The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
August 16, 1970: Captain Jeffrey MacDonald

 

(The hearing reopened at 0845 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that present in the hearing room is Mr. Segal and Lieutenant Malley, counsel for the accused; all counsel for the government are present, and the witness is present.

CPT BEALE: Captain MacDonald, as you heard the investigating officer; Mr. Eisman and Captain Douthat are not present. Do you consent to their absence at this time?

CPT MacDONALD: Yes, sir, the only counsel that I desire to have present through all questioning is Mr. Segal.

CPT BEALE: Okay, very well, your comments are noted.

COL ROCK: At this time I wish to make a statement. Let the record reflect that it has come to my attention that portions of Mr. Posey's testimony, given yesterday at this hearing were released to the press, and subsequently appeared in print. I note, however, that his identity was withheld. This is, in my opinion, contrary to the measures adopted by the investigating officer to insure the witness' safety at the specific request of the accused. Let the record further reflect that the release and publication of information was by counsel for the accused and that neither the investigating officer, the legal advisor, recorder, nor counsel for the government did not release such information to the press.
I remind you, Captain MacDonald, that you are under oath. Proceed, counsel.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q I believe we adjourned yesterday, Captain MacDonald, you were at the juncture where you had been taken to Womack Army Hospital. I want to pick up with some questions in regard to that. Did you have occasion at some point while you were hospitalized to observe your own wounds?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now would you describe to the investigating officer what wounds you found that you had in or about your head?
A On the left side of my forehead, over my left eyebrow I had a large contusion. The skin was broken slightly, it wasn't a cut, it was an abrasion-type thing. In the right hairline, in the frontal temporal region, I had a smaller bruise. I do not believe the skin was ever broken. At the left rear part, medically it is the left occipital, o-c-c-i-p-i-t-a-l region of the skull on the left side there were smaller contusions, what I think -- I think there were two.
Q How did you observe or ascertain those wounds on the left occipital area?
A Well, my head hurt and I felt them. They were just lumps there. It wasn't -- they weren't cut or anything, but I had some lumps.
Q Did you have occasion to observe or note any injuries on your arms?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, would you describe those to the investigating officer?
A I had what appeared to be a stab wound from a -- a sharp instrument. My own guess would be that it was a knife, in the left biceps, and I had three puncture wounds also in that area, which I would take to be ice pick wounds, but the best you can really say, that there were four puncture wounds from a sharp instrument.
Q Were there other wounds on your arms that you recall?
A Yes, sir, I had a large bruise with swelling on my left arm, roughly the same area, slightly above the stab wounds and I had a scratch on my right arm.
Q Now, did you have occasion to observe any wounds or injuries to your body?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe those, please?
A I had a puncture wound in the right lower chest in the 7th intercostal space on the anterior part of my chest, actually in the mid-clavicular line.
Q Now did you have any others? Just describe each one as you recall discovering or finding on your body now.
A Yes, sir. I had some scratches on my left pectoral region, the upper left chest with some, again the same type of puncture wounds, two or three. Honestly, they were not very impressive to me. They appeared -- I would have guessed them to be ice pick wounds, or sharp instrument. In the left upper quadrant of my abdomen, I had -- it wasn't really two separate wounds, it was one wound about three inches long, but it had two -- it was Y-shaped almost, with the Y pointing down, and it was what I would call a superficial wound, except that superficial is misinterpreted by lay people.
Q What do you understand as a physician when you describe any injury to yourself or to anyone else as being a superficial-type wound?
A Well, in this case, I didn't think it entered the abdominal cavity.
Q Is that how you distinguish between what you, as a physician, would call a superficial wound, as oppose to some other descriptions for a wound that entered the body cavity?
A That is correct.
Q Did you observe any other wounds on your body other than what you've described at this juncture?
A Yes, sir. I had a series of puncture wounds across my abdomen. It was again, these were the small puncture wounds that didn't appear to be bleeding, and in my own experience in treating patients, and from what I knew about -- in this case, and what the investigators told me they found, I would have guessed they were ice pick wounds, and there were approximately ten.
Q Approximately ten wounds?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now could you indicate by pointing on your body now and describing with moderated medical terms the location of those ten wounds?
A Yes, sir, they were to the right of, well, there was two to the left. Actually they were larger than the eight to the right, and the ones to the right were in the -- on the abdomen, just superior to the umbilicus, the belly button.
Q Now did you observe any other wounds on your body that you noticed?
A Yes, sir. In -- I believe it was my left hand, between my thumb and my index finger, in the web, there were several small little cuts.
Q Did you observe any other wounds?
A I don't remember any, no.
Q Was there anyway of ascertaining what the depth of the wound to your chest area was?
A No, sir, except it had entered the chest.
Q Was there any way of ascertaining the depth of any of the wounds that punctured the skin; those that you conclude were made by an ice pick or similar type sharp instrument?
A No, sir.
Q Why was it not possible to ascertain, or for you yourself to know how deep the wounds were?
A Well, first of all, medically speaking, you wouldn't probe them. There's no reason to probe them. Even if it does enter the abdominal cavity you very often can't follow the same track when you try to probe them, so you don't even -- you never probe them.
Q Well, why is it that you couldn't follow the track of a wound later on, say in the hospital?
A Well, the muscle is contracting again. This is through the rectus area, and the muscle just contracts and it doesn't leave a hollow column, for instance, where it went through. You can never follow this through again.
Q So if you insert a probe into one of these puncture type wounds what would happen, if you inserted a probe at the hospital into a puncture wound?
A You'd be stopped by the tissue, the fat or the fascia, f-a-s-c-i-a, which is a tough connective tissue covering muscle.
Q Is there any medical procedure that you are aware of for determining for a doctor when he examines a patient to determine how deep into the abdominal cavity or other internal portion of the body an instrument has penetrated?
A No, sir, you -- what you do in a stab wound in this case, specifically of the abdomen, you just observe the abdomen, and if the bowel sounds become absent and the abdomen distends, and/or his blood count drops, meaning, you know, he's losing blood somewhere, you operate on him, but otherwise all you do is observe.
Q Now when you say the abdomen distends, what do you mean in lay terms?
A Well, the bowel, in effect becomes paralyzed. It's a -- it's a reflex action and the entire bowel stops functioning and the bowel just starts filling with gas and fluid and distends.
Q And how does this appear on the surface of the body?
A The abdomen distends up.
Q Now while you were in the hospital, did you have any occasion to see investigators with the CID or any other law enforcement type agency?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you see investigators at various times from February 17th until -- up to and including April 6th, 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q At any time, were you ever asked to view a person or persons for the purpose of determining whether they resembled the people who were in your home when you were injured yourself and your wife and children were killed?
A No, sir.
Q Were you ever shown or asked to view photographs of persons who were being considered as suspects in connection with the killings in the home?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever have occasion to ask investigators in regard to such a matter?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe to the investigating officer what you are referring to?
A On February 26th, when I was released from the hospital, I had been told by Captain James Williams that they had my wallet, and that there was a funny story about my wallet.
Q Excuse me. When you said they, who did you understand that to mean?
A The CID, Mr. Grebner.
Q Go ahead and describe the incident.
A So I was released from the hospital and my mother and I went over to the CID office, and he gave me my wallet and explained that it had been missing for a period of eighteen hours, and that the money was gone but it didn't appear as though any credit cards were gone, and I took the wallet and checked the credit cards and there weren't any missing. I asked him why he hadn't apprised me of it being missing, and he said they were in the midst of it when they found it eighteen hours later.
Q In the midst of what? I'm not sure I --
A They were going to tell me that my wallet was missing, but before they got to me they had found the wallet. I then said to him, "How is the case coming?" and he said, you know, we are extremely busy, we are running down hundreds of leads, and I said, "Have you made any arrest?" and he said, "We have people in custody." And I said, "I heard that you have arrested a girl." And he said, "I can't talk about it." And basically he knew what I meant and that ended the conversation.
Q Well, what actually did -- did -- what were you trying to convey to him?
A I think it was obvious, I should have seen the girl.
Q Are you telling the investigating officer, at no time since 17 February until this very moment, have you ever been shown by any investigator or asked to view by any investigator any person who is a suspect, or the photograph of any person who is considered to be a suspect?

CPT SOMERS: I object to that. Let's let the witness testify, not the counsel. That's terribly leading.

CPT BEALE: The question has been answered, Mr. Segal, in addition to that, so let's move to another question.

Q Have you ever been able to personally check the contents of your home since 17 February to determine whether there are any missing items from your residence?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know at this time whether there are some items of value that are missing from your residence?
A We have been informed to that effect by Mr. Shaw.
Q How did that come about?
A Well, if I can just expound on this for a second. One of them being, you know, when I was questioned on April the 6th, I was told that nothing was missing and I never had even thought about it. It didn't seem important to me.
Q Excuse me, now, you were told by whom that there was nothing missing from where?
A Mr. Shaw.
Q Told you that --
A Nothing was missing from the house.
Q All right, go ahead and describe how you came to the conclusion that there were missing items from your home.
A Well, originally _ I don't remember the date -- I think it was in May, April or May, Mr. Kassab, my father-in-law, and Mrs. Kassab, my mother-in-law, called and asked could they have two rings that belonged to their family and they had given to Colette, and I said sure, and I wrote up a written request and gave it to the CID, and they subsequently returned two rings to me, one of which was one of the rings I had asked for, and the other one was a costume jewelry ring, not a valuable ring. I gave these to my mother-in-law and she gave them to Mr. Kassab, and they reiterated their request later, in June I believe it was, to have the other of the more valuable rings, and at this time I submitted another written request not only for that but for a ring I had given Colette, and --
Q Have you ever been advised as to the disposition of the -- either the second ring that the Kassabs had been after or the ring you had given to your late wife?
A I have just been advised that Captain Thompson spoke with my lawyers and he had checked for it with the CID agents and could not find either of the two rings.
Q Have you, yourself, other than the single occasion when you viewed your home in the presence of the investigating office, been back to your home since 17 February 1970?
A Yes, sir, I went into the storage shed one day with two CID agents to get some personal effects from the storage area, athletic things, sir.
Q And the storage area, is that located inside your house?
A No, sir. It is a storage shed behind the house.
Q Aside from that one episode have you ever been back in your house since 17 February?
A No, sir.
Q Were you ever told by anyone that there was in fact nothing missing from your house?

CPT SOMERS: I object. He's answered that.

MR. SEGAL: No. He has not answered the question whether he was ever advised, he said he had never been there to determine himself, and now I wish to ask him whether he has been advised to the contrary, and was the basis shown to him or made to him for such an allegation that nothing was missing. It becomes a matter of some concern as to motive and as to the reason why the government investigation apparently turned to Captain MacDonald, since they told him nothing was missing.

CPT SOMERS: He has answered that question. He's answered it twice.

CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled. You may answer the question.

COL ROCK: Please restate the question to get it back on the record.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir.

Q Have you ever been advised by anyone who has had access to your house that there are in fact no items missing from it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you tell the investigating officer under what circumstances and how you received such advice?
A I was being -- well, I would use the term interrogated on April the 6th, 1970, and Mr. Shaw said there's nothing missing from your house.
Q Did you inquire of him as to how he arrived at that conclusion?
A No, I did not. I was in the midst of a rather traumatic experience, and it never entered my mind.
Q Now there was testimony yesterday by yourself and by prior witnesses, that you had occasion to deal with persons who were involved in abusive drugs. Did you, yourself, ever inform military authorities that one or more of your patients was, in fact, abusing drugs?
A Informed -- I informed on two occasions to a commanding officer, but I think we'd have to qualify these occasions before they make any sense to the investigating officer.
Q All right, would you describe the two episodes you had occasion to refer to?
A On one occasion I was the emergency room physician at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, and a soldier from the 82d Airborne came in and he was comatose, and he stopped breathing. He had a respiratory arrest, and we resuscitated him, and over a period of about four hours he became stable, and I got in contact with Womack Hospital and arranged for an ambulance to transfer him with a medic in the ambulance. During the course of the four hours that I was working with the patient, he told me that he used heroin and morphine and had on occasion sold it, and this is a gross example to me of the wrong type of use of drugs, dangerous types, and he had no family. He lived in a trailer court next to Cape Fear Valley Hospital with another soldier who also used morphine and who, in fact, had brought him comatose to the emergency room. And I called -- I asked him who I could contact and he gave me no person other than his First Sergeant, and he was seriously ill. He had -- in effect, he had died at one point during the treatment.
Q I'm not sure what you mean when you say he had died?
A Well, his heart had stopped and he had stopped breathing. If we hadn't done anything, he was dead. We resuscitated him. And I felt someone should know so I called his First Sergeant that night. It was about 1 a.m. and I told him exactly what had happened and that he was being transferred to Womack and he thanked me for letting him know and he hung up.
Q Did you advise the First Sergeant about what the man had told you what his activities with drugs were?
A Yes, sir, I -- I said that he told me that he was a chronic and that he had sold heroin.
Q Was there another occasion in which you had opportunity or reason to report the use of drugs by a soldier?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe that, please?
A I was the emergency room physician at Womack Army Hospital, and a soldier came in from Special Forces, from the 7th Group, who was having an acute psychotic paranoid reaction, and his wife brought him in, and he -- I gave him appropriate medication and calmed him down, and observed him for a period of about four hours as the medication was wearing off and he was fine, and I questioned him at great length, and he said that he had taken two tablets, given to him by a friend who had told him that they would make him feel good. He didn't even know what they were. He had just assumed from the reaction that they were LSD. I called -- it was Saturday night and I called his commanding officer who was -- let me back up. When a patient comes in with this diagnosis, the MP at the desk logs the diagnosis.
Q The MP at what desk?
A There's an admitting desk in the emergency room and before a patient is admitted, the MP logs in the diagnosis. This is, I presume, one of the methods of finding out who, and where, and for what reason people are in the hospital. You have to tell their commanding officer that a patient is in the hospital. I went to the MP and I said, "Until I get this clarified, would you just write down that the patient had a drug reaction?" You know, the term drug abuse or overdose would be more damaging to the soldier if nothing ever again came out of this, and I just said, "Would you mind writing it down as drug reaction." He said, "Sure" and I called his commanding officer at home on Saturday night.
Q Do you recall who that was, by the way?
A No, sir, I believe it was a Major, Commanding Officer of Delta Company of the 7th Special Forces Group, and I asked him about this soldier, and he knew this soldier and he was an outstanding type, and we discussed exactly what had happened. I told him what I had said to the MP, and he thanked me for calling him and he would handle it from now on.
Q Do you have any idea of the dates of those two episodes or the approximate month in which they happened?
A The episodes with the Special Forces Soldier I think occurred January 10th. I believe that was the Saturday night I was the physician at Womack Emergency Room.
Q Excuse me one second. The calendar I have, sir, indicates that January 10th was a Saturday.
A The other episode was either in very late December or the first week in January. I believe it was in January.
Q We are talking about 1970?
A 1970.
Q On both episodes?
A Yes.
Q Go ahead. Do you have any better idea of when it was on that second episode?
A The episode at Cape Fear?
Q Yes.
A I have seen much more drug reactions, bad trips, as they say, at Cape Fear than I have either in the dispensary or in the one time I worked at Womack, I had seen this one drug reaction.
Q There was testimony in these proceedings about a lecture that took place in or about the middle of January 1970, which there was some discussion about whether communication to doctors about drug abuse of a soldier was privileged or not, an indication that what was said with a Chaplain was privileged, and what was privileged with a doctor. Were you familiar, or did you know about that lecture having taken place?
A I knew the lecture had taken place. I was not present.
Q You were not present yourself?
A That's right.
Q Were you aware or had you learned of the information that had been imparted to the troops in regard to this question of privilege?
A I was.
Q When were you discharged from the Womack Army Hospital?
A February 26th, 1970.
Q Now between the date you were admitted, February 17th and February 26th, did you have occasion to talk to or be interviewed, or give information to law enforcement investigators?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And thereafter, from February 26th until April 6th, 1970, did any law enforcement investigator come to you for further information in connection with this case?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have occasion to give information or attempt to impart information between February 26th and April 6th to law enforcement investigators?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did that come about, please?
A Well, I called Mr. Grebner at least weekly on the phone and in addition I stopped in perhaps four or five times, and at which time I would tell them some things that I remembered that I hadn't told them earlier, or they would ask me -- for instance, one time I went over to tell them about something that I had remembered. I think it was in regards to this drug overdose at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, and they re-fingerprinted me, but these were things always at my -- I went to them about five times between February and April 6th.
Q Now on April 6th, there was an interview in which you participated. How did you come to be at the CID office on that particular date?
A I had been calling Mr. Grebner roughly weekly, sometimes more, asking him how the investigation was going, were there any suspects, and what was the status of the things in my apartment. In other words, I have a complete apartment of furniture and at the time I was trying to move off post and I wanted the living room furniture for my apartment or I was going to sell it, one of the two, and on Monday morning, April 6th, I called Mr. Grebner at 0830 and asked him how the investigation was going. He said, "Fine," and I said -- he told me prior to check with him about the furniture, he would let me know. So I was calling, I said, "How about my furniture?" and he said, "Why don't you stop over, I'd like to talk to you about it."
Q Now in response to that suggestion by Mr. Grebner, what did you do?
A I went to the CID office.
Q About what time did you get there?
A Oh, about a quarter till nine, or ten to nine, Monday morning, April 6th, 1970.
Q Now you have seen a copy of the tape recording of your discussion with the CID on April 6th, have you not?
A Yes, I have.
Q Does that transcript show all of the discussions that you had with the CID on that date?
A No, sir, it does not.
Q What, if anything, was omitted and where does it fit in to the flow of these transcripts?
A The afternoon transcript was complete. The morning transcript has an initial part of the interview not transcribed.
Q Was the initial part of the interview that you say was not transcribed -- was that taken in the same room and in the same place as the balance of the morning interview?
A Yes, sir, I was in the same seat.
Q Please describe for the investigating officer what happened, what you did when you arrived at the CID office on April 6th?
A I arrived at the CID office at approximately 0845, April 6th, 1970. I went in and the -- someone said wait a minute, he'd check with Mr. Grebner, and he said go ahead in. I went into the room and Mr. Grebner was in the room and he said, "Have a seat." So I took a seat and as I was taking a seat Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory came in the room behind me, and they had a very solemn appearance, you know, somber or businesslike, maybe that's a better word. And I said -- I looked around -- I said, "Gee -- I just -- I didn't think it would take three people to turn over the keys to my apartment." And Mr. Grebner said, "Well, we'd like to talk to you about it first." And I said, "Fine." And he said he was the Chief Investigator on the case and that there were certain minor discrepancies that had come up and he would like for me to clarify them. And I said, "Sure." And he said, "Well, then just before we do, let me read you your rights", so that is when he read me my rights and then he -- the interview began -- the tape part of the interview.
Q Now was any physical adjustment made in the CID office after you sat down and started talking to Mr. Grebner from the way it appeared when you first came in?
A Well, they just kind of turned the desk light up so it was shining in my face, you know, it was -- yes, they had made an adjustment.
Q And you'd better describe that, please, because I was not there and do not know what they did.
A Mr. Grebner had a desk lamp and he -- as he was reading my rights -- he said, "Can we proceed?" and I said, "Yes", and he just turned -- turned the light up.
Q So that the bulb was exposed?
A Well, I don't remember that. I just remember that the light was now shining in my face, whereas before it had been shining down on his desk. I didn't notice specifically -- think of the bulb.
Q What was your mental attitude at the time that Mr. Grebner started questioning you on April the 6th?
A Well, I was -- I immediately became confused as to why he read me my rights, but I believed what he said. I thought he had some minor discrepancies that he wanted to clear up, and to put the interview in the proper perspective, Colonel Rock, I had just spent a very bad six weeks, you know. I hadn't been sleeping and I'd lost about twelve pounds and I had obviously been trying to figure, to forget what had happened that night, and I had never set down and gone over the entire thing with anyone.
Q Had you done that even in your own mind in the entire episode in a chronological order?
A No, sir. The best way that I found that I could handle what had happened was to think of little bits at a time. I had never set down with anyone and gone over the chronology, sequence of events or the full story of what had happened.
Q How were you able to obtain any sleep during that time of February 17th to April the 6th?
A Sleeping pills.
Q And how did you obtain those?
A I -- one of the physicians would write me a prescription and I would go and fill the prescription.
Q Did you have any concern about your own safety from February 17th to April the 6th?
A Yes, sir.
Q What if anything, did you do about it?
A Initially I borrowed a pistol.
Q You say initially. Would you indicate about when that happened?
A The day I got out of the hospital.
Q Which was?
A February 26th.
Q And what did you do with that pistol?
A Kept it under my pillow.
Q How long did you keep the pistol?
A I would say until after I had an MP guard on my door, when I was called a suspect.
Q Which was when?
A In April. To clarify that a little more, I had applied for a pistol permit the end of March, and the normal procedure is it takes three days and they kept putting me off, and it was now -- April 6th was about ten days after I applied for a pistol permit of my own, and I have never received it, so I just kept this borrowed weapon.
Q And to whom had you made that application?
A To the Provost Marshal's office.
Q And that permit was to do what?
A To buy and maintain a -- a pistol in my room.
Q You have not purchased any pistol yourself prior to making application?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever purchase a pistol during that period of time?
A No, sir.
Q I show you at this time, Captain MacDonald, exhibit marked A-31 for identification, a photograph of a drawing of what appears to be a young Caucasian female. Does that drawing represent or resemble any person you've ever seen?
A Yes, it does.
Q Whom does it represent?
A The person I saw in my house that night.
Q You mean the female person of the group of four who were in your home on 17 February?
A Yes, sir.
Q I show you a photograph of a drawing which has been previously marked A-36 of a Caucasian male with a mustache and ask you whether this drawing depicts any person that you recognize as having seen before?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe to the investigating officer who that resembles?
A This was the Caucasian male in the middle of the group of three men at the foot of the bed, at the foot of the couch.
Q Did the person who this drawing resembles inflict any of the blows upon you as you've described earlier?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you describe which blows or --
A No, sir.
Q Or whether there was a weapon?
A I am not sure if -- when I saw the blade that it was his hand or the other white male's hand, but one of the two, and both were punching me.

MR. SEGAL: I ask the investigating officer to mark two of the photographs at this time of drawings.

Q I show you at this time, Captain MacDonald a photograph of a drawing that has been marked A-40 for identification and ask you whether the drawing depicts any person or resembles any person that you've seen before?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who does that resemble?
A The white Caucasian -- the Caucasian male on the right side of the three people that I saw at the foot of the bed, foot of the couch, on 17 February in my home.
Q Now I show you at this time a photograph of a drawing that has been marked A-41 for identification and ask you whether this drawing represents or resembles any person that you have previously seen?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who does that resemble?
A It resembles the Negro male to the left of the group of three males at the foot of my couch on 17 February.
Q Now can you describe to the investigating officer how these drawings came into existence?
A Yes, sir. My lawyers had been asking me for months to speak with an artist and make a representation of these people, and since I was down here and this artist was in Philadelphia and I was financially extremely involved with legal fees already, I -- and I didn't think at the time that I could really make a representative drawing. I was arguing with them, and they would call me weekly and say we have the man, we are sending him down. I said I don't want to talk to him. I don't remember that much, it's five months ago and I don't have that good a recollection and they explained to me that every witness, almost every witness feels this way, and you have to see the technique involved before you pass judgment. And during the two-week recess we had they talked me into it.
Q Now would you describe the technique that was applied in your work with the artist in developing these particular drawings?
A Well, the artist would have two major things -- a hairline with hair, and a facial outline, and he would put them together and he would say, is this a rough outline of the face. In other words --
Q Excuse me. Did he make those outlines of the hair?
A No, he had approximately fifteen of everything. Fifteen sets of ears, fifteen sets of noses, fifteen sets of eyes, fifteen hair lines, fifteen facial things and he would put them together. First, he would say, did the guy -- did he have a terrific -- anything outstanding, and I would say no, and this was why I felt that I really couldn't have a good description, and it was so quick and the lighting conditions were not that good. And then he'd put some of these together and I'd say no, that doesn't look like him, then he'd put it together again and I'd say yes, that looks like it, and then he would say, were the eyeballs very heavy or very light, and I would say no, and he would pick out something in between and I'd say yes, it looks pretty good, and it took a matter of hours, and we ended up with what I considered to be two very good likenesses and two moderate likenesses.
Q Now which of the drawing represent what you have characterized as two very good likenesses?
A Well, let me clarify what I meant. What I meant was my recollection is better of two of the people than it is of the other two.
Q Now has the artist accurately portrayed the persons as best you are able to describe them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have any quarrel or disagreement with the way the representation as prepared by the artist, based upon the information you gave?
A No, sir. He made modifications on each of the final drawing to make them to the best of my recollection. So these are to the best of my recollection. What I meant was that two of them, my recollections are not that good.
Q Would you indicate please which two of the drawings are based upon the best recollection and best observation you made?
A A-41, the Negro male and A-36, the middle of the three males, he is a Caucasian male.
Q With the mustache?
A With the mustache.

COL ROCK: Those are the two you best recollect?

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: And this, although a light was supposedly shining on the face of the female?

WITNESS: Yes, because I saw her probably the least. It was the briefest glimpse and this is why I say I only have, really an impression.

Q If I may ask you this, Captain MacDonald, has any CID agent or any other investigative or law enforcement agent, ever asked you to participate in the preparation of composite drawings in the type that we have shown you here this morning?
A No, sir.
Q Would you be willing to cooperate with law enforcement agencies in preparation of such a drawing?

CPT SOMERS: I object to that.

CPT BEALE: Overruled, Captain Somers.

A Well, to be perfectly honest, I probably would have said the same thing to them, but I don't really think that I can give you a complete identification. But if they had gone through the same procedure I am sure we would have ended up with the same results.
Q If I may, I'd like you to turn for a minute to the April 6th situation when you were interviewed in the CID office by the three agents. At that time what were the nature of the so-called discrepancies you were asked to correct or explain to the CID agents? I don't mean to go into each one individually but generally, what were they asking or questioning you about?
A Well, until they told me that they felt that I had committed the crime, I thought the discrepancies were extremely minor.
Q Well, my question was not well put. Let me put it to you this way. Were you questioned at all about chronology of events, the order in which various things happened or the order in which you had reported to have done things on the morning of the 17th?
A Yes. First they let me give a narrative, roughly like I've given here, and then they asked me questions on the sequence of events.
Q Have you actually ever given a narrative relation of the events on the 17th -- of the 17th before April the 6th?
A No, sir.
Q Was that for the reason you have previously discussed here?
A Yes, sir. You mean a complete narrative?
Q A complete narrative.
A No, I did speak to agents in the hospital and I answered their questions but I never ran through step by step what had happened.
Q Captain MacDonald, at this time I want to ask you to look at an item of apparel and ask you whether this item, which is a hat of some sort, resembles anything you've seen before?
A Yes, sir.
Q What does this hat that I'm holding in my hand resemble?
A It resembles the hat that I saw on the female in my house on 17 February.
Q Can you describe this hat for the purpose of the record and I'll enter it as an exhibit?
A It is a large white-colored hat with a floppy brim, and -- well, that's it.
Q May we have the hat thus described marked as an accused exhibit, sir?

COL ROCK: I assume it's okay to mark on it.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, it is. I would suggest perhaps on the inside, sir, under the brim.

CPT SOMERS: You can just tag it.
Are we going to -- I'm wondering -- are we going to substitute a description of it? This is a pretty standard item, I understand, today.

COL ROCK: What does opposing counsel think?

MR. SEGAL: We may substitute a photograph of this actual hat. We could have one made if that's agreeable.

CPT SOMERS: We have no objections.

COL ROCK: Does counsel know if these things, these objects come in sizes?

MR. SEGAL: They do not.

COL ROCK: Do they stretch?

MR. SEGAL: I believe so. Sir, at this time I would ask to have entered into the record a photograph of a drawing of a white male, which has been marked A-40 and photograph of a drawing of a Negro male marked A-41, and ask that we mark a white felt hat as A-42 and asked for leave to substitute a photograph of this actual hat and that the photograph thereafter serve in place of A-42. Further, in clarification of the record's sake, as to the origin of the A-42 hat, I can state that it was purchased by counsel for the accused at a store in Fayetteville located at the intersection of Hay Street and the railroad tracks, approximately 11 p.m. last evening. There are a number of other hats that can be purchased without any difficulty.

COL ROCK: These will be so accepted in evidence and let the record reflect that counsel for the government, as well as the investigating officer, has had an opportunity to observe these items.

Q Captain MacDonald, you yesterday described what you believed to be the color of the boots on the young woman in the house on that morning. What was the color you described for us yesterday?
A My impression was that they were light brown.
Q Do you know actually whether they were light brown?
A No, sir. This was extremely fast and dark in the hallway. I just -- that was my initial impression.
Q Captain MacDonald, would you please indicate to the investigating officer what was the nature of your feeling toward your wife, Colette?
A Well, I loved her more than anything in the world.
Q Did you consider your children to be more important in your life than your wife?
A No, sir. I mean -- no.
Q Do you believe, from knowing your wife over the period of time that we've heard described, that she was capable of murdering your two children?
A Absolutely not.
Q In retrospect do you feel that, say from the period of time you've been in the Army to February 17th, 1970, that you had neglected your wife in favor of attention to the children?
A No, sir.
Q Was there any difference in the attention or concern or affection that you showed your wife from the time you entered the Army to February 17th, then from the period before entering the Army?
A No, sir, I just had more time to spend with them.
Q Did you devote the additional time that you had to your children or to your wife?
A To both.
Q In reference to any stresses or strains in your own life, how would you characterize the period of time you were in the Army, as opposed to your time immediately before that, in internship in medical school?
A By far it was the least stressful period in my -- the preceding five years.
Q What were your feelings towards your Army service?
A I enjoyed it very much.
Q Were you resentful or hostile of having to give two years of time toward military service?
A No, sir. If I had gotten the Berry Plan, which is a deferment for your residency training, then you would come in as a specialist, there is a distinct possibility that you never come in, and I had made the decision to volunteer after my internship to come in. I didn't have to come in until after my internship.
Q Were you under any compulsion or pressure from any sort to volunteer or agree to serve in Special Forces?
A No, sir.
Q Why did you elect to serve with Special Forces?
A Because it was the best unit.
Q Were you, in fact, fully medically qualified to serve in Special Forces?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have any prior medical condition which had any bearing on your fitness?
A Oh I thought you meant was my training sufficient.
Q I'm sorry, I didn't mean your medical training. I mean your own personal medical condition or history.
A No, sir, it was not sufficient to serve in Special Forces.
Q Why not?
A I had had a herniated lumbar disk, playing football, and I told less than the truth on my Army physical.
Q And what was the purpose of that?
A So I could go to jump school.
Q And did you, in fact, go to jump school and receive qualifications?
A Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, at this time we'd like about a half-hour recess.

COL ROCK: Why do you need half an hour, counsel?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, it's going to take me that long to prepare for cross-examination.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed for half an hour.

(The hearing recessed of 1020 hours, 16, August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1101 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that counsel for the accused is represented currently by Mr. Segal and Captain Douthat. Counsel for the government by Captain Somers. I believe at this time that counsel for the government will proceed with its questioning of Captain MacDonald. Is that correct?

CPT SOMERS: That's correct, sir.

COL ROCK: Will the witness please come to the witness table.

(Captain MacDonald complied.)

COL ROCK: I remind you again, Captain MacDonald, that you are under oath.

CPT MacDONALD: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Please proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Captain MacDonald, you did not actually observe your children as their injuries were being inflicted on them, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And you do not, then, know of your own direct observation that Colette did not inflict those injuries, do you?
A No, sir.
Q Now drawing your attention to Sunday morning, the 15th, what time did you go to work that morning?
A 6 a.m.
Q And where was this?
A In Hamlet Hospital.
Q And what duties did you perform at that time?
A At Hamlet?
Q Yes.
A Well, the first thing I did was I had breakfast and then I made hospital rounds for the first time that day. They are not busy in the emergency room so we also take care of the hospital. I made hospital rounds, and I saw my first patient about 10 a.m.
Q As I understand it, now, your tour of duty at the hospital was from 6 a.m. Sunday until 6 a.m. Monday. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And did you have an occasion to sleep during the day on Sunday?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when was that?
A I don't remember. I had a nap right off the emergency room sometime in the morning.
Q How long was the nap?
A Oh, half an hour or forty-five minutes.
Q Did you have any other naps during the day?
A I don't think so. I was reading some medical journals when I fell asleep in a chair for a while late in the afternoon, but not a real nap.
Q And what time did you first go to bed in the evening?
A Midnight.
Q How long did you sleep that evening?
A Well, I was awakened about twelve-thirty by the nurse to see a patient, then I went back to bed about one-fifteen, and slept until 6 a.m.
Q Did you have any duties at 6 a.m.?
A I checked -- I didn't have any duties, no.
Q Well, what did you do when you awoke?
A I checked a sick patient and went home.
Q And how far was it to home from there?
A Sixty miles.
Q How did you get home?
A I drove.
Q When you arrived at your house, what did you do?
A I showered and shaved while my wife made breakfast.
Q And what time did you eat breakfast?
A Seven-thirty, possibly, quarter to eight. I don't know. I don't know specifically.
Q Did your children eat with you?
A I don't think Kristy did. I think Kimberly did.
Q Was Kimberly in school?
A Yes.
Q And did she go to school that day?
A Yes, she did.
Q What time did she go to school?
A She went, I think, at nine o'clock.
Q What time did you arrive at work?
A Eight to eight-fifteen.
Q And where is it that you worked, or did work at that time?
A The 6th Special Forces Group Surgeon's Office.
Q Now that's not a dispensary is it?
A No, it's not.
Q And as I understand it, your duties that day were primarily administrative. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Did you eat lunch that day?
A Yes, I did.
Q Where?
A At home.
Q And what time was it that you went to lunch?
A Well, probably -- I don't specifically remember -- 11:30 is the usual time we took off.
Q And do you remember that it was probably the usual time?
A Yes.
Q And what did you do during lunch? Anything particular? Outside of eat lunch?
A No.
Q What time did you return to work?
A I assume 1 p.m. I don't remember specifically, but that's my normal routine and there was nothing out of the ordinary.
Q And your duties during the afternoon were ordinary?
A Right.
Q What were those duties? Do you remember what you did that afternoon?
A No. Actually the only thing I remember was having a conversation with the Sergeant who ran the boxing team on post.
Q What was your connection with the boxing team?
A I worked out with them occasionally and I was -- I was becoming their physician for the boxing team.
Q Had you boxed before that?
A Yes.
Q In college?
A Well, it's illegal to box in college. We had a boxing club and I worked out with them. I didn't actually ever have matches.
Q What time did you leave work?
A We played basketball starting approximately 4 p.m. at the JFK gym, the men from the office and myself.
Q How long did you play?
A Forty-five minutes.
Q Have you played basketball before?
A Yes, I have.
Q What did you do when you finished playing basketball?
A I went home, and picked up the kids and went to feed the horse.
Q And the children were at home at that time?
A That's correct.
Q And where was the horse kept? What location?
A I don't know the name of the street, but as you go off Bragg Boulevard towards Fayetteville, about a mile off post there's a Unique Shoe Shop and Unique Cleaners on the left side of the road, and it's the road next to it. You go down to the end of the road.
Q Are you speaking of Bragg Boulevard?
A Yes, off to the left, off Bragg Boulevard at the Unique Cleaners.
Q What kind of pony was this?
A It was a little Shetland pony, stallion.
Q And what did you do with the pony?
A Just went down to feed him.
Q How long did that take?
A Well, the weather wasn't good. I don't think the kids rode the pony that night, so probably it just took fifteen minutes.
Q And what did you do after you had finished feeding it?
A Went back and had dinner.
Q What did you have for dinner?
A I don't remember.
Q Was dinner ready when you got back?
A Ready or in the process of. We had to eat before six because my wife was going to class.
Q When did your wife leave for this class?
A Six-fifteen.
Q Did she have any books with her?
A At least a notebook. I don't know if there were any text books involved.
Q Where is this class that she went to, physically?
A It's about a hundred yards from XVIII Airborne Corps Headquarters. I don't know the street name. It's where the Finance building is.
Q Once your wife left, what did you do?
A I put away, put into the sink the dishes from dinner, and watched TV with the kids.
Q And how were the children dressed at this time?
A Well, I put them in their pajamas.
Q Did you bathe them?
A No. I don't believe -- now that's 50-50 chance because sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't. I don't have a recollection of it.
Q But you put them in their pajamas?
A Yes.
Q Was this before or after you put the dishes in the kitchen?
A It probably would have been after.
Q Well, what time was it, do you remember, that you put the dishes in the sink?
A Six-fifteen, just as we finished dinner.
Q And then you say you watched television with the children?
A Right.
Q Did you watch children's shows or what did you watch, not by name?
A Well, we weren't just lying there watching television. I was reading to the kids basically, and -- until seven o'clock when Kristy went to bed.
Q Did you take her to bed?
A Yes.
Q And did you give her anything such as a bottle?
A Yes, I -- she usually went to bed with a bottle.
Q What kind of a bottle is this? Is this regular milk or chocolate milk?
A She usually had chocolate milk. She almost always had chocolate milk, so I say that just because that's what I always made her. I don't have a recollection of doing something any different.
Q I see. And thereafter when you had put Kristy to bed, what did you do?
A I went back in the living room on the floor and fell asleep until Kimmie woke me up for Laugh-In.
Q What was Kimmie doing when you fell asleep?
A She was sitting there playing with a -- books or crayons or something.
Q What time was Laugh-In? Do you remember?
A 8 p.m.
Q And Kimmie woke you up?
A Yes.
Q Where were you sleeping?
A On the floor in the living room.

COL ROCK: Did you say Kimmie woke you up laughing?

WITNESS: No, no. For Laugh-In, the TV show. That was her favorite TV show and we always watched it together on Monday nights and she had noticed that I had dozed off and woke me up when it came on.

Q Did you watch the show together?
A Yes.
Q Did you do anything else during that time the show was running?
A No.
Q And when was that show over?
A 9 p.m.
Q When did Kimmie go to bed?
A 9 p.m.
Q Did you take her?
A Yes, well, yes.
Q Did you do anything special when you took Kim to bed?
A Nothing out of the ordinary.
Q And how was she dressed? Pajamas or nightie or --
A I really don't remember. She had plenty of both and I don't remember which one I put on her.
Q And what did you do after you put Kim to bed?
A I went back and watched television.
Q And what did you watch? Do you know?
A Well, I think it was Bob Hope -- the Bob Hope Special. It was some kind of musical variety show, and I think he had a special that night rather than the schedule as shown.
Q How were you dressed at this time?
A I think that I had probably gotten into pajamas. The only reason I say that is because I had been playing basketball and when I come home from that I usually shower and change and since I wasn't going to be out that evening, I probably put pajamas on.
Q But you are not sure?
A No.
Q When did your wife come home?
A Between nine-thirty and a quarter to ten.
Q What was the first thing she did when she came home?
A Put the milk in the refrigerator.
Q Did she spend any time in the kitchen?
A Not that I remember. She was just bustling around and, putting away her books and what she had brought at Mallonee Village.
Q And what did she do once she had done all this? Bustling around, putting things away.
A Well, I think she changed into her pajamas and came out to the living room.
Q Did she take a shower?
A I don't think so. I don't think she took a bath that night.
Q And as I understand it, you don't remember what kind of pajamas she was wearing.
A Right.
Q Did she usually wear pajamas as opposed to a nightgown or a nightie or something?
A No, I mean -- not usually, though she had both and again it was a 50-50 thing, same as Kimmie.
Q But you recall that these were pajamas?
A No, I don't specifically recall that. I really don't know.
Q When she came back out, what did she do?
A She sat in the living room with me there. Well, for part of the time, at least, she was sitting on the couch.
Q Where were you sitting?
A Where was I sitting?
Q Right.
A Well, initially I was lying on the floor watching television, and then I was sitting on the couch for a while.
Q What did you talk about?
A Nothing that stands out in my mind. I --
Q Did you talk about her class?
A Briefly.
Q And what did that conversation consist of?
A She just mentioned that she thought her professor was a -- was good and that she enjoyed the class and they got into a lot of class discussions.
Q What kind of class was it, do you know?
A Child Psychology class.
Q You remember it now?
A Now, I do, yes.
Q At the time you gave the statement on the 6th of April, you did not remember that, however?
A Right. Would you like to show me the statement, so I could -- if you are going to question me along that line?
Q No, not at the moment, I won't. And what else can you remember that you talked about between yourself and your wife?
A Really nothing stands out, at all. It was just a routine evening.
Q You didn't discuss your day's work? There's nothing else you remember?
A Well, we discussed the -- the possibility that I was going to Russia with the boxing team.
Q And in what capacity would that have been? As the team's physician?
A Right.
Q What shows did you watch?
A I really don't specifically remember. There was again, I think, another -- I'm not sure -- but I think it was another musical variety type thing from ten to eleven, until the news came on.
Q Basically then, while your wife was there, you watched television?
A Well, I -- television is boring to me, and I probably was reading my mystery at the same time I was watching television. That's what I usually do.
Q Do you remember the name of this mystery?
A No, it was a Mickey Spillane mystery. I had finished all the good ones I had.
Q You say your wife may have had a drink. Do you remember if she did and when this would have been?
A Yeah, probably around the time that the news came on. She often did this. We both often did it, getting ready for bed.
Q And then you watched the Johnny Carson show after the news. Is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Did your wife watch any part of the Johnny Carson show?
A Yes, she did.
Q How much of it?
A I don't remember specifically. I know we were into the Johnny Carson show when she went to bed. I would guess that she went to bed around midnight.
Q Did she usually go to bed before you did?
A Sometimes, not usually.
Q But she went to bed about midnight this night?
A Yes.
Q What did you do after she had gone to bed?
A I finished watching the Johnny Carson.
Q Which ended when?
A About 1 a.m. on the 17th.
Q And then what?
A I washed the dishes.
Q Did you wear gloves when you washed the dishes?
A I think I did.
Q What kind?
A I don't remember. She had several kinds around. There was at least two pairs on the kitchen sink. There was a heavy yellow kitchen type of glove and some of the surgeon's gloves that I had brought her home.
Q How many surgeon's gloves had you brought her home? Do you know?
A I don't remember. I had a whole box, the initial box they came in.
Q Where did she keep them?
A Either under the kitchen sink or in the closet in the hallway. The main closet in the hallway.
Q When you finished the dishes, what did you next do?
A I was going to bed, but I didn't. I didn't feel I was really tired or anything and I finished my mystery. I was in the middle of a mystery.
Q Now as I understand it, Kris awoke at sometime during this period, is that correct?
A Right.
Q Was this before or after you washed the dishes?
A I don't remember. I think it was before. I think it was when I was watching Johnny Carson, but I'm not sure. I think I remember the TV was still on and I turned it down when she woke up.
Q And what drew your attention to her?
A She was crying.
Q And what did you do?
A I probably -- well, I filled her bottle.
Q With chocolate milk again?
A Well, the only reason I say chocolate milk is because that's what I almost always made her. She liked chocolate milk, and I don't specifically remember making chocolate milk, but when I got her a drink, it was usually that, if we had chocolate in the house.
Q So you gave her another -- or refilled her bottle?
A Right, right.
Q Did she go back to sleep or did you hear any more from her?
A No, I didn't.
Q Then you say you finished your novel?
A Right.
Q What time did you finish your novel?
A I would say about 2 a.m.
Q Once you had finished your novel, what did you do?
A I turned off the stereo set, shut off the lights and went in to go to bed.
Q Now what was playing on the stereo set?
A I don't specifically remember. I think it was an FM station, because I remember -- I think I remember getting up to lock the station in, the station kept drifting off.
Q Did you do anything else preparatory to going to bed?
A Probably went to the bathroom.
Q Did you check the doors?
A No.
Q Did you check the windows?
A Not to go around to check the windows. I -- I probably looked in the kids' room to make sure that -- you know -- the rain wasn't -- especially Kristy slept right under a window almost.
Q Was it raining?
A It was raining some time during the night. I don't really know if at 2 a.m. it was raining.
Q You had a cat, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Where was the cat when you went to bed?
A I have no idea.
Q Was it inside the house, so far as you know?
A Yeah, it probably was. I don't remember.
Q Did you usually leave that cat in or put it out at night?
A Inside.
Q And did you brush your teeth or do anything of this nature before going to bed?
A I'm sure I did.
Q And what bathroom would you have used to do that?
A I think probably the small bathroom in the -- off the utility room.
Q Which means that you would have gone through the master bedroom?
A Right.
Q When you did that, assuming that you did it, did you notice then where Kimmie was? Or Kris. I'm sorry.
A No.
Q When you checked the bedrooms, did you notice that Kris was not in her bed?
A No, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said I checked the bedrooms. You asked me if I checked the windows, and I said that I would notice if the windows were open. I didn't specifically go around and check windows.

COL ROCK: Captain MacDonald, I don't think he's putting words in your mouth. I think he's asking you a question.

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Proceed, counselor.

Q Do you remember whether you checked the windows in the bedroom or not?
A Not specifically. That's the only one I would be worried about, because she kicked off her covers --
Q And you might have checked that? I'm sorry; I didn't mean to interrupt you.
A No, I probably checked hers.
Q And you don't remember noting that Kris was not in her bed?
A No. When I brought her the bottle, when she awakened and I brought her the bottle that would have been my last real check.
Q What lights were on as you were closing up the house?
A A light in the kitchen and a light in the bathroom in the hall.
Q What was the last thing you did before you went to the bedroom to get in bed?
A Probably went to the bathroom.
Q And this would have been the bathroom off the utility room?
A I would think so. I usually -- I usually had my toothbrush in there. Sometimes the kids put it in the other one, and then I went in and brushed my teeth in the other one, but I think it would have been in the bathroom off the utility room.
Q Now when you went to go to bed, what did you find?
A Kristy was on my side of the bed.
Q And your side of the bed, is which side?
A The right.
Q Was your wife in bed?
A Yes.
Q Was Kristy close to your wife or on the other side of the bed or where?
A She was close to my wife.
Q Was she asleep?
A Yes.
Q Did she have anything with her?
A I assume she had hr bottle with her because, well, when she played around at night she usually carried her bottle with her.
Q Well, where was the bottle? Do you remember?
A I don't remember.
Q What did you do as the result of Kris being in your bed?
A I picked Kristy up and brought her back in her own bed.
Q And what about the bottle?
A Well, assuming she had it with her, I would bring it with her. In either case, when I left her in her bed she had her bottle. Whether I picked it up in the master bedroom or whether it was still in her bed, and I brought her back to her own bed.
Q Where was the bottle when you had her in her own bed, where was the bottle?
A I gave it to her.
Q Did she awake when you moved her?
A No, she just -- well, not really awakened. She kind of groped around and you give her the bottle, and then she just holds the bottle.
Q I see. Now as I understand it you had been having the experience of Kris getting in bed with you for a month or so prior to this. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q And how often was that?
A Several times a week.
Q And you say there was some difference of opinion between you and your wife as to precisely how to treat this. Would you tell us about that?
A Sure. My wife was willing to get up at night and make and give her the extra bottle, or -- not the same thing happened every night. Kristy would awaken every night, and she would either go to Kimmie and climb in with Kimmie, or she would just want a bottle, or she would come in with us, and I felt that we should do with her what we had done with Kimmie, and that is keep putting her back in her own bed, even if she started crying, and Colette felt that it was no big deal and she didn't mind getting up to get the bottle or whatever it was.
Q Now when Kristy got in bed with you, why did this cause the musical bed arrangement that you mentioned on direct examination?
A Well, sometime I wouldn't even know Kristy had gotten in bed, but she'd be pushing Colette or something, or kicking Colette and Colette would wake up easier as Kristy got into bed, and so Colette would get up and either go to Kristy's bed or go to the couch, and sometimes Kristy would get up again and leave us and go to Kim, and she wake Kimmie up and Kimmie would end up going to Kristy's bed.
Q Now this period prior to the night of the 16th, did you ever get up and go to the couch as the result of Kristy being in bed with you?
A Sure.
Q And on this evening you say Kris had wet the bed?
A Right.
Q How much of the bed was wet?
A Oh, a circle on my side of the bed. I don't know, I would say a foot and a half to two feet across.
Q And you took Kris back to her own bed first before you did anything else?
A Correct.
Q And you took the bottle, if it was in your bed, but at any rate you gave her the bottle when you put her in her bed?
A Right. Kristy ended up with the bottle in her own bed.
Q Did you change Kristy?
A No.
Q Why?
A Because she was sleeping. I didn't feel like waking her.
Q What happens to someone who stays wet with urine through the night?
A Most of the time, nothing.
Q It has no bad effects?
A It can have some bad effects. She can get a diaper rash.
Q But you didn't feel that it was necessary to change her in this case?
A No, because Kristy would usually wet herself once during the night if she had several bottles. Children that get diaper rash are kids who usually -- it is from feces, from bowel movement, or from repeated passage of urine so that they stay soaked all night, but this was not the case.
Q Why did you decide to go to the couch?
A Because my half of the bed was wet.
Q Did it occur to you to have the bed changed?
A No, absolutely not.
Q And so you went to the couch?
A Right.
Q And you took a blanket with. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Can you describe that blanket?
A I believe it was wide-weave afghan type of blanket. In other words, it's a kind of very rough weave with holes in the blanket as part of the weaving pattern.
Q And you went to bed on the couch in what position?
A With my head towards the front or south part of the house and my feet towards the hallway.
Q And you were covered by the afghan?
A Correct.
Q Were you wearing your glasses that evening?
A Was I wearing them that evening?
Q Yes.
A Surely.
Q Do you normally wear your glasses?
A Well, I was in the midst of switching from glasses to contacts but I was still wearing my glasses, because the contacts I had at the time didn't fit me right.
Q Are you wearing contacts right now?
A Yes.
Q Where were your glasses when you went to bed?
A I don't specifically remember. They were probably on the coffee table.
Q And where was the coffee table?
A Next to the couch.
Q How far away from the couch?
A Oh, a foot and a half.
Q Did you have some slippers?
A Yes.
Q Had you been wearing them?
A Well, I usually put them on when I came out of the shower and I took them off and, you know, walked around barefooted for the rest of the night.
Q What time was it that you went to bed?
A Approximately 2 a.m.
Q And what were the lighting conditions out there in the living room at that time?
A There was a light in the kitchen and there was a light in the bathroom in the hallway. There wasn't any light on in the living room.
Q Would you describe the lighting conditions in the living room as poor there?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any difficulty going to sleep?
A No.
Q Do you -- would you describe yourself as a heavy sleeper?
A At home, yes. Just -- you know, since I've been an intern. I never used to be a heavy sleeper.
Q And do you ever -- have you ever had occasion to awaken during the night with one of the children crying and tend to it?
A Yes.
Q Did you share these duties with your wife?
A Well, it was very uneven sharing. I probably had four or five percent of the duty of getting up at night.
Q Now, what specifically awakened you?
A A scream.
Q Whose?
A Colette.
Q This was a wordless scream to the best of your memory?
A Yes.
Q And it was followed by some words. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And those words were?
A "Help me, Jeff. Help, help. Why are they doing this to me?"
Q Did you hear something else?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what was that?
A I heard Kimberly.
Q And what was Kimberly saying?
A "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy."
Q Did you hear any other noises?
A As I awakened?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q And your reaction when you heard these noises was what? What did you do?
A Well, I went to sit up, pushed the blanket so I could sit up, to go find out what was happening.
Q And how far did you get sat up? Did you get all the way upright?
A No.
Q What did you first see?
A I just -- what appeared to me just to be a group of people.
Q How many?
A My first impression was three.
Q Where?
A At the foot of the couch.
Q Describe these people as best you can.
A To the left, either at the end of the coffee table, or in the alley between the coffee table and the foot of the couch, was a Negro male, hair short to moderate, nothing distinguishing with an Army field jacket on.
Q Any idea as to his height?
A Well, not really, because I never was standing, and if, you know, it is really difficult to estimate height lying down looking up at someone. I just -- the only way that I had of estimating height was an average type thing, and more importantly to me was the difference in the height in the people. It wasn't a matter of, you know, whether they were 5-8 to 5-10, but they looked normal, and the white male in the middle was the shorter of the three.
Q Now you have described the Negro. Go on and describe the other two.
A The middle male was the shorter of the three; I would say an inch or two. Well, I will say at least two inches but -- because you could see that he was shorter. He had moderately short hair, again, and what I thought was a thin mustache, and he had a thin kind of narrow face.
Q And the other individual?
A He -- the third Caucasian male, he was the one to my right at the foot of the couch, and was just about as tall as the Negro, and again, it is difficult to describe. I wasn't -- there was nothing outstanding, no beard or glasses or anything like that, no extremely long hair. It was moderately long hair, and really I would have to put it together piece by piece, the way I did it with the artist to give you a better description. You know, he didn't have fat lips or bushy eyebrows. He was just a person.
Q And these people were already in the living room at the time you awoke?
A That's correct.
Q Do you have any idea, by the way, whether any of your doors were locked?
A Well, when Colette came in I think she locked the front door, and that's the only one I know for sure.
Q You don't know anything about the kitchen door?
A No, sometimes I went in to get a bottle and I would check it, but I don't specifically remember doing it that night.
Q What was these two white men doing when you first saw them?
A Just standing there.
Q Could you see their hands?
A I didn't even notice.
Q Then you didn't notice anything unusual or peculiar about their hands, or anything they might have been carrying?
A Correct.
Q Now what was the first action that took place?
A The Negro male moved towards me.
Q And how was he doing this? What path?
A It's only a matter of a step. Isn't a path.
Q All right, how was the step taken?
A Well, he just sort of -- it appeared to me he took a step down towards me, between the coffee table and the couch.
Q How much room did he have in that area?
A Oh, a foot and a half, a foot, maybe.
Q And was he holding something?
A Yes.
Q And what was it?
A It appeared to be a club.
Q Where was this club when you first saw it?
A It was just -- I didn't -- don't remember when I first saw it. I saw it as he was raising it.
Q From what position was he raising it?
A He was raising it over his right shoulder.
Q Was he using one or two hands?
A Two hands.
Q What did you do as the result of this?
A Well, as he started swinging at me I fell backwards and put my arm up.
Q How did you accomplish this move back?
A I leaned backwards. I was half way coming up. I was at maybe a 45 degree -- it only happened, you know, two or three seconds.
Q I understand that. I simply want the best description.
A As I was pushing up off the couch, I was hearing this and seeing this and he started -- he took a step towards me -- and raised the club, and I just moved back, you know, started leaning back down and I put my arm up.
Q Which arm?
A Left arm.
Q What happened?
A Well, he swung at me and he hit me.
Q Swung with both hands?
A I -- I can't answer that. It appeared to be, yes.
Q Was he swinging over his head or by his shoulder or do you have any idea?
A No.
Q How high is your ceiling?
A I don't know. It's the -- I believe it is the highest one because I don't think the ceiling comes down when the floor comes down two steps, but it might. Probably eight feet, nine feet.
Q What happened when he swung this club?
A He hit me with it.
Q Where?
A On the combination of my left arm and my left forehead.
Q And you fell back as the result of this. Is this right?
A Yes.
Q Did you fall completely in a prone position?
A Yes.
Q What did the Negro do?
A I don't know. I was stunned.
Q When you first were capable then of observing again, what did he do?
A He was raising the club again.
Q And you did what?
A I put my arm up again.
Q Did he swing the club?
A Yes, he did.
Q And what was the result that time?
A Somehow I was holding his arm.
Q Which arm?
A I don't know. I think it was his right arm.
Q Were you holding it with one hand or two?
A I ended up with two. I just sort of blocked it and my hand was right next to his. I just sort of pushed my arm this way and my hand was then on his sleeve, and then I grabbed him with both arms, with both hands.
Q What kind of sleeve was this?
A Well, my impression again was that it was an Army field jacket, but this isn't because I sat up and said he's got a field jacket on. This is a -- just a really brief impression, and then I later saw stripes.
Q And you had hold of his sleeve?
A Yes.
Q Did that stop the blow?
A Well, the blow had already been stopped.
Q By your having grabbed his arm?
A Well, the combination of that or, you know, it glanced off my shoulder or something, but I was holding onto his arm.
Q Where was the club then? Down or up, when you finally got it stopped?
A I don't know. I assumed it was pointed down because I had his arm.
Q And what did you do?
A I held on to his arm.
Q Did he swing the club again?
A Not at that time.
Q What did he do?
A He was just struggling, trying to pull his arm away and I was pulling myself up to a sitting position by pulling on his arm.
Q During this period did you get a look at this club?
A Not a look at it, no, I just -- as he was pulling away, I was sliding down on his arm and I ended holding onto the club.
Q What did the club feel like?
A I -- I don't distinctly remember.
Q Was it round or square? Do you know that?
A I don't remember.
Q Was it difficult to hold on to?
A When he was jerking it out of my hand, yes, it was.
Q What were the other two males doing at this time? Do you know?
A They were punching me in the chest.
Q When did they first start punching you in the chest?
A As I was pushing back up after being hit in the head the first time.
Q Were they both punching you?
A I honestly can't answer that. I know I just felt blows as I was being punched in the shoulder and head area and chest.
Q Where were these two men standing as this was going on?
A At the foot of the couch. Perhaps they were kneeling on the end of the couch, but they were still in front of me and I was still on the couch.
Q Were they still side by side?
A Yes, I think they would have had to be.
Q And they were reaching, I gather, quite a ways to strike you, were they not?
A Well, I really don't know. You know, I was pulling myself up, first on the man's arm and then on his club, so I was moving towards the end of the couch.
Q Were you in an upright position when you were first struck by these blows?
A When they first punched me?
Q Yes.
A I was getting into an upright position, right. I probably -- already had my left foot -- was off the couch on the floor and I was trying to push up forwards still holding on to the club -- so I was leaning forward and pushing up with my left foot.
Q And you were not wearing your glasses at this time, were you?
A No.
Q When was it that you first felt this blow to your chest that impressed you so much?
A Immediately in that -- within the next few seconds.
Q Was this during the time that you were struggling with the Negro and the club?
A Oh, yes, I -- I think it was.
Q And when you felt this impressive blow, you let go of the club?
A Yes.
Q And you did what?
A I sort of was pushing and shoving and trying to punch the people in front of me.
Q Where was your pajama top at that time?
A It was approximately at this time that it was around my -- my arms but I -- I don't know how it got there.
Q You don't remember it coming over your head?
A No.
Q Was it around both your arms?
A Yes, it was.
Q Where?
A Well, it was across my forearms initially and then it was just around my wrist and hands.
Q Was this the time then that you got hold of a hand?
A Yes.
Q What was in that hand?
A I just noticed a -- sort of a blade of some type. I didn't -- I can't make any statement other than that. I just noticed something in his hand and I thought to myself that it was a blade.
Q Did you have the hand, the wrist, or what part of the anatomy were you hanging onto?
A I had his hand at one time and my hand was around his hand.
Q And --
A This happened more than once, by the way, you know. I was holding a hand more than once.
Q And in each case did the hand have a knife in it?
A I'm not sure. I -- I remember seeing a blade twice, and I know I was holding a hand at least twice, but I'm not sure that they are always connected.
Q Anything peculiar about this hand? Was it particularly strong or was it -- it was a white hand, I gather?
A Well, my impression, as I told the investigators, was that the hand had a -- heavy rubber glove, but when you write this down in black and white it sounds so definite. This is an instantaneous impression. I -- I described it as --

COL ROCK: Excuse me. Could you describe it as you remember it now? Would that be feasible?

WITNESS: Yes, sir. It appeared to me to be a rough-grained rubber glove of the type used in a kitchen.

Q What color was it, do you remember?
A No. It appeared light.
Q Was it -- do you think the rubber glove was from your kitchen?
A I have no way of knowing that. It could have been.
Q And when you wound up with the pajama top around your arms, what were you trying to do?
A Well, I was trying to hit these people, but I couldn't move one arm at a time.
Q What was this Negro man doing during the time that you were struggling with the two white males?
A Well, I felt one distinct blow on my left shoulder, but that's the only thing I really remember.
Q What stopped that blow?
A I don't know. I just -- I know I was hit fairly hard on the left shoulder that one time. This is as I was starting to -- right at the end of the couch as I was getting up and pushing into these people.
Q At what point did you first notice this female?
A This was way back as the Negro was just sort of moving towards me. This is really a fleeting glance, nothing more than that.
Q Well, where was she standing? Would it have been behind the three that you first saw?
A Well, the three was sort of in a line facing me, and yes, she was behind them.
Q And you saw what, now, when you looked at her?
A I really only saw a hat and hair and a brief outline of her face and it appeared as though it was lit from beneath.
Q Describe the hat, please?
A Well, it appeared to be a wide-brim, floppy, light-colored hat.
Q Light?
A Light-colored.
Q Do you know specifically what color?
A No.
Q Now while you were struggling with these people and getting in an upright position, did you finally get on your feet?
A Not fully. I had my left foot on the floor at one time, and I was pushing off it, but that's all I really remember.
Q Did you at any time get in any kind of a standing position?
A No, not fully, no.
Q How close to a standing position can you remember getting?
A Well, I'd say my left leg was almost straightened out and I was off the couch, probably on my knee, my right knee, with my left foot, and my right knee still on the couch, at one time.
Q Up in a more or less standing position except that your knee was on the couch?
A Right. This was when I felt the -- a blow on my left shoulder.
Q While you were struggling then in this upright position, where were the two white men?
A Right in front of me.
Q Still right in the same position?
A Right there.
Q And what were they doing?
A They appeared to be punching me.
Q How many of these punches, all total, did you sustain?
A I have no idea.
Q Was it many?
A Yes.
Q And were they hard blows?
A A lot of them didn't appear that effective to me. I was -- you know -- I was, you have to realize I was really dizzy and my -- when I say I literally saw stars, I mean it. You know, you have this white light pounding in your head, and you can't clear your head, and I just -- some of the blows -- a lot of the blows seemed light to me, and that's why the other one seemed so remarkably different and I remember, to myself, that gee, he just hit me.
Q Do you remember being struck by fists specifically?
A I thought so, yes. I think so now, yes.
Q And you describe this as a rain of blows. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now you say that you began to fall forward. Is that correct?
A I was pushing forward.
Q And did you at some point begin to fall forward?
A Yes.
Q Where were the white men as this happened?
A I don't know. I mean I assume that they just stepped sideways or backed up into the hall or something. I don't know. I know I was still in contact with people.

COL ROCK: Excuse me, counselor. In order to shorten my cross-examination later on, when you say you fell forward, do you mean forward toward the end of the couch, or off to the left of couch, or to which way?

WITNESS: No, sir, at this time I was already -- if I could just show you for a second it would be much easier.

COL ROCK: Is this okay, counselor?

CPT SOMERS: I have no objection. I think it would help considerably.

CPT MacDONALD: For instance, if this speaker were the end of the couch, sometime I was -- I was like this, and I was towards the end of the couch.

CPT SOMERS: Now, at this time let me describe this for the record. You are facing the speaker you described as the end of the couch. You have your right knee up on the platform. You have your left foot down on the floor and you are in an upright position.

CPT MacDONALD: Yes.

COL ROCK: Then your knee is approximately eighteen inches from the end of the couch. Is this correct?

CPT MacDONALD: Well, sir, I wouldn't say it was this distance.

COL ROCK: I mean in your demonstration here?

CPT MacDONALD: Right, correct. This is where I would guess from my recollection of the struggle.

COL ROCK: Thank you; proceed, counselor.

Q I'm still not clear, however, Captain MacDonald, in what direction you fell.
A Towards the end of the couch. Actually it appeared I was going off the couch, so during the struggle I must have been inching down the couch, because I was going off the end of the couch.
Q Was there anything that broke your fall or that you struck as you were falling?
A I don't remember.
Q Do you remember landing?
A No.
Q At what point did you lose consciousness?
A Well, this is the last thing I remember.
Q Falling forward is the last thing you remember?
A Right, correct.
Q And where was the girl at that time? Do you know?
A I don't know.
Q But you remember seeing a knee?
A Yes.
Q And where was that knee?
A It appeared to be in front of me.
Q Would that put it in the dining room?
A Well, it could have been, but more likely it was on the stairs, or back into the hallway.
Q Well, if it were on the stairs, would it not be to the right of you?
A No, because as I was -- from the end of the couch, to fall off the end of the couch, the stairs are right here -- well, yes edging towards the right, yes.
Q Now that couch is right up against the east wall, is it not?
A Correct.
Q Very close to it?
A Correct.
Q And it's what -- or would have been then -- about two or three feet from the stairs in the hall?
A It might have been, but I thought it was closer. I thought it was within a foot or eighteen inches. It might be two feet.
Q Okay, a space of two feet?
A Right.
Q And the knee you saw was in front and maybe to your right?
A Correct.
Q Now describe for us, please, what you saw -- what you recall specifically or the characteristics of what you saw?
A I just saw a very brief glimpse of what appeared to be a knee on top of a boot. In other words, at no time did I see a person and look all way down and see bare knees. This is totally separated from my other observations. I have a recollection of a knee on top of a boot as I was seemingly falling forward.
Q And apparently that leg was not wearing pants?
A Correct.
Q And you presumed that this leg belonged to the female?
A Yeah, yes.
Q How were the two white males clothed, by the way?
A The only thing I remember was appeared to be light-colored jackets, but that's even more specific than I remember it. They just appeared to be -- for instance, they were not in Army uniforms, and they didn't have anything that -- the middle man, the man with the mustache had something behind him. It was either a collar that was standing up, or was like a hooded sweat shirt, sweat shirt type thing where the hood is bunched, but that's the best of my recollection.
Q And you lost consciousness as you were falling?
A Well, I assume so only because it's the last thing that I remember.
Q Okay, when you regained consciousness, where were you?
A I was in the end of the hallway.
Q Now, precisely where with respect to the stairs?
A Well, I'm not being facetious -- I really can't -- I can't precisely. I would say my knees were probably over the stairs with my head down the hallway towards the master bedroom, so I would have been two or three feet down the hallway, with my knees still over the hallway and my legs in the living room.
Q But this is not the position that you would have fallen into as you were falling, is it? Could you have, in your opinion?
A With a little shove or during the struggle, it's possible. I might have moved a little bit forward after I hit the floor or something, but -- yes, it is in -- within a foot or two of where I would have fallen if I was falling off the end of the couch.
Q But you would have had to have some impetus to push you to the right into the hallway, wouldn't you?
A Yes.
Q What body position were you in when you awoke?
A Well, I basically was face down, but I was kind of laying on my right arm with my arms across my abdomen because they were still bound up in my pajama top.
Q Were you lying on your hands?
A Lying on my hands?
Q Yes.
A It was a combination of my right arm and my hands, yes, because I was a little bit on my side.
Q Now during the period before you lost consciousness, and after you heard the first things from your wife and from Kimberly, did you hear any other noises from the other end of the house?
A No, after -- during the struggle, I don't remember hearing anything from then on, but I was involved in the struggle and I don't know if people was still screaming or anything. I heard the girl during this time, but that's not what you asked me.
Q That's correct. Now this girl, since we've brought that up, was saying, "Acid is groovy," and "Kill the pigs"?
A Yes.
Q And you also remember her saying something about acid and rain?
A Right. That's not a direct quote. "Kill the pigs" and "Acid is groovy" is. I think it was something like acid and rain.
Q What was the first thing that you were aware of as you awoke?
A My teeth were chattering. They were knocking together so you could hear it.
Q Was it cold in the hall?
A I didn't know. I don't -- it shouldn't have been. I felt cold.
Q What sort of heating system did you have in the house?
A Radiators. I think they were hot water.
Q Were they easy to regulate or difficult?
A Difficult.
Q And was the temperature in the house usually hot or cold when they were running?
A It was usually hot. We had to shut most of them off and the house was still warm.
Q Now you come to and your teeth were chattering and you remember thinking something about shock. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q What did you do first?
A I got up and moved towards the master bedroom.
Q And as you got up did you have to climb up the stairs or do you remember anything of that?
A I don't remember.
Q When you woke up and got up, were your arms -- how did your arms feel?
A I don't -- I don't have any recollection. All I remember they were bound up in the pajama top. I had -- well, I had --
Q Then as I understand it, you went to the master bedroom. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q Now, are you fairly clear about where you went first?
A First?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q What did you do as you got to the master bedroom?
A Well, it was a combination of things. I was trying to get my hands out of this cloth, and I looked at my wife.
Q Did you turn the light on?
A I don't specifically remember it. I think I did because I could see her extremely well.
Q But you don't remember?
A No.
Q What did you do with the pajama top?
A I dropped it.
Q Where?
A I don't remember.
Q What did you do once you dropped that pajama top?
A Pulled the knife out of my wife's chest.
Q How did you do that? Did you crouch or kneel?
A I don't remember. I probably kneeled down next to her.
Q Which hand did you pull it out with?
A I don't remember. Logically it would be with the left.
Q Why logically the left?
A Well, I was on her left side and right hand would have been at her head and my left hand would have been by her chest, but I don't remember that. I can't say that I did that.
Q And what did you do with the knife?
A I threw it away.
Q Why did you pull the knife out?
A Well, I was going to give her artificial respiration.
Q What's the medical effect of removing a knife when it was stuck in her chest?
A Well, if it's -- you have to compress the chest to give artificial respiration and the knife was in the way.
Q But what happens if you pull a knife out of the chest? Is that the normal procedure?
A It is not recommended or dis-recommended, if there is such a word. It has no effect that I know of. I would normally take a knife out of a wounded person.
Q And then you gave your wife mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A Correct.
Q How long did you do that?
A It must have been only a few seconds, because the air was immediately bubbling out of her chest.
Q Could you see her chest?
A Yes.
Q What was the condition of her chest?
A Very bloody.
Q Could you see any wounds in her chest?
A Multiple wounds.
Q Did it seem reasonable to expect that you were going to get bubbles from the chest when you applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A Nothing seemed reasonable.
Q Why not?
A I thought it was rather unusual circumstances.
Q Did you do anything else with respect to your wife at that time?
A I probably straightened her out a little bit. She was leaning against the green chair. In other words, before I would have attempted resuscitation, I probably shifted her a little and then leaning forward and was breathing into her mouth. Her right shoulder would have been against the green chair.
Q Did you take any other medical procedures?
A I don't remember. I don't think so. I could have checked her pulses.
Q Once you determined that you were not being successful with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, that you should stop, what did you do?
A I believe at this time that I covered her with my -- her chest -- with my pajama top.
Q And where was your pajama top?
A I don't know. I just looked around and picked it up and put it on her chest.
Q Did you have to walk around or get out of your position to pick it up?
A I don't think I really had to walk around. I think I only remember looking around for something to cover her, and do what I could as far as first aid measures for shock.
Q Did you cover her with anything else besides your pajama top?
A I remember trying to cover her and I don't specifically remember what I covered her with. I remember the pajama top, and I remember I was thinking, gee, I gotta get a blanket; I gotta cover her, elevate her legs and start an IV. But I don't have a real recollection of picking up anything else and putting it on her.
Q Now I am going to show you Government Exhibit G-76, page 3, last paragraph. This is one of the interviews with Mr. Caverly. Notice the last sentence on this page. Would you read it, please?

MR. SEGAL: No, no, I object to that, sir.

CPT SOMERS: I'm not asking him to read it aloud. I want him to read it to himself.

A Yes, I've read it.
Q Does that refresh your memory as to what you covered your wife with?
A No, sir.
Q It says in this statement, does it not, that you covered your wife with a towel?
A Yes, it does.
Q But you remember now that you did not cover her with a towel, do you?
A Well, if I may explain to the investigating officer to clarify that.
Q I'd like you to answer the question. Do you remember now that you did not cover her with a towel?
A I never remembered covering her with a towel.
Q In other words, that's a misrepresentation?

MR. SEGAL: That's objected to.

CPT BEALE: Just a second, Mr. Segal. The witness is entitled to explain his answer, Captain Somers, and he's indicated that he'd like to explain it, so therefore, you've asked the question and he's given you the answer. Now he is entitled to explain it.

CPT SOMERS: Well, I think I am entitled to lead him in getting answers that are relevant. If he wishes now to answer and explain, I think the redirect would be the proper time for that.

COL ROCK: In the -- we're hoping to try to expedite this. I think we would like to have the explanation from the witness. He is best qualified to explain it. Proceed.

WITNESS: Sir, when I was being questioned on this matter, which was -- and I really mean this -- it was very cursory, as I remember it in the hospital. I never said that. What happened was he said did you cover your wife with anything, and I said yes, I did, and he said, what, and I said I was looking for things, and at least my pajama top; and he said, could you have covered her with a towel, or words -- that is not a direct quote -- but this is the type of questioning -- and I said I don't know, and he said, well could you have, and I said sure, it's possible. And I never said to any person, to the best of my knowledge, that I covered my wife with a towel. I could have and I still maintain I could have.

COL ROCK: Proceed, counselor.

Q Do you remember doing anything else to cover your wife?
A Other than looking for something and covering her?
Q Other than the pajama top and towel we've discussed that you may have used?
A No.
Q Did you -- now, Captain MacDonald, I am going to show you Government Exhibit 101, which is one of the two statements taken on April 6th. I want you to look at the answer you gave to the 4th question on the page and read it to yourself.

COL ROCK: Which page is that, counselor?

CPT SOMERS: That's page 7.

Q Does that refresh your memory as to anything you did with respect to covering your wife?
A Not any further than I have just stated.
Q You say in this statement, do you not, that you remember covering her up with things?
A Yes, that's just what I've said here.
Q And you still remember more than one thing?
A I specifically remember picking up my pajama top, shaking it, you know sort of opening it so it was like a towel, and laying it on her. I remember I was looking for something and I was pulling at the clothes that was piled in the chair across Colette, but I don't remember specifically picking up something and laying it across her. I know I was looking for something -- I was trying to cover her -- it is perfectly conceivable, that I did cover her with that towel or with something else, but I don't remember it.
Q What did you do, once you had covered your wife?
A I went to the -- Kimberly's bedroom.
Q And where did you go in Kimberly's bedroom?
A I went up next to her bed on the left side of her bed, facing the bed from the foot, the left side.
Q Did you do anything medically while you were there?
A I'm not sure at that time. I must have done something. Now I don't know if I just took a pulse or tried mouth-to-mouth the first time with Kimberly.
Q Did you form any conclusions while you were in that bedroom then?
A Yes.
Q And what were those conclusions?
A That she was very bloody.
Q Any other conclusions?
A Well, not that I admitted to myself. I mean it was obvious, but I didn't say to myself, well, I guess Kimberly's dead.
Q But that was obvious?
A It was a distinct possibility, yes.
Q Did you go any closer than the foot of the bed?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A On the left side of the bed. Facing the foot of the bed it would be the left side, between the bed and the front window of the house.
Q But you don't specifically remember doing anything?
A No. I was in there at least twice during the next several minutes, and on one or two of these visits I did things, and I don't know if it was the first trip or not.
Q On one of those visits you did give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A Yes.
Q Did you do anything else in that bedroom?
A Checked the pulses.
Q Was this again -- you don't remember which time?
A No, I do not.
Q Once you had finished that time in that bedroom, what did you do?
A I went to Kristy's bedroom.
Q And what did you do there? Well, first of all -- let me withdraw that -- where in the bedroom did you go?
A Up next to the bed.
Q And how close to the bed?
A Close, right to the bed. I might have been touching the bed.
Q And what did you do?
A I gave her; I think, on the first trip to Kristy's room, mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, it would be appropriate for the government at this time to recess for perhaps ten minutes, if that's acceptable to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK: We will recess for the normal lunch break.

(The hearing recessed at 1135 hours, 16 August 1970

(The hearing reopened at 1302 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that all parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room. Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Captain MacDonald, when we left off this morning we were talking about your being in Kristy's room, and my next question, then, is what medical steps did you take in Kris's room?
A The first time?
Q The first time.
A I believe mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
Q Would you describe how did you did that, please?
A I don't distinctly remember. I think that I put my hand under the back -- back of her head and her neck, and probably would have breathed into her mouth and nose which is the technique with children.
Q In what position was she lying when you first approached her?
A You mean on her back or her front?
Q That's correct.
A She was lying on her back.
Q In what -- how was she facing?
A I -- I think she was just sort of facing up, towards the ceiling.
Q In other words flat on her back?
A Right.
Q And when you had finished giving her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, what did you do then?
A I left the bedroom.
Q And did you take any pulses while you were in there?
A I don't really know. I think so.
Q Would that have been before or after you gave her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A Probably before.
Q And then you left Kris's room?
A Correct.
Q Where did you go when you left Kris's room?
A I stool in the hallway for a minute.
Q You stood in the hallway? What were you doing in the hallway?
A Trying to figure out what had happened.
Q Where in the hallway were you standing?
A I think right outside of Kristy's room, between the two bedrooms.
Q What did you decide you would do then?
A Well, there's some confusion here. I don't know if I decided to look in the bathroom at this time, but I think this was when I felt my head.
Q And you think this was when you went to the bathroom then?
A Yes.
Q Anything unusual about the bathroom?
A Did I notice anything unusual?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Now the light in the bathroom was on. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What did you do first when you got in the bathroom?
A I looked in the mirror.
Q What were you looking for?
A To see what my head wounds looked like.
Q What did they look like?
A I saw some blood was smeared on my forehead, and the only thing I noticed initially was a large -- oh, it's not large, but it was a lump and a contusion on my left forehead.
Q Is this the point at which you assessed your own condition?
A Partially.
Q What was the assessment?
A Well, the reason I was looking at my head was to see if I had a, you know, a gaping scalp wound or a depressed skull fracture, obvious depression or something, and I didn't see anything. I was -- just noted it.
Q What else did you note at that time?
A Nothing specific.
Q Did you check any other injuries?
A Yes, but I don't know if it was standing in the bathroom.
Q If it wasn't standing in the bathroom, where were you when you did that?
A Either in the hallway before I went into the bathroom, in the bathroom or as I was coming out of the bathroom.
Q Well, you don't remember which or where?
A I think I looked down at my chest as I was standing outside of Kris's room, at one point, but --
Q How was the light there in the hall?
A Well, right there it would be fairly good.
Q What were you wearing at that point?
A My pajama bottoms.
Q Anything else?
A No.
Q Did you do anything else in the bathroom?
A Washed my hands.
Q Did you use soap?
A I don't remember.
Q Did you dry them?
A I believe I dried them with something, tissue or a towel or something, but I -- I remember reaching for something -- patting my hands.
Q You don't remember what it was you reached for?
A I believe it was tissues, but I cannot say with 100% certainty.
Q Now since you didn't notice anything unusual about the bathroom when you first went in it, I guess you did not notice that there was any blood or any other debris in the bathroom when you went in there?
A I was not aware of any.
Q Where did you go from the bathroom?
A I believe back to the master bedroom.
Q What did you do in the master bedroom when you went in there?
A I at least looked at Colette.
Q Now precisely what do you mean by you looked at Colette? Did you do something medically, for instance?
A I don't think so. I'm not sure, but I think I went directly to the phone.
Q Had you at that point decided to make a phone call?
A Yes.
Q What did you do when you went to the phone?
A I picked up the phone and dialed O.
Q And did you get an operator?
A Yes.
Q What did you tell the operator?
A I don't know the exact words. I gave her my name and I told her we needed police and ambulances and medics and doctors and MP's.
Q Did you tell her why?
A I told her that people were dying.
Q What was her response?
A She asked me my address.
Q Yes, and once you'd given that -- did you give that?
A Yes.
Q Once you had given it, what did you do?
A She said, "Is it on post or off post?"
Q And what did you do then?
A Well, I remember that I thought I was swearing at her, or yelling at her or something.
Q Did you tell her whether it was on post or off post?
A Yes, she repeated it, and I told her it was on post.
Q What was her response?
A She said, "Well, then it's an MP matter."
Q And what did you do?
A I dropped the phone.
Q Why did you drop the phone?
A I don't know. I was confused and I didn't see why she was being so difficult, and it was very obvious to me that I needed help.
Q Well, if it was so obvious that you needed help, why did you discard the first communication you had with someone about help?
A Well, I had transmitted the need for help to her, and she was rejecting it, and I was confused.
Q Did she refuse to help you?

MR. SEGAL: I think the witness has not completed his answer.

A And when she said this, I -- throughout this time, of course, I was very confused and I also had a lot of pain, and thought that I was injured and nothing was making any sense, and when she said it's an MP matter, I couldn't figure out what to do.
Q Did you feel any sense of urgency about it?
A Certainly.
Q Well, what did you do after you discarded the phone?
A I checked Colette again, I think.
Q And what do you mean by you checked her?
A I went back to her at sometime during these proceedings and I think it was now. If I had to be pinned down, I would say it was after making the first phone call, and I looked at her and I checked for pulses and I pulled the pajama top down, because I didn't believe what I had seen.
Q Were there any pulses?
A No.
Q Do -- did you do anything medically about that?
A No.
Q Once you had ascertained the extent of the injury and the fact that there were no pulses, what else did you do?
A I went to see Kimmie again.
Q You did nothing else in the master bedroom at that time?
A Perhaps I breathed in her mouth once or something, but I don't think so, no. I think I just left.
Q What about the back door? What was its position?
A Well, it was either -- what was its position?
Q Yes. Open or closed?
A Well, I noticed it was open.
Q Did you do anything about that?
A I just walked up to it.
Q When did you do that?
A I don't specially remember.
Q When do you think this was?
A Either just before or just after the phone call.
Q What did you do when you went to the door?
A I just looked.
Q But you didn't cry out for help?
A No.
Q Did it occur to you to cry out for help?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Well, it was very quiet. It was in the middle of the night and I didn't hear or see anything, and I didn't think of yelling out. I didn't see much it would do.
Q So then you went to Kimmie's room again?
A Yes.
Q Now what did you do in Kimmie's room this time?
A Checked her pulses.
Q Which ones?
A Well, I am not a hundred percent sure, but I think the femoral pulse and the -- probably the carotid and the wrist.
Q Did you do anything medically besides that?
A Yes, I think at this time I tried to give mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q How successful was that?
A Imminently unsuccessful.
Q And why?
A Because the air was coming out her chest.
Q Now Captain MacDonald, you've heard the description of Kimmie's injuries. She didn't have any chest injuries. How come the air was coming out of her chest?
A Well, the upper chest area, what appeared to be the junction of her neck and chest.
Q Did you give her mouth-to-mouth respiration before or after you checked her pulses?
A I don't remember.
Q What position was she in when you left her?
A I don't remember specifically.
Q How about the bed clothes? Did you have to move them?
A Well, do you want a hundred percent recollection?
Q I want the best you can do.
A Well, I probably did have to move them to feel the femoral pulse.
Q And how did you leave them? Do you remember?
A No, I probably just -- probably -- this is -- it's really a guess. I probably just pulled them down, felt the femoral pulse, pulled them back up and gave her mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q Did you move her head?
A Probably a small bit to give her mouth-to-mouth.
Q In which way was she facing when you left?
A I don't remember. I think -- I just -- my impression would be that she was just lying in bed sort of face up.
Q Face up?
A Well, that's a recollection.
Q And, now as I recall, she was lying on her side when she was found. Did you put her on her side?
A No, sir.
Q That's not the position you left her in?
A I don't remember her being on her side, no.
Q Could she have been?
A If you mean was she tilted slightly one way, that perfectly possible, yes. If she was completely on one side, no.
Q What did you do when you left Kimmie's room?
A I went to Kristy's room.
Q And what did you do there?
A I think I just felt for her pulses. I don't think I gave her mouth-to-mouth respiration the second time.
Q Did you find any pulse?
A No.
Q Did you find any pulse on any of the girls, your wife or the girls?
A No.
Q Did you do anything medically about that?
A No.
Q You didn't try closed heart -- closed heart massage or anything of that nature?
A A person has to be able to expand the lungs for that to work.
Q So you didn't do it?
A Right.
Q What position was Kristy in when you left her?
A I think also she was laying on her back.
Q And you know that she was not found on her back?
A Well, no, I don't know that.
Q Well, have you seen the pictures in this case?
A No, sir.
Q They show her not on her back. I don't particularly want to show them to you, unless you prefer it, but they show her not on her back. But you feel sure that you left her that way?
A Well, I didn't -- I didn't mean flat on her back. I just -- I have the impression that as I left her, she was more facing up than she was rolled over on her stomach, yes. In other words, her back was not up.
Q Did you, at any time, roll her over to assess the extent of her injuries or --
A No, I just picked up her neck and head to breathe into her mouth.
Q And you have no idea why the girls were found in the positions they were found in; if those positions are different from the way you left them?

MR. SEGAL: Excuse me. I really must object because we're talking about something that Captain MacDonald has not seen in the sense that Captain Somers is characterizing positions and I'm not at all sure it's really at variance with what he said. It may be that if the government persists in this area, we'll have to consider looking at the pictures. I don't desire that procedure, but the characterization of the question suggested, we'll have to do that.

COL ROCK: Counselor, let me see those.

(CPT Somers handed some photos to Colonel Rock.)

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, this particular area here, this witness has answered the questions two to three times as to how he left this particular child and the position she was found in at a later time is something properly for argument, but not for questioning, because this witness has answered the question to the best of his knowledge, and that's it.
Now as far as what purpose would be gained by showing him these pictures, I can't see. He was not there, according to his testimony, at the time the photographs were taken, so unless you can show some reason to -- for the necessity of displaying these before him, I don't think it's a proper avenue.

CPT SOMERS: I would like to know if that's the position he left the girls in and there's only one way, as the defense counsel points out, to be sure, and that's to show him the pictures.

MR. SEGAL: Well, I suggest, sir, that his verbal descriptions seem rather adequate, and he's explained what he means by the terms as far as I can gather, it seems to be reasonably clear. I don't know how much more explicit as the body position would need to be, how it would advance the inquiry in this case is not entirely clear to me, as opposed to the emotional impact is connected -- this may impede in going forward.

CPT SOMERS: It's not clear to me, the positions that he's describing.

COL ROCK: Captain MacDonald, let me ask you this. Could you by either placing yourself on the floor, or placing someone else on the floor in the approximate position that you remember seeing each of the girls? Do you think you can do that?

WITNESS: Well, if you'll let me just expound. Maybe I can just do it verbally.

COL ROCK: Please do.

WITNESS: I don't -- I couldn't do that example, because I don't -- all I remember is that it was not face down. I don't specifically remember even if one of them was more to one side, left or right, even. All I remember is as I tried mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and checked pulses, that I left them more facing upright than down. I don't think I found them on their stomach, and I didn't turn them over, and I didn't leave them on their stomach. That's really what I mean. I can be no more specific even with an example. If I had a doll here as an example, I couldn't do it.

CPT SOMERS: That's satisfactory to me, sir.

COL ROCK: All right, fine, thank you.

Q From Kimberly's room on the second trip around the bedrooms, where did you go?
A From Kimberly's room? I believe to Kristy's room.
Q And this time you did not do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in Kristy's room?
A I don't think so, no.
Q And what did you do with respect to Kris?
A I believe I just checked her pulses and looked at her.
Q What did you do when you had finished that?
A I went outside of the room.
Q And went where?
A I think into the bathroom.
Q Now I am talking about the second time you went into her room.
A Oh, I'm sorry. I was in the hallway now coming out of Kristy's room.
Q And when you got into the hall, what did you do?
A I went towards the kitchen phone.
Q Why?
A I don't have a good reason as to why, I just did it.
Q All right. Did you go to the kitchen phone?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you stop anywhere along the way or do anything else?
A I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I -- I was at the kitchen sink before or after I used the kitchen phone.
Q Did you use the kitchen phone?
A Yes.
Q What happened when you used the kitchen phone?
A I picked the phone up and was going to start to dial and I heard voices.
Q What were these voices saying?
A I don't distinctly remember.
Q As I remember, you said these were female voices?
A Yes, I believe, as I was putting the phone to my ear and getting ready to dial I heard a female voice on the phone, and I think the first thing I heard was, "Is this Captain MacDonald?"
Q What was your response?
A Yes, it is.
Q And did you relate what you wanted?
A Yes.
Q And how did you do that?
A You mean my words?
Q As best as you can remember.
A I just remember saying we needed help and I kept repeating my address, and I don't know if it was her or the Sergeant who said, "What kind of help?" and I said, "Police, MP's, medics and ambulances." And someone yelled, "Make that ASAP from Womack."
Q Once you heard that, what did you do?
A I dropped the phone.
Q Now you say you think you cleaned your hands in the kitchen. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Where, at the sink?
A Yes.
Q With water?
A Yes.
Q Were your hands bloody again?
A I don't distinctly remember looking at them and thinking that. I just remember running water, I think, on two occasions. I think that was at the kitchen sink washing my hands.
Q Now I am going to show you Government Exhibit G-101, page 16, the second question from the bottom and answer.
A Yes.
Q Have you read that?
A Yes.
Q In this answer you indicated that you don't think you washed your hands in the kitchen. Do you remember differently now?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it that makes you remember differently? What's been added or subtracted that makes you remember this difference?
A Well, the first day I went to see a lawyer was April the 7th, and Captain Douthat said the first step would be for me to find out the facts, and he said the easiest way for a witness to remember something is to write it, and he gave me a yellow pad and said spend the next several days writing out every single thing you can remember, and I did that.
Q What did you do when you had finished in the kitchen?
A What do I remember doing?
Q Yes.
A I don't remember anything.
Q I show you page 3 of this same exhibit again, and indicating about 11 lines down from the top, the sentence which begins, "So I left -- " read as much as you need to get to the context.
A Yes.
Q Have you done so?
A Yes.
Q Now I believe this is referring to the kitchen, so you left the phone and you remember going back to look again, but you don't remember that now?
A No, sir.
Q You think your memory then or your memory now was more accurate?
A I think the logical sequence of events is clearer to me now.
Q Your memory now is more accurate?
A The sequence would be more accurate, yes.
Q Well, I am referring to specifically whether you remember leaving the kitchen or not?
A I just remember ending, really, the phone conversation and I don't really remember walking down the hall or anything towards the bedroom. I just remember ending the conversation.
Q Captain MacDonald, during the time that you were assessing the condition of your children and during the viewing of the scene, and you were possessed with a sense of urgency about the situation that you and your family were in, did you at any time attempt to contact your neighbors?
A No, I did not.
Q Why?
A I thought about it one time.
Q Well, why didn't you do it?
A Well, I just thought the phone would be faster. I didn't -- I really didn't know my neighbors that well. I would have to go out of my house and into someone else's house and I felt that the phone was faster. In other words, my neighbors would still have to make a phone call.
Q But the first time you tried to make a phone call, you were not successful, in your estimation, were you?
A Correct.
Q And you still didn't go try your neighbors?
A That's correct.
Q Now doesn't your next door neighbor share the same front porch with you?
A That's correct.
Q So that's not too far, is it? I mean it's fairly close?
A Correct.
Q But you didn't go there?
A No, sir.
Q And you didn't try to go there?
A No, sir.
Q What is the next thing that you remember after being in the kitchen?
A That I was struggling with an MP.
Q What do you mean you were struggling with him?
A Well, he was breathing into my mouth, and I was pushing him away.
Q Do you remember seeing him come in?
A No.
Q Did you tell him you were going into shock?
A Not that I remember.
Q And you don't remember requesting him to give you mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A No, sir.
Q Did you at anytime -- well, let me withdraw that. What did you say to this man, if anything?
A The initial MP?
Q That right.
A Nothing specifically.
Q Were you asked any questions during the period, while this MP was attempting to give you mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A Yes.
Q What sort of questions were you asked?
A What happened? Who did it? Could you recognize them? Ah -- who are you? You know, what the hell is going on in here? Things along that line.
Q Were you asked anything about your children, or did you say anything about your children?
A Yes, I believe I told them to check my children.
Q Did you tell them anything about the condition of your children?
A Not that I remember.
Q Did you tell them why you wanted them to check them?
A No.
Q You have a foggy memory of being in an ambulance. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q And you -- you remember also being taken out of the house on a stretcher?
A No.
Q Do you remember anything about being on that stretcher?
A I remember falling off it at one time.
Q Do you remember being put back on it or getting back on it?
A Yes -- well, in a hazy fashion, I do. People were just pulling at me and it seemed like a lot of shouting going on.
Q And your next clear memory is of a nurse in the hospital asking you your social security number. Is that right?
A The next clear memory, yes.
Q And during the time you were hospitalized you had time to assess your injuries. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you described yourself as having four injuries to your head. Is that correct?
A No.
Q How many injuries did you have on your head?
A Well, two distinct ones in the frontal area, on my forehead and I had a couple of lumps, that could add up to four, but these weren't really distinct, the ones at the left occipital area.
Q Now, you say you had two on your forehead. Where were they?
A Over the left eyebrow and on the right side of the forehead but really merging with the hairline.
Q And some lump or bumps?
A Yes.
Q Above and behind your left ear?
A Yes.
Q Did you hear the testimony of Doctor Jacobson here?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you hear him say that he found only the contusion on your forehead?
A Yes.
Q And did you hear him say that he had felt your head for neurological symptoms?
A No.
Q But you think he's incorrect in his assessment of your head injuries?
A No. He didn't say that he felt my head for neurological symptoms. I think he said he examined my head briefly for bumps. I'm just being specific. What you said is not what he said.
Q Very good, very good, that's perfectly correct. But he didn't find any other bumps?
A That's what he said.
Q And describe the injuries on your body which --
A Describe them again?
Q Yes, please.
A In the right chest area, in the 7th intercostal space, roughly in the mid-clavicular, there was a puncture wound.
Q Would you point to that please?
A Yes, it is right here.
Q Now you are pointing -- what? Two inches above and three or four inches to the right of your belly button, if I may use that term?
A Well, it would be easier to say it was roughly four inches lateral to the tip of my sternum.
Q Go ahead.
A There were several small puncture wounds of the left upper chest.
Q How many?
A I really don't specifically remember. Three or four.
Q Go ahead.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, what is the purpose of going back through all this again so far as the wounds goes? He has described them in great detail.

COL ROCK: Also, I have plenty of testimony from the examining physician as well.

CPT SOMERS: I want to be sure that I understand fully what injuries he's describing because I have a few questions with respect to them.

Q Please, go ahead.
A There were several, what appeared to me to be small, small puncture wounds, on the left of the chest and some scratches. On the abdominal area, there was sort of a Y-shaped, with the Y down --
Q You mean the opening --
A The opening of the Y down, a laceration in the left upper quadrant, about three inches long. Lateral to the laceration, there were three puncture wounds, and to the right of that laceration there were eight to ten puncture wounds and some minor scratches.
Q Now several people, doctor, including Doctor Jacobson and one of the medics who attended you, have also described your injuries, as they saw them. None of them described any of these small puncture wounds on the abdomen, did they?
A No.
Q So none of the people who testified here saw what you are describing as small puncture wounds, as far as we know. When did you first notice them?
A As I was examining myself either late Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday, looking at my abdomen. These were closed and they weren't bleeding. It's not a matter of missing lacerations.
Q I see. How about bruises, black and blue marks? Did you have any of those?
A Did I have any?
Q Right.
A I developed them. Black and blue areas don't occur until three or four days later.
Q All right, where were they?
A They -- there was a large one on my upper arm. There was one, the bruise on my left forehead turned black and blue. The bruise on my right forehead turned mildly black and blue. The -- I had some small bumps on my left forearm that were slightly black and blue.
Q How about your pectoral area or your abdominal area?
A Well, they wouldn't -- black and blue is a condition of the breakdown of products of blood, and you wouldn't have black and blue unless there was blood leaking out of a vessel.
Q But you didn't have any black and blue marks then?
A No.
Q In that area, to qualify it for the record.
A No.
Q But that is the area that you were receiving this rain of blows in, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q Now I want to turn our attention to a little different matter at this time. You had two children. Both of these were delivered by Cesarean, were they not?
A Yes, sir.
Q And was it the first or the second of the two children that your wife almost died, as we heard Mr. Kassab describe?
A The second, Kristy.
Q This, I gather, would have been a fairly frightening experience.
A Yes, sir, it sure was.
Q Now when you discovered that Colette was pregnant this time, were you afraid for her safety?
A No, it would be a difficult delivery, but I wasn't really afraid for her safety.
Q When did you first discover that she was pregnant?
A I don't remember the specific time. It was late October or early November. It was in November, 1969.
Q And how did you describe your relationship with your wife during the months prior to this horrible tragedy?
A How did I describe my relationship with her?
Q Yes.
A I believe I described it as that I loved her more than anything in the world.
Q And that you were very happy during the period that you were in the Army?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have any occasions to go to Texas?
A Yes.
Q How often?
A Once.
Q When?
A It was on a weekend in December.
Q How long did you spend there?
A We got there Friday afternoon and left Sunday.
Q What did you go down there for?
A I was the medical coverage for a jump of Special Forces medics in training.
Q And where did you stay while you were down there?
A At a motel.
Q Did you have any company at that motel?
A Yes.

MR. SEGAL: Excuse me. At this time I would object and ask for an offer of proof and ask the witness to be excluded, as an off the record offer of proof regarding this line of questioning.

CPT BEALE: The witness will excuse himself temporarily.

(Captain MacDonald left the hearing room.)

COL ROCK: We will take a recess.

(The hearing recessed at 1420 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1429 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, including the witness, Captain MacDonald. Sir, I remind you again, you are under oath.
My ruling is that the objection of the counsel for the accused to this line of questioning is overruled. The counsel for the government will proceed.

Q On that evening in Texas, did you have female companionship?
A Which evening?
Q Did you have companionship with you in the motel in Texas during that stay?
A Yes, sir.
Q And was that female a woman by the name of Judy DeWitt?
A That is not the name I knew her by.
Q Was it member of the Women's Army Corps? Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q And did you have sexual contact with this woman?
A Well, if you can define the term, I can answer that.
Q Did you have any type of sexual contact with this woman?
A Yes.
Q Has this type of sexual activity ever been repeated during your marriage, before or after, with someone other that your wife?
A Before or after?
Q Before or after this time in Texas?
A Yes, sir.
Q How often?
A Very, very infrequently.
Q How often is very infrequently?
A Well, the only one I distinctly remember is once before in San Antonio in July 1969.
Q How did these events affect your relationship with your wife?
A They didn't affect it.
Q Did you tell her?
A No, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I think that completes this line of questioning.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed until 1500 this afternoon.

(The hearing recessed at 1440 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1504 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties that were present at the beginning of the recess are currently in the hearing room, to include the witness, Captain MacDonald. Captain MacDonald, I again remind you that you are under oath, sir. Proceed, counsel for the government.

Q Captain MacDonald, did you ever have an argument with your wife? I presume you did.
A Surely.
Q Did you have occasion to raise your voice while speaking to her?
A I don't distinctly remember, but I'm sure it must have happened some time.
Q Did you ever strike her?
A No.
Q Now, in the discipline of your children, how did you normally handle that?
A Verbally.
Q Did you have occasion to spank either of them?
A Not as a serious matter, no. Playfully, a tap on the rear end.
Q But not ever as punishment?
A No.
Q Did you ever have occasion to disagree with your wife or have an argument with your wife with respect to Kristen getting in bed with you?
A No.
Q As I understand it, she was going to raise this with her instructor in class. Is that what you said?
A I don't believe so, no. I mean she didn't tell me ahead of time, I don't think. We discussed it -- it's such a small point, I don't -- I don't remember any specific conversations.
Q Well, you don't remember then her ever telling you that she was going to bring it up with her instructor in class?
A I'm not sure. I knew she was in a child psychology course, and perhaps at one time I said, "Why don't you check with him?"
Q Did she have occasion to tell you that she had done that?
A Not specifically, no.
Q Well, I'm a little confused by that answer?
A Well, we, I believe, that night when she came back, spoke about the problem, but she didn't say to me that she had brought it up in class.
Q Well, to what extent did you speak about the problem? Can you give us a general description?
A Yes, we barely mentioned it, and she might have said something like, "We were talking about bedwetting tonight." And I said, "Terrific, what did you learn?" Something like that.
Q Do you think this would have related to the problem with Kristy?
A I'm not trying to be facetious. It's just so unimportant to me. We never really went into that problem.
Q Well, I am just trying to discover what you do remember, Captain MacDonald. Do you think that her remark was related to this problem with Kristy?
A Conceivably, it could have been, yes. I didn't -- I don't have any remembrance of thinking one way or the other.
Q And that's the only discussion you would have had about that problem the evening of the 16th?
A About the bedwetting problem, coming into your bed?
Q Yes.
A No, my wife and I had discussed it.
Q On the 16th?
A I think that she just mentioned that she had talked with her professor about children coming to bed, but I'm not even sure of that. We had talked about her coming in the bed before between us, but I don't specifically remember when. I just remember it is the type of thing we were discussing.
Q And this problem never became a bone of contention, so to speak, between you and your wife?
A Absolutely not.
Q Did you have an occasion to say anything to your wife when you found Kristen in bed the night of the 16th?
A No.
Q About how many people from the 6th, did you counsel -- I mean the 6th Special Forces Group, obviously -- on drug problems who actually were what you classified as drug abusers?
A Three or four.
Q This is the total as best you can remember?
A Oh, yes, I was only in the 6th for a short period of time.
Q And this lecture which was given in which the lack of privilege between doctor and patient in the military was in the 6th, was it not?
A Yes.
Q Did any of the patients that we've just described ever threaten you?
A That I took care of from 6th Group?
Q Right.
A No, sir.
Q Did any of them ever give you any reason or occasion to fear for your own safety?
A No, sir.
Q How many drug abusers total do you think you treated at Cape Fear Valley Hospital?
A I don't remember. I'd have to look back how many nights I worked and multiple that figure by one or two per night. I would say -- I couldn't give you an answer that would make any sense. It would be a guess.
Q All right. I take it then that it's obviously more than one or two?
A Yes.
Q Did any of them ever threaten you?
A Sure.
Q How many?
A Multiple occasions. They always do.
Q What do -- what is it they always threaten you with?
A Well, not one specific thing, but a common bad drug reaction is acute paranoia, and acute psychotic break with reality where they are fearful of everything, and any movement even disturbs them in a psychotic fashion and they often try to strike back or run away or threaten to kill you if you touch them.
Q And you are talking about now the effects of the reaction of the drug, or reaction to the drug -- I'm sorry?
A Yes. Now you can't always tell. It could be a reaction to the drug. It could be the person's -- part of that can be from the person himself; it's a combination often between the person's psychiatric problem and his drug abuse.
Q Captain MacDonald, I am giving you now, Exhibit A-36, A-31, A-40 and A-41. These are, I believe, the composite drawings that you assisted an artist in making. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q As I understand, what you told me in this hearing before, A-36, the picture of the man with the mustache, and the picture of the Negro, which is A-41, I believe, these are the two that you remember best. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q How well do you see without your glasses? Can you describe it? First of all, do you know the number in terms of 20-20 system?
A No, I don't. It's on my medical records in various forms. Everywhere it is from 20-70 to 20-200. I don't really know what it is.
Q Well, is your vision such that you would normally choose to wear glasses?
A Certainly.
Q And as I understand what you said, it was quite dark in the house when these four people appeared in your living room. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q So that your own vision was uncorrected and it was dark, but these are, as I understand it, even in spite of those things, your best estimate of what these people looked like. Is that correct?
A Yes, but I should clarify the vision thing a little bit.
Q Please do.
A Well, I am nearsighted. I can see -- there are two different types of people who need glasses. People who can see things far away and need glasses for near, or people who can see near things, but need glasses for far away, which I am. So, that's just to put it in perspective, but yes, I was not wearing my glasses, and this is my best recollection of how I saw the people that night.
Q Now, as I understand the technique that was used to make these things, these pictures, you were shown a basic face outline with various variations, or eyes, noses, and mouths, until things seemed to matched fairly well. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How much time, all total, do you think you spent looking at the faces of these people?
A Oh, a matter of seconds.
Q How many?
A I have no idea.
Q Less than thirty?
A Looking at the faces?
Q Yes.
A Yeah, I'd say less than thirty.
Q How long would you estimate the incident with the four people in your living room lasted?
A Well, I have no really accurate way to estimate it. I would say it -- it was over very quickly.
Q Less than a minute, you think?
A I would say that would be a fair estimate.
Q On the 6th of April when you were interrogated, to use your word, by the Criminal Investigation people, you say that they turned a light in your face. Is that correct?
A Well, sort of, yes.
Q What kind of light was it?
A I don't distinctly remember. I think it was a desk lamp with a long bulb.
Q Are you describing a fluorescent lamp?

MR. SEGAL: I think the answer was not complete, excuse me.

A I don't really remember, but I have the impression that it was the long type of a fluorescent desk lamp.
Q During this period of interrogation were you physically abused in any way?
A No.
Q But you understood, as I gathered, in the beginning, that what you were doing was simply clearing up a few discrepancies?
A Well, that's what I'd been told. I had no reason to believe otherwise.
Q Did the manner in which this statement, or both of these statements were taken, affect your ability to tell the truth to them?
A I don't understand that.
Q Were the agents using any kind of technique, do you think, which caused you to tell less than the truth, or other than the truth?
A Well, I don't believe I told other than the truth.
Q I'm not saying that you did. I just asked if you felt that these techniques caused you to tell anything other than the truth.
A I don't want to confuse --

CPT BEALE: Just a second, Captain MacDonald. Captain Somers, can't you phrase that a little bit more clearly? The man has said that in his opinion he told the truth. What difference does it make -- does the techniques have to do with it?

Q Captain MacDonald, the question of whether anything was missing from your house has been raised, and you've spoken about some rings as possibly being missing from the house. Isn't it true that you don't know whether these rings are missing from the house or not?
A That's correct.
Q And it is true, is it not, that you got your wallet back?
A Yes.
Q At this time, Captain MacDonald, I show you Government Exhibit 79 and ask you to look at it. Have you had an opportunity to look at it to your satisfaction?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever seen that before?
A Conceivably it could have been a piece of wood that we used behind the house. I don't specifically recognize the single piece of wood. I had wood from the 3d Special Forces Group that I used for many reasons, building fires, cooking things.
Q Well, you did see, at least briefly, didn't you? The club that was used on you, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Could that be it?
A It could be.

COL ROCK: Excuse me. What exhibit is that?

CPT SOMERS: 79.

Q I show you now Government Exhibit 86. Have you ever seen that exhibit before?
A Not specifically. I'm not saying that's not possible. It could be.
Q Could it have come from the lumber that you had?
A Certainly.
Q I show you Government Exhibit 84, and except in the hands of investigators or in this hearing, have you ever seen that exhibit before?
A No, sir.
Q And I think for the record, that I'll state that that is a paring knife. Is it not? Or a similar instrument?
A It could be.
Q And do you note that it has a curve blade?
A Yes.
Q Could that instrument have come from your kitchen?
A I don't ever -- believe I've ever seen this instrument, so I would say no.
Q You think not?
A Right.
Q Are you absolutely certain?
A Yes.
Q I show you Government Exhibit 82 and ask you to look at it. Except in the hands of investigators or in this hearing, have you ever seen that knife before?
A No.
Q Could it have come from your kitchen?
A No.
Q And you feel certain about that too.
A Yes.
Q Now you -- I show you Government Exhibit 83 and ask you to examine it. Except in the hands of an investigator or in this hearing room, have you ever seen that ice pick before?
A No, sir.
Q Could it have come from your house?
A No.
Q And you feel certain about that?
A Yes.
Q I show you Government Exhibit 73 and I ask you to examine it. Have you ever seen that white material before?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It appears to be a -- a bath mat with the name Hilton on it that I think is from our house, or similar to the one that's in the house.
Q I show you Government Exhibit 82 and 84 once more. You say you remember pulling a knife out of your wife's chest. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you think it one of those knives?
A I don't know.
Q Are you saying you just aren't sure or you don't know?
A I'm not sure. It was -- I saw a -- what appeared to be a brown handle, in the upper part of her chest and I took it out.
Q How big a knife was it?
A I have no recollection of that at all.
Q Let's see if we can describe some bounds. Was it smaller than a butcher knife?
A It was in the size range of these knives.
Q I see. Do you have any loose lumber in your house -- did you, on the night of the 16th?
A In the house?
Q In the house.
A None that I know of.
Q Is it possible that you did, without you knowing it?
A Inside the house?
Q Yes.
A Certainly, it's possible.
Q And you kept, I gather, some of this lumber in a storage shed, some of the lumber that you had?
A Yes, there were several places we kept it.
Q Where were those places?
A There was some in the storage shed. There was some in the crawl way under the house. I had some longer pieces usually, and we also had a lot of wood in the well that we used as kindling for charcoal grilling.
Q Where is that well?
A It's been previously described. It's right behind the house, roughly behind Kristy's bedroom.
Q Was your storage shed locked that night, do you know?
A I assume it was. I don't know for a fact.

COL ROCK: Counselor, when you refer to lumber, are you indicating that you think this qualifies as lumber, or were you referring to lumber as it comes from a lumber yard?

CPT SOMERS: In my opinion, sir, for that matter -- well, let me rephrase that. When I refer to lumber I mean any piece of wood larger than a match stick.

COL ROCK: All right, fine. And Captain MacDonald, did you understand when he was placing the question?

CPT MacDONALD: Yes, I just meant pieces of wood, Colonel Rock.

COL ROCK: Thank you.

CPT SOMERS: At this time, sir, I ask that these photographs I hand to the investigating officer be marked.

COL ROCK: Let's show these to the defense before I mark them.

CPT SOMERS: Let the record reflect that I have shown these two photographs to the defense counsel.

COL ROCK: Government Exhibit 105, photo of apparent female with long black hair. G-106, photo of male with small mustache.

Q Captain MacDonald, I show you a photograph marked G-106 and ask that you examine it closely, please. Have you had sufficient opportunity to examine it?
A Yes.
Q Do you think you've ever seen the human being that it represents before?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Very good. Now I show you the photograph marked G-105 and ask you to examine it closely. Have you had sufficient opportunity?
A Yes.
Q Do you think that you've ever seen the girl that that represents before?
A No.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, at this time government would like about a ten minute recess to consider just exactly how much more we have to do.

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I would most respectfully object. I do not wish to deny the government proper latitude, which is their functional responsibility. It just seems to me we are heading to a collision which may prevent the investigating officer and defense counsel of any questions, from being able to complete this examination today, and I would urge the government, if it can in good conscience to try and finish at this time without any further delays.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, we do not want much time. I can estimate now that we have very little left for the government, that it will not delay this hearing very much. But we would request a five to ten minute --

COL ROCK: Well, with that delay, how much more questioning, once we reconvene, do you anticipate?

CPT SOMERS: I anticipate less than half an hour.

COL ROCK: Permission granted.

(The hearing recessed at 1555 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1610 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the beginning of the recess are currently in the hearing room. Captain MacDonald, I again remind you that are under oath. Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Now Captain MacDonald, as I understand it, during one of your trips to the children's bedrooms to check them, in each case you gave them, both Kim and Kris mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Is that correct?
A Would you repeat the question again?
Q I'm trying to cover the whole thing. On one or the other of the trips through the children's bedrooms, you gave the children mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You never did mention that in fact in your statement of the 6th or to Mr. Caverly, did you? Would you like to examine that?
A No, I don't. I was never asked that, I don't remember.
Q Now as I understand your testimony, when you regained consciousness -- this is going to be long. I better warn you ahead of time. I'll try to keep it simple -- When you regained consciousness, you went first to the master bedroom, then to each of the children's bedrooms, then to the bathroom, probably. Okay, so far?
A Right.
Q From the bathroom you went back to the master bedroom. During that stay of the master bedroom you checked the back door at some point?
A Correct.
Q You went back to each of the children's bedrooms?
A Right.
Q And into the kitchen?
A Right.
Q Did you spend any amount of time during this period after you had got to your feet on your hands and knees?
A That's unclear in my own mind. At one time I was next to Colette on my knees. I am not sure if I ever really got on them again. I was having trouble breathing and when I was checking Colette -- I don't know which time -- it was easier to breathe if I was hunching forward, sort of on my hands and knees, and I don't specifically remember much else about being on my hands and knees.
Q Then I gather except for in the master bedroom near Colette you don't remember being on your hands and knees?
A Distinctly, no.
Q Do you indistinctly?
A Yes.
Q Do you indistinctly remember when or where?
A I don't know if it was when I -- I think that I -- when I came back the second time into the master bedroom. In checking Colette I must have been on my hands and knees or something, and I remember just pausing for a second from doing anything else, and just trying to breathe, in which case I was on the floor. I don't know if I was really on my hands and knees.
Q Did you have occasion to go to Patchogue or that general vicinity in the late fall of 1969?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have occasion to see your brother while you were there?
A Yes.
Q Did you at anytime while you were there on that trip visit the Short Stop Bar?
A Yes.
Q And did you see your brother there?
A Yes.
Q And did you see any of his friends with him?
A Yes.

CPT SOMERS: Sir: I would like at this point to explain that with reference to Government G-106, excuse me, let me start that sentence again. G-106 is a police photograph of an individual apprehended in Fayetteville matching, to me, a possible description, and it has no other significance. Government Exhibit G-105, I will identify in detail subsequently in this proceeding.
Your witness.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Captain MacDonald, you described coming to consciousness while you were partly on the steps and partly in the hallway that led to your master bedroom. Do you recall that description?
A Yes.
Q And you've also described how your feet were, et cetera. In getting to your feet from that position, did you at anytime come to a hands and knees position?
A I probably did.
Q You described the various efforts you made in regard to the struggle that you had on the couch with the various people. Did you actually ever get off of the couch entirely? While you were engaged in the struggle, that is?
A Well, my only recollection would be as a -- as I was falling off it, not standing off of it, no.
Q You described the paranoia that drug users have from a bad reaction or from their own personality problems, but essentially bad drugs. Can you indicate whether one of the fears in this paranoia state includes the fear of being turned over to law enforcement authorities?

CPT SOMERS: I object to that as completely leading, and it calls for a conclusion.

CPT BEALE: You objection is overruled. You may answer, Captain MacDonald.

A Would you repeat that again?
Q You described the -- one of the reactions you were treating here at civilian hospitals, and on occasion militarily, was a paranoia reaction stemming from the use of drugs or some basic instability in the personality of the individual. Now what I asked you was whether one of the features of this paranoia of a drug abuser the fear of being turned over to law enforcement authorities?
A It can be.
Q Captain MacDonald, you were questioned in regards to what happened when you went to the back door and looked out and saw no one, and some questions of why you did not go to your neighbors. Were any of your near neighbors persons who either were physicians or otherwise medically trained to treat serious injuries?
A Not that I knew of.
Q In regard to the examination made of you by Doctor Jacobson in the hospital, what type of an examination was it?
A It was an emergency room evaluation.
Q Is that kind of evaluation different from any other type of evaluation of a doctor trained in Doctor Jacobson's line could perform?
A Yes, sir, it sure is.
Q Would you describe the difference between emergency room evaluation and whatever the proper name for a subsequent type of examination?
A When a person comes in the emergency room, the emergency room is there, you know, for its name -- emergency room, supposedly -- and when you have an emergency patient come in, your first duty is to check for life threatening situations and act thereon. If the patient needs admission to the hospital, you admit them. Those are really the basic reasons for an emergency room.
Q Now when a doctor makes an examination for head injuries in the emergency room, how would that differ, if it does in anyway, from a subsequent evaluation?
A Well, I am a little bit confused, but I can clear it up myself, I think.
Q All right, describe the difference, as you know it to be.
A Well, the emergency room physician comes down, and sees, supposedly, acutely ill people, and he -- he attempts life saving steps, if it's necessary, and he admits them to the hospital if necessary. The patient then undergoes a complete evaluation by either the same person or another physician. The emergency room physician is not responsible for a complete history and physical.
Q Did Doctor Jacobson feel all the portions of your head with his hand in order to make a neurological evaluation on the emergency room basis that he did?
A Not that I remember.
Q What did he do basically to determine whether you had any serious head injuries?
A He leaned over me and he pressed on the large area that was bruised over my left forehead, and he looked in my eyes and he asked me some questions, which is a way of checking mental status. But I'm not criticizing Doctor Jacobson. That's what you do in the emergency room.
Q That wouldn't be a substitute for a subsequent full neurological check to see whether --

CPT SOMERS: I object to that. That is entirely leading.

CPT BEALE: Sustained.

Q You were asked by Government counsel as to whether your ability to order and relate the sequence of events on the night of February 17th was better now than it was on April the 6th, when you were interviewed by the CID. Do you recall that question?
A Yes, I do.
Q And what is your answer to that question? I want to preface my next question.
A I can relate the events in a more logical sequence now than I could April the 6th.
Q Why is that so?
A I partially answered this before. April 6th was the first time that I had been questioned about this since I was in the hospital during which time I had been questioned what I considered very cursory. There was no attempt that I know of, to follow the chain of events ever. This was the first attempt I ever made. I had been -- had been spending approximately six weeks trying not to remember it, and I wasn't sleeping nights and having nightmares about it and this was the first time I went over it.
Q And what was the reason that you -- strike that. Are you telling us that you had no occasion at all to try and put the events in their chronological sequence between the time you went to the hospital to April the 6th? For your own purposes or anyone else's purposes.

CPT SOMERS: I object to that. He's still leading.

CPT BEALE: Rephrase your question, Mr. Segal.

Q Did you have occasion to put the -- were you ever asked by anyone between the time you -- between the 17th of February to the 6th of April to relate the instances that had taken place in a chronological fashion?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever desire to do so for your own purpose?
A For my own purpose?
Q Yes, sir.
A No, sir.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further at this time, sir.

CPT SOMERS: I have a few questions.

COL ROCK: Yes.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Doctor Jacobson treated you in the emergency room. Is that correct, doctor?
A Yes, he did.
Q Isn't it also true that he remained or treated you subsequently for a period of an hour or two?
A Well, when you say he was responsible for me, yes, but he wasn't -- he wasn't like -- he was never in my physical presence.
Q He was never in your physical presence again after the emergency room?
A No, he wasn't in my presence for the next hour or two. He did come in and out.
Q Now I'm not sure that I understand your answer with respect to Doctor Jacobson's check of your head. Are you saying that he did not physically feel or examine your whole head at any time?
A That is correct.
Q Now you say that you remember the sequence of events of the night of the 16th and the morning of the 17th better now that you've had time to go over it sequentially. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How about whether or not something happened -- we are not talking now about that it happened -- but whether it happened or not such as whether you washed your hands in the kitchen?
A The best way that I can answer that is that some little -- what I consider to be little, minor things which has come to me. I would just remember them all of a sudden, very often, only under close questioning by my counsel after April 7th, and I would have to say yes, I remember more now than I did then.
Q Now I show you an extract of your statement of the 6th of April in which you said you remembered leaving the kitchen and going back and checking the children. Do you remember seeing that -- that extract?
A That isn't what I said.
Q Okay, perhaps you can tell me what it did say.

MR. SEGAL: No, that's objected to.

CPT BEALE: Show him the statement.

CPT SOMERS: I'm going to.

Q I show you page 3 from Exhibit 101 and with reference to the contents of the top paragraph, specifically the sentence, one, two, three, four lines up from the bottom of that paragraph.
A Yes. That is not what you said.
Q Very good. Would you read that aloud? That's probably the best thing, so we'll all know what it does say.
A "So I left the phone and I remember going back to look again, and the next thing I knew an MP was giving me mouth-to-mouth respiration next to my wife."
Q So at the time you gave this statement you did remember leaving the kitchen?
A No.
Q That's not what it says?

MR. SEGAL: That's objected to.

CPT BEALE: The witness has answered the question. Now do you care to explain it, Captain MacDonald?
A Yes.

CPT SOMERS: Well, feel free.

A What I mean -- that does not say that I remember walking down the hall from the kitchen. I was at the kitchen and the next thing I knew I was in the bedroom, that I remembered, and, you know, I just assumed that I left the kitchen and walked down the hallway. That's why I said that. I didn't say I remembered walking down the hallway. I don't even remember leaving the kitchen.

COL ROCK: Could you please explain that once more?

WITNESS: Sir, I am trying to make a differentiation between what I distinctly remember and anything else, and if someone says to me, do you remember walking out of the kitchen or walking down the hall, no, I do not distinctly remember that from that night.

COL ROCK: Your statement is, I remember going to look again. What does that mean to you?

WITNESS: I really don't know what that means, from that, sir.

COL ROCK: Okay.

WITNESS: Now, you know --

COL ROCK: You are free to express yourself.

WITNESS: What I was probably trying to say was that I finished the phone call and I was now going back to the bedrooms and check them again, or something along that line, but it doesn't -- I don't remember doing that.
Q Is it possible that you remembered something then that you do not remember now?
A Yes.

CPT SOMERS: No further questions. Excuse me. I do, I'm sorry; I do have one more question that I'd overlooked.

Q You say that you were never asked, until the 6th of April, to relate what happened on the evening and morning of the 16th and the17th chronologically. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q By that I gather you mean that Mr. Caverly did not ask you to do that?
A Mr. Caverly and I had a two-way discussion. He was asking me things and I was mainly saying yes and no.
Q Did he, at some point, ask you to relate the events of the evening?
A Yes, but I kept crying -- I was falling asleep -- I was upset, and he would give me some water. This was not a situation where I sat down and ran through a series of events at all. It's entirely the wrong implication.
Q Then you are saying, to you, what he was asking was not a request for a chronological relation of the events?
A No, he wanted a chronological series of events, but much of his statement is based on my answers to his questions. For instance, when you got up from the hallway floor, did you go to the master bedroom? Yeah. And so he says that Captain MacDonald said that when he got up from the hallway floor he went to the master bedroom. You see, there's a difference. There was a two-way discussion.

CPT SOMERS: I understand. That does complete my examination.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further at this time, sir.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed for approximately ten minutes and I would like to see representatives of both counsels in my office before my questioning begins.

(The hearing recessed at 1640 hours, 16 August 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1657 hours, 16 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room. Captain MacDonald, I again remind you, you are under oath.

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I have two very brief matters I wish to ask, unless you wish me to defer it until you are finished. It may be overlapping.

COL ROCK: Proceed. I trust these will be the last ones.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, I hope so.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Captain MacDonald, when you were at Hamlet Hospital from 6 a.m. on the 15th until 6 a.m. on the 16th, did you have occasion to treat any wounds during that period of service?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of wounds did you treat?
A I don't remember specifically. I was suturing at least one patient. I think it was an automobile accident, and probably several other minor sutures.
Q What were you wearing for your vision during the period of time you were working in Hamlet Hospital on that day?
A My glasses.
Q Did you ever have occasion when you wore your glasses on hospital duty to have your glasses contaminated with any matter?
A Absolutely.
Q What sort of contamination?
A Dirt, dust, blood, anything.
Q Could you just clarify the area in regard to the answers you were giving to Mr. Caverly when you indicated the question and answer situation? Did you ever give any full narrative type answers to a question that he gave?
A I did give some, yes, but for Colonel Rock's benefit, I'd like just to make a statement to clarify -- I know there are some things unsettled in your mind about what I said before.
Q Well, just answer my question. Was there some situation, Captain MacDonald, in regards to the procedure whereby you were given -- giving answers to Mr. Caverly?
A That isn't clear. Your question isn't clear.
Q All right, let me rephrase it. Did Mr. Caverly ask you whether certain facts were correct or not?
A Yes, he did.
Q How did you answer such questions that were put to you?
A Sometimes I would say yes or no. Very often it was, it's impossible, it's conceivable, along that line.
Q Can you give us a specific example in that regard?
A Yes, sir, I can. I noticed in his description of the four assailants, he has, on one of the males, a red hooded sweat shirt.
Q Do you know how that came about?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Would you describe it please?
A He said to me, do you -- did you notice anything about the clothing. This is in regards to the Caucasian males, and I said I remembered they had what I thought were light-colored, lightweight jackets on, and then I said the man with the mustache had, either his collar was up or there was something about his neck, and the only example I could think of -- I said it was like when you see a person with a hooded sweat shirt under his jacket. And he said, do you mean like the red sweat shirts the football players wear, and I said, right. Now in his description, he said I described a male wearing a red hooded sweat shirt which did not transpire.

MR. SEGAL: That's all.

COL ROCK: Captain MacDonald, I'll now ask you a few questions. Reference the FBI report again, Government Exhibit 76, on page 4. I hand you herewith, an item I want you to read concerning wearing apparel. I have it marked there in red.

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: Does that refresh your memory?

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: Now we recognize that page 4 is merely a listing of physical descriptions and does not intend to be verbatim testimony that the Captain may have made at that time. In your estimation, the information concerning the colors -- was that as you remember it at that time?

WITNESS: No, sir. This was among the possibilities. He said, is it possible that these could have been darker or lighter, and that's how I said, yes, it is possible, I thought they were light brown, and I did say they were high boots.

COL ROCK: We've heard testimony from you, I believe, in one instance where you stated, if I recall correctly, and please correct me, that you threw your pajama jacket off in the master bedroom, and I believe today you have testified that you dropped your pajama jacket. Try to think very carefully which manner you think best describes how you may have discarded that jacket in the master bedroom.

WITNESS: Well, to the best of my knowledge, both then and now, I was just trying to get it off my hands, and take care of my wife, and I don't distinctly remember anything. I would assume that I just sort of threw it to one side. I would have to use that term.

COL ROCK: Fine. I just wanted to be sure that I got the correct terminology since there seemed to be some difference in the description. At any time, did you see Kristy's head hanging off the bed, her head or her body?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Reference a hair brush that has been mentioned in some of the evidence, of which dark wavy female hair with blonde roots was mentioned, do you have any idea whose hair that was on that hair brush?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you remember what items were on the coffee table that night at the time that you went to bed?

WITNESS: Probably the flower pot with the flower in it, and some magazines, and probably my glasses.

COL ROCK: Now --

WITNESS: I have seen the photograph of the living room, and I know there are some children's things there. I don't remember that being there. It probably was, on top of the magazine. Simply because Kimberly was playing with something that night, and that's probably what it was, and I would have left it.

COL ROCK: Do you remember if your glasses were on that coffee table, if they were there?

WITNESS: No, sir. As a matter of fact, they could even have been on the table behind my head at the end of the couch, but I think more likely they were on the coffee table.

COL ROCK: Do you remember using your glasses at any time after the struggle with the assailants?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you know how O type blood got on your glasses?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you remember at any time approaching the coffee table after the assailants had departed?

WITNESS: No, not distinctly, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you remember it indistinctly?

WITNESS: There are a lot of things that were indistinct about that night, sir.

COL ROCK: I realize that.

WITNESS: After the first phone call when I was on my way to the second phone call, I didn't know what to do, and I was thinking that the first phone call didn't work and should I call the neighbors, and no, I shouldn't call the neighbors, the phone is faster, and I was really wondering -- you know this wasn't a purposeful type of thing that I was doing, as far as circling --

COL ROCK: Wandering or wondering?

WITNESS: Well, I was trying to kind of think of -- and I was thinking of what to do, and as I was walking towards the kitchen, and I could have been right at that coffee table area, but I don't -- I can't distinctly remember standing there, or bending over or doing anything. So I can't -- I'm not gonna try to give you that implication.

COL ROCK: No, I just want the facts. That's all. Do you have any reason to remember if there was blood on your hands when you went to the kitchen?

WITNESS: Just from what I had been doing, checking the -- checking my family, I'm sure there was.

COL ROCK: You don't specifically remember though, do you?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: You assume it could have been?

WITNESS: Yes. In relation to that, when I got to the hospital, I still had blood on my hands, so --

COL ROCK: Now you testified earlier, that you brought surgical gloves home. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And I believe you said in a package?

WITNESS: Well --

COL ROCK: A box?

WITNESS: Yes, it was about a half used box of gloves. Each pair of gloves was still individually packaged inside the box.

COL ROCK: Do you know how many pairs of gloves was in that container? Just roughly, not specifically.

WITNESS: Approximately, I would say about fifteen.

COL ROCK: Of those fifteen, do you know how many had been in the kitchen, I believe you described as a storage spot, and how many have been in -- I think you said the hall closet?

WITNESS: No, sir. I don't know where the full box was kept. All I know is that my wife would shift them around and they were kept somewhere. There were two open pairs of gloves in the house, out of their containers.

COL ROCK: Do you know of any reason, Captain MacDonald, why small pieces of rubber surgical gloves were found in sheets from the bed in the master bedroom?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you have any reason to remember the last time candles were used in the house?

WITNESS: No.

COL ROCK: You don't remember. When was the last time you recall candles being used?

WITNESS: Well, we usually, if we had people over for drinks, say after a movie, and we were just talking, having a drink, we would have lit them. It would have been when someone else was there, not within that prior, at least the prior eight days, because we didn't go out with anyone else that weekend.

COL ROCK: To your knowledge, did either of the children ever play with lighted candles?

WITNESS: No, sir, not with lighted candles.

COL ROCK: During the tragic events of that evening, do you remember crying or sobbing at any time?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: When and where?

WITNESS: What I remember was crying a lot while I was talking to the MP's. I don't specifically remember -- I know when I was walking around that I was crying.

COL ROCK: Prior to the time the MP's arrived?

WITNESS: Yes. But it wasn't -- I don't remember like sobbing or anything, no. I was when the MP's were there.

COL ROCK: Was this loud crying?

WITNESS: You mean when the MP's were there?

COL ROCK: No, prior to the time MP's arrived. I'm sorry. Everything I am talking about is prior to the time that they arrived.

WITNESS: No, sir, I just remember as I was going into the various bedrooms that I -- the tears were running down. I don't even remember like shaking or sobbing in any way.

COL ROCK: No sounds, then?

WITNESS: Right, no sounds.

COL ROCK: Please describe in more detail how you moved the bed covers from the wet spot in the bed in the master bedroom?

WITNESS: I just pushed the covers over towards Colette to expose the wet spot. The bottom sheet was wet and I just pushed the top sheet and the bed covers next to Colette a little bit.

COL ROCK: Do you remember pulling the bottom part of the cover out from the bed?

WITNESS: No, I didn't do that.

COL ROCK: You mentioned in earlier testimony that you have an impression someone was wearing gloves. Were all three males wearing gloves?

WITNESS: Sir, I don't know. I -- during this struggle -- really I'd like to impress how fast this was.

COL ROCK: I am impressed by that.

WITNESS: I grabbed hands at several times, and I had the impression that on both occasions it was gloves, soft, wet, in all honesty, my first recollection was that of a heavier, initial impression of a heavier rubber glove.

COL ROCK: Did it feel like leather?

WITNESS: No sir, it felt like the --

COL ROCK: Cloth?

WITNESS: No.

COL ROCK: Fur?

WITNESS: The gloves?

COL ROCK: Right.

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Plastic?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: It felt heavier than that?

WITNESS: Well, I've been questioned about the pieces of surgical glove in the master bedroom, but it felt heavier to me than surgeon's gloves on the hands, the hands that I grabbed that had this sensation.

COL ROCK: Do you have any impression as to whether or not the Negro was wearing gloves?

WITNESS: I'm not sure. As I was -- you know -- sliding off of his arm onto the club, it isn't clear in my mind.

COL ROCK: How do you account for the appearance of scratches on your chest, Captain MacDonald?

WITNESS: Well, from the, I just assumed from the -- the struggle. I don't -- I didn't mean to imply that for instance these were nail scratches. I had some marks of -- it wasn't a hand print or anything like that.

COL ROCK: I believe you testified earlier today or yesterday that you probably used the small bath to wash your teeth. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: I would now like to show you page 10 of Government Exhibit 101, and refer to the next to the last question by Shaw.

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: Do you remember checking the rear door to the utility room as you came out of that bath?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Were you wearing a watch that evening when you went to bed?

WITNESS: I don't know, sir.

COL ROCK: Did you have occasion to look at any -- did you have any occasion to look at any clocks or watches subsequent to the time of the struggle with your assailants and until the time that the military police arrived?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: During the struggle, did you hear any furniture overturned?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you know why you dropped the phone in the master bedroom when you completed your conversation, rather than place it back on the cradle?

WITNESS: I don't know if I did that, sir. I -- I just -- my recollection is that I -- I don't know what I did, but I think I just dropped it. I may have laid it on the counter. I couldn't have laid it on the cradle, but I don't know why. I was stunned by her -- by her reaction, and I was -- you know -- trying to get help and she didn't appear willing to give it, and I didn't know what to do.

COL ROCK: And you feel fairly confident that you did not place it on the cradle of the phone but that you either left it dangling or on the bureau or someplace other?

WITNESS: I just have the feeling that I was walking away from the phone. After she said that, I just dropped it and walked over to Colette.

COL ROCK: I believe you said earlier something to the effect that when you went to Colette, that you thought you could see her chest. Was it exposed, that is was the pajama top open?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: The pajama top was open?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you at any time remember attempting to close the pajama top?

WITNESS: Not specifically. I could have tried, but I -- I don't -- I just remember placing my pajama top over her chest.

COL ROCK: When drug users threatened you while on duty at Cape Fear Valley Hospital, what specific words did they use when they threatened you, if you can remember?

WITNESS: Well, I don't want you to get the wrong implication of what I am saying. This was not a frequent occurrence.

COL ROCK: I realize that.

WITNESS: And usually this is a -- a -- they are afraid of anything, and they're just threatening anything and everyone who's in their vicinity.

COL ROCK: Did anyone ever specifically threaten you by specific words?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: What were those words, if you can remember?

WITNESS: "I'm going to kill you. I'll get you," or "You'll be sorry for doing that" or things along that line.

COL ROCK: Fine. Thank you.
Captain MacDonald, did you murder Colette and your children?

WITNESS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: I have no further questions. Does either counsel wish to question the accused?

MR. SEGAL: We have nothing further, sir.

COL ROCK: Does counsel for the government wish to have any further questions?

CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions.

COL ROCK: This witness is excused. Captain MacDonald, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with anyone other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused. Do you understand?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed.

MR. SEGAL: I have one document to put in evidence, if I may, sir.
Sir, there is a witness that the government noticed us of by the name of First Lieutenant Ronald H. Harrison, who was never called by the government in connection with these proceedings. He was held, as I understand, for several weeks while these proceedings were going on, and then released and he has gone to Vietnam. I knew he was under orders, I gather, before these proceedings. The government held him. In the absence of his --

COL ROCK: Held him as a suspect?

MR. SEGAL: No, no, no, held him as a potential witness, sir. In that regard, we have a sworn statement by this witness; I'd like to have marked at this time as an accused exhibit. I have copies that I will hand to the government, sir.

CPT SOMERS: The government has no objection.

COL ROCK: This will be entered as Accused Exhibit 43, sworn statement of First Lieutenant Ronald H. Harrison.
Is there any further business to be brought before the hearing at this time?

MR. SEGAL: Nothing on behalf of the accused.

CPT SOMERS: I have nothing further. I have a minor administrative matter off the record.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed until 0830 hours on 25 August 1970.

(The hearing recessed at 1715 hours, 16 August 1970.)

 

 

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