The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
August 14, 1970: Mrs. Barbara Daw
 

(The hearing reopened at 1544 hours, 14 August 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room, with the exception of Lieutenant Malley -- well rather, Mr. Eisman, and Captain Thompson. Is the counsel for the accused ready with the next witness?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, at this time we'd ask leave to call out of order, before the cross-examination of Captain MacDonald, a civilian witness, Mrs. Barbara Daw, D-a-w.

COL ROCK: Permission granted. Would you please bring the witness?

MR. SEGAL: Now in connection with Mrs. Daw's testimony, sir, she is currently a patient at the Womack Army Hospital, preparing for surgery. She is somewhat apprehensive, and I would ask leave to have her husband, Warrant Officer Daw, be present.

COL ROCK: Permission granted.

(Mrs. Barbara Daw was called as a witness, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Mrs. Daw, would you state your full name and your home address for the record?
A Barbara Helen Daw, 119 LeBlanc, Fort Bragg.
Q And that is on Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the address?
A Yes, Corregidor Courts.
Q And is your husband a member of the United States Army?
A Yes.
Q What is his full name and rank, please?
A Robert Cornelius Daw, he's Chief Warrant Officer.
Q Now in 1969, where were you living, in the summer of 1969?
A We were living at McChoen Drive.
Q And what address is that?
A 3420 McChoen Drive, Fayetteville.
Q That is not on the Fort Bragg reservation?
A No.
Q Where was your husband stationed at that time?
A He was in Vietnam.
Q Now who resided with you at that address in Fayetteville?
A My brother lived with me until he finished school.
Q When did he finish? Was it in May or June of 1969?
A Yeah, it was somewhere in May or June. I've forgotten which.
Q And who else resided with you?
A After he left, Mary Hardin came to live with me.

COL ROCK: I'm sorry I didn't hear the name.

WITNESS: Mary Hardin.

COL ROCK: Do you know how to spell that name?

WITNESS: H-a-r-d-i-n.

Q And do you have any children, Mrs. Daw?
A I have two, a boy and a girl.
Q And did they live with you at that time?
A Yes, they did.
Q Now what was the name of your oldest child?
A His full name?
Q Well, what did you call him?
A I call my son Chris and his full name was Christopher Lavoy.
Q Did you have a second child?
A Kimberly Joyce.
Q And how did you refer to Kimberly?
A Kim.
Q Now how did Mary Hardin come to live with you? Did you know her before she came to your home?
A No, I didn't. Through a friend of mine that got in touch with a friend of hers, she knew this girl that was looking for a place to stay, and I met Mary Hardin. I thought she would be all right to stay with me. She seemed nice at the time.
Q How old was Mary Hardin at that time?
A As far as I know she was fifteen.
Q What led you to believe she was fifteen?
A Well, she didn't have any driver's license. She told me her age.
Q Was she married or single?
A She was married.
Q Did you know what her maiden name was?
A Her mother's name, she was going by, was Bible.
Q Bible?
A But she had been married several times and I don't know if Mary had the same maiden name or not.
Q Did Mary Hardin have any children?
A She had a little girl.
Q Did the little girl live with Mary Hardin?
A No, her in-laws had her in their home.
Q Now as a result of Mary Hardin moving in with you, did she have any friends or other persons who started to come to visit in and around your house?
A Yes, she did.
Q Now were these male friends or female friends?
A Both.
Q Were there some persons who came more frequently to visit Mary Hardin?
A You mean her friends?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Could you give us the name of those persons that you knew were the most frequent visitors to your home?
A You mean McCormick?
Q Yes, I think you told me before when we interviewed you about two men.
A Yes.
Q And are these two persons who came most frequently to visit Mary Hardin at your home?
A Yes.
Q Now would you state to the investigating officer the name of the first man?
A It was Randal Foster.
Q And do you know about how old Mr. Foster was?
A At least nineteen or twenty.
Q And was he a solider stationed here at Fort Bragg?
A Yes.
Q And what was the name of the second man who came to visit Mary Hardin?
A The name that, the only name that I ever knew, that they would tell me, was Tom.
Q Do you have some reason to believe you now know his full name, or you think you know his full name?
A Yes, I think his name is McCormick.
Q Thomas McCormick?
A Yes.
Q About how old was he?
A About the same age as Foster.
Q And he also soldiered in the same company with Randy Foster here at Fort Bragg?
A I don't know. I have been told.
Q You have been told the information that they were both in the same unit?
A Yes.
Q Now were there any young women who also came frequently to your home as a result of Mary Hardin being there?
A Well, this Foster and McCormick would bring their girlfriends.
Q All right, would you name those two, please?
A McCormick's girlfriend was Chris Jones, and Foster's girlfriend, she was kind of Spanish. She had a -- I can't remember her name. It was kind of a Mexican or Spanish name, at least.
Q What did she look like?
A She was kind of -- about my height. She had dark hair, dark skin.
Q How about her build? Heavy, slender?
A She was slender.
Q Did you learn anything more about who Chris Jones was, that is who her family was?
A Well, I found out that her father was a Colonel on post, and that she lived somewhere behind the hospital, back over in that area.
Q Now after these young men and young ladies started visiting Mary Hardin, something special happened. Did they tell you something special about Mary's condition?
A Yes, she was trying to get an abortion.
Q Did you know she was pregnant when she came to live with you?
A No, she was about four or five months, and I couldn't tell it at all.
Q She said to you that she was four or five months pregnant?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't see any visible signs?
A No, I didn't.
Q So the only knowledge you had of her allegedly being pregnant was what they told you. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did she ever do anything or seem to do anything that was connected with pregnancy?
A I think she got sick one time as I remember.
Q Now did anything happen as a result of these people telling you that Mary was pregnant?
A What do you mean?
Q Let me put it this way. Did Mary indicate that she was going to go through and have this child?
A Well, she had planned to have an abortion.
Q Let me clarify if I can. Did Mary or these two boys tell you that there was an abortion going to be performed on Mary?
A Yes, there was one going to be performed.
Q And who told you about the abortion? Which one?
A Well, Mary, first of all told me they were going to help her.
Q She said these two fellows was going to help her get the abortion? Did the two fellows mention about the abortion also?
A Well, later on I talked with them, and they said that she was too far along, and she was underage for them to help her.
Q Now as a result of the discussion about an abortion, were you asked to lend these people your automobile?
A Yes.
Q And what kind of a car was it?
A It was a '67 blue Volkswagen.
Q And on the first time that anybody asked you about this car, who was it that brought up the subject?
A It was Foster.
Q And he asked you to lend them your car?
A Yes, he was going to get some things to do this abortion with.
Q You say some things?
A Instruments.
Q Surgical instruments?
A They just said instruments.
Q And did you lend them the Volkswagen?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now how long did they keep the car on that first occasion?
A They had it overnight and brought it back the next day, and said that he couldn't get anything.
Q Did you give him permission to keep the car that long?
A No, I told him to bring my car back, and I started one time to report it, but then I was -- I thought I'd wait and that he'd bring it back. If he hadn't brought it back the next day I was going to.
Q Do you have any idea what month it was that this incident first took place where they borrowed the Volkswagen?'
A It may have been July, June, July.
Q When they brought the car back to you, did they turn the keys to the car over to you?
A No.
Q Did you ever, thereafter, get the keys to your car back from either Foster or McCormick or Mary Hardin?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you ever regain control of your car while those people were around?
A No, I didn't.
Q How long did this situation last, where they had your car and the keys, and you couldn't get use of it?
A About three weeks.
Q Now when they came back with the car the first time, did you ask them to give you back your keys?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did they say? Better indicate who said -- who was talking to you about this?
A Well, Foster said that first of all because I let him use the car, and everything, that if -- if I reported them or anything that he was going to accuse me of being an accessory to the fact of the abortion, and he was also telling a few lies.
Q He said that if your -- if you reported the taking of your car that he would involve you in this so-called abortion of Mary?
A Yes.
Q Did he say anything else that would happen if you attempted to report him to the authorities for keeping the car?
A Yes, he threatened my children's life and mine.
Q Did this happen the first time when he brought the car; he made the threat to your children?
A Yes.
Q Did he in any way indicate or do anything other than say, you know, show what he meant about threatening the children's at that time?
A Well, I -- I told him I wanted my car, and that I would take them where they wanted to go and not to come back. And they said they were sorry but I couldn't have it. So I told them -- I told my children to go get in the car, and that we'd leaving, and they went and got in the car, and one of them slammed the door and hurt my little girl's arm --
Q Who was that?
A Kimmie, Kim. So they backed out of the driveway and stopped and told me if I had any plans or ideas of saying anything, I'd better not, because I'd regret it, and I went in the house and I was going to call the police, and the phone was ringing. When I got in there it was a friend of mine that I grew up with and he had been trying to date Mary several times.
Q Before you go on with that, if I may back up. What name did they know your children by? What did Foster and McCormick call your --
A Chris and Kim.
Q Did they use these names?
A Yes, they did.
Q With both the children?
A Yes, they did.
Q Did both of them call them Chris and Kim?
A Yes, they did.
Q What about Mary Hardin? How did she refer to your children?
A Chris and Kim.
Q Now you said you went back to your phone call, and it was somebody, a friend of yours that was trying to get in contact with Mary?
A Yes.
Q And what was the name of that person?
A Mickey Walker.
Q Mickey Walker. Now, where did you know Mickey Walker from in the past?
A He and I grew up together. He lived right across the street from me.
Q Did you go to school together?
A No, I am much older than he is.
Q Where was this that you grew up?
A Clinton, North Carolina.
Q And did you mention to Mickey Walker about this incident with the car and the child being hurt?
A Yes, I did. I was crying and I told him about the men being there and that they had threatened my children's life and they had my car and left. And he told me that the SBI --
Q You say SBI. Do you know what those initials are?
A State Bureau of Investigation.
Q The North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation? All right, what about the SBI?
A He said they were staying there at the Betsy Ross Motel where he worked.
Q What did he do at the Betsy Ross Motel?
A I guess took care of the -- he said that if I wanted to he would tell the man in charge of the SBI and have them talk with me. They were trying to get people like this. And I told him yes. About that time Foster and McCormick pulled up in my car and I hung up.
Q Did Foster and McCormick then come in your house?
A Yes, they did. They saw the -- I have a long extension cord on my phone and they saw it swaying and they wanted to know who I had been talking to.
Q And what did you tell them in answer to that?
A I told them somebody had called and it was a wrong number.
Q Did they accept that explanation?
A I tried to act calm -- I think they did.
Q They didn't question you at least about it at that time?
A No.
Q Now what's the next step that happened in regard to your relationship with Foster and McCormick and Mary Hardin?
A Mary -- well, Foster and McCormick had their girlfriends over.
Q And that's Chris Jones and this Latin-American girl?
A Yeah, they had them over one night, and Mary had slipped out to go and taken my car.
Q Do you know why Mary was trying to do that?
A I couldn't tell you. She does things that -- that aren't explainable. But she slipped off with my car and when they got ready to take their friends home, and they saw the car was gone and Mary came back about ten minutes until eleven.
Q Were McCormick and Foster and the other girls still there?
A Yes.
Q And what happened when Mary came back?
A Well, McCormick took the girls home and Foster stayed there.
Q Why did Foster stay there?
A To make Mary pack her clothes to leave my house. He wanted, McCormick wanted his girlfriend, Chris Jones, to come and live with me, so she wouldn't have to go to Maryland with her father who was retiring from the Army.
Q Now what happened to Mary Hardin?
A He was going to take her to her mother's house or a friend's somewhere.
Q Now what happened during the period of time that Tom was staying in your house -- or Randy Foster staying -- excuse me. I mean when the one fellow drove the girls home, the second fellow stayed and I think I --
A Foster stayed.
Q Randy Foster. Now did anything unusual happen while you were waiting for McCormick to return with your car again?
A Yes, it did. He had been drinking and I heard McCormick say several times that he would get drunk off alcohol.

COL ROCK: I'm sorry -- he would what?

WITNESS: He would get drunk off hardly anything.

Q He being -- he referring to Randy Foster?
A Yes.
Q Did Foster do anything unusual besides drink at your house while he was waiting for McCormick to come back?
A Yes, he made Mary go in the bedroom and pack her clothes and my husband had a gun. It was up in the closet. He had found it and I didn't know he had it until he pulled it out that night.
Q While he was waiting for Mary to pack?
A Yes, he was talking to her and scaring her.
Q How did he scare her?
A Well, he was talking about -- he said that McCormick had killed and that no one ever found out, things like that, what he was -- what they were going to do to her if she ever said anything.
Q If she ever did what?
A If she ever said anything.
Q Did he indicate what he was talking about that Mary should not mention to other people?
A About them being in my house, and about marijuana and about the abortion or anything.
Q Now what was Mary's attitude? How did she respond?
A She was afraid. She was crying, scared, he -- I think he slapped her a couple of times.
Q Now did Mary leave that night?
A Yes.
Q When McCormick came back?
A Yes, he took her to a German girl's house who Mary used to live with.
Q He took Mary Hardin back to the house where she had lived before?
A Yes.
Q Did they leave anyone with you when they took Mary away?
A Foster stayed there.
Q In other words, they left one person with you all the time?
A Yes, I was very seldom by myself.
Q Did you continue to ask or demand that your car be returned to you? For the next couple of days I am talking about now.
A Yes, I did. Well, see that night, when Foster had the gun and he was kind of drinking, and he pulled the trigger, in other words, scaring Mary and it fired down into the floor.
Q The gun actually went off?
A Yes, it went off.
Q Did you see it go off?
A I sure did, and it was right near my children's room, and when they threatened Mary the way they did that night, I decide to do something the next day, whenever they left.
Q Well, what happened the next day?
A After they took Mary, I called to find out if she was okay, which she was. So they wanted, McCormick wanted Chris to come and stay with me, and I told him that I wanted them out, get out of my house.
Q All of them?
A Yes, that I didn't want to see them anymore, and they said they were sorry, but I was in it then.
Q What did they mean that you were in it?
A That I was in it. That if I told them to leave and everything that they would -- if I called the police or something -- they would say that I was an accessory, and that I was doing the same thing they were doing.
Q Did you ever find out what they were really doing?
A No, no, they talked. I thought they did a lot of talking, and but I never knew actually what they did or anything.
Q Did they subsequently have a conversation with you about bring drugs in the Fayetteville area?
A Yes, they did.
Q About how long after the time when Mary was taken out of your house did that conversation take place?
A Well Mary was taken out and the next day, they left and that's when I reported it. That night when they had my car and they called me on the telephone and said that somebody had reported them, that my car had broken down and it would be a couple of weeks before they would get in touch with me.
Q Let's back up a little bit. You say the day after Mary was out of your house, you reported that the car was gone?
A Yes.
Q To whom did you report this, Mrs. Daw?
A Mickey Walker called me on the phone, well, not me, he was calling for Mary, and I was crying at the time.
Q This is the second time Mickey had called?
A No, it is the first time he called that I talked with him, and he wanted to know what was wrong and I told him, and then he told me he wanted to talk to the SBI.
Q Did you talk to anybody who said to you, at least, that he was associated with the SBI?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you tell them about this car of yours being taken?
A Yes, I told them everything.
Q Was there anything else that you accused these people of besides taking the car?
A They threatened mine and my children's life.
Q Did you tell them anything else besides that? Did you mention drugs to them?
A Yes, I told them at night they were taking my car to go and pick up some marijuana. They had it in a locker in the bus station, and they were going to pick it up to take it to a warehouse in Fayetteville.
Q How did you come to have this information that that's what they were going to do with your car?
A Foster told me that. He asked me if I would like to go in with them, so I just went along and I told them yes.
Q What did he want you to do in connection with what they'd been doing?
A To -- they wanted a hiding place.
Q For whom?
A For themselves.
Q And you agreed to play along with this?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did they tell you? Where they were going -- or are they the ones who gave you the information about the plan to pick up drugs at the bus station?
A Yes, they did.
Q And you say you repeated this information to somebody?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you actually talk to somebody?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you talk to them by calling and asking for the SBI, or did you talk with Mickey Walker?
A They asked me if I would meet them.
Q Who asked?
A The man from the SBI asked me if I would come and see him that night. He would send someone to pick me up, and I told him yes. So I called the Chaplain from here on the Post and asked him -- I kind of explained things to him -- and asked him if he would meet me out there at the Betsy Ross Motel where I was going to talk to the SBI, and he said yes. So I told him what time and everything, and when I got there the Chaplain was there.
Q Did you know his name?
A I can't remember his name.
Q Can you describe him? Was he an older man?
A Yes.
Q All right, go ahead.
A I talked with them and I told them everything. Well, they didn't believe me.
Q What made you conclude that they didn't believe you?
A Well, the Chaplain wanted to know what book I had been reading, or what movie I had been watching.
Q Had you read any books or seen any movie about such a situation?
A No, I very seldom read.
Q After that visit, what did you do? Go back to your home?
A Yes, I did. I went back and I had these friends of mine to keep my children.
Q Before you go on to that, did they give you any more information about this package delivery, particularly such as who was going to deliver the package in Fayetteville?
A Well, the thing was, Foster had told me that McCormick had gone somewhere and gotten the drugs and sent it -- sent the drugs by bus to North Carolina, to Fayetteville, and he had taken a plane and come back.
Q McCormick had taken a plane?
A Yes, and sent the drugs by bus, and they were going to the bus station to pick it up.
Q Did anybody ever indicate to you whether they were working by themselves or with other people?
A McCormick made a phone call from my house, or he pretended to because I wouldn't -- couldn't tell if there was anyone on the other line or not.
Q And what did you hear in the course of that phone call?
A He talked like he was talking to his boss man or something, and wanting to know what to do with Mary Hardin.
Q Did he tell you what was supposedly said to him?
A Yes, he said that if she kept quiet and everything that nothing would happen.
Q Did he indicate whether anything would happen to her if she did not keep quiet?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you?
A He mentioned a couple of times about killing her. Nobody would miss her. Her mother didn't care about her, and nobody would miss her.
Q Did he indicate to you who would do this to Mary Hardin?
A Either himself or a friend that he could call the boss man in California and he would have someone come and do it.
Q Did he give any information about the person who might do such a thing as kill Mary Hardin?
A He said they would come from California on the plane, go kill her, get back on the plane and leave.
Q Now you say the next day you did what about the children?
A The next day after what?
Q Well, you were talking about this conversation, about asking you, when you went to the motel.
A Yeah, some friends of mine kept my children for me for almost two weeks, and I stayed with them too. I went and stayed with them. I didn't stay at my house.
Q And why did you do that?
A Because my children's life and my life had been threatened. McCormick and Foster, one of them grabbed me by the throat and told me if I ever said anything that they would kill me, and I told them that it didn't matter, so they pointed to my children and said they will kill them.
Q And when they pointed to the children, did they refer to them by their names?
A No, they were standing over in the corner. They were watching, and he pointed at them and said he would kill them.
Q And after you went away to your friends for two weeks, did you see McCormick and Foster again?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did they ever have occasion to mention to you something about a black male, black man?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the investigating officer what they said in that regard?
A They mentioned that there was a colored man supposed to come down to bring them some drugs, and they hadn't seen him. That's all.
Q Did they ever mention the colored man in any capacity or at any other time?
A No.
Q How many times you say your life and the life of Chris and Kim were threatened?
A At least five or six times, if not more.
Q And were those threats all from McCormick or was Foster involved too?
A Both of them.
Q Now at the end of that two week period, did your husband come here to Fayetteville?
A He did.
Q And was that because you had written him in Vietnam and explained the situation?
A Yes, it was.
Q Did you thereafter move from the address you had in Fayetteville?
A Not right away. It was a couple of months before we got our house on post and moved.
Q Did you have contact with any of these people or hear from these people during -- I'm talking about you, yourself -- when your husband came back?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you receive any unusual phone calls during that period of time?
A Yes, we did.
Q Would you describe to the investigating officer about those phone calls?
A The only time I remember was during the night, we had gone to bed, and I woke up. The phone was ringing and someone asked for Sergeant Nelson or something like that, and I told them I was sorry, but no one lived here by that name. So they said, "Do you know how I can get in touch with him?" And I said, "No, I don't, I'm sorry." I started to hang up. They said, "Well, we're having an alert," and they said that if you see him or something, would you let him know. I told him, "I'm sorry; I don't know anyone by that name."
Q Did it appear to you the person was trying to keep you on the phone?
A Yes, yes, trying to keep me on the phone. And I woke my husband up. It was about four o'clock.
Q Did you recognize the voice or could you indicate what type of person the voice belonged to?
A I told my husband I thought it was McCormick. It's who it sounded like.
Q Now about when did you move onto the post?
A About November.
Q 1969?
A Yes.
Q And what was the address again that you moved to?
A 119 LeBlanc.
Q And do you know where the MacDonald house is located at 544 Castle Drive?
A Not until after I heard the news.
Q Can you tell me now, now that you know where that house is, how far your place was on LeBlanc?
A Castle Drive is just a couple of blocks.
Q When did you learn about the MacDonald killings?
A The morning after. My husband and I had set the alarm, the radio to go off real loud. It went off that morning and they were telling the news and they were telling about the MacDonald children getting killed and his wife.
Q Did they mention the names of the MacDonald children?
A That upset me because all of the past flashed back to me about hippies and four people and I happened to -- I told my husband too, and he went there on post to the MP station.
Q Could you give us any information, please, as to the appearance of Mary Hardin?
A She had short reddish hair, kind of blondeish red.
Q Did she ever wear any kind of hair piece?
A She had a fall, it was long hair, and it was about the color of her hair.
Q When you say fall, is that a hair piece which really gives you the effect of long hair in the back?
A Yes.
Q It doesn't change the contour of the hair in the front?
A No.
Q About how tall was Mary Hardin?
A About five-four maybe, no, five-five, I guess.
Q And what was her build?
A She was about average.
Q How about Chris Jones? About how tall is she?
A She was sort of tall, she was slim.
Q Was Chris Jones taller that Mary Hardin?
A Yes.
Q Was she as tall as yourself?
A No, not quite.
Q You are how tall?
A I'm five-seven.
Q What color hair did Chris Jones have?
A It was about shoulder length, and it was long blonde, well, light blonde.
Q And what was her build?
A She was slim.
Q Now you related these various episodes to your husband, did you not? The things that happened to you while he was away.
A Yes, I did.

MR. SEGAL: That's all I have of this witness. I'll have some additional questions which I think will have some bearing on what we've heard so far.

CPT SOMERS: May I ask, do you intend to call Mr. Daw?

MR. SEGAL: Would you prefer that I call him first and go through the whole thing? Yes, I do. He's here and I can call him right now.

CPT SOMERS: It will probably be easier.

COL ROCK: I think so, whichever would be easier. Then you are asking that this witness be temporarily excused?

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, until her cross-examination. The government will be allowed to cross-examine her after I have finished with Mr. Daw.

 

 

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1987: MacDonald v. McGinniss  -  Mildred Kassab sues MacDonald  -  Court Records

 Parole Hearing  -  Kassab's Work  -  Bob Stevenson Answers Your Questions
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