The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site is a compendium of information about the Jeffrey MacDonald case. MacDonald was convicted in 1979 of the murders of his pregnant wife and two small daughters. He is serving three life sentences for that brutal crime.

The Murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald

The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site

July 6, 1970: Lieutenant Joseph Paulk (MP)


CPT SOMERS: At this time, sir, I regret to say that my next witness is in transit and not here.

COLONEL ROCK: Do you request a recess?

CPT SOMERS: Yes, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: We will recess for five or ten minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1005 hours, 6 July 1970.)

(The hearing was called to order at 1015 hours, 6 July 1970.)

COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order.

(1Lt Joseph L. Paulk was called as a witness by the government; was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Would you please state your full name, your grade, organization, station and armed force?
A Joseph Loy Paulk, First Lieutenant, Company C, 503d MP Battalion, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q What is your normal duty, Lieutenant?
A My duty title, sir, is platoon leader.
Q And this is an MP unit that you are in?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What were your duties on the evening of the 16th and 17th of February of this year?
A As Military Duty Officer.
Q And where do you perform this duty?
A At the main post Provost Marshal Office, sir.
Q Did you have an occasion on that evening to get an emergency call from the operator?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Would you tell us how this came to your attention?
A I was in the Operations Division of the PMO --
Q Excuse me. When you say the PMO, what do you mean?
A Provost Marshal Office and I was rewriting my Duty Officer's log so it would be more legible the next morning, and my driver, Dickerson, came in and said there was a very unusual call on the line, or something to that effect.
Q What was your response to this?
A Well, I went into the desk, the Military Police Desk, and picked up one of the lines, and Sergeant Boulware, who was the Desk Sergeant, was on the other line, and I said, may I help you, sir. Sergeant Boulware immediately interrupted and said it was not the operator, it was the operator. I obtained the address of the -- what I thought to be a domestic disturbance from the operator and proceeded to that address.
Q Okay, how did you travel?
A I traveled in our patrol car.
Q And what route did you take?
A I went down Randolph to Bernstein and took a right on Bernstein, and went straight down Bernstein until I hit -- I don't recall the name of the street -- Bernstein dead ends into the street. I took a right and went to North Lucas. I took a right on North Lucas and proceeded up until I came to Castle. I took a left on Castle went almost to North Dougherty.
Q Did you have any difficulty finding this address?
A No, sir.
Q Why is that?
A I live about a block away.
Q When you reached that address what did you do?
A I got out of my patrol car, went to the front door and knocked on the front door.
Q Did you get a response?
A No, sir.
Q What did you do then?
A I pounded on the front door, still didn't get any response. Okay, I thought I should see about a search warrant so I went back to the patrol car. I was on my way back to my patrol car and I told some MP's at the front door with me to go around and check out the back. I got about half way to my patrol car and one of them yelled they are around here. I ran around the side of the building and went into the house.
Q Lieutenant Paulk, would you step over here, please?
A Yes, sir.
Q I show you a diagram which I have erected on this tripod, and which will be marked Government Exhibit One, and ask you if this scene which is labeled 544 Castle Drive looks correct to you?

COLONEL ROCK: Would you please move the easel so I can see it as well as the defense? Can the defense see it legibly from your location?

MR. SEGAL: Surely, sir. We will move if necessary

Q Does that look accurate to you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay, now point out for me, if you will, on this diagram, where it is that this front door that you knocked on is.
A Here.
Q Now, you say you went around the house. How did you do that?
A Well, I was on my way back to the patrol car, which was parked at the front here on the street, when I heard the MP's at the rear yell --
Q Where was that?
A Down here, sir. I proceeded across and came around this way, and came in the back.
Q Now you indicated a direction beneath this diagram to the right and then up, straight up past this side, and back around the left. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which door did you enter?
A This one right here, sir.
Q You've indicated the upper right hand of the diagram?
A That's correct.
Q All right, where did you first go?
A Into the master bedroom, sir.
Q And what did you see in the master bedroom?
A I saw Mrs. MacDonald and Captain MacDonald.
Q Now you saw Mrs. MacDonald and Captain MacDonald -- did you know that that's who it was at the time?
A No.
Q Have you had them identified to you since then?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you saw a man and a woman?
A Right, sir.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And they were lying here.
Q What position was Mrs. MacDonald lying in?
A Right here.
Q Anatomically was she on her back or front?
A She was on her back, sir.
Q Was there anyone else in that room?
A Yes, sir, Captain MacDonald was in the room, and two military policemen.
Q What did you do in that room?
A I glanced at Mrs. MacDonald quickly. I determined that she was beyond help.
Q And you thought in your own mind that she was beyond help?
A Right, sir.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And Mica, MP Mica of Company A, 503d, was assisting Captain MacDonald. He seemed to have that well in hand so I decided to look for other victims. So I turned and went down this hallway, stood in the door of this bedroom.
Q Now you are indicating the middle bedroom on the bottom part of the diagram?
A Right, sir.
Q It would have to be to your left in that hall as you were proceeding down the hall?
A That is correct, sir.

MR. SEGAL: May I recommend for record purposes that we hereafter refer to that as the south bedroom; that the original bedroom that the Lieutenant described as the east bedroom?

CPT SOMERS: Master bedroom.

MR. SEGAL: It would be better to be stated in those terms.

COLONEL ROCK: Actually the rooms are marked, though you can't see it, counsel, as master bedroom, front bedroom and rear bedroom. I think if we use the terms that are on the chart, if you will in the future, according to what is on the chart.

CPT SOMERS: Is that satisfactory?

Q You are referring to having stood in the door of what has been marked as the front bedroom. Is that correct?
A Right, sir.
Q That's fine. What did you see there?
A Well, I saw a child in bed who I determined was what I thought was beyond help also.
Q I see. And what did you do then?
A I backed out of the doorway, took just a step or two and came over here and looked in this bedroom.
Q That is the bedroom marked as the rear bedroom?
A That is correct, sir.
Q What did you see there?
A I saw another child which looked again beyond help, so I backed out of this room and looked down the hall into the living room, dining room and kitchen looking around for other victims, possible victims.
Q I see. Did you find any other victims?
A No, sir.
Q Now did you take any steps, or were any steps taken in your presence to protect or prevent changes in the scene?
A Yes, sir. I took steps personally and other MP's on the scene also took steps.
Q Now would you tell us what you did?

MR. SEGAL: May I suggest that the witness be returned to his seat at this time -- so he will be easier to be followed?

CPT SOMERS: Do you think you will need to refer to this diagram in talking about what was done?

A Possibly so, sir.

CPT SOMERS: All right, remain where you are then. Speak up, now.

A I told the MP's on the scene at that time in a loud voice not to touch or move anything, just hold still. There were several in the area, and those that were working, mainly referring to MP Mica back here who was helping Captain MacDonald, to continue, and the rest just stand back. Don't touch anything. And I did this a number of times.
Q Did you supervise this?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what did you do to supervise it?
A The military police were kept to a bear minimum in here, in the master bedroom, and in the other bedrooms also. The military police in the living room were kept out of this area down where the sofa and the rug are, and were mainly concentrated around the doorways or in a semicircle around this way.
Q You are talking about the western-northern part of the living room?

COLONEL ROCK: Western-southern.
Q In a semicircle from the northern wall down to the door which is in this -- this is north in this direction.


Q Now while you were in that house, did you see anything moved by any of the MP's or anyone else in that house?
A The only thing that I saw moved was the telephone.
Q Which telephone?
A In the master bedroom.
Q And did you see anything else moved?
A No.
Q Who moved the telephone?
A MP Tevere.
Q You can return to your seat.

(Witness did as directed.)

Q Do you know why he moved that phone?
A It was to call the desk or Womack Army Hospital.
Q Was he successful in doing this?
A No.
Q And what did he do with the phone -- well, what part of it did he move?
A Just the receiver portion.
Q And what did he do with it when he was through with it?
A He placed it back on the hook for a few seconds and then he lifted it and put it back the way -- the way it was.

MR. SEGAL: That's objected to. There's no indication where it was before.

Q Did you see the way it was before?
A The way I first saw it, it was hanging down from the dresser.
Q And when you say he put it back the way it was, is that what you were referring to? Did he put it back hanging down?
A Yes.
Q All right, thank you. Did you touch or move anything in that house?
A I only touched one thing and that was the screen door and I touched it with my elbow.
Q Did you see anything else touched or moved in that house? I mean other than the people?
A Nothing except the phone, and of course the people.
Q Now you say you went into the living room and I presume -- well, you say you looked around the living room. Is that correct?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Did you see any debris, stains, mud or anything in the living room on the floor?
A Yes, I saw a plant lying on the carpet and some magazines.
Q Did you see anything in the nature of footprints or puddles of water or anything of that nature?
A No.

CPT SOMERS: No further questions at this time.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Lieutenant Paulk, do you know what time it was that your driver, Mr. Dickerson, called this matter to your attention about the so-called unusual phone call?
A Sir, it was just a little bit before four.
Q When you say just a little -- excuse me, go ahead.
A 0355.
Q 355?
A 350 to 355, something like that.
Q I didn't hear the other part -- pardon me?
A It was either 350 or 355, sir.
Q Who was the person who would have normally answered the telephone calls coming into MP headquarters at that time of the morning?
A The desk sergeant or the desk clerk, sir.
Q And the desk sergeant was who?
A Sergeant Boulware.
Q And the clerk was who?
A I don't recall at this time.
Q When you came into the room there, however, you did see Sergeant Boulware as the person who was actually on the telephone?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And did you pick up an extension of the number that he had, that he was listening to at that time?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Now did Sergeant Boulware indicate to you the nature of the assistance that was being sought from the military police at that time?
A I don't remember his exact words, sir. He indicated that there was sort of a usual call, not a normal call.
Q Not a normal call. Did not Sergeant Boulware tell you at that time that the male caller had asked for an ambulance and for military police?
A Yes, he did, sir.
Q And who was responsible or who would have been responsible for directing an ambulance to go to that scene?
A The military police.
Q Well, in fact, did Sergeant Boulware in your presence issue any order or direction or an ambulance to go to Castle Road address?
A Not that I recall, sir.
Q Do you know who did ultimately send for an ambulance to go to the MacDonald household?
A I requested them at one time.
Q Was that after you had been in the house and gone next door to make a telephone call?
A No, I requested it on our radio, sir.
Q Was that after you made the original telephone call from the house of Mr. Kalin, next door to the MacDonald house?

CPT SOMERS: I object. This is something that is not in evidence.

Q Is it a fact that you made a phone call from the Kalin house?

COLONEL ROCK: Just a minute. You are objecting to the fact that counsel for the accused is stating a fact that has not been entered in the record?

CPT SOMERS: That is correct, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: Will counsel please address the remarks so that that can be read into the record, if it is appropriate.

Q Let's back up for a moment. When did you make the radio call asking for an ambulance in terms of not time, but in terms of events after you arrived at the MacDonald house?
A After I had surveyed the area to find out how many ambulances were required, that was when I made the call.
Q By the way you did, at one time, make a phone call, did you not?
A Yes I did.
Q And was that from the house of Warrant Officer Kalin?
A It was, sir.
Q Is Warrant Officer Kalin a person who resides adjoining the MacDonald household?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now when you arrived at this location, where did your vehicle stop?
A In the street, sir. There was no parking place.
Q And what did you do at that time?
A I got out of the vehicle and ran to the front door.
Q What was the weather like?
A Wet.
Q Is it fair to say it was raining?
A Close to it, sprinkling.
Q Something slightly less than rain, but obviously just not moisture on the ground?
A Right, sir.
Q The ground, however, was wet at that time?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And the grass was wet?
A Correct, sir.
Q Did you find yourself later in having acquired wet grass on your shoes or socks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the lower part of your trousers wet, by any chance?
A No, sir.
Q What were you wearing at that time, fatigues or khakis?
A Fatigues.
Q So that the moisture and grass leaves -- grass blades were on your boots, I assume?
A Right, sir.
Q Now when you arrived at this place and ran to the front door, were there any other military police vehicles on the scene?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many were there?
A I don't recall, sir. I believe there were two.
Q And had those vehicles arrived just before you or simultaneously with your arrival?
A Just about simultaneously.
Q Had any of those military police vehicles pulled into the driveway of the MacDonald house?
A No, sir.
Q You went to the front door. Where did the other MP's go?
A They went with me.
Q Did any of them go around to the rear of the house?
A No, sir.
Q Not initially anyway?
A Right, sir.
Q So then when you went to the front door, how many other persons were there beside yourself? At the front door.
A Could you be a little more specific, sir? Do you mean on the stoop, or how many on the sidewalk or --
Q Well, gathered around outside the entrance to the house?
A I'd say about four.
Q Four in addition to yourself?
A Four including myself.
Q Where was your driver at that time?
A I don't recall.
Q You were not including him, however, in the four persons that were at or about the front of the house?
A I just know there were four persons there. I don't know who they were.
Q Do you know who any of them were beside yourself?
A I'm not sure about that.
Q Did you ever identify who were the MP's in those two patrols that you believe were there at the front of the house?
A I know that two of the MP's that were in the area when I was there were MP's Mica and Tevere.
Q How about Sergeant Hagney and Caldwell?
A I don't recall, sir.
Q Did you subsequently see those two Sergeants however later on at the MacDonald?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Now what did you do at the front door?
A I knocked on it first, and then I pounded.
Q And then what?
A I got no response, and then I looked around to see if there was any evidence of -- any type of thing that would warrant me forcibly entering.
Q Well, you say looked around, what exactly did you do?
A I looked to see if there was any lights on in the house.
Q Did you get off the front steps and go around the side of the house?
A No, sir.
Q You made a visual observation of the front of the building where you were standing at that point on the steps, trying to awaken someone or arouse them?
A That's correct, sir.
Q After you made the visual observation, which I gather didn't give you any basis for forced entry, what did you do then?
A I went back -- I started back to my patrol car.
Q And what did the other MP's do?
A I don't recall.
Q Your mind at that point, I assume, was on going back to your vehicle for the purpose of getting some kind of authority to enter this building?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Is it fair to say that you were going to try to reach the Deputy Staff Commander?
A No, sir. I would have called the Deputy Provost Marshal or the Provost Marshal, one or the other, and let them call the Deputy Staff Commander.
Q At that point you never actually got to your vehicle before something interrupted you?
A That's correct.
Q What was it that interrupted you?
A I had directed, on my way to the vehicle, for someone to go around the rear and see if there was a way of entering.
Q Now before you got to the vehicle did you hear this call from one of the other MP's?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What did he say at that time?
A They're around here.
Q Now what did you understand him to mean by that?
A I didn't know at the time, sir.
Q What did you do in response to that statement?
A I turned around and went around the side of the building.
Q Was anyone running with you or going with you at this point?
A I don't recall.
Q When you got to the rear of the building, what did you see?
A The screen door was open and the heavier door was almost open, and I moved in, went in the door, through the little room back there and into the bedroom, into the master bedroom.
Q All right, now when you came around to the back of the house, and you observed these two doors open, were there any MP's standing outside of the rear of the house where that door was open?
A I don't recall.
Q Is it fair to say that actually the next time you became aware of the presence of any other MP's was when you went inside the house and found several of them assisting Captain MacDonald or being in or about that apartment?
A That's correct.
Q Where is it that you next saw the military policemen that you can recall?
A In the bedroom, in the master bedroom.
Q In the master bedroom you observed MP Mica, I understand?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Was there any other MP's with you at that time that you recall seeing?
A MP Tevere was in there. I don't recall exactly where he was at that time, but he was in there somewhere.
Q He was in the master bedroom?
A Right, sir.
Q The other MP's you have no idea where they were at that particular time, and had no awareness of where they were at that particular time?
A That's correct.
Q Now you described a little while ago that you saw Mrs. MacDonald lying on her back. Where was she?
A She was in the master bedroom.
Q Was she on the bed?
A No, sir, she was on the floor.
Q On the floor?
A Right, sir.
Q Did you have occasion to take note of how far inside of the room she was, that is with reference to the door that leads to the hallway? How far was her body from that door?
A The only thing I could do would estimate that as I didn't take any accurate measurement.
Q Would you give us you best judgment then in that regard?
A I wound say she was about seven or eight feet.
Q That would be that portion of her foot that was nearest to the doorway?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now what exactly did you observe as you came into that room and first became aware that there were persons in that room? What are the first things that you observed or saw about those people?
A The first thing I noticed was Mrs. MacDonald.
Q And what did you observe about her condition or the way she was arranged on the floor?
A I just noticed that she was in pretty bad shape.
Q And you describe it as in that fashion from the sight of all the blood in or about her person, I assume?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What exactly did you observe Captain MacDonald doing at that time?
A Mica was helping Captain Macdonald at this time.
Q This is unclear to me as to exactly where the Captain was and where Mr. Mica was and what fashion was the help that he rendered?

COLONEL ROCK: Try to be a little a little bit more specific, Lieutenant Paulk. If you see blood or you see wounds and so forth, go ahead and describe it the best you can.

A Yes, sir. The Captain was lying beside his wife and Mica, as I recall was -- had his arms around the back of Captain MacDonald, and was attempting to assist him. They were both next to the bed.

MR. SEGAL: May I ask for a leave at this time, Colonel Rock, to make a rough sketch of the room so that we may have Lieutenant Paulk mark it?

COLONEL ROCK: Affirmative. It would be most appropriate. Do we have paper on which we can draw a diagram to make a permanent record?

MR. SEGAL: I think, Colonel Rock, that we have available a whole house diagram.

COLONEL ROCK: You may use that.

MR. SEGAL: On this may we have Lieutenant Paulk perhaps outline the position that he recalls seeing the persons which may be some assistance.

COLONEL ROCK: The paper being shown is similar to the diagram on Government Exhibit Number One. A copy of this is in the hands of counsel for the defense. Do you have a copy for the counsel for the accused -- a copy for the government?

(A copy was furnished Captain Somers.)

Q Lieutenant Paulk, if you would be good enough to look at this diagram and indicate whether or not it appears to be generally similar to the -- first of all the large diagram you have examined here this morning, and secondly whether it appears to be similar to the layout of the house at 544 Castle Drive?
A Yes, it does.
Q Now may I ask that you'd be good enough to take first a blue marking pencil, and a red marking pencil rather and if you would try and indicate the figure of Mrs. MacDonald in about the best you can -- the position she was lying, and then a blue marking pencil and indicate the position of Captain MacDonald as you recall being assisted by Mr. Mica.
A All right, sir. Mrs. MacDonald was about right here I would say.
Q If you will mark an appropriate stick figure, I think that may help us, indicating a circle for the head, where it was, and the feet and arms.
A I am not sure that I recall the exact angle that she was lying.
Q We except this as an approximation. Do the best you can so that we can have, perhaps, some point of reference as to where Captain MacDonald was, reference to where Mrs. MacDonald was, would you be good enough to write your name at the side of this, please, and mark the date July the 6th, 1970?

(The witness did as directed. The diagram was shown to Captain Somers and handed to Colonel Rock.)

COLONEL ROCK: Now the red indicates what?

MR. SEGAL: Mrs. MacDonald.

COLONEL ROCK: And the blue?

MR. SEGAL: Mr. MacDonald.

COLONEL ROCK: This will be entered into evidence as Counsel for the Accused Exhibit Number 4.

Q Now, Lieutenant Paulk, you indicated by that diagram that Captain MacDonald was on the floor within a close distance to his wife. How far apart would you say they actually were?
A They were less than a foot.
Q Less than a foot. And when you observed Mr. Mica helping him, was Mr. Mica helping him come to an upright or sitting position at that time?
A I don't know whether Mica was attempting to help him come up or whether the Captain was trying to come up and Mica was trying to make him lie still.
Q It did appear to you that Captain MacDonald was attempting to come up or be brought up into a sitting or upright position?
A Correct, sir.
Q What did you observe about Captain MacDonald's condition at that time?
A He didn't look -- he didn't look well.
Q Was that the conclusion you arrived at because of the blood that you saw coming from a number of wounds.
A I didn't see any of Captain MacDonald's wounds.
Q You didn't see any wounds at all?
A I don't recall seeing any.
Q What is it that caused you to arrive at the conclusion that he didn't look well?
A Well, he was extremely, or seemed to be extremely upset and he was talking and what he was saying, I don't recall his exact words or anything, but he seemed rather, rather upsetting tone of voice.
Q Is it fair to assume that during your period of military service you've had some courses in first aid?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And in some course of that instruction, you had the occasion to be told about shock and visual conditions that constitute shock?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Based upon the observation that you made of Captain MacDonald that morning when you were there, is it fair to say that you had formed the opinion that Captain MacDonald was suffering from shock?

CPT SOMERS: I object. I don't think this witness is competent to draw that conclusion, even in the face of his first aid classes.

COLONEL ROCK: Objection overruled on the basis of the fact that there are some general facts that are taught in first aid which do in fact give indication of shock. This witness is not giving expert advice but that of a layman who should as an Army Officer have general knowledge of those facts.

A Would you please give me the question again?
Q Yes, certainly. Based upon that information you received in military first aid courses, and based upon what you saw about Captain MacDonald's condition, would it be fair to conclude that you thought he had all the symptoms of a person in shock?
A I wouldn't say all, sir, but I would say he had some symptoms of a person in shock.
Q Now let me ask you this -- did you also arrive at the conclusion at that time that his speech, as far as you were concerned, was incoherent?
A As far as being able to understand his words, I could understand his words, but knowing what he was talking about was -- was where the -- where I would say was rather incoherent as far as incomplete sentences and thoughts, so to speak, I would say.
Q Then is it fair to say that you concluded that he was on the verge of becoming incoherent?
A Yes, I thought so.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, did you have occasion to give a witness statement to Criminal Investigator George Ellis on February the 18th, 1970 with regards to observations on the night of February 17th?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Now let me show you a document and ask you whether you can identify this as a photostat of something that you may have seen before?
A It looks like my statement.
Q It looks like your statement of February 18th, 1970? Do you want to see it, Mr. Somers?

(CPT Somers shook his head in the negative.)

Q For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, I ask you, please, to look at the top of the second page of this statement and the first four sentences there, and ask whether after reading that statement, it refreshes your recollection in any fashion in regard to your opinion as to what symptoms Captain MacDonald exhibited with regard to shock?
A Would you like for me to read it?
Q Why don't you read it to yourself first and tell me whether it refreshes your recollection?
A Yes, it does.
Q Having looked at the statement, what is your recollection as to the symptoms that Captain MacDonald manifested that morning as far as your understanding of shock?

COLONEL ROCK: May I interject here for a moment? Is it counsel's intention to enter that as evidence?

MR. SEGAL: No, sir, I only offered it to the witness for the purpose of seeing whether reading this file, statement, whether his recollection was now contemporaneously refreshed. It is my understanding that Lt. Paulk feels that having read the statement, his recollection is now perhaps altered in some fashion. I wish to ask him in that regard.

COLONEL ROCK: So this court will not actually receive this statement as evidence itself. Okay.

A You asked about some of the symptoms I saw?
Q No, I think I asked you a few minutes ago whether it was fair to conclude that Captain MacDonald had all the symptoms of shock and your initial answer to me was that you didn't think he had all the symptoms, he had some of them. Is that a fair statement of what you said a few minutes ago?
A Yes.
Q Now bear with me, please. I have now shown you a statement that you gave to Criminal Investigator Ellis on the day after this incident and ask you upon rereading this statement whether it does not refresh your recollection with regard to what your observations were about Captain MacDonald's condition. I believe you also answered yes.
Now my question, again, to you at this point is, is it fair to say that you felt on February 17th that Captain MacDonald was manifesting what you thought were all the symptoms of shock at that time?
A All that I knew, yes, sir, all that I knew. The symptoms -- I didn't feel like -- I didn't know whether he was in shock or not, but he had the symptoms that I knew of or what I recognized as being what I thought was shock, or a person going into shock.
Q Now what did Captain MacDonald say to you, about what subjects was he talking that you were able to understand?
A The main thing that Captain MacDonald asked about was what was the condition of his children.
Q And did he ask you that on one or more occasions?
A Yes, he did.
Q Is it fair to say the several times he kept asking the same question over again, how are the children?
A How are my kids.
Q How are my kids?
A Yes, it would be fair to say that.
Q And what about Mrs. MacDonald? Did he say anything about her at this time?
A The only thing that I remember Captain MacDonald saying about his wife -- one of the times when he was up, at least in partial upright position, he said, oh, Jesus Christ, look at my wife.
Q And did you form the opinion that each time that he looked at his wife it had a further emotional shock on Captain MacDonald?
A I think it did.
Q And is it fair to say that each time Captain MacDonald looked at his wife he -- you felt he was becoming less and less coherent?
A Yes.
Q Is it fair to say, Lieutenant Paulk, that Captain MacDonald was expressing more concern about the condition of his wife and his children than he was over his own injuries?

A Yes, sir.
Q Did he indicate to either you or the other MP's who were there in the room that they should stop worrying about him, but look after his children?
A I seem to recall something like that, I'm not sure of it though.
Q Now did you ever have occasion to come in contact with Mrs. MacDonald's body, taking her pulse, or having any other physical contact with her body?
A No, sir.
Q You made certain visual observations which caused you to conclude that there was nothing to do at that time?
A Correct, sir.
Q Do you know whether, prior to your coming into that master bedroom, Military Policemen, either Mica or Tevere, had an occasion to touch the body for the purpose of examining its condition?
A I don't recall either one touching the body.
Q However, it is fair to say that both of them were in the room before you got there?
A For a few seconds, yes.
Q Now did you observe a wound on Mrs. MacDonald's stomach?
A No.
Q Where did you observe wounds on her?
A I don't ever actually remember seeing a wound, a hole in the body or anything of that nature. I remember seeing blood on her face and head.
Q Did you see any portions of her body other than her extremities or legs beneath her knees, or arms below the elbow exposed?
A I am not sure.
Q Now Lieutenant Paulk, did you have occasion to observe the bed that was in the master bedroom?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what, if anything did you observe about that bed?
A I noticed the writing on the headboard, and I noticed the wet spot just off center on the sheet that was on the bed.
Q Now addressing yourself first to the writing on the headboard, what was it that you observed there?
A I observed the word -- the word pig -- written sideways.
Q When you say sideways, do you mean that the letter P was parallel to the top of the headboard?
A Yes.
Q So that the letter G would have been close where the mattress was and the P would have been at the top of the headboard?
A That's correct, sir.
Q And can you indicate to us roughly how large the letters were you are talking about that formed the word pig?
A They were about six -- six to eight inches.
Q Now what about the bed? What was it that you noticed there?
A I noticed the wet spot just off center on the right hand side of the bed facing the bed from the foot, to the right -- the right center.
Q You say a wet spot -- did it have any coloration to it?
A No, not that I could determine.
Q It did not appear to you to be blood?
A Oh, no.
Q All right, now what is it that you did after you made these observations?
A Well, a lot of these observations -- most all of the observations I was thinking, that I was thinking at the time, I took notes on some of the things that I had observed.
Q Then you subsequently, I gather, left the master bedroom and headed out the door, down the hallway, and ultimately ended up in the first bedroom. Is that correct?
A Right, we -- all went out of the master bedroom --
Q Yes.
A -- Down the hallway, to the left to the front bedroom, I think it says.
Q Now when you came out of the master bedroom now, and you left --
A I didn't enter the front bedroom --
Q When you left the master bedroom, you left Mr. Mica and Mr. Tevere there. Is that right?
A Right.
Q And then you came out into the hallway heading toward the next bedroom as you observed. Did you become aware of the presence of other military police personnel or other people being in that building?
A No, there were no military policemen from the master bedroom down towards the living room at that time.
Q Did you observe into the living room as to who was there, or how many people were there?
A Well, there was no one in the living room at that time, at the time I was going down the hallway inspecting the other rooms.
Q How could you be so certain of that?
A Because I was heading in the direction of the living room and I would have know if anyone had passed me by because I didn't enter the children's bedroom as I was in the hallway.
Q Well, I gather you stopped and looked into each of the doorways of the next two bedrooms.
A That's correct.
Q Looking at the diagram of the house, it does occur to me that persons standing to the left or right of the entrance to that room might not be in your line of view. Am I correct?
A Correct, if you weren't in the living room, if you were in the hallway.
Q So, what I am asking you -- so, when you came out of the master bedroom you came to the front bedroom?
A Right.
Q At that point, you didn't observe anyone in your line of view in the living room. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q But you weren't as certain whether at that point there persons in the living room who might have been out of your line of view in either sides of the living room, which would have not been readily visible to you at that junction?
A I was -- the way -- maybe I can answer you by saying I was able to ascertain that there was no one in there. When I looked in the children's bedrooms I didn't go in. I was sort of half in the hallway and half in the bedroom. I looked in each one of them, very quick glances, and then I moved into the living room, where there was no one, and into the kitchen at this time.
Q May I ask you, how you made your observation of the second two bedrooms, the front bedroom and the rear bedroom? By what fashion were you able to observe what was going on in those rooms?
A I looked in the doorway of each bedroom.
Q What about the lighting conditions?
A The lighting conditions were -- there were no lights on in those rooms.
Q Did you have a flashlight or any other instrument by which you were able to see what was actually transpiring in those rooms?
A No.
Q There was no lights on, I gathered from what you are saying, in the front bedroom. Is that correct? You were making your observations by a light in the hallway some place?
A A light in the master bedroom, I believe.
Q And what sort of light, by the way, was there on in the master bedroom? Ceiling light, lamp, or floor lamp, or --
A As I recall, the light was -- it was -- it was not a shadowed type of light. I don't know where the light was coming from at this time, but I assume since it wasn't a shadowed typed of light, like from a lamp or something, it must have been possibly an overhead light, or some large type of light fixture. I don't know.
Q When you originally came to the house and tried to get through the entrance of the front door, you didn't observe any lights on at that time, did you?
A No, I did not.
Q You were, however, in a position from the front door to have seen any light in the bedroom if one had been on at that time?
A Well, the blinds were closed and I assume if there had been a light on in the bedroom I could have seen the light around the edges of the blinds.
Q What kind of blinds were they -- Venetian or ordinary?
A Venetian.
Q And at the time you came to the front door you did not observe any light coming from the bedroom and concluded, I assume, that there was no light on at that time, when you came to the front door?
A When I came to the front door, correct.
Q How about the living room? What lights, if any, were on in the living room at that time?
A There was some light in the -- in that area, but I don't know where it was coming from, but it was a dim light.
Q Was that light on when you originally came to the house before you were in the other room, and the military police made their entry into the house?
A I don't know.
Q All right, now after you looked at these two rooms, in what you characterize as brief glances, what did you do?
A Well, I started to check out the living room, the dining room and the kitchen.
Q I gather that you went to the living room after you came from the master bedroom, looked in the front and rear bedrooms, that you then went to the living room?
A That's right.
Q Now when you came into the living room, who did you observe there?
A No one.
Q There was no one in the living room at that time?
A Not at that time.
Q Was there anyone in the dining room area or the kitchen area?
A No.
Q Did you make an adjustment in the lights or turn on in any fashion?
A No.
Q Right, now, you were in the living room. What did you do there? Other than to observe that there was no one else there at that point?
A This was a very short period of time. At this particular time I -- as I recall, or somewhere around this time, I began taking notes.
Q And you indicated when you were standing in the living room, you think that you may have made some written observations of what you had seen that evening?
A That's correct.
Q After you had made some notes, what did you do then?
A I walked -- made the notes for the rooms, but I told the -- most of the MP's -- I don't know whether it was at this time or not, but I began telling them, don't touch anything, don't move anything. If you are not doing anything, get out. If you want to stay in here, don't move, and just leave everything alone.
Q Well, where were these various MP's that you were giving instructions to, and when did they come into the house?
A I think at that time I was talking to -- I don't recall for sure but I, as I remember, there was some military police in the parents' bedroom and in the hallway.
Q How had they come into the building?
A From the rear door.
Q The same door you had come in?
A Right.
Q Well, the last I understood, you were in the bedroom with Tevere and Mica.
A Right.
Q You then left, went and checked the front and rear bedrooms and then proceeded to the living room. Is that right?
A Right.
Q Now what I want to know is how and when did other military police and yourself, Tevere and Mica, come into that house?
A Well, the other military policemen I don't know exactly when they came in. It was not very long, and they came in through the rear door at this particular time, and I don't know how many military policemen there was. I don't think there was a great number; as far as I know, that I can recall right now, the driver came in at that time.
Q That would be Mr. Dickerson?
A Right.
Q Now Dickerson came through which entrance to the building?
A He would have come through the rear entrance. I didn't see him come into the rear entrance.
Q As a matter of fact, isn't he the person who unlocked the front door of the house to permit other personnel to come in?
A As I recall, he was.
Q Now at that time, at that point you had Dickerson in the house, yourself, Mica, and Tevere, and I wonder if you'd indicate to us who the other military policemen that you recall seeing were who were in the house at that point?
A The only two I recall are Sergeant Hagney and Tevere, other than the ones I have already mentioned.
Q How about Sergeant Caldwell?
A He was there.
Q Did you ever --
A I don't know whether he was in at this time. He was in there.
Q Did you make an inventory list of the names of the military policemen who were inside the house while you were there?
A Not me personally.
Q Well, did someone make it that you were aware of?
A I'm certain that there may be a list or something of all persons in the area, that made up the shift or something. But you see, I don't know for sure. I assume that they have them.
Q At some point did Captain MacDonald give some information to one of the military policemen as to what had transpired in the house that night or that morning?
A Yes, he did.
Q At what point did that happen?
A It was fairly -- fairly soon after I checked, checked out the other area and was in the living room taking notes. It was not too long a period of time after that.
Q Were you present when Captain MacDonald gave certain information about what had happened at his house at that time?
A No.
Q Where was he at that time? Was he still in the master bedroom?
A Yes.
Q And was the person who was talking to Captain MacDonald at that time, a military policeman named Mica?
A I don't know, I assume it was.
Q All right, who, in fact, reported to you that Captain MacDonald had given certain information about four persons?
A Sergeant Tevere.
Q Sergeant Tevere? All right, tell us what happened at that point.
A I don't recall exactly for sure. I remember putting the information on the air, and I don't know exactly when I did it. The information was put on the air at some time and I don't exactly remember when that was.
Q The question, however, is can you now indicate to the investigating officer what the nature of the information that you broadcast, that you had reason to believe that was given by Captain MacDonald?
A Yes, I believe I can remember. Captain MacDonald, I assume through Mica and then from Mica to Tevere and then from Tevere to me, gave a description involved one female --
Q Of what race?
A Caucasian, and three other males, and I believe, I'm not certain, I think one of them was a male Negro.
Q You are indicating to the best of your recollection now the information that you received was that the people in the MacDonald house were the victims of an assault by a group of four persons. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And that the four persons were described to military policemen there and then relayed to you as having been one female Caucasian, two male Caucasians and one male Negro?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Now when you received that information what did you do?
A I think I went to the car and put it on the air to all patrols.
Q And what was the message that was put on the air?
A To be on the lookout. I recall that there was some difficulty as to the exact persons, assailants and I don't recall -- right now I don't recall exactly what it was. We put a description on the air that approximated what Captain MacDonald, the description that he gave up, but there was some discrepancy.
Q There's no question in your mind that this message was put out that they were looking for three males and one white female?
A That's correct.
Q And these persons were wanted for investigation in connection with the assault and murder of various individuals at the MacDonald house?
A That wasn't put on the air.
Q What was it that you were telling the various patrols they should look for or why they should look for this group of persons?
A I did not -- my radio in my car is not of the type that I could talk to all patrols. Most of the time I can, but some of the time, I can't. So I called the desk and gave them the description and told them to repeat it over the main radio net.
Q And they were to repeat what instructions or information -- the information as to what the military policemen heard?
A I don't know. I don't recall.
Q Do you remember giving Sergeant Boulware any other information on any explanation that he should in turn repeat or have repeated to all patrols?
A I could have possibly, but I don't recall.
Q Well is it fair to understand that the purpose of such a message was to alert the patrols to stop and check out any group of persons resembling the four that we've been talking about this morning?
A Yes, it's fair.
Q Now you have no information that the people you had described as to the type of clothing they had on, had you?
A Not at this time.
Q So therefore it was a possibility, certainly a consideration that they might have been persons who were civilians on the Fort Bragg reservation at that time?
A Yes, sir, there was some consideration.
Q How many roads are there that lead off of Fort Bragg that are accessible to civilian vehicles?
A Roads or entrances?
Q Entrances.
A Four, I would say. I believe there are four.
Q Well, what is the main road?
A The main entrance, Bragg Boulevard.
Q What are the other three?
A Yadkin Road, Manchester -- and Manchester Road.
Q Then there are two other entrances?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now there exists for the military police who are assigned to Fort Bragg an alert plan that could close off these roads for the purpose of conducting an investigation, is there not?
A I don't recall any specific alert plan that we have, but we can close off the roads. I'm certain that there is some alert plan somewhere but I have never seen it.
Q Did you at anytime issue such an order or instructions that the roads leading off Fort Bragg either be closed or placed under strict surveillance for the purpose of looking for a group of four people?
A I think that I -- that the -- I'm not sure about this at all, because I remember the radio operator saying something to the fact that he posted patrols at the exits, but I am not at all sure about this.
Q Who would have been the person that we are talking about that might have made the statement?
A I mentioned it to someone. I don't know whether it was while I was at the scene or any other time. I don't know.
Q Might I suggest to you that you had some conversation with Sergeant Caldwell of the military police in regard to the desirability of posting the entrances and exits of Fort Bragg reservation?
A I possibly did. I'm not sure. I remember talking about it, talking to someone about it.
Q And would you agree or disagree if I were to suggest to you that the fact that Sergeant Caldwell proposed that the exits be placed under surveillance, and that at that time you declined to issue such an order?
A I never have -- there's nothing -- Sergeant Caldwell and I didn't have a conversation like that, of a nature where he advised me that I should do this or do that.
Q I didn't mean that he advised you. I asked you whether or not it was not suggested to you by Sergeant Caldwell that an alert be placed and all the entrances and exits to Fort Bragg reservation be placed under surveillance by military police to look for a group of four people, and I suggest to you that in fact that you declined to follow through on that idea at that time.
A I don't recall. I don't know.
Q Did you ever have that type of conversation with any other military policemen if you don't believe it was Sergeant Caldwell on the morning of February 17th?

CPT SOMERS: I object. I recognize that our proceedings here are lax; however, this is way outside the scope of any direct examination, and the relevance is tenuous at best.

COLONEL ROCK: Would counsel for the defense --

MR. SEGAL: Yes, certainly. The only reason that I understand this proceeding is in existence at this moment is that the government has chosen to disregard the statements made by the accused, the fact that there were this group of four persons, and the fact that the government is going on the theory the fact that the accused is responsible for the incidents that took place here, it is our suggestion to the court and to the investigating officer that in fact the government had an opportunity to take steps that might have resulted in the apprehension of the persons as was suggested by the defendant, but that in fact the government did not act properly on that suggestion, and did not act in a fashion which would have perhaps culminated in a different type of proceedings that's here; and we propose during the course of these hearings, I think, to establish the suggestion that I have put to Lt. Paulk was in fact made to him.

CPT SOMERS: May I respond to that, sir?


CPT SOMERS: The point is entirely irrelevant. The accused is here faced by a charge to be investigated that he in fact was the perpetrator of these crimes. The government is charged now with showing some evidence that leads to that conclusion. Evidence which would lead to some kind of conclusion that the military police might or might not have done further investigation on some other lead is irrelevant. What's relevant is what evidence do we have concerning this particular accused.

MR. SEGAL: It is my understanding, Colonel, that the assignment of the military police Criminal Investigation Division was to investigate this tragedy that took place, and it is our suggestion to you, and in fact there is evidence, that they pursued the line of inquiry that resulted in the accusation against the Captain because in a sense they lost the proper opportunity that might very well have sustained the position he took from the beginning that these killings were the results of the activities of a group of four persons that have been described. I think nothing can be more relevant than the fact an attempt might have been made that would have verified his version of this case as opposed to the government's theory.

CPT SOMERS: Sir, the military police and the CID are not on trial here. In fact the question is to investigate the charges against Captain MacDonald. Now if there is evidence which leads to a proper conclusion, and if we present that evidence, fine. If the evidence that the government presents does not lead to that conclusion, also fine. But any extraneous or different activities of the CID are in fact irrelevant as to whether the government does or does not have evidence to indicate that the accused is the perpetrator of these crimes.

COLONEL ROCK: Any further argument?

CPT SOMERS: I have no further argument, sir.

MR. SEGAL: No further argument by counsel for the accused.

COLONEL ROCK: Your objection is overruled. Proceed.

Q The question, Lt. Paulk, did you ever have a conversation with any military policemen, either Sergeant Caldwell or any of the others, in which one of these military policemen suggested that roadblocks be established around Fort Bragg, and that you declined at that time to follow through on that suggestion?
A At some time we discussed the feasibility of roadblocks and whether I declined or not is uncertain, with the advantage of hindsight, I would have set up a roadblock. Now whether they were set up or not is another thing, because the radio operator explained to me later on that when he obtained the description that he posted at the gates or something to that effect. I'm not -- I can't be at all sure about that.
Q May I ask you who the radio operator was that you are referring to?
A I don't know.
Q Well, would that have been an operator who had a regular tour of duty that we now could check out, and establish who that was?
A I assume you could check out to see who the radio operator was that night. One of the patrols is bound to know.
Q Does the radio room for the Fort Bragg military police contain an automatic tape recording device for all messages broadcast and received?
A Yes, it does.
Q So in fact if the radio operator ever did broadcast a message to set up roadblocks that would be contained on the tapes for the evening and the morning of February 17th, 1970?
A It certainly would.
Q Do you recall talking to Sergeant Robert J. Duffy of the military police about the question of roadblocks?
A No.
Q I beg your pardon?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you recall seeing Sergeant Duffy at all on the scene of Castle Drive that morning?
A I'm not sure.
Q Do you know who Sergeant Duffy is?
A Yes, I do.
Q Now at some point someone sent a direction that ambulances be brought to Castle Drive address. Who did that?
A I don't know how many people did it, or the exact circumstances. I did it one time.
Q When did that happen?
A Pretty soon after -- I asked for ambulances right after I saw the people.
Q Well, as I gather the chronology you have given us this morning, you came into the house through the rear door, went to the master bedroom, and did certain things there, came out, looked into the front and rear bedrooms, then went into the living room, and possibly the kitchen, made some written notes and that is where the chronology that I understand ended. Now I want to know if you can by extending that chronology tell us when and how you at least made any other communications with particular attention to the matter of an ambulance.
A All right. The exact chronology is contained in my written statement, and I'm not exactly sure that I am following it because I haven't been familiarized with my written statement recently.
Q Would you care to refresh your recollection?
A That would be all right with me.

(Witness referred to a document handed to him by Mr. Segal.)

A I called for ambulances and the CID right after I got there.
Q To the living room?
A Well, let's see. I called for the ambulances right after I ascertained how many victims there were and just made a real quick idea of what the situation was.
Q May I suggest to you that what happened was when you went looking at the front and rear bedrooms, you then went into the living room and you made certain notes for yourself. Are you in agreement up to that point?
A I am in agreement. I am not exactly sure about the chronology, but I am in agreement in some of the basic things that I was doing.
Q Well, the chronology maybe of somewhat importance and I would like for you to search your memory, if you would, please, and tell us what you did after you looked into the other bedrooms and then went into the living room?
A I believe at this time, although I am not exactly sure, I believe that's when Dickerson came by and opened the door and then I zipped out the front door and called, I believe.
Q You say you called. Now what call did you make at that time?
A I asked for ambulances, for three ambulances, three or four ambulances.
Q Was that by radio?
A Yes.
Q Then what?
A And I asked them to hurry up with the CID.
Q And then after you made that call, what did you do?
A I went back inside.
Q And where did you go?
A I believe I was just covering the area insuring that nobody was bothering or touching anything, and at the same time taking notes as I was walking.
Q When you went outside you made this call for the ambulance, did you then stay outside for any particular purpose or reason, or did you go inside the house for any particular purpose or reason?
A I went inside. I didn't stay outside. I went back inside just to see, make sure that no one was bothering anything, and that everything was progressing the way it ought to with the Captain MacDonald.
Q Did you make the radio call from your own vehicle?
A I don't recall. I think I did.
Q Now when you came out, how many military police vehicles and other official vehicles were outside?
A I don't know.
Q Is it fair to say there was more than there had been when you first pulled up to the house, then just two other vehicles besides your own?
A Yes.
Q And were there other military police personnel and other official personnel in and about the outside of the house at that time while you were making the radio call?
A I don't recall.
Q Did you see any of them going into or coming out of the MacDonald house?
A Is the question, do I recall anybody specifically going in or about the house at that time?
Q Not by name, but did you see any personnel who were in or about the MacDonald house, go in or come out of the house, while you were making this radio call?
A No, I don't recall seeing anyone.
Q How about when -- is it Private Dickerson?
A Specialist Four.
Q Specialist Dickerson --
A He was my driver at this time. He drives shifts.
Q When he unlocked the front door of the MacDonald house, wasn't there other policemen who were outside there and were then admitted into the house by the opening of the front door?
A There were some military policemen outside and they did come in.
Q They came in when Specialist Dickerson unlocked the front door?
A Right.
Q About how many were there?
A I don't know.
Q Did you see what they did or where they went when they came in the front door?
A Yes, I remember, I don't recall how many or who, or whether it was one or two or three. One went down the hall.
Q In which direction would that be?
A Down the hallway towards the master bedroom, and I believe he went down there to assist Mica in whatever he was doing.
Q In other words, it could have been more than one?
A I don't know.
Q Now that incident of the opening of the front door by Specialist Dickerson took place before you went out to make your radio call for the ambulances?
A I believe it did.
Q So that actually when you went to make that radio call, you left an undefined number of police personnel inside the MacDonald house?
A That's correct.
Q It at least included Mica, Tevere, Dickerson your driver and the one or more people that went back to help Mica with Captain MacDonald in the master bedroom?
A Correct.
Q At that point did you see either Sergeant Hagney or Caldwell in or about the house?
A I don't recall.
Q How about Sergeant Duffy?
A I don't recall.
Q You told us earlier this morning that you had given some kind of instruction for the military policemen to stay away from certain portions of the living room.
A Um-hum.
Q Were there in fact military policemen in there before you went out to make your radio call to the ambulances?
A I don't think I said this morning I gave instructions to stay away from the living room, or certain areas in the living room. I just said I gave instructions to stay away from the living room.
Q All right, we'll take that characterization. Did you give that instruction before you went out to make the radio call for ambulances?
A I don't recall.
Q All right, when you came back into the house after having made the radio call, were you of the impression that there were now several more people in and about the scene assisting with what ever investigatory work or police work that had to be done there?
A There weren't what I considered an excessive number of people. There were more people than there was when I went out.
Q I wasn't suggesting that it was excessive. All I was asking is were there -- did you get the impression without taking a head count that when you came back in after making the radio call there were now additional personnel who were arriving on the scene undergoing, undertaking certain activities inside the MacDonald house?
A Yes I did. I got that impression.
Q Okay, now when you came back in what did you do at that time?
A I think I went back -- I am not sure about this, but I think I went back and supervised the area to make sure -- I'm trying to keep everything straight, no disturbance or anything by -- by this.
Q Can you be a little bit helpful about the lights, the lighting condition of the living room and the kitchen?
A I'm not -- I can tell you the lighting conditions, but I'm not real sure about where the light came from, although I seem to recall, and I'm not sure about this, but I think there was a light on in the kitchen. No, the kitchen light wasn't, I don't believe, but there was some light in that area.
Q In the living room, kitchen area, what we are talking about?
A Right.
Q And is it correct to say that at best it was a dim light?
A It was a dim light.
Q Was that light coming from a single source as opposed to several different places in the room?
A I think it was coming from a single source. I didn't actually see -- remember exactly where it was coming from, but it wasn't the type of light where it just flooded all over the place which you could see real well.
Q On the basis of that lighting condition, as you best recall, you would not make a definite statement, would you, as to what track marks, foot prints, wet spots there were in the living room, kitchen, and dining room area?
A I think I could say pretty close exactly what, where I think that the maximum amount of traffic might have been, as far as if anything was disturbed, the only thing I think would have been the edge, the corner of that carpet and when you come in the door there.
Q Would you indicate to the investigating officer, please, how you were able to make those observations on the basis of what you recall to be a dim light from a single source without the aid of any flashlight or any other light?
A Well, I could see the carpet. That's all there is to it. I could see the carpet.
Q Excuse me. What color was the carpet, sir?
A I don't recall.
Q Why don't you recall?
A I don't know.
Q Was it light or dark?
A I don't recall.
Q And for that reason, you don't recall if it was sufficient light to show as to what the true color was of the carpet. Isn't it fair to say that?
A No I wouldn't say that. I remember looking at the carpet. I don't recall the color of it but I remember looking at the carpet. I remember seeing grass on the carpet.
Q You remember seeing grass. What I am asking you again, Lieutenant Paulk, on the basis of the lighting conditions of the existing -- considering the size of the room, the origin of the light was from a single source, can you indicate to me how you could state with certainty that you were able to observe all the places of noticeable traffic, whether there was dampness or grass without the aid of any flashlight or any additional light?
A The light was sufficient in my opinion, it was sufficient, that I could see the room enough to tell its general makeup, well enough to see -- that I could see the grass, the blades of grass and the grass particles on the floor, on the carpet.
Q Would you concede that it would be more difficult to observe a wet spot on a dark carpet than it would be on a light carpet?
A I concede to that, yes.
Q And then without knowing therefore whether the carpet was a light carpet or a dark carpet would you want to reserve any judgment as to whether you were able to see all the areas which might have had areas of wetness on it?

CPT SOMERS: I object. He's answered this question several times.

MR. SEGAL: I might say, sir, that Lieutenant Paulk has given his conclusion. What we want to explore with him is the basis for the conclusion.

COLONEL ROCK: Objection overruled.

A Would you give me the question again?
Q The question was, would you want to reserve any conclusion that you are certain you made all the observations of the wet places and the unusual markings on the floor in view of the limitations of your ability to observe at that time?
A There were areas in the living room, dining room, kitchen area, that I assume -- but I am not sure -- that I could not see, because of one thing or another, either furniture, over in the corner, or either I didn't want to walk across the carpet so that nothing would be disturbed again. I did not walk around the -- in the center area of the living room in an effort to avoid upsetting anything that might be. So therefore, in that context, yes, I may have missed a wet spot or something of that nature; simply I could not walk over there or did not want to walk over there.
Q What was it you were looking for on the floor?
A I was just looking for anything that might be found that would be relative, that wouldn't normally be there.
Q And you considered the wet spots and the grass on the floor to be foreign matter?
A I would.
Q You were, of course, aware at that point and several of the military policemen had come through the room having walked on the wet grass out side?
A Yes.
Q Now were you looking for any mud or dirt on the floor?
A Not specifically, not specifically.
Q And it would be rather difficult to see any soil on the floor under the lighting conditions you described?
A You could see where the carpet -- or boots, where my boots included, had walked over the carpet. You could see the dirt.
Q How about civilian shoes? Do you think they would have made the same type impressions?
A Civilian shoes?
Q Yes, sir.
A I assume they would have.
Q You assume?
A Well, some boots have ripple soles on them.
Q They also have civilian shoes with smooth leather soles. Were you under the impression at that time that you could make observations of the soil or the grass or the foreign matter that came from civilian shoes under the lighting conditions you've described?
A I couldn't tell if I was in the room whether the piece of foreign matter came from a civilian shoe or a boot or what.

COLONEL ROCK: Let me ask a question to clarify something in my mind Lieutenant Paulk, during this pause in the questioning. I understood that you observed foreign matter on the floor when you first entered the living room and prior to any MP's coming into that room. Is that correct?

A No, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: You did not observe foreign matter until after MP's were in there?

A I am not sure what is foreign matter, sir.

COLONEL ROCK: Well, the strange material that you saw on the carpet. When did you see it first?

A When I first noted it? It was after the MP's had entered.

COLONEL ROCK: After the MP's had entered. Thank you.

Continued questions by MR. SEGAL:

Q Did you at any time observe persons other than those who were in either fatigues or khakis in the MacDonald house that night?
A I don't recall. I sort of half way remember a medic there that wasn't in uniform but I am not sure at all about this.
Q You did in fact see some medics in the MacDonald house?
A Oh, yes, I did.
Q And how were they dressed?
A It would be hard for me to say how they were dresses because I know that all medics or most medics go around in whites.
Q In white orderly jackets of some sort?
A As far as I remember the ones I -- the main ones I remember were in the ones who carried Captain MacDonald out, down the hallway and passed me, and they were wearing whites. As I remember, they were wearing whites.
Q Including white pants?
A Yes, sir, as far as I remember, as I recall.
Q You have an impression, I gather, from what you are saying, of at least a medic who seemed to you to be out of uniform?
A Sort of an impression, but I can't exactly picture it in my mind.
Q How did you conclude that that person was in fact a medic?
A I seem to remember a white medic jacket under a fatigue coat. You know, the uniform like a medic wears.
Q And what did the pants seem to you to be like?
A I don't recall.
Q They were whites as far as you are concerned?
A No -- well, now, like I say, I'm not so sure. I'm not absolutely sure that I saw this individual -- he seems sort of a hazy area, but I can't fix it now.

COLONEL ROCK: Excuse me. Can counsel indicate approximately how much longer he desires to question? It would perhaps be appropriate to call for a break.

MR. SEGAL: Sir, I think perhaps it would be appropriate to break now. I think we have a number of matters yet to discuss with Lieutenant Paulk.

COLONEL ROCK: All right, this investigation will be recessed until 1:30.

(The hearing recessed at 1205 hours, 6 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1435 hours, 6 July 1970.)

COLONEL ROCK: The Article 32 investigation will come to order.
During the recess it has come to my attention that paragraph 4b, AR 345-60, dated 7 May 1968, prohibits the release of information pertaining to disciplinary actions. I am further informed that the above mentioned army regulation is applicable to these proceedings. Therefore these proceedings will henceforth be closed to the public. However, I wish to inform the counsel for the defense that they may request permission to this rule in accordance with paragraph 4c(3) of the same regulation. In the meantime proceedings will continue in closed session. Therefore all persons except the investigating officer, my legal advisor, counsel for the accused, the accused, and counsel for the government will remove themselves from this hearing room at this time.

MR. SEGAL: May it please the Colonel, I would ask for an additional exception at this time for the mother of the accused, Mrs. MacDonald. It seems to me it would be within the spirit of regulation, even without a specific exception to permit her to be present. We will, of course, in accordance with the suggestion that we have a right to proceed to request an exception. We would ask for a very brief recess so that we may discuss this matter and make a determination after consulting with the accused himself as to what instructions he wishes counsel to proceed under.

COLONEL ROCK: Would you consider fifteen minutes or half an hour to be acceptable?

MR. SEGAL: Fifteen minutes, I think, would be more than adequate, Colonel Rock.

COLONEL ROCK: All right. I will not make a firm decision on the exception that you have mentioned until after the recess. The recess of fifteen minutes is granted.

(The hearing recessed at 1438 hours, 6 July 1970.)

(The hearing opened at 1500 hours, 6 July 1970.)

COLONEL ROCK: The hearing will come to order, and it should be noted that the witness, First Lieutenant, has been excused during this next portion of the hearing.

MR. SEGAL: May it please the investigating officer. Counsel for the accused has had an opportunity to review AR 345-60 in regard to the portion enunciated by the investigating officer in regard to the presence of the public, members of the family, during the course of these Article 32 proceedings. It our position that AR 345-60 is not applicable to these proceedings for a number of reasons, which I would like to state at this time. First and foremost, it does appear on a fair reading of the entire AR that it is intended to prohibit the investigating authorities, such as criminal investigators, and the holders of military records, releasing information about a person accused under military law. Prior to the beginning of any judicial proceedings. However, it does also appear to us that this is not intended to apply to the judicial proceedings in a case and we are satisfied that the Article 32 proceedings in a capital case where a man's life is on trial are the beginning stages of a trial, and that wherein in those proceedings he is, I think, under the interpretation of the Court of Military Appeals in Nichols versus the United States decided in 23 CMR 343 in 1957, the decision of the Court Of Military Appeals that he is at a critical stage of the proceedings which is judicial in nature and therefore he is entitled to have the hearing open, certainly upon his request, which was in fact made in this case.
It seems to us, further, that even assuming for the moment for the purpose of discussion that this is not a judicial proceeding within the meaning of that term, that nevertheless the intent of the Army Regulation here was entirely directed at protecting the rights of an accused from information which might prejudice him; and that the accused has a right to state to the investigating officer in the proceedings that he desires to have these proceedings open; that he is, I think, the one whose rights are at stake here, and if he chooses in a form to waive the so-called protection, that the investigating officer believes the regulation surrounds him with, that he likewise has the right to dispense with that protection where he feels, in fact, it may be a hindrance to his proper defense and a hindrance to the proceedings on his behalf. And so for that reason we think the regulation is not applicable, and for all those reasons we suggest that we either are not covered by the Army Regulation, or it does not apply where the accuse is willing to state to the investigating officer that he waives any so called protection that may stem from this regulation. I may state to you now that I am prepared to offer such a wavier on the record with the assent of the accused that he does wavier the closed proceedings and does, in fact, in contrary, demand open proceedings to be held in which all persons who choose to be here may be represented.

COLONEL ROCK: I have noted your comments, however I reiterate that the AR does specifically prohibit the release of the information and the only recourse I have to suggest, or that I stated earlier, was to inform counsel that you may request permission for an exception to this rule in accordance with paragraph 4c(3) of the cited regulation.

MR. SEGAL: May I inquire of the investigating officer as to the appropriate authority that would respond to, to waive or set aside this position and permit the hearing to be open?

COLONEL ROCK: It would either be my appointing authority in the case, Major General Flanagan, or it would be the Judge Advocate General himself in Washington.

MR. SEGAL: At this time, Colonel Rock, we would request an adjournment of at least approximately fifteen minutes to enable us to make some direct telephone communication with one or the other of those two authorities. And we would reserve, if we may, the right to request a further adjournment, perhaps until tomorrow morning, if we are unable to make telephone contact in this regard.

COLONEL ROCK: The first adjournment is granted. The second one as is necessary.

(The hearing adjourned at 1505 hours, 6 July 1970.)



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