusion as far as SANDERS whether or not SANDERS was involved. When we first started talking to HELENA, there was an indication that he may have been involved, I say may have been involved, this is during our oral discussion. Uh, HELENA indicated that SANDERS was part of the cult. Each cult is comprised of 13 members. But as far as the actual murders are concerned, she only placed seven of the thirteen members into the murders themselves, including herself. In all honesty, I'd have to say there's a possibility that not only maybe possibly, I say, maybe possibly because I don't know. Possibly there were more than seven in the house and I'm saying possibly there were some on the outside. But HELENA did not implicate any more than just seven people. That was very clear in the statement.
MADDEN: Uh, for the record, Mr. GUNDERSON, at this particular point, uh, would you again, uh, please name uh the seven people, as being present during the MACDONALD murders.
GUNDERSON: Uh, as I recall, BRUCE FOWLER, GREG MITCHELL, DWIGHT SMITH, DON HARRIS, that's four, uh, let me refer to my notes again. ALLEN MAZEROLLE, HELENA and WIZARD. O.K., is that seven?
MADDEN: Yes. Mr. GUNDERSON feel free to make any, uh, concluding remarks should you desire.
GUNDERSON: Well, other than, I mean, you do not wish to go into the, the details of the case or the points that, uh, I feel are significant to tie HELENA into the crime based on our investigation, so therefore, I can assume that there's no more that can be said at this point.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, we have no additional specific questions regarding your investigation; however, if you would like to, uh, make comment regarding any specific points of uh significance that you feel are pertinent to the investigation, please feel free to comment at this time.
GUNDERSON: O.K., uh, basically there is information in HELENA STOECKLEY's signed confession that I feel is very significant and that has been corroborated through independent investigation, and I don't need to go into a lot of detail, because as I said they're all in the report. But JIMMY FRYERS's telephone call to the house that night in which HELENA admitted in her statement that she answered the phone, JIMMY's prior statement and HELENA's statement are almost identical as to what transpired during the conversation. The hobbyhorse which has been discussed and rediscussed by all, in all areas and by many people involved in the investigation, and also by defense and prosecution, uh, in that when HELENA gave us a confession she said that she tried to ride the hobbyhorse, she couldn't the spring was broken. Uh, we took her to a polygraph operator and one of the questions he asked her was did you see, and of course the prosecution claims she saw the photograph in the newspaper, that's why that is not a significant point, but the polygraph operator asked her did you see the photograph in the Fayetteville paper, uh, that uh, showed the hobbyhorse. And she said in the polygraph examination she did not see it and the polygraph examiner says that based on his analysis she was telling the truth when she said she did not see it. Now if you've ever seen this photograph, and looked at it, you can tell, you cannot tell, I emphasize you cannot tell the spring is broken by looking at the photograph. Uh another very significant point that, uh, places HELENA at the crime scene that has never come out, but was developed during our investigation, was the German Shepherd dog that was tied to the clothesline. The dog belonged to JANICE PENDLYSHOK. She pointed to the precise location where the dog was tied to a clothesline. JANICE PENDLYSHOK kept the dog there at night on a regular basis. Another point I'd like to make is that during the confession, HELENA, we asked HELENA specifically if there was anything that she could remember, anything about the furniture or anything in the house that would place her there. She said the jewelry box. She identified the jewelry box as being on the low dresser in the master bedroom, pushed toward the back of the dresser, approximately a foot and a half from the left, uh, and we uh, obtained a catalog, I forget if it was a Sears Catalog, or what, she picked out the two jewelry boxes which the MACDONALD jewelry box most closely resembled, and they are very similar. The prosecution has made the statement that HELENA STOECKLEY had seen the crime scene photographs, which is true. She was shown the crime scene photographs in the presence of, uh, some of the, uh, people involved in defense of Doctor MACDONALD during the 1979 trial. She was eating a sandwich and she did not look at them in detail. She merely flipped the pages. So I don't honestly feel that from flipping the pages she would have necessarily noticed the exact location and details of the jewelry box. In fact, when you look at the crime scene pictures, it's almost, it's extremely difficult to locate the jewelry box on the dresser, but that's exactly where it's located. Another very significant point, again in HELENA STOECKLEY's signed confession, she pointed out that the getaway cars were parked at 310 Castle Drive. JAN SNYDER was at 308 Castle Drive. JAN SNYDER looked down, she described the car, the blue Mustang she, from looking at a, an artist conception of the four people who Doctor MACDONALD says were in the house that night, she described the person on the passenger side as ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE. She said the street light was, uh, shining into his face and that's why she identified him as, MAZEROLLE. JAN PEN, uh, SNYDER also said that when the car left that there were two cars and the military vehicle. When they left there, they ma, they headed up, instead of heading away from MACDONALD's house, they made a U-turn and headed toward MACDONALD's house. HELENA STOECKLEY has made the same statement, had made the same statement to us about the car making a U-turn and going back toward the MACDONALD house. Uh, we asked HELENA about the hair strands that were found in COLETTE's right hand. Uh, as I recall, this is from memory, not, so I can't say for sure, but, and I believe, I know this is in my report, our report, uh, she told us, uh, BRUCE, she thought it was BRUCE FOWLER, but before earlier she told, she had told PRINCE that she thought it was GREG MITCHELL, and she made the statement to, uh, PRINCE BEASLEY, that uh she saw GREG MITCHELL, uh, on top of COLETTE, struggling with COLETTE, but one of the areas, this, this concerns me because it seems to me like, uh, somebody should, uh, attempt to locate these people and compare the hair strands found in COLETTE's hand with the, uh, known specimens of these various suspects. Uh, basically, uh, I feel that these points uh, along with HELENA's statements tie her into the, at the crime scene. There's some other points in the investigation which I think are very significant. For instance, the artist conception furnished by Doctor MACDONALD. Uh, these are actual live people. I don't know where the Government feels or thinks that possibly Doctor MACDONALD could have invented these, these faces. He gave these artist conceptions hours after the crimes were committed. Also, there are seventeen fingerprints and fourteen palm prints that have never been identified from the crime scene. It seems to me like somebody should attempt to, uh, compare the, uh, fingerprints of these suspects who have been named with those prints that are still, I assume, in evidence. Uh, another significant point, again this did not necessarily relate to HELENA's signed confession, but it's significant to note, uh, three people saw the black male with E-6, six stripes that night, BEASLEY, Doctor MACDONALD, and one of our informants who, uh, we have developed during the investigation. Uh,
MADDEN: Mr. GUNDERSON, excuse me for interrupting
MADDEN: At this point, uh, do you have any objection to identifying your informant, uh, who observed uh this black male?
GUNDERSON: Uh, that's, it's not my informant, it's PRINCE's informant, and that would have to be up to PRINCE. It's between PRINCE and the informant. I think that before we could give you, uh, his identity, uh, uh, Mr. BEASLEY would have to talk to the informant himself to see if he's willing to do this. Uh, during our investigation we developed uh, two new witnesses, two new witnesses, who uh, HELENA discussed the murders with, and in both instances she, it was similar to the six that she had previously talked to. They said, she said, they, they claimed that she said she was there, she remembers being there, and then she backed down later on. We developed a new witness who placed HELENA at the Duncan Doughnuts shortly before before midnight that night. Uh, and by the way, this informant that we're talking about was the one I believe who placed her at the Apple House that night with, uh, the black male with the Sergeant Stripes, is that right, PRINCE?
BEASLEY: Uh huh.
GUNDERSON: Uh, we have ERNIE DAVIS' statement, which I think is quite significant. And ERNIE DAVIS puts her at the crime scene. Uh, we also, uh, located a man who is presently in prison, who HELENA contacted after the murders at one of the parks in Fayetteville, and uh, she said that she was there, that she was involved in the murders, to this man, who is presently incarcerated in one of our penitentiaries.
MADDEN: Would you identify this individual?
GUNDERSON: Uh, no I've been asked, uh, I will if I have to at the right time, but we have to take steps to uh, uh, make sure he is not harmed. He is in the penitentiary now, and I'd have to have the assurance that he would not be harmed by the inmates there. That was one of the reasons, uh, one of the stipulations in talking to us was that we would protect him, so that would have to be something we'd have to discuss later on. Uh, but he is an inmate at the present time and he identified from the artist conceptions, uh, a person with HELENA that day, when HELENA discussed the murders with him, as ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE, and MAZEROLLE was mad at HELENA for talking about the murders to this person, uh, at the time that she was discussing them with him. There are also a number of other very significant points in the investigation which I feel the Government should review, or somebody should review, and these are very clearly defined and outlined in my leads which are on the, at the end, I think Volume One, and also the end of Volume Four. Uh, for instance, uh, according to a University of Illinois criminologist who visited the crime scene, during the trial in 1979, evidence remains at the crime scene. There's a fingerprint on the wall above the couch, and there is a splinter of wood in the master bedroom which was never taken into evidence by the Government. There is also a closet full of candles labeled evidence which are sitting out there, were sitting out there at the time. Those are the points I'd like to make. There are a number of other points, uh, I can make, but I won't at this time in the interest of, uh, brevity and uh, but everything is very well outlined in the report, which you have in your possession.
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, uh, I do have, uh, a couple brief questions here I would like to go over with you, in, uh, response to uh some of your previous, uh, statements, uh, you make reference to a hobbyhorse and a photograph of a hobbyhorse, uh, which you attribute, uh, some significance to as, uh, regarding HELENA, and her knowledge of a particular hobbyhorse. Uh, is it your recollection and/or knowledge, uh, that HELENA did not, uh, observe any photograph of a hobbyhorse, uh, prior to her testifying in Federal court in August, or 1979?
GUNDERSON: That's right. And the polygraph operator substantiates that.
MADDEN: Uh, are you not aware uh, that a photograph of the hobbyhorse, uh, uh, contained in the MACDONALD, uh, apartment was displayed to HELENA, uh, by Doctor MACDONALD's counsel prior to her testimony in Federal Court in August of 1979?
GUNDERSON: I'm not aware of that. But my point is, whether it was displayed in the trial of '79 or not, uh, she said that the hobbyhorse spring was broken prior to the time that photograph was displayed to her by the, uh, during the trial of '79, and as you recall the prosecution claimed that she had an opportunity to review that photograph prior to that date, and that's why, according to the prosecution, she, they feel that she had knowledge that the spring was broken. But what I'm saying is, that based on a statement from HELENA STOECKLEY, that she did not, and this is in our statement, she did not view that photograph in the paper, she says she didn't. We put her on the polygraph and the polygraph operator asked her that specific question. He said that when she said no she did not view that picture, that she was telling the truth.
MADDEN: But specifically are you aware or do you have knowledge that this particular photograph in any form was displayed to her, uh, by Doctor MACDONALD's counsel prior to her testimony in Federal Court?
GUNDERSON: No, I'm not aware that that was displayed to her, but I don't think that's significant, because the photograph was in the papers a few days after the murders, and she told other people immediately after the murders that she tried to ride the hobbyhorse, but she couldn't because the spring was broken. So the fact that it was displayed in '79 is not significant at all.
(End tape six, beginning tape seven)
MADDEN: Uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, I have one additional, uh, question for you. Uh, during your investigation you've indicated that, uh, you, uh, conducted, uh, a neighborhood uh investigation, uh, regarding the MACDONALD, uh, crime, and that you have interviewed uh JAN SNYDER who previously resided at 308 Castle Drive in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's right. First of all, I did not conduct a neighborhood investigation. I attempted to identify the former neighbors with the intent of interviewing them. The only one I really found was JAN SNYDER.
MADDEN: In your investigation, you did determine that, uh, she did previously reside at 308 Castle Drive?
GUNDERSON: I did.
MADDEN: Uh, in your interview with, uh, Mrs. SNYDER, uh, you previously stated that, uh, for some reason, uh, she observed a vehicle, uh, outside her residence during the early morning hours of February 17th, 1970, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's correct.
MADDEN: Uh, would you, at this time, uh, again describe the vehicle which she observed.
GUNDERSON: I'll be glad to. Let me go to the report.
MADDEN: Uh at this point in the interview, uh, uh, Mr. GUNDERSON, I'm referring specifically, uh, to one vehicle, uh, allegedly parked outside of her residence, a blue Mustang?
GUNDERSON: That's right. She said there was a blue Mustang, another vehicle, and a military jeep that was out there.
MADDEN: Uh, Mrs. SNYDER, uh, according to your interview, allegedly looked out of her window, observed this vehicle and an occupant in the vehicle, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's right, uh huh.
MADDEN: And she has, since that time, uh, positively identified an individual as being in that blue Mustang, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's right.
MADDEN: And may I ask again, uh, for the record, uh, who was this individual?
GUNDERSON: Uh, JAN SNYDER was shown the artist conceptions, that Doctor MACDONALD furnished hours after the murder, and she identified the passenger on the, the person on the passenger side of the blue Mustang as ALLEN P. MAZEROLLE. She said the street light shone down on his face, and that's why she remembers him so well.
MADDEN: Mr. GUNDERSON, you have been, uh, to the residence at 308 Castle Drive, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's right, we were in front of it. Uh huh.
MADDEN: Can you tell me approximately, uh, how far, uh, the vehicle, uh, the blue Mustang, would be, uh, from, uh, the closest, uh, observation point that JAN SNYDER may have?
GUNDERSON: Uh, well, uh, it would be, I, I'd hesitate to give you feet, the number of feet, because uh, I'd have to go out and measure it to be accurate, but the, uh, house is located, uh, a reasonable, very close distance from the street, and uh, the uh, car, the car was parked, uh, on the street, she was on the second floor, it was not, uh, such a distance that it could not, she could not have identified him. I don't think there's any question about this identity. And she, all I know is what she told me. She said that she identified him and that, uh, that it was a distance whereby she could based on the conditions that night. In that the street light shone on the face of the man, and uh, and uh, the car was parked in such a position that she could see the face.
MADDEN: There's no question in your mind, at this time, uh, that she was in a position, uh, which would uh, clearly, uh, enable her to identify uh ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE as being the occupant of the blue Mustang?
GUNDERSON: Well, she says that she did, and, uh, from looking at the house and where the car was parked, I'd say it's very possible, yeah. And probable and I believe what she said is true. There's no reason for her not to identify him, if she, if she saw him.
MADDEN: Uh, do you have any information and/or knowledge that, uh, MAZEROLLE, uh, was actually the occupant of this vehicle?
GUNDERSON: No, uh, that's a good question. We do not have any knowledge as to the, uh, exact automobiles that the, each subject jumped into when they left the scene. We don't have that knowledge. HELENA herself wasn't sure about that, was confused. All she said was that they, they ran from the house, jumped into the various automobiles, and they left. Uh, and sh-, and when, and when we talked to her, she made the statement, uh, they were, there was confusion as they left the house, uh, and it's very possible that, uh, that she didn't know which house, which car which subject got, entered into when they left.
MADDEN: Uh, did Mrs. SNYDER observe uh anyone in any vehicle outside of her residence on 2/17/70, uh, other than ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE?
GUNDERSON: No she did not. That was the only one that she identified.
MADDEN: Do you have any reason to, uh, doubt, uh, her accuracy in identifying uh, MAZEROLLE?
GUNDERSON: I have no reason to doubt it, no, I mean all I know is as an investigator I talked to her, I showed her the artist conceptions, she says that man was in the blue Mustang, on the passenger's side. I mean there's no reason for me to doubt. All I, I can tell you is what she told me, and this is in a statement.
MADDEN: Do you have a photograph of ALLEN PATRICK MAZEROLLE?
GUNDERSON: I do not have a photograph of him.
MADDEN: Then it, uh, then the indication is at, at this point that you have identified uh, MAZEROLLE purely from an artist conception, is that correct?
GUNDERSON: That's right. But, I'd like to point out that HELENA STOECKLEY said that all three of those, all four of those artist conceptions are very excellent likenesses of the individuals themselves. And in fact she identified them from them.
MADDEN: When you're referring to an artist conception, are you referring to an artist conception that was prepared in 1970 or 1979?
GUNDERSON: I'm referring to the artist conception prepared in 1979. The difference in the 1970 artist conception and the 1979 artist conception is that Doctor MACDONALD, 1979, was placed under hypnosis and provided the artist conception which is much more in detail, and uh, although they are, they are still very strong simi-, similarity between the '70 and '79 one, artist conceptions, the one in '79 is much more in detail.
MADDEN: Thank you. At this particular point, I have, uh, no additional questions. if you have any responses you would like to make, uh, please feel free to do so at this time.
GUNDERSON: I have nothing further to say except, uh, I will submit this letter to you at this point, under the Freedom of Information Privacy Act for not only the interview today, but also the interviews where I, where I talked to you on the telephone.
MADDEN: That's fine. Your letter will be forwarded, uh, to FBI Headquarters.
GUNDERSON: I think PRINCE intends to do the same thing.
MADDEN: Mr. BEASLEY, uh, do you have any additional questions or would you like to state anything?
BEASLEY: No sir, that's all.
MADDEN: Uh, let the record show that the interview is, uh, terminating with Mr. TED L. GUNDERSON, Mr. PRINCE E. BEASLEY, at 1:33 P.M., on December 27th, 1981.
(End of interview)