The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.


The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald
 

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

ARTICLE 32 HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
JULY 7, 1970: Lieutenant Joseph Paulk (MP)
 

COLONEL ROCK: I believe that he was being queried by counsel for the accused. Lt. Paulk, please take your seat, and I remind you again that you are still under oath.

Question by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lt. Paulk, since we adjourned yesterday have you had occasion to discuss your testimony here in this hearing with any person?
A None other than Captain Somers.
Q And what was the nature of that discussion?
A It was just -- I don't even -- I don't recall exactly. It wasn't anything I considered important.
Q Well --

COLONEL ROCK: That wasn't what the counsel asked you. He asked you a specific question. Please address yourself to that question.

A Yes, sir. I asked him, or I discussed with him what was the purpose of, of the talk about the, possibly spot, wet spot on the floor or, or what was important, so important about the grass or this or that, and specifically, that was one of the specific things that I, I asked Captain Somers about, and about how much longer would it be until we finished with the questioning, and what I might expect from you today.
Q You mean what additional questions you might expect in regard to the examination here in this hearing today?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did Captain Somers give you his judgment or his opinion of what else might be asked you today?
A He didn't know.
Q And did Captain Somers explain to you what he considered to be the significance of the questions about the foreign substance, foreign matters on the rug in the MacDonald house?
A No.
Q Did he make any answer at all to your question about what was the significance of the questions on that subject?
A Not that I recall. Offhand, he was rather busy with this and that and different paperwork he was handling and talking to different people.
Q Are you telling this inquiry that you never in fact got an answer to the question that you posed to Captain Somers on what was the importance of all the questioning about the alleged foreign matter on the floor of the MacDonald living room?
A No sir, I'm not saying that. I just said I don't recall. I don't remember any specific portion that he might have said.
Q Do you remember anything at all that was said to you in response to your question on that subject matter?
A No.
Q Did anything else become the subject of discussion between you and Captain Somers in regard to what transpired here yesterday?
A I don't recall anything.
Q Now may I ask, Lieutenant Paulk, whether you had occasion to mention or discuss your testimony given here with other persons other than Captain Somers?
A No.
Q May I ask you why there was any particular reason that you are unable to recall what Captain Somers' responses were to you about the importance of the foreign matter on the rug?
A No particular reason. It was just sort of a passing sort of thing. It was not a, a -- either Captain Somers didn't consider it -- was too busy at the time or didn't consider it import, or he was too busy or something to consider it to warrant time enough to, for explanation.
Q Are you saying to us now that he did not explain it to you, or you just simply don't recall, what, if any explanation he made?
A I just simply don't recall what, if any, explanation that he did make upon it.
Q Well, is that because some other things happened to you yesterday which were perhaps more significant or of interest to you than your testimony here in this proceeding?
A No, nothing happened unusual to me yesterday that particularly stands out.
Q Did you consider your participation in these proceedings yesterday to be a matter of some importance to both yourself and the Army?
A Yes I did, sir.
Q And did you yourself, believe that the questions in regard to the so called presence of foreign matter on the MacDonald rug to be a question of some importance to this hearing?
A Do I consider it now, or did I consider it then?
Q At the conclusion of yesterday's proceedings were you of the opinion that we were discussing something here which might be of some importance to a determination of this hearing?
A At the conclusion -- during the questioning I wasn't, I didn't exactly see the point then, but I began to see the point at the end.
Q And that was when you brought up the matter to Captain Somers, is that right?
A I don't know if it was exactly then or not. It was some time after the conclusion of the hearing.
Q Now, do you recall the last thing that was said to you by the inquiry officer, Colonel Rock, before you left the courtroom yesterday?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that, sir?
A He told me not to discuss this with anyone and -- anyone.
Q And did you consider that your making certain statements and asking certain questions of Captain Somers was consistent with the instruction given to you by Colonel Rock?
A Well, I was --

CPT SOMERS: I object to this. The defense counsel is attempting, apparently, to lead this witness to believe that the instructions of the investigating officer prevented him from speaking to the counsel in this case. I think that that's an erroneous conclusion and I think it is unnecessary for the defense counsel to attempt to get such a conclusion.

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I am not attempting to establish anything as to what this witness' conclusions are. I am simply making the point that nothing should be more absolutely crystal clear than a witness who was under cross examination had no right to discuss with anyone the nature and testimony of his -- the importance of his testimony; and that in fact this witness did receive an instruction which seems to me to have been crystal clear, and that is my judgment, sir, at this point, it is sufficiently clear that this witness did not obey the instruction of the inquiry officer, and that we are indeed perhaps formulating some release in regard to that. At this point I would ask the hearing officer to rule on the question of whether its order to this witness who was under cross examination was in fact violated by the conversation between Lieutenant Paulk and Captain Somers. I don't suggest necessarily the witness did this with deliberate intention of doing something wrong, sir, but deliberately or unintentionally, he nevertheless created a situation which proposes a very grave question. I know of only one exception of a person who may speak to any party about a case when he is under cross examination, and that single exception is the accused himself, who may never be denied the assistance of counsel, and only he when on the witness stand is excused for some recess or for overnight adjournment of the case, any consult with anyone else; and the witness, obviously not being the accused in this case was not exempt from the order of this court, and that we have here a situation which requires, I think, some relief to the accused, and at this point I, myself, am not certain as to what we can possibly do to rectify the situation. I would want a few moments to discuss with co-counsel that problem, but I do ask initially the hearing officer to rule on this question that the order entered yesterday has in fact been abrogated by this particular witness.

COLONEL ROCK: Counsel for the government?

CPT SOMERS: The prosecution would respond to that by saying that it appreciates the information and the experience of the defense counsel as to what he feels or he knows or he wants to tell us about who may speak to a witness who is under cross examination, but we propose that the exception to the rule is broader that he led you to believe in that it encompasses as an exception either side, whether it be the accused or the prosecution so long as it is only one of the parties to the proceedings.

COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will be adjourned for five minutes.

(The hearing adjourned at 1403 hours, 7 July 1970.)


(The hearing reconvened at 1410 hours, 7 July 1970.)

COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will continue.
First, let me note that the counsel for the government has objected to Mr. Segal's line of questioning of this witness. I sustain the objection and will instruct counsel for the defense to continue with his cross examination of this witness on the merits.
Mr. Segal, I further wish to state that it is my opinion that a witness has the right to generally discuss his testimony with the counsel for either side. From the witness' responses to your questions, I am satisfied that the exchange that took place between Captain Somers and the witness was not of the nature as to be prejudicial to the accused. You may continue with your cross examination on the merits.

Q Lieutenant Paulk, I think yesterday we had interrupted the questioning at that junction where you had returned to the MacDonald house after having made what I believe a radio call to your headquarters for ambulances and for CID. Is that your recollection of where we stopped yesterday?
A I believe that was it, sir.
Q Now when you came back into the MacDonald house, into what room did you enter?
A I came into the living room, sir, through the front door.
Q Through the front door, and did you stay in the living room initially?
A Initially, yes.
Q What did you do there?
A I was taking – I believe I was taking notes at this time, I was using my notebook writing down quick notes and more or less sort of supervising anything that, what was going on, having these personnel stand over to the edge of the room.
Q Is it more accurate to say that when you came back in you found that there were military policemen in all parts of this living room and other parts of the house whom you believed might be in a position of interfering with the preservation of the crime scene and of evidence by the way they were then moving about?
A No, sir, it wouldn't be fair to say that.
Q Well, what would you characterize the scene as when you came back in with regard to what the various military policemen were doing?
A I can give you what I saw. I think I can better, sir, by pointing it out on the chart over there if you would like for me to.
Q First of all I want to go back before you point it out whether or not it is correct to say that when you came in you believe that there were, first of all too many military policemen in or about the building, and secondly, they were not being aware of the necessity of preserving the crime scene as it was.
A I believe they were aware of the necessity of preserving the crime scene. Now in answer to the second part of your question, did I feel that there were -- that there were an inordinate number of personnel in the area –
Q Yes?
A I feel that there were military policemen who were standing in the area who were not needed at the time.
Q And as a matter of fact, did you not characterize -- strike that -- What did you do when you made this observation that there were military policemen who were not needed in the area?
A A number of times, several times, I told military policemen in the area to be sure not to touch anything or move anything or upset any type of object or anything. I also told some military policemen to go outside and guard the area around the house and not let anyone in that was not on some sort of official type of business.
Q And would it be fair to say that you were more than somewhat angry at the number of men in the house who did not seem to be aware of the necessity of leaving the crime scene in as much original condition as possible?
A I wouldn't say I was angry about it, no.
Q Do you recall giving an interview to Captain Douthat, the assistant defense counsel in this case?
A Yes, I do, sir.
Q And do you recall him asking you to describe what happened when you came back into the MacDonald living room after making the radio message?
A I don't -- I recall the general conversation, yes, sir.
Q Do you recall telling Captain MacDonald that when you came back in the front door -- I beg your pardon -- you told Captain Douthat, that when you came back in the front door after making that radio call, that you started "kicking ass" about people being in the house?
A Those exact words, no, I don't recall, but I could have very well said it.
Q And it would be fair to say that expression you were indicating at least annoyance. If not more so of what you considered to be a failure of these MP's to make sure the crime scene was undisturbed?
A Not so much annoyance, as a little concerned over it. Kicking ass is sort of a common term in the Army.
Q And what you were doing by kicking ass was to boot some of them outside to take up positions guarding the building, is that right?
A I was telling personnel to go outside.
Q And to those you did not order outside you were telling them in no uncertain terms of necessity of leaving the crime scene as undisturbed as possible?
A Yes, I was.
Q Now at that point did you go to the rear bedroom?
A Yes, I believe I did, sir.
Q Was that for the purpose of checking the progress of work that the MP's were doing there -- instead of the rear bedroom, I meant master bedroom.
A Yes, the master bedroom. Yes, I went back there to check to see how the MP's were doing and also to see if Captain MacDonald, what his condition was.
Q Now what did you observe about the MP's in that room? Were they in fact all doing their job at that time?
A As I recall they were. They were having a little bit of problem with the Captain, because the Captain was -- seemed upset. He was attempting to stand up at times. It didn't look like a very good thing to do and they were -- they wanted to help him, but yet they did not want him to stand up, and they didn't want him to strain to stand up.
Q As a matter of fact, what did you note that your driver, Specialist Dickerson, was doing in the master bedroom when you came back?
A I don't recall now.
Q May I suggest to you the fact that when you came back into the master bedroom, you observed that Dickerson wasn't doing anything because he was, to use, I think, the words, that you may have used, struck by the scene of bloodshed that was in that master bedroom?
A I don't recall that.
Q Do you recall telling Captain Douthat when he interviewed you in connection with this case that when you went into the master bedroom you did observe Dickerson and he seemed, again I quote the word "struck" at the scene of the bloodshed in the room?
A No, sir, I don't recall telling Captain Douthat that either.
Q Would you say now, upon reflecting upon what you remember that happened in the room that this would be an accurate characterization of what Specialist Dickerson's attitude or condition was at that time?
A No, I don't, I don't recall Dickerson -- as far as I can comment on Specialist Dickerson's condition, but I can't, I don't recall that at this particular instance, him being in the bedroom and being in this particular condition.
Q Well, what about Specialist Dickerson's activities in the house? What did you notice about that?
A He opened the front door.
Q And after that what other function did he perform in regard to the investigation or the assistance of persons at the crime scene?
A I don't recall.
Q As a matter of fact, didn't you have occasion also to tell one of the MP Sergeants to get everybody out who was not needed and keep everyone else away?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that was in addition to your own repeated instructions to the various MP's about the necessity for not touching things and for staying out of the way?
A Yes, it was.
Q And wasn't it during this time that you came back to see the, what work was progressing in the master bedroom and determine the condition of Captain MacDonald, that Specialist Mica gave you the description of the four individuals who had been described to him by Captain MacDonald as being responsible for these assaults?
A I don't recall Specialist Mica ever giving me a description of the assailants.
Q Is it your recollection that Specialist Tevere gave you that information?
A I think it was Tevere. Tevere or Hagney, one of the two.
Q Now do you recall anything that Captain MacDonald was saying in the bedroom of this second visit by yourself?
A I believe, although I'm not sure he asked about his kids again.
Q And when he asked about his kids, was he asking for what their condition was, or what kind of treatment was being given them?
A Yes, I recall him asking, I don't know if it was this particular point. I seem to recall him asking, "How are my kids?" I believe those were his words.
Q And he was struggling to try and get up into a sitting position at that time?
A Yes, he was.
Q And would it be correct to say that the military policemen who were with him were trying to encourage him not to move around because of the nature of his injuries at that time?
A Yes, they were, sir.
Q Now at that time did you then leave the house to go to Warrant Officer Kalin's home?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And what happened when you went to Mr. Kalin's house?
A I remember seeing Mr. Kalin and asking if it would be all right if I used his telephone to call the Provost Marshal.
Q Where did you see Mr. Kalin?
A I believe he was in his driveway, sir, or on his doorstep, doorway or doorstep.
Q And how long would you say that was after you had initially arrived at the outside of the MacDonald house?
A I couldn't say for sure.
Q Well, give us your best estimate of how much time had elapsed since you had arrived and taken the various actions that you have been describing to us?
A I think it was a relative short period of time. I would say, I would say it was less than fifteen minutes.
Q Would it be fair to say that it was somewhere between ten and fifteen minutes after you arrived when you went to Mr. Kalin's house?
A About the best I could do, sir, would be just to say it would be less than fifteen minutes, because when you are busy as I was the time passes rather fast.
Q Now you asked Mr. Kalin for permission to use his phone and he agreed to let you do that?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do then?
A I called; I believe I called Colonel Kriwanek, sir. I either called the desk or Colonel Kriwanek, and I could relate to you the conversation to either one. I don't know which one I called first.
Q Did you have a conversation with Colonel Kriwanek who is the Provost Marshal at this post and then did you have a conversation with the Desk Sergeant of the Military Police Headquarters?
A Not necessarily in that order, but yes, sir, I did.
Q Now you called the military police desk. You then talked to Sergeant Boulware. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you tell Sergeant Boulware?
A I think at this time I gave him a description of the assailants.
Q And do you know the description you gave him?
A As I said before, there was some discrepancy in the description. I am not sure exactly which description I gave him at that time. The description I think I gave him was that there were two male Caucasians, one Negro and one female involved in -- believed to be assailants.
Q And didn't you also ask Sergeant Boulware to see what he could do about hurrying up the arrival of the CID to the scene of this investigation?
A I could have very well done so.
Q Did you also ask him at that time where the ambulances that had been requested previously by the radio message?
A Yes, I think I did.
Q And did Sergeant Boulware agree to make further calls to the CID and the ambulance people to see what was holding them back?
A Yes, he did.
Q Now at that juncture you finished these two telephone calls, and what did you do? Did you ask any questions of Mr. Kalin or his family?
A I'm not sure whether it was at this point or not, sir. I believe I asked Mr. Kalin did he hear any disturbance.
Q Do you recall what his answer was?
A I believe he said no.
Q Did you ask him whether he had been in his house before becoming aware of all the MP vehicles outside?
A No, I left immediately after that.
Q So you don't know whether he was in fact in a position to have heard anything from the MacDonald house?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you question anyone else in the Kalin house before you departed?
A No, I did not.

COLONEL ROCK: Counsel, I have one question I want to interject at this moment.
Lieutenant Paulk, do you by chance have any notes present with you here in this area that would assist you in remembering the sequence of, in perhaps expediting the testimony?

A My notes were destroyed and my statement was made from those notes.

COLONEL ROCK: I see. Thank you.

Q In regards to the question that's just been put to you by the inquiry officer, I gather both yesterday and today you said that you were making notes in some sort of personal notebook about various observations you had made.
A Yes, sir.
Q And what kind of a notebook was that?
A It was similar to the type you buy in the PX, a legal size paper, legal size tablet that slides now in the pocket of -- similar to that one there.
Q Is it similar to the one that's just been handed to me, which is a black leatherette folder in which a legal pad can be held?
A This particular one had a clip, clipboard device on it, yes.
Q And how many notes or how many pages did you use to make these various notes of your observations on the morning of February 17th?
A I believe two pages, appropriately two pages.
Q And you made those notes because you fully expected at some later time you would have to make a statement in regard to your observations and what you learned that morning?
A That's correct sir.
Q And when did you make that statement?
A At the time and date indicated on my written statement there. It was around --
Q Well, let me suggest to you the date on your written statement that you identified yesterday, the one that was signed by you, on the original is 18 February of 1970 at 1000 hours. And as far as you can recall that was about the time you made the statement. Is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: I'd like at this time for counsel to present to the witness a copy of that for his use. I think it may assist in the proceedings. This will be marked as a Government Exhibit.

CPT SOMERS: In that case, sir, let me give you this one.

COLONEL ROCK: It will be marked as Government Exhibit 2.

Q Now after you gave this statement on February 18th, what did you do with your handwritten notes?
A I threw them in the trash can I suppose, in the CID.
Q Why did you not preserve those notes which were made contemporaneously with the various observations that had been made?
A Because I made this paragraph on the second page of the -- this portion on the second page of this statement is made directly from those notes. The notes were rather scribbled and illegible by anyone except me.
Q What portion of the second page represents the transposition from your handwritten notes to this typed form?
A The portion referring to the small knife lying on the floor near the dresser, the portion of the phone, the damp spot on the bed, the particular position of the bed clothes -- well, the position of the bed clothes exactly how they were made up or turned down, the word "pig" as noted in those notes, the footprints were noted in those notes.
Q What footprints?
A Paragraph three there, sir, down the hallway, noticing blood on the floor and footprints made in blood near the bedroom.
Q Did that represent the, to the best of your recollection, all the things that you had noted on those yellow pieces of paper that had become transcribed into the three page written statement you gave to Warrant Officer Ellis?
A No, the magazines were involved in the notes. The lights, the general look from the doorway of the children was in there.
Q Anything else?
A The kitchen, the blood near the entrance were part of those notes, as I recall right now that's about as much as I can remember.
Q So at that time you went and destroyed your original notes you were satisfied that you had caused to be placed in these written statements all the pertinent observations you had made.
A As many as I could recall, sir.
Q And there isn't a single reference in any portion of your statement that you now refer to as to what foreign material you observed on the living room carpet is there?
A No, there's nothing in here.
Q And that would indicate to you that you in fact made no notes at all on your yellow pad about the presence or absence of foreign material on the living room carpet?
A Well, I don't believe I make any notes, in reference to foreign material on the living room carpet.
Q And therefore you had no notes, either from the original form or this transcribed form, when you testified yesterday about your belief as to the existence or nonexistence of damp spots and foreign material on the MacDonald rug?
A No, I had no notes at that time.
Q And is it fair to say that your recollection was probably fuller and more accurate on February the 17th and 18th than it was yesterday and today as to the details of what you observed in that house?
A Yes, it is fair to say that, sir.
Q Now after you finished these various -- strike that please -- could you tell us why you didn't preserve those yellow notes, other than the fact that you had already given a written statement?
A I didn't preserve those written notes mainly because I was the only one that could read them, and that I had imparted everything from those notes that I felt was pertinent and put them in this statement.
Q You had taken out of those notes what you thought was pertinent. Is that right?
A Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q How much did you know about the nature of the investigation at the time you made that extraction?
A The nature of the investigation?
Q Right.
A I knew very little; I've known very little about it since that time. I do not come in contact with the Provost Marshal's Office on a day to day basis.
Q What is your branch?
A Military Police, sir.
Q Did you go to Provost Marshal General's School at Fort Gordon, Georgia?
A I went to the Military Police Officer's Basic --
Q And that was given at Fort Gordon, Georgia?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is part of the Provost Marshal General's Center there. Is that right?
A It is part of the MP School, yes, sir.
Q Right. And it is your best recollection that it is standard practice for military police investigators or any investigating officer to preserve or not preserve original memoranda and notes made contemporaneously with the time of the investigation?
A The function of the duty officer is not a trained investigator. He is merely a supervisor, and anything that he sees that he may think is pertinent as a layman he may see fit to take notes.
Q You weren't here on the scene in the capacity as a layman were you?
A No.
Q You were there as the first officer on the scene and in fact the person in charge of the scene until the CID came in and took charge of the investigation?
A That is correct.
Q And you acted in that capacity by giving certain orders and instructions to other military personnel when they arrived there?
A Yes, I did.
Q So in fact, you were functioning in a capacity first as an officer, and secondly, were relying upon certain training you had in the Military Police Group as to what was necessary to do in a crisis?
A A certain amount of training, but not as extensive as possibly CID.
Q I would not for a moment suggest that you mean to supplant the CID officer. What I'm asking you, sir, is, is it your recollection that in your training as a military police officer you were or were not told that it was important to preserve original notes or memoranda made in the course of any investigation?
A As far as I can recall just offhand I don't recall anything like that, but in view of what I know about it now it would seem certain that they would say something of that nature.
Q And on reflection, it is fair to say that you probably, if you were to do it over again, would not destroy your original notes.
A No, I would not destroy my original notes if I were to do it over again.
Q Did the investigator suggest to you that there was no need to preserve the notes any further?
A No, he did not.
Q Did the investigator ask to see your original notes?
A I don't think he asked to see them. He may have seen them, but I don't know. He didn't ask.
Q Were you reading from them, or looking at them, during the time you were giving Mr. Ellis this formal written statement?
A No. I prepared the statement at my home.
Q Well, what portion of the statement are you referring to that you prepared in your home?
A I prepared the whole statement at my home.
Q When was that?
A I don't recall right now.
Q Was it prior to 1000 hours on February 18th?
A Oh. Yes, it was prior to 1000 hours on February 18th.
Q And did you write it out in longhand?
A Yes, I did.
Q And then what did you do with the longhand statement?
A I showed it to Mr. Ellis who took me around to the secretary who works at CID and I sat down with her and, the portions that she was having a hard time reading I helped her out, and she typed the statement.
Q Did she then basically type this statement from your handwritten notes with you assisting her with some difficult places with regard to handwriting?
A Which notes are you referring to?
Q I am referring to your handwritten statement that you showed to Mr. Ellis and then went to the typist with.
A From the handwritten statement, yes, she was typing it.
Q And did you use your handwritten notes made at the MacDonald house in preparation of your handwritten statement?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q Did you bring the handwritten notes with you to the CID headquarters along with your handwritten statement?
A No, I don't believe I did.
Q You believe you discarded those notes in your home?
A I think so. I'm not sure. I could have destroyed them at the CID, at some later date.
Q But to your recollection, no one ever asked you to do so, to exhibit your handwritten notes made at the crime scene?
A Yes, Captain Somers asked me to produce them at one time.
Q When did Captain Somers ask that of you?
A I'm not -- I -- I back up on that a little bit. It could have been Captain Thompson, or someone else. When he interviewed me the first time in reference to the -- this matter.
Q And how long ago was that?
A It was a pretty good while ago, three months, somewhere around there.
Q How long were you in Mr. Kalin's house making this phone call you referred to?
A Just a rough guess, two or three minutes.
Q What did you tell Colonel Kriwanek on the telephone?
A I told him that three people had been killed or murdered or something, something to that effect, and that three people were dead, and he asked me for information on who might have done it, and I gave him the description that I gave to you a few minutes ago, and he said that he would be coming right away.
Q Did you give him any other information other than what you have now told us?
A He possibly asked, I'm not sure, it seems that he asked something about CID, were they there, or something of that nature. I don't recall for sure.
Q Did Colonel Kriwanek ask you a great number of questions on the telephone?
A No, not a great number of questions.
Q Did he ask you if a roadblock had been established?
A No, he did not.
Q Did you tell him, to best of your recollection, that you had given instructions for a roadblock or road check?
A I don't know. I think I told him that we had – the law enforcement agencies had been notified of the description which was on the air.
Q Well, that's not the same thing as establishing a roadblock or a check at the entrances and exits of Fort Bragg, is it?
A No, it is not.
Q That's the request to law enforcement agencies in the county and in Fayetteville to be on the lookout for persons of the description you called in on your broadcast. Is that right?
A That is correct, sir.
Q But you are uncertain at this time as to whether or not you have ever issued such a statement or order on your own behalf?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Now after you came out of the Kalin's house, what did you do?
A I went back to Captain MacDonald's residence.
Q Did you go in directly from the Kalin house?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now who was in charge of the MacDonald house while you were out making these phone calls?
A The ranking man there who would naturally be the -- in charge while I am gone.
Q Who is that?
A The patrol supervisor, Sergeant Hagney.
Q Sergeant Hagney. Did you tell Sergeant Hagney you were going next door to make the telephone calls?
A No, I don't believe I did.
Q Where was Sergeant Hagney when you last saw him before you left the MacDonald house to make the phone calls?
A He was standing in the living room off the edge of the carpet on the floor.
Q Now you came directly back to the MacDonald house after making the phone calls in the Kalin house. Are you certain about that?
A Well, I'm not absolutely certain.
Q May I suggest to you that when you left the Kalin house you went not back to the MacDonald house but back to your car radio and you put a description of the persons who you were looking for on the air and then you came back to the front door of the MacDonald house?
A That could be possible, yes.
Q As a matter of fact, isn't that pretty close to what you told Captain Douthat, assistant counsel for the accused when he interviewed you in connection with this case?
A I'm not sure, I -- I -- I told Sergeant Boulware, after I got off the phone with Colonel Kriwanek, I believe I gave him the description over the phone. So if I went out to my car to give a description, it would be kind of redundant. That's sort of a -- sort of vague.
Q It is possible though that you went to your car after you left the Kalin household?
A It is possible.
Q But then you came back to the front door of the MacDonald house and back into the master bedroom for the third time?
A Yes, not necessarily back to the master bedroom, but I did come back in. I went back to the master bedroom at some time, but not immediately after I came in.
Q Well, what did you do on this third entry into the MacDonald house before getting back to the master bedroom?
A On the third entry into the MacDonald house -- on this entry we -- I continued just to take these notes and supervise what was gong on.
Q Well, what did that supervision consist of?
A Making sure that no one upset -- upset anything in the area.
Q And were there MP's in the living room when you came back this third time?
A Yes, there was.
Q What were they doing?
A They were standing near the edge of the carpet on the floor.
Q Well, they hadn't moved from where you had last seen them when you went out to make the phone call at the Kalin house?
A They may have moved.
Q So they hadn't changed their position significantly?
A No.
Q Well, then what instructions was necessary for you to give them if they had apparently already been obeying your instruction of staying off the rug?
A One more time please.
Q What did you tell them to do when you came back in and found that they were roughly in the same position where you had left them?
A I told them to stay where they are, don't touch anything, don't upset anything. I said that several times.
Q Why was it necessary to repeat an instruction you had given approximately three minutes before to men who apparently understood it and conformed to it?
A I want to make sure that everybody heard and understood.
Q Well, were there many people there at that time?
A How many?
Q I don't know, I wasn't there. You tell us.
A There was some people there, yes.
Q Well, how many?
A I don't know.
Q Well, you said that loud enough so everybody could hear it didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Because there was men not only in the living room. There were men in the other rooms and the master bedroom that you could observe when you came back in on this third occasion.
A As far as men in the two children's bedrooms, I don't recall ever seeing anyone going into the children's bedrooms.
Q How many military persons would you estimate were in that house when you came back on this third occasion?
A I would estimate somewhere around seven.
Q How many were in the living room?
A I would say five.
Q Which would leave Tevere and Mica in the bedroom with Captain MacDonald?
A Yes.
Q What were the five MP's doing in the living room?
A Well, they weren't doing anything at that time. They had finished up whatever work they had been doing, and were standing on the floor, on the wood floor next to the carpet.
Q What had they been doing when you went out to make the phone call in the Kalin house?
A I don't recall.
Q But they were in the living room?
A These specific individuals, I don't know whether they were in the living room or not for sure. There were some people in the living room when I went out.
Q You do remember that Sergeant Hagney was in the living room when you went out?
A I believe he was.
Q What do you mean you believe he was?
A I seem to remember turning to him and saying something to him.
Q Like what?
A I don't recall.
Q Well, did you tell me a few minutes ago that when you left the scene you gave instructions to Sergeant Hagney, or you left with the impression that Sergeant Hagney was there and he would take charge while you were gone?
A Yes, I did say that.
Q Yes, well, now you are saying you are uncertain as to whether Sergeant Hagney was in the, actually in the living room when you left to go to the Kalin house.
A I said that I turned and said something to him. I recall seeing him.
Q Well, then you are certain that Sergeant Hagney was there in the living room?
A Yes.
Q You are certain about that?
A Yes, at this particular time, yes.
Q Now who else was there besides Sergeant Hagney when you left there?
A The only other person I recall being there, I think, at this time is Sergeant Caldwell.
Q Then when you came back there were now at least five men in the living room?
A Yes, I would say, estimated.
Q Right. And it would appear to you that there was some people there when you came back whom you had not observed when you went out to make the phone call at the Kalin house?
A I couldn't say that for sure.
Q I'm not expecting you to say for sure, but aren't you under the impression that when you came back there were more people than when you left in that living room?
A No, I am not under that impression.
Q Isn't that the reason that when you came back up you started again to tell these men about being careful and not to touch anything because you observed people you were not sure you had given that instruction to before?
A No, that's not the reason.
Q Well, why was it necessary for you to repeat an instruction you had given three minutes earlier?

CPT SOMERS: I object. He's answered that question now three times.

MR. SEGAL: And I have not got, I believe, an adequate answer, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: I'd like to instruct the witness to answer the questions raised by counsel for either the government or the defense as accurately and succinctly as possible. It is recognized that you may not be able to remember all the exact details, but within your memory try to answer these questions as simply as you can and as accurately. The objection itself is overruled, but I am sympathetic to the fact that your questions are not direct to the answers in some instances. I believe that perhaps you can be a little bit more succinct and more clear in your answers to the questions of either counsel. You may continue.

Q My specific question, Lieutenant Paulk, is why did you believe it was necessary to reiterate the order about not touching the crime scene when you came back to the MacDonald house?
A I think that the reason that I mentioned that again was because of just general military training; to coordinate, give people the information, keep the troops informed, this type of -- this type of stuff, and I just think I just said it just to make sure that everybody was still up to date on what was going on.
Q It couldn't have been that you were a little panicky about the behavior of all these military policemen whom you could not fathom what they were doing at that time?
A Panicky would not be a good word. Concern -- I am sure I was concerned. Anyone would have been concerned.
Q May I suggest to you that you were then upset about the presence of all these men whose activities at that time you could not justify or account for as being valuable inside the MacDonald house?

COLONEL ROCK: Counsel, I believe the witness has already answered the question as to why he addressed the men in that fashion. I see no real point with continuing with that line of questioning at this time.

Q Do you recall when you came out the Kalin house talking to someone about the failure of the ambulances to arrive promptly at the scene at 544 Castle Drive?
A Yes, I believe I did talk to someone.
Q Do you know who that was?
A No, I don't recall at this time.
Q Was that one of the neighbors or was it one of the military policemen that was there?
A I'm certain it was one of the military policemen. I just don't remember which one it was.
Q What was the nature of the discussion about the ambulances?
A I was interested in getting some medical help for Captain MacDonald and it seemed to be some delay in getting there, and I told someone to go to the intersection of Honeycutt and Lucas and lead these people into the housing area.
Q And according to your statement that was military policeman Williams, was it not?
A Yes, I believe so. I believe it was Williams. I don't know whether he was the one I was having the discussion with.
Q Now when you went back ultimately to the master bedroom on this third occasion, is that when you observed Specialist Tevere trying to use the telephone at the MacDonald house?
A I don't remember which occasion Tevere, which time I was in the bedroom. I was in the bedroom a number of times, more than three times, and I don't remember which occasion Tevere attempted to use the telephone.
Q Now the telephone, you testified, was dangling at the end of its wire and not on the cradle when you first observed it. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Tevere apparently picked it up and attempted to get a dial tone or to make a call. Is that also correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q But he was not able to do so, and what did he do with the telephone receiver?
A As I recall he picked up the receiver, using his index finger and his thumb and placed it back on the receiver.
Q Did he attempt to dial a number?
A Yes he did.
Q Did he use his hand or his finger for that?
A Yes, he did use his finger.
Q That is opposed to taking a pencil and inserting that in the hole as to dial with?
A Yes, he used his finger.
Q Now when you last saw the master bedroom, the telephone, what position was the telephone, what position was the telephone when you last saw it on the morning of the 17th of February?
A I'm not real sure but I believe it was dangling down.
Q Do you know how the phone got off the cradle after Specialist Tevere had placed it there?
A No, I don't.
Q So that as far as you know, some individual whom you do not know, and at what time you do not know, caused the phone to be moved from the cradle to dangle down as it was when you first observed it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you do not know the fashion in which the person picked up the telephone receiver and how she or he handled the receiver in taking it off the cradle and letting it dangle?
A No, I do not.
Q They could have run their hands all over it. Is that correct?
A For all I know, yes, sir.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, are familiar with the term acid or acid head?
A Yes, I am.
Q And what do you understand those terms to mean in general parlance?
A My understanding it means to be a person, or one who consumes drugs.
Q Did you have occasion to hear that phrase, acid head in the MacDonald house on the morning of February 17th 1970?
A Yes, I did hear that term.
Q And from whom did you hear it?
A I heard it from Captain MacDonald.
Q Was this, as we understand the chronology, you were in the master bedroom on at least three occasions. Do you recall which of those occasions that term, acid head, was mentioned?
A No, I don't.
Q Can you tell the investigating officer what you heard in regard to acid head?
A I believe Captain MacDonald's words were something -- "I'm going to kill those God-damned acid heads, and I'm not going to help them anymore," or something to that effect.
Q Was that said to Captain MacDonald when one of the military policemen was trying to assist him prior to the arrival of medical personnel?
A Possibly, I don't recall for sure.
Q Did you ask what the relevance of that statement was or make any inquiry about that statement?
A Did I ask Captain MacDonald personally?
Q Yes, sir?
A No.
Q Did you ask the MP's what the relevance of that was?
A No, I think I understood the relevance of it.
Q You understood it based on what information?
A The description -- I don't know exactly what information but the --
Q Let me ask you this, Lieutenant Paulk. What did you understand the significance of Captain MacDonald's statement to be about these acid heads?
A From his statement it just seemed to me he was angry enough that a person, or persons -- he was angry enough at persons unknown that he would like to kill the, and apparently that he, in view of the description and everything that he must have been referring to the assailants.
Q Did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on February 17th at Womack Army Hospital?
A Yes, I did.
Q About how long -- or rather, what time was that approximately?
A It was somewhere around 0700 or 0630, somewhere in that area.
Q And what was the circumstances that brought you to the hospital to see Captain MacDonald?
A Colonel Kriwanek asked me to see if I could obtain any -- any pertinent information as to the -- as to the evidence or descriptions or anything of that nature of possible suspects.
Q And what did you do when you got to the hospital?
A I asked, I believe, Captain or Major Jacobson if I could see the Captain.
Q And Jacobson was a medical, in fact, he's medical doctor stationed at the hospital, is he not?
A I believe he is.
Q And why did you ask Doctor Jacobson for permission to see Captain MacDonald?
A I didn't feel like it would be – it would be kind of rude to just walk in.
Q What I really was trying to fathom as to why Doctor Jacobson as opposed to any other physician at the hospital. Were you given to understand that he was the physician in charge of treating Captain MacDonald at that time?
A I believe a nurse referred me to him at this time and he was the only doctor in that area, what I assumed to be a doctor.
Q And did he give you permission to talk to Captain MacDonald?
A I believe he told the nurse it would be all right.
Q You didn't actually speak to him yourself?
A No, I don't believe so, sir.
Q Then you went to Captain MacDonald's room and what happened then?
A I questioned Captain MacDonald as to what he did, who he saw, who he had treated recently, and asked him if there was anything he might be able to give me that may help us to find the assailants.
Q Then you were conducting a portion of the investigation of this case then at that time, is that right?
A At this time I suppose you could say that, sir.
Q Well, you were sent to the hospital for the purpose of getting these details about possible suspects including some of the patients of Doctor, Captain MacDonald?
A That's true, sir.
Q And you were in fact preparing a fact sheet of this information you received from Captain MacDonald and turned it over to the criminal investigators in this case?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q Did you retain a copy of that?
A No, sir. There were a number of copies made and they were all given to the CID.
Q To whom did you turn them over?
A I believe I gave them to the secretary in the Operations Division of the CID.
Q But you, yourself, do not have a copy of that fact sheet?
A I don't.
Q Have you seen that at anytime since you turned it in to that secretary?
A I have not.
Q Did you observe Captain MacDonald's condition at the time you were talking to him?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And what was your observation as to what his condition was?
A He seemed to be a little bit better but he was still upset, what I considered to be upset.
Q Did he appear to you to be in pain or not?
A Yes, he did appear to be in pain.
Q Did he appear to be in small pain or great pain?
A He appeared to be in great pain.
Q As a matter of fact that's exactly the phrase you used when you gave this written statement on February 18th, 1970, to the CID, and I refer your attention to the fourth line from the bottom of page two of your statement.
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are not wavering from your opinion held at that time when you saw Captain MacDonald in the hospital you were of the opinion, as a layman, of course, that Captain MacDonald was in great pain?
A No, I -- I wasn't wavering.
Q Would you at this time be in a position to recall the various pieces of information that you recorded on that fact sheet you turned in to the CID?
A One name stands out particularly, because this man was apprehended.
Q You mean the name of a suspect that was given to you by Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q What is that name?
A The man's name was Badger. I believe he was assigned to the 6th or 7th Special Forces.
Q Are you saying that you received other names from Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, I did.
Q But at this time you do not have any special recollection of those names?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you receive any information about height, weight, additional detailed description?
A Yes, I believe I got the information about the hat the girl was wearing.

MR. SEGAL: May it please the inquiry officer. At this time I would call upon the government to make available a copy of that statement in view of the fact that Lieutenant Paulk, I think, would be best examined as to the statement Captain MacDonald made with the aid of that document.

COLONEL ROCK: Is counsel for the government prepared at this time to produce that document? If not, what sort of a delay would be necessary to make the document available?

CPT SOMERS: He is not currently prepared to produce this document, and I cannot estimate accurately how long it will take. I assume it could be done inside an hour.

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I don't purpose that we wait at this point. I have another short line of questioning and then we could excuse this witness subject to recall. However, we could break now if that would be agreeable to you, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: That is acceptable. Affirmative. The counsel for the government will produce that document at a convenient time tomorrow.

CPT SOMERS: Counsel for the government will attempt to do so, sir.

MR. SEGAL: May I suggest, sir, it might be appropriate to take a short recess and then we can reconvene. I can't think we would have a need for Lieutenant Paulk for more than fifteen minutes, unless Captain Somers has some re-cross, and he may want to start on another witness after the break.

COLONEL ROCK: Fine, we will recess for ten minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1515 hours, 7 July 1970.)


(The hearing opened at 1530 hours, 7 July 1970.)

COLONEL ROCK: The investigation will open. All parties that were present at the time of recess are currently present.
The Witness is reminded again that he is under oath. Proceed, counsel.

Question by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, did you take notice in the living room of the MacDonald house of a stereo system there?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And was there any particular reason why you happened to notice that?
A I have one of the same brand. My father used to be affiliated with the same company.
Q And was there anything unusual about the placement of that system or where it was or anything that struck you as being out of the ordinary?
A No, sir.
Q Was it on or off at the time you were in the MacDonald house?
A To the best of my knowledge, of course, you know it could have possibly been on, but I didn't see any power light or any turn table turning or anything of that nature.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk after you observed Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald in the master bedroom, you went to the doorway of the front bedroom and observed the older MacDonald child. Is that right?
A This is speaking of the first --
Q The first time.
A I assume it was the older child.
Q For the purpose of this question, that is correct. Now would you tell us please how you determined what the condition of that child was at that time?
A I looked in the room from the doorway at the -- at the child and didn't see any motion, evidence of breathing or anything of that nature.
Q Well, you say you didn't see any evidence of breathing. How far were you, when you were standing in the doorway from where the child was?
A I'd estimate about seven or eight feet.
Q And, of course, what lights were on in that front bedroom?
A There were none on in that particular bedroom.
Q None at all?
A That's correct, sir.
Q How did you determine whether that child had any pulse at all at that time?
A I did not touch the child, sir.
Q You did not come any closer than the doorway?
A That's correct, sir.
Q How were you able to determine whether or not medical aid if rendered the child at that time might have been of some assistance to the child?
A Well, at the time I was checking for victims to see if any were alive that I could tell right off the bat that they were alive, if I could help them. And during this checking time, one of the MP's checked the children.
Q Well, when did an MP check the children?
A I don't know the exact time. It was initially, right off.
Q Are you telling us that when you came into the MacDonald house, you went down from the -- the rear entrance, which is the utility room, you went down to the next bedroom. Is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And you passed both the front bedroom and the rear bedroom on the way to the master bedroom?
A No, I was on my way to the kitchen, on my way to the living room, dining room.
Q But when you first came in, didn't you -- when you came out of the master bedroom and went down the hall, did you see any MP's in either the front or rear bedroom?
A No.
Q How did you gather the impression that some MP had checked the children out at a closer distance than yourself the medical condition of either of the children?
A I'm not certain, but I believe I asked Mica at one time or the other, I'm not sure, had anyone checked out the children, and I believe he said that he did.
Q Well, now, if I understood what happened initially in this house -- you tried to get in the front door. You weren't able to do so, and then you dispatched or caused to have sent to the rear of the house some of the MP's who had arrived in those first two vehicles. Am I correct in that regard?
A That's correct sir.
Q And you were going to go back to your vehicle to make a radio call to get authority to enter the premises?
A That's correct.
Q But you never actually got back to your vehicle because in that brief span of time somebody yelled from the back of the house, they're here, or we found them.
A That's correct, sir.
Q You then, I assume, ran around to the back of the house.
A That's correct, sir.
Q And when you got to the back of this house you went in the same door that -- which was the only open door, which was the one in the utility room that the MP's were going in?
A That's correct, sir.
Q So then you came in and when you came in you found how many MP's in the master bedroom?
A As I recall two.
Q That was Mica and Tevere?
A Right, sir.
Q And both of them were kneeling where Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald were?
A Mica was kneeling.
Q And where was Mr. Tevere?
A I don't recall his exact position.
Q He was staring at the two bodies?
A He was in the area.
Q Was there any indication that either of them had been down the hall, made an entry into the front bedroom and then an entry into the rear bedroom and then back in the master bedroom with a report on the condition of those persons before you were able to get into the house?
A There was no indication at this.
Q Well, what caused you to believe that they had checked the condition of those persons in the front and rear bedrooms?
A After I went down and checked the two bedrooms and continued to the kitchen looking for other victims, I came back to the master bedroom and I asked someone in that bedroom, did you check out the children, or, did anyone check out the children.
Q And what did this someone say?
A I believe Mica said he did.
Q But you were the first person, to the best of your knowledge, who left the master bedroom and went down the hall toward the living room.
A To the best of my knowledge, yes, I was.
Q And so, as a matter of fact, at that time, you didn't believe that either of those two MP's had checked out the other rooms, did you?
A As I was moving down the hall?
Q Yes.
A Not at that time.
Q You were under the impression that you were the first of the military police to go down that part of the house?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Well, believing that you were the first military policemen to go into that part of the house, what caused you to make a determination as to whether either of those children were living without going into the room and checking them at some closer distance than six or seven feet?
A What caused me to make that determination?
Q That is right, sir.
A The fact the only -- the only thing I can say there was -- I can't say that I was absolutely sure that they were dead, but the main thing that contributed to my belief that they were dead because there was no just -- there was just absolutely no movement whatsoever.
Q You would hardly consider that to be the best way of determining whether there was a flicker of life in either of these children by looking at them from six or seven feet in an unlit room though, would you?
A No, I wouldn't consider that the best way.
Q The best way would have been to at least approach the bodies in the bed and perhaps check for a heartbeat at close distance and pulse beat at close distance?
A I would say that would be the best way.
Q When you went back to the master bedroom and you asked Mr. Mica and Mr. Tevere whether they had checked out the children -- is that right?
A I asked someone in the room, yes.
Q Well, either one of those two. Is that right?
A I don't know whether it was those two or not. I don't recall the exact number of personnel that were in the bedroom at that time.
Q Well, at that point who else was around the scene besides those two, yourself, and the other two MP's in the other vehicle?
A I don't know who was in the bedroom at that time exactly by name. This was a few seconds afterwards and other personnel had time to come.
Q From that point on did a number of military police vehicles and ambulances arrive in the course of the next twenty minutes to half an hour?
A I don't know, I didn't get outside that much to see.
Q Well, you heard vehicles coming up, I assume, did you not?
A No, I didn't hear any. I noticed some more personnel in the area.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, do have any idea when the ambulances arrived at the MacDonald house on February 17th?
A No, I don't have any idea exactly, exactly what time. I remember the medical personal coming through the front door after the front door was opened.
Q And the front door was opened about how long after you arrived on the scene?
A A very short time. Maybe a minute.
Q Well, is it fair to say that at least fifteen minutes after you arrived there that -- more than fifteen minutes the ambulances arrived?
A No, I don't think it would be fair to say that.
Q Well, I was under the impression before that you said that it was not more than fifteen minutes after you had been there that you made this additional calls for the CID and for -- check on where the ambulances were, calling Sergeant Boulware.
A As I said before, I didn't hear any vehicles or anything, and I -- I couldn't, couldn't say exactly what time the ambulances arrived.

COLONEL ROCK: Lieutenant Paulk you don't have to say exactly, but in your own common judgment can you give an estimate of appropriately how long after you arrived?

A Sir, it would be hard for me to do so since I was in the house. I wouldn't want to give misinformation.

COLONEL ROCK: Well, we fully appreciate that fact, but would you say it was roughly fifteen minutes afterwards that you saw the medical attendants, or half an hour, an hour, two hours? Try to place these questions into some context.

A I would say, I would say it possibly, I guess it was around fifteen minutes.
Q Fifteen?
A I guess it would have been around fifteen minutes.
Q Did you see Captain MacDonald being carried out by the medical personnel?
A Yes, I did, sir.
Q And did you observe what, if anything, Captain MacDonald was doing when he was being carried out?
A Yes, he was trying to, trying to sit up on the stretcher, sir.
Q And did you hear what he was saying about why he was trying to get up or what he wanted to do when he got up?
A I sort of vaguely recall something, but I hesitate to say it since it was so vague. He -- he -- I think he was asking about his kids.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further at this time, subject to the witness being recalled when we have available the fact sheet that he prepared which could tomorrow, or anytime at the conveniences of the court and the government.

COLONEL ROCK: Redirect by the government?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, did you at any time prevent placing the roadblocks?
A No.
Q You did not. Now regarding your testimony concerning the absence of foreign materials on the rug in the living room, is that testimony true to best of your knowledge?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now I understand that you have no notes on this, but nonetheless you are stating it as true testimony?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now you've described some of the things you saw in this house. Would you come over here, please?
A Yes, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: Let the record reflect that the witness is standing adjacent to the exhibit of the scene of the crime, Government Exhibit 1.

Q I'm thinking it would be interesting to the investigating officer if you would tell us what you saw in the southeast section of the living room, the first time you looked.
A In this particular area over here, the -- sofa against this wall.
Q The east wall?
A Yes, and there was an end table around here.
Q In the southeast corner?
A Yes and a coffee table was in front of the sofa overturned at an angle like this.
Q Perhaps 30 degrees pointing toward the middle of the room?
A Well, it wasn't quite pointing toward the middle of the room. I'd say it was pointing towards this area.
Q Pointing away from the hall?
A Yes.
Q Did you notice anything near or under that table?
A The thing that is most outstanding was the potted plant that was lying in front of the table.
Q You saw a potted plant lying in front of the table?
A That's correct.
Q Was it in its pot?
A No.
Q I see. Now how was this table lying? Was it on its top or --
A On its side.
Q I see. What was the appearance of the dining room area? Was it in disarray or --
A It was -- it was straight, more or less straight. There was -- I didn't notice anything on the floor or anything knocked over.
Q I see. Have your seat please. Now on cross examination you were asked about the replacement of the telephone receiver in the bedroom.
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember anything, given the opportunity to think about it now, about the change of the position subsequent to that from the receiver on the cradle? Of that receiver.
A I'm not absolutely sure of this, but I think Tevere possibly removed the phone and put it back down.

MR. SEGAL: I would object and move to strike the answer. It is entirely speculative since the witness has already previously testified that he didn't know and would be offering a guess, at best.

COLONEL ROCK: I seem to recall that yesterday there was some evidence that was similar to the evidence he is now giving regarding this telephone matter. I think we had best pursue it a little further to determine what the true effects seem to be. If necessary we can get, perhaps, a copy of the testimony yesterday regarding the telephone.

Q To the best of your recollection -- nobody is asking you to state an absolute fact -- but to the best of your recollection, what do you think Tevere did with that phone?
A To the best of my recollection I think Tevere removed it and put it down.
Q By down, do you mean dangling?
A Yes.

COLONEL ROCK: This is generally my recollection of what was said yesterday, though I don't recall the specific name. Does counsel for the government recall whether this was generally the testimony given yesterday?

CPT SOMERS: Precisely the testimony given yesterday, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: Would counsel for the accused prefer that we attempt to get the record of yesterday to clarify this point?

MR. SEGAL: I don't think that is necessary at this point, sir, but I do think it is desirable to try to establish what basis of the witness's, I suppose, guesstimate. I have no idea whether he is testifying now out of prolonged knowledge, or the recollection of what he saw, what he was told. It seems to be very relevant at this time.

CPT SOMERS: If I may proceed?

COLONEL ROCK: Please. We will attempt to establish that.

Q Your testimony on cross examination regarding this question, you were a little less certain that, in fact you were uncertain how that phone got back down dangling. Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q Why is that? Had your previous statement slipped your mind, or what?

MR. SEGAL: That's objected to suggest the reasons or explanations as to why the witness might or might not be given, sir. I don't think that's a proper question.

COLONEL ROCK: The objection is sustained. Counsel for the government, please rephrase your question.

Q Can you recall – can you tell us why the difference?
A I can know of no other reason, other that that.
Q Other than what?
A That I must have just forgot.
Q Okay. But you are saying now that to the best of your recollection the phone was put back down dangling by Tevere. Is that correct?
A Yes, to the best of my recollection.

CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions of this witness; however, I would request that this witness be retained in the sense that he might be recalled by the government on a broader issue than the one that the defense wishes to speak about at some time subsequent in the investigation that he can add in some way.

COLONEL ROCK: It is my intention that the witness will remain available at our call. However, at this time I think it is appropriate to determine whether counsel for the accused wishes to re-cross.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, if I may, I will.

Question by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, can you tell us when, in terms of sequence of events Specialist Tevere took the phone off the cradle and put it back in a dangling position?
A I think it was when he was trying to use it, and it didn't work, or it wouldn't work for him, so he, to the best of my recollection, left it dangling.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, it my understanding of your testimony given within the last hour, that you saw Mr. Tevere pick up the telephone which was dangling and attempt to get a line, or make a call. Am I right?
A Yes.
Q And that you further, in response to cross examination, said that he attempted to make a dialed call on that phone, and that you further said he used his finger in an attempt to make that call, as opposed to perhaps inserting a pencil in the opening of the telephone dial. Do you recall that?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q And that you then testified, to my recollection, that he then placed the cradle, telephone on its cradle. Do you recall that testimony?
A Yes, sir.
Q I then asked you did you see or did you know from your own personal knowledge and observations how the phone subsequently got off the receiver and was place in a dangling position. Do you remember my asking you that?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q And do you recall saying to me that you don't, or did not have any personal knowledge or recall as to how the phone got off. Do you recall that also? This afternoon, giving that answer.
A Those specific words, yes, sir, I suppose so.
Q And as a matter of fact, don't you recall me saying to you that you wouldn't know if the person who took the phone off the receive, off the cradle, rather, hadn't rubbed his hands over it and rubbed fingerprints on or off it, and you said you did not know whether that had happened. Isn't that right?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Can you tell us how, in the name of heaven, you can now say that oh you remember and give those answers that Mr. Tevere was the one who took it off the cradle and let it dangle again?
A In an effort, in other words, to try and give, to try to give everyone the best information, some things are very vague and -- due mainly to the time. I have a vague recollection of seeing Tevere place the phone on the hook and then letting it dangle. I seem to remember him bending over and putting it down. I hesitated to say that an hour ago because it is vague to me and I would rather not say if it's vague.
Q That's fair enough. Is it correct to say that you are not certain that Specialist Tevere took the phone off the cradle and let it dangle after attempting to make the phone call?
A I'm not absolutely positively certain. I think that, just for some reason or another, I seem to remember him doing that.
Q Aren't you describing to us now that you have an impression that Tevere did this?
A No, I don't think I am describing an impression. I seem to remember Tevere bending over to take special care in placing the receiver back down.
Q And I am asking you, sir, in a case in which a man's life is on trial for murder, whether you will state to this investigating officer that you are certain that you remember Mr. Tevere took the phone off the cradle and let it dangle?
A No, I am not absolutely certain.
Q I did not put the caveat absolutely certain. I'm not sure any of us can be absolutely certain in any event, but with a reasonable degree of certainty can you say in a case where a man's life is on trial, can you say with a reasonable degree of certainty that you remember specifically Mr. Tevere took that phone off and let it dangle again?
A Reasonably, yes, sir, I do remember it.
Q You do remember it. Will you please tell this court then, please, why you then said that as far as you know someone could have wiped their fingerprints all over the phone and let it dangle? Were you expecting at that time to give an answer of absolute certainty as opposed to reasonable certainty?
A With respect to that question, I wasn't in the bedroom all the time, and there could have -- someone else handled it without me seeing -- seeing it be handled.
Q The potted plant that you saw on the living room floor --
A Yes, sir.
Q You saw a plant, is that right?
A That or a facsimile.
Q A facsimile. What about the pot that the plant was in?
A I don't recall seeing a pot, sir.
Q Is that what you are saying now? That you saw the contents that is either earth compacted or some facsimile thereof, and the flower or green plant material that came out of it?
A Yes, sir, that's --
Q In what position was that?
A The plant was sort of facing in the direction of the -- perpendicular to the front door.
Q And also was it -- was it upright, on its side?
A It was on its side, sir.
Q On its side. But in no place did you observe the pot or a pot which could reasonably be described as a pot for this plant?
A I don't recall the pot.
Q Would that have been something that you would have wanted to note if you had seen it in the living room?
A Yes, it would have been.
Q The telephone which you say was used by Mr. Tevere to make this phone call, was the receiver dangling on the front of the table on which it was on, or on the side of the table?
A At the time I saw it, it was on the front of the table, sir.
Q And when Mr. Tevere took it off the cradle and let it dangle the second time, how did he let it dangle?
A I think he, I believe to the best of my recollection, he put it back down the front.

MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further of this witness. At this time I would request that the investigating officer instruct this witness as to the fact of all witnesses hereafter that until these particular proceedings have concluded, that they are not to discuss their testimony or ask questions about their testimony, or in anyway go into the questions as to what is being said here in this room with any persons other than counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.

COLONEL ROCK: That's precisely what I intend to do, counsel. Does counsel for the government have any further questions?

CPT SOMERS: Nothing further at this time.

COLONEL ROCK: I have a couple questions of the witness.

Questions by COLONEL ROCK:
Q Did Captain MacDonald seem to be coherent when he was describing the alleged assailants?
A I wasn't in his presence when he was describing the alleged assailants.
Q Was the kitchen door unlocked when you went into the kitchen?
A I did not enter the kitchen, sir. I was in doorway.
Q Did you smell any unusual odors or aromas in any part of the house?
A No, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: Lieutenant Paulk, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person or make any inquiries concerning the testimony which you have given in this hearing today with any person other than counsel for either side here present in the courtroom. Do you understand this?

WITNESS: Yes, sir, I do.

COLONEL ROCK: You are excused subject to recall.

WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

(The witness saluted the IO and departed the hearing room.)

COLONEL ROCK: Does counsel for the government at this time have any further witnesses to present?

CPT SOMERS: The government counsel does have the next witness.

COLONEL ROCK: Approximately how long do you think your presentation will take at this time?

CPT SOMERS: Perhaps half an hour to forty five minutes.

COLONEL ROCK: Fine. The question which I wish to raise at this time to counsel for the accused is whether or not the counsel for the accused desires to continue on with cross examination following the presentation by the next government witness, or take the normal break and have a go at it in the morning?

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I would be quite willing in this particular case to defer the cross examination until the morning. As a matter of fact I'm not sure whether Captain Somers may be able to even complete his direct examination of this witness until the normal time for adjournment and it would not be a matter of concern to me if that were carried over until tomorrow also.

COLONEL ROCK: Fine, thank you. Captain Somers, I request that if future witnesses for the government have made prior sworn statement, that there be marked as an appropriate government exhibit such statement, and handed to the witness in order to refresh the witness' memory and hopefully to expedite these proceedings. Are you prepared to so do with the next government witness?

CPT SOMERS: I am, sir, but I am not clear now whether you wish to proceed with the direct examination or whether you wish to defer it until tomorrow.

COLONEL ROCK: No, I wish to proceed with the direct examination of the next witness. We are ready now for the next witness.

MR. SEGAL: I am embarrassed, but there is an important long distance phone call that's just come into the office. May we have a three minute recess so I can receive that call?

COLONEL ROCK: We will recess for five minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1608 hours, 7 July 1970.)

 

 

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