ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
August 15, 1970: Captain Jeffrey MacDonald
MR. SEGAL: Sir, at this time it would be the juncture at which we would offer Captain MacDonald's testimony. I am at the pleasure of the investigating officer -- if you'd like us to proceed at this time or not.
COL ROCK: Well, as I had indicated, I do want to see the transcripts of the tapes prior to his examination; however, I've now changed my mind. I will do it prior to the cross-examination. I understand that counsel for the government and counsel for the accused have agreed to an arrangement whereby I will have those made available to me prior to the cross-examination. Is that correct?
MR. SEGAL: We are ready to proceed that way, sir.
CPT SOMERS: That's fine, sir.
COL ROCK: You may proceed. We are ready to proceed when you are, counselor. This will be sworn testimony?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, it will be.
(Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald was called, sworn and testified as follows.)
COL ROCK: Now, just prior to the witness speaking, I would like to have the legal advisor once again advise you of your rights against self incrimination. Proceed, counselor.
CPT BEALE: Very well. Captain MacDonald, as you know, Colonel Rock read to you at the first session, the provisions of Article 31 and also advised you of your rights to counsel. Naturally, the counsel are present here now, so the portion that I care to read or to address myself is Article 31, primarily, and it does provide that no person can be compelled to incriminate himself, that is make a statement of any type or be required to answer any questions which may tend to incriminate him unless he so desires. And of course in your situation, no one can require you to testify in this proceeding, and your counsel has stated that you do intend to give a statement, under oath, and I want you to understand that no one can force you to do this. Do you understand?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: Now the Article 31 further provides that no person subject to the uniform code of military justice may be interrogated or request any statement from you without informing you of the nature of the accusation against you, and in that regard you are aware of the fact that you are suspected of having committed three violations of premeditated murder in violation of the uniform code of military justice, Article 118. Furthermore, it does provide that you are to be advised that you do not have to make any statement regarding these offenses or any particular offense that you are accused or suspected of. And furthermore that in the event that you do elect to make a statement, that is give a sworn statement, that this statement may be used in a court-martial against you, should a court-martial result from these proceedings. Do you understand that?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: Now, let me ask you this. Are you giving this statement, or the statement that you are about to give, is this being given of your own volition?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: No one has coerced you into making this statement?
WITNESS: No, sir.
CPT BEALE: No one has tried to unlawfully influence you into giving it?
WITNESS: No, sir.
CPT BEALE: Do you understand what I have just gone over with you?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: Very well, and understanding this, do you desire to waive your right not to make a statement, and in the alternative make a statement for this proceedings?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: Okay, very well. It does appear that the accused does understand his rights as provide by the uniform code of military justice, and therefore --
CPT SOMERS: Before we proceed, perhaps we'd better inquire about the absence of one of his attorneys as well.
CPT BEALE: Very well.
WITNESS: I have waived the presence of Lieutenant Malley.
CPT BEALE: You waived his presence?
CPT BEALE: The record will reflect that present now is Mr. Segal, Mr. Eisman and Captain Douthat.
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
CPT BEALE: Very well, your waiver of Lieutenant Malley's presence is accepted. Please proceed, counselor.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Please state your full name and rank?
A Captain Jeffrey Robert MacDonald.
Q And your organization?
A Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces Group, 1st Special Forces, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q Captain MacDonald, did you kill your wife and children?
A No, sir.
Q Did your wife kill your children?
A No, sir.
Q Where were you, Captain MacDonald, on the evening hours of February 16th, 1970?
A 544 Castle Drive.
Q What time had you arrived on that day?
A Initially, approximately 5 p.m. Then we went to feed the pony with the kids.
Q When you say we went to feed the pony, to whom are you referring? Was your wife with you at this time?
A No. Kim and Kristy.
Q What time did you return to your home on February 16th in the evening?
A Approximately 5:30 p.m.
Q What did you do thereafter?
A We had dinner. Shortly after I arrived home we had dinner together, the four of us.
Q When dinner was finished, what did you do?
A My wife got ready to go to classes on Fort Bragg at North Carolina -- University of North Carolina.
Q About what time did she leave the house?
A 6:15 p.m.
Q What did you do then?
A I put the dishes away.
Q What time did your children go to bed? Take your time.
A Kristen went to bed at seven o'clock. Kimberly went at nine o'clock.
COL ROCK: If any time you wish to take a recess, don't hesitate to say so.
MR. SEGAL: Let me proceed in a different fashion, if I may.
COL ROCK: Surely.
Q Where were you born, Captain MacDonald?
A Jamaica, New York, October 12th, 1943.
Q And your age?
Q Did you subsequently come to live in Patchogue, Long Island?
A Yes, I did.
Q When did you go to Patchogue, Long Island?
A Oh --
Q How old were you?
A Somewhere around four or five.
Q And how long thereafter was Long Island your home?
A Until I went to college, 1964.
Q What high school did you go to?
A Patchogue Senior High School.
Q In what activities did you participate in high school to include other than normal academic activities?
A Football, basketball, baseball, track, Key Club, Varsity Club, Biology Club. I was president of the class, president of the student counsel, one of the editors of the school newspaper, band, orchestra.
Q Did you lead any of the athletic organizations?
A Yes, sir, I was defensive captain on the football team, and co-captain of the basketball team.
Q Where did you stand in your class in high school when you graduated?
Q Approximately how large was your graduation class?
A About two hundred.
Q When you graduated, what college did you enter?
A Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey.
Q What were your financial arrangements for attending Princeton?
A I received a thousand-dollar scholarship, and I subsequently applied for a loan through Princeton, plus I worked.
Q How many years were you at Princeton?
A Three years.
Q Did you actually receive a degree from Princeton?
A No, I did not.
Q What were the circumstances of your leaving Princeton and going to medical school?
A My academic standing was fairly high at Princeton, and I was married for one year. I got married following my sophomore year at Princeton, between the sophomore and junior years, and Colette was pregnant when we were married, and so a child seven months later, and you know, the financial burdens had been hard on us to begin with, and we decided that the senior year at Princeton is mainly writing theses, and I'd already written a 96-page junior paper on a subject in biology, of no interest to the court, and my senior year would have been very repetitious. I would have been doing work in that field.
Q May I ask how did you gain admittance to medical school with only three years undergraduate study?
A Some schools will accept you if your academic standing is high enough.
Q And did you thereafter make application to Northwestern in that regard?
A Yes, I did.
Q That is a school which accepts qualified undergraduates who only complete three years of undergraduate school?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Now how did you earn money when you were at Princeton to support yourself and your wife and child?
A In the cafeteria.
Q What did you do in the cafeteria?
A Well, initially I was a cook, and then I became a supervisor; you know I ran a food crew in the cafeteria.
Q Did you do anything else besides the job in the cafeteria?
A Just off-summer work.
Q You heard Mr. Kassab's testimony. Is it correct in regard to your taking in lodgers and weekend roomers?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q Who was responsible for taking care of that portion of your house where it was occupied by the lodgers?
A My wife and myself.
Q How long were you at medical school?
A Four years, 1964 to 1968.
Q And where did you live when you were in medical school?
A We had three different apartments in Chicago, all within the city of Chicago. The medical school is downtown. It is not in Evanston, it is downtown.
Q When you completed your medical school did you have to make any election as to the type of internship you were going to serve?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe that, please?
A Originally, all internships used to be rotating, meaning you had three months in surgery, three months on internal medicine, three months on pediatrics, and three month on OB-GYN. Recently, many of the hospitals are offering what is called straight internship where you begin your specialization a little earlier. Since you can't possibly learn all those four subjects in one year, you just skim the top, and I chose a straight surgical internship.
Q When you completed your internship, had you determined whether you wanted to undergo a residency, and if you did, in what field?
A Yes, sir, residency in orthopedic surgery.
Q Any particular branch of orthopedic surgery?
A You probably mean any branch of surgery. Orthopedics is a branch of surgery.
Q I am referring to between treating child patients or adult patients?
A I wasn't sure yet. The possibility of being a pediatric orthopedic surgeon arose, which is why I ended up choosing the residency that I did. One of the two reasons that I chose it, because they had a strong pediatric residency program in orthopedic surgery.
Q Now when you were in medical school, Captain MacDonald, did you belong to any organizations, or were you active in any groups?
A Yes, sir, I was the sports chairman for the fraternity athletic program that we had, which as silly as it sounds in medical school, was quite active at Northwestern. Also, academic, Alpha Omega Alpha, which is the honorary medical society already referred to in these hearings.
Q And the qualifications for being admitted to Alpha Omega Alpha are what?
A They admit somewhere between 8 and 10 percent of the class each year, usually the top rank students with the qualification that they are screened by their advisors for their conduct, both medically and morally, by their preceptor. The preceptor is the attending physician who has charge of you when you are working in the hospital as a physician for your last two years of medical school.
Q Where did you stand in your class when you graduated medical school?
A I believe it was 12th.
Q Out of a class of how large?
A One hundred thirty-four.
Q When you completed your internship at Columbia Presbyterian, what were the alternatives that were open to you at that time?
A I had residencies offered to me. I could have gone into a residency or I had the service, the Army. Not just the Army, the other services also.
Q And what did you elect to do and why?
A I volunteered to come in the Army because -- for two reasons -- well, three reasons maybe. One was partially financial. It was a break in training; and second of all, after an internship, everyone seemed a little stale for the first year in residency. Residents don't work as hard as interns, so it would have been the first break with more time off but with some money coming in. But, I also wanted to go to Vietnam.
Q Why did you want to go to Vietnam?
A Well, I just assumed I'd have to serve my two years sometime and as long as it was there I might as well go and spend a useful two years, rather than to spend it in medical garrison and dispensary.
Q Now when did you enter the Army?
A Well, it reads 27 June 1969, but actually my first day was 1 July. They give you time to travel to your first base.
Q And when did you report to Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A 29 August 1969.
Q And at that time you were assigned to what unit?
A Headquarters and Headquarters Company of 3d Special Forces Groups.
Q And what was your capacity?
A Well, for the first four days I was a physician, and on the fifth day I was made Group Surgeon.
Q Did you have any other training as a physician while you were here at Fort Bragg?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe that, please?
A Yes, I acquired a North Carolina license in medicine. I originally had a license in medicine in New York State, and I went through the application procedure and had the interview in Raleigh, and acquired North Carolina license and moonlighted -- worked in emergency rooms in the area.
Q Was that permissible under the Army regulations to do so?
A Yes, sir. We had to have a letter from our commanding officer and it is permissible under Army regulations.
Q Did you in fact have permission from your commanding officer to perform civilian medical services?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you do in that regard -- this outside activity?
A I moonlighted at two hospitals, Cape Fear Valley Hospital in Fayetteville and Hamlet Hospital in Hamlet, North Carolina.
Q Did you do that at the same time or at different times?
A Well, I started much earlier at Cape Fear Valley and worked more there, but it was concurrent, yes. I was working both hospitals at the same time.
Q How about in February 1970? What were your outside medical activities?
A Cape Fear Valley Hospital and Hamlet Hospital.
Q On the week of February 9th, beginning February 9th, what outside civilian medical work did you do?
A I believe I had at least one night at Cape Fear Valley Hospital that week, and from -- you want the weekend also?
Q Yes, please.
A On Sunday, which would have been the 15th, I began a 24-hour shift at Hamlet Hospital, from 6 a.m. Sunday to 6 a.m. Monday.
Q Now can you describe for the investigating officer what you did on that particular Sunday?
A Yes, sir. Hamlet's a little country hospital in a small town about sixty miles from here. It is very quiet. It's not at all like emergency room work that I'm used to, and I saw a total of twenty-four patients over twenty-four hours, which is hardly working, you know, most of those were in the daytime and into the early evening hours.
Q When was the last patient you saw on Sunday, the 15th?
A I saw a patient at approximately 11:30 p.m.
Q And when was the last patient you'd seen prior to that one?
A Let me just explain it. It would be easier than being asked questions. I saw a patient at 11:30. I saw a patient at approximately 10 p.m. And then I received a call at about 12:30 -- I had already gone to bed -- about 12:30 I received a call, came downstairs and saw one more patient and I went back to bed.
Q You say you went to bed. Where did you go to sleep?
A We had a room with a bed and a bathroom.
Q You mean in the hospital?
A In the hospital.
Q How long did the visit with the patient at 12:30 take?
A Fifteen minutes.
Q And thereafter what did you do?
A On the way back to the room I checked a sick patient I had in the hospital and then I went to bed.
Q About what time was that that you went to sleep?
A 1 a.m. on the morning of 16 February.
Q That was early Monday morning?
Q What did you do the rest of that night?
A I slept. The nurse awakened me at 6 a.m.
Q And what did you do after you were awakened?
A I got dressed and checked this one patient and then left the hospital and drove back to Fort Bragg.
Q And when you got back to Fort Bragg what did you do and where did you go?
A I had breakfast with my family, showered and shaved and changed into my uniform. I went to work about -- back on the post it was 0800.
Q What were your activities with your unit on Monday the 16th?
A At this point in time I wasn't the Group Surgeon; I was -- on December 1, I officially had been transferred to the 6th Group. On 1 January actually I was at the 6th Group and I was second in command. I was the second senior medical officer of the group and I was Preventive Medicine Officer. I worked in the Group Surgeon's office and I spent the day in the office seeing some people that came in with referral problems and also doing administrative matters around the office.
Q Now what were your functions as a Group Surgeon and Preventive Medicine Officer at that time?
A At that time as Preventive Medicine Officer I was responsible for the health and sanitation of the troops. In garrison I didn't have that much work to do. We did make inspections of the mess halls and the latrines and the barracks and we filled certain health reports in, the monthly venereal disease report and command report went in every month, plus I personally ran a fat man's program, and I did most of Captain Hiestand's counseling. Captain Hiestand was my Group Surgeon -- H-i-e-s-t-a-n-d.
Q When you say counseling, what was that referring to?
A The Group Surgeon usually, unless we are short of doctors, really doesn't see any patients except problem patients or a problem arising at Womack Emergency Room are fairly frequent, and we have an upset soldier or his family, and the Group Surgeon handles those also. The drug abusers and the fat man's program, and any -- anyone wondering about his profile or thinking he wasn't getting good treatment over at the dispensary, would come up for referral for discussion of the problem.
Q And Captain Hiestand would refer those matters to you for handling?
Q Now you made some reference in your role as Preventive Medicine officer that required you have some contact with a drug abuse program. What actually were the assignments or the duties of the Preventive Medicine Officer in regard to drug abuse?
A There aren't any official assignments. I really had nothing officially to do with drug abuse, except I ended up seeing the referrals that came into the office for that reason.
Q How is it they came to be referred to you?
A Well, Captain Hiestand -- two things -- one, he really didn't like to counsel patients, to be perfectly frank, and second of all, he was involved in setting up a training program for the medics, and I was involved in it also, but he was heading it, and he was working a long number of hours on the training program for the medics and we just decided that I would see the referrals.
Q Now when you say referrals, were these referrals on the drug abuse program that you are talking about, or all referrals?
A All referrals.
Q He did not retain any of that activity for himself at that particular time?
A Oh, he did. If I wasn't in the office and a patient came in, he would see them and counsel them, but I was in the office a lot more than he was, because he was setting up this training program, and I ended up seeing, by far, the majority of these people.
Q Now, what was it that you did in regard to soldiers who were referred to you under the drug abuse program?
A Well, this is difficult for a doctor in the Army because you have two masters, so to speak. You really -- you don't have a physician/client relationship, physician/patient relationship that you are used to as a civilian, and you want to maintain that, but you also have a duty -- I mean the fact that I'm an Army doctor means that I am here really for the Army's benefit, and I certainly wouldn't think of sending someone under the influence of drugs into the field under a combat situation, or where you or he had to make a combat or command decision, so you have two masters, and you have to decide, when you talk to a person, how you are going to handle their problem.
Q How did you resolve the problem?
A Well, in most cases I tried to elicit the help of his commanding officer, the Chaplain, and first and foremost the Group -- the Center Psychiatrist, Major Ryder.
Q So then I gather that you are saying that if a man had a drug abuse problem you made this problem known to these persons you've just indicated?
A Sometimes, not always. If I didn't think the guy was a drug abuser, you know, one has to define some terms here, I guess, but --
Q I'd like you to do that, please.
A Well, if a kid came in to me and said that he took two of his wife's diet pills and he found out, he got excited and he happened to mention it to his First Sergeant, and the First Sergeant called him in and said, you know, you are a drug abuser, go see the doctor, and I talked to this man and I believed what he was saying. I didn't find that he -- any signs or symptoms of what I considered drug abuse, I wouldn't report it to his commanding officer. I'd talk to him and ask him if he was going to do it again, and usually, I'd make an attempt to find out was he doing the job as a soldier. Many of the commanding officers are terrific in this regard. I'd say, look, I'm just calling you in regard to a man. I'd just like to know how he is performing. Then if he was doing a good job, and I didn't think he was a drug abuser, I wouldn't report it any further.
Q What were the steps that you took in regard to a person whom you believed to be actively engaged in the abuse of drugs?
A Well, the initial step is to have him see Major Ryder.
Q You would make a referral in that regard?
Q And Major Ryder is?
A Major Ryder is -- was the Center Psychiatrist. And once it got to this stage it was then out of our hands, and he assumed control of the patient from that point on. If he was referred to Major Ryder, Major Ryder had control over the problem. For instance, if there was going to be any disciplinary action I never saw any forms in regards to that. It was all for Major Ryder.
Q And was that procedure arrived at as a result of consultations between Group Surgeons and Staff Surgeons and Major Ryder himself?
A That is correct.
Q About how many patients did you -- consultations did you have on the drug abuse program?
A Well, well, initial interviews? I had some follow-ups.
Q Well, would you define what the difference between initial interviews was and what the follow-ups are and I'll ask you for the figures?
A Well, on an initial interview, it was obviously just the first visit to myself or Captain Hiestand for consultation about this drug problem. Then if he returned again, that would be a -- if he returned for any reasons, you know, regarding this specific problem -- that would be a follow-up interview.
Q Let me ask you this, Captain MacDonald. How many patients did you see of all types in a given week, say in February 1970?
A Well, it varied tremendously, but I would say 60 to 100.
Q In a given week?
Q In February 1970 how many persons were referred to you through the drug abuse program?
A Well, I had weeks where I saw one or two and I had weeks where I saw eight, so I would therefore say five would be a fair figure. Well, I have to qualify this. I don't want to leave incorrect implications.
Q Very good.
A I didn't consider a lot of these people drug abusers in any sense of the word, really, and they never came back and I never sent them to Major Ryder, and my intelligence reports indicated that they were doing a good job in the Army, and I didn't consider them drug abusers. They came to me for that reason, but it was only a very few hard core drug abusers that I saw.
Q Did you have any other connection with drug abuse other than what you've described for us so far?
A Yes, I saw in my emergency room work in the Army. As the investigating officer might know, drug abuse is a serious offense, and very often the soldiers will go to a community hospital and pay the emergency room care, rather than come to a dispensary, the Group Surgeon or Womack Emergency room.
Q I see. I believe you said the emergency room work in the Army. Did you mean emergency work at civilian hospitals?
A Right. They will -- well, in this instance to be specific, they will come to Cape Fear Valley Hospital and receive treatment there.
Q How many patients would you say you would see in a week at Cape Fear Valley Hospital altogether at all times that you actually treated in the emergency room?
A Well, I would have to give you a nightly figure because I didn't work every week. Some weeks I'd work two nights, some weeks no nights, so a nightly figure would be between -- well, I think that most of these people were sicker than what you see in day-to-day care. Emergency room care is more traumatic -- I would see 40 to 60 people at Cape Fear and 12 to 15 in a 12-hour shift at Hamlet.
Q Did you see people in drug abuse situations on the nightly tours in the civilian hospitals?
A Yes; yes, I did.
Q Can you give us any minimal or maximal figures of the numbers you'd see on a given night's tour?
A Well; now again these are mainly real drug abusers. They would be coming in for a bad reaction or for instance, the more serious happening would be a respiratory arrest from an overdose of say, morphine, and these are the ones you see in the emergency room, rather than counseling in the office. So the figure isn't impressive but the patients were, and I would see one every two nights I worked at Hamlet and one to two at Cape Fear a night.
Q Let me ask you this. Have you ever, within the terms we've been using this afternoon, abused any drugs?
A Absolutely not.
Q Have you ever used LSD?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever used any other hallucinogenic drug?
A No, sir. Well, now -- let me be perfectly honest. You know what medical people consider and what the people who, general lay people, consider to be drug abuse, are really different. I have taken diet pills, for instance, amphetamines, and amphetamines are considered -- they are not with LSD in that hallucinogenic category, but they can -- they can on certain situations cause hallucinations.
Q Is it correct that diet pills are actually classified as dangerous drugs or legend drugs in various jurisdictions?
Q Again, I am addressing myself to a hallucinogenic such as LSD.
A No, I have not taken that.
Q Any drug which you understand to be commonly viewed by law enforcement authorities as a hallucinogenic drug as abuse and has no really standard medical purpose?
A No, sir, I've never taken such a drug.
Q Your wife, Colette, to your knowledge, has she ever taken any of the hallucinogenic drugs, as I have defined them here to you?
A No, sir.
Q In February of 1970 was she taking any medication?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of medication was she taking?
A She was taking anti-nausea pills for pregnancy which is called Bendectin, spelled, B-e-n-d-e-c-t-i-n, and she also took occasional -- well, they are really antihistamine tablets, Benadryl, spelled B-e-n-a-d-r-y-l, but she used these for sleep because they are safe in pregnancy.
Q And how frequently would she take either of those drugs?
A She took the Bendectin, the anti-nausea pill every time -- every night because if she didn't she would wake up nauseated during the night or be nauseated at breakfast, and the Benadryl was -- I couldn't really give you an exact figure. Maybe every other night she would take one before she went to bed, roughly figures along that line.
Q Now did your wife have occasion to take either of those medicines that you have just mentioned on February 16th of 1970?
A Well, first-hand knowledge I know she took a Bendectin tablet.
Q Which tablet is that?
A That's the anti-nausea pill.
A I don't know that she took a Benadryl but she might well have. I honestly don't know. I know now. I didn't know then.
Q You say you know now. You saw the subsequent reports by Womack Army Hospital?
A Right, and they indicate she had a Benadryl somewhere in her urine or blood.
Q What time did she return from her class at the University of North Carolina Extension?
A Somewhere between 9:30 and 9:45 p.m.
Q And what, if anything, did she do when she came home?
A She changed her clothes, put on her pajamas and came out and sat in the living room with me.
Q Do you recall what color pajamas they were?
A No, I do not.
Q All right, now what happened in the living room when she was there?
A We just -- when she came in, I guess it was -- Bob Hope Special was on from nine to ten, and she just caught the very tail end of it. I think she had changed -- I'm not really sure, but I think she had changed already, came out, and she probably had a liqueur, which she often did, and I often did, before going to bed, a sweet dessert-type of a drink.
Q Were you watching television yourself at that time when she came home?
A Right, and we just sat in the living room and talked and watched TV.
Q How long did your wife continue watching TV?
A Until about midnight.
Q And at that time, what did she do?
A She went to bed.
Q And what did you do between ten p.m. and midnight?
A I watched television with her.
Q The two of you were together in the living room?
Q Can you tell us how many of those liqueurs you might have had?
A If I had any, I had one, which is what I would do before bed sometime. I don't know if I had one that night or not.
Q But if you had any it would be a maximum of one?
A Well, I'll put a maximum of two, but since I don't remember it, I don't think I had any.
Q Do you recall, first of all, for certain, whether your wife had a liqueur, and if she did, how many would she drink?
A She would have one or two also, a maximum of two. I don't know if she had one. I have a feeling that she did have one. I seem to remember her setting there on the end of the couch and having a liqueur.
Q Now when your wife went to bed at midnight, what did you do yourself?
A I finished watching Johnny Carson.
Q About what time did that program go off?
A 1 a.m.
Q Did you see your wife between midnight and 1 a.m.?
A I don't think so, no.
Q Now what's the next thing you did after the Johnny Carson show?
A I washed the dinner dishes.
Q How long did that take, would you say?
A Ten or fifteen minutes.
Q And when you finished that chore, what was your next activity?
A I read a mystery. I finished a mystery that I had already started. I finished reading it perhaps 2 a.m.
Q Where were you reading it at this particular time?
A In the living room on the couch.
Q Now when you finished the book, what did you do?
A I got up to go to bed.
Q And let me ask you this -- had you seen any of your children before 2 a.m.?
A Yes, right. I brought a bottle into Kristy. I went into see her when she started crying. She started crying and I went in to see her, and when she cries at night we are still in a habit of giving her a bottle and she slept the rest of the night.
Q And do you recall about what time that was?
A No, not exactly. Somewhere between twelve and two, I would estimate.
Q Now you indicated at two o'clock you started to go to bed. Please describe what you did at that point and where you went.
A Well, I left the kitchen light on, the ceiling light in the kitchen, and also the bedroom light -- I'm sorry -- the bathroom light in the main hallway, the large bathroom light was on; the reason being that Kristy still occasionally would wake up and either come into our room or go looking for a bottle in the refrigerator.
Q Did you leave a bottle where she could get one in the refrigerator?
A I had just given her one but I left the light on anyway. So I left those two lights on and then went in to go to bed. But in the meanwhile, Kristy had come in to our bed, which she did occasionally, and I think she'd had her bottle with her, and the bed was wet on my side of the bed.
Q Now, I am not sure I am entirely clear. When you went into the master bedroom at about two o'clock, your wife was there?
Q And was Kristy already there in bed?
A Yes, she was.
Q Was she awake or asleep?
A She was asleep.
Q Where was she sleeping in reference to your wife?
A On the right side.
Q Was your wife sleeping on her side of the bed?
A Yes, lying in the bed, face up to the ceiling.
Q Now describe what you observed when you went to bed, or when you saw the child lying there?
A My wife was sleeping, Kristy was sleeping with a bottle under the covers, and I pulled the covers back and there was a big wet area on my side of the bed. So I picked her up and carried her to her own bed.
Q Did you take the bottle with you at that time?
Q Now her bed was which bedroom?
A Her bedroom was what's been referred to as to the rear bedroom.
Q Now what did you do when you got to the rear bedroom?
A I put her in bed.
Q Did you put any lights on at that time, do you know?
Q What about the bed covers or the blankets on that bed? What did you do in that regard?
A I put her in bed and covered her up. She had a habit of kicking off all her covers. She was very active -- both a child and a sleeper, and she often kicked off her covers, and I just probably covered her up to her chest and she had her bottle on her arm, and I went out to sleep on the couch.
Q Now you say you went out to sleep on the couch. Why did you go to sleep on the couch?
A Because my half of the bed was wet.
Q Had this kind of episode occurred before, about the child being in bed and the bedwetting?
Q How frequently did that occur?
A Oh, once a week. She wasn't wetting very much. More often she would come in bed, and not wet the bed, but it occurred once a week, once every two weeks.
Q Had you had this problem with your first child?
A You mean the child coming in bed with us?
Q How long did that last? How long did you go through that phase?
A Oh, probably a matter of weeks, and we'd put her back in bed, and she cried for about three hours one night, but she stayed in her bed and that ended the problem.
Q How long had you been going through this night-crawling-into-the-parents'-bed problem with the second?
A Oh, probably -- I'd say at least a month.
Q And how had you and your wife been handling the problem?
A We were a little more relaxed about this. We weren't so worried about breaking her bad habits that we had been with Kimmie, and occasionally one of us would get up and leave the bed or we'd put Kristy back and she'd still sleep. Occasionally we'd be playing musical beds. I would move first, and then Kristy would come back to bed and I'd go back to my bed. Something along that line.
Q In your experience as a physician, are you aware of this situation of a child going from its own bed to try and crawl into its parents' bed?
A Yes, sir, it's very common.
Q Do you characterize it as a common condition?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it related with some particular age range for a child?
A I would say it occurs after a child has learned how to walk and say, assuming they progress normally, up to the time of the age of six or seven. Usually -- not usually -- very frequently with the conjunction of another pregnancy.
Q What's the relationship of another pregnancy with this -- I'll call it night-walk of the child.
A Well, I'm certainly not a psychiatrist, or even a psychologist, but the implication that I get out of it, my studies, and my own experience in counseling people, is that the child is somewhat jealous of the mother. The mother, you know, has obviously become different, and usually they are talking about it, and the child knows something is different and it affects the child and she starts fighting for her spot in the family.
Q Did your second child know that your wife was expecting another child?
Q And how did she come to know it? What had been said to her about it?
A We talked at great length about it.
Q And what was the purpose of talking about it in the child's presence?
A Well, we had found with our first child that keeping her informed prevented any of these other problems that I'd heard, read and seen, that being when the baby comes home from the hospital, the earlier the child being aware of the new member of the family, and we found that when Kristy was born that Kimmie had been well prepared by Colette and myself, and it worked out fine.
Q And with all the preparation that you did with Kimmie, did that still prevent her from this night-walking when Kristy arrived?
A You are a little confused. Kimmie didn't night-walk when Kristy came home. She night-walked when Colette was pregnant. Yes, she did do that even though she knew Colette was pregnant with Kristy and we explained how and why. Now exactly how, I mean, explained as best we could.
Q Did you consider this situation with Kristy night-walking to be unusual or abnormal from the standpoint of your medical experience?
A No, sir.
Q Did it cause any particular stress or strain between you and your wife what Kristy was doing?
A Absolutely not.
Q There's not any doubt about it in your mind?
A No, sir.
Q Did your wife and you have any disagreement over the technique to be applied with the child in regard to this night-walking?
A We had slightly different feelings on the matter, yes.
Q Describe that.
A My wife said that she didn't mind getting up and putting her back in her own bed or getting her a bottle, and I suggested that we do the same thing we had done with Kimmie, it worked so well. Colette said it wasn't worth the effort and she said she would bring it up in her child psychology class and see what -- you know your own family would never believe your word as a physician -- she said she would bring it up with her professor at the university.
Q Did you object to that?
A Absolutely not, because I knew he was going to say what I said.
Q Did you have occasion to discuss with your wife, when she came home that night, the conversation she had in class?
A If we did, it was very brief.
Q What was the general nature of your conversation with your wife that evening when she came home from school?
A Really nothing significant. It was just -- we enjoyed the time together.
Q You say that you placed Kristy back in her bed and then what did you, yourself, do?
A I got a blanket. I don't remember where I got it from. It could have been from the closet or one of the other beds. As a matter of fact, it was probably from Kristy's bed. We had, usually, one of two folded blankets at the foot of her bed, and went out to the couch in the living room.
Q Do you recall how you left the bed covers in the master bedroom after you took Kristy out?
A Yes, I left the -- Colette was covered, but the urine spot was -- I pushed the covers down along Colette so the spot was open, just to dry -- for drying purposes.
Q All right, now what arrangements did you make for going to sleep in the living room?
A I just pulled the blanket up over me, turned off the light in the living room and went to sleep.
Q And as best you can estimate, what was that time?
A I would say very shortly after 2 a.m.
Q Now, did anything interrupt your sleep?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was there?
A My wife screaming.
Q Is that the first sound that you had heard between the time you went to bed and the time you heard your wife screaming?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did she say or make any sound that was distinguishable to you, that is a word or a name?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did your wife say?
A The first thing I heard was a scream. Just a -- sound to me a very loud high pitched scream. The next thing I heard was, "Help, Jeff."
Q And was that Colette's voice that you heard at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q There's no question in your mind about it?
A No, sir.
Q All right, what did you do when you reacted -- when you became aware that you were hearing that sound?
A Well, I started to sit up.
Q What was the lighting conditions then as you became awake in the living room where you were?
A The kitchen light was on -- let me back up just a moment. I don't really know if it was the ceiling light in the kitchen or the light next to the refrigerator. One of the lights in the kitchen was on. I'd left it on, and the bathroom in the hallway light was on, and the lighting conditions were, what I considered very poor, because I was asleep. I don't normally go to sleep with a lot of light on.
Q Now as you came awake, you say you started to sit up?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you hear and what did you see at that point?
A I heard screams first before I really saw anything.
Q Describe what you heard.
A I heard Colette scream first, and then say, "Help, help, Jeff. Why are they doing this to me?" and she repeated it.
Q She repeated it the second time?
A At least once. You know, like "Help, help Jeff, help, help, why are they doing this to me?"
Q Did you hear something else before you were able to begin to identify anything visually?
Q Tell us now what else, what else you heard.
A I heard Kimmie, she was also screaming, and she was screaming "Daddy, daddy" over and over.
Q Did you hear any other voice? Did you hear Kristy's voice at that time?
A No. I'm not sure. I just heard screaming. I don't know if I heard Kristy. I don't think so.
Q But you are sure it was Kimmie that was saying, "Daddy, daddy"?
Q Now what are the next things your senses perceived?
A I saw people at the foot of the couch.
Q And when you say people, would you be more specific about that, please?
A Originally I saw three people; my first impression was three people. Subsequently, I saw what I thought to be -- the total number was four, to my recollection.
Q All right now you say you saw three people that is your impression first. Where were all these three people, place them physically in reference to the foot of the couch?
A Two white males were right at the foot of the couch facing me, and a Negro male was to their right. In other words, all three were at the foot of the couch, but the Negro was, you know, more off to the side. He wasn't right directly in front of the foot of the couch, and that's what I initially saw as I -- most of this happened, you know, a lot of this happened simultaneously, I heard and saw. And they were right there when I heard the screaming.
Q Were you in an upright position when you made these observations?
A Yes, I was starting to sit up. Not upright, I was pushing up off the couch.
Q Now what's the very next thing that you can recall happening at that point?
A I -- several things simultaneously. I started to say something like, you know, what's going on, along that line, you know. I didn't ever say it. I was going to say what are doing here, or what the hell's going on, you know, and at the same time behind these three people I saw another person.
Q Now describe the other person you saw.
A It was a person, shorter than the other people. The person had long blonde hair, and had a light-colored, large floppy hat.
Q Was it a male person or female person?
A Well, it appeared to be a female.
Q Now what else did you see or what happened next?
A As this was happening, the Negro male to my left was moving towards me, sort of in a position which would have to bring him between the coffee table and the front edge of the couch, and he raised something over his head.
Q Could you identify what it was?
A It looked like a club. My initial impression was a baseball bat.
Q Now what happened, or what did he do, and what did you do?
A Well, there are other things that happened. Do you want me to go into those first?
Q Well, all right. You mean something happened before?
A Well, I heard the -- what I thought to be a girl say something.
Q That was before the Negro actually came up closer to you between the coffee table and the sofa or as?
A As, it is really simultaneous.
Q Right, I understand that. Tell us what you heard said at that time.
A She said, "Kill the pigs."
Q Did you hear her say anything else?
A "Acid is groovy. Kill the pigs." And during the next several seconds, I heard that at least twice, that sequence. I don't know if it was "Acid is groovy. Kill the pigs." Or "Kill the pigs, acid is groovy." But those words and one time sometime that I thought was "Acid and rain," just those three words.
Q Now did anyone, beside the Negro male, whom you've described as having a club-like object in his hand, have anything in their hands?
A I wasn't aware of it at that time. Oh, the female, yes. The female.
Q I meant all of the other three people, aside now from the Negro male. Did you observe anything in any of their hands?
A No, I didn't directly observe anything in her hands. This was a -- this is -- well, let me get it right. It has been taken out of context over and over many times. I saw what appeared to be a light shining up on the girl's face. I did not see specifically anything in her hands.
Q You don't know what the source of the light was?
A No. I had an impression, I don't know why, I had the impression perhaps because the light was wavering or something, but I saw a light coming up, and I had an impression that she was holding something in her hands, and you have to realize now this is really very fast and a lot of things were happening. I was hearing things.
Q What was the impression you had as to what that light source was?
A Either a well -- well, my first impression was that it was a candle. It could have been -- you know when it was pointed out to me -- it could have been a flashlight, because I never really saw a candle. That was just my impression.
Q Now what is the next thing that happened? Why don't we take just a few minutes? I do want to proceed with this as much as possible.
COL ROCK: Yes, I think it will be well for all to take about a five-minute break.
(The hearing recessed at 1001, 15 August 1970.)
(The hearing reopened at 1022, 15 August 1970.)
COL ROCK: The hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room. I remind you, Captain MacDonald, that you are still under oath. Proceed, counselor.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Captain MacDonald, I think at the recess I had asked you to describe what was the next thing that happened after you had perceived the three males in front and female behind you. I think you described that the right male had come up in between the sofa and the coffee table and had what you described as a club.
A Right, he raised it over his head and swung it at me.
Q Did the club actually strike any part of your body?
A Right, it -- the combination of, you know, my arm and left side of my forehead.
Q The first blow came in contact with both parts of the body?
A Right. I just raised my arm to fend off and I was hit hard enough to -- well, I literally saw stars, and was knocked back flat on the couch.
Q Let me be specific. What was the impact of the blow? You say you saw stars. Did you actually perceive that feeling?
A Right, I don't know if you've ever been hit in the head but you really do see stars, a lot of pain, and you, you feel like you are blacking out, you know, it's hard to describe unless you've been hit in the head.
Q All right, what did the force of that blow cause to happen to you?
A Well, physically it knocked me back on the couch, flat. In other words, I was pushing up in a sitting position, and I started to move back and raise my arm, and I was knocked by -- back down by the blow.
Q Then what happened after that blow?
A I pushed myself back up again.
Q And go on to describe those events in sequence as best you can narrate them.
A He raised the club again and started to swing and I partially blocked it with my arm again, and I grabbed his arm and slid down on the club and was holding the club.
Q Now was the second blow actually struck you?
A As I remember, not of any great severity, the second one, no.
Q And what part of the body did the club come in contact with on the second contact?
A No, it really didn't because I was pushing my hand on his arm as he was bringing it down. I just sort of grabbed his arm and stopped the blow, really. But this was, you know, it's a little confusing. He might have hit, like the top of my shoulder or something, but not to a significant degree, I wouldn't say.
Q Then what happened?
A I was holding on to the club and I started to struggle to get up.
Q Now where were you at this point? You mentioned sliding down toward the floor.
A No, no, I just -- my left leg now would be to the outside of the couch, and at this point I was trying to get my left leg off the couch and down on the floor for leverage to get up and fight, and I put my left leg and started to struggle up, holding on to the club, and at the same time, now, it's hard to describe -- it was a struggle, but these other two people right here were punching me, what I thought was the other two people.
Q Are these the two white males?
A The two white males that were standing at the foot of the couch. As I moved forward, I was only four feet, three feet from the end of the couch, sitting forward trying to push that way to get up, and they were --
Q Go ahead and describe the struggle that took place there.
A I thought I was being punched. I, you know, I could feel like a rain of blows on my chest, shoulders, neck, you know, forehead or whatnot. I was just getting punched by what seemed like a lot of, what I thought was fists. While I was holding onto the club I suddenly got a very sharp pain in my chest, my right chest.
Q Do you know the source of that pain?
A No, I do not. My instantaneous impression was, was that, I thought to myself, that he really threw a helluva punch, because it like took the breath out of me.
Q You were of the impression that it was a punch that had caused that pain at that time?
A Well, yeah, but let's not make it black and white. I was being punched and I felt the pain in my chest, and I just instantaneously thought that was a -- that was a good blow. I didn't stop and think, gee it could have been a stab or gunshot or a punch, or -- and so, when I felt this pain, I let go of the club and sort of, you know, just directed my attention more to the other two people, that --
Q The two white males?
A Right. Now basically you'd have to get the picture. I'd already been hit in the head and it wasn't any titanic struggle, much to my chagrin. I was just trying to push up and I was being punched. This wasn't a matter of, you know, me picking up chairs and hitting people over the head in defense of myself at all. I had been hit on the head and I was struggling up, and more or less I had been holding onto this club trying to pull myself up, and when I felt the sharp pain in the right side of my chest I just let go of this and struggled with the other two people.
COL ROCK: Excuse me. Where were the other two people? I don't think this -- that has been established. At the time you were being punched, where were they?
WITNESS: Sir, my feet were towards the end of the couch towards the hallway. My head was away from the hallway, and as I tried to sit up, you know, it would be like half the couch from the end of the couch, and it would be sort of leaning forward from that area. They were still at the end of the couch.
COL ROCK: Right, that's what I want.
Q Okay, Captain MacDonald, would you describe what else took place between you and this group, if anything?
A Right, so I started struggling with these people. Now sometime during this, my hands were sort of bound up in my pajama top, and I honestly don't know if it was ripped off or if it had been pulled over my head.
Q I'm not sure the process involved is clear when you say my hands were bound in the pajama top.
A I let go of the club and I was struggling with these two people and I realized that, you know, I couldn't really punch back and my hands were like bound up in my own pajama top. I couldn't get them out of the sleeves or something. It was just -- and I had the impression that it had been ripped from around me, or pulled over my head. I don't distinctly remember either.
Q You don't recall doing that to yourself though?
Q Pulling the pajama top over your head?
Q Then what was the next happening, or what did you next become aware of?
A Well, as I was struggling, I received another, what seemed like a fairly impressive blow on the side of my arm, and saying to myself, what do I do now, really, and I was struggling, trying to get my hands free, and my hands themselves were still free. The pajama top was around my wrists and between my wrists and just around the -- the part of my hands, really, and in the struggling I had a hold of one of these, I don't know which one, hands, and in the hand I saw a blade.
Q Could you describe how large it was, or the type of blade? Was it a very big blade?
A No, it didn't seem to be a very big blade. I just saw a -- really like a -- like a glint of metal or something, and I realized that I had just been -- that was probably a stab wound, rather than a punch, and that it was -- you know, I was in serious trouble.
Q Did you ever become aware of there being another weapon besides the club and this one blade that you saw?
A I'm not sure, I had a -- I have an impression of seeing like a glint of metal, something in the struggle while I was grabbing onto the hands and trying to push away. And they -- the shorter man in the middle still, I thought was punching me, and I was using this to fend it off. I couldn't get my hands free and I was just sort of pushing against, trying to get my hands free while I was trying to keep them at bay, and this other person had hit me in the shoulder with the club again.
Q Now how did this struggle resolve itself?
A Well, I don't know what finally happened. I was getting up, I was succeeding in pushing forward and I was at least towards the -- the end of the couch, and I realized that like I was falling towards the stairs, the two steps that lead into the living room right at the foot of the couch, and the last thing that I remember was that I had a glimpse of a knee.
A You say a knee?
Q Yes. This is the total -- this is the totality of my view of this -- I assume that this had been the female's knee, but I never saw her, but then I saw a bare knee as I was falling to the floor off the end of the couch towards the stairway, I had an impression of seeing bare skin, and the top of a boot.
Q Did you see anything else about the boot, other than the top?
A It just appeared to be -- my impression was that it was a light brown color, and it appeared to be -- you know I almost hate to say it because it sounds too black and white. I just have an impression that it was wet.
Q Was there any possibility that that material you saw could have been patent leather?
Q Do you have any idea how long this struggle lasted from the time that you first heard the screams until the time that you recall seeing the knee, the boot, and losing consciousness?
A Well, that's a rough -- my only experience would be in other fist fights, and the time seems like it's dragging and it hardly ever is. I would say fifteen or twenty seconds. You know that's maybe ten seconds, maybe thirty seconds. But certainly not very long.
Q Now did you actually lose consciousness at that time when you described seeing a knee and a boot?
A Well, apparently I did because I -- my next recollection was that I was alone on the steps at the end of the hallway. I was lying sort of face down on the hallway floor.
Q What did you do when you began to gather your consciousness at that point?
A Well, the first thing I remember was my hands were squelched up sort of across my abdomen, still with the pajama top wrapped around them, and I was lying there and the first thing I remember was that my teeth were chattering, literally knocking together, and I said to myself I was going into shock. So that -- I don't want to try to mislead the investigating officer. I'm not saying that I was going into shock or that I was in shock. This was my impression at that time, simply because chattering teeth is one of the classic symptoms of shock.
Q Now how did you respond to that, or did you just feel yourself with your teeth chattering? Did you breathe in or feel anything else about your body at that time?
A I realized my head hurt and my chest hurt, and I started getting up, and as I was getting up, I realized it was very quiet, and all of a sudden it hit me that the last thing I really remembered that I had heard screaming.
Q Had you heard any other screaming other than the initial sounds you described? You described Colette calling you and you described Kimberly calling you "daddy, daddy." Do you recall any other sounds coming from your children and your wife?
A No. I don't know when during the struggle, if in fact they did stop, they stopped. I just heard the initial noise and then I was involved and I don't remember really any other noise.
Q Now what did you do when you started to get your foothold?
A Well, my first impression was to see what Colette had been screaming about, and so I got up and walked towards the master bedroom.
Q Did you see anything unusual in the hall at that point?
A Not in the hallway, no. I wasn't paying any attention. I just was walking.
Q And describing what happened when you got to the master bedroom. Did you actually go in?
Q And what did you see?
A My wife.
Q Where was your wife?
A She was lying on the floor.
Q In what position?
A Her right shoulder was a little bit against the green easy chair and her feet were facing somewhat towards the entrance that I was coming in from the hallway, but halfway between the entrance and the rear exit out the utility room.
Q What did you do when you saw your wife there?
A I took a knife out of her chest.
Q Now can you indicate what portion of the chest the knife was?
A It was in the upper part of her chest towards the neck.
Q Was any of the blade exposed when you first saw it?
A I -- I don't remember seeing any part of the blade, no.
Q What did you do with the knife?
A I just threw it away.
Q What did you do next after you pulled the knife out of your wife's chest?
A As I was walking towards my wife in the bedroom -- I don't know whether or not -- I must have. You just walk in the door; the light switch is on the right side of the door. Probably as I walked in I -- put it on, and I was -- and as I was looking at her I was taking off the pajama top that was around my hands, and I dropped it.
Q Let me ask you this about the lights. Were you aware of any change in the lights in your house when you became conscious and went back towards the master bedroom from the way it had been when you had gone to sleep on the sofa?
A No, I'm not aware of any changes.
Q As far as you can recall, was there a light on in the kitchen at that time?
Q And was there a light on in the bathroom?
Q So then describe what you did after you went into the master bedroom and turned the light on. Go on from there, please.
A I was taking this pajama top off my hands and I threw it away or something, dropped it, and I took the knife out of her chest, and I probably checked her pulse.
Q When you say probably --
A Well, I checked the pulses several times. I don't know if it was at this time that I specifically felt for her pulse.
Q Would that be a wrist pulse or would it be a leg pulse?
A Initially, probably for the carotid pulse.
Q What's a carotid pulse?
A It's the pulse in the neck, the large artery that leads to the head.
Q Do you recall what observation you made as to your wife's pulse at the time you checked it?
A Yeah, I never -- I was aware of having checked the pulse. I mean I checked it many times, but I don't -- I never felt a pulse.
Q Now what did you do after you checked the pulse? Did you follow any other procedures in regard to her?
A Yeah, I gave her mouth-to-mouth artificial respiration.
Q Now how did you assume the position for mouth-to-mouth respiration?
A Well, she was a little bit propped up against this green chair.
Q Had you moved her from the position you found her, from the propped position?
A Well, that's where I found her.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And I just sort of laid her flat and open her mouth and cleared out her mouth.
Q What did you find in her mouth at that time?
A Really nothing. I mean that's the first thing you do to make sure the person has a -- then I breathed into the mouth.
Q Do you recall how long you did that process?
A No, sir, just briefly, seconds. The air came out of her chest.
Q The air was being spilled from the holes in the chest. Is that right?
Q Now did you take any other steps after you tried the mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
A I just tried to cover her up.
Q What do you mean, cover her up?
A I looked for something to cover her up, and I covered her with my pajama top.
Q Do you know where they were before you picked them up to cover your wife?
A No, I remember I just tried to cover her with something and I must have grabbed it, because I know I was putting it across her chest.
Q Why did you do that?
A Well, it doesn't make any sense in view of the injuries, but it is to treat shock.
Q Now what portion of your wife's body did you cover?
A Her chest.
Q What was the state of your wife's clothing at that time?
A Her bed clothing?
Q Her pajama top and her pajama bottom.
A Well, her whole chest was exposed and looked like part of her abdomen. You could see her breasts, and I covered across her chest.
Q Did you put anything else on her or cover her in any way?
A Not that I remember.
Q You have seen, I think, during the course of these proceedings, the photographs which show what appears to be a white towel or white bath mat covering a portion of your wife's body. Have you not seen those?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q Did you put that white towel or bath mat on your wife?
A No, sir, not that I remember.
Q Do you have any idea how it got there?
A No, sir.
Q Now what was the next thing you did in regard to the master bedroom?
A I don't think I did anything else there right then.
Q After you covered your wife, what did you do?
A I realized I didn't hear the kids either, so I went to check.
Q Now can you tell us to which bedroom you went first?
Q The front bedroom? Did you do anything in regard to the lights when you walked in that bedroom?
A I don't think so. I think that I just walked up to the side of the bed.
Q Now what did you do then?
A I checked -- looked at her first. She was, looked to be covered with blood.
Q What was the arrangement of the bed cover or any bed clothing at that point?
A I don't specifically remember. I remember I could see her chest and her neck and she had a lot of blood on her neck, and again, I don't know if I checked her pulses this time or later, but I checked them at sometime, and also tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration.
Q Did you do anything else other than perhaps check the pulse and give her respiration?
Q How long did you try the mouth-to-mouth with Kimberly?
Q And why did you stop?
A Because the air was coming out of her chest.
Q What did you do then after you observed the condition of the injuries -- the air coming out of her chest?
A I went to check Kristy.
Q And you walked across the hall at that point?
Q Did you do anything to the lights in Kristy's room?
A Not that I remember.
Q Now would you describe what you saw in Kristy's bedroom?
A I looked at her and she was very bloody, and I tried to give her -- I know, I remember for some reason on Kristy the first time around -- that I tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration the first time, and the same thing happened, that the air bubbles were coming out of her chest rather than inflating her chest. I know I checked her pulses the first time. You know, I remember distinctly checking her for some reason.
Q You say that on the first time in Kristy's room you checked her pulse?
Q Which pulse did you check?
A Well, the first time at least the carotid and the femorals.
Q The femoral is where?
A In the groin area.
Q Did that require you to move the bed clothing, move the sheets in any way?
A I'm not sure if they were down or if I had to move them down. I remember checking the femoral pulse on her and I don't remember if I moved the sheet down myself or if it was already down.
Q Now after you checked her pulse, what did you do, if anything in Kristy's room?
A Nothing I just walked out of the room.
Q Where did you go now?
A I stood in the hallway, between the two bedrooms and tried to figure out -- you know -- what to do.
Q And what did you decide and what did you act upon?
A Well, I first checked myself.
Q What did you find upon checking yourself, Captain MacDonald?
A My head hurt and I put my hand up to my head and I hadn't really noticed my hands, and I put my hand up and I took it down and my hand looked all bloody, and I assumed that, you know, that at least some of it was probably from my head, and I looked down to see -- my chest hurt, and my chest, whenever I'd take a breath it was bubbling.
Q And what did that indicate to you?
A Well, I had a pneumothorax, and I was standing right there and I looked in the, walked in the bathroom and looked in the bathroom mirror to see what my head looked like because I had this blood on my hand.
Q What happened when you went into the bathroom? Was the light on? As you recall leaving it?
Q Now what did you do there?
A Well, I looked in the mirror and I had a -- a contusion, and you know, a large bruise on my left forehead and it didn't appear too impressive, and I had just a bruise and there was some, looked like streaks of blood, mainly what looked like I had put there with my hand. The skin was a little abraded, but it does -- didn't look that exciting, and so I went back to the master bedroom.
Q Did you do anything else in the bathroom while you were there other than to check --
A Yeah, I rinsed off my hands.
Q Why did you do that?
A Your guess is as good as mine. I guess I -- I don't know -- I guess because I'm a surgeon at heart and -- and I really don't know. I just -- I did not -- I did it.
Q What do you mean you are a surgeon at heart?
A Well, I mean, I looked at my hands and they are all bloody, and I am standing there and I was confused and my head hurt and my chest hurt and -- I had just seen this unbelievable scene. I didn't know what to do.
Q Do you actually have a recollection of specifically washing your hands?
Q You do recall the water running and your hands in the sink?
Q Do you recall drying your hands?
A Not -- I remember I grabbed some tissues or something and was drying, you know, blotting them. I don't know if I dropped them or put them in the toilet or the waste paper basket or what. But I remember I tried to dry them.
Q What did you do then?
A I -- I went towards the master bedroom.
Q And did you enter the master bedroom this second time?
Q And describe what you did at this time.
A I checked her again, I checked the pulse.
Q Do you have a recollection now on a second trip in the master bedroom of actually checking her pulses?
Q Do you know which pulse you checked?
A At least her left wrist, and at least her left femoral, and probably her carotid again. The carotid is a good one in shock just because it is the strongest pulse you can feel. The femoral is the next best.
Q Did you find a pulse in your wife?
Q What did you do after you checked for the pulses?
A I pulled the pajama top down, looked to check her wounds. In other words, I was -- I didn't know what had happened, and I was, you know, trying to comprehend and I was hoping that what I had seen, I hadn't seen, so I just sort of checked her again and looked at her chest wounds, and then I got up and realized that I had -- you know, no one else except me, you know, and the alleged assailants were -- were aware of what happened, so I picked up the phone in the bedroom.
Q Was the phone in its normal position at that time?
A Yes, it was.
Q Where was it?
A It was on the end of Colette's bureau, on the, I guess the north wall. The bureau was along the north wall and it was on the -- at the east end of the bedroom towards the window. The phone is right on the end.
Q What did you do? Did you actually make a call at that time?
A I dialed O for the operator and she came on the phone, and she said, "Operator" or something like that and I said, "This is Captain MacDonald and -- and there's been stabbings." I really don't know my first words but it was something like that -- "There's been stabbings and we need police and MP's and doctors."
Q What did the operator say, if anything?
A She said, "What's your address?" and I said, "544 Castle Drive." And she said, "Is it on post or off post?" So I said -- I said, you know, I started shouting at her, "What the hell do you mean, is it on post or off post?" and she said, she repeated it, "Is it on post or off post?" and I said it was on post, and she said, "It's an MP matter." So I dropped the phone.
Q You dropped the phone? When you dropped the phone do you know what happened to the hand piece?
A No, I don't.
Q What did you do after you dropped the phone?
A I was standing right at Colette's feet, still trying to figure out what to try. I couldn't think of how to call the MP's. You know, I -- I -- she was obviously, now, obviously going to connect me, but she said, "It's an MP matter." And I just wasn't thinking very clearly and I just said, well, how do I get a hold of the MP's, and I was just standing there, and either when I was coming in the bedroom this time or when I was standing there I noticed that the back door was open.
Q That's the door through the utility room that leads to the rear?
Q Now what did you do when you made that observation, if anything?
A I just walked over to it and looked, just looked outside.
Q Do you recall what you saw?
A Nothing really, it was just -- really nothing.
Q Do you know why you went to the back door and looked out?
A I suppose to look for people or something. I didn't specifically say I am going to go to the back door and look for people or -- it was open -- I guess to see if anyone was there.
Q Did it occur to you to call out at that time?
A To call out?
A No, it didn't. I mean it just -- no.
Q Now what did you do after you looked out the back door and saw that no one was there?
A I went back and checked the kids, same circle basically. I went and checked Kimberly and it's more likely, just the way I remember it that I tried to give her artificial respiration at that time. You know, I don't know why it sticks in my mind that way. I just don't seem to remember giving it to her the first time I saw her, but I checked her -- checked her pulses this time, and I think this was the time I tried to give her mouth-to-mouth respiration. It could have been -- actually it could have even been two times, but I think I did it this time. If you made me make a choice, I'd say I gave it to her this time.
Q You can't specifically say whether it was the first time or the second time, can you?
Q All right, now what did you do after you checked her?
A Well, I -- I went in to see Kristy again.
Q Can you describe what you did there?
A I didn't do as much this time. Again, now, I don't think at this time I gave her artificial respiration. I think that I just looked at her again and -- strengthened what I was trying not to believe. It made me believe what I was trying not to believe, that I had seen her that way and I couldn't get a pulse.
Q Had you actually told yourself at that point that they were dead?
A No, I just -- I was trying to help them. I mean -- I knew instinctively from being a doctor that they were dead, but I didn't -- I didn't make that decision. I thought that -- we are going to try to help them as much as I can.
Q Did you leave Kristy's room then?
Q What did you do then?
A I went to the kitchen phone. I just came out of the room and I just paused there and was thinking that -- I really haven't you know, gotten a hold of anyone. The last thing I remember was the operator said it was an MP matter, and I assumed she had dropped it. So I went to the kitchen phone.
Q From Kristy's room?
Q Did you turn on any lights or touch the lights that you recall, in the kitchen when you went there?
A I don't think so. I -- I think -- there was a light on and I didn't have to touch any other light.
Q Now describe what happened when you went to the kitchen?
A Well, I picked up the phone and before I could dial I heard voices.
Q Do you recall what the voices were saying?
A No, I don't. I heard female voices. I heard what appeared to be male and female voices. No, I'm sorry. When I initially picked it up I heard female voices, and then I said, "Hello" and she said, "Is this Captain MacDonald?" and I said, "Yes, I've been stabbed and we need help. There are people dying."
Q You said, "There are people dying?"
A Words to that effect. I don't -- you know -- people are dying or people have been stabbed, and we need help at 544 Castle Drive.
Q Did the operator respond, or did any voice respond?
A She said, "I'll connect you with the MP's."
Q Did you stay on the phone?
A Right, and I was -- well, I remember it as being that I was yelling. You know, I was saying, "We need help, help at 544 Castle Drive." And I was becoming extremely agitated that I couldn't get through this what I considered to be a, you know, nincompoop -- and I can't spell that.
Q What did you hear ultimately? Did you get any response from anybody besides the operator?
A Yeah, a man came on and said, "Can I help you?" And he said, "This is a Sergeant -- " something, I don't remember the name. So I said again "This is -- this is Captain MacDonald at 544 Castle Drive and we need help." He said, "What happened?" and I said, "I've been stabbed and I think I'm dying and other people are dying. And he said -- he -- I could hear him holler to someone, "Make that ASAP to Womack. And he said, "They're coming" or something like that or "Help is on its way."
Q He said it to you, or you overheard him say it?
A Well, I think I really heard him saying, you know, get Womack ASAP or something like that. I don't know if he was speaking to me or I don't know if he was telling me they was coming ASAP, it sounded like, but the impression of the recollection I have is that he was saying to someone else "Get them there ASAP." ASAP meaning as soon as possible.
Q Now did you talk anymore on the phone at that point?
Q What did you do with the phone?
A I don't specifically remember. I think I just dropped it.
Q And did you remain in the kitchen?
A Well, I -- I -- I'm not really sure. I think that -- it sounds ridiculous -- I think that I washed my hands at the kitchen sink, either before or after this phone call, but I'm not sure I did that, and -- and I've been questioned extensively about it and I don't know. I just -- I have the feeling that I was rinsing off my hands for some reason, that's the last thing that I remember, from the kitchen.
Q What is the next thing you recall?
A I was struggling with an MP. He was breathing into my mouth.
Q Do you have any recollection of what transpired from the time you recall being in the kitchen and this next episode of someone breathing into your mouth?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have any idea how you got from the kitchen to the place where the MP was breathing into your mouth?
A No, sir.
Q Did you, in fact, at that time, know where you were when you found this person breathing into your mouth?
A Not immediately.
Q Did you become aware of where you were?
A Yes, sir.
Q And where were you at that time?
A I was in my bedroom next to Colette.
Q When you say you were next to Colette, what do you mean?
A I was lying on her left side on the floor.
Q How did you get there?
A I don't know.
Q Do you know how long you had been there?
A No, sir.
Q What is it you first became aware of?
A That someone was breathing into my mouth and I didn't know what -- what was happening. I started struggling with them. I thought -- this is really how I remember it, I was struggling with them, just trying to push them away. And then I saw a whole bunch of -- you know -- I looked up, and as I was pushing him away he was saying, "Take it easy, take it easy", and I saw shiny helmets, you know, with a white line, and I saw a whole circle of heads over me, and they were telling me to lie down, and was pushing me down.
Q What did you do when he pushed you back down?
A I looked over at my wife -- I mean that's realized where I was. As I was talking to them, I was trying to figure out where I was and what had happened, and as he pushed me back down I looked at Colette.
Q Now what happened at that point?
A I think I said something like "Jesus Christ, look at my wife."
Q Did anybody say anything to you then at that point?
A Well, there was a lot of -- there was a lot going on -- I mean there was a lot of, to my recollection, confusion and shouts, and orders and people were pushing me down and saying, "Everything is okay. She's okay" and "Don't touch that" and "Put that down" and "Let's get help" and "Where the hell is Womack" and you know, it was like you'd hear many voices shouting and yelling and people running back and forth, right past me, past my left shoulder, and it was just a very confusing scene.
Q Are you clear in your recollection that you heard some people shouting, "Don't touch that. Put that down." Or words to that effect?
Q Do you know what they were referring to?
A No, sir.
Q Go on and describe what happened at that point?
A Well, he kept trying to breathe in my mouth and I kept trying to push him away, and I told him I wanted to know, you know, see my kids, and check my wife's pulse.
Q Excuse me, you say check your wife's pulse. You mean you were asking him to do that?
Q Go ahead.
A I said, you know, check her, check the kids, and you know, we need help, we need doctors. Get us to Womack. You know, I'm not saying that these are the specific words. I'm saying this is roughly what I was saying, and I was lying right next to Colette and I could see her chest and -- I'm not sure -- I'm sure I was crying and -- he kept trying to breathe into my mouth and -- and the next real -- really the next thing is they were -- I was struggling to get off the stretcher in the hallway. I mean I have a -- you know -- really it's kind of -- I'm not trying to be difficult to the investigating officer but it's not clear at all, the exact sequence of things, and really the next clear thing, although I do remember -- I have a kind of a hazy recollection of people moving me and shifting me and putting me on a stretcher, was that I sort of fell off the stretcher and -- in the hallway.
Q Do you actually recall being lifted by someone from the bedroom floor onto the stretcher?
A Yeah, because somebody had to -- somehow I had gotten in the doorway. I was -- the doorway was on both sides of my shoulders, and the guy had to step over me to get behind me to help pick me up, and they picked me up and then I was on the stretcher and I was starting to get off the stretcher.
Q Why were you trying to get off?
A Well, I wanted to check my kids.
Q When you were in the master bedroom on the floor, and was made aware of this man breathing into your mouth, do you know if your body was in contact with your wife's body? Could you feel her body?
A Originally my head was against her -- her shoulder, kind of right here on the anterior part of her armpit.
Q Now what happened when you tried to get off the stretcher in the hallway?
A Well, they were trying to hold me on it, and I fell kind of into Kimberly's doorway, which is the front or south bedroom, and I fell against the hallway and the little stereo that she had in her room just inside the doorway, and I kind of fell against it and they were grabbing me and pulling me back on the stretcher.
Q What's the next thing you recall happening?
A Well, with any clarity, a nurse was saying to me in the hospital, "What's your social security number?"
Q Do you recall the trip from the -- your home to the hospital?
A Not with clarity. I remember saying to someone, "Jesus, I -- I need fluids, and I'm freezing." You know, my teeth were still chattering, and they were covering me with blankets in the vehicle that we were in, but it really -- well, the best way I can explain it, it just seems hazy like you are looking at it through a fog rather than being me sitting there and viewing you and describing it later on. It doesn't have that -- I don't have those clear remembrances.
Q Captain MacDonald, do you recall any conversation while you were on the floor of the master bedroom with the military policeman, telling him anything about what had happened to you and your family?
A They were asking me, and I -- I was telling them, that, you know, we had been attacked, and I remember I said we had been attacked and someone you know, you know, really you have to get to the scene. It wasn't one person sitting there with a -- with a pad saying and what happened next. Here there were people shouting and one kept trying to breathe into my mouth, and one guy kept saying, "Who did it? Who did it?" and someone else said, you know, "Can you recognize them?" and "How many were there?" and it was really a very jumbled thing, and I'd hear one thing, and I'd say -- "I think I saw four" -- and they'd say, "What did you see?" and I said, "Some colored guy hit me with a club." And "I saw a girl with a -- with a hat" and what I thought were boots, and she was -- I'm not exactly sure of how much I said at this time but I remember telling bits and pieces.
Q Go ahead.
A And you know, I said, "There's blood all over the house." And "How are my kids?" and it was all interspersed, and a whole bunch of people were shouting at me, "What did you see?" and "Can you recognize them? Did you know them?" and stuff like that.
Q Do you recall mentioning the candle at that time?
A I don't recall that, no. I don't think that I ever specifically stated that I saw a candle. I said I saw a girl with a hat and she looked like she was holding a candle in her hand, because there was a light on her face. You know, it was an impression.
Q Now what happened to you when you recall a nurse talking to you at Womack Army Hospital?
A Well, I started yelling and screaming at her.
Q Why were you yelling and screaming?
A I didn't see the relevance of my social security number. I mean I thought there was more important things.
Q Such as what?
A Well, you know, I have to admit, I -- I thought that I had at least the consideration, and the chest tube ought to be taken into account and, and I assumed that I was shock, at least in a state where I could go into shock, and I -- myself -- thought that I probably was in shock, and I thought that I should have an IV and -- you know, it's all concurrent with other things and I was yelling at people to check on my kids, and where were they, and why weren't they at the hospital, and they said they were at the hospital, and everyone was okay.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I think we should stop for the day.
COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed until 0830 tomorrow morning.
(The hearing recessed at 1225 hours, 15 August 1970.)