The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

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ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
August 14, 1970: Chief Warrant Officer 2 Roy and Mrs. Barbara Daw
 

CW2 Roy Cornelius Daw was called as a witness by the defense, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Would you state your full name and rank, please?
A My full name is Roy Cornelius Daw. I am Chief Warrant Officer 2.
Q And your unit?
A Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces.
Q And your station?
A Fort Bragg.
Q North Carolina?
A North Carolina.
Q Now Mr. Daw, when did you first become aware of these episodes that had taken place at your home?
A It was August 4, 1969. I got a letter from my wife. I was in Vietnam and she told me about two men that had -- that had taken the car and had threatened to kill her and the children, so on the 6th of August I came home.
Q And how were you able to return at that time? Did you get special leave?
A I just showed the letter to my battalion commander. He got me emergency leave.
Q Now what did you do after you returned here at Fayetteville in connections with these threats and other incidents involving these men?
A Well, I first attempted to find the two men, and I did find one of them, Foster.
Q Randy Foster?
A Randal Foster.
Q And did he admit that that was his name?
A Right.
Q Would you indicate to the investigating officer where you found him and what his connections was with the Army?
A He was a terminee from the Special Forces training program, and was presently, or was at that time in the hold-over company. I think it was Echo Company, Special Forces Training Group, awaiting reassignment.
Q And what happened when you got a hold of Foster? What was said between you about these various allegations that your wife made against him and McCormick?
A Well, I asked him about it and he denied anything to do with it. He blamed it all on the other guy, McCormick.
Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Daw; did he deny that anybody had ever threatened your wife and children?
A He said that McCormick had but he had not.
Q Did he deny that the car had been taken away from your wife and used by McCormick?
A He said that she had let him use it and that they just run it until the oil ran out of it and the engine blew up.
Q Did you make any other direct statements or accusations to him about his behaviors?
A I got him, I told him to either pay for the car or I was going to have him put in jail, so he signed a note saying that he would pay the $620.00 for the damages.
Q You say damages. What had happened to your car?
A Well, the car had been bent up some way, several dents in it. The engine was worthless.
Q Now what else happened between you and Foster besides getting him to sign the note? Did anything else happen at that time with Foster?
A I talked to him twice, the first time just to make sure he was the right man, and then the next time was in front of his CO, where he signed the noted and his CO witnessed it, and then he immediately left for Vietnam.
Q About what month was that?
A That was in either the latter part of August or September.
Q Late 1969?
A Right.
Q Now what else did you do in connection with these episodes involving these men and people they knew?
A Well, I found out where Tom was, McCormick.
Q I gather at that time you only knew the first name?
A Right, nobody knew who he was, but I traced him to Maryland or where Chris was living with her father, a retired Colonel, and he gave me the name of McCormick and his unit in Vietnam.
Q If I may restate that, do I gather, in an attempt to find this man known as Tom, you tried to locate his former girlfriend, Chris Jones?
A Right.
Q And in doing that you traced the whereabouts of her father?
A Right.
Q Who had retired, I imagine not long ago, as a Lieutenant Colonel from this post?
A Right.
Q And where did you locate her father?
A He was living in Bowie, Maryland.
Q B-o-w-i?
A B-o-w-i-e.
Q And did Lieutenant Colonel Jones give you information about the boyfriend of his daughter?
A He did. He had me hang on a second and he got an envelope and read it off the envelope, the return address.
Q And you got the name Thomas McCormick?
A Right.
Q And where was the man stationed in that letter?
A In Vietnam at the same place that Foster was stationed at.
Q And when did this happen? What month did you contact Colonel Jones and receive that information?
A I think it was February or March.
Q Of what year?
A 1970.
Q What, if anything, did you do with that information?
A Later I gave it to the CID.
Q Who did you give it to at the CID?
A A man named Ivory.
Q Now where -- were there any unusual phone calls that you received during this period of time when you returned and until March 1970?
A Before we moved on post we had several calls, maybe four or five or six.
Q What was the dates or months did that occur, over what period?
A September to October.
Q All right, now describe those phone calls, please.
A Well, the man would never give his name, and it was almost sure a colored man.
Q How did you determine it might have been a colored man?
A By his voice, and, and sometime he would ask for another man, several different names, you know. Once my wife answered and he just tried to keep talking to her. She kept trying to get him to talk to me, and he said he didn't want to, he just wanted to talk.
Q Now did it appear to be the same voice on all the calls that you heard?
A It sounded similar. I couldn't swear that it was the same.
Q Did you ascertain what that person was trying to say to your wife?
A No, he never did come out and say anything directly.
Q Did you report that information about these calls?
A I did.
Q When was that?
A The same day when I went to the CID I related all the facts to them at that time.

COL ROCK: Was that March of this year, are you saying?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

Q Mr. Daw, when was the first time that you took the information that you've been describing to us to the CID?
A On the 17th, sir of February.
Q And what did they do when you reported this?
A I don't know, they never told me.
Q Were you interviewed by anybody? Did you give a written statement at that time?
A I gave no statement. I talked to two of the inspectors, O'Bryant and King, and they took down a few notes, and that's the last I heard from them.
Q Did they indicate to you whether they would advise you what the outcome of their check was to be? How did you leave it with them, in other words?
A I just told them if they had any further questions to contact me.
Q Were you ever contacted again by the CID?
A About three days later -- three days -- about the 10 of this month, sir.
Q Tenth of which month?
A August.
Q You are saying that -- did you have any other contact with the CID about the information you reported after February 17th 1970, up until August 10th of 1970?
A None other except about two days later --
Q Excuse me, would that be February 19th?
A I called them back and gave him an address where one of these girls that Mary had lived with had lived and the telephone number.
Q You then gave them Mary's address at that time?
A I gave them the address that Mary had lived previously.
Q I see. Had they expressed interest in locating Mary to talk to her?
A No, they didn't say anything more about it.
Q Why is it you called and volunteered that information to them?
A When I talked to him the first he said if I found out anything else, give them a call.
Q What was the circumstances of your most recent contact with the CID on August 10th?
A Well, I had been flying and I came back in. The man that works in my office said I'd had a phone call from the CID. So I called them. He said that they'd like to talk to me in reference to an incident on February 17th. So I went the next day.
Q And what incident were you questioned about?
A About the MacDonald incident and why I thought our situation was related to that?
Q And what did you tell them in that regard?
A Well, I just started from the beginning and told them everything, what happened to the car, the narcotics, and the kid's name and everything.
Q What do you mean the kid's names?
A Well, since our children's names were the same as Captain MacDonald's.

MR. SEGAL: Cross-examine.

COL ROCK: Shall we start with Mrs. Daw?

COL ROCK: May I remind you, Mrs. Daw that you are under oath. Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Would you describe for us, please, the physical appearance of Tom McCormick?
A He was short, he was shorter than I.
Q I would ask that while you are responding to my questions that you face the recorder if you could. I know that's difficult, but if you will, it will be easier. He was shorter than you?
A Yes.
Q And what color hair did he have?
A He had light blonde hair, and he had a wide face, sort of a pug nose, and blue eyes.
Q And would you describe Foster for us, please?
A He was about my height, and he had kind of rusty brown, a kind of dark brown hair, dark blonde.
Q As I understand the incidents that you've related to us with Foster and McCormick, these took place in the summer of 1969. Is that correct?
A Yes, it did.

CPT SOMERS: I would like now to turn to Mr. Daw, please.

COL ROCK: Will you have any further questions of this witness, so far as you know?

CPT SOMERS: No, sir.

COL ROCK: Do you have any further questions?

MR. SEGAL: No, sir, not at this time, no.

COL ROCK: Mr. Daw, I'd like to again remind you that you are under oath. Proceed, counselor.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Do you know, Mr. Daw, when this man, McCormick went to Vietnam, what year?
A It was the latter part of 1969.
Q Now you've described a Negro calling your house. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q How often do you -- can you give us any estimate of the total number of phone calls involved?
A I'd say at least five.
Q Over a period of how long?
A Two months.
Q What makes you feel that this is the same man?
A Well, I can't be certain it was the same man but the voice sounded the same.
Q And in what months were these phone calls made?
A They were made in September and October.
Q Of 1969?
A Right.
Q And what did the man want when he called?
A He would ask for another man.
Q Was it always the same man?
A No, it was a different man.
Q Did he ask for McCormick or Foster at any time?
A Never.
Q How did you know that this was a Negro?
A By the sound of his voice.
Q Would you describe what characteristics are peculiar to a Negro voice, in your opinion?
A No, I can't.
Q But you can recognize it when you hear one?
A Most of them.
Q As I understand your testimony, both McCormick and Foster were a member of the Special Forces Training Group. Is that correct?
A Both of them were terminees from the Special Forces training program.
Q I see. And both of them subsequently went to Vietnam in 1969?
A I don't know exactly when McCormick went, but he went.
Q In '69.
A Sometime before February.
Q And you think it was late '69?
A Probably, yes, I think so.
Q How far from Fort Bragg is 3420 McChoen?
A About four miles
Q What part of town?
A It's on the northeastern part, off of 401 bypass.

CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL: I have two very brief matters, if I may.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Daw, can you indicate to us how far your Fort Bragg residence was from 544 Castle Drive?
A Well, it's sort of like a big circle. If you go one way it is one block. If you go the other way, it's two.
Q I gather that you are ETS at this station. What is your next duty station, sir?
A TDY Fort Rucker, en-route to Vietnam.
Q How long will you be at Fort Rucker?
A Six weeks.
Q And may we inquire as to where Mrs. Daw will be residing when she leaves the hospital?
A About fifty miles from here near her parents.
Q With her family in what community? Clinton?
A Clinton.

MR. SEGAL: Thank you very much.

CPT SOMERS: Nothing further.

COL ROCK: Mr. Daw, in your conversation with Colonel Jones in Bowie, Maryland, did the father indicate whether his daughter was currently residing with him?

WITNESS: I don't remember if he did or not, sir.

COL ROCK: Did he indicate why he happened to have an envelope with this soldier's address?

WITNESS: He told me that McCormick was still writing her, so I assume that she was living there.

COL ROCK: Mrs. Daw, I am a little bit confused about one point. When you went to the motel to talk to the SBI and the Chaplain, did you also see the SBI agent or was he present?

WITNESS: He was present.

COL ROCK: He was present?

WITNESS: Yes.

COL ROCK: I see, and so it is your impression that neither the Chaplain nor the agent believed your story at that time?

WITNESS: They said -- the SBI agent told me that they would like to get these people because I'm not the only one that had this situation since their husbands were in Vietnam, and he would appreciate all the help I could give him, and I assume -- he told me that he would have a man to watch my house -- so I assume that he was watching and helping me.

COL ROCK: Oh, I see. I misunderstood you earlier then.

WITNESS: I got a phone call from this associate of his; he said that he had dropped the case the minute I left that night.

COL ROCK: Oh, um-hum. How much later was it that you contacted the associate? When you found out the information you just gave.

WITNESS: I think it was that night.

COL ROCK: You called the motel, the appropriate phone number and talked to the associate?

WITNESS: Yes, and they arranged for me to come out there that night. They said they'd send someone after me since McCormick and Foster were gone.

COL ROCK: I am a little bit confused now. When you first went to the motel and the Chaplain and the SBI agent were there, that you talked to, did the SBI send someone out to pick you up to take you to the motel?

WITNESS: Yes, he did.

COL ROCK: I see, all right. And in your conversation with the Chaplain and the SBI agent at the motel, you were under the impression they were going to assist you?

WITNESS: I was under the impression that the SBI was but the Chaplain didn't believe me.

COL ROCK: I see, the Chaplain did not believe you. Now, when you said that the associate felt that the case would be dropped, was that when the associate was driving you back home?

WITNESS: No, that was later on. I had my children living with these friends, and the associate took me back to my house where I was getting me some clothes and I called this friend to come and get me so my children and I could live with them, and in the meantime I got a call from Foster and McCormick and they told me about my car being torn up and that somebody had reported them, and that they were going to kill whoever it was, when I knew that it was myself, and so I left, and I didn't go back.

COL ROCK: Now you left with whom? With the associate of the SBI?

WITNESS: No, my friends came and got me that were keeping my children. I asked them if we could stay with them until my husband came home, until I could write him.

COL ROCK: Well, now when did the associate tell you that he thought that the SBI dropped the case?

WITNESS: I stayed with them about a week, maybe two weeks, I'm not sure, but I had made up my mind, I was so scared that -- I had made up my mind that if anything was going to happen, the people were getting tired of me staying with them.

COL ROCK: Surely.

WITNESS: So I figured there's only one thing to do and that's to go home and face it. So I took my children and I got my German shepherd and I went home and I had the gun that Foster had left at my house, and so if anyone had come I was going to protect my family and my children and myself. And it was right before my husband had come home that the associate from the SBI called me up. He was drinking. He called me up and he was drinking and tried to get me -- he wanted to know if I needed protection for him to come over to my house, and I told him I was sorry, but I did not, and my mother was with me that night that he called, and he said he was coming over anyway and I told him not to. And I asked him where he was at and he said he was at a tavern and he had been drinking, and I could tell on the phone that he was drinking, and he told me -- I made him mad by not letting him come -- so then he told me that, he said, "Well, I've got news for you. They stopped the case before they ever started it." So that's when he told me that. He was drinking and he told me, because I noticed I hadn't heard or seen of the SBI after that night.

COL ROCK: Do you know the name of the SBI agent that you talked to down there at the motel that evening?

WITNESS: No, I don't. I might could recognize it. I remember I noted it on the front of my phone book, but I erased through it.

COL ROCK: Do you know what date that was?

WITNESS: Oh --

COL ROCK: By looking at the calendar, would that refresh your memory?

WITNESS: No, I -- it was about two weeks before my husband came home. It would be in July.

COL ROCK: I have no further questions, of either individual. Does counsel have any further questions?

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I -- I have one question I would like to put to Mr. Daw based on some information I have just acquired, please. I wonder, sir, if I could put this to Mr. Daw in the absence of Mrs. Daw.

MR. SEGAL: I have no objection.

COL ROCK: I see no reason why not. Mrs. Daw, may I advise you before you depart -- I request that you please not discuss your testimony that you've given today with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused. Thank you very much.

(Mrs. Daw departed the hearing room.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Mr. Daw, I have just one or two questions that are fairly personal. I understand that Mrs. Daw is undergoing treatment at the Womack Army Hospital. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q Was she undergoing psychiatric treatment there?
A Not at this time.
Q Has she been?
A Yes, before. If you will let me explain, I will be more than happy to.
Q Please.
A About -- about four years ago she started having a lot of stomach pains, and she keep going to the doctors two or three times a week. This happened in Virginia and happened in Texas and happened in Georgia, happened in Alabama, and back here at For Bragg. It kept happening so often they got where they didn't believe it because they couldn't find anything wrong with her. In February of this year, they discovered that she had a ruptured appendix, or that she had had a ruptured appendix for about four years, and she had been in the hospital, psychiatric hospital four or five times, which totaled to about three -- three months at one time and a period of two or three weeks on the other occasions. But after they found the ruptured appendix she had another psychiatric evaluation, and they said she should never have been put in the psychiatric hospitals. But when she was there she was given shock treatments and blocked her memory. For example, she doesn't remember us getting married, which was about five years ago. And it still affects her memory, the things that happened today to a degree.

CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions of either witness.

MR. SEGAL: May I say something in the presence of Mr. Daw, sir, and again it can be verified by all counsel, but I had occasion to speak at lunch on the phone with Doctor Gemma, Major at the Army Hospital, and he, in giving me the patient's general situation, he largely repeated what Warrant Officer Daw has mentioned now, with one additional factor, that should be before us, and I think he can be called himself if it becomes probative here, and that is he was of the opinion that the emotional evaluations and the subsequent need for treatment was largely caused by the failure to diagnose the original problem. That is, the patient began to believe that there was something wrong with her, and the doctors said there was nothing wrong with her and it was the opinion that the psychiatric problem stems from that. That's only my repeating it, but if it becomes germane, you might want to, sir, inquire in that area further with Major Gemma. Colonel Gemma, I beg your pardon.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I do not dispute anything defense counsel just said. I would be willing to stipulate to that.

MR. SEGAL: I have no further questions.

COL ROCK: All right, Mr. Daw, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no persons other than the counsel for the government or counsel for the accused. Do you understand that, sir?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Thank you very much.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS: Sir, at this time I ask that the testimony of the Daws in its entirety be stricken from the record. It's not only irrelevant but completely unrelated to this case, and adding tremendous administrative burden to the record in this case for no reason.

MR. SEGAL: All I can say, sir, I would disagree with the conclusion. I am not at all clear at this point in my own mind whether anyone can say it is connected or not connected with this case, but I would assume that after you've had a chance to examine the total record, I can't imagine that a few pages of transcript relating to the Daw testimony burdens the record much more than many other things we have heard which is purportedly much closer to the issue, and I think it's really a question for the investigating officer to ultimately decide whether this bears on the case, rather than just perfunctory dispose of that issue at this time without perhaps further evaluation.

COL ROCK: The prosecution's motion is denied. However, obviously I will take into account the period of time when the alleged incidents occurred. Are there any other matters to be brought before this hearing?

CPT SOMERS: Not by the government, sir.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing, sir.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be closed until 0830 hours in the morning.

(The hearing recessed at 1652 hours, 14 August 1970.)

 

 

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