The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.

The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

July 14, 1970: Craig Chamberlain (CID Chemist)


CPT SOMERS: Colonel, I do have Specialist Chamberlain here prepared to testify. I still have not received -- although as I say Captain Thompson is working on it -- the pictures in question. I expect them any moment. We can go ahead with Chamberlain for questions other than those related to the pictures until they arrive, or would you prefer to wait?

COL ROCK: Well, I'll rule on that in just a minute. I have two other questions regarding Miss Kalin. If I recall correctly, counsel, the other day when you stated that there would be a delay on Miss Kalin's appearance, you indicated that it was necessary to obtain certain evidence which I assumed at the time would be presented here to the hearing. Did you change your mind or has some other circumstance arisen?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, when we finally did get the evidence and Miss Kalin together we were not satisfied and decided not to use that evidence.

COL ROCK: All right. Secondly, do you have a sworn statement in this instance?

CPT SOMERS: I do not. To the best of my knowledge, no such statement was ever taken.

COL ROCK: I believe it would be most logical in absence of the pictures to delay recalling Specialist Chamberlain and bringing in your third expert witness. Is that gentlemen available?

CPT SOMERS: I sent the sedan for him approximately fifteen minutes ago. I presume he will be here in less than five minutes.

COL ROCK: All right, we will take a brief recess until his appearance.

(The hearing recessed at 0854 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0912 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK: The hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties present at the break are currently in the hearing room, with the addition of Captain Thompson for the government. Will the government proceed?

CPT SOMERS: At this time, sir, the government offers six photographs to be marked serially from the last one.

COL ROCK: Can you assist us in identifying these for the purpose of the record so that we can -- or are you able to do that at this time?

CPT BEALE: In other words, could you just tell us what particular room this rug is located in?

CPT SOMERS: This is the master bedroom.

COL ROCK: Number 12 is a portion of the rug in the master bedroom evidencing a rug with red-brown stains -- portion of rug in master bedroom showing spots of red and brown stains, G-13. G-14 --

CPT SOMERS: Exhibit 207B.

COL ROCK: Exhibit 207. G-15 is a photograph of master bedroom with view of five-drawer chest and portion of carpet. G-16, photograph of sheet from north bedroom with dark brown stains marked Exhibit D-60NB. G-17, photo of bath mat with red brown stains marked Exhibit D-214.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I have two more with respect to the pajama top. I intend to put the pajama top in evidence, but I might as well go ahead and give you the pictures of it now.

COL ROCK: Certainly. G-18, photo of front side of -- of Exhibit D-210, blue pajama top with dark brown stains. G-19, photo of rear side of blue pajama top with dark brown stains, Exhibit D-210. You may take these now.

CPT SOMERS: I'd like to say at this point for the record, sir, that although I anticipate that either the size or the location of these particular exhibits may be important to this hearing. I cannot say with any certainty that they will be the only exhibits that this is the case. In other words, although these I expect will be, I do not wish to be tied down to these if I subsequently see some other issue. This is as far as I see it right now.

COL ROCK: This will be recognized. Proceed.

CPT SOMERS: At this time we call Specialist Chamberlain to the stand.

(Specialist Craig Chamberlain reported, was reminded of his oath, and testified as follows.)

CPT SOMERS: Your honor, the government had tendered this witness to the defense.

COL ROCK: I beg your pardon? As we concluded he was the defense's.


COL ROCK: Is this what you were referring to?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q Specialist Chamberlain, did you have occasion to examine any stains from outside the MacdDonald household?
A Yes, sir.
Q And on what exhibit would that be found?
A May I refresh my memory from my notes?
Q Sure, go right ahead.
A There was some stains outside, close to the door, on the door, and on the porch which I examined with benzidine reagent. They were reddish-brown stains, but they proved not to be blood, so I did no further examination on those.
Q Did anybody indicate to you that there was stains leading from the back door around the walkway out to the street?
A Yes, sir.
Q And were these the same stains that you observed on the back porch?
A I don't believe so, sir. They were -- they appeared to be fecal matter of some sort.
Q What?
A They appeared to be fecal matter of some sort.
Q For the record would you explain what that is? Are you referring to human waste?
A Yes, sir. No, sir. Waste, I don't know if it was human or not.
Q Would that have been from a shoe, a bare foot or what?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Were you able to say positively that they were not human blood?
A Yes, sir, we collected -- I collected these exhibits, took them back to the laboratory and tested them with the precipitin test. They did not contain human blood.
Q Do you know how long they had been at that location?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Were they wet or dry?
A They were dry.
Q Dry?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you make any further examination of the spots or stains?
A At the scene I performed the benzidine test.
Q And what day was that?
A The 18th of February.
Q That would have been more than 24 hours after this incident. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q What was the weather like on February 17th?
A I really don't remember, sir. It wasn't raining. That's all I remember.
Q Do you know whether it had rained the night of February 16th or the morning of February 17th?
A No, sir, I wasn't present.
Q Approximately how many blood stains were found in the house? Do you have a round figure?
A I could give you a rough estimate. I believe 150 to 250, sir.
Q And you found blood from how many different types of people? How many different types of blood?
A We found four types under the International Blood Group Typing System.
Q Now in reference to this Exhibit D-207, could you take your notes out please?
A Yes, sir.
Q First, let me show you a photograph and ask you first of all, whether that's referred to as D-207. You have three D-207's. What would that reference be in your laboratory report?
A This would be D-207B.
Q D-207B?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now of these could you please refer to your records now as far as this exhibit is concerned? Would you turn to Exhibit D-207B in your records? I want to ask you some questions.
A I didn't conduct -- another laboratory technician examined this particular exhibit. Do you wish me to look at his records?
Q Yes, that's what I am asking you. In reference to this particular exhibit, what does the records say regarding this stain here? What size are they?

CPT SOMERS: Counsel, excuse me, for the record would you identify that?

MR. EISMAN: It's G-14.

A No mention is made of the blood stain size.
Q What size is this portion of rug?
A It's approximately 9 x 12 inches.
Q 9 x 12 inches?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how many blood stains are contained in this section of 9 x 12?
A I can't give you the exact number -- several.
Q Does it say on your report how many? Does it say on the record of whoever did this how many blood stains there are?
A No, sir.
Q Which is the largest blood stain that you can see on the rug? Please indicate by pointing to it.

CPT SOMERS: I object to that. The picture speaks for itself. The investigating officer can draw that conclusion as well as the witness.

COL ROCK: I'm not quite sure of the relevancy, what point you are driving at.

MR. EISMAN: I think at this point there will be some relevancy made that a blood stain of Type AB, that of Kimberly MacDonald, was found at the entrance way to the master bedroom. I think that's the purpose upon which the government is offering this particular photograph, and that's the purpose upon which they will attempt to make some type of evidence, whatever, out of it. Whatever that may be, I'm not certain, but at least that is why this is being offered into evidence, and at this point I'd like to find out the size, the approximate size of this blood stain so the investigating officer could in the future relate the importance of this blood stain to the case itself.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, the -- of course, the government is making evidence, however what this witness is being asked to do is describe what he sees in this picture. The picture is in evidence. It speaks for itself. He's not being asked as an expert, or from the notes of an expert. He's simply being asked as a person to look at this picture, and the investigating officer himself can do that.

MR. EISMAN: I was asking him to give an approximate size of the blood stain.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, he's already answered that he cannot.

COL ROCK: Objection sustained.

Q Now in the master bedroom were there any other types of AB blood found other than this particular photograph?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where would that be?
A On a sheet, I believe Exhibit D-211.
Q D-211. What are you referring to now, Specialist Chamberlain? Is this a diagram of the master bedroom showing where all the blood stains was found? Is that what this is?
A Yes, sir.
Q May I see that, please?

CPT SOMERS: The government objects. Those are the personal notes of the witness. They have been used to refresh his memory, and he's not testifying from them.

MR. EISMAN: Well, he just did testify from them on the question. I think I have an absolute right to have this exhibit marked for the record and introduced into evidence.

COL ROCK: I seem to recall that the witness asked if he could refer to his notes, which is exactly what he is doing. I assume that is one of his notes.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, he also said he's like to refresh his memory from his notes and that's what he's done.

CPT BEALE: Was his memory refreshed?

MR. EISMAN: Is your memory refreshed now that you've looked at your notes, Specialist Chamberlain?

A Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN: Then again, I would ask that if this has been used to refresh his recollection, that this be placed into evidence so that we can have this full document before the court.

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, if in fact his memory is refreshed by use of his notes, then there is no reason whatsoever to have that introduced into evidence. So therefore, your request to have it entered into evidence is refused, and you can ask the witness any question you might care to based on the fact that his memory is now refreshed having looked at it.

Q Now Specialist Chamberlain, would you please tell us where every other blood stain was found in the master bedroom without refreshing your recollection from these notes?
A Yes, sir, I can refresh my memory from other notes if you'd care for me to.
Q Would this particular document be an accurate representation of where the blood stains were found, at least an accurate approximation?
A It's an approximation, sir.
Q And could you say from your notes, or could you indicate on the diagram before the court where exactly each blood stain was found without viewing this particular --

CPT BEALE: Mr. Eisman, we are not interested in all blood stains. I thought we were particularly interested in this one that was contained in this photograph. This witness is not being called upon to remember where they all are.

MR. EISMAN: Well, can we request at this time that we be given a copy of this document so that we could use it in our defense, since this is being -- this is part of the laboratory notes which were used to prepare this case?

CPT SOMERS: I'd object to that. That document which the counsel has in his hand is the personal work of somebody at the laboratory.

COL ROCK: May I see that, please?

MR. EISMAN: I thought it would be helpful to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK: After looking this over, Captain Somers, I think this particular document would be extremely helpful for me personally in trying to come to some conclusions from apparently the mass of exhibits that were taken at the scene of the alleged crime. I would request that perhaps with the assistance of the current witness that this might be enlarged a bit so that it would photograph or reproduce in some fashion for my use and for the use of the counsel for the government, and counsel for the accused. I am returning the original back to Specialist Chamberlain. Now I also notice that this, Specialist Chamberlain, is a diagram of the east bedroom. Do you also have a similar type diagram of what's been described as the north and south bedroom?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And of the living room?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And of the kitchen?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And of the bathroom?

WITNESS: The hall bathroom, yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And of the hall?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: And of the dining room?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: I would like to have copies of each of these, Captain Somers, and a copy for the defense, because quite frankly I find with the mass of evidence that's available in my deliberations, once all evidence has been presented, that this will be of an inestimable value to me when trying to simplify the evidence that's being presented.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, if I may have five minutes before we do that. It is my understanding that we have charts which can be put on this easel which are much bigger than those notes which have been made by a draftsman, and which do the same job.

COL ROCK: Are they as detailed as these notes?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir. Sir, these are personal. They belong to the laboratory people and the government resists putting them into evidence in any way, shape or form.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, do you mean to say that this particular diagram with all its reference to the particular exhibits referred to in Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, are actually reproduced on a larger diagram in as much detail as we have here?

CPT SOMERS: That's what I want to check. It is my understanding that this is the case.

COL ROCK: All right, then, this hearing will recess for ten minutes while you make the appropriate determination.

(The hearing recessed at 0943 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 0959 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that all parties, including the witness, who were here at the beginning of the recess, are currently in the hearing room. Proceed, gentlemen.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, do you want the answer to the question?

COL ROCK: Affirmative.

CPT SOMERS: I have checked and my information is correct, and we will have available for this hearing the charts that I have been alluding to. They are charts by a draftsman. They are exploded views including all the walls and the ceiling. They locate each and every exhibit and they will be I think much superior to the notes which have been taken from this witness. Sir, can we resist the placing of the notes of the laboratory technicians in evidence; insofar as when we intend to present these exhibits, we intend to present them at the time we present other testimony, and we are not certain, as of right now, that the last two of them have been completed by the draftsman.

COL ROCK: From what source is the draftsman obtaining his information upon which to draw the diagrams?

CPT SOMERS: From the dual source of the lab reports and the picture, and certainly with the assistance of the criminal investigators who supervised the taking of the evidence.

COL ROCK: Your information is noted, however, I would still like to have burned copies of the diagrams draw by Specialist Chamberlain, as I feel are germane to this particular issue.

CPT SOMERS: When do you want this accomplished?

COL ROCK: I would think that -- well, certainly before Specialist Chamberlain departs to return to his home station.

MR. EISMAN: I think we could have Xerox copies of these, the only thing that wouldn't show would be the color of the red lettering and I think that that would be sufficient for --

COL ROCK: Yes, when I refer to burn copies, I don't know whether it would be Xerox or some other process.

MR. EISMAN: I don't think it is necessary to have color photographs taken.

COL ROCK: Please proceed, counselor.

MR. EISMAN: Thank you.

Q Specialist Chamberlain, you have testified that there were many, many blood stains in the MacDonald home on that night and they were blood stains of all of the MacDonald family as you know there. Is that correct?
A No, sir. I said there were four different blood types.
Q And do you have any information or did you make any investigation as to what the blood types of the MacDonald family were?
A I received a telephone call from one of the criminal investigators at Fort Bragg, and he told me that he obtained four blood types from the hospital.
Q Do you know whether they were obtained by word of mouth or from actual blood testing of the victims and Captain MacDonald?
A No.
Q And that was the basis upon which you conducted your tests, is the oral information by telephone?

CPT SOMERS: I object. This witness has just said that he did not identify these blood types as belonging to any given individual. Now the counsel is attempting to put words in his mouth.

MR. EISMAN: No, I am not. I just want to know whether the only information he obtained regarding the blood types of the family were by telephone. That's the mere --

COL ROCK: He has so stated.

CPT BEALE: Your objection is sustained.

Q Now when the exhibits which are indicated as no blood found -- does that mean you are convinced scientifically that there is absolutely no blood there, or could there possibly have been blood? But there was not enough of the exhibit, of the stains to determine whether this was human blood?
A There was no blood present.
Q And regardless of the size of the blood stain or the quantity of blood, it is always possible in every event to determine whether or not it is human blood. Is that what your testimony is now?
A No, sir.
Q Then if some of the blood stains were of insufficient quantity to conduct a scientific examination, would you then say that there was no blood present, or no blood found?
A No, sir.
Q What would you say? What would your report be if there was a red stain present but insufficient quantity to tell whether or not it was blood?

COL ROCK: Counselor, I think it would help if you would refer to a specific paragraph in here for clarity, as far as I am concerned.

Q All right, paragraph number 21, on page 13, I think, of the original laboratory report. Do you have that, Specialist Chamberlain?
A No, sir.

MR. EISMAN: He doesn't have a copy of it.

(Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9 were handed to the witness.)

WITNESS: Which paragraph was that, sir?

MR. EISMAN: Paragraph 21 page 13. Have you had an opportunity to read that?

A Yes, sir.
Q All right, now your conclusion is that it did not reveal the presence of any blood stains. Now is your testimony today that these exhibits were definitely not blood, or is it possible that they might have been blood but you aren't able to scientifically make that determination?
A There was no blood present, in this exhibit, sir.
Q So in each of these exhibits there was a sufficient quantity available, if it were blood, to make a determination on each of these exhibits?
A If there were any blood present, it would have been detected.
Q Can you tell us what these exhibits were?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were they?
A I'd like to refresh my memory from my notes.
Q Certainly.

CPT BEALE: What's the relevancy of this, because we can read and determine.

MR. EISMAN: I asked him what the substance was -- that was contained in each of these exhibits.


MR. EISMAN: He stated they were not blood; now, I want to refresh his recollection from his notes to determine what these exhibits were.

WITNESS: I'm sorry; I didn't understand your question. No.

Q You would not know what they are?
A I wouldn't know what they were.
Q Was any test made on these exhibits to determine what they were?
A No test, other than the test for blood.
Q Now in reference to paragraph 20, Specialist Chamberlain, the conclusion in that paragraph, on page 13, is that further examinations were precludes due to the paucity of the stain. Would you please tell us and the investigating officer what that means to you?
A Paucity means to me the lack of a sufficient quantity of the sample to do further investigations.
Q Well, how small or large does a blood stain have to be in order to be able to type the blood? Is there any scientific level at which you can or cannot make that test?
A There are approximate limits. If it's on -- if it is just a blood stain on a hard surface, a large drop might be sufficient. If it is a stain on a cloth, a large drop would be sufficient, most likely.
Q When you say a large drop, what do you mean by that?
A Approximately a quarter of a centimeter.
Q Getting back to paragraph 21, in your course of -- two-month course that you had with reference to blood work or identification, is it your knowledge of that course that no matter how small or how faint the stain might be, that human blood will always be able to be identified without any exception in 100% of cases?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, were you able to tell in each one of these exhibits whether or not scientifically there was sufficient quantity of the stains that your test would work? Do you understand the question?
A Yes, sir, I understand the question. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q And that would have been -- what would make your determination that they were of sufficient quantity? Would you -- a visual observation of them?
A Yes, sir, I believe so. A visual observation -- the test we use works. I am referring to the benzidine test.
Q Right, there's no problem on that, but it works on a 100% -- it is 100% effective in testing smears of blood. Is that your testimony today?
A I wouldn't say 100%. I would say practically 100%, sir.
Q Now when you type blood, how much of it do you have to destroy in your test?
A That depends on what the stain is upon.
Q Well, on a wall, say a smear on a wall. What would you have to destroy in a light smear on a wall?
A Well, it's really hard to say, sir. It depends upon the individual smear.
Q How do you arrive at these determinations that examinations of certain stains were indicated to be of an International Blood Type A or Type O? What is the determination made where it is either one or the other?
A That means that we performed the crust test and found the agglutinins present.
Q And that would indicate what?
A That would indicate the blood type.
Q Would that mean that the sample would have been destroyed in making that test?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now once the agglutinogens are found present, is that an absolute indication of what blood type that would be?
A We use the agglutinogens in conjunction with the agglutinins, both.
Q Now both the test which you mentioned only determine the agglutinogens?
A The crust test determines the agglutinins.
Q The agglutinins?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now in order to be positive as to what type it is, what other test do you have to perform?
A The absorption elution test for agglutinogens.
Q Now, without the absorption elution test can you say which of the two types this would be? Type AB, or Type B, or Type O?
A No, sir.
Q So that in each of the paragraphs, paragraph 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 -- in each of those paragraphs where it said that the blood type is indicated, that means that the second part of the testing which would determine scientifically the exact blood type, was not able to have been concluded. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir. Excuse me, sir, one or the another of the tests was not successfully completed.
Q So at that point you could not say to a scientific certainly that this was Blood Type Group A, or Group O, therefore you used the term indicated, indicated same to be of that type. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you ever run any of these tests in this case which indicated the presence of two types of blood? Specialist Chamberlain, do you understand the question?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Refer particularly to paragraph 9 on page 12, Specialist Chamberlain. Read that first before I ask you any more questions.
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you read that completely now?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, how do you determine that there are two blood types present, and preclude the presence of any other blood types?
A These were different areas, stains on the same exhibit.
Q So that, is your testimony -- if it's not, please correct me -- your testimony that if there were two types of blood in one stain, could you or could you not make the determination that both were present? Both types were present if they were both in the same stain?
A I believe we would have to give an indication on that. It depends on what the actual results are.
Q If two are mixed together in a stain, according to your knowledge of blood work and hematology, could you make the determination as to which two were present? To a scientific certainty.
A Ordinarily, no sir.
Q And if two blood types were mixed together, would you come up with a different blood type -- in other words if A and B were mixed together, would you come up with indication that this was AB type blood?
A I don't really understand your question.
Q Look at paragraph 15, Specialist Chamberlain.
A Okay, yes, sir.
Q Read the last line out loud so that the investigating officer can hear it.

COL ROCK: I have a copy of it.

Q In that particular example we have a statement that indicates the presence of International Blood -- two types, a mixture of blood, International Blood Group Types AB and A. Now how would that determination have been made?
A We would have found the Alpha or anti-A -- I'm sorry -- the beta -- excuse me, sir, let me think about that one minute. We would have found the A and B agglutinogens, and we would have found the beta or anti-B agglutinin.
Q All right, now that anti-B agglutinin, would that also be found in blood type O?
A Yes, sir.
Q So that -- that indication could also mean that this was blood type O, and not a mixture of AB and A. Is that correct?
A It's only correct if you assume the O blood has deteriorated. One would expect also to find the anti-A for O blood.
Q Do you know whether or not the anti-A was found in the blood types AB and A? Would that be found?
A Anti-A is not found in blood types AB or A.
Q Well, what indication would have been made to indicate that this was blood types AB and A as opposed to just B, AB or A?
A A blood would only demonstrate the A agglutinogens, whereas AB would demonstrate both the A and B agglutinogens, but would not demonstrate the anti-B.

COL ROCK: Let me interject a question, perhaps to clarify it in my mind, counselor. Exhibit D-121, from Government Exhibit 7, is the north pillow and cover bearing red brown stains from the bed in the south bedroom. Now, Specialist Chamberlain, as I read paragraph 15, it talks here in several sentences. The second one specifically -- further examinations of other human blood -- and then in the last sentence -- further examinations of other human blood. It is my understanding that this means that there was at least three different blood samples that you tested on this pillow, or that someone at the lab tested on this pillow. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.

COL ROCK: Okay, fine. Please proceed, counselor.

Q But that the final indication that AB and A were found is indicated because there is a mixture and not specific stains. Wouldn't that be the meaning of this -- reading of this paragraph -- when it says there was a presence of a mixture of the International Blood Group Types AB and A, and indicated that they were all found in the same stain, as opposed to separate stains?
A You mean the AB and the A?
Q Yes, sir, the same stain?
A Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN: Would the reporter read back the last question and answer?

(Reporter complied.)

Q Have you ever run a test of blood which first indicated the blood to be one type, and run another test of a stain from the same sample and indicated that it could have been of another type?
A Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN: I have no further questions.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q First, it might help a little bit, Specialist Chamberlain, if you would explain to us how this anti-A, anti factors in this blood is used and what it means in counter-balance to the other tests.
A Okay. The anti-A and anti-B factors I've been talking about, which are agglutinins, and the agglutinogens A and B and O, are complimentary. That is that if you have O type blood, then you also have anti-A and anti-B. If you have A type blood, then you have anti-B.

COL ROCK: It is really a process of elimination then to some degree?

WITNESS: I don't understand that, sir.

COL ROCK: Well, if you've got one type, then you don't have some of the other types of anti --

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's a possibility.

COL ROCK: Let me ask at this juncture, how many types of blood are there in the International Group?

WITNESS: Just four basic types.

COL ROCK: Four basic types? Well, now it was said earlier -- I don't believe you were present at the time, I'm not sure -- that one individual had AB plus; another had O RH negative; another one A RH positive; and another individual, B type. Now are those the four basic types? Are there a variance of the four basic types?

WITNESS: The AB, A, B, and O are the four basic types.

COL ROCK: The AB, A, B, and the O. Now, when you mention RH negative and RH positive you are then adding another factor that would seem to me might appear maybe in the B type -- in other words, can you have a B plus and a B RH negative, and a B RH positive?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, I believe so.

COL ROCK: Then actually, there is a multiple here. There could be an infinite variety of types of blood. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: In other words, you mentioned four basic types. How many, all total, sub-types would there be? 16, 50, 2000?

WITNESS: Sir, I don't believe anybody knows. There are many types.

COL ROCK: Does your normal testing indicate RH negative, RH positive, plus or minus factors in each of the basic groups?

WITNESS: No, sir, it does not.

COL ROCK: So it would be possibly, let us say, that you could determine that there was blood type O, and you wouldn't know whether it was an RH negative or an RH positive. You would simply identify it as blood of type O, as you have, apparently, in this document?

WITNESS: That is correct.

COL ROCK: Why can't you indicate in your test whether it is RH negative, RH positive or plus, for example?

WITNESS: The RH factor tend to -- they do decompose on dried stains and research at this time has found no satisfactory means for detecting this.

COL ROCK: Please continue.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Now in terms of the explanation you have just given of the anti-A and the way they are balanced against the other factors, when you have a mixture of AB and A indicated, does -- first of all, does AB blood have any anti factors?
A No, sir.
Q It does not. And A has what kind of anti factor?
A Anti-B.
Q And you would find then what sort of indication if you had a mixture of AB and A?
A You mean what factors would be found?
Q Yes.
A You would find anti-B and the A and B.
Q Now would you normally find anti-B in B blood?
A No, sir.
Q Now you've been asked about whether you've ever run a test which indicated one type of blood and subsequently ran a test on the same stain and had an indication of a different type of blood. If this happens, what do you normally do?
A I don't quite understand the question.
Q Well, if in testing a specific stain, you test it and you get an indication that it is a given blood type, and then you run another test on the same stain, and you get a different indication. I believe you said this had happened to you before?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is your normal procedure then when you do this? Do you run another test, or what do you do?
A We run as many tests as possible to determine this. However, if there is no sample left, we can't establish what blood type it is. We may just give an indication.
Q I show you now Exhibit G-16, which is a picture -- of a white object with some colored stains on it. Would you look at that picture please? Now, did you work on that particular exhibit?

(G-16 was shown to the IO and counsel for the accused.)

A Yes, sir.
Q Which exhibit is that?
A That is D-60NB.
Q Can you tell us what indications you received as to blood types on those two large stains?
A Yes, sir. In both stains we found type A blood and there was an indication of A blood and also an indication of O blood.
Q Your indication was most of what type?
A Most of the indications were A.

CPT SOMERS: I hand this picture to the investigating officer.

Q I show you Government Exhibit G-17 and ask you to look at it. Can you tell us; is that one of the exhibits in this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which one?
A It's Exhibit D-214.
Q Can you tell us whether AB blood was found on that exhibit?
A Yes, sir, AB blood was found on this exhibit.
Q Can you possibly point out the areas of the AB blood?
A Yes, sir, I believe I can.

MR. EISMAN: I'd like to know if the witness has a diagram of the exhibit, as to where each stain was found.

CPT SOMERS: The witness has a picture of the exhibit.

MR. EISMAN: Does it indicate where each stain was found, the size of the stain, Specialist Chamberlain?

WITNESS: It indicates where some of the satins were found, sir.

MR. EISMAN: Can we have that also --

CPT SOMERS: He's about to point it out.

MR. EISMAN: And furnish the investigating officer so that it will be part of the record.

CPT SOMERS: He's about to point out on this picture what areas are which. The picture he has does not say that. It has lettered areas. He's about to put together the letters which tells us which area it is with the blood types, so it will be pointed out on Government Exhibit 17, which areas are which.

MR. EISMAN: I'd like to also have the original available to the --

CPT SOMERS: The government resists that request.

MR. EISMAN: So that the investigating officer could see how the original looks as opposed to any transformation which might be made.

CPT BEALE: Your request at this time, I think, will be denied. Let's let the witness try to attempt to answer his question, and then if it's not clear to everyone, you can renew your request at that time.

WITNESS: This area right here.

COL ROCK: We can't see where the --

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers. Bring him up here with counsel so that Colonel Rock --

CPT SOMERS: All right, I'll do that, and I'll have him circle the areas as they are circled on his picture and letter them.

COL ROCK: All right, go ahead.

(Witness and counsel for both sides approached the IO's desk.)

CPT SOMERS: Now, Specialist Chamberlain, I give you a marking pencil and ask you to mark these areas as you refer to them.

COL ROCK: Well, now shouldn't he mark them, or what system is he going to use in marking these that will be coherent as far as -- we'll take a recess in place.

(The hearing recessed at 1037 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1050 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK: The hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that the persons in attendance at the time of the recess are currently in the hearing room. I believe we are in the re-direct process. Would you proceed, counselor?

Q Specialist Chamberlain, I see that you have drawn two oblongs on this picture and they seem to be labeled AB. Would you tell us what that means?
A That means that we -- I determined that there was A blood, AB blood within these areas.
Q And I see a signature and the date on this picture. Is that your signature and today's date?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you also find A blood on this towel?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you mark it from this picture?
A No, sir, I cannot.
Q Why is that?
A It is on the other side of the towel.

CPT SOMERS: Very good. I hand this picture to the investigating officer. At this time, sir, I would like to have marked as exhibits the diagrams from the notes of the laboratory technician of the various rooms which have been referred to before.

COL ROCK: G-20 will be diagram of east bedroom prepared by Specialist Chamberlain. Exhibit G-21 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of north bedroom. Government Exhibit 22 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the south bedroom. Government Exhibit 23 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the hall, hall bathroom area. Government Exhibit 24 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the living room area. Government Exhibit 25 is Specialist Chamberlain's diagram of the kitchen and dining room. These diagrams will be reproduced in sufficient copies to provide to counsel for the government, counsel for the accused, and the investigating officer.

Q Specialist Chamberlain, can you tell us how these diagrams were made?
A Yes, sir. I reconstructed the floor plan of the house, of the house by memory, and then from the description and the notes I took at the scene, and also the results of the lab report, I drew both the floor plan and where each blood type was that was found.
Q These diagrams were made after the fact of the taking of the exhibits?
A Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions at this time.

COL ROCK: Let me clarify one thing, in my own mind, with reference to the testimony of the witness. Specialist Chamberlain, would you please refer to paragraph 7 of page 12, of Government Exhibit 7, that is the big document; the report states that International Blood Group Types A and AB on each exhibit, and this is referring to Exhibits D-211 and D-214. Now Exhibit D-214 is the bath mat, a photograph of which is contained in Government Exhibit 17. Now you have testified and have diagrammed on Government Exhibit 17 only the AB type. Does this mean that you were not able to identify the A type on this photograph?

WITNESS: Yes, sir. The A blood was found on the reverse side of the towel.

COL ROCK: On the reverse side. Thank you. Does counsel for the accused have any further questions?

MR. EISMAN: May we ask in the future that these exhibits, what's ever left of them be made available to the defense, if we want to run our own tests on them? If there are remaining portions of the blood stains available?

COL ROCK: What does counsel for the government have to say?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, the real evidence in this case is in the possession of the Criminal Investigation Division in their evidence locker. I cannot get it from them for that purpose and I have no authority to have this evidence released to the defense for that purpose.

MR. EISMAN: I would say that there's nothing more basic than our right to have our own experts see the evidence, and if we are not permitted to see the evidence I would object to the government introducing it in their case. I think I have a perfect right to object to that. We can't say that we are not permitted to see these things. If the government is permitted to have them, certainly the defendant, if they are capable of being viewed by our own experts, should have the opportunity to view these, and I don't accept the excuse given that he doesn't have the authority. If he has the authority to use them in his case he also has the authority to permit us, our experts to view then also; and we have an absolute right to have our experts view them.

CPT SOMERS: Insofar as viewing these things, any time the defense wishes to go to the Criminal Investigation Division and view these exhibits, or have their experts view these exhibits, I will attempt to arrange that. I cannot release the exhibits to the defense.

COL ROCK: I will make my ruling subsequently after I have had time to consider this, gentlemen.
I have at this time several questions of the witness. First, I noted that there seemed to be several discrepancies, perhaps they could have been typographical errors, but I would like to clarify. These all relate to Government Exhibit 7, the thick document. First, is with reference to page 11, paragraph 2. This refers to Exhibit -- strike that. On the third sentence, third line, the second exhibit number is D-136. I could not find an exhibit numbered D-136 in the list in the front part of this exhibit. Does, in fact, such an exhibit exist; is this a typographical error, or what?

WITNESS: Sir, I believe such exhibit does exist.

COL ROCK: Do you know, in your knowledge, where that exhibit is listed? Is it listed in some other document?

WITNESS: I believe it is, sir. I don't know which one, offhand.

COL ROCK: Would it be within your competence to answer that question, or should I address it to your Commanding Officer, or some other individual?

WITNESS: Which document it is in?

COL ROCK: No, the Exhibit D-136. Within the three Government Exhibits, which I have currently from Fort Gordon, Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, I see no evidence of that exhibit being listed.

WITNESS: What was your question, sir?

COL ROCK: My question is to whom should I address the question as to where that exhibit is listed?

WITNESS: To me, sir. I believe there is a correctional copy report. I don't know if you have a copy of that yet or not. It may be listed in there.

COL ROCK: Does counsel for the government have a copy of that correctional report?

CPT SOMERS: That the one that I intend to bring in with Mr. Browning, since he was the one you wished to ask that question of, sir.

COL ROCK: Well, I have a series of questions here. They all, however, refer to blood, and that's the reason I thought --

CPT SOMERS: I can bring that correctional report in now if you'd like, sir.

COL ROCK: What I will then do is make a list of these discrepancies that I have noted and then refer a copy to you and to counsel for the accused, and then perhaps we can clarify this thing with the next witness.
The second major point will refer to a large number of Government Exhibits on which apparently no tests were run, and I make this statement based on the fact that looking at the results of tests reveal that those exhibits apparently are not alluded to in the results. Does counsel for the accused know why that is so?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, at the time this original report was rendered, and in fact at the time all three were completed, some of the results on some of the exhibits had still not been completed. The correctional report, which is at least 50% correctional administratively, and also contains further results, I gather from having looked at it this morning, and that's the best answer I can give you.

COL ROCK: I would request then that copies of that report be presented to the investigating officer and to counsel for the accused soonest because it is quite germane to the testimony that appears to me to be of the expert witnesses which are appearing before us this date. I have no further questions of the witness. Does either counsel?

MR. EISMAN: The only thing I would ask, if we are going to get a copy of that supplemental report today, I would hope around lunch time, that Specialist Chamberlain be instructed to remain here in case there are any questions that the investigating officer or myself or Captain Somers has in regards to that supplemental report, since we don't have it.

COL ROCK: None of these expert witnesses will be released until I am satisfied we have all the information.

MR. EISMAN: Thank you, sir.

COL ROCK: One further question by the investigating officer, I direct your attention to page 6, in Exhibit D-207A, B and C; how were you able to identify the photograph as being Exhibit D-207B and not A or C?

WITNESS: Because D-207B was taken from the entrance to the master bedroom and was marked as such on the card in the photograph.

COL ROCK: Would you be able to identify the A or the C by any means?

WITNESS: Sir, I don't know. I'd have to see the photographs.

COL ROCK: No further questions of the witness. Do you request that he be excused temporarily?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, with the -- respect to the administrative corrections that are to be accomplished I do suggest that this witness, along with Mr. Browning be permitted to spend time during lunch compiling this so that we can be certain they've had long enough to take care of all the discrepancies, that is to actually testify about the discrepancies, it would be better after lunch, although I will bring the report in question before.

COL ROCK: Well, I would hope that the document you are submitting is of sufficient clarity that it will be self-explanatory, but certainly, take whatever time the gentlemen require to clarify it in your own mind.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I think it will be self-explanatory as to administrative corrections. It may not be self-explanatory to some exhibits, which even at this point, had not been completed; i.e. it may not say that a particular exhibit has or has not been completed. So it might give them more time to cross check everything and make sure they've covered all those.

COL ROCK: Well certainly use whatever time is necessary, and I believe the gentleman you mentioned would logically be our next witness. Is that correct?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Can they complete their work prior to 1330 hours?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: In order to save time, will it not be helpful to have the representative of counsel for the accused at these deliberations, so that we all are all on the same basis?

CPT SOMERS: No, sir, I don't think that would save any time. What might save time would be if the investigating officer does have a list of specific questions as to exhibits, if he'd give that to us.

COL ROCK: This will be done. I suggest that we recess until 13 --

MR. EISMAN: Could we have at least a copy of this to read during the lunch?

COL ROCK: This is going to be expedited.

CPT SOMERS: I will give him a copy.

MR. EISMAN: This is so we will have a list of questions after lunch.

COL ROCK: This hearing will be recessed until 1330.

(The hearing recessed at 110 hours, 14 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1352 hours, 14 July 1970.)

COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the closing are currently in the hearing room, with the exception of Lieutenant Malley, and the witness is also present. Please proceed, on those matters which were under consideration at the time.

CPT SOMERS: At this time the government asks that this exhibit I hand to Colonel Rock be marked as Government Exhibit --

COL ROCK: G-26, which is Change One to US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, Fort Gordon, Georgia, Lab Report Number FA-D-P-C-FP-82-70-R-4, which amends Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9.

CPT SOMERS: At this time, Specialist Chamberlain, I hand you Government Exhibit G-26. Now, sir, it might save time in this case for me simply to address myself to the points which were brought to my attention by the legal advisor as possible omissions, then we could proceed from there with any information that you may wish from this witness. I should point out for the record that a copy, in fact, two copies of G-26 have been provided to the defense. The first question posed was as to what Exhibit D-136 was. You will find this on the front page of Government Exhibit G-26.

COL ROCK: Thank you.

CPT SOMERS: The next question was as to a reference in Government Exhibit 7, on page 11, paragraph 2, to Exhibit D-232. It appears both in line 3 and line 4 from that exhibit. That is a typographical error.

COL ROCK: Therefore we will strike the last reference to D-232 from that paragraph. Before proceeding further I want to make sure that counsel for the accused is with us.

CPT DOUTHAT: Could you repeat that, please, Captain Somers?

COL ROCK: Well, I will repeat it. Page 11 of Exhibit 7, paragraph 2, line 4 the last number there is D-232. Strike that as it appears also on the above line. That is a typographical error. Proceed, counselor.

CPT SOMERS: Exhibit D-55NB was questioned. You will find the description of Exhibit D-55NB on the front page of Government Exhibit G-26.

COL ROCK: Thank you.

CPT SOMERS: Exhibit D-57NB and D-63NB are also questioned. You will find a description of those exhibits on page one of the G-26.


CPT SOMERS: Some of the questions was raised about Exhibit D-224, which is described as two bottles containing liquid from the hall bathroom sink trap. I think Specialist Chamberlain can tell us what was done there.

COL ROCK: Now that is with reference to what paragraph of Exhibit 7?

CPT SOMERS: I'll have to find it, sir. You will find it in paragraph 20 on page 13, sir, on the second line, just past midway.


CPT SOMERS: It is in the paragraph which says exhibits indicate the presence of blood. The question was, was this a stain on the bottle or from the bottle, the contents of the bottle. Specialist Chamberlain, could you answer that for us?

WITNESS: Yes, sir. The anti-human precipitin test was done on the liquid contained in the bottle. There was no red brown stain.

COL ROCK: Does counsel for the accused understand what I was questioning on that?

CPT DOUTHAT: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Can you tell us what was in that bottle, what was that liquid?

WITNESS: It appeared to be water, sir. We didn't confirm that.

CPT SOMERS: Do you know from where?

WITNESS: It, I believe, was from the trap in the bathroom sink.


CPT SOMERS: Now with reference to a list of exhibits about which nothing -- there seemed to be nothing said --

CPT BEALE: Counselor, before you go to that, I think there was one other question in reference to some confusion over one particular thing that was typed as O and in another typed as unknown. It was the same exhibit.

CPT SOMERS: Are you referring to D-108?

CPT BEALE: I don't know which one.

CPT SOMERS: Would you look at Government Exhibit 7, please Specialist Chamberlain. On page 4 you will find a listing for D-108. Paragraph 12, on page 12 you will find it is listed as having indicated type O blood. Do you see that?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Your finding is listed again in paragraph 19 on page 13 on the second line, third from the right. Do you see it there?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, it is crossed out on this copy.

CPT SOMERS: Do you know, as between showing type O blood and showing of the presence of human blood, which is correct, or are both correct?

WITNESS: Both are correct, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Both are correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, except that we were able to determine that there was an indication of the type O, which would be incorrect so far as the statement that blood typing examinations were precluded due to the paucity of the stain.

COL ROCK: Are you saying essentially that in paragraph 19, the Exhibit D-108 should be struck from that second line?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Is counsel for the accused with me on that?

(CPT Douthat nodded in the affirmative.)

COL ROCK: Please address the second matter.

CPT SOMERS: Now I have a list from the investigating officer of exhibits which do not appear to have had work done on them. The first one listed is D-1. You will find that in paragraph one on the first page of G-26. Also, if I may back up one step, the question, Exhibit D-3, nothing appears about Exhibit D-3. If you will look at paragraph b.3 on page 2 of G-26, you will see that numbering D-3 has been changed to I-3. As to D-1a, which was questioned by the investigating officer, you will find it in paragraph 4 on page 2 of G-26.

CPT BEALE: Captain Somers, let me interrupt you for just a second. The list that we provided you with apparently has no testimony on. Are each and every one of those answered in the supplementary report?

CPT SOMERS: They are, with some exceptions. If you'd like I can just --

COL ROCK: Just address the exceptions, please.

CPT SOMERS: I should say that the exhibits J, K, M, N, and O were fingerprints exhibits. The complete results on fingerprints, we still do not have, but we do have the fingerprint man here to tell us about them. Exhibits P and Q are mentioned in one of these reports as containing no matchable fingerprints. If you like, I will point it out to you later. They are specifically mentioned. Exhibits R-1 thru T, these are fingerprints exhibits, they are mentioned on page 15 of Government Exhibit 7; P thru T are mentioned on page 7 of Government Exhibit 8, sir. Again, it will be easier for us to deal with the fingerprints when we have the fingerprint man.

COL ROCK: This is satisfactory.

CPT SOMERS: You have listed, sir, Exhibits D-240, 244, 248, and D-262. All of these may be found in paragraph 13 of Government Exhibit 8, I believe it is. That's correct, on page 5, paragraph 13, Government Exhibit 8. You have also indicated E-305. You will find E-305 on page 6, paragraph 25 of Government Exhibit 8.

COL ROCK: All right.

CPT SOMERS: I should say for the record, sir, that there will be at least one more report in final form encompassing all of these changes when that is possible. However, these preliminary reports were rendered to provide information as expeditiously as possible.

COL ROCK: Do you anticipate that report will be principally a consolidation of all the information?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir, that's what I expect, with the possible exception of some analysis which we know that Mr. Browning is still doing on wax and some analyses which are still proceeding in the fingerprint section.

COL ROCK: Is there any indication when we may expect that? Will it be prior to the conclusion of this hearing?

CPT SOMERS: I would estimate that it will not, sir. Every effort, however, will be made to see that it is.

COL ROCK: Do you know what the basic holdup is? It surely isn't just typing?

CPT SOMERS: No, sir, as I have indicated in the case of Mr. Browning. He has just received more exhibits to compare; in the case of fingerprint section, they have just received twenty-four more sets of record prints, or twenty-three more sets of record prints to compare, some of these gathered from quite diverse places.
At this time, sir, I ask that the document I hand you now be marked as Government Exhibit --

COL ROCK: Government Exhibit 27.

CPT SOMERS: Let the record reflect that I am providing the defense with a copy of this exhibit.

COL ROCK: What does this exhibit purport to be?

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I would like to have Chamberlain explain this exhibit to you.

COL ROCK: All right, and then we'll give a name to it, I guess.

CPT SOMERS: Specialist Chamberlain, I show you Government Exhibit G-27. Can you tell us what this is, please?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, this is a list of the exhibits obtained for the most part from the MacDonald house, and it summarizes what the prefix letters are to the exhibits. For instance, Exhibit D is respect to blood stains. Actually we list Exhibits D-1 approximately through D-250. Similarly, Exhibit E refers to fibers, hairs and debris. It might be through E-30 or 40, and so forth.

COL ROCK: Let the record reflect that G-27 is a prefix key for use in determining the exhibits found so far in Government Exhibits 7, 8, and 9, and 26.

CPT SOMERS: Now there are one or two things which can be said. There was a question raised about results on Exhibit H. Could you tell us about Exhibit H, please, Specialist Chamberlain?

WITNESS: Exhibit H itself is just a generalization. The description of the exhibit actually -- Exhibit H would be composed of Exhibit H-1, H-2, and so forth.

CPT SOMERS: If you will look please on page 3 of Government Exhibit 8, you will find reference to some exhibits prefixed by the letter H. Is that what you referred to?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

CPT SOMERS: Now if you will look at Government Exhibit 26, which is the change report, in paragraph 2, under b. on page 2, you have some changes noted. Compare those changes, please, against page 6 of Government Exhibit 8, which is the report on 17 April.

WITNESS: Page 6, paragraph 28 -- excuse me -- what government exhibit was that -- 8?

CPT SOMERS: Yes. Now these changes noted in paragraph b.2 -- are they correct changes?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, I believe they are. That is the exhibit should be H-35NB and the H is before -- H-54NB.

COL ROCK: Well, counsel, I don't see the number E-35 NB and E-54NB in paragraph 28 of Exhibit 8.

CPT SOMERS: That's my difficulty, sir. I don't see it either.

COL ROCK: My report shows it as H-35NB and H-54NB. Is that what it should read?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is the way it should read. It should be H-35NB and H-54NB.

CPT SOMERS: Could you explain why the apparent confusion here with reference to -- were you looking at a carbon copy, or what was the difficulty here?

WITNESS: Well, I believe the correction for E-35NB to H-35NB is necessary; however, when I was making up this correction sheet, it was difficult to distinguish H-54NB from E-54NB on the carbon copy. So I wish to make certain that it would read H-54NB.

CPT SOMERS: Well, at any rate, both of these should be preceded with the prefix H. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I believe that's all the corrections, and I -- to the best of my knowledge it accounts for all exhibits.

COL ROCK: Then in reality paragraph b.2 of Government Exhibit 26 should be lined out. Is that correct, since no apparent error is evident in the evidence which we have before us?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Does counsel for the accused understand this?

CPT DOUTHAT: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: Then we will strike that from the record.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I have no more questions of this witness.

COL ROCK: Does counsel for the accused have any further questions?

MR. EISMAN: Not at this time, sir.

COL ROCK: Specialist Chamberlain, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the accused or counsel for the government. Do you understand this?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.

COL ROCK: You are temporarily excused subject to recall.

(Witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS: Sir, I'd like to point out at this juncture that insofar as I am aware what we have just done with this witness and the exhibit which had just been introduced takes care of the administrative difficulties in these reports. I bring this up because I see now no reason to recall Mr. Browning for that purpose.

COL ROCK: I concur with your general observation. The reason I am holding on to them is until such time as we hear from the last expert witness in case there should develop some question in our minds before they depart for Fort Gordon. I think it appropriate to have them stand by.

CPT SOMERS: No, sir, I wasn't suggesting that we release them. I just wanted to bring this up before other witnesses.

COL ROCK: Yes, sir, I agree with you on your assumption.

CPT SOMERS: Are you ready for my next witness?

COL ROCK: Ready.



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